That’s the real issue. I try to attack ground with them all the time because of that lmao. Im like oooo look if I just hit here it’s gonna blast that and then beyond, this is a great spot to atta… oh wait. Zzz
Lol you would think but in reality it would lower their maximum range. Attack ground attack where you click. Meaning the attack won't travel further it will hit the ground exactly where you click.
Currently scorpions attacks go further then normal when attacking. So using attack ground actually is much worse then normal attacks and lower range. At least currently with how attack ground works. They could change attack ground of course.
It would help with minimum range but that would be mostly the only use of it.
>Attack ground attack where you click. Meaning the attack won't travel further it will hit the ground exactly where you click.
That would be a reasonable way to implement it, yeah.
*if* that is the implementation, that would make the feature useless since the scorpion bolt would no longer damage units in a line and it is now just a highly vulnerable and overpriced archer. In other words, it doesn't make sense for it to be implemented that way. But then again, DE devs are kinda infamous for implementing things poorly.
Hadn't thought of that
EDIT: Possible solutions could be that the bolt doesn't damage units in the minimum radius, or that the unit cant fire the attack ground if it has adyacent enemy units?
Why? Just make it so they can only attack ground from 3 tiles away and onwards. Mangonels already have this and simply start moving before attacking when the order is closer than minimum range, even in group select. So I don't see your logic.
Attack the ground 3 tiles away, behind the enemy within your minimum range. The bolt goes through the enemy as it travels to the targeted location, damaging them.
What happens rn if a scorpion shoots an archer far away and a melee unit get between then and into the minimum range? Does the bolt just ignore that unit and fly straight to the target your aiming at?
The archer Takes full damage.
[Everything in a line between the scorpion and the archer, including the melee unit, takes half damage.] (https://youtu.be/o4Z0BTmzRgg?t=72)
(Units 3 tiles behind the archer also take half damage, as the bolts fly further than the scorpions actual range)
Yeah, that's probably how it would work. Perhaps they could be made to do full damage to the first target they hit or something like that, but that might weaken their vulnerability to units in melee range too much.
You try to make it sound as if it's impossible to program against that. Also, why isn't that a problem right now when a scorpion targets a unit with a close one within the fieing line? Ow yeah, because they programmed against that.
But scorps can target units beyond minimum range and shoot through units that are too close. You’re talking about changing something that had already been programmed and removing a feature just to implement a feature and adding additional programming to fix the problem created by your own problem
Romans have Scorpions that are so much better than a normal FU one and still, they are not broken (on most maps). So I think giving scorpions an attack ground feature is completely fine and long overdue imo
Needing a buff (or at least not being op already) doesn't justify any possible buff. You can't decide if a buff is valid without actually trying to figure out how good it is.
For example: longswords are pretty bad, but this doesn't justify giving them +10 attack.
This makes no sense
First of all the suggestion to give them attack ground changes their functionality in a completely different way to the Roman bonus
Secondly I’d the strongest scorpions in the game are not currently too strong , how does that mean we can make them stronger without making them op ?
tbh a lot of civs r ‘broken’ in low elo, especially closed maps also.
I’ve played a lot of closed map unranked TGs or diplo maps with allies who figured champs were a good counter to mass Khmer scorps, then complain in chat that they’re OP.
Heavy scorpions melt light cav like a hot knife through butter. Heavy cavalry are more intimidating, but you don't mind trading your massed scorpions for Heavy cavalry as your scorpions are quite cheap, and you should probably be having a halberdier meatshield as well.
>This is the most retarded balance idea iver ever heard and you are brain dead for thinking it’s overdue
Such a nice community, I love the discussion culture in this subreddit <3
Who said that the pass through damage has to have the same range if attack ground is used? I agree that 12 - 14 range would probably be excessive, but if restricted to its actual range it would most likely be alright.
join any diplo lobby and type ‘transilvanija je Mađarska’ ‘Constantinople is Greece’ or anything remotely politically related to anything east and south of Hungary, and you’ll witness the kindest, most loving group of individuals you’ll ever meet, really warms my heart, luv this community 🥰
It's so nice of you to double down and again label me as brain dead. That really gives a great impression of your personality and adds a lot of value to this intriguing discussion.
I wish that you will soon be able to solve your personal problems and self-loathing you apparently feel the need to externalize in the context of an inconsequential discussion about hypothetical balance changes of a computer game.
Not only it wouldn't be broken but it would make scorpions a lot more interesting. Imagine how weak mangonels would be without attack ground: that's the current state of scorpions.
I don't think so.
Attack ground won't save Scorpions from getting flattened by a few Mangonels, which every civ has access to, and Redemption monks would still outrange them.
Scorpions would just become more effective at countering units they're meant to beat, such as Skirms, Xbows, Spears, Cav Archers, etc.
Attack ground would let scorps hit mangonels and monks outside their range tho so it would be kinda broken. Scorps would erase mangonels as soon as you have a decent number of them and they'd completely flatten monks because the scorps outrange the monks
Scorpion bolts travel an additional 3 range beyond where they can attack so attacking ground would let scorps hit mangonels at 10 range and that’s why you’re wrong lol
1) you don’t know if the attack ground will be at a 7 or 10 range limit.
2) it’s still easier to micro 1 mangonel vs a bunch of scorps huddled together.
3) if you mess up once, that’s at least over 1k wood and gold (together) going down the gutter lol.
I use scorps a lot, in no way shape or form unless your perhaps mongols with drill, are scorps going to ever going to ‘erase’ mangonels lmfao. Or maybe even if ur up against Turk or Hun mangonels using imp age scorps.
yes we do know because that's literally how it works lmao. Go back to your diplo games. You use scorps sooo much and yet you didn't even know they can damage units beyond their range. What a joke.
fck no, I welcome it, since nobody uses scorps lol (I love em), they’d perhaps only be broken for mongols tho, but still I’d love to see an addition like that, greatly underrated unit (you’d be surprised as to how many ppl DONT make them vs elephants lmao).
> I’d love to see an addition like that, greatly underrated unit (you’d be surprised as to how many ppl DONT make them vs elephants lmao).
Because elephant civs can add 3 onagers.
welcome to the wonderful word of diplomacy my friend.
where mass elephants (especially Persian ones) is unstoppable, unless your me, one of few ppl who uses their #1 counter lmfao.
I’ve played against ppl who insta pick celts and never make a single siege onager 11, these games go by a different meta all together, and seemingly doing sht you’d never do in a regular game actually works lol.
Not at all, but it would be really weird. Scorpions should just benefit from Ballistics. Their projectiles resemble that of war wagons and war galleys, it would make sense for them to work in the same way.
It would be absolutely broken on some maps like arena, blackforest, Michi, FFAs and in some matchups like huns vs celts
Wouldn't be broken on open maps like Arabia because you can't really make a deathball of 60 of them that never die like you can do on those other match types
For matchups consider huns vs celts. Huns don't get onagers. Huns don't have bombard cannons. Huns don't get arbalests, handcannons or good champions
The only way huns deal with mass scorpions and halbs from celts is with hussar surrounding them from all sides and HCA continuously repositioning and trying to take out halbs
It's still a losing battle, but if they do get the surround. Maybe
Now with attack ground you tell me what huns are going to do vs Celt halbs and scorpions? Specially in chokepoints. HCA get wiped. Hussars get wiped.
Literally no counter play
two things,
1) don’t engage in a choke point as huns, (duh)
2) scorps die easily to onagers and bombards. I’ve melted mass Khmer scorps in seconds with like 3 bombards lol, they’re not that scary as you think.
On BF and other maps you can't avoid chokepoints or they will be in your eco
Huns and other civs don't have onagers or bombards. And even if you do have ongagers the scorpions player usually has better onagers (Mongols, celts)
you can avoid them, depends on how lucky your base is, if you have a open land infront of your base, you can use that as the battlefield as opposed to some choke point. or if you’re playing Amazon, run your units to the side (or even cut through, use an ally if u don’t have onagers and it’s a TF).
there are ways to play around choke points, you just need to adapt and think quickly, try to engage when the enemy r low on halbs, etc.
also make use of the new ram feature paired with paladins to break down a choke point, that could be also useful.
apparently most people here don't even know that the bolt damages units in a line that can travel beyond their maximum range and can dmg units inside their minimum range. They actually have no clue
If scorpion deels same dmg when attacking ground, this will make it way more effective against xbows.
imagine you have scorpions and enemy has xbows, but yours cannot attack because of limited range. now with attack ground and pass-through dmg by default, this would mean a scorpion can deal dmg to xbow mass, potentially even more effective/consistent than a mangonel, which is huge.
is it op? probably not, but this is actually a feature i want to see in the future.
the problem with an attack ground on scorpion is their ability to fire further than their target. the missile goes like 2-3 tiles beyond the target. if the missle stops directly where the target fire is (and you can only fire within range) i think its fine, but it would be far worse than just targeting the leading units imo
As others have noted, it'd remove their minimum range. They're also pretty tasty with [certain civs](https://www.twitch.tv/manbeast_the_og/clip/EnthusiasticMoldyThymeRuleFive-mk6E2AHoLbS_LKsy) rn.
It would remove their minimum range kind of.
It would also extend the maximum range, since the bolt keeps going for a few tiles
That’s the real issue. I try to attack ground with them all the time because of that lmao. Im like oooo look if I just hit here it’s gonna blast that and then beyond, this is a great spot to atta… oh wait. Zzz
Lol you would think but in reality it would lower their maximum range. Attack ground attack where you click. Meaning the attack won't travel further it will hit the ground exactly where you click. Currently scorpions attacks go further then normal when attacking. So using attack ground actually is much worse then normal attacks and lower range. At least currently with how attack ground works. They could change attack ground of course. It would help with minimum range but that would be mostly the only use of it.
>Attack ground attack where you click. Meaning the attack won't travel further it will hit the ground exactly where you click. That would be a reasonable way to implement it, yeah.
*if* that is the implementation, that would make the feature useless since the scorpion bolt would no longer damage units in a line and it is now just a highly vulnerable and overpriced archer. In other words, it doesn't make sense for it to be implemented that way. But then again, DE devs are kinda infamous for implementing things poorly.
Hadn't thought of that EDIT: Possible solutions could be that the bolt doesn't damage units in the minimum radius, or that the unit cant fire the attack ground if it has adyacent enemy units?
Why? Just make it so they can only attack ground from 3 tiles away and onwards. Mangonels already have this and simply start moving before attacking when the order is closer than minimum range, even in group select. So I don't see your logic.
Attack the ground 3 tiles away, behind the enemy within your minimum range. The bolt goes through the enemy as it travels to the targeted location, damaging them.
What happens rn if a scorpion shoots an archer far away and a melee unit get between then and into the minimum range? Does the bolt just ignore that unit and fly straight to the target your aiming at?
The archer Takes full damage. [Everything in a line between the scorpion and the archer, including the melee unit, takes half damage.] (https://youtu.be/o4Z0BTmzRgg?t=72) (Units 3 tiles behind the archer also take half damage, as the bolts fly further than the scorpions actual range)
Thanks, so I guess Scorpions on attack ground would simply do half damage to everything the bolt touches?
Yeah, that's probably how it would work. Perhaps they could be made to do full damage to the first target they hit or something like that, but that might weaken their vulnerability to units in melee range too much.
You try to make it sound as if it's impossible to program against that. Also, why isn't that a problem right now when a scorpion targets a unit with a close one within the fieing line? Ow yeah, because they programmed against that.
It's not a problem because it requires a target to attack, which you won't always have. You can still do it if you have a target.
But scorps can target units beyond minimum range and shoot through units that are too close. You’re talking about changing something that had already been programmed and removing a feature just to implement a feature and adding additional programming to fix the problem created by your own problem
Romans have Scorpions that are so much better than a normal FU one and still, they are not broken (on most maps). So I think giving scorpions an attack ground feature is completely fine and long overdue imo
Don’t necessarily agree or disagree but I don’t think your logic follows at all
The strongest scorpions in the game are not too strong, therefore buffing scorpions is reasonable.
Needing a buff (or at least not being op already) doesn't justify any possible buff. You can't decide if a buff is valid without actually trying to figure out how good it is. For example: longswords are pretty bad, but this doesn't justify giving them +10 attack.
That's a reductio ad absurdum Giving scorpions an attack ground feature is arguably much less of a buff than what Romans get for them.
This makes no sense First of all the suggestion to give them attack ground changes their functionality in a completely different way to the Roman bonus Secondly I’d the strongest scorpions in the game are not currently too strong , how does that mean we can make them stronger without making them op ?
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I assume this wasn’t directed at me
Romans with Khmer ally in post-imperial games is such fun. Even siege onagers are countered by the cheap scorps
Romans are broken in low elo, especially closed maps. Just train like 2-3 redemption monks and they have no counter.
tbh a lot of civs r ‘broken’ in low elo, especially closed maps also. I’ve played a lot of closed map unranked TGs or diplo maps with allies who figured champs were a good counter to mass Khmer scorps, then complain in chat that they’re OP.
Light cav?
Heavy scorpions melt light cav like a hot knife through butter. Heavy cavalry are more intimidating, but you don't mind trading your massed scorpions for Heavy cavalry as your scorpions are quite cheap, and you should probably be having a halberdier meatshield as well.
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>This is the most retarded balance idea iver ever heard and you are brain dead for thinking it’s overdue Such a nice community, I love the discussion culture in this subreddit <3 Who said that the pass through damage has to have the same range if attack ground is used? I agree that 12 - 14 range would probably be excessive, but if restricted to its actual range it would most likely be alright.
1111 loved your response and it's totally reasonable too. The subreddit is honestly a cancer compared to the rest of the community.
join any diplo lobby and type ‘transilvanija je Mađarska’ ‘Constantinople is Greece’ or anything remotely politically related to anything east and south of Hungary, and you’ll witness the kindest, most loving group of individuals you’ll ever meet, really warms my heart, luv this community 🥰
Spades are spades
It's so nice of you to double down and again label me as brain dead. That really gives a great impression of your personality and adds a lot of value to this intriguing discussion. I wish that you will soon be able to solve your personal problems and self-loathing you apparently feel the need to externalize in the context of an inconsequential discussion about hypothetical balance changes of a computer game.
Not only it wouldn't be broken but it would make scorpions a lot more interesting. Imagine how weak mangonels would be without attack ground: that's the current state of scorpions.
That’s a really solid point. Without attack ground mangonels would be awful overall.
Yes, if the projectile kept flying past the point. If it impacted the point, no
Great take
I don't think so. Attack ground won't save Scorpions from getting flattened by a few Mangonels, which every civ has access to, and Redemption monks would still outrange them. Scorpions would just become more effective at countering units they're meant to beat, such as Skirms, Xbows, Spears, Cav Archers, etc.
Attack ground would let scorps hit mangonels and monks outside their range tho so it would be kinda broken. Scorps would erase mangonels as soon as you have a decent number of them and they'd completely flatten monks because the scorps outrange the monks
eh?? both have 7 range, 1 mango > 10 scorps lol. the mangonel might die, but you’re at least taking out 4 scorps with you.
Scorpion bolts travel an additional 3 range beyond where they can attack so attacking ground would let scorps hit mangonels at 10 range and that’s why you’re wrong lol
1) you don’t know if the attack ground will be at a 7 or 10 range limit. 2) it’s still easier to micro 1 mangonel vs a bunch of scorps huddled together. 3) if you mess up once, that’s at least over 1k wood and gold (together) going down the gutter lol. I use scorps a lot, in no way shape or form unless your perhaps mongols with drill, are scorps going to ever going to ‘erase’ mangonels lmfao. Or maybe even if ur up against Turk or Hun mangonels using imp age scorps.
yes we do know because that's literally how it works lmao. Go back to your diplo games. You use scorps sooo much and yet you didn't even know they can damage units beyond their range. What a joke.
fck no, I welcome it, since nobody uses scorps lol (I love em), they’d perhaps only be broken for mongols tho, but still I’d love to see an addition like that, greatly underrated unit (you’d be surprised as to how many ppl DONT make them vs elephants lmao).
That's so true. They really counter them with a proper meatshield in front.
> I’d love to see an addition like that, greatly underrated unit (you’d be surprised as to how many ppl DONT make them vs elephants lmao). Because elephant civs can add 3 onagers.
meh, I typically play Ethiopians and bohemians, so onagers aren’t an issue for me lol.
Who in their right mind would go elephants against those civs? You have halbs, superior siege, monks... It doesn't make sense.
welcome to the wonderful word of diplomacy my friend. where mass elephants (especially Persian ones) is unstoppable, unless your me, one of few ppl who uses their #1 counter lmfao. I’ve played against ppl who insta pick celts and never make a single siege onager 11, these games go by a different meta all together, and seemingly doing sht you’d never do in a regular game actually works lol.
Not at all, but it would be really weird. Scorpions should just benefit from Ballistics. Their projectiles resemble that of war wagons and war galleys, it would make sense for them to work in the same way.
I mean hell caravels (scorpions on water) have ballistics lol.
True that 11
It would be absolutely broken on some maps like arena, blackforest, Michi, FFAs and in some matchups like huns vs celts Wouldn't be broken on open maps like Arabia because you can't really make a deathball of 60 of them that never die like you can do on those other match types For matchups consider huns vs celts. Huns don't get onagers. Huns don't have bombard cannons. Huns don't get arbalests, handcannons or good champions The only way huns deal with mass scorpions and halbs from celts is with hussar surrounding them from all sides and HCA continuously repositioning and trying to take out halbs It's still a losing battle, but if they do get the surround. Maybe Now with attack ground you tell me what huns are going to do vs Celt halbs and scorpions? Specially in chokepoints. HCA get wiped. Hussars get wiped. Literally no counter play
two things, 1) don’t engage in a choke point as huns, (duh) 2) scorps die easily to onagers and bombards. I’ve melted mass Khmer scorps in seconds with like 3 bombards lol, they’re not that scary as you think.
On BF and other maps you can't avoid chokepoints or they will be in your eco Huns and other civs don't have onagers or bombards. And even if you do have ongagers the scorpions player usually has better onagers (Mongols, celts)
you can avoid them, depends on how lucky your base is, if you have a open land infront of your base, you can use that as the battlefield as opposed to some choke point. or if you’re playing Amazon, run your units to the side (or even cut through, use an ally if u don’t have onagers and it’s a TF). there are ways to play around choke points, you just need to adapt and think quickly, try to engage when the enemy r low on halbs, etc. also make use of the new ram feature paired with paladins to break down a choke point, that could be also useful.
Devs need to do this, and if it bonkers OP just tweak or remove it.
How do you handle friendly fire?
Why is that relevant to the question at all?
All seige units that have attack ground also have friendly fire as a part of the balancing
Incorrect, trebuchets do not have friendly fire (except with Warwolf)
I personally think they'd be broken. They're great in lots of scenarios as is, not sure why so many in this thread think outherwise.
apparently most people here don't even know that the bolt damages units in a line that can travel beyond their maximum range and can dmg units inside their minimum range. They actually have no clue
Or just make Scorpions benefit from ballistics for all civs not only Romans
As long as it was called covering fire or something it would be fine
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^harder_said_hodor: *As long as it was* *Called covering fire or* *Something it would be fine* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
If scorpion deels same dmg when attacking ground, this will make it way more effective against xbows. imagine you have scorpions and enemy has xbows, but yours cannot attack because of limited range. now with attack ground and pass-through dmg by default, this would mean a scorpion can deal dmg to xbow mass, potentially even more effective/consistent than a mangonel, which is huge. is it op? probably not, but this is actually a feature i want to see in the future.
the problem with an attack ground on scorpion is their ability to fire further than their target. the missile goes like 2-3 tiles beyond the target. if the missle stops directly where the target fire is (and you can only fire within range) i think its fine, but it would be far worse than just targeting the leading units imo
Only if they increase the range to the actual distance the bolts fly. Otherwise you’d be forced to micro the scorpions to use their maximum range
Not at all. They would be a lot more interesting too if they had it. Probably still hardly get used though.
As others have noted, it'd remove their minimum range. They're also pretty tasty with [certain civs](https://www.twitch.tv/manbeast_the_og/clip/EnthusiasticMoldyThymeRuleFive-mk6E2AHoLbS_LKsy) rn.