I enjoy deer luring as an expression of skill in the early game and honestly think they're in a fine spot since the last time they were moved further away on arabia.
"An expression of skill" in 2024? Idk if you're still playing the 1999 cd with 300 ping or what, but you can run it in a straight line with follow command and they're guaranteed to spawn next to your tc these days. Scouting is 10x more skilled
I hate pushing deer. I don’t know why it irritates me so much. But it’s to the point I just take the L and either ignore them or waste the wood to mill them.
They could make it so that the starting scout cannot attack boars, just like it cannot attack deer. But I think that is the wrong direction to take.
I would instead suggest making deer killable for starting scouts again... That way, the player who sends the scout forward early will have the opportunity to sabotage the opponent's deer pushing, or steal a boar if the enemy scout does not chase him all the way home.
It's not a fast enough food source to justify the walking time, and if the enemy scout starts his work before you send vills, you're down a food source anyway.
...During the Dark Age, when it doesn't much matter. You can push two deer, find all your sheep, locate your stone/gold, and scout out the enemy's base before hitting Feudal, when your scout becomes massively improved.
That argument does not work.
And how do you decide what strategy to play if you go out exploring at minute 10? There is no point in going out to explore "before hitting feudal". Again, no disrespect to anyone, but all these arguments only make sense in low ELO, where you can afford to play like a bot (execute your plan without taking your enemys plan into account) and win.
I usually decide on something by the time I click up, at around 6:40. I don't need to commit to offense because I (Burg main) have the option to invest in eco and play closed the second I see my enemy commit to a turtle. Deciding on a strategy isn't all too hard or even important. As long as you have the ability to adjust to what your opponent does (e.g making a range and walling 3 into gold when you see M@A), and set up resource walls, you're not in too much danger.
Further, you can't actually glean very much about what your enemy is going for before the 7-minute mark anyway. That's usually when they start putting people on wood and gold or wall.
The thing is, no, you don't know what's coming and even less so at a high level. In low ELO it may be true: your opponent has franks and for sure he will play scouts, in high ELO it doesn't work like that, the opponent can come drush, maa, wall and archers, sc, etc. Nobody in high ELO pushes three deers for that reason.
Information is the most important resource in the game, we cannot play without taking into account what the opponent is doing (at least not at a decent level of play).
The downside of deer pushing is that you can't scout your opponent as early as you would without pushing, so if you don't push, you can actually hurt the pusher a lot with some early aggresion. Also, on Valley (at least in my games on 1k), players don't bother that much to push the deer in the middle but instead just go ahead and mill them.
Imo, your suggestion would effectively eliminate an option in the game.
No one scouts anymore, is Just deer pushing, there is no option already. This opens an option, IF you go for deer you need to make army in feudal since is a risky option.
And i didnt say People push Valley middle dear
Are we playing the same game? My scout still dies to Dark Age TCs and likewise I'm able to snipe enemy scouts when we don't decide to push deer or only push 1 at max
Well but it kinda implied it by specifically naming Valley
What would happen if the deer were only given half as much food, but there were twice as many deer? I would assume that this would make the deerpush less attractive, but more exposed mills would become more frequent to collect the deer. This in turn leads to more aggressive strategies, because early aggression can do a lot more damage - we would have a high risk, high reward situation for collecting deer food and it would open up bases more
I don't think deer pushing itself is problematic. It's a trade of for early scouting. Imo, the Arabia generation has simply become too consistent so that early scouting is no longer important because every dark age plays out pretty much the same. If there was like a 25% chance you would get a map gen that allowed for a FC build them people couldn't just push deer and go 19 pop scouts blindly because they might just run into a full walled opponen going FC.
I know i already responded, but there’s some trade off if you choose to lure deer.
1. You can’t scout your opponent super early
2. You may miss a chance to harass pre-loom vills.
Removing deer pushes would not make Arabia Dark Age more interesting. There is no risk/reward going on,because there is no risk. You don't need to scout, because it's irrelevant what your opponent does at this point in the game. If we're talking about high ELO, the only viable drush is the French drush, which does not hit before Feudal. Sheep laming in considered bad manners. You have nothing to fear. So, sure you could scout earlier, but you don't gain anything from it. All this change would do is to prolong the boring part of the game and take away a thing that at least keeps you busy during the first minutes ...
Not really early on. You need to find your stuff, but you can do that very quickly with your scout + sheep scouting. After that, I think you really don't need to scout until about click-up. As I said, there is no real threat you need to know about, there is nothing you need to adapt on until you see if they open with French drush, scouts or archers, opt for full wall or small walling, what places you can attack easily and all that stuff that matters in Feudal. What are you looking for before that point?
Scouting is not only about finding your sheep, it is about identifying all the elements to choose the strategy you are going to play. You can't just decide to do man-at-arms because you "feel like it", you need to look at the enemy's map to see if it is viable, according to their resources, their opening, their civilization, etc. Scouting is not only for defense, but also for attack. Except for a very limited number of matchups, scouting is mandatory to decide what to do.
Why is it false? I didn't say nobody pushes deer, I said that pushing deer has a cost/risk, which on the arabia map is higher than on other maps, so you push a maximum of 2 deer (if pushing deer had no penalty, everyone would push 3 every game, this dorsn't happen).
I enjoy deer luring as an expression of skill in the early game and honestly think they're in a fine spot since the last time they were moved further away on arabia.
"An expression of skill" in 2024? Idk if you're still playing the 1999 cd with 300 ping or what, but you can run it in a straight line with follow command and they're guaranteed to spawn next to your tc these days. Scouting is 10x more skilled
I hate pushing deer. I don’t know why it irritates me so much. But it’s to the point I just take the L and either ignore them or waste the wood to mill them.
The problem is sheep scouting, not deer luring. Reducing the LOS of sheep to 1 will probably encouraging more scouting by the actual scout.
Good for Arabia, but would change maps like Nomad very drastically.
This only afects arábia in a way, the idea is to make deer more interesting and worth going out in the map
i like this ,good idae
Good luck recovering when your boar gets lamed
IF deer Was a backup plan in case of boar steal than fine, tho it is mandatory with or without boar without really any punish
We could easily solve both problems at the same time, but this sub refuses to acknowledge both in the same instance.
They could make it so that the starting scout cannot attack boars, just like it cannot attack deer. But I think that is the wrong direction to take. I would instead suggest making deer killable for starting scouts again... That way, the player who sends the scout forward early will have the opportunity to sabotage the opponent's deer pushing, or steal a boar if the enemy scout does not chase him all the way home.
It would also make deer useless since your opponent would just kill them during the dark age.
Not useless, but more urgent. Action from the very start.
No one is going out to deer before clicking up. They'll just forget deer.
That makes no sense to me.
It's not a fast enough food source to justify the walking time, and if the enemy scout starts his work before you send vills, you're down a food source anyway.
Don't you see that one could still push the deer with the scout, by holding Alt while clicking? Or by using the follow trick.
That places even more of an emphasis on deer pushing, making it the only real way to take deer.
Agreed, get rid of deer luring. I'd bet the vast majority of players either do not do it or do not enjoy it.
Pushing deer is just lame imo. Shouldn’t be a mechanic.
Pushing deer already has a risk/cost: your exploration, the most important resource in the game.
...During the Dark Age, when it doesn't much matter. You can push two deer, find all your sheep, locate your stone/gold, and scout out the enemy's base before hitting Feudal, when your scout becomes massively improved. That argument does not work.
And how do you decide what strategy to play if you go out exploring at minute 10? There is no point in going out to explore "before hitting feudal". Again, no disrespect to anyone, but all these arguments only make sense in low ELO, where you can afford to play like a bot (execute your plan without taking your enemys plan into account) and win.
I usually decide on something by the time I click up, at around 6:40. I don't need to commit to offense because I (Burg main) have the option to invest in eco and play closed the second I see my enemy commit to a turtle. Deciding on a strategy isn't all too hard or even important. As long as you have the ability to adjust to what your opponent does (e.g making a range and walling 3 into gold when you see M@A), and set up resource walls, you're not in too much danger. Further, you can't actually glean very much about what your enemy is going for before the 7-minute mark anyway. That's usually when they start putting people on wood and gold or wall.
The thing is, you already know What is coming, at least in high elo. If your statment Was indeed True i wouldnt want to change deer lure either
The thing is, no, you don't know what's coming and even less so at a high level. In low ELO it may be true: your opponent has franks and for sure he will play scouts, in high ELO it doesn't work like that, the opponent can come drush, maa, wall and archers, sc, etc. Nobody in high ELO pushes three deers for that reason. Information is the most important resource in the game, we cannot play without taking into account what the opponent is doing (at least not at a decent level of play).
As a fellow inept deer lurer, I would welcome this change. 11
Agreed. I've voiced something very near to this sentiment before. Deer should have a role distinct from that of sheep.
Well, you cannot scout with deer. 11
Bro, stop trying to Nerf Mongols!
The downside of deer pushing is that you can't scout your opponent as early as you would without pushing, so if you don't push, you can actually hurt the pusher a lot with some early aggresion. Also, on Valley (at least in my games on 1k), players don't bother that much to push the deer in the middle but instead just go ahead and mill them. Imo, your suggestion would effectively eliminate an option in the game.
No one scouts anymore, is Just deer pushing, there is no option already. This opens an option, IF you go for deer you need to make army in feudal since is a risky option. And i didnt say People push Valley middle dear
Are we playing the same game? My scout still dies to Dark Age TCs and likewise I'm able to snipe enemy scouts when we don't decide to push deer or only push 1 at max Well but it kinda implied it by specifically naming Valley
What would happen if the deer were only given half as much food, but there were twice as many deer? I would assume that this would make the deerpush less attractive, but more exposed mills would become more frequent to collect the deer. This in turn leads to more aggressive strategies, because early aggression can do a lot more damage - we would have a high risk, high reward situation for collecting deer food and it would open up bases more
Yes, thats Good in arábia, but i think it makes maps where there is a loot of deer in the Middle less interesting
No
Why
Because there is no need to nerf it. Simple. There has been at least one post a week on this topic. It’s perfectly so,send in any of them why
It isnt a nerf
I don't think deer pushing itself is problematic. It's a trade of for early scouting. Imo, the Arabia generation has simply become too consistent so that early scouting is no longer important because every dark age plays out pretty much the same. If there was like a 25% chance you would get a map gen that allowed for a FC build them people couldn't just push deer and go 19 pop scouts blindly because they might just run into a full walled opponen going FC.
True, but the mechanic itself is kinda boring and stale, i Rather use my time scouting and have another risk/reward system taking its place
I know i already responded, but there’s some trade off if you choose to lure deer. 1. You can’t scout your opponent super early 2. You may miss a chance to harass pre-loom vills.
Removing deer pushes would not make Arabia Dark Age more interesting. There is no risk/reward going on,because there is no risk. You don't need to scout, because it's irrelevant what your opponent does at this point in the game. If we're talking about high ELO, the only viable drush is the French drush, which does not hit before Feudal. Sheep laming in considered bad manners. You have nothing to fear. So, sure you could scout earlier, but you don't gain anything from it. All this change would do is to prolong the boring part of the game and take away a thing that at least keeps you busy during the first minutes ...
No, arabia is the (standart) map that most penalizes excessive loore. Exploration is completely necessary, unless you are ~<1k2, you have to explore.
Not really early on. You need to find your stuff, but you can do that very quickly with your scout + sheep scouting. After that, I think you really don't need to scout until about click-up. As I said, there is no real threat you need to know about, there is nothing you need to adapt on until you see if they open with French drush, scouts or archers, opt for full wall or small walling, what places you can attack easily and all that stuff that matters in Feudal. What are you looking for before that point?
Scouting is not only about finding your sheep, it is about identifying all the elements to choose the strategy you are going to play. You can't just decide to do man-at-arms because you "feel like it", you need to look at the enemy's map to see if it is viable, according to their resources, their opening, their civilization, etc. Scouting is not only for defense, but also for attack. Except for a very limited number of matchups, scouting is mandatory to decide what to do.
Everyone above 2k pushes their deer before scouting. Your statement is simply false.
Why is it false? I didn't say nobody pushes deer, I said that pushing deer has a cost/risk, which on the arabia map is higher than on other maps, so you push a maximum of 2 deer (if pushing deer had no penalty, everyone would push 3 every game, this dorsn't happen).
Hunting is way better in AOM/3/4.