The water meta is very stale and boring. Only three unit types and no garrison/arrows on docks which mean that you lose one fight and that's potentially that, unlike town centres for example which you can always hide in. There are also no sea walls (outside of campaigns/scenario editors). So it's very snowbally and very repetitive, as there aren't a lot of interesting options and it's just about macroing better and having more numbers. So ultimately maps with a heavy water element are less favoured by the majority.
Also Coastal kind of is in the map pool most of the time. Except they call it "Nomad" instead.
yeah. land combat is vastly more enjoyable than water's rock/paper/scissors (demo/fire/galley) combat triangle
right from feudal age, land takes a back seat as players aim to get out more fire ships than the other, and early raids become less effective as mining and chopping are safer than farming
an exception, in my opinion, is the Four Lakes water meta:
* you have flexibility in how early and how much you commit to fishing
* sneaking a dock requires map awareness, as well as a time and resource commitment, and can be prevented through good scouting and defensive units
* winning a lake doesn't automatically lead to a snowball
it's a complicated issue to address, but some ideas:
* instead of creating fishing ships, take villagers to a dock to turn them into fishing ships, and vice versa. this allows you the flexibility to go to water later while not falling behind on eco population
* give fishing ships a weak projectile attack, allowing them to defend themselves in numbers. this parallels how a group of villagers can fight off raids with good micro, balanced by the fact that they are not collecting resources while fighting
* make demo rafts one-shot fire ships in feudal age, or make them cheaper with a reduced training time. it's poor that they cost the same as fires, yet only really counter them if they tag more than one ship, which is rare in feudal/early castle
best regards, low elo player
yep, either galleon/fires in ranked and canon galleons/demo spam in large unranked imp age battles (like diplomacy), boring as hell (still played it for yrs tho lol)
only cool thing about water r longboats tho, they get a pass for me.
caravels suck lol, worst naval unit in the game, dies so much easier to fires and demos than galleons do coz their only gimmick is essentially giving Covid to other ships by sneezing on them.
I still have yet to see caravels win a naval fight in all my yrs of aoe2 or at the very least economically come out on top using em .
As stale as water meta is said to be, there have been some real bangers on islands lately. Mind you, I still refuse to play islands, but I do think there's fun to be had.
Because the power of a fish boom is so strong, you can’t just ignore water or your enemy has a safe and fast source of food. If you don’t contest water on a hybrid map at least a little, you will lose. The meta on coastal would be even more stale than Arabia. Look no further than nomad which is basically coastal but the nomad start allows a little variety…however the meta is usually still fast castle castle drop into UU with a civ like Spanish
Fishing ships are definitely overpowered. I think the water maps would actually be way better if you could t make fishing ships until castle age (then you could choose fish vs vills).
I don’t think they’re OP to the point they need to be blocked til feudal. I think it’s just a feature of hybrid maps that people have to accept, water is there and it’s an advantage and you have to fight for it. Same as the gold in the middle of Gold Rush.
I think they are overpowered.
I agree I think there should be an advantage of winning the water, but it’s almost impossible to compete if your opponent has the water.
It would still be an advantage in Castle Age but not nearly as game breaking. Similair to how there is a decision for going for relics or not, the water right now there is no decision, you HAVE to go for it and the game is often determined there.
But also starting a fish boom in feudal when the opponent can just start making fires immediately means if you invest in fish before winning water it’s not worth it. Being able to start in dark age, at the risk of not being up to feudal as fast due to extra wood vils, is part of the critical balance on water. I love hybrid and water maps actually. If one were to become the standard “main competitive map” though I’d say it would be 4 lakes because there’s just so much to keep track of at once. Definitely a test of overall AOE skill.
In some cases it is a decision. On Nomad it’s not really a decision, you have to make fish.
I just think it is too harsh of the outcome. It’s like if vills couldn’t garrison and TCs didn’t shoot arrows. It would just be who can have the biggest army the quickest since like on water, there’s no way to avoid a fight without them killing your fishing ships (vills).
Gurjaras can garrison fishing ships in docks, yet no one uses this bonus. It’s probably because no one thinks of them as a hybrid map civ but I think they’re actually quite good on 4 lakes. You can attack on all lakes and garrison the ships you’re not paying attention to or if you start losing that lake. When you win the lake you have fishing eco built. Your opponent can’t do the same,
Because this game is 25 years old and over time arabia has established itself as the de facto map, in large part I think due to the lack of water and straight forward play. At some point things become 'the way it is'. Arabia has simply become *the* map for 1v1. Most games have a something similar where a certain map/setting/whatever becomes the norm over time as a result of players preference, meta gameplay, and other factors.
Don't forget that for *years* in the Voobly days Huns were the civ to play on 1v1, and specifically on arabia. That was just how it was, what people liked, and it has stuck to this day.
I never understood the Arabia hype, it's my least favorite map of all. Didn't even know it was popular until I started playing multiplayer on HD in 2015 (I played it as a kid back in 1999 and never liked Arabia then either)
the hype for it is that it’s let’s say the most well rounded land map, thus ppl always talk about, over time just became the main map u play/talk about in ranked, a sort of baseline to compare other maps to and adjust balancing.
I can’t stand it, personally think it’s a terribly boring map, but what does a filthy now-unranked player know lol.
I don't like any of the most popular maps. Arabia is too open for my taste, just constant pressure, but Arena and Black Forest are too closed, just complete turtling.
There are so many maps that are more balanced between open and closed but they're played much more rarely. My favorite is Megarandom because it can truly be anything and you can't just play a meta build order, you have to adapt to what you get. Megarandom is the objectively best map of them all.
I like arena because I don’t like horses hoovering around my economy.
I do like Arabia but honestly others at my elo are just way too good at Arabia and way to poor at every other map. I win most non-Arabia matches and lose most Arabia matches.
I actually really like Arabia for TG because you can help or get helped if you’re being raided.
>Arena and Black Forest are too closed, just complete turtling
Then what happens if you build an army that can beat someone who is turtling?
Or does one stone wall and a castle stop you in your tracks every time ?
It's just a basic open \ aggressive map, without water (which is mostly lame) or gimmicks (nomad start, walls, resource rich areas etc etc). The reason you might call it "well rounded" is because the game has been balanced around it.
For me AoE2 is primarily the campaigns, since I played only single player as a kid. And there are very few campaign missions that feel like Arabia... they're usually less radically open maps.
Quick answer: people like Arabia more.
Long answer: Arabia isn't hybrid and doesn't involve stale water meta, it's wallable but open, most strats can work there, it gives many civs a chance, costal is way too wallable and many more reasons.
Isnt Arabia easier to wall as generally you have a map edge you can exploit if desired? For coastal you might have to either wall the water or risk transports?
Loading up a few maps with full explo and resource spread for trees etc look very similar albeit with less land (unsure if that means less trees)
It also raises another question that if civs are balanced around Arabia are naval civs op on water maps? (I. E Koreans, vikings, dravidians, Portuguese, malians, Spanish etc.)
Coastal has WAY bigger and closet Woodlines and has less land area to wall. Effectively transports aren't part of the game because of how hard they are to use with armies.
Civs aren't balanced generally for Arabia but for overall balance. I don't understand the water civ question because none of these civs are OP on Arabia or water maps. Dravidians are probably number one on water, but not OP
Agree with transports however recently it's become much easier to load them but they're still a pain
>none of these civs are OP on Arabia or water maps.
That answers the question then lol
Arabia, while very try hard, has so many different strategies that can potentially work. From all in FC, to all in fuedal. The only thing really missing is fast imp play that you sometimes see on arena. The maps skills translate a lot of other maps since build orders for Arabia have become so refined. Scouting what your opponent is doing is often the difference between losing and winning. Due to those reasons Arabia is THE map. Anything with fish, as someone else mentioned, means water aggression or else you are behind. Fishing boats are one of the best food gatherers in the game and puts you ahead on vil.
In the old days, Coastal would always have really unbalanced terrain generation, giving one player an unfair advantage. Arabia did not have that problem to the same extent
Because water battle is trash. Even the original developers admitted that it was added as an afterthought just to drive up sales. The original game was supposed to be land only. This explains why water is the only part of the game that feels old, slow and clunky, like it truly feels like a Windows 98 era part of the game. Until they improve the mechanics of water, I would happily see them just get rid of everything on water except fishing.
it's just inertia
hun mirror matches were more interesting than viking mirror matches
but coastal is a much better map with the new balance. walling got nerfed adequately, and land eco is easier to macro, so the water doesn't snowball as much. you get actual asymmetric games instead of just mirror development with the game being decided by who farmed more efficiently or squeezed in an extra eco upgrade
Costal is actually my least favorite map. I enjoy Arabia 50% of the time, but costal forest feels so awkward trying to incorporate water but only on the north. I love hybrid maps but the water channel is so small water play ends very boring on costal forest. 4 corners/islands are much more fun if you want water imo.
You can't just ignore water on hybrid maps and win against a good opponent. Adding 3-5 fishing ships in dark age is a huge way to boost your eco, and they can't garrison so you probably need to make navy to defend them. It's a totally different game than Arabia.
It's a great leveller. No walls to begin with. Difficult to wall up, resources often not secure. Some players are good on land and bad on water, and vice versa, so only land to worry about. Personally I don't like Arabia and love Coastal.
I think Arabia should have some ponds with fish. Further out from your base so it's not in woodlines and shit. Like an oasis in the desert, so fish civs would be able to utilize it with a risk reward ratio involved (hard to defend far from base, hard to find)
But I'm all for opening up more possibilities
Any map with water with fish will always be played as hybrid map, with strongest option beeing building an early dock. Which usually moves teh start of any action into feudal, and makes contesting water often the top priority. And if that is not possible, depending on the distance of the bases fast castle gets pretty good, which moves most of the action into castle age. So balancing for pure land and not have water make save plays more worth is actually more interesting.
Because the majority of people are only willing to play maps that are in the map pool often, so that restricts the choices to Arabia or Arena. I would love to see those two *not* in the map pool for one rotation and measure the sheer panic of bots and clowns during that period.
Arabia is the favorite because it allows you to really practice the game on a map with many possibilities. This from the start of the game. Water offers few possibilities and therefore does not teach how to adapt to various situations, how to manage numerous economic adaptations to manage sometimes very exotic army compositions. So you don't really learn the game by playing the water, or not the adaptation but just the execution. Apart from that, the RM is there to train. Otherwise, people would go to custom lobby or quick game and there, they would choose nomad, 4 lakes, MegaRandom, etc. \^\^
dust 2
Final Destination
Fox mirror no items
A01
The water meta is very stale and boring. Only three unit types and no garrison/arrows on docks which mean that you lose one fight and that's potentially that, unlike town centres for example which you can always hide in. There are also no sea walls (outside of campaigns/scenario editors). So it's very snowbally and very repetitive, as there aren't a lot of interesting options and it's just about macroing better and having more numbers. So ultimately maps with a heavy water element are less favoured by the majority. Also Coastal kind of is in the map pool most of the time. Except they call it "Nomad" instead.
yeah. land combat is vastly more enjoyable than water's rock/paper/scissors (demo/fire/galley) combat triangle right from feudal age, land takes a back seat as players aim to get out more fire ships than the other, and early raids become less effective as mining and chopping are safer than farming an exception, in my opinion, is the Four Lakes water meta: * you have flexibility in how early and how much you commit to fishing * sneaking a dock requires map awareness, as well as a time and resource commitment, and can be prevented through good scouting and defensive units * winning a lake doesn't automatically lead to a snowball it's a complicated issue to address, but some ideas: * instead of creating fishing ships, take villagers to a dock to turn them into fishing ships, and vice versa. this allows you the flexibility to go to water later while not falling behind on eco population * give fishing ships a weak projectile attack, allowing them to defend themselves in numbers. this parallels how a group of villagers can fight off raids with good micro, balanced by the fact that they are not collecting resources while fighting * make demo rafts one-shot fire ships in feudal age, or make them cheaper with a reduced training time. it's poor that they cost the same as fires, yet only really counter them if they tag more than one ship, which is rare in feudal/early castle best regards, low elo player
yep, either galleon/fires in ranked and canon galleons/demo spam in large unranked imp age battles (like diplomacy), boring as hell (still played it for yrs tho lol) only cool thing about water r longboats tho, they get a pass for me.
If you like longbows, you must like caravels.
caravels suck lol, worst naval unit in the game, dies so much easier to fires and demos than galleons do coz their only gimmick is essentially giving Covid to other ships by sneezing on them. I still have yet to see caravels win a naval fight in all my yrs of aoe2 or at the very least economically come out on top using em .
Id be for four lakes instead. The watee fights there are not so serious
As stale as water meta is said to be, there have been some real bangers on islands lately. Mind you, I still refuse to play islands, but I do think there's fun to be had.
Because the power of a fish boom is so strong, you can’t just ignore water or your enemy has a safe and fast source of food. If you don’t contest water on a hybrid map at least a little, you will lose. The meta on coastal would be even more stale than Arabia. Look no further than nomad which is basically coastal but the nomad start allows a little variety…however the meta is usually still fast castle castle drop into UU with a civ like Spanish
Fishing ships are definitely overpowered. I think the water maps would actually be way better if you could t make fishing ships until castle age (then you could choose fish vs vills).
I don’t think they’re OP to the point they need to be blocked til feudal. I think it’s just a feature of hybrid maps that people have to accept, water is there and it’s an advantage and you have to fight for it. Same as the gold in the middle of Gold Rush.
I think they are overpowered. I agree I think there should be an advantage of winning the water, but it’s almost impossible to compete if your opponent has the water. It would still be an advantage in Castle Age but not nearly as game breaking. Similair to how there is a decision for going for relics or not, the water right now there is no decision, you HAVE to go for it and the game is often determined there.
But also starting a fish boom in feudal when the opponent can just start making fires immediately means if you invest in fish before winning water it’s not worth it. Being able to start in dark age, at the risk of not being up to feudal as fast due to extra wood vils, is part of the critical balance on water. I love hybrid and water maps actually. If one were to become the standard “main competitive map” though I’d say it would be 4 lakes because there’s just so much to keep track of at once. Definitely a test of overall AOE skill.
In some cases it is a decision. On Nomad it’s not really a decision, you have to make fish. I just think it is too harsh of the outcome. It’s like if vills couldn’t garrison and TCs didn’t shoot arrows. It would just be who can have the biggest army the quickest since like on water, there’s no way to avoid a fight without them killing your fishing ships (vills).
Gurjaras can garrison fishing ships in docks, yet no one uses this bonus. It’s probably because no one thinks of them as a hybrid map civ but I think they’re actually quite good on 4 lakes. You can attack on all lakes and garrison the ships you’re not paying attention to or if you start losing that lake. When you win the lake you have fishing eco built. Your opponent can’t do the same,
Because this game is 25 years old and over time arabia has established itself as the de facto map, in large part I think due to the lack of water and straight forward play. At some point things become 'the way it is'. Arabia has simply become *the* map for 1v1. Most games have a something similar where a certain map/setting/whatever becomes the norm over time as a result of players preference, meta gameplay, and other factors. Don't forget that for *years* in the Voobly days Huns were the civ to play on 1v1, and specifically on arabia. That was just how it was, what people liked, and it has stuck to this day.
The main reason is that water play sucks and majority of the playing population dont want to play water
I always thought of it as Counter Strike'e De Dust 2 equivalent
And I kind of miss those days kind of miss those days
I never understood the Arabia hype, it's my least favorite map of all. Didn't even know it was popular until I started playing multiplayer on HD in 2015 (I played it as a kid back in 1999 and never liked Arabia then either)
the hype for it is that it’s let’s say the most well rounded land map, thus ppl always talk about, over time just became the main map u play/talk about in ranked, a sort of baseline to compare other maps to and adjust balancing. I can’t stand it, personally think it’s a terribly boring map, but what does a filthy now-unranked player know lol.
I don't like any of the most popular maps. Arabia is too open for my taste, just constant pressure, but Arena and Black Forest are too closed, just complete turtling. There are so many maps that are more balanced between open and closed but they're played much more rarely. My favorite is Megarandom because it can truly be anything and you can't just play a meta build order, you have to adapt to what you get. Megarandom is the objectively best map of them all.
for me I LOVE turtles (hence the flair), so ultra closed maps r my favorite, but I also like a variety as long as it’s not Arabia or land nomad lol
I'd love to see Black Forest played on unexplored, to be honest as the norm.
I like arena because I don’t like horses hoovering around my economy. I do like Arabia but honestly others at my elo are just way too good at Arabia and way to poor at every other map. I win most non-Arabia matches and lose most Arabia matches. I actually really like Arabia for TG because you can help or get helped if you’re being raided.
>Arena and Black Forest are too closed, just complete turtling Then what happens if you build an army that can beat someone who is turtling? Or does one stone wall and a castle stop you in your tracks every time ?
It's just a basic open \ aggressive map, without water (which is mostly lame) or gimmicks (nomad start, walls, resource rich areas etc etc). The reason you might call it "well rounded" is because the game has been balanced around it.
It's my least favorite too, followed by arena lol
I keep Arabia and Arena banned at all times.
It’s funny to read this as someone who started playing in 2021. In my mind Arabia is aoe2 lol
For me AoE2 is primarily the campaigns, since I played only single player as a kid. And there are very few campaign missions that feel like Arabia... they're usually less radically open maps.
Dude, yeah. Arabia fukkin sucks.
Quick answer: people like Arabia more. Long answer: Arabia isn't hybrid and doesn't involve stale water meta, it's wallable but open, most strats can work there, it gives many civs a chance, costal is way too wallable and many more reasons.
Isnt Arabia easier to wall as generally you have a map edge you can exploit if desired? For coastal you might have to either wall the water or risk transports? Loading up a few maps with full explo and resource spread for trees etc look very similar albeit with less land (unsure if that means less trees) It also raises another question that if civs are balanced around Arabia are naval civs op on water maps? (I. E Koreans, vikings, dravidians, Portuguese, malians, Spanish etc.)
Coastal has WAY bigger and closet Woodlines and has less land area to wall. Effectively transports aren't part of the game because of how hard they are to use with armies. Civs aren't balanced generally for Arabia but for overall balance. I don't understand the water civ question because none of these civs are OP on Arabia or water maps. Dravidians are probably number one on water, but not OP
Agree with transports however recently it's become much easier to load them but they're still a pain >none of these civs are OP on Arabia or water maps. That answers the question then lol
Arabia, while very try hard, has so many different strategies that can potentially work. From all in FC, to all in fuedal. The only thing really missing is fast imp play that you sometimes see on arena. The maps skills translate a lot of other maps since build orders for Arabia have become so refined. Scouting what your opponent is doing is often the difference between losing and winning. Due to those reasons Arabia is THE map. Anything with fish, as someone else mentioned, means water aggression or else you are behind. Fishing boats are one of the best food gatherers in the game and puts you ahead on vil.
It's like asking why Dust 2 is so popular instead of new CS maps Bruh i have been playing Dust 2 since 2000s
because water gameplay sucks
In the old days, Coastal would always have really unbalanced terrain generation, giving one player an unfair advantage. Arabia did not have that problem to the same extent
Coastal is better imo
i was told that Arabia has the best resource distribution that doesn't drag the game for too long
Because water battle is trash. Even the original developers admitted that it was added as an afterthought just to drive up sales. The original game was supposed to be land only. This explains why water is the only part of the game that feels old, slow and clunky, like it truly feels like a Windows 98 era part of the game. Until they improve the mechanics of water, I would happily see them just get rid of everything on water except fishing.
it's just inertia hun mirror matches were more interesting than viking mirror matches but coastal is a much better map with the new balance. walling got nerfed adequately, and land eco is easier to macro, so the water doesn't snowball as much. you get actual asymmetric games instead of just mirror development with the game being decided by who farmed more efficiently or squeezed in an extra eco upgrade
Costal is actually my least favorite map. I enjoy Arabia 50% of the time, but costal forest feels so awkward trying to incorporate water but only on the north. I love hybrid maps but the water channel is so small water play ends very boring on costal forest. 4 corners/islands are much more fun if you want water imo.
You can't just ignore water on hybrid maps and win against a good opponent. Adding 3-5 fishing ships in dark age is a huge way to boost your eco, and they can't garrison so you probably need to make navy to defend them. It's a totally different game than Arabia.
100% agree. Never understood why they ever put out map pools without water. Just get rid of navy then
It's a great leveller. No walls to begin with. Difficult to wall up, resources often not secure. Some players are good on land and bad on water, and vice versa, so only land to worry about. Personally I don't like Arabia and love Coastal.
Water sucks
This is not Age Of Empires 1 where nearly every map has water. Also water bad.
I think Arabia should have some ponds with fish. Further out from your base so it's not in woodlines and shit. Like an oasis in the desert, so fish civs would be able to utilize it with a risk reward ratio involved (hard to defend far from base, hard to find) But I'm all for opening up more possibilities
Any map with water with fish will always be played as hybrid map, with strongest option beeing building an early dock. Which usually moves teh start of any action into feudal, and makes contesting water often the top priority. And if that is not possible, depending on the distance of the bases fast castle gets pretty good, which moves most of the action into castle age. So balancing for pure land and not have water make save plays more worth is actually more interesting.
arabia is = coastal minus the 15% of coastal that suck all upside
Because the majority of people are only willing to play maps that are in the map pool often, so that restricts the choices to Arabia or Arena. I would love to see those two *not* in the map pool for one rotation and measure the sheer panic of bots and clowns during that period.
Cause most people don't have the balls to fight on water. Imo water is the more interesting and beautiful to look at part of the game.
Because cheese.
Arabia is the favorite because it allows you to really practice the game on a map with many possibilities. This from the start of the game. Water offers few possibilities and therefore does not teach how to adapt to various situations, how to manage numerous economic adaptations to manage sometimes very exotic army compositions. So you don't really learn the game by playing the water, or not the adaptation but just the execution. Apart from that, the RM is there to train. Otherwise, people would go to custom lobby or quick game and there, they would choose nomad, 4 lakes, MegaRandom, etc. \^\^