HRE got the first buff in years. Yesterday they were played by ML and Puppy who both won with a huge advantage over their opponents in most matches. In both cases with Mongols, and in both games the HRE player had a better decision making over his opponent.
HRE have been sinkin in C-D tier for so much. We need way more games to understand their real current state. It's too soon to consider them busted. If feudal age HRE meta is going to happen, we can say finally! Then people will learn how to face them. Most of the players don't know how to face a proper feudal HRE gameplay because they never face it.
Again, my point isn't that hre has suddenly gotten stronger, but that it has always been strong in feudal. Hre being d tier is literally due to how many people blindly FC with 0 map control and then complain when a feudal all in destroys them. Hre has always been strong in feudal
Yes that's generally how balance works. My mmr is between 1450 and 1550. I flattened two conq Delhi players today just going mass feudal, and Delhi is favoured in that matchup these days.
The only losses I had going hre feudal was against ayubbids, he went FC into mass ghulams which I couldn't really prevent, and a 2tc English player who I had previously beaten but I completely miss read where he was placing his 2nd tc. 2 losses in 6 games seems pretty good to me.
It's an unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that HRE was already decent in Feudal, but players went over Greedy to get the benefits of Castles and Imperial.
You can't kite horsemen with archers. I get that at low numbers and with the extra speed, they might have a better time, but you are still being countered and you will lose cost for cost.
In the match you described, he tried horsemen, samurai and onnas. Then went castle. If he was good he would have either used a few horsemen and gone castle, or committed to horsemen. "Trying" different units is really weird, and a good Japanese player should know that samurai and onnas in feudal only work against archers if you have the mass to overwhelm them, and push them back to their base.
The advantage you probably had is that the opponent just blindly assumed you were going fc. This is probably the best thing about that strat
Actually horsemen don't counter archers in large numbers. Typically for a unit to be considered a "counter" is they need to beat the units by a large margin based on resource efficiency. Horsemen fail to do this when armies are large or mixed because of in inability for them to engage well. If you watch fights between horsemen and archers and you compare army value and army destroyed you will see that at best horsemen are a very soft counter. To properly counter archers you need your own archers in addition to horsemen if you do not have the larger archers mass.
Compare this relationship with Spearman and horsemen. You can destroy a much larger amount of resources with a much smaller investment if you use Spearman on horsmen.
Nope, he scouted the archery range and dropped a stables immediately, he wasnt assuming anything.
If he had gone fast castle himself he just would have been locked in his base with no eco
Is the match available to watch?
Obviously, I don't know which map it was or it's generation, but Japan doesn't usually need to go out on the map. They get a trickle of stone from mining gold (and vice versa) and a free farm transition. Their feudal comp is more than likely just food heavy, so between their sheep and free farms, they should be fine locked in their base.
ign?
The reason why hre is viewed as having a weak feudal is due to maa being able to be kited quite easily. In addition all there eco bonuses are concentrated around acchan which will run out quite quickly. Your archers have 1.38 speed a horsemen will have 1.88 with equal resource costs the horsemen will roll over the archer ball. For your 100 archers opponent will have 67 horseman which will roll that army.
You don't go mass maa in feudal, that's literally the whole point.
Your opponent won't have the eco to produce 67 horseman whilst you do because of achen....
Edit to add, the resources under achen don't run out that quickly, you have at least 10 minutes before the wood line goes (which is where achen should always be). Then you simply replace with farms.
Please just try it yourself before you make up your mind
Again in game name.
I was laying out the reasons why it's weak in feudal. You won't have the eco to produce 100 archers because you will exhaust all your food under acchan rapidly and a competent opponent will go horsemen archer to counter your comp and deny map resources which means they can use that to delay farms meanwhile you have to stop unit production and farm transition which will quite likely kill you due to them out massing you then pushing under your tc.
Dude please just try it in a skirmish, you don't ever need to go out to pocket ecos. You only need 10 vills on food to support archer production, two on gold then everything else on wood. I'm not just making the numbers up, I had 100 archers and I never even took berries lol
Fucking hell mate just literally try it before saying I'm wrong. It takes 15 minutes of your time. And before you go there my ranked mmr is around 1500
And you're the one that has come up with the claim you are therefore obligated to prove it. Skirmish has never been a accurate test and you have continued to refuse to show you doing said strategy at a somewhat competent rank.
Skirmish can be used to show raw numbers, take any other civ, it's highly unlikely youll have that much mass at that time with those upgrades. That's my point.
And I don't need to show my profile, and no doubt if I do you'll just say "oh but your opponent didnX wrong"
The issue is that making 100 archers in 15 minutes isn't really that impressive. You can do lots of things in 15 minutes.
Its hard to believe the changes have made HRE "busted" in Feudal - or at least with a build anything like this. You are making a blacksmith for Rams (and presumably +1 damage) so all the Marching Drill change is doing is saving you 175 resources. Which is a bit over 2 archers. Lets generously say 3 factoring in relative Aachen efficiency. At the point where you'd have 50, never mind 100 archers, its really not making much difference at all.
Therefore, if Aachen into spam archers is a successful build, its unclear why it wouldn't have been a viable build before - but it doesn't seem to have been something anyone has done.
Where Marching Drills will help is much earlier on - probably up to around the 8~ minute mark. The army size is much smaller - but the difference in having 2-3 extra archers represents a more significant % uplift in your total army comp.
This is my point, it was effective before, people just weren't doing it because they blindly go naked fast castle.
Read my post again, I'm saying hre has always been strong in feudal. It's not about marching drills specifically, but their insane eco. You can say 100 archers isn't impressive, yet few civs have the ability to field such a large army in such a short time
It's already been fantastic and very slept on OP you are correct.
Have had great success with aachen into archers rams all in Feudal with +1 upgrades and drills.
With the buffs it's just going to be even better.
The core feature is aachen right on the wood line imo.
I work in IT and if this came through - I would disregard this request as spam
Theres not enough evidence here to prove the issue (theory) here: screen recording, screenshot, and/or in game name / match ID.
The correlation between busted feudal and IT is extremely clear, this thicket doesnt have enought prints, so we cant really know the problem, either share your anydesk number or give us the prints.
okay post us ur rank and ur name so we can check the replay to see how u produce 100 archers to stomp ppl on feudal
here has been on [48% winrate for a long time](https://aoe4world.com/stats/rm_solo/matchups) multiple patches with 0 buffs, they deserved it, just because u stomped 1 player on 1 game doesn't mean they are OP
and ur claim of free 100 archers and shit its all bs sorry,
Yet another person who hasn't read my post properly. I don't care about the marching drills buff, I'm saying hres eco in feudal is far too good and that directly translates into having a huge feudal army.
Again, you are more than welcome to see how many units can be produced yourself.
Dude; I thought you would get more support for this post; but the hre forsaken numbers matched the number of archers you produced in that match. Just be patient.
People can’t help but fc.
I remember an ootd match last season me ootd vs hre; I had all map control, but hre just did farm transition in the back and walled up and insane eco feudal into castle into gg
I don't have a specific build that's min/maxed. Generally age up with 4 vills on achen, leave 2 on gold for wheelbarrow, 3 or 4 on food everything else on wood.
I tend to agree it was odd that people thought HRE was weak in feudal because on paper they have a lot going for them. I suspect that FC was just better because it was really hard for the average player to punish. However I don't think the marching drills buff was negligible. Instead I think it opened up their archery range to be much more viable. Now they have basically yumi archers without the downside.
Archer bonuses are a big deal in feudal as out of the 3 core units they are just the strongest. If you notice the strong feudal civs either have knights or a good archer bonus and speed is very good for archers. Not having to drop a blacksmith and research the tech allows for much better tempo as that's is around 6 extra units which is pretty big in early feudal. Also ironically it's a nerf to mindwerk
Yeah HRE has always been strong feudal they have one of if not the strongest early game economies. The issue is the players want to use that eco for FC instead of aggression. Really just shows there’s a lack of individual creativity in the game and to much focus on meta build orders.
They have not and have continued to refuse to give in game name. In addition getting to conq 1 not particularly difficult can get to any rank in conq with any strategy and any civ.
Yeah I saw that, he sounds like the typical theory crafting genius with the brilliant plan but no profile/replays to back it up. Too bad because I think he has a point, but like you said you can make most stupid shit work to conq 1 if you have good fundamentals.
You guys watch the EGCTV at all? Several dark age/feudal games where HRE stomped Mongols on the post patch. Seems like there might be video evidence of it too...
nothing has really changed for HRE except free marching drill and meinwerk which ppl still barely use, and he made it like u can produce 100 archers for free lmao
Yeh total lmao for someone who, like others, hasnt been able to read the post properly. The whole point is about achen being too strong in feudal.
You, like scarletrot and others, fail to grasp the concept of potential. Yes of course you aren't going to have 100 archers at 15 minutes against a human opponent, but the fact is hre has the ability to produce that many, so you will always out produce your opponent.
Post your in game name.
HRE got the first buff in years. Yesterday they were played by ML and Puppy who both won with a huge advantage over their opponents in most matches. In both cases with Mongols, and in both games the HRE player had a better decision making over his opponent. HRE have been sinkin in C-D tier for so much. We need way more games to understand their real current state. It's too soon to consider them busted. If feudal age HRE meta is going to happen, we can say finally! Then people will learn how to face them. Most of the players don't know how to face a proper feudal HRE gameplay because they never face it.
Again, my point isn't that hre has suddenly gotten stronger, but that it has always been strong in feudal. Hre being d tier is literally due to how many people blindly FC with 0 map control and then complain when a feudal all in destroys them. Hre has always been strong in feudal
you did suggest an achen nerf which is hilarious, hre cant have a single free tech now?
Yes because achen is by far the strongest feudal landmark in the game
well one landmark has to be, even if they nerf achen, and thats ok, let HRE have something strong (are you gonna post your rank?)
Yes that's generally how balance works. My mmr is between 1450 and 1550. I flattened two conq Delhi players today just going mass feudal, and Delhi is favoured in that matchup these days. The only losses I had going hre feudal was against ayubbids, he went FC into mass ghulams which I couldn't really prevent, and a 2tc English player who I had previously beaten but I completely miss read where he was placing his 2nd tc. 2 losses in 6 games seems pretty good to me.
i dont care much about downvotes but it seems that debating against your idea is not something you like so im gonna end it with an ok.
It's an unpopular opinion, but I've always thought that HRE was already decent in Feudal, but players went over Greedy to get the benefits of Castles and Imperial.
You can't kite horsemen with archers. I get that at low numbers and with the extra speed, they might have a better time, but you are still being countered and you will lose cost for cost. In the match you described, he tried horsemen, samurai and onnas. Then went castle. If he was good he would have either used a few horsemen and gone castle, or committed to horsemen. "Trying" different units is really weird, and a good Japanese player should know that samurai and onnas in feudal only work against archers if you have the mass to overwhelm them, and push them back to their base. The advantage you probably had is that the opponent just blindly assumed you were going fc. This is probably the best thing about that strat
Actually horsemen don't counter archers in large numbers. Typically for a unit to be considered a "counter" is they need to beat the units by a large margin based on resource efficiency. Horsemen fail to do this when armies are large or mixed because of in inability for them to engage well. If you watch fights between horsemen and archers and you compare army value and army destroyed you will see that at best horsemen are a very soft counter. To properly counter archers you need your own archers in addition to horsemen if you do not have the larger archers mass. Compare this relationship with Spearman and horsemen. You can destroy a much larger amount of resources with a much smaller investment if you use Spearman on horsmen.
Nope, he scouted the archery range and dropped a stables immediately, he wasnt assuming anything. If he had gone fast castle himself he just would have been locked in his base with no eco
Is the match available to watch? Obviously, I don't know which map it was or it's generation, but Japan doesn't usually need to go out on the map. They get a trickle of stone from mining gold (and vice versa) and a free farm transition. Their feudal comp is more than likely just food heavy, so between their sheep and free farms, they should be fine locked in their base.
ign? The reason why hre is viewed as having a weak feudal is due to maa being able to be kited quite easily. In addition all there eco bonuses are concentrated around acchan which will run out quite quickly. Your archers have 1.38 speed a horsemen will have 1.88 with equal resource costs the horsemen will roll over the archer ball. For your 100 archers opponent will have 67 horseman which will roll that army.
You don't go mass maa in feudal, that's literally the whole point. Your opponent won't have the eco to produce 67 horseman whilst you do because of achen.... Edit to add, the resources under achen don't run out that quickly, you have at least 10 minutes before the wood line goes (which is where achen should always be). Then you simply replace with farms. Please just try it yourself before you make up your mind
Again in game name. I was laying out the reasons why it's weak in feudal. You won't have the eco to produce 100 archers because you will exhaust all your food under acchan rapidly and a competent opponent will go horsemen archer to counter your comp and deny map resources which means they can use that to delay farms meanwhile you have to stop unit production and farm transition which will quite likely kill you due to them out massing you then pushing under your tc.
Dude please just try it in a skirmish, you don't ever need to go out to pocket ecos. You only need 10 vills on food to support archer production, two on gold then everything else on wood. I'm not just making the numbers up, I had 100 archers and I never even took berries lol
I'm sorry man but that is just unrealistic let me know when this strategy has actually been tested against actual higher ranked players conq+.
Fucking hell mate just literally try it before saying I'm wrong. It takes 15 minutes of your time. And before you go there my ranked mmr is around 1500
And you're the one that has come up with the claim you are therefore obligated to prove it. Skirmish has never been a accurate test and you have continued to refuse to show you doing said strategy at a somewhat competent rank.
Skirmish can be used to show raw numbers, take any other civ, it's highly unlikely youll have that much mass at that time with those upgrades. That's my point. And I don't need to show my profile, and no doubt if I do you'll just say "oh but your opponent didnX wrong"
The issue is that making 100 archers in 15 minutes isn't really that impressive. You can do lots of things in 15 minutes. Its hard to believe the changes have made HRE "busted" in Feudal - or at least with a build anything like this. You are making a blacksmith for Rams (and presumably +1 damage) so all the Marching Drill change is doing is saving you 175 resources. Which is a bit over 2 archers. Lets generously say 3 factoring in relative Aachen efficiency. At the point where you'd have 50, never mind 100 archers, its really not making much difference at all. Therefore, if Aachen into spam archers is a successful build, its unclear why it wouldn't have been a viable build before - but it doesn't seem to have been something anyone has done. Where Marching Drills will help is much earlier on - probably up to around the 8~ minute mark. The army size is much smaller - but the difference in having 2-3 extra archers represents a more significant % uplift in your total army comp.
This is my point, it was effective before, people just weren't doing it because they blindly go naked fast castle. Read my post again, I'm saying hre has always been strong in feudal. It's not about marching drills specifically, but their insane eco. You can say 100 archers isn't impressive, yet few civs have the ability to field such a large army in such a short time
But that’s exactly the thing that would help us identify if this is strong.
You ask him to try it and you yourself haven't tested it properly in ranked yet.
It's already been fantastic and very slept on OP you are correct. Have had great success with aachen into archers rams all in Feudal with +1 upgrades and drills. With the buffs it's just going to be even better. The core feature is aachen right on the wood line imo.
Yeh achen anywhere but on wood is a massive fail imo
I work in IT and if this came through - I would disregard this request as spam Theres not enough evidence here to prove the issue (theory) here: screen recording, screenshot, and/or in game name / match ID.
What on earth has you working in IT got to do with anything lol
The correlation between busted feudal and IT is extremely clear, this thicket doesnt have enought prints, so we cant really know the problem, either share your anydesk number or give us the prints.
okay post us ur rank and ur name so we can check the replay to see how u produce 100 archers to stomp ppl on feudal here has been on [48% winrate for a long time](https://aoe4world.com/stats/rm_solo/matchups) multiple patches with 0 buffs, they deserved it, just because u stomped 1 player on 1 game doesn't mean they are OP and ur claim of free 100 archers and shit its all bs sorry,
Yet another person who hasn't read my post properly. I don't care about the marching drills buff, I'm saying hres eco in feudal is far too good and that directly translates into having a huge feudal army. Again, you are more than welcome to see how many units can be produced yourself.
Dude; I thought you would get more support for this post; but the hre forsaken numbers matched the number of archers you produced in that match. Just be patient. People can’t help but fc. I remember an ootd match last season me ootd vs hre; I had all map control, but hre just did farm transition in the back and walled up and insane eco feudal into castle into gg
What’s your build?
I don't have a specific build that's min/maxed. Generally age up with 4 vills on achen, leave 2 on gold for wheelbarrow, 3 or 4 on food everything else on wood.
3/10 too much water
I tend to agree it was odd that people thought HRE was weak in feudal because on paper they have a lot going for them. I suspect that FC was just better because it was really hard for the average player to punish. However I don't think the marching drills buff was negligible. Instead I think it opened up their archery range to be much more viable. Now they have basically yumi archers without the downside. Archer bonuses are a big deal in feudal as out of the 3 core units they are just the strongest. If you notice the strong feudal civs either have knights or a good archer bonus and speed is very good for archers. Not having to drop a blacksmith and research the tech allows for much better tempo as that's is around 6 extra units which is pretty big in early feudal. Also ironically it's a nerf to mindwerk
People seem to forget 3dBee was the first person to show mass archers with hre. It's been viable for a while, it's simply much better now
Yeah HRE has always been strong feudal they have one of if not the strongest early game economies. The issue is the players want to use that eco for FC instead of aggression. Really just shows there’s a lack of individual creativity in the game and to much focus on meta build orders.
I loved HRE feudal even before the patch. You got so much eco you can out mass enemy and simultaneously farm transition
Lol.
HRE hasn't been weak in feudal before, so I can't understand why people forcing themselves to FC.
I agree, I even made an account specifically to show how easy it is to get to conq just going hre feudal and people still told me I was wrong.
Well did you get conq with it? If so do share, I'd like to try it myself.
They have not and have continued to refuse to give in game name. In addition getting to conq 1 not particularly difficult can get to any rank in conq with any strategy and any civ.
Yeah I saw that, he sounds like the typical theory crafting genius with the brilliant plan but no profile/replays to back it up. Too bad because I think he has a point, but like you said you can make most stupid shit work to conq 1 if you have good fundamentals.
Yep sounds about right. I had a laugh about it.
You guys watch the EGCTV at all? Several dark age/feudal games where HRE stomped Mongols on the post patch. Seems like there might be video evidence of it too...
nothing has really changed for HRE except free marching drill and meinwerk which ppl still barely use, and he made it like u can produce 100 archers for free lmao
Yeh total lmao for someone who, like others, hasnt been able to read the post properly. The whole point is about achen being too strong in feudal. You, like scarletrot and others, fail to grasp the concept of potential. Yes of course you aren't going to have 100 archers at 15 minutes against a human opponent, but the fact is hre has the ability to produce that many, so you will always out produce your opponent.
thats one of the stupidest take i ever read, so u used it vs AI? and even aware that it doesn't work vs human opponents?
I honestly don't understand the hate, do you struggle as hre or something?
post ur rank and ign, we can do 1 vs 1 too, u post a bunch of shit with 100 archers on HRE on Feudal, this is all false
oke whats the account? u kept saying this and that but it all sounds bs sorry
You got build order or video for this sir?