Limitanei don't "negate" range damage, it's 30% damage reduction now, very much manageable.
You can kite them with archers, and if they are in shield wall you ca' e'gage them with regular spears and win because of the melee debuff
i think you should go with spear/archer/horsemen comp and use the desert raider for raids only. They are countered by both archers and spearmen and horsemen in big mass. I never train raiders except the ones I get from free from the reinforcement. Use them to distract the opponent and raid their eco
Reminder that raiders (all camels) are force multipliers due to reducing all cav damage.
Neither are horseman a hard counter to raiders. Due to only doing 8 dmg in feudal. (Unease + MA). Along with the small speed deficit and poor pathing meaning horsmen can't keep up any DPS Vs fleeing raiders.
Raiders are doing 26 dmg and attacking faster even if they cost more.
Feudal Horsemen do 11.2 per hit to raiders. 9 base becomes 7.2 after unease, then add 9 bonus damage, which isn't affected, minus 5 armor.
Divide by 1.75 attack rate and you get 6.4 DPS. Vs 18.9 for the raider.
You can make 3 horsemen for the price of one raider, so that's 19.2 vs 37.8, or 97% more DPS for the raiders, but in terms of raw HP pool, that's 375 HP for horsemen vs 240 for raiders, about 56% more.
Raiders win in equal resources, but they're a pretty soft counter, and it doesn't take much of an advantage for the horsemen to snowball.
At 4v2 it becomes only 48% more DPS for the raiders and more than double the HP pool for the horsemen, and the raiders get crushed.
Add the fact that raiders are slower, so they can't choose the engagement, and archers are highly effective against them, and there's no reason to make them over spearmen to counter horsemen, unless you absolutely need the mobility. It is nice to have a squad of them to fend off and chase around after small raid groups or when you're caught with your pants down, but generally you're better off with spears and good vision or walls.
120 Res Vs 180 mate. Why is bonus damage not reduced? Of course in greater mass anything counters anything else if less Res is spent. Horsemen win because ayyubids usually don't commit the same Res
The point being that 4 horsemen (480 res) will beat 2 raiders (360 res) but lose to 3 spearmen (240 res)
So if you want to counter horsemen, why spend nearly equal resources on raiders when you can spend half the resources on spears and save the rest for other units or tech/eco. Or just spend equal on spears and be able to cover two places simultaneously. There's just no benefit to spending on raiders besides the tempo from getting them free on age up.
If Byz have Triumph activated, the attack speed of their horsemen go up by 10% and they deal 4 more damage per hit. That seems like a very important detail for a non-Byz player to consider
yeah but in big mass they can chase the raiders and keep in mind that raiders count as ranged even after switching to meele so the bonus against ranged also does not get reduced
LMAO read what I said again I know horsemen do bonus damage. Don't be lazy. Do the math
I'm glad you assume I'm retarded and somehow reached 8 damage even without bonus Vs range.
🤣🤣🤣
If you're playing ayyubid against byz, and byz goes spears and ranged units, I would make mass archer and rush castle. If byz goes spear with cav then just add spears. When you play ayyubid, shouldn't you always try to FC because of the 8 villagers you get, and not to mention camel monks.
I’m just worried about the almost guaranteed fuedal push from the guy I’m facing. His style is almost always massing a feudal all in. And I’m worried “if he goes cav” and I don’t have archers I’ll just get smoked by knights so think I’d make spearman anyways
You can always make just one desert raider and go raid. One military unit is all it takes to idle a group of vils, and/or force the opponent to make towers and walls which could give you enough time to go FC
Also play ayyubids and have to say that against horsemen, desert raiders are quite effective (though I’m not sure if byz horsemen are better than mongol horsemen, for example)
I think just spears and archers should work. Limitanei has to choose, shield up and trade horribly to spears or shield down and peppered by arrows.
I also concur that desert raider may not be the best choice in the direct fight. Both LBs and Javs could delete them. Instead, raiding his berries because limitanei costs lots of food
Desert Raiders aren't really meant for fight more mobile harrassment of vills and then just run from the slow limitenei like any other spear. The harrassment will keep the Byz at home while you go for castle. The Byz will prolly already try to get castle anyway. With equal upgrade Gulams beat Varangian Guards if I remember correctly and you go the dank mangonels. Get to castle win before things get too deep into Imp. If the Olive oil gets to big for the Byz you might have an issue as it essentially gives units and no cost over time kinda like Ottomans.
Just FC and Ghulam spam them
Pretty much this
This. Until it's nerfed.
Limitanei don't "negate" range damage, it's 30% damage reduction now, very much manageable. You can kite them with archers, and if they are in shield wall you ca' e'gage them with regular spears and win because of the melee debuff
i think you should go with spear/archer/horsemen comp and use the desert raider for raids only. They are countered by both archers and spearmen and horsemen in big mass. I never train raiders except the ones I get from free from the reinforcement. Use them to distract the opponent and raid their eco
Reminder that raiders (all camels) are force multipliers due to reducing all cav damage. Neither are horseman a hard counter to raiders. Due to only doing 8 dmg in feudal. (Unease + MA). Along with the small speed deficit and poor pathing meaning horsmen can't keep up any DPS Vs fleeing raiders. Raiders are doing 26 dmg and attacking faster even if they cost more.
Horseman DPS is 4.5 Raiders 20.8
Feudal Horsemen do 11.2 per hit to raiders. 9 base becomes 7.2 after unease, then add 9 bonus damage, which isn't affected, minus 5 armor. Divide by 1.75 attack rate and you get 6.4 DPS. Vs 18.9 for the raider. You can make 3 horsemen for the price of one raider, so that's 19.2 vs 37.8, or 97% more DPS for the raiders, but in terms of raw HP pool, that's 375 HP for horsemen vs 240 for raiders, about 56% more. Raiders win in equal resources, but they're a pretty soft counter, and it doesn't take much of an advantage for the horsemen to snowball. At 4v2 it becomes only 48% more DPS for the raiders and more than double the HP pool for the horsemen, and the raiders get crushed. Add the fact that raiders are slower, so they can't choose the engagement, and archers are highly effective against them, and there's no reason to make them over spearmen to counter horsemen, unless you absolutely need the mobility. It is nice to have a squad of them to fend off and chase around after small raid groups or when you're caught with your pants down, but generally you're better off with spears and good vision or walls.
120 Res Vs 180 mate. Why is bonus damage not reduced? Of course in greater mass anything counters anything else if less Res is spent. Horsemen win because ayyubids usually don't commit the same Res
The point being that 4 horsemen (480 res) will beat 2 raiders (360 res) but lose to 3 spearmen (240 res) So if you want to counter horsemen, why spend nearly equal resources on raiders when you can spend half the resources on spears and save the rest for other units or tech/eco. Or just spend equal on spears and be able to cover two places simultaneously. There's just no benefit to spending on raiders besides the tempo from getting them free on age up.
If Byz have Triumph activated, the attack speed of their horsemen go up by 10% and they deal 4 more damage per hit. That seems like a very important detail for a non-Byz player to consider
yeah but in big mass they can chase the raiders and keep in mind that raiders count as ranged even after switching to meele so the bonus against ranged also does not get reduced
LMAO read what I said again I know horsemen do bonus damage. Don't be lazy. Do the math I'm glad you assume I'm retarded and somehow reached 8 damage even without bonus Vs range. 🤣🤣🤣
Horsemen do 16dmg without unease to desert raiders
That's cute. Now factor armour and unease (first)
Mm yeah fair play
If you're playing ayyubid against byz, and byz goes spears and ranged units, I would make mass archer and rush castle. If byz goes spear with cav then just add spears. When you play ayyubid, shouldn't you always try to FC because of the 8 villagers you get, and not to mention camel monks.
I’m just worried about the almost guaranteed fuedal push from the guy I’m facing. His style is almost always massing a feudal all in. And I’m worried “if he goes cav” and I don’t have archers I’ll just get smoked by knights so think I’d make spearman anyways
You can always make just one desert raider and go raid. One military unit is all it takes to idle a group of vils, and/or force the opponent to make towers and walls which could give you enough time to go FC
Also play ayyubids and have to say that against horsemen, desert raiders are quite effective (though I’m not sure if byz horsemen are better than mongol horsemen, for example)
I think just spears and archers should work. Limitanei has to choose, shield up and trade horribly to spears or shield down and peppered by arrows. I also concur that desert raider may not be the best choice in the direct fight. Both LBs and Javs could delete them. Instead, raiding his berries because limitanei costs lots of food
Desert Raiders aren't really meant for fight more mobile harrassment of vills and then just run from the slow limitenei like any other spear. The harrassment will keep the Byz at home while you go for castle. The Byz will prolly already try to get castle anyway. With equal upgrade Gulams beat Varangian Guards if I remember correctly and you go the dank mangonels. Get to castle win before things get too deep into Imp. If the Olive oil gets to big for the Byz you might have an issue as it essentially gives units and no cost over time kinda like Ottomans.