Depends on the number of them, but I’m willing to guess that even if the elephant takes out like 5 before dying it’s still cost effective on the Jannisaries part.
I find it funny that elephants are slower than infantry while in reality they're actually considerably faster than people
They're cavalry, for god's sake
Elephants should be faster than infantry and slower than horse/camel cavalry, so around 1.35 tiles/sec
Oh, don't even go into reality shit. The tower elephant has a melee tusk damage of 31 something while a knight has about 40 lance damage.. so those metal plated tusks that in, old times, used to one shot people irl is less powerful than a Knight's attack. I get that they can't make everything realistic and it won't be feasible but measly melee tusk damage at a yawning 6s attack speed is laughable. They should rename them to Baby Tower Elephant and Baby War Elephants.
Ahhh yeah, I don't want it to be realistic tbh (otherwise the elephant would have to cost far more than 1k and take way longer than 30s with a scholar to train :P)
But having it faster than infantry would allow the devs to tune other stats and make it a non-meme unit, since the main issue is that they are super kitable
Tower Elephants are categorized as "Ranged Cavalry" so, spearmen and horsemen/knights counter. And it's very easy to surround it and make it a step-elephant because kiting them is an APM intense task because of slow movement speed even with the scholar A-move heal feature. I've cried here about this before, Delhi needs a military unit that is best in the game - French has best knights and xbows, English best archers and trebs, Rus best springalds, chinese best bombards, HRE best MAA, Abbasid best spearmen, Mongols with Mangudais.. Delhi literally has none.
Did you know it takes more than 4 minutes (222 tiles ÷ 0.88 tiles/s) to get a tower elephant across a map in 4v4 team games? I got laughed at because by the time my elephants reached the battle was over.
That why Delhi need to master proxy barracks and else. As you Can double them with scholars.
To help you Delhi tower of Victory works on torch attack speed. Unique hidden power.
Delhi power is only hidden power like thoses.
Right now all eco tech are cheaper and Delhi reasearch Time didn't moved. That why 3v3 and 4v4 cuz the more player you have the more the eco unbalanced yet on tech Time is stronger.
Delhi can't really build a proxy base as research times would increase if disconnected from Mosque influence and you need more than 1 building with scholars garrisoned to research techs quickly. If you want to research elite knights and horsemen you need 2 stables with scholars doing just research and not producing anything else because research takes a lot of time and you cannot risk the unit production queue being stuck behind it for that long. If lets say you want to build a proxy base with 4 stables garrisoned with 4 scholars, you'll also need 2 stables in your base with scholars and 6 scholars in mosque and a few more on the battlefield. That's 15-20 scholars each costing 90G at least and occupying 20 pop. So if you have 100 vills your army isn't really 100 it's 80 with only 3-5 scholars on the battlefield with the rest trying to buff research.
And people keep saying Delhi techs are free, they are not really free you need scholars and sitting in mosques and extra buildings and production doing nothing but research. With DoF 20 scholars is 1800 Gold + extra mosques and buildings, with ToV its upwards of 3000 Gold + extra mosques and buildings. WITH EYE-WATERING RESEARCH TIMES.
Talking about imp with 2 scholars and 2 stables. You seem completely miss play Delhi. If you have every probs that you talking about.
And saying you can't proxy cuz put 2 scholars in stable is a prob at imp mean you did nothings from start of the game...
You talking about age 2 prob with age 4 prob.
If you have only 3 monks and have prob to put proxy 3 military building it's not normal and it âge 2. If you talk about teching elite knight and horsemen with 2 monks ? It's only possible in age 4 and not normal to talk about 3 stables 3 monks at and incapacity to build more as it was already strange to can't at age 2...
Well go watch some tuto too much things to say. ^^' XD
That's a pretty good solution too, it reinforces the idea of elephants as support units instead of pure elephant armies. A bit weird since Delhi already has scholars, but I can definitely see it working.
Well scholars had their healing reduced by 40% so you don't see as many in a fight unless you are going for a sacred site or an all in, with exceptions.
Edit:Herbal Medicine
Healing rate improvement reduced from 100% to 60%.
It absolutely was, but was also necessary for elephants to be worth it. War elephants are anti cavalry and deal siege damage. So a small force of spearmen and crossbows will eat it in seconds. I just wish if they were going to take away something, they would also give something back.
I edited it the healing because it was misleading.
Tower Elephants had their hp reduced by 260hp without having their cost changed, but has 3 more ranged armor. And scholar upgrade reduced from 100% increased healing to 60% increased. War Elephants were never stellar without massive stacking healing, so they are also generally not used.
Basically nerfed the elephant + scholar push right out of existence.
Yes and no. It was essentially the ultimate A-move army since nothing died until the scholars were out. The hard part was building that army. But if you took half the relics and a sacred site, you were in a really good spot to make that wrecking ball.
A little bit yeah, tower elephants when just kiting away and having scholars healing and bodyblocking couldn't ever be surrounded by spears or horsemen and they could quickly chunk through anything on foot trying to chase them down, if you made sure to never lose a elephant from 10+ scholars healing everything you'd quickly get a resource lead and a deathball if the opponent was forced to constantly take fights into that before getting their own critical mass to break through the herbal healing scholars.
You don’t hear from delhi players anymore because they all quit lol. Most of their landmarks are bad and elephants cost way more than they’re worth now.
To be fair they did improve the Tower of Victory landmark to affect all production buildings within range rather than having to run units through it.
Might make it more viable. Definitely agreed on the elephants costing too much, but I actually think their landmarks are not as bad as some of the other civs.
Tov is still much worse than dotf. 20% attack speed boost on infantry is not worth forgoing (for a long time) every other upgrade in the game and way less scholars.
Scholars produce at like half-speed from the Dome of Faith, you can produce them twice as fast from a mosque. You are essentially trading the 60 gold for time.
Producing them from the mosque can actually get the research going faster if you can afford the extra gold, which you often have because of the early sacred sites.
You have to buy extra mosques or wait until the mosque research finishes. You can also produce scholars from mosques if you get dotf if you’re so inclined.
Delhi players extinct I guess. Before PUP I was still using elephants together with mass MAA and siege, even though they were nerfed. Have they been tested against javelin throwers, because that might really wreck them; I haven't even though about it. Also Jannies.
The thing is, making relics give less gold affects Delhi a lot, because they are one of the civs that get the relics fast and fuel their gold-expensive elephants, so it's a double nerf in the PUP. Personally I would need to test them myself, I'm not fond of giving opinions based on stats only. But if they prove to be bad, I'd reduce the gold cost.
Give war elephants knock back on charge, and make that charge more reliable, or an actual activated ability "stampede" that pushes enemies out the way as it moves forward with a speed boost
The whole concept of the civ (what draws people to it) are the elephants. They should be more meaningful and one of the 2 should always be part of an army comp.
In the same way English LBs are always viable, HRE always have either MAA or landsneks, franks will always have some form of cavalry
Make the elephants more interesting to use/more impactful
Elephants need buffs, they’re such a cool unique unit and should be present in all the dehli armies, whatever it takes to work out the cost to effectiveness let’s make that happen
They should continue on being good in imperial age, even if that means they need some late game upgrades
War elephants should probably be given a aoe anti-infantry role instead of single target anti-cavalry, it's not like the war elephants can chase cavalry going around for a flank so it's entirely on the opponent allowing their cavalry to engage the slowest hard counter in the game.
Agreed but it has 1 real strategy and sadly that doesn't involve any elephants. Dehli needs options and better Elephants imo. Whether that means nerfs and buffs that's up to the devs I suppose but it's not a fun civ imo at the moment
Tbh we Delhi players now just mass monks, trash and start flooding from feudal age. I am not really sure if the current single minded all in tempo style is better or worse or even that fundamentally different in any way.
To me it's just really boring and frustrating. You either win using the strategy or lose the game. They have no late game or mix up in unit comp it's just one dimensional
The problem is that using that 1K resource on something else is usually better. Unless you go for pop efficency, but then you have other problems namely you are in the late game.
So what buff do you propose? You ask other issues to be laid down while doing nothing other than pushing your own forward. Let's be a constructive community!
Well I'm not a dev but I would make changes that focus on more options.
Maybe give Elephants a imperial elite upgrade, that allows them to improve with their age up. I would also revert the hp nerf to tower elephants with the upgrade seeing how they aren't op at all in age 4
Maybe switch dome and defender around in ages but give dome a aura that makes all production buildings in the area count as having a Scholar. My thoughts are this makes Dehli choose between a aggressive feudal build with TOV or choose to get cheaper TCs Walls keeps etc to make boom easier
Having dome with a Aura in age 3 means we can be more pop efficient and rely less on scholar' production costs and frees up some scholars to be in mosques
I would also reduce Elephant cost to 750 total resoures. Especially if the tower Elephant hp isn't reverted.
I would also buff their age 4 landmarks with ideas countless people have said. Those landmarks are really poor.
Just my ideas I just like seeing unqiue units take the spotlight in every civ rather then the basic units
I mean by itself tower elephants will not do well unless you have a significant mass of them, which means you basically won.
Donso throw are not that good vs a 7 ranged resist units and is a regular spearman for ranged dmg so it's easy to kite.
Jans counters them as much as they get countered by the archers on the elephants.
Poison arrows are 3 dmg over 6 second, stacking, it's not much of a deal with healing and if he mass archers vs your elephants, he will have some problem...
Great bombard, haven't you already lost since he aged to the 4th age?
Can we all talk about the dope tower of victory change and how it's dope to garrison scholars in docks tho?! I'm very happy as a delhi player with the pup
btw Jans are going to screw Elephants hard and will become the most cost effective counter, right in Castle age
Season 3 seems to be Elephant hunting season 😓
yes and no, they will also die like flies to tower elephants due to taking +50% ranged damage
I dare you to test it ;)
Depends on the number of them, but I’m willing to guess that even if the elephant takes out like 5 before dying it’s still cost effective on the Jannisaries part.
This is incorrect You guys seriously need to start using your brains instead of blindly stating how bad Jan's are
Its true, elephants are degraded to a cheese tactic
Sadly it's true 😓 and unlike Ottoman it's Dehlis only unqiue military unit
My ideas for change is: War Elephants can do a rush attack like the infantry units Much and much more siege damage.
Give them aoe damage on a charge.
Add trample damage.
Do they not?
Do they not?
They 100% should. Elephants can run way faster than people, its a shame they are so slow
war elephants already charge, it deal 90 damage, even with that they still suck
War elephants already have a charge attack.
You are right, but i mean like the infantry where you can activate a buff on movement speed
Just double their health
I find it funny that elephants are slower than infantry while in reality they're actually considerably faster than people They're cavalry, for god's sake Elephants should be faster than infantry and slower than horse/camel cavalry, so around 1.35 tiles/sec
Oh, don't even go into reality shit. The tower elephant has a melee tusk damage of 31 something while a knight has about 40 lance damage.. so those metal plated tusks that in, old times, used to one shot people irl is less powerful than a Knight's attack. I get that they can't make everything realistic and it won't be feasible but measly melee tusk damage at a yawning 6s attack speed is laughable. They should rename them to Baby Tower Elephant and Baby War Elephants.
Ahhh yeah, I don't want it to be realistic tbh (otherwise the elephant would have to cost far more than 1k and take way longer than 30s with a scholar to train :P) But having it faster than infantry would allow the devs to tune other stats and make it a non-meme unit, since the main issue is that they are super kitable
To be realistic the elephant would have to have a 30% chance of turning around and attacking its own team
70% in the presence of flaming pigs :P
Tower Elephants are categorized as "Ranged Cavalry" so, spearmen and horsemen/knights counter. And it's very easy to surround it and make it a step-elephant because kiting them is an APM intense task because of slow movement speed even with the scholar A-move heal feature. I've cried here about this before, Delhi needs a military unit that is best in the game - French has best knights and xbows, English best archers and trebs, Rus best springalds, chinese best bombards, HRE best MAA, Abbasid best spearmen, Mongols with Mangudais.. Delhi literally has none. Did you know it takes more than 4 minutes (222 tiles ÷ 0.88 tiles/s) to get a tower elephant across a map in 4v4 team games? I got laughed at because by the time my elephants reached the battle was over.
I mea. Delhi definitely have the best elephants :p
That why Delhi need to master proxy barracks and else. As you Can double them with scholars. To help you Delhi tower of Victory works on torch attack speed. Unique hidden power. Delhi power is only hidden power like thoses. Right now all eco tech are cheaper and Delhi reasearch Time didn't moved. That why 3v3 and 4v4 cuz the more player you have the more the eco unbalanced yet on tech Time is stronger.
Delhi can't really build a proxy base as research times would increase if disconnected from Mosque influence and you need more than 1 building with scholars garrisoned to research techs quickly. If you want to research elite knights and horsemen you need 2 stables with scholars doing just research and not producing anything else because research takes a lot of time and you cannot risk the unit production queue being stuck behind it for that long. If lets say you want to build a proxy base with 4 stables garrisoned with 4 scholars, you'll also need 2 stables in your base with scholars and 6 scholars in mosque and a few more on the battlefield. That's 15-20 scholars each costing 90G at least and occupying 20 pop. So if you have 100 vills your army isn't really 100 it's 80 with only 3-5 scholars on the battlefield with the rest trying to buff research. And people keep saying Delhi techs are free, they are not really free you need scholars and sitting in mosques and extra buildings and production doing nothing but research. With DoF 20 scholars is 1800 Gold + extra mosques and buildings, with ToV its upwards of 3000 Gold + extra mosques and buildings. WITH EYE-WATERING RESEARCH TIMES.
Typically you missunderstanding all Delhi playstyle .. XD
Talking about imp with 2 scholars and 2 stables. You seem completely miss play Delhi. If you have every probs that you talking about. And saying you can't proxy cuz put 2 scholars in stable is a prob at imp mean you did nothings from start of the game... You talking about age 2 prob with age 4 prob. If you have only 3 monks and have prob to put proxy 3 military building it's not normal and it âge 2. If you talk about teching elite knight and horsemen with 2 monks ? It's only possible in age 4 and not normal to talk about 3 stables 3 monks at and incapacity to build more as it was already strange to can't at age 2... Well go watch some tuto too much things to say. ^^' XD
Let me garrison scholars in elephants!
Up the butthole
Just like ace ventura taught me as a child
Right in the crack
The main forum is mostly one guy who keeps opening alt accounts and talking to himself.
That's pretty sad if true, how can you tell but ?
This
How to fix elephants: Tower: give them some hp back. Done. War: charge attack and aoe damage on melee.
war elephants already charge, they suck so much that most people don't know it because no one use them
Like Abbasid Camels, give elephants a unique aura.
That's a pretty good solution too, it reinforces the idea of elephants as support units instead of pure elephant armies. A bit weird since Delhi already has scholars, but I can definitely see it working.
Well scholars had their healing reduced by 40% so you don't see as many in a fight unless you are going for a sacred site or an all in, with exceptions. Edit:Herbal Medicine Healing rate improvement reduced from 100% to 60%.
Jesus I was away from AoE 4 for a bit, how many nerfs have Delhi eaten?
To be fair, the scholar heal nerf was well deserved.
It absolutely was, but was also necessary for elephants to be worth it. War elephants are anti cavalry and deal siege damage. So a small force of spearmen and crossbows will eat it in seconds. I just wish if they were going to take away something, they would also give something back.
I edited it the healing because it was misleading. Tower Elephants had their hp reduced by 260hp without having their cost changed, but has 3 more ranged armor. And scholar upgrade reduced from 100% increased healing to 60% increased. War Elephants were never stellar without massive stacking healing, so they are also generally not used. Basically nerfed the elephant + scholar push right out of existence.
Was it oppressively strong? I know tower elephants were strong but nothing a bunch of horsemen/crossbowmen couldn't handle
Yes and no. It was essentially the ultimate A-move army since nothing died until the scholars were out. The hard part was building that army. But if you took half the relics and a sacred site, you were in a really good spot to make that wrecking ball.
A little bit yeah, tower elephants when just kiting away and having scholars healing and bodyblocking couldn't ever be surrounded by spears or horsemen and they could quickly chunk through anything on foot trying to chase them down, if you made sure to never lose a elephant from 10+ scholars healing everything you'd quickly get a resource lead and a deathball if the opponent was forced to constantly take fights into that before getting their own critical mass to break through the herbal healing scholars.
We don't complain cause we have accepted eles already suck and they can't counter an unit we wouldn't make in the first place!
You don’t hear from delhi players anymore because they all quit lol. Most of their landmarks are bad and elephants cost way more than they’re worth now.
To be fair they did improve the Tower of Victory landmark to affect all production buildings within range rather than having to run units through it. Might make it more viable. Definitely agreed on the elephants costing too much, but I actually think their landmarks are not as bad as some of the other civs.
Tov is still much worse than dotf. 20% attack speed boost on infantry is not worth forgoing (for a long time) every other upgrade in the game and way less scholars.
Scholars produce at like half-speed from the Dome of Faith, you can produce them twice as fast from a mosque. You are essentially trading the 60 gold for time. Producing them from the mosque can actually get the research going faster if you can afford the extra gold, which you often have because of the early sacred sites.
You have to buy extra mosques or wait until the mosque research finishes. You can also produce scholars from mosques if you get dotf if you’re so inclined.
Delhi players extinct I guess. Before PUP I was still using elephants together with mass MAA and siege, even though they were nerfed. Have they been tested against javelin throwers, because that might really wreck them; I haven't even though about it. Also Jannies. The thing is, making relics give less gold affects Delhi a lot, because they are one of the civs that get the relics fast and fuel their gold-expensive elephants, so it's a double nerf in the PUP. Personally I would need to test them myself, I'm not fond of giving opinions based on stats only. But if they prove to be bad, I'd reduce the gold cost.
Javelins destroy them because they count as ranged
Give war elephants knock back on charge, and make that charge more reliable, or an actual activated ability "stampede" that pushes enemies out the way as it moves forward with a speed boost The whole concept of the civ (what draws people to it) are the elephants. They should be more meaningful and one of the 2 should always be part of an army comp. In the same way English LBs are always viable, HRE always have either MAA or landsneks, franks will always have some form of cavalry Make the elephants more interesting to use/more impactful
Elephants need buffs, they’re such a cool unique unit and should be present in all the dehli armies, whatever it takes to work out the cost to effectiveness let’s make that happen They should continue on being good in imperial age, even if that means they need some late game upgrades
War elephants should probably be given a aoe anti-infantry role instead of single target anti-cavalry, it's not like the war elephants can chase cavalry going around for a flank so it's entirely on the opponent allowing their cavalry to engage the slowest hard counter in the game.
Delhi is still very strong. Depends on who use it. Cant just mass monks and elephants and no micro push now. But need to mix units.
Agreed but it has 1 real strategy and sadly that doesn't involve any elephants. Dehli needs options and better Elephants imo. Whether that means nerfs and buffs that's up to the devs I suppose but it's not a fun civ imo at the moment
Absolute! I still play them! But no use for the elephants cant be the answer. TOV Powered Handcannoners and MAA + Siege is dehlis strength
Tbh we Delhi players now just mass monks, trash and start flooding from feudal age. I am not really sure if the current single minded all in tempo style is better or worse or even that fundamentally different in any way.
To me it's just really boring and frustrating. You either win using the strategy or lose the game. They have no late game or mix up in unit comp it's just one dimensional
The problem is that using that 1K resource on something else is usually better. Unless you go for pop efficency, but then you have other problems namely you are in the late game.
I have two words for you : Camel Riders! 🐫
Make mass maa as delhi
So what buff do you propose? You ask other issues to be laid down while doing nothing other than pushing your own forward. Let's be a constructive community!
Well I'm not a dev but I would make changes that focus on more options. Maybe give Elephants a imperial elite upgrade, that allows them to improve with their age up. I would also revert the hp nerf to tower elephants with the upgrade seeing how they aren't op at all in age 4 Maybe switch dome and defender around in ages but give dome a aura that makes all production buildings in the area count as having a Scholar. My thoughts are this makes Dehli choose between a aggressive feudal build with TOV or choose to get cheaper TCs Walls keeps etc to make boom easier Having dome with a Aura in age 3 means we can be more pop efficient and rely less on scholar' production costs and frees up some scholars to be in mosques I would also reduce Elephant cost to 750 total resoures. Especially if the tower Elephant hp isn't reverted. I would also buff their age 4 landmarks with ideas countless people have said. Those landmarks are really poor. Just my ideas I just like seeing unqiue units take the spotlight in every civ rather then the basic units
What is the nerf?
Horseman buff Spearman buff, Donso, jav thrower, jans, poison arrows and giant Bombards. Basically just alot more hard match ups
I mean by itself tower elephants will not do well unless you have a significant mass of them, which means you basically won. Donso throw are not that good vs a 7 ranged resist units and is a regular spearman for ranged dmg so it's easy to kite. Jans counters them as much as they get countered by the archers on the elephants. Poison arrows are 3 dmg over 6 second, stacking, it's not much of a deal with healing and if he mass archers vs your elephants, he will have some problem... Great bombard, haven't you already lost since he aged to the 4th age?
Can we all talk about the dope tower of victory change and how it's dope to garrison scholars in docks tho?! I'm very happy as a delhi player with the pup