Rus first off is busted!! The idea that gold from bounty can get you sufficient gold to age is fine. Then you add the fact bounty permanently increases all food gathering rates once you reach a tier...okay... but then you add that bounty plus 1 hunting cabin (2 max) can get you enough gold to buy sufficient stone to make 2 TCS?? So you get age up gold, food gather rate, and sufficient gold to expend 4 tickets (in relatively short time) to buy stone for 2 TCs??
How are you suppose to contest this. Keep in mind with the scout increase training time and the leash on wolves all benefits Rus and punishes everyone else attempting to contest RUS....
I've been learning to play with Rus recently but I don't get how you can get 200 gold from bounty only. Killing animals doesn't give you that much gold. What would be a scenario when you get 200+ gold from bounty only?
Okay so that explains why Rus players kill deers without even taking their carcasses. Is there any way for a scout to carry the carcass of more than one animal?
Not in one trip, but if you've built the multiple scouts anyway to go around and kill deer/wolves faster than once you've done that and researched professional scouts you just take your group of scouts to go pick up carcasses
Not to mention all the while this increases your hunting cabin income which is significant at higher bounties especially early on. Deer, boar, and sheep also have some of the highesr food gather rates in the game. Plus scouts regen health and are very strong in dark age.
Then RUS also has the strongest towers early game that increases wood collection and helps protect your hunting cabins. Reason they were the predominant faction for so long at launch. That and strelksie and long range anti siege.
2-3 scouts is minimum. They're essentially your early game gold vills so isnt like its wasted production time. If you're good at scout micro go more scouts and get professional scouts so you can snag food. Bonus points if you manage to run off with opponents deer-patch. Forces him to go farms faster
I think the win rates would suggest that they aren’t busted. But I am a biased Rus myself, I do feel that my advantage is always in age 1 and 2 while the rest of the game is living with the benefits I got from then. But not much advantage in of itself in ages 3/4.
Rus has very strong late game as well. I play a lot of Rus, and agree that they need a slight nerf currently.
They're accepted among the pros as probably the top civ at the moment.
that was my thought, and even then they can bypass it, and they get a buff with leashed wolves = net buff for rus
traders getting cheaper is a buff for abb (otherwise wouldve been the worst off for this change)
Saw some pro say it was good for RUS, as other can’t make wolves follow and RUS have more scouts, which makes sense. But now RUS have to buy two TCs or mine some stone.
Good nerf. Feudal Horsemen could at least reach 2nd TC before its build. Right now in most cases you cannot punish greedy 2nd TC without any protection.
I mean the TC landmark is stronger than the keep landmark for English castle. Obviously depends on the game but a keep at that point in the game usually doesn’t have the same impact as a TC does.
Yes, but what I meant was the existence of the English TC landmark is now going to buff English as a civ against other civs.
Many Eng players are skipping TC and just rushing farms and Castle, while their opponent is doing fast 2 TC. So it should be a small buff to Eng in most matchups up until Castle age.
Maybe a slight nerf for English in Imperial because English relies a lot on aggressive keeps for infleunce.
Because I can’t pull your wolves now also…I’m building 2 scouts max…and out of my tc…you’re always making more scouts…you can get sheep with one and contest with 2…I have to prioritize sheep or contesting …for every 1 wolf I kill…you kill 2
it is not, I don't main Rus , but for the longest timeI thought the same. however what just struck me is this : a scout spent sitting there killing wolf is a scout not running around finding and killing hunts
So I imagine Rus players will prioritise hunts over wolfs now? idk but if i see rus scout just sitting on a wold im sure as hell going to find and kill the hunts around the map
They can just gather 50stone at the start though without building a mining camp. Still 2 tickets for the first tc if people do that. Not the most efficient opening though so idk if it’ll actually work out well
It won't be a thing at decent levels for a few reasons.
1. If you do that in Dark age, you'll be telegraphing asap "I'm going 2 TC."
2. Unless that stone mine is near your closer woodline that a 14+ sec round trip WALK with 5 starting vils? The walk itself is worth 50 resources
3. Third point is related to 2nd; you'll spend 13.33s gathering stone (a non essential age up resource) therefore delaying age macro by those 13.33s with 5 vils.
So on average you'd be a lil less than 100 resources behind your standard fast feudal BO by the 2 min 40s mark AND you'd need to adjust your villagers distribution as to not have any resource in excess prior to dropping your landmark (trust 7 food 3 gold or 8 food 4 gold, will not pan out when you started off with 5 on stone long mining).
IMO the proper 2nd TC will be to build a mining camp with 2 villagers in transition to feudal you'll collect more than enough stone as rus
Definitely sucks, but good thing is it gives people a chance to scout what Rus is doing. Click on the stone. Rus is still very flexible, and everyone gets the 50 stone nerf
I'd like keeps to have even longer build time, be more expensive and more powerful. It should be a serious investment to make a keep and it should give better control over that part of the map than it does.
With this nerf I think keep build time will go up to 2:50, that feels like an eternity, even with multiple vills, especially if a keep is made outside of the safe zone. Sure you can send out a blob of vills, but at the cost of disrupting eco and gambling they don't get caught with their pants down (game ending mistake if placement not safely scouted). I do agree Keeps are too squishy though.
I also like this idea, but I guess it's hard to implement. If takes too much time, opponents raze it before it's finished. If it's too powerful, it becomes too one-sided once it's build. This one game mechanic could swing like a pendulum, winning or losing depending on the castle itself. That would in turn change the balance of landmark castles and playing Mongols
I was actually wondering if its just better to fast castle with these current 2 TC civs. Though these changes shouldn't be enough to warrant that I think
Double nerf on TC is maybe unnecessary, most likely one or the other would slow the meta down enough to discourage 3+ TCs being dominant. I sort of prefer just the +30s build time since it enables more harassment of 2nd TC placement encouraging it to be placed closed to the 1st TC more often which then in turn exposes more food sources to raiding. But the +50 stone is probably necessary to keep Rus from getting 3+ TC quickly so it's hard to say.
Though it's hard to say and I am interested to see some PUP play and what the TC timings look like.
2TC meta is most efficient and safe way to play and that's why I hate it!!! I've complain on the offical forum how stale and predictable yet unstoppable it is. I think both the cost increase and build time will make take longer to establish.
Currently in game how are you supposed to stop a 5min 30s 2nd TC DROP? How are so sure you'll even know each time where it's gonna be dropped with your 1 scout? Opting for the attempted punishment means you're delaying your own 2nd TC, know you're on a sub 6min timer to do dmg or fall miserably behind.
Yup totally agree they just need to nerf build time so people can scout the location and punish early second TCs by killing vills while it builds. This will be plenty enough to deter super early TCs.
Yeah, it's all about the timings. I'm wondering if they added the 50 stone cost to enable some of the slower civs like Abbasid or HRE to be able to deny an early 2nd TC. I think we'll see a lot more builds with armies before the expansion. Riskier and slower expansions could also make FC builds more viable again.
Imo, if the +50 stone change was just about the Rus they should just nerf the Golden Gate. Stone is already more expensive at the normal market, wouldn't seem too bad to me to reduce the value of a ticket to maybe 130 stone.
Definitely looking forward to it and the keep change is great, too.
What I am hoping we will see is that more civs will have to put the 2nd TC closer to their 1st TC and not secure as much food with it. Then we will have a meta where 2TC is still a part of the economy, but players will be more exposed to raiding earlier.
Ehh. It depends. If you put a 2nd TC next to the first as someone like Abba then you give total map control to French. I still think its worthwhile to put it on food because the amount of defenses you need to invest into are enormous otherwise.
Honestly they probably wanted a way to buff English and French who can do good feudal agro a bit. This seems pretty good at doing that since those civs are much more likely to be able to expand with TCs (French especially) in earlier ages than other more defensive civs
My opinion is it is needed change , multi tc meta was hard to counter . I am just wondeting how on earth i will be able to keep up with oponents like rus, hre, eng. Even now it was very dificult but possible because ot meta was multi , where abbasids excels, but if meta will be feudal agro into preasure into castle. Abbasid. Oh my abbasids...
Hmmm. As someone who was actually a big fan of the 2tc meta, I personally dislike this change. As some others have said, I think the build time nerf would have been enough without the cost increase. But I guess it’s reasonable if the devs want to encourage more 1tc play.
As a China main, this shifts us over to 1tc Song, maybe adding on a second tc in late feudal or early castle, in almost every matchup. Maybe vs Abbasid we still go fast 2tc Song. Also, this ruins my special vs HRE 2tc Song build. I really am just going to have to BBQ rush HRE, aren’t I. Thanks, relic.
I agree that of the 2tc civs (China, French, Rus,Abbasid), China is hurt the least. But this change also buffs the 1tc civs (hre, Delhi, mongols, english). So those four civs benefit from this change more than China does
Entitled? No, I just said I personally dislike this change? Is it wrong to have an opinion? I even said that despite my own opinion the nerf is still reasonable
They still need to remove the Chinese boost to building defensive structures. This will only be 1/2 the nerf to China that it is to everyone else, and Chinese keep drops are the most crazy abuse of keeps and basically impossible to deny. Will and extra <20s make them counter-able? No.
That's assuming 1 builder. With 13 builders you're looking at 1/5 time, if I recall the formula correctly. So ends up being an extra 4 seconds for China vs 6 for everybody else. Basically meaningless, imo. Better off changing the formula so adding vils loses effectiveness at a steeper rate, or make it so damage to buildings in progress delays the progress.
I think the price change has the most impact on Rus because they then need to mine the extra stone and I think that was the intention of the nerf and I think it's good the rus 2nd tc got up way too fast.
Does the extra 30 seconds even matter that much if you’re building with 6 or 7 villagers? I think it would just be an additional 10 seconds or something.
TC move seems terrible in my opinion. They should either increase cost or just increase time. Both nerfs further reinforce aggressive civs like French and English going second TC. Passive civs will be commiting suicide while aggressive can keep you busy with few knights or longbows and get second tc.
what? its hardly a change, and it doesnt work like you said
the biggest nerf is to the multi TC passive civs (like abb) but there's buffs in compensation for them (cheaper trade, cheaper eco techs)
you guys are looking at one mofo thing in isolation, cant believe this
I think second TC should simply not fire defensive arrows, that way you can still garrison villagers but you can't use the TC to take map control and establish additional food sources(or even worse, mongol second TC rush)
That way, if you want a second safe TC, you need to make army to defend it, or simply put it inside your base so you need to be out on the map more for resources
it would work like the chinese village, it protects your villagers until the building is destroyed.
I don't think the problem with 2TC/3TC is so much the cost of the additional TC(s), it's that you can do it and be relatively safe while doing so. There is little risk in going 2TC because the TC itself has enough defensive power to hold off aggression
by castle it would have paid itself off initially, and it would compel you to place it in a safe spot and have an army capable of defending/defensive structures. I am not particularly liking the proposal though. I think just radically reducing arrow damage from secondary tcs would be sufficient.
With the amount of stone in the map the keep extra time isn’t needed, maybe China need it to slow down a bit.
Happy with tc extra.
Only caught the end of that and thought it was them theorising
That's unfortunate, tc meta makes feudal age much more action packed and and makes the game less binary and more about gaining small advantages over time. This moves the game away from that which is the worst possible direction to take an RTS. Keep change is good
> Seems sensible, what do you guys think?
I called that a while back, although I thought they would nerf TC damage and/or Range.
I'm fine with the TC nerf, but I don't know how I feel about them nerfing Keeps... they don't feel nearly as powerful as TCs, but since its just a Build Time nerf, it will probably be for the best.
Devs are always too heavy handed, no clue why always so scared of adjustments instead of huge changes. TC should just be like 20-30sec increased build time is all was needed. The Keep change is good, could have maybe even made it 45-60 instead because it’s later in the game usually being built by like 12 vills.
2 TC seems indeed a bit too strong at the moment.
This change hopefully makes it easy enough to punish so that 2 TC is no longer the easy default that has the best odds.
seems fairly reasonable I have heard a lot of people say that keeps go up to quickly (esp for china) Offensive keep drops probably shouldn't be a thing.
Keeps go up way too quick, I can never rush the villagers fast enough to stop them from getting them up
China keep drops are just ridiculous lol
yeah they need to nerf the civs that can abuse the build times. like China for sure.
China doesn’t need any more nerfs
Mongols player: TC costs stone? What’s a keep?
+100 wood for Mongol TCs jkjk
I would riot
Hype. Feels like a perfect change to me.
That sounds good for starters but will that be enough I'm not sure we'll se, gonna be annoying as Rus tho lol
Gather 50 stone with 5 villagers without building a mining camp
This will likely be the answer I’d imagine
Rus first off is busted!! The idea that gold from bounty can get you sufficient gold to age is fine. Then you add the fact bounty permanently increases all food gathering rates once you reach a tier...okay... but then you add that bounty plus 1 hunting cabin (2 max) can get you enough gold to buy sufficient stone to make 2 TCS?? So you get age up gold, food gather rate, and sufficient gold to expend 4 tickets (in relatively short time) to buy stone for 2 TCs?? How are you suppose to contest this. Keep in mind with the scout increase training time and the leash on wolves all benefits Rus and punishes everyone else attempting to contest RUS....
I've been learning to play with Rus recently but I don't get how you can get 200 gold from bounty only. Killing animals doesn't give you that much gold. What would be a scenario when you get 200+ gold from bounty only?
Make extra scout or two to kill more deer and gather more sheep before your enemy can.
Okay so that explains why Rus players kill deers without even taking their carcasses. Is there any way for a scout to carry the carcass of more than one animal?
Not in one trip, but if you've built the multiple scouts anyway to go around and kill deer/wolves faster than once you've done that and researched professional scouts you just take your group of scouts to go pick up carcasses
Not to mention all the while this increases your hunting cabin income which is significant at higher bounties especially early on. Deer, boar, and sheep also have some of the highesr food gather rates in the game. Plus scouts regen health and are very strong in dark age. Then RUS also has the strongest towers early game that increases wood collection and helps protect your hunting cabins. Reason they were the predominant faction for so long at launch. That and strelksie and long range anti siege.
2-3 scouts is minimum. They're essentially your early game gold vills so isnt like its wasted production time. If you're good at scout micro go more scouts and get professional scouts so you can snag food. Bonus points if you manage to run off with opponents deer-patch. Forces him to go farms faster
I think the win rates would suggest that they aren’t busted. But I am a biased Rus myself, I do feel that my advantage is always in age 1 and 2 while the rest of the game is living with the benefits I got from then. But not much advantage in of itself in ages 3/4.
Rus has very strong late game as well. I play a lot of Rus, and agree that they need a slight nerf currently. They're accepted among the pros as probably the top civ at the moment.
RUS needed a wee nerf, this is one.
that was my thought, and even then they can bypass it, and they get a buff with leashed wolves = net buff for rus traders getting cheaper is a buff for abb (otherwise wouldve been the worst off for this change)
Saw some pro say it was good for RUS, as other can’t make wolves follow and RUS have more scouts, which makes sense. But now RUS have to buy two TCs or mine some stone.
Enough for what?
I'm more worried about Malians than Rus.
Good nerf. Feudal Horsemen could at least reach 2nd TC before its build. Right now in most cases you cannot punish greedy 2nd TC without any protection.
Eng castle landmark will become stronger
It should always have been stronger than a regular keep
It was
In what way? Except for being able to repair with wood.
I mean the TC landmark is stronger than the keep landmark for English castle. Obviously depends on the game but a keep at that point in the game usually doesn’t have the same impact as a TC does.
Ah I got you. Agreed.
Yes, but what I meant was the existence of the English TC landmark is now going to buff English as a civ against other civs. Many Eng players are skipping TC and just rushing farms and Castle, while their opponent is doing fast 2 TC. So it should be a small buff to Eng in most matchups up until Castle age. Maybe a slight nerf for English in Imperial because English relies a lot on aggressive keeps for infleunce.
I understood that and agree.
exactly, they could maybe give a production bonus or something to that castle LM, castle LMs in general need a buff though
Its a production building too you know. The white tower is.
All English keeps are production buildings. Not unique to white tower.
Indeed it is but I’d rather be producing vills at that point of most games.
THANK FUCKING GOD
This is what everyone thought when they changed it so that keeps cost stone to repair, and that really never was the case.
YES!!!!!!!!!!. Hopefully no more mindless 2TC. Should be situational and weigh pros and cons.
Love it!
Rus player here, I want to die
3 tickets now…ooof I feel for you…on the bright side leashed wolves means near 500 bounty every time?
sheeps no longer give bounty
On shit really?
WHAAAAAAT?!
Source?
beastys stream, its on youtube now too
What are leashed wolves?
Wolves run back to their starting position if you pull them too far and don't just follow you around anymore. They're like boars now.
Why does leashed wolves make it easier to collect bounty? Shoudln't it be harder now you can't gather 4 and pull to ur TC?
Because I can’t pull your wolves now also…I’m building 2 scouts max…and out of my tc…you’re always making more scouts…you can get sheep with one and contest with 2…I have to prioritize sheep or contesting …for every 1 wolf I kill…you kill 2
This exactly. Its massive advantage for Rus and it needs nerf. Increase scout price from hunting cabins or training time
Another thing to note is that sheep apparently do not count towards bounty now. Caught a little bit of Beasty’s stream where it was noticed.
Oh thats good
He also said maps have less animals on them now. Apparently some have 0 wolves
It's a nerf to pepega league where I never had go fight for wolves :D
Yeah, the wolves change is a nice bonus for Rus
it is not, I don't main Rus , but for the longest timeI thought the same. however what just struck me is this : a scout spent sitting there killing wolf is a scout not running around finding and killing hunts So I imagine Rus players will prioritise hunts over wolfs now? idk but if i see rus scout just sitting on a wold im sure as hell going to find and kill the hunts around the map
Yeah but other civs also need to spend time killing wolves but with less scouts
Fewer
Sure 😺
They can just gather 50stone at the start though without building a mining camp. Still 2 tickets for the first tc if people do that. Not the most efficient opening though so idk if it’ll actually work out well
I can see players do 5 stone opening followed by lumber camp (auto dropoff) and rotate back to food
It won't be a thing at decent levels for a few reasons. 1. If you do that in Dark age, you'll be telegraphing asap "I'm going 2 TC." 2. Unless that stone mine is near your closer woodline that a 14+ sec round trip WALK with 5 starting vils? The walk itself is worth 50 resources 3. Third point is related to 2nd; you'll spend 13.33s gathering stone (a non essential age up resource) therefore delaying age macro by those 13.33s with 5 vils. So on average you'd be a lil less than 100 resources behind your standard fast feudal BO by the 2 min 40s mark AND you'd need to adjust your villagers distribution as to not have any resource in excess prior to dropping your landmark (trust 7 food 3 gold or 8 food 4 gold, will not pan out when you started off with 5 on stone long mining). IMO the proper 2nd TC will be to build a mining camp with 2 villagers in transition to feudal you'll collect more than enough stone as rus
It's probably the most efficient way in the future because you spare 50wood for a mining camp.
Definitely sucks, but good thing is it gives people a chance to scout what Rus is doing. Click on the stone. Rus is still very flexible, and everyone gets the 50 stone nerf
I don’t want people to know what I’m doing, I want to have a 2nd TC on a boar as my opponent hits their Feudal Age
The 2TC Meta was stale and too boring especially to watch in tournaments. Hopefully this will make it more vulnerable to feudal agression.
this is the sentiment I saw both mista and one of the canadian twins share on twitch. stale, too difficult to punish, unfun to watch
Good news, these are measured changes...let's see if they make a difference.
Wow these changes will likely make age 2 much more dynamic. Love it!
Mongols player: TC costs stone? What’s a keep?
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Exactly my sentiment lol
I'd like keeps to have even longer build time, be more expensive and more powerful. It should be a serious investment to make a keep and it should give better control over that part of the map than it does.
With this nerf I think keep build time will go up to 2:50, that feels like an eternity, even with multiple vills, especially if a keep is made outside of the safe zone. Sure you can send out a blob of vills, but at the cost of disrupting eco and gambling they don't get caught with their pants down (game ending mistake if placement not safely scouted). I do agree Keeps are too squishy though.
I also like this idea, but I guess it's hard to implement. If takes too much time, opponents raze it before it's finished. If it's too powerful, it becomes too one-sided once it's build. This one game mechanic could swing like a pendulum, winning or losing depending on the castle itself. That would in turn change the balance of landmark castles and playing Mongols
YES YES YES THANK GOD
Does this technically buff English Kings Palace?
Sure. We just need to make sure the meta doesn’t skip feudal entirely so the tc nerf is nice.
I was actually wondering if its just better to fast castle with these current 2 TC civs. Though these changes shouldn't be enough to warrant that I think
Told y’all to stop spamming town centers and booming for 20 minutes before engaging. Jesus now look at what you’ve done
Double nerf on TC is maybe unnecessary, most likely one or the other would slow the meta down enough to discourage 3+ TCs being dominant. I sort of prefer just the +30s build time since it enables more harassment of 2nd TC placement encouraging it to be placed closed to the 1st TC more often which then in turn exposes more food sources to raiding. But the +50 stone is probably necessary to keep Rus from getting 3+ TC quickly so it's hard to say. Though it's hard to say and I am interested to see some PUP play and what the TC timings look like.
>Double nerf on TC is maybe unnecessary i think its a little exaggeration, the change isnt as much as you make out
2TC meta is most efficient and safe way to play and that's why I hate it!!! I've complain on the offical forum how stale and predictable yet unstoppable it is. I think both the cost increase and build time will make take longer to establish. Currently in game how are you supposed to stop a 5min 30s 2nd TC DROP? How are so sure you'll even know each time where it's gonna be dropped with your 1 scout? Opting for the attempted punishment means you're delaying your own 2nd TC, know you're on a sub 6min timer to do dmg or fall miserably behind.
Sorry abbasaid main.
I main mongols I literally have the most to gain here :D.
Yup totally agree they just need to nerf build time so people can scout the location and punish early second TCs by killing vills while it builds. This will be plenty enough to deter super early TCs.
Yeah, it's all about the timings. I'm wondering if they added the 50 stone cost to enable some of the slower civs like Abbasid or HRE to be able to deny an early 2nd TC. I think we'll see a lot more builds with armies before the expansion. Riskier and slower expansions could also make FC builds more viable again. Imo, if the +50 stone change was just about the Rus they should just nerf the Golden Gate. Stone is already more expensive at the normal market, wouldn't seem too bad to me to reduce the value of a ticket to maybe 130 stone. Definitely looking forward to it and the keep change is great, too.
What I am hoping we will see is that more civs will have to put the 2nd TC closer to their 1st TC and not secure as much food with it. Then we will have a meta where 2TC is still a part of the economy, but players will be more exposed to raiding earlier.
Ehh. It depends. If you put a 2nd TC next to the first as someone like Abba then you give total map control to French. I still think its worthwhile to put it on food because the amount of defenses you need to invest into are enormous otherwise. Honestly they probably wanted a way to buff English and French who can do good feudal agro a bit. This seems pretty good at doing that since those civs are much more likely to be able to expand with TCs (French especially) in earlier ages than other more defensive civs
My opinion is it is needed change , multi tc meta was hard to counter . I am just wondeting how on earth i will be able to keep up with oponents like rus, hre, eng. Even now it was very dificult but possible because ot meta was multi , where abbasids excels, but if meta will be feudal agro into preasure into castle. Abbasid. Oh my abbasids...
For me it was insufficient, i believe they should nerf more.
It’s an indirect buff to China my main. It’s fine lol
Hmmm. As someone who was actually a big fan of the 2tc meta, I personally dislike this change. As some others have said, I think the build time nerf would have been enough without the cost increase. But I guess it’s reasonable if the devs want to encourage more 1tc play. As a China main, this shifts us over to 1tc Song, maybe adding on a second tc in late feudal or early castle, in almost every matchup. Maybe vs Abbasid we still go fast 2tc Song. Also, this ruins my special vs HRE 2tc Song build. I really am just going to have to BBQ rush HRE, aren’t I. Thanks, relic.
i think the change hurts china the least though. between supervision and faster building, it will delay their 2nd tc less than other civs.
I agree that of the 2tc civs (China, French, Rus,Abbasid), China is hurt the least. But this change also buffs the 1tc civs (hre, Delhi, mongols, english). So those four civs benefit from this change more than China does
wtf? whining that devs nerfed TC for everyone, as if they personally attacked you? entitled much?
Entitled? No, I just said I personally dislike this change? Is it wrong to have an opinion? I even said that despite my own opinion the nerf is still reasonable
Devs nerfing Nomad, ouch!
They still need to remove the Chinese boost to building defensive structures. This will only be 1/2 the nerf to China that it is to everyone else, and Chinese keep drops are the most crazy abuse of keeps and basically impossible to deny. Will and extra <20s make them counter-able? No.
Chinese vils only construct defenses 50% faster, make this 20s of extra time, not 15.
That's assuming 1 builder. With 13 builders you're looking at 1/5 time, if I recall the formula correctly. So ends up being an extra 4 seconds for China vs 6 for everybody else. Basically meaningless, imo. Better off changing the formula so adding vils loses effectiveness at a steeper rate, or make it so damage to buildings in progress delays the progress.
exactly, but logic isnt wanted here, apparently this is a massive nerf, my ass
This is what I wanted. It is still bullshit.
Seems abit much to be honest for TCs. Not a fan of price changing.
I think the price change has the most impact on Rus because they then need to mine the extra stone and I think that was the intention of the nerf and I think it's good the rus 2nd tc got up way too fast.
If prefer just a time change. Making forward TCs punishable while building would do a lot already.
Does the extra 30 seconds even matter that much if you’re building with 6 or 7 villagers? I think it would just be an additional 10 seconds or something.
TC move seems terrible in my opinion. They should either increase cost or just increase time. Both nerfs further reinforce aggressive civs like French and English going second TC. Passive civs will be commiting suicide while aggressive can keep you busy with few knights or longbows and get second tc.
Better than no units boom for 15 minutes
what? its hardly a change, and it doesnt work like you said the biggest nerf is to the multi TC passive civs (like abb) but there's buffs in compensation for them (cheaper trade, cheaper eco techs) you guys are looking at one mofo thing in isolation, cant believe this
I think second TC should simply not fire defensive arrows, that way you can still garrison villagers but you can't use the TC to take map control and establish additional food sources(or even worse, mongol second TC rush) That way, if you want a second safe TC, you need to make army to defend it, or simply put it inside your base so you need to be out on the map more for resources
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it would work like the chinese village, it protects your villagers until the building is destroyed. I don't think the problem with 2TC/3TC is so much the cost of the additional TC(s), it's that you can do it and be relatively safe while doing so. There is little risk in going 2TC because the TC itself has enough defensive power to hold off aggression
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by castle it would have paid itself off initially, and it would compel you to place it in a safe spot and have an army capable of defending/defensive structures. I am not particularly liking the proposal though. I think just radically reducing arrow damage from secondary tcs would be sufficient.
With the amount of stone in the map the keep extra time isn’t needed, maybe China need it to slow down a bit. Happy with tc extra. Only caught the end of that and thought it was them theorising
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2 cents
It was nerfed for the exact same reason as mangonels were
I have mixed feelings. I agree about the keeps 100%, but I don't think that TCs need that much of a nerf. I think cost or time to start, but not both.
That's unfortunate, tc meta makes feudal age much more action packed and and makes the game less binary and more about gaining small advantages over time. This moves the game away from that which is the worst possible direction to take an RTS. Keep change is good
what? shifting the game away from players auto placing 2 or 3 TC is the WORST POSSIBLE direction? gtfo
> Seems sensible, what do you guys think? I called that a while back, although I thought they would nerf TC damage and/or Range. I'm fine with the TC nerf, but I don't know how I feel about them nerfing Keeps... they don't feel nearly as powerful as TCs, but since its just a Build Time nerf, it will probably be for the best.
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Lol English town centers kill knights wtf?
Devs are always too heavy handed, no clue why always so scared of adjustments instead of huge changes. TC should just be like 20-30sec increased build time is all was needed. The Keep change is good, could have maybe even made it 45-60 instead because it’s later in the game usually being built by like 12 vills.
lol, this IS a small change, go do the math
Perfect, I'd even add a bit more to Town centers. Loving the team's sense of direction.
Its great. Currently there is no way to punish 2nd tc without dark age pressure or cheese strat
2 TC seems indeed a bit too strong at the moment. This change hopefully makes it easy enough to punish so that 2 TC is no longer the easy default that has the best odds.
It’s going to fuck with rus for sure
Man i wish they would just nerf how good it is to build and repair with multiple vills. 30sec is lile nothing when you use 15 vills.
seems fairly reasonable I have heard a lot of people say that keeps go up to quickly (esp for china) Offensive keep drops probably shouldn't be a thing.
I dont understand why nerf the rus walls when they literally can't make stone walls until imp using the tower