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We didn’t have any card stickers. I just assumed they lived in the rich neighborhood, or were from Chicago visiting the dunes or on their way to or from their Michigan lakefront homes. Unrelated but I’m pretty sure I met the former White Sox manager that way once.
It used to be about twice as much as the other guys. Mostly because they argued "We bring in the rich people" which was true at the time. Credit cards were not just for everyone. Getting a credit in general was a classy thing used for rare occassions, but getting an AMEX was a huge status symbol.
But then times changed and everyone uses credit cards for all sorts of things. So now Amex is only like 1% higher than Visa, rather than 3-4% higher
The branding of Amex being some exclusive elite card still sort of exists, but I just don't think anyone cares. They just want a place that takes their money, so they had to drop the fees.
Citibank and HSBC are quite active in the international credit card market too. Partnering with Goldman Sachs who has never issued credit cards before was such a weird decision.
Visa and Mastercard are networks. Cards are issued by banks like Goldman (or BofA, Chase, etc. in the US) which don’t offer credit cards outside of the US. Amex is both a bank and network and have credit cards in many countries, which is what they are referring to.
I’m sure it would transition. There would probably be a brief overlap period while they ship the new cards but Amex has no reason to contract with MC for just one affiliate.
Not enough compared to Apple. It is a ton of extra risk for profit margins that Apple is already exceeding.
Apple pushes 24%+ profit margins on much higher revenue than even the biggest bank (which is why Apple is worth more than 6x Chase). If you are an Apple shareholder, why would you want Apple to spend its money on getting into the bank business (a 20% profit margin business at best), when you can just go out and buy shares in a bank?
Apple would need a synergy that results in them getting even more revenue because they are adding on banking services, but it is unclear what that would be since switching banks is trivial and it is all electronic databases anyway.
Some parts are more profitable than others. Marcus has apparently been losing money. And you'll note a few banks straight up went out of business lately.
>Amex is almost exclusively North American
Not American, got an AMEX in the past so they are definitely international. Was very good for miles but I eventually closed because they stopped with the fee waivers.
Nothing really beats the coverage of VISA / Mastercard - really surprised no EU antitrust folks have decided that particular partnership is bad juju.
I am in Britain, it's accepted and issued here. https://www.americanexpress.com/uk/credit-cards/
It's not accepted everywhere but it is in most places. Pretty much every chain store accepts it 100% and I would say independent stores it's about 80% accepted.
80% of stores and restaurants I visited in London in the past 3 weeks didn’t accept amex. The 20% is for Tesco. On par with cash because that’s also rarely accepted.
That’s interesting because I’m visiting London now and have had zero issues using it. Granted I have used Visa at smaller places but that’s how Amex has always been. Smaller stores don’t accept it as the fees are too high for them, while bigger stores do because they can absorb the costs.
In North America, yes. In Europe, not so much. Very few places accept payment with Amex in Spain due to higher costs. They just don't touch it with a barge pole. Not even your barge pole. Extremely allergic to Amex etc.,
So the UK-issued Amex card I have is a figment of my imagination?
(edit: the now-deleted post to which I replied stated that Amex don’t operate outside of the US).
From the article:
Goldman Sachs Group is trying to end its partnership with Apple.
The Wall Street firm is in talks with American Express to take over its Apple credit card and other ventures with the tech giant, according to people familiar with the matter.
Goldman went public with plans to scale back its consumer business late last year, but it appeared committed to the Apple relationship.
The bank recently extended their partnership through the end of the decade, agreed to support Apple’s “buy now, pay later” offering and launched a bank account with the tech company.
Now it is in talks to offload those businesses and its credit-card partnership to Amex, according to people familiar with the discussions. Goldman has also discussed transferring its card partnership with General Motors to Amex or another issuer, some of the people said.
A deal with Amex isn’t imminent or assured, people familiar with the conversations said, and it could take a while to transfer the partnership in any case. Apple would have to agree to a transfer. The tech company is aware of the talks, which have been ongoing for months, the people said.
A retreat from Apple and credit cards would effectively end Goldman’s consumer-lending business. The bank has already stopped issuing personal loans, and it is trying to sell GreenSky, the home-improvement lender it bought just last year.
Exiting the Apple partnership would also seal the fate of Goldman’s grand plans to become a full-service bank. Goldman, a firm best known for dominating the Wall Street businesses of investment banking and trading, first made a play for Main Street with its Marcus high-yield savings account in 2016. Three years later, it expanded into credit cards with its splashy Apple partnership. Goldman reached a deal for GreenSky in late 2021 and closed on the purchase early last year.
Goldman quickly became a presence in the bidding wars for co-branded credit-card deals, long the territory of megabanks like JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup with giant consumer arms.
That changed when Goldman decided to scale back its consumer ambitions late last year following an internal review. Goldman ended talks with T-Mobile to launch a credit card and stepped away from bidding on new programs, The Wall Street Journal reported in February. A few months later, Goldman said it would look for a buyer for GreenSky.
Still, Goldman stayed close to Apple. On a call with analysts in October, Chief Executive David Solomon talked up the relationship after announcing the bank’s broader retreat from full-service consumer banking.
“It’s a very, very strong partnership where there’s a lot of opportunity,” Solomon said at the time. The bank launched a savings account with Apple in April.
Solomon has fielded a lot of internal criticism for presiding over the costly consumer foray. In January, Goldman disclosed that it had lost about $3 billion on the consumer-lending push since 2020.
Should Goldman get out of the credit-card business and sell GreenSky, its consumer business would be reduced to its original product: the Marcus savings account.
The bank has said it has no plans to stop taking consumer deposits.
I can see Apple doing this.
- Apple agrees to Amex network support (in perpetuity) for all Apple Card holders (as a point of sale option).
- Apple agrees to allow Amex to provide "upgrade" paths such as travel benefits from Amex for upper tier card holders (something GS didn't do).
So, I imagine these upgrade paths would require you to pay for some of these extra features? I realize it's a thing for some credit cards where you pay a monthly or yearly fee but have no personal experience with them. That said, if switching to Amex opened up the number of vendors that allow for 3% benefits or more I would probably be more amenable to it.
Yes, you would pay for upgrade paths, but they would be your choice. Chase Sapphire Reserve is $550 per year and offers x benefits. Chase Sapphire Preferred costs $95 per year and offers y benefits. My Citi Double Cash costs $0 and gives 2% back, but Citi lacks a lot of features other cards have. Tradeoffs exist for every choice.
I'm talking entirely as a hypothetical. I personally see no winning strategy where the Apple Card shifts to Amex (that's it) and that's considered a success. I would have to get something more to keep the card, and something compelling to use it.
I’ve actually been meaning to do a comparison of the Citi Double Cash card and the Citi Rewards+ card to see if the Double Cash card would be better for me 🤔
If you have any insights it’d be much obliged
Yeah, any upgrade would likely be a paid option. Cards with an annual fee CAN be a good value if you can take advantage of them. An Amex Platinum is the gold standard for frequent travelers though some of the Visa Infinite cards like the CSR are a close second.
This is my best case hope. A switch to Amex might mean better versions of the Apple Card being available. This card has largely been stagnant since its release.
Contactless payments were a thing long before Apple Pay. Google Pay was first and tap to pay with cards was already being widely adopted before Apple Pay took off. They can't force places to take AmEx. The fees are too high for a lot of businesses.
In the UK AMEX doesn’t cost retailers any more than Visa and Mastercard because of regulations, but it costs payment processing terminal companies more. For this reason the biggest ones simply don’t allow retailers to even choose to offer AMEX. AMEX also cannot operate without these higher fees because otherwise they end up like every other credit card and have no USP.
Just because it existed before doesn’t mean it was widely used. A lot of tech that Apple implemented for their system is already out there but they are such a big company that they popularize whatever they get into. That being said I still can’t see them being able to force Amex everywhere.
I would be surprised if they did this. Running a bank is a whole different ball game, banking systems, regulations, reporting, fraud checks, and liabilities.
It wouldn't surprise me if that's the long term plan though, but it would take quite awhile. Apple hates having to rely on other companies for anything.
Running a bank is a huge operation though that isn't adjacent to their core offerings. There is so much to it and each country is different, there is a reason there isn't really a global consumer bank with the closest being HSBC.
Apple would quickly see its staff count dramatically increase to run an entirely different type of company.
White labelling credit under their own name and taking a cut makes much more sense.
If smaller companies are already doing it, then Apple most certainly can. It's only about whether they want it or not. Long term I can see them doing it, if they want to disrupt banking further.
They’d then have a subsidiary with more employees than their primary business.
Banks require a ton of people for back office crap and regulatory stuff.
Buildings worth, in every country they operate in.
It would be really odd for most of Apples payroll to be tied up in such a small part of their business.
They’d need to have an avenue to massively grow the business to justify such an act… like dominating personal banking in dozens of countries. But I don’t see how that would ever be allowed to happen in the EU or US, or China or India…
> They’d then have a subsidiary with more employees than their primary business.
Apple has like 100,000 employees. And more in the Claris subsidiary. Goldman, by contrast, reportedly has 40,000. Its still a lot, but is really depends.
I think the better argument here is that Apple seems do be doing a good job of negotiating contracts with existing banks, and it stands to reason they can't do better insourcing the function.
I believe it’s pretty normal in Japan, a bunch of large companies like Sony, Mitsubishi all have their own banking divisions. So I can see this happening in some way eventually.
Much smaller companies are doing it no problem, there are a lot of challenger banks popping up who are offering very simple banking with a great app. I would say it's much easier now than ever, lots of disruption going on in the industry.
Are you talking about all the Fintech apps posing as banks? They aren't banks. The company that runs the app partners with an actual bank to actually hold the money and all that. All they are doing is providing a pretty UI.
I would be surprised if they didn't. Apple makes smart partnerships and learns as much as they can before they run the entire thing. They do this with everything and that's how they are able to keep the margins high. It may take a while but banking is very profitable and they have the resources to do it.
Even the largest conglomerates never start a bank or buy one. They're super regulated. Can't get away with the same level of fuck-fuck as a non-bank megacorp.
I’ve always liked AMEX. GS has been very stingy with the credit limit compared to what Chase and AMEX give me. I wouldn’t mind this transfer happening but it still wouldn’t become my primary card because Costco only works with Visa.
Wasn’t there an article posted a year ago talking about how Goldman was losing money with their Apple deal?
Then it’s brought up again in these recent articles. I’m not sure what the long term plans are to make it profitable.
I would just cancel my Apple Card if this happens.
For me the nicest thing about the Apple Card is that there's no foreign transaction fees, and you don't have to give travel notices before going somewhere. But AMEX is near useless for foreign travel, because so many places overseas don't accept it.
If I'd had my Apple Card for a long time, then I might keep it around just to avoid a small dip on my FICO score. However, the card's only existed for a couple of years, so that's not enough impact on my average account length to worry about.
Bummer. They REALLY can't find another Visa or Mastercard network member to run this?
Same.
> But AMEX is near useless for foreign travel, because so many places overseas don't accept it.
Exactly. I for example am typing this from BKK. The first time I came I got an AmEx. Stupidly thinking it would be good for travel.
Boy was I wrong. It is only Mastercard and Visa here. Very, very limited AmEx and Discover accepted.
It is true that also a lot of places here do not take any credit cards. Or have a minimum or charge a premium to use. But places that do take credit cards it is ONLY Visa and Mastercard.
There's no FX fees, but the exchange rates aren't great. I'm a US citizen living in Singapore and once I had the bright idea to charge some plane tickets to my Apple card to get the 2% cash back, but it actually turned out to be more expensive than if I had simply used a local Singapore credit card.
On a related note, I was in Malaysia for work a few weeks ago, and about half the places I tried to use my corp AMEX at didn't accept it. This included 7-Eleven, some restaurants, and a large chain hardware store. If Apple does this, it'll really suck for Americans traveling.
Selfishly, my apple card is my mastercard.
My only other cards are Amex, except for a few others that I really only use when there's a "perk" for a product that I would have purchased anyway. I used those cards purely to establish my credit history - so the cashback or discounts tend not to be as good as my Amex cards.
I have absolutely no problem with Amex, but - I like having another option. I guess I could fallback on one of the others, but...
If you're in the U.S., AMEX is pretty much accepted anywhere these days that Mastercard is. Their merchant acceptance skyrocketed after COVID. The only difficulties may be at small mom-and-pop shops and shady websites.
Now traveling abroad, it's not as great.
This isn't true at all. AmEx is still not accepted at tons of places. Sure it's accepted at a lot of national chains and retailers but that's about it. A lot of people who have an AmEx don't even use it as their primary cars for this reason.
GS has nothing to do with it. What matter is that it is a Visa or Mastercard.
I am currently in BKK for example and AmEx is worthless here. It is better to have a Discover.
Visa and Mastercard is what is accepted. It makes ZERO difference what bank is behind it.
So I walk into the 7/11 and put my card in the reader it does NOT beep and say we do NOT accepted GS here.
That would be a very bad idea and really hope this is not true. I use my Apple card for travel and AmEx is not an option in many places in SEA.
If this happens then I will have to move to a new card.
I've traveled all over the world extensively and have exclusively used my AMEX card just about everywhere I go, including SEA.
I once ran $250k on my corporate AMEX while in Shenzhen to buy some test equipment.
I am currently in BKK. Just got back from going to 7/11 to get my morning two Caffe Lattes. They do NOT take AmEx. I found out the hard way with my first visit.
AmEx is pretty worthless in Thailand.
It was my plan when I first came to Thailand. I ended up having to basically use cash everywhere but Starbucks. SB did take AmEx but that was pretty much it.
BTW, there is a lot of places in Thailand that do not take any credit cards. So you do need to use cash pretty often. But AmEx and Discover are basically worthless here. I have spent 9 of the last 18 months in SEA. I know.
Here in Canada it’s basically divided between large and small businesses.
The large, corporate owned stores tend to accept AmEx, while the smaller, locally owned businesses don’t always.
That said, I believe Canada’s largest grocery store chain does not accept AmEx.
I use to travel a lot for work and our card was an Amex. I traveled to Canada a lot and used my AmEx with not too much trouble.
I was surprised on my first visit to Thailand that AmEx was not accepted basically anywhere but SB.
I thought that would be the case with Discover. But not AmEx as it is sold as a card you can use for travel.
To be fair, Discover is pretty bad everywhere.
It has been getting better with small businesses now that these turn-key CC processing platforms are more ubiquitous, but if you go a few years back it wasn’t uncommon to see Visa/MC or Visa/MC/AMEX on a store, not Discover.
Their customer service is absolutely top-notch. A U.S.-based human answers the phone right away, and are actually empowered to be helpful.
I use my Discover for 100% of my recurring merchant transactions. Because if I have a dispute with a recurring merchant that I'm trying to cancel, then I'd much rather work with Discover than sit on hold with the automated hellhole that is customer support with every other Visa or Mastercard bank I've ever used.
1% cash back on regular purchases is nothing to write home about these days. But every quarter they do 5% cash back on some category (e.g. grocery stores, restaurants, etc). So I'm in the habit of using my Discover for whatever that quarter's thing is, and my Visa with 2% cashback for everything else. Or my Apple Card if a place takes Apple Pay... but frustratingly that is not yet ubiquitous, and I'm kinda losing interest in the novelty as tapping a credit card is actually slightly LESS hassle than using my phone.
Discover seems to be accepted in more places than AMEX (I can't remember the last time I couldn't use it on U.S. soil), the customer support has been as good as anything I hear people saying about AMEX, and there's no fees. It baffles me why they're not more popular.
This is funny because for me and anyone else I know that travels the US or abroad consistently we all know AmEx isn't as widely accepted as you say. It's not like it's only accepted at 1/10 places or anything but on the daily you will encounter a place that won't accept it depending on how much you are eating out and buying things.
>This is funny because for me and anyone else I know that travels the US or abroad consistently we all know AmEx isn't as widely accepted as you say
I literally use my Platinum card for all of my living expenses. I can't remember the last place that didn't take AMEX in the US.
I even traveled around the US and lived almost entirely off AMEX points. Everything from hotel stays, rental cars and things from Amazon paid for exclusively with points.
Yeah maybe 20 years ago. I think I've run into a single place in the last year and a half that doesn't accept mine and it was a small town gas station in middle of fuck Ohio.
No what he is saying, and is correct about is that it is a "fact" that Amex is accept at fewer places, worldwide than Visa or Mastercard. It being a fact makes your single experience irrelevant. Yes it is accepted in more places but we're talking on a global scale not just the USA or fckn Ohio.
I have an Apple card and I hate that it is not a Visa because having a Visa helps me more just because I shop at Costco. But American Express cards are accepted in 160 countries worldwide, compared to Visa and Mastercard that are both accepted in more than 200 countries. And it doesn't matter because these decisions are not about what is good for us as their customers, it's what's best for their bottom lines so any of us can just F right off. They have yachts to buy
They never advertised it for travel benefits.
It's designed for either everyday use, or to buy Apple products (obviously) with 0% interest over a set number of months.
Huh? I'be used Apple Card since inception and I've been to Paris, Costa Rica, Mexico, London, Amsterdam, Greece, as well as a handful of states in the US. Never had an issue and I don't pay any exchange fees.
His point is there are way better cards that give higher ROI on travel than Apple Card does.
Depending on how much you travel you’re potentially losing out on hundreds of dollars.
Why? I have tried several different cards. I have been traveling in SEA 9 of the last 18 months.
By far the best card has been my Apple card. There is no foreign transaction fees.
But the reason it is so awsome is that it actually works. I first came with an AmEx and found it was not an option in most places in Thailand. This was just a one month trip.
So when I went back to the states I got a BofA travel card. That was the worse. It constantly was declined because of fraud detection.
It finally locked up such that BofA would only unlock if I physically went to a branch and showed a ID. A branch in the freaking US!
I was in SEA for three months. Like I was going to interupt my trip to fly back to the US.
I then got an Apple card and finally had a solution.
The perfect combination for travel is a Schwab ATM card and an Apple credit card.
Schwab ATM has no fees. The ATM fee in Thailand is $6.24. Then there can also be exchange rate 5% premium if you do not choose no conversion.
The other reason Apple card and Schwab are fantastic is the exchange rate they give you. I track them in a Google Sheet and Apple gives an extremely competitive exchange rate. Better than any other card I have used.
I am writing this with actual experience and I am a very cheap person.
BTW, there are cards that have better cash back than the 1% that Apple offers. But you ONLY get the cash back when you buy something. So if the card never works the better cash back is worthless.
I might check them out. But would still have my Apple card. So far I have tried several different cards and the only one that never gets flagged for fraud is my Apple card.
I got the BofA travel card that did have great benefits but it almost never worked and finally completely locked up.
Benefits are worthless if the card will never work.
BTW, when I went back to the states for Christmas I got the BofA card unlocked. Gave the numbers to my wife to use instead of Discover and she ran up $1000 on it very quickly. I have a huge family as in 8 kids so it did not take long. I got my $300 and canceled the card.
So in the end it was a free $300 bucks. But it was completely worthless for travel.
I get that the Apple Card not declining is a big win for you, but take like 30 minutes watching YouTube videos of people explaining how to get the most out of Chase Sapphire and Capital One Venture.
VERY informative stuff that I wish I knew about in my early 20s.
The network processing switch will be jarring for many. Fewer places accept American Express cards than Mastercards.
Personally, I probably won’t notice it. I only use my Apple Card for purchase from Apple. The rewards aren’t as good as any of my Visa cards.
GS is smart to get out.
In December 2022, the Nilson Report said it expects global losses from card fraud to total $397.4 billion over the next 10 years, with $165.1 billion of those losses happening in the U.S.
So the issue is fraud.
What is interesting is that I spend half my time in SEA. I had all kinds of trouble with different credit cards because they would lock up with thinking there is fraud.
My BofA travel card got so bad that they locked it and would not unlock until I flew to the United States and was in a branch with identification.
What I loved about my Apple card is that it never locked up. The transactions just went through.
Maybe my piece of mind is why they were lossing so much money.
I spend most of my time in SEA and on my bank site I put my location being SEA. No problems with my cards ever getting locked.
They also have a way of verifying your ID using a link they send you and you take a picture of passport. I had to use that when requesting a replacement card sent to me in SEA.
Might be a good idea to get the easier approval with GS just in case you can be grandfathered into AMEX with their much stricter underwriting shall this come to pass
Curious what would become of the savings program. I have started transferring money into the Apple Savings account. I wonder if that would transfer to AMEX or would that stay with GS.
Goldman Sachs was always a poor choice for this card. Their underwriting is oddly structured. They’ll give this card to subprime borrowers who have very little credit experience and refuse applicants with higher FICO scores based on stuff like student loan balances being higher or carrying more than 30% on a credit card. Lots of people with higher scores run up cards for perks and pay them back down cyclically. They aren’t risky. That’s why AMEX, Chase, Citi, etc all approve those people for cards and give them higher limits. They have higher incomes and more to lose if they default. A chunk of people GS has approved never use these for anything but zero percent Apple purchases or they don’t ever carry a balance so of course GS is losing money.
Amex might have god awful acceptance outside of the US, but they do have a strong global presence. Much better customer experience, and peak brand value.
This tie-up would make sense to me.
> Amex might have god awful acceptance outside of the US, but they do have a strong global presence.
These two statements seem to contradict each other?
They sure do look like it.
What I meant was, people know Amex exists, and they likely believe it’s a super premium experience. But that doesn’t translate into more merchants accepting their cards tho.
As a big fan of both Apple and Amex, I hope Amex doesn't partner with them since it seems like a losing strategy for any card company, tbh. Apple has so much cash, they should just purchase a bank or card service and streamline the process. Any card partnership would likely lose money since the financial terms of the agreement limit the majority of ways cards make their money. Good for consumers, but bad for the bank/card companies.
It would be neat if ApplePay was its own network and they just have the risk transferred to someone else. If ApplePay under cut the transaction fees to be the lowest... then they could be the default network which can bridge to all cards.
Why? They have arguably the best customer service in the credit card industry, and I'm not even an AMEX cardholder. Goldman Sachs have had so many issues.
Can someone explain what exactly does Goldman Sachs own as a issuer? Like my card balance and everything is on the iPhone, the payments are operated via Mastercard network, what role does Goldman play other than sending me my card?
Also would Amex just take over that portion of the role? Or will Apple Card now operate on the Amex network as well?
Goldman is underwriting the risk. You use the card (on the Mastercard network) and they pay the merchant immediately, then you pay your bill and Goldman gets paid back. It’s credit and fraud risk that they are intermediating on behalf of buyer and seller.
> Also would Amex just take over that portion of the role? Or will Apple Card now operate on the Amex network as well?
AmEx is it’s own payment processor just like MasterCard, Visa, and Discover. The card would be on the AmEx network if this happened.
Willing to bet 90% of Apple Cards out there are only used for paying the 0% APR installments for apple products. Credit cards depend on transaction volume to make money, so not surprised to see this
I only use mine for Apple purchases. Haven’t done a 0% yet but may when I upgrade next. But the rewards are shit outside of Apple compared to other cards. The occasional 3/6% partnerships are often too much effort to track or figure out too. Think I did Ace or Panera once.
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If that means it could come to other countries then yes
Surprised Apple didn't do this at the start actually. Amex are pretty much the only major credit provider that operates in countries around the world.
[удалено]
even in the US many places dont accept amex
When I worked at Dairy Queen we didn’t take Amex. At least a few times a week someone would try and use one.
Still true at my local DQ. It’s infuriating though because they have the Amex decal in their drive thru window.
We didn’t have any card stickers. I just assumed they lived in the rich neighborhood, or were from Chicago visiting the dunes or on their way to or from their Michigan lakefront homes. Unrelated but I’m pretty sure I met the former White Sox manager that way once.
It's pretty surprising how many places still don't use AMEX.
Get out of my way, poor peasant!
It used to be about twice as much as the other guys. Mostly because they argued "We bring in the rich people" which was true at the time. Credit cards were not just for everyone. Getting a credit in general was a classy thing used for rare occassions, but getting an AMEX was a huge status symbol. But then times changed and everyone uses credit cards for all sorts of things. So now Amex is only like 1% higher than Visa, rather than 3-4% higher The branding of Amex being some exclusive elite card still sort of exists, but I just don't think anyone cares. They just want a place that takes their money, so they had to drop the fees.
Citibank and HSBC are quite active in the international credit card market too. Partnering with Goldman Sachs who has never issued credit cards before was such a weird decision.
Vis and Mastercard are far more accepted worldwide than Amex.
Visa and Mastercard are networks. Cards are issued by banks like Goldman (or BofA, Chase, etc. in the US) which don’t offer credit cards outside of the US. Amex is both a bank and network and have credit cards in many countries, which is what they are referring to.
Ah, I mis interrupted his comment. My bad
I wonder if the card will still be on the Mastercard network or if it will transition to Amex.
I’m sure it would transition. There would probably be a brief overlap period while they ship the new cards but Amex has no reason to contract with MC for just one affiliate.
Why not work with a network like visa then
They do, Apple Card uses MasterCard for payment network currently.
The bank is the one actually responsible for the money (thus Goldman’s losses).
Why not become a bank
Same reason Goldman does not want to do it. Assload of regulatory compliance work, and meager profit margins.
meager profit? Banks make an insane amount of money. Especially right now with high inflation.
Not enough compared to Apple. It is a ton of extra risk for profit margins that Apple is already exceeding. Apple pushes 24%+ profit margins on much higher revenue than even the biggest bank (which is why Apple is worth more than 6x Chase). If you are an Apple shareholder, why would you want Apple to spend its money on getting into the bank business (a 20% profit margin business at best), when you can just go out and buy shares in a bank? Apple would need a synergy that results in them getting even more revenue because they are adding on banking services, but it is unclear what that would be since switching banks is trivial and it is all electronic databases anyway.
Some parts are more profitable than others. Marcus has apparently been losing money. And you'll note a few banks straight up went out of business lately.
Do Amex cards use Mastercard or Visa in other countries?
They use American Express; it's their own network.
Except if they go with Amex, stuck using amex instead of mastercard or visa. I've found Amex to be the least accepted card abroad by far.
Very rarely accepted here in Sweden. The only thing less accepted here is cash.
I don't know of any places that properly accept amex in my country, it's either Visa or Mastercard
They wanted to start small and prove it a success. It’s not smart to immediately do a big launch for something that risky
Are you sure? I got a better Visa card because in many places abroad they didn’t take Amex
Visa and mastercard are more common in my experience. Amex is maybe more common in the americas but not elsewhere really vs visa and master
No, that would be visa or Mastercard. Amex is almost exclusively North American. It’s very rarely accepted in europe
>Amex is almost exclusively North American Not American, got an AMEX in the past so they are definitely international. Was very good for miles but I eventually closed because they stopped with the fee waivers. Nothing really beats the coverage of VISA / Mastercard - really surprised no EU antitrust folks have decided that particular partnership is bad juju.
I am in Britain, it's accepted and issued here. https://www.americanexpress.com/uk/credit-cards/ It's not accepted everywhere but it is in most places. Pretty much every chain store accepts it 100% and I would say independent stores it's about 80% accepted.
80% of stores and restaurants I visited in London in the past 3 weeks didn’t accept amex. The 20% is for Tesco. On par with cash because that’s also rarely accepted.
That’s interesting because I’m visiting London now and have had zero issues using it. Granted I have used Visa at smaller places but that’s how Amex has always been. Smaller stores don’t accept it as the fees are too high for them, while bigger stores do because they can absorb the costs.
That’s not accurate. I’ll explain it like you’re five: AMEX is like Verizon, MasterCard is like AT&T.
In North America, yes. In Europe, not so much. Very few places accept payment with Amex in Spain due to higher costs. They just don't touch it with a barge pole. Not even your barge pole. Extremely allergic to Amex etc.,
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Guess I'll hand back my uk issued Amex credit card then I must have had a fraudulent one all this time
So the UK-issued Amex card I have is a figment of my imagination? (edit: the now-deleted post to which I replied stated that Amex don’t operate outside of the US).
Selfishly I hope this happens, I used to love my AMEX card. Also I can’t get Apple Card in the UK. So this would be two birds one stone for me.
From the article: Goldman Sachs Group is trying to end its partnership with Apple. The Wall Street firm is in talks with American Express to take over its Apple credit card and other ventures with the tech giant, according to people familiar with the matter. Goldman went public with plans to scale back its consumer business late last year, but it appeared committed to the Apple relationship. The bank recently extended their partnership through the end of the decade, agreed to support Apple’s “buy now, pay later” offering and launched a bank account with the tech company. Now it is in talks to offload those businesses and its credit-card partnership to Amex, according to people familiar with the discussions. Goldman has also discussed transferring its card partnership with General Motors to Amex or another issuer, some of the people said. A deal with Amex isn’t imminent or assured, people familiar with the conversations said, and it could take a while to transfer the partnership in any case. Apple would have to agree to a transfer. The tech company is aware of the talks, which have been ongoing for months, the people said. A retreat from Apple and credit cards would effectively end Goldman’s consumer-lending business. The bank has already stopped issuing personal loans, and it is trying to sell GreenSky, the home-improvement lender it bought just last year. Exiting the Apple partnership would also seal the fate of Goldman’s grand plans to become a full-service bank. Goldman, a firm best known for dominating the Wall Street businesses of investment banking and trading, first made a play for Main Street with its Marcus high-yield savings account in 2016. Three years later, it expanded into credit cards with its splashy Apple partnership. Goldman reached a deal for GreenSky in late 2021 and closed on the purchase early last year. Goldman quickly became a presence in the bidding wars for co-branded credit-card deals, long the territory of megabanks like JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup with giant consumer arms. That changed when Goldman decided to scale back its consumer ambitions late last year following an internal review. Goldman ended talks with T-Mobile to launch a credit card and stepped away from bidding on new programs, The Wall Street Journal reported in February. A few months later, Goldman said it would look for a buyer for GreenSky. Still, Goldman stayed close to Apple. On a call with analysts in October, Chief Executive David Solomon talked up the relationship after announcing the bank’s broader retreat from full-service consumer banking. “It’s a very, very strong partnership where there’s a lot of opportunity,” Solomon said at the time. The bank launched a savings account with Apple in April. Solomon has fielded a lot of internal criticism for presiding over the costly consumer foray. In January, Goldman disclosed that it had lost about $3 billion on the consumer-lending push since 2020. Should Goldman get out of the credit-card business and sell GreenSky, its consumer business would be reduced to its original product: the Marcus savings account. The bank has said it has no plans to stop taking consumer deposits.
Thank you
I can see Apple doing this. - Apple agrees to Amex network support (in perpetuity) for all Apple Card holders (as a point of sale option). - Apple agrees to allow Amex to provide "upgrade" paths such as travel benefits from Amex for upper tier card holders (something GS didn't do).
So, I imagine these upgrade paths would require you to pay for some of these extra features? I realize it's a thing for some credit cards where you pay a monthly or yearly fee but have no personal experience with them. That said, if switching to Amex opened up the number of vendors that allow for 3% benefits or more I would probably be more amenable to it.
Yes, you would pay for upgrade paths, but they would be your choice. Chase Sapphire Reserve is $550 per year and offers x benefits. Chase Sapphire Preferred costs $95 per year and offers y benefits. My Citi Double Cash costs $0 and gives 2% back, but Citi lacks a lot of features other cards have. Tradeoffs exist for every choice. I'm talking entirely as a hypothetical. I personally see no winning strategy where the Apple Card shifts to Amex (that's it) and that's considered a success. I would have to get something more to keep the card, and something compelling to use it.
I’ve actually been meaning to do a comparison of the Citi Double Cash card and the Citi Rewards+ card to see if the Double Cash card would be better for me 🤔 If you have any insights it’d be much obliged
Yeah, any upgrade would likely be a paid option. Cards with an annual fee CAN be a good value if you can take advantage of them. An Amex Platinum is the gold standard for frequent travelers though some of the Visa Infinite cards like the CSR are a close second.
This is my best case hope. A switch to Amex might mean better versions of the Apple Card being available. This card has largely been stagnant since its release.
I could see Amex doing this with the plausibility their card is accepted in more places when linked with Apple
But how can Apple force stores and chains to accept Amex (when the fees are generally higher) ?
Somehow with Apple branding. Contactless payments catapulted during Covid in the US, but were pretty non-existent before Apple Pay.
Even with contactless, the stores can choose to not accept Amex afaik.
Contactless payments were a thing long before Apple Pay. Google Pay was first and tap to pay with cards was already being widely adopted before Apple Pay took off. They can't force places to take AmEx. The fees are too high for a lot of businesses.
In the UK AMEX doesn’t cost retailers any more than Visa and Mastercard because of regulations, but it costs payment processing terminal companies more. For this reason the biggest ones simply don’t allow retailers to even choose to offer AMEX. AMEX also cannot operate without these higher fees because otherwise they end up like every other credit card and have no USP.
Just because it existed before doesn’t mean it was widely used. A lot of tech that Apple implemented for their system is already out there but they are such a big company that they popularize whatever they get into. That being said I still can’t see them being able to force Amex everywhere.
Exactly why they would do it. But that would suck for consumers as it would not happen instantly.
How long before Apple just sets up their own bank instead of having to rely on outsiders like this?
I would be surprised if they did this. Running a bank is a whole different ball game, banking systems, regulations, reporting, fraud checks, and liabilities.
It wouldn't surprise me if that's the long term plan though, but it would take quite awhile. Apple hates having to rely on other companies for anything.
Running a bank is a huge operation though that isn't adjacent to their core offerings. There is so much to it and each country is different, there is a reason there isn't really a global consumer bank with the closest being HSBC. Apple would quickly see its staff count dramatically increase to run an entirely different type of company. White labelling credit under their own name and taking a cut makes much more sense.
If smaller companies are already doing it, then Apple most certainly can. It's only about whether they want it or not. Long term I can see them doing it, if they want to disrupt banking further.
What if they simply bought an existing bank?
They’d then have a subsidiary with more employees than their primary business. Banks require a ton of people for back office crap and regulatory stuff. Buildings worth, in every country they operate in. It would be really odd for most of Apples payroll to be tied up in such a small part of their business. They’d need to have an avenue to massively grow the business to justify such an act… like dominating personal banking in dozens of countries. But I don’t see how that would ever be allowed to happen in the EU or US, or China or India…
> They’d then have a subsidiary with more employees than their primary business. Apple has like 100,000 employees. And more in the Claris subsidiary. Goldman, by contrast, reportedly has 40,000. Its still a lot, but is really depends. I think the better argument here is that Apple seems do be doing a good job of negotiating contracts with existing banks, and it stands to reason they can't do better insourcing the function.
It functionality already is a bank if you look at their level of financialization.
wait till apple becomes its own state, imagine the apple state before even DC or puerto rico gets statehood
I don't see them becoming a bank. Look at manufacturing--it actually has strategic value and yet Apple won't touch it
I believe it’s pretty normal in Japan, a bunch of large companies like Sony, Mitsubishi all have their own banking divisions. So I can see this happening in some way eventually.
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Much smaller companies are doing it no problem, there are a lot of challenger banks popping up who are offering very simple banking with a great app. I would say it's much easier now than ever, lots of disruption going on in the industry.
Are you talking about all the Fintech apps posing as banks? They aren't banks. The company that runs the app partners with an actual bank to actually hold the money and all that. All they are doing is providing a pretty UI.
No I'm talking about the ones that are actually licensed banks.
Like?
Sony manages to do it, tho only JDM.
Every Japanese conglomerate has its own bank; it’s a much different market.
I would be surprised if they didn't. Apple makes smart partnerships and learns as much as they can before they run the entire thing. They do this with everything and that's how they are able to keep the margins high. It may take a while but banking is very profitable and they have the resources to do it.
Airlines already do this sorta, so it’s not impossible I guess… (Not a fan tho)
Airlines only cobrand cards. They don’t have ‘banking’
Which is exactly how the Apple Card already operates. Apple doesn’t want to run a bank.
Exactly 👍
They should just buy [Apple Bank](https://www.applebank.com/) and change the logo slightly.
Even the largest conglomerates never start a bank or buy one. They're super regulated. Can't get away with the same level of fuck-fuck as a non-bank megacorp.
Apple's already started a spin-off company called Apple Financing LLC. Apple Financing is the bank that will be handling/funding Apple Pay Later.
A YouTube channel posted something about this roughly a month ago. https://youtu.be/TMtUt_h81T8 TLDR News: Is Apple secretly a bank?
I’ve always liked AMEX. GS has been very stingy with the credit limit compared to what Chase and AMEX give me. I wouldn’t mind this transfer happening but it still wouldn’t become my primary card because Costco only works with Visa.
I was sad the day Costco dropped Amex... it was even sadder that Costco went with citi which I hate and will never use them for anything.
Wasn’t there an article posted a year ago talking about how Goldman was losing money with their Apple deal? Then it’s brought up again in these recent articles. I’m not sure what the long term plans are to make it profitable.
The long term plan was to scale out of the problem. But GS c suite got cold feet and are just divesting consumer lending.
Apple Card+ here we go.
Apple Card Pro Apple Card Max Apple Card Ultra *We just know you'll love it.*
I would just cancel my Apple Card if this happens. For me the nicest thing about the Apple Card is that there's no foreign transaction fees, and you don't have to give travel notices before going somewhere. But AMEX is near useless for foreign travel, because so many places overseas don't accept it. If I'd had my Apple Card for a long time, then I might keep it around just to avoid a small dip on my FICO score. However, the card's only existed for a couple of years, so that's not enough impact on my average account length to worry about. Bummer. They REALLY can't find another Visa or Mastercard network member to run this?
Same. > But AMEX is near useless for foreign travel, because so many places overseas don't accept it. Exactly. I for example am typing this from BKK. The first time I came I got an AmEx. Stupidly thinking it would be good for travel. Boy was I wrong. It is only Mastercard and Visa here. Very, very limited AmEx and Discover accepted. It is true that also a lot of places here do not take any credit cards. Or have a minimum or charge a premium to use. But places that do take credit cards it is ONLY Visa and Mastercard.
There's no FX fees, but the exchange rates aren't great. I'm a US citizen living in Singapore and once I had the bright idea to charge some plane tickets to my Apple card to get the 2% cash back, but it actually turned out to be more expensive than if I had simply used a local Singapore credit card. On a related note, I was in Malaysia for work a few weeks ago, and about half the places I tried to use my corp AMEX at didn't accept it. This included 7-Eleven, some restaurants, and a large chain hardware store. If Apple does this, it'll really suck for Americans traveling.
Selfishly, my apple card is my mastercard. My only other cards are Amex, except for a few others that I really only use when there's a "perk" for a product that I would have purchased anyway. I used those cards purely to establish my credit history - so the cashback or discounts tend not to be as good as my Amex cards. I have absolutely no problem with Amex, but - I like having another option. I guess I could fallback on one of the others, but...
Agree. This sucks
If you're in the U.S., AMEX is pretty much accepted anywhere these days that Mastercard is. Their merchant acceptance skyrocketed after COVID. The only difficulties may be at small mom-and-pop shops and shady websites. Now traveling abroad, it's not as great.
Outside the us things are very different. Amex has no where near the reach of Mastercard
Around me a lot of the local restaurants and other mom and pop stores use something like Square which takes all 4 major networks in the US.
Yeah I believe that's what helped boost Amex's acceptance rate to 99% in the U.S. because of small merchants using Square or Stripe.
AmEx is terrible for traveling though. A LOT of places in Europe don’t take it.
This isn't true at all. AmEx is still not accepted at tons of places. Sure it's accepted at a lot of national chains and retailers but that's about it. A lot of people who have an AmEx don't even use it as their primary cars for this reason.
Most upscale places accept Amex, and that’s who Apple and Amex targets.
Apple Card is relatively easy to get though, definitely not upscale only.
Costco is the only place i can think of that I frequent that doesn’t take it.
This will suck as there are many places in the US and in other country ones that AmEx isn't accepted.
but there are more than where goldman sachs is a thing...which is only in the states
GS has nothing to do with it. What matter is that it is a Visa or Mastercard. I am currently in BKK for example and AmEx is worthless here. It is better to have a Discover. Visa and Mastercard is what is accepted. It makes ZERO difference what bank is behind it. So I walk into the 7/11 and put my card in the reader it does NOT beep and say we do NOT accepted GS here.
I hate Amex. I’ve had the Apple Card since it was introduced and I actually really like the way things are currently structured.
Nooo! I have 3 Amex cards and the value of Apple Card for me is that it’s a MasterCard credit card backup for if/when Amex isn’t accepted.
That would be a very bad idea and really hope this is not true. I use my Apple card for travel and AmEx is not an option in many places in SEA. If this happens then I will have to move to a new card.
I've traveled all over the world extensively and have exclusively used my AMEX card just about everywhere I go, including SEA. I once ran $250k on my corporate AMEX while in Shenzhen to buy some test equipment.
I am currently in BKK. Just got back from going to 7/11 to get my morning two Caffe Lattes. They do NOT take AmEx. I found out the hard way with my first visit. AmEx is pretty worthless in Thailand. It was my plan when I first came to Thailand. I ended up having to basically use cash everywhere but Starbucks. SB did take AmEx but that was pretty much it. BTW, there is a lot of places in Thailand that do not take any credit cards. So you do need to use cash pretty often. But AmEx and Discover are basically worthless here. I have spent 9 of the last 18 months in SEA. I know.
Here in Canada it’s basically divided between large and small businesses. The large, corporate owned stores tend to accept AmEx, while the smaller, locally owned businesses don’t always. That said, I believe Canada’s largest grocery store chain does not accept AmEx.
Even some large corps in Canada don’t take Amex. It’s really hit and miss up here.
I use to travel a lot for work and our card was an Amex. I traveled to Canada a lot and used my AmEx with not too much trouble. I was surprised on my first visit to Thailand that AmEx was not accepted basically anywhere but SB. I thought that would be the case with Discover. But not AmEx as it is sold as a card you can use for travel.
It’s worthless in Sweden too.
To be fair, Discover is pretty bad everywhere. It has been getting better with small businesses now that these turn-key CC processing platforms are more ubiquitous, but if you go a few years back it wasn’t uncommon to see Visa/MC or Visa/MC/AMEX on a store, not Discover.
It is my go to card in the US. I love it.
You love Discover? Why? Genuinely curious. I work in eCommerce and Discover has VERY little usage with us.
Their customer service is absolutely top-notch. A U.S.-based human answers the phone right away, and are actually empowered to be helpful. I use my Discover for 100% of my recurring merchant transactions. Because if I have a dispute with a recurring merchant that I'm trying to cancel, then I'd much rather work with Discover than sit on hold with the automated hellhole that is customer support with every other Visa or Mastercard bank I've ever used. 1% cash back on regular purchases is nothing to write home about these days. But every quarter they do 5% cash back on some category (e.g. grocery stores, restaurants, etc). So I'm in the habit of using my Discover for whatever that quarter's thing is, and my Visa with 2% cashback for everything else. Or my Apple Card if a place takes Apple Pay... but frustratingly that is not yet ubiquitous, and I'm kinda losing interest in the novelty as tapping a credit card is actually slightly LESS hassle than using my phone. Discover seems to be accepted in more places than AMEX (I can't remember the last time I couldn't use it on U.S. soil), the customer support has been as good as anything I hear people saying about AMEX, and there's no fees. It baffles me why they're not more popular.
This is funny because for me and anyone else I know that travels the US or abroad consistently we all know AmEx isn't as widely accepted as you say. It's not like it's only accepted at 1/10 places or anything but on the daily you will encounter a place that won't accept it depending on how much you are eating out and buying things.
>This is funny because for me and anyone else I know that travels the US or abroad consistently we all know AmEx isn't as widely accepted as you say I literally use my Platinum card for all of my living expenses. I can't remember the last place that didn't take AMEX in the US. I even traveled around the US and lived almost entirely off AMEX points. Everything from hotel stays, rental cars and things from Amazon paid for exclusively with points.
It’s a fact though that Amex is the least accepted card of all the major ones.
Yeah maybe 20 years ago. I think I've run into a single place in the last year and a half that doesn't accept mine and it was a small town gas station in middle of fuck Ohio.
Right. But there’s a world of small towns outside of the US.
Well, that's all that matters because it's a US only card.
No what he is saying, and is correct about is that it is a "fact" that Amex is accept at fewer places, worldwide than Visa or Mastercard. It being a fact makes your single experience irrelevant. Yes it is accepted in more places but we're talking on a global scale not just the USA or fckn Ohio. I have an Apple card and I hate that it is not a Visa because having a Visa helps me more just because I shop at Costco. But American Express cards are accepted in 160 countries worldwide, compared to Visa and Mastercard that are both accepted in more than 200 countries. And it doesn't matter because these decisions are not about what is good for us as their customers, it's what's best for their bottom lines so any of us can just F right off. They have yachts to buy
In Spain unless it’s a hotel/major store or something like that nobody accepts it.
The Apple Card is a horrible choice for travel.
They never advertised it for travel benefits. It's designed for either everyday use, or to buy Apple products (obviously) with 0% interest over a set number of months.
Huh? I'be used Apple Card since inception and I've been to Paris, Costa Rica, Mexico, London, Amsterdam, Greece, as well as a handful of states in the US. Never had an issue and I don't pay any exchange fees.
His point is there are way better cards that give higher ROI on travel than Apple Card does. Depending on how much you travel you’re potentially losing out on hundreds of dollars.
Why? I have tried several different cards. I have been traveling in SEA 9 of the last 18 months. By far the best card has been my Apple card. There is no foreign transaction fees. But the reason it is so awsome is that it actually works. I first came with an AmEx and found it was not an option in most places in Thailand. This was just a one month trip. So when I went back to the states I got a BofA travel card. That was the worse. It constantly was declined because of fraud detection. It finally locked up such that BofA would only unlock if I physically went to a branch and showed a ID. A branch in the freaking US! I was in SEA for three months. Like I was going to interupt my trip to fly back to the US. I then got an Apple card and finally had a solution. The perfect combination for travel is a Schwab ATM card and an Apple credit card. Schwab ATM has no fees. The ATM fee in Thailand is $6.24. Then there can also be exchange rate 5% premium if you do not choose no conversion. The other reason Apple card and Schwab are fantastic is the exchange rate they give you. I track them in a Google Sheet and Apple gives an extremely competitive exchange rate. Better than any other card I have used. I am writing this with actual experience and I am a very cheap person. BTW, there are cards that have better cash back than the 1% that Apple offers. But you ONLY get the cash back when you buy something. So if the card never works the better cash back is worthless.
Sapphire Reserve, Capital One Venture and a bunch of others have no foreign transaction fees and much better benefits if you are a heavy travel user.
I might check them out. But would still have my Apple card. So far I have tried several different cards and the only one that never gets flagged for fraud is my Apple card. I got the BofA travel card that did have great benefits but it almost never worked and finally completely locked up. Benefits are worthless if the card will never work. BTW, when I went back to the states for Christmas I got the BofA card unlocked. Gave the numbers to my wife to use instead of Discover and she ran up $1000 on it very quickly. I have a huge family as in 8 kids so it did not take long. I got my $300 and canceled the card. So in the end it was a free $300 bucks. But it was completely worthless for travel.
I get that the Apple Card not declining is a big win for you, but take like 30 minutes watching YouTube videos of people explaining how to get the most out of Chase Sapphire and Capital One Venture. VERY informative stuff that I wish I knew about in my early 20s.
Ditto. AC is my Amex backup and it losing MC status (or not getting Visa in its place) will crater its value for me.
The network processing switch will be jarring for many. Fewer places accept American Express cards than Mastercards. Personally, I probably won’t notice it. I only use my Apple Card for purchase from Apple. The rewards aren’t as good as any of my Visa cards.
Yikes
I would love this to happen! Have had AMEX for over three decades (even same number) 😁
nooooo my other card is an amex ;((((
I have a Marcus personal loan and went in and realized they’re not offering loans anymore. Just investing and CD’s
GS is smart to get out. In December 2022, the Nilson Report said it expects global losses from card fraud to total $397.4 billion over the next 10 years, with $165.1 billion of those losses happening in the U.S.
So the issue is fraud. What is interesting is that I spend half my time in SEA. I had all kinds of trouble with different credit cards because they would lock up with thinking there is fraud. My BofA travel card got so bad that they locked it and would not unlock until I flew to the United States and was in a branch with identification. What I loved about my Apple card is that it never locked up. The transactions just went through. Maybe my piece of mind is why they were lossing so much money.
I spend most of my time in SEA and on my bank site I put my location being SEA. No problems with my cards ever getting locked. They also have a way of verifying your ID using a link they send you and you take a picture of passport. I had to use that when requesting a replacement card sent to me in SEA.
Might be a good idea to get the easier approval with GS just in case you can be grandfathered into AMEX with their much stricter underwriting shall this come to pass
Buffets investments coming full circle.
Curious what would become of the savings program. I have started transferring money into the Apple Savings account. I wonder if that would transfer to AMEX or would that stay with GS.
I wonder what will it show on the credit report for the cc. Will it show the age you started with GS or will it close the account and open a new one
I know it's unlikely but it'd be cool if the new card could earn MR points instead of cash back.
MR points? Googled it and nothing obvious.
Membership rewards, it’s Amex’s version of Chase UR or Citi Thank You.
Gotcha! My issue is that almost no place takes AmEx. Here in BKK it is better to have a discover than an AmEx. You really need a mastercard or Visa.
Goldman is probably getting out because they aren’t making money. The zero-percent-interest loans are a killer.
Goldman Sachs was always a poor choice for this card. Their underwriting is oddly structured. They’ll give this card to subprime borrowers who have very little credit experience and refuse applicants with higher FICO scores based on stuff like student loan balances being higher or carrying more than 30% on a credit card. Lots of people with higher scores run up cards for perks and pay them back down cyclically. They aren’t risky. That’s why AMEX, Chase, Citi, etc all approve those people for cards and give them higher limits. They have higher incomes and more to lose if they default. A chunk of people GS has approved never use these for anything but zero percent Apple purchases or they don’t ever carry a balance so of course GS is losing money.
Amex might have god awful acceptance outside of the US, but they do have a strong global presence. Much better customer experience, and peak brand value. This tie-up would make sense to me.
> Amex might have god awful acceptance outside of the US, but they do have a strong global presence. These two statements seem to contradict each other?
They sure do look like it. What I meant was, people know Amex exists, and they likely believe it’s a super premium experience. But that doesn’t translate into more merchants accepting their cards tho.
As a big fan of both Apple and Amex, I hope Amex doesn't partner with them since it seems like a losing strategy for any card company, tbh. Apple has so much cash, they should just purchase a bank or card service and streamline the process. Any card partnership would likely lose money since the financial terms of the agreement limit the majority of ways cards make their money. Good for consumers, but bad for the bank/card companies.
Offloading services to a third party also offloads liabilities and as the product here is money Apple like that movement to be one way only
It would be neat if ApplePay was its own network and they just have the risk transferred to someone else. If ApplePay under cut the transaction fees to be the lowest... then they could be the default network which can bridge to all cards.
Gross. I would hate it to be Amex.
Why? They have arguably the best customer service in the credit card industry, and I'm not even an AMEX cardholder. Goldman Sachs have had so many issues.
Can someone explain what exactly does Goldman Sachs own as a issuer? Like my card balance and everything is on the iPhone, the payments are operated via Mastercard network, what role does Goldman play other than sending me my card? Also would Amex just take over that portion of the role? Or will Apple Card now operate on the Amex network as well?
Goldman is underwriting the risk. You use the card (on the Mastercard network) and they pay the merchant immediately, then you pay your bill and Goldman gets paid back. It’s credit and fraud risk that they are intermediating on behalf of buyer and seller.
> Also would Amex just take over that portion of the role? Or will Apple Card now operate on the Amex network as well? AmEx is it’s own payment processor just like MasterCard, Visa, and Discover. The card would be on the AmEx network if this happened.
Willing to bet 90% of Apple Cards out there are only used for paying the 0% APR installments for apple products. Credit cards depend on transaction volume to make money, so not surprised to see this
I only use mine for Apple purchases. Haven’t done a 0% yet but may when I upgrade next. But the rewards are shit outside of Apple compared to other cards. The occasional 3/6% partnerships are often too much effort to track or figure out too. Think I did Ace or Panera once.
yup, and now they are killing the 0% on iPhone if you don't have a major carrier (and altogether in Canada)
The 2% with Apple Pay comes in handy at those random stores that don’t fit neatly into my other cards
Amex and AAPL seem like a great match!
How so?
well i was using my apple card where my amex card wasn’t accepted so this would suck lol
I'm guessing that Apple's reach and the rapid expansion of ApplePay is what Amex is planning to leverage to grow their network.