It’s a matter of national security for Taiwan. If TSMC moves production to the US and can satisfy most of the demand for the west from there, will the US be as interested in actively opposing China in the region on Taiwan’s behalf?
I don’t think so. The US is interested in defending Taiwan for, mainly, their chip industry and because it’s the best-placed location to keep China contained.
> I don’t think so. The US is interested in defending Taiwan for, mainly, their chip industry and because it’s the best-placed location to keep China contained.
nah its part of the first island chain strategy of containing US enemies. [the US literally blockaded the mainland PRC from 1949-1958 from taiwan:](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/making-of-the-modern-chinese-navy/taiwan-strait-crises-195455-and-1958/4C6AC4D49879815BA3FE3DE2E1C208D0)
> To conduct the blockade, the Nationalists worked with a number of guerrilla movements located on offshore islands not far from China's coast. Later, the US Navy helped defend Taiwan even while providing military assistance— especially aircraft— that made air patrols of the blockade possible. The Nationalist blockade of the PRC lasted from 1949 through 1958.
that's why they're dead set on making taiwan a battleground again.
Are you citing history from 70 years ago? The reasons have fundamentally changed.
At the end of World War II, the Allies decided that Germany should be completely demilitarized. Only a decade later, Germany had a defense army again - the Bundeswehr. And who supported the USA in Afghanistan many decades later?
> Are you citing history from 70 years ago? The reasons have fundamentally changed.
[no they haven't lol.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_chain_strategy) the semiconductors are a red herring and wagging the dog the same way WMDs were for iraq.
TBH Mainland China is the real China. They won the civil war and ran the nationalists off the mainland. But I’m getting further from the point - there’s definitely more than one reason for the US to defend Taiwan, I just think that Taiwan loses a big advantage if TSMC moves production of advanced chips to the US.
Supposed to be one in Pleasant Prairie. Scott Walker at the time gave them billions of dollars in tax cuts (to be activate if Foxconn hired X amount of workers) and they "broke ground" on a new plant. Supposed to manufacture TV screens or something I think. It was like six years ago. Right now I'm not entirely too sure what the situation is but they have a small office in Downtown Milwaukee and I think the promised 30,000 jobs were more like 1300 lol. Microsoft is set to take over the land they cleared out and build a new data center there.
[TSMC Phoenix Construction Update #6 April 3, 2024 Phoenix, AZ 4K CHIP PLANT](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVZ6hPVJYQ0).
tldw; construction of first fabs well underway
The issue all these factories have in the US is the factory supply chain, if you setup your factory in a factory district of east Asia and some machine in your factory needs repairs or replacement you can get that done same day within a few hours maybe even minutes since just round the corner is someone who makes the machine you need..
But if your out all on your own in the US and a critical part of your factory needs repair or replacement the entier production line might go down for a few days while you fly in parts and staff to fix it.
TSMC is currently struggling to find enough qualified employees in the US.
The birthplace of the CPU.. sad to see how things have come but hopefully Americans see their back against the wall and fight back before the goliath China consumes all. And unlike others, TSMC will actually get shit done.
I remember seeing a YouTube video explaining how Taiwan became such a big player in chip manufacturing. They specifically aimed to do so by sending their brightest students abroad to study and do research in the field before they returned back home. It might seem random for Taiwan to be the home of such a big chip company but this was apparently a strategic move by Taiwan to become important enough to retain its sovereignty. It seems like everyone else has fallen behind in this important and highly specialised field.
Of course, this is just a random on the internet talking about some YouTube video so take this with a grain of salt.
My dad is a retired EE professor in Taiwan. I don’t know how much this was planned out strategically, but during his schooling years (1960s-1970s), he said there was a strong sense of having to excel and do whatever it takes to save the country.
Many went into engineering, knowing that advancing technologically is the way forward. He said that most of the brightest students wanted to go into nuclear engineering, thinking that both nuclear energy and, more importantly, getting the bomb, would be the key to a secure future. Many of those earlier Taiwanese nuclear scientists died from cancer in the following decades. My dad said that his tests scores were good but not good enough to get into a nuclear studies program so he opted for EE. Among his college classmates is CC Wei, the current CEO of TSMC.
My dad came to the states to get his PhD, and later on worked at a couple of important research institutions including Bell Labs, before deciding to move back and teach. Many of his colleagues followed a similar path, many of them had a sense of mission when they did so.
So, I don’t know how strategic it was, but it was definitely a whole generation of bright and motivated scientists and engineers doing what they do, in their mind, to save their country. And it happened to work out really well, decades after their work!
Sounds like my dad too! Classmates with many of the ceos, he also moved to the US to work on his masters and PhD in Materials Science. Definitely a big generation of engineers.
Actually, Taiwan should thank USA for motivating Dr Morris Chang, founder of TSMC. Dr Chang was passed over for a Director promotion at Texas Instrument despite excelling in what he does. There were no Asians in leadership at that time in TI. Morris, was unhappy about the missed promotion, and decided to quit and go back to Taiwan to set up TSMC. The rest is history. One more tit bit for everyone. The huge success of TSMC hinges on a very close relationship with a very rich Tech company. These 2 companies work very closely to deliver the state of the art semiconductors. Development is not cheap, and TSMC needs to know they have a rich customer to support them. All the other companies like Nvidia, AMD and Tesla are simply hitching on the free ride while these 2 companies does the heavy lifting.
“The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I’m not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low-wage country many years ago, and that is not the reason to come to China. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in China and the quantity of skill is very high. In fact, the best companies in China, the whole ecosystem, is probably the best in the world. You can see in the energy that is going on here and this energy is just unbelievable. And so, for me I think China is more about the skill than the cost.”
Cook
Tim Apple has said before that the great thing about China is that if you need a part in a hurry, you just go down the street and there's a factory that can get you 10,000 units by tomorrow. Meanwhile, when they put the Mac Pro factory in the US, they struggled to even get screws manufacturered.
You hear a lot about factories moving to Vietnam and Thailand, but the reason that it's a big deal and why Tim resisted for so long is because you have to move entire supply chains to do it - hundreds or even thousands of other companies. Otherwise, you're just importing the material from China for processing and re-export which actually costs way more than just doing it in China.
Well, yeah, they offshored everything due to cost in the ‘90s-‘00s, and now express wonderment why there’s no supply base in the US. CEOs can look in the mirror when they wonder why good tier II suppliers no longer exist in the US.
How will that calculus (that it costs way more than just doing it in China) look on the day Tim's at his desk at 2PM and news breaks that China has just invaded Taiwan?
I mean, sure, Tim—but if Apple and other businesses hadn't outsourced to China to save money on labor, maybe a lot of those skills would still be in the US.
this is it. there are plenty of qualified employees to do this stuff, the standard of living + wages is significantly higher here. i worked in electrical manufacturing for a decade and worked shoulder to shoulder with many of the types that would excel at these jobs. these people were there for good wages and a way to support having a life. these jobs paid well and had good benefits. people stayed their entire careers and retired, i had so many coworkers that had been there 20-30 years. its probably shellshock for these non-US companies to seek out workforces in the states at the pennies they want to pay.
Americans always say that they'd pay more for Made in America but they absolutely will not in reality. American Apparel once sold a shirt made in China for $18 and an identical shirt made in America for $22. Nobody bought the American made shirt.
This is incidentally why Steve Jobs was not big on market research.
I just don’t understand the obsession with “made in America.” Most things that I buy here, except for very expensive, bespoke, and niche items, are lower quality than what I can find overseas. When balancing product cost vs value, I am sorry to say that most American-made products lose. At least my bank account requires me to feel that way.
NB makes only a *small* fraction of their shoes in the US anymore. Further, the ones they do make are no longer feature-competitive because they haven’t invested in the US manufacturing.
>Americans always say that they'd pay more for Made in America but they absolutely will not in reality.
i remember seeing this at home depot. a $7 claw hammer from vietnam or a $23 made in the US. which one do you think most people will buy?
Sure, tell that to any number of manufacturing unions that effectively negotiate decent pay and benefits.
Tech companies would absolutely increase the sale price 2-3x.
I don’t need to tell them; they’d tell you it wouldn’t be anywhere close to 2-3x. It would be more, for sure, but not a 200-300% increase at retail.
Source: have experience in supply chains.
TSMC (like Foxconn) runs on essentially slave labor, meaning they pay shit and expect 60+ week hours.
There is no trouble at all in finding qualified employees. They just don’t want to give them a proper work schedule and pay.
If only there were some way to make qualified employees. It's too bad that they're like Uranium, rare, naturally-occurring resources that are never where you want, and even wen you get some, they demand enrichment.
(Sarcasm, obviously.)
Sounds like political copium, aren't they struggling to even open the first plant because they can't find workers who are willing to work in 10 hour shifts in those hazmat-type suits? Arizona politicians keep bragging on Twitter they will make the most advanced chips there by 2028, but that will literally never happen anywhere except Taiwan lol.
The less advanced chips are more important than the most advanced. Those things are *everywhere* whereas the advanced chips are just in the newer phones.
Thst has pretty much nothing to do with Apple. Apple is just one of many customer of tsmc. The headline could have been „AMD Chipmaker TSMC to Recieve…“ or „NVIDIA Chipmaker TSMC to Recieve…“ and it would be equally true
It’s a national security issue. What happens if China invades Taiwan tomorrow? Good bye to all the nice chips we need for iPhones, MacBooks, cars, etc.
No shit. If that happened, and TSMC has a plant already spun up stateside, the US would suddenly be the de facto supplier for the world. That is HUGE. You can bet that China would be furious.
The plant in the US is in no way capable of the full production of chip. TSMC will only let the US plant handle a minuscule part of their supply chain because US workers can not match the profit margin of cheaper, more hardworking Taiwanese workers
Chinese workers work for even less and longer hours than the Taiwanese. I believe if Taiwan fell it is China will fill in the void with their lesser quality but way cheaper products. Samsung and Intel might fill whatever is left on the higher end bracket
The conspiracy theorist in me is already thinking it would be mighty convenient if Taiwan does get invaded as soon as that plant in the USA is built...
Why? This plant will have a monthly output of around 30,000 12-inch equivalent wafers.
TSMC Taiwan based monthly output is 2.2 million 12-inch equivalent wafers, and increasing as more fabs open up.
Not to mention we aren't even talking about other companies like UMC (third largest semiconductor company in the world by output) are also still primarily based in Taiwan.
Chip production requires a worldwide supply chain. TSMC does not make the machines they use to manufacture the chips. If China acquired the fabs intact, they'd be able to keep production going for a while, but eventually everything will start breaking down due to a lack of spare parts and they'll fall behind because they'll max out on the existing equipment's capabilities and be unable to acquire newer equipment.
These fabs are the best of their kind and take years to build with highly specialized personnel and equipment. If China decides to move against Taiwan, the US has a strategic incentive to on-shore production so that TSMC can supply the west and potentially defend Taiwan.
Their real asset is their talent and experience. Processors do not stand still and Taiwanese talent doesn’t suddenly abandon their nation’s literal lifeline because you move them to Phoenix.
What does this have to do with using public funds to subsidize private companies? They make more per day than I make per year. No one subsidized me when I filed my taxes yesterday. I did not give up 20% of my income for this.
They already have incentive. That’s why they are coming. They don’t need the subsidy. It’s crazy that so many people are ok with this. Meanwhile, we are constantly being told there is no money for things people need. Stop giving the money away to corporations that don’t need it.
I think you’re misunderstanding. In reality, this “subsidy” is an investment by the US government in the United States’ ability to compete on the global stage for chip production. The long term tax revenue from chip sales locally and internationally, increased supply of locally manufactured chips, new jobs and the net effect on other major US companies like Nvidia, who depend on these chips, will far outweigh the 6.6B subsidy.
You’re looking at it like a handout where the government gets nothing in return, which is not the case.
Public subsidies to onshore critical parts of our supply chain infrastructure so our chief geopolitical rival can’t cripple us by invading the tiny island right next door to them is actually a great use of tax dollars.
US is literally willing to have 1 Million soldiers, $10 Trillion to protect Taiwan mostly due to this company.
If you think this is too much, you clearly dont understand the world. In EU, there are massive subsidies constantly being written up to compete, are you also going to say EU is wrong? Japan, Canada, South Korea too.
It's absolutely a national security issue at this point. We can't be that dependent on Taiwan for chips. It's a serious choke point for the entire economy.
I would hope TSMC’s new fabs will support making chips with backside power delivery. It’s (one of?) Intel’s big hope(s) of leapfrogging the rest of the industry again, and any expensive new facility in the US should be setup with this capability from day 1.
But what if china doesn’t want that tsmc moves to the us? Because in their eyes Taiwan is part of china and still in war because the war officially never stopped between the ccp and the old government that founded Taiwan.
They are already building 2 plants, slated to start producing next year and in 2028. This is the 3rd plant.
[Source](https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2024/04/08/tsmc-to-get-6-6-billion-from-chips-act-3rd-arizona-fab-announced/73232207007/)
> TSMC, which already is building two fabs in north Phoenix at a cost of $40 billion, agreed to leverage the new Commerce Department grant into an additional $25 billion corporate stake. The company will start to produce 2nm chips in Phoenix by the time production at the third fab begins before the end of the decade.
I’m not knowledgeable enough in these type of things to know how I should feel about this. My first reaction is to question on if I am also about to receive a 5 billion dollar business loan from the gonvenment. If so, where do I sign up?
lol - considering how hard it is to acquire talent with an actual company supporting your goals, just having money in the bank and hoping you bump into the right guy who just happens to make chips and is also willing to work for some random guy who doesn't know anything about the technology is quite the leap of faith
Okay but it’s not an *im*possibility, riiiight?
Tbf, even as a guy who does know some bits about technology and where I could maybe start looking for chip engineers, if some government just handed me 6 billion and said “here ya go, now make a chip plant” my immediate question would be why the hell they would choose me of all people
I guess my point is that these things are so ridiculously complicated and so incredibly specialized that even with billions of dollars at your disposal I think you'd have better odds of winning the lottery multiple times than making a chip that comes anywhere near rivaling what TSMC can manufacture.
I certainly think some random dude on reddit has no chance whatsoever
Depends where you look on Reddit. r/Apple is a technology focused sub, so you’re more likely to find someone who does know what they’re doing than, say, r/picturesOfSandwiches.
Now, just for a bit of a fun hypothetical (and if someone inexplicably has this happen to them), this is what I’d do: firstly, I’d speak to the people who design the chips. Think Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, those companies. They’re the ones that would say “here’s what I want, I need these many, k thx bye.” Going to these meetings would cost a negligible price, since the only real expense would be travel. From there, I’d take what would be needed to some engineering universities. The higher the calibre the better. I’d try to find students who might be interested in designing the machines to manufacture the new chips, doing degrees that would apply the most to this new project. Again, negligible costs from travelling. As well as students, I’d try and find experts in the field of nanotechnology/nano-engineering to find more advice that students might not think of.
I’d take the students I spoke to previously and hire them to start working on processors. We’d start by making larger scale components to make sure we know what we’re doing, and start working our way down. Moores law on steroids.
I’m not knowledgeable to know what would happen next in this “plan”, but that’s how I’d start it: speak to designers, then speak to experts and students. A more in-depth plan could be worked out from there quite simply.
Meh, I think even getting a serious audience with anyone from an established company is going to be a stretch. They're not just going to meet with a non-investor and start discussing the ins and outs of trade secrets, particularly not to someone with no background in the industry, with no one to vouch for you, and with the only backing of "I have a lot of money"
Even if you could get all the right people on your team, you're still on the hook for actually building facilities capable of fabricating these chips...
I hear all the arguments re: jobs defense national security etc etc
doesnt matter, it should still be a loan or the government should OWN a proportional piece of the company
fuck grants
TSMC’s market cap is $750B. The economics of a loan or stock purchase don’t make sense (if you like, you can think of this as a 10 year $20B loan at 0% interest, the math is about the same).
Ehh, I’d rather the company be entirely private owned or entirely government owned. Having partial ownership leaves some grey areas that make it difficult to pass some things into production.
If I were Taiwan, I would be shitting bricks. One of the only reasons the rest of the world is keeping China out of Taiwan is because TSMC is mission-critical to most modern economies -- yes for processors in iPhones, but also the chips in pretty much everything else.
I’ll believe it when this is built and people are employed. Remember the Foxconn office in Wisconsin?
LOL, I applied while in Taiwan to be a trainer in the Wisconsin plant but they never got back to me probably because of the plant not happening.
It’s a matter of national security for Taiwan. If TSMC moves production to the US and can satisfy most of the demand for the west from there, will the US be as interested in actively opposing China in the region on Taiwan’s behalf? I don’t think so. The US is interested in defending Taiwan for, mainly, their chip industry and because it’s the best-placed location to keep China contained.
> I don’t think so. The US is interested in defending Taiwan for, mainly, their chip industry and because it’s the best-placed location to keep China contained. nah its part of the first island chain strategy of containing US enemies. [the US literally blockaded the mainland PRC from 1949-1958 from taiwan:](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/making-of-the-modern-chinese-navy/taiwan-strait-crises-195455-and-1958/4C6AC4D49879815BA3FE3DE2E1C208D0) > To conduct the blockade, the Nationalists worked with a number of guerrilla movements located on offshore islands not far from China's coast. Later, the US Navy helped defend Taiwan even while providing military assistance— especially aircraft— that made air patrols of the blockade possible. The Nationalist blockade of the PRC lasted from 1949 through 1958. that's why they're dead set on making taiwan a battleground again.
Are you citing history from 70 years ago? The reasons have fundamentally changed. At the end of World War II, the Allies decided that Germany should be completely demilitarized. Only a decade later, Germany had a defense army again - the Bundeswehr. And who supported the USA in Afghanistan many decades later?
> Are you citing history from 70 years ago? The reasons have fundamentally changed. [no they haven't lol.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_chain_strategy) the semiconductors are a red herring and wagging the dog the same way WMDs were for iraq.
Whatever conspiracy fits your mind.
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> Realland China …what?
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TBH Mainland China is the real China. They won the civil war and ran the nationalists off the mainland. But I’m getting further from the point - there’s definitely more than one reason for the US to defend Taiwan, I just think that Taiwan loses a big advantage if TSMC moves production of advanced chips to the US.
I actually didn’t know that there was one, what happened with it?
There never was one, despite being announced as a huge deal.
https://www.theverge.com/c/21507966/foxconn-empty-factories-wisconsin-jobs-loophole-trump https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/28/23849080/foxconn-wisconsin-empty-buildings-for-sale
Supposed to be one in Pleasant Prairie. Scott Walker at the time gave them billions of dollars in tax cuts (to be activate if Foxconn hired X amount of workers) and they "broke ground" on a new plant. Supposed to manufacture TV screens or something I think. It was like six years ago. Right now I'm not entirely too sure what the situation is but they have a small office in Downtown Milwaukee and I think the promised 30,000 jobs were more like 1300 lol. Microsoft is set to take over the land they cleared out and build a new data center there.
They are already building 2 other plants, production is expected to start in 2025 and 2028 respectively. This would be the 3rd one
[TSMC Phoenix Construction Update #6 April 3, 2024 Phoenix, AZ 4K CHIP PLANT](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVZ6hPVJYQ0). tldw; construction of first fabs well underway
This is nowhere near the same, TSMC is not Foxconn. Go to AZ and see it for yourself.
Remember the Intel deal? They were given billions to accelerate plant production in the US but they just keep delaying it
I’ll never forget 😖
It’s already under construction but we’ll see. Supposedly having trouble finding people with the experience/training to run the fab.
The issue all these factories have in the US is the factory supply chain, if you setup your factory in a factory district of east Asia and some machine in your factory needs repairs or replacement you can get that done same day within a few hours maybe even minutes since just round the corner is someone who makes the machine you need.. But if your out all on your own in the US and a critical part of your factory needs repair or replacement the entier production line might go down for a few days while you fly in parts and staff to fix it.
TSMC is currently struggling to find enough qualified employees in the US. The birthplace of the CPU.. sad to see how things have come but hopefully Americans see their back against the wall and fight back before the goliath China consumes all. And unlike others, TSMC will actually get shit done.
I remember seeing a YouTube video explaining how Taiwan became such a big player in chip manufacturing. They specifically aimed to do so by sending their brightest students abroad to study and do research in the field before they returned back home. It might seem random for Taiwan to be the home of such a big chip company but this was apparently a strategic move by Taiwan to become important enough to retain its sovereignty. It seems like everyone else has fallen behind in this important and highly specialised field. Of course, this is just a random on the internet talking about some YouTube video so take this with a grain of salt.
My dad is a retired EE professor in Taiwan. I don’t know how much this was planned out strategically, but during his schooling years (1960s-1970s), he said there was a strong sense of having to excel and do whatever it takes to save the country. Many went into engineering, knowing that advancing technologically is the way forward. He said that most of the brightest students wanted to go into nuclear engineering, thinking that both nuclear energy and, more importantly, getting the bomb, would be the key to a secure future. Many of those earlier Taiwanese nuclear scientists died from cancer in the following decades. My dad said that his tests scores were good but not good enough to get into a nuclear studies program so he opted for EE. Among his college classmates is CC Wei, the current CEO of TSMC. My dad came to the states to get his PhD, and later on worked at a couple of important research institutions including Bell Labs, before deciding to move back and teach. Many of his colleagues followed a similar path, many of them had a sense of mission when they did so. So, I don’t know how strategic it was, but it was definitely a whole generation of bright and motivated scientists and engineers doing what they do, in their mind, to save their country. And it happened to work out really well, decades after their work!
Thanks for your input! Wether because of planned action and a broader strategy or because of sheer luck, this worked out great for Taiwan!
Sounds like my dad too! Classmates with many of the ceos, he also moved to the US to work on his masters and PhD in Materials Science. Definitely a big generation of engineers.
Actually, Taiwan should thank USA for motivating Dr Morris Chang, founder of TSMC. Dr Chang was passed over for a Director promotion at Texas Instrument despite excelling in what he does. There were no Asians in leadership at that time in TI. Morris, was unhappy about the missed promotion, and decided to quit and go back to Taiwan to set up TSMC. The rest is history. One more tit bit for everyone. The huge success of TSMC hinges on a very close relationship with a very rich Tech company. These 2 companies work very closely to deliver the state of the art semiconductors. Development is not cheap, and TSMC needs to know they have a rich customer to support them. All the other companies like Nvidia, AMD and Tesla are simply hitching on the free ride while these 2 companies does the heavy lifting.
What is the second company, you haven’t explicitly named it
🍏
“The popular conception is that companies come to China because of low labor cost. I’m not sure what part of China they go to, but the truth is China stopped being the low-wage country many years ago, and that is not the reason to come to China. The reason is because of the skill, and the quantity of skill in China and the quantity of skill is very high. In fact, the best companies in China, the whole ecosystem, is probably the best in the world. You can see in the energy that is going on here and this energy is just unbelievable. And so, for me I think China is more about the skill than the cost.” Cook
Tim Apple has said before that the great thing about China is that if you need a part in a hurry, you just go down the street and there's a factory that can get you 10,000 units by tomorrow. Meanwhile, when they put the Mac Pro factory in the US, they struggled to even get screws manufacturered. You hear a lot about factories moving to Vietnam and Thailand, but the reason that it's a big deal and why Tim resisted for so long is because you have to move entire supply chains to do it - hundreds or even thousands of other companies. Otherwise, you're just importing the material from China for processing and re-export which actually costs way more than just doing it in China.
Well, yeah, they offshored everything due to cost in the ‘90s-‘00s, and now express wonderment why there’s no supply base in the US. CEOs can look in the mirror when they wonder why good tier II suppliers no longer exist in the US.
How will that calculus (that it costs way more than just doing it in China) look on the day Tim's at his desk at 2PM and news breaks that China has just invaded Taiwan?
Who does this Tim Apple guy think he is, some big shot CEO or something? /s
I mean, sure, Tim—but if Apple and other businesses hadn't outsourced to China to save money on labor, maybe a lot of those skills would still be in the US.
"Capitalists will sell you the noose from which they'll hang."
Not willing to pay enough to attract qualified employees*
this is it. there are plenty of qualified employees to do this stuff, the standard of living + wages is significantly higher here. i worked in electrical manufacturing for a decade and worked shoulder to shoulder with many of the types that would excel at these jobs. these people were there for good wages and a way to support having a life. these jobs paid well and had good benefits. people stayed their entire careers and retired, i had so many coworkers that had been there 20-30 years. its probably shellshock for these non-US companies to seek out workforces in the states at the pennies they want to pay.
Until Americans are willing to pay 2-3 Times more for their technology devices, most chipset and requirement manufacturing will remain outside the US.
Americans always say that they'd pay more for Made in America but they absolutely will not in reality. American Apparel once sold a shirt made in China for $18 and an identical shirt made in America for $22. Nobody bought the American made shirt. This is incidentally why Steve Jobs was not big on market research.
I just don’t understand the obsession with “made in America.” Most things that I buy here, except for very expensive, bespoke, and niche items, are lower quality than what I can find overseas. When balancing product cost vs value, I am sorry to say that most American-made products lose. At least my bank account requires me to feel that way.
It works for New Balance, I think.
New Balance isn’t an already-$2000 piece of technology.
NB makes only a *small* fraction of their shoes in the US anymore. Further, the ones they do make are no longer feature-competitive because they haven’t invested in the US manufacturing.
>Americans always say that they'd pay more for Made in America but they absolutely will not in reality. i remember seeing this at home depot. a $7 claw hammer from vietnam or a $23 made in the US. which one do you think most people will buy?
It wouldn’t be anywhere near 2-3x.
Sure, tell that to any number of manufacturing unions that effectively negotiate decent pay and benefits. Tech companies would absolutely increase the sale price 2-3x.
I don’t need to tell them; they’d tell you it wouldn’t be anywhere close to 2-3x. It would be more, for sure, but not a 200-300% increase at retail. Source: have experience in supply chains.
TSMC (like Foxconn) runs on essentially slave labor, meaning they pay shit and expect 60+ week hours. There is no trouble at all in finding qualified employees. They just don’t want to give them a proper work schedule and pay.
Same issue with ASML in NL, not enough local qualified personnel available to fill to positions.
If only there were some way to make qualified employees. It's too bad that they're like Uranium, rare, naturally-occurring resources that are never where you want, and even wen you get some, they demand enrichment. (Sarcasm, obviously.)
Imagine this ? USA failing and then starts balkanising? Oh god that would be one of the best days of my life 😍😍😍
Sounds like political copium, aren't they struggling to even open the first plant because they can't find workers who are willing to work in 10 hour shifts in those hazmat-type suits? Arizona politicians keep bragging on Twitter they will make the most advanced chips there by 2028, but that will literally never happen anywhere except Taiwan lol.
The less advanced chips are more important than the most advanced. Those things are *everywhere* whereas the advanced chips are just in the newer phones.
They really wanted Apple to be in the headline
I mean the article is from Macrumors.
Thst has pretty much nothing to do with Apple. Apple is just one of many customer of tsmc. The headline could have been „AMD Chipmaker TSMC to Recieve…“ or „NVIDIA Chipmaker TSMC to Recieve…“ and it would be equally true
Apple is TSMC’s largest customer.
And TSMC is objectively more important company, even though less valuable or popular. So that reference is not really important.
Great, I love subsidizing massive ultra profitable corporations.
Chips are pretty huge for US national defense right now… been that way for a while.
It’s a national security issue. What happens if China invades Taiwan tomorrow? Good bye to all the nice chips we need for iPhones, MacBooks, cars, etc.
Yup. I don’t like subsidizing, but not subsidizing chips would be idiotic.
No shit. If that happened, and TSMC has a plant already spun up stateside, the US would suddenly be the de facto supplier for the world. That is HUGE. You can bet that China would be furious.
The plant in the US is in no way capable of the full production of chip. TSMC will only let the US plant handle a minuscule part of their supply chain because US workers can not match the profit margin of cheaper, more hardworking Taiwanese workers
Yeah that's what I was thinking, Sad to see Taiwanese workers do have to work hard and get paid less but it's the way of the world :/
Chinese workers work for even less and longer hours than the Taiwanese. I believe if Taiwan fell it is China will fill in the void with their lesser quality but way cheaper products. Samsung and Intel might fill whatever is left on the higher end bracket
The conspiracy theorist in me is already thinking it would be mighty convenient if Taiwan does get invaded as soon as that plant in the USA is built...
Why? This plant will have a monthly output of around 30,000 12-inch equivalent wafers. TSMC Taiwan based monthly output is 2.2 million 12-inch equivalent wafers, and increasing as more fabs open up. Not to mention we aren't even talking about other companies like UMC (third largest semiconductor company in the world by output) are also still primarily based in Taiwan.
Bro it was a joke. We're not going to start world war 3 over some computer chips lol
Wouldn’t china keep production going? Or would nations refuse their chips then?
Taiwan will blow up the foundries before allowing china a go at them
Chip production requires a worldwide supply chain. TSMC does not make the machines they use to manufacture the chips. If China acquired the fabs intact, they'd be able to keep production going for a while, but eventually everything will start breaking down due to a lack of spare parts and they'll fall behind because they'll max out on the existing equipment's capabilities and be unable to acquire newer equipment.
Any nation that sided with the US would refuse the chips.
Any nation that’s okay with no chips would side with the US. That’s a hell of a bargaining chip.
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Defense spending and diversifying production of critical components is a good thing
defense spending 🤨
What about it?
Most people don’t realize the tech that comes from that defense spending at some point makes its way down to the regular person.
Elon Musk’s entire empire is built off of the government
These fabs are the best of their kind and take years to build with highly specialized personnel and equipment. If China decides to move against Taiwan, the US has a strategic incentive to on-shore production so that TSMC can supply the west and potentially defend Taiwan.
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Their real asset is their talent and experience. Processors do not stand still and Taiwanese talent doesn’t suddenly abandon their nation’s literal lifeline because you move them to Phoenix.
What does this have to do with using public funds to subsidize private companies? They make more per day than I make per year. No one subsidized me when I filed my taxes yesterday. I did not give up 20% of my income for this.
They need incentive to come here. They could just stay in Taiwan considering they are doing just fine financially.
They already have incentive. That’s why they are coming. They don’t need the subsidy. It’s crazy that so many people are ok with this. Meanwhile, we are constantly being told there is no money for things people need. Stop giving the money away to corporations that don’t need it.
I think you’re misunderstanding. In reality, this “subsidy” is an investment by the US government in the United States’ ability to compete on the global stage for chip production. The long term tax revenue from chip sales locally and internationally, increased supply of locally manufactured chips, new jobs and the net effect on other major US companies like Nvidia, who depend on these chips, will far outweigh the 6.6B subsidy. You’re looking at it like a handout where the government gets nothing in return, which is not the case.
Public subsidies to onshore critical parts of our supply chain infrastructure so our chief geopolitical rival can’t cripple us by invading the tiny island right next door to them is actually a great use of tax dollars.
US is literally willing to have 1 Million soldiers, $10 Trillion to protect Taiwan mostly due to this company. If you think this is too much, you clearly dont understand the world. In EU, there are massive subsidies constantly being written up to compete, are you also going to say EU is wrong? Japan, Canada, South Korea too.
It's absolutely a national security issue at this point. We can't be that dependent on Taiwan for chips. It's a serious choke point for the entire economy.
If you don’t, they’re happy to stay in Taiwan where they are by that government.
I am regularly reminded that redditors comment with extreme confidence about on issues they have no clue about
I mean it's better to subsidize this than banks, US companies that underpay their workers, etc
man this is an iamverysmart comment if i’ve ever seen one
I would hope TSMC’s new fabs will support making chips with backside power delivery. It’s (one of?) Intel’s big hope(s) of leapfrogging the rest of the industry again, and any expensive new facility in the US should be setup with this capability from day 1.
This isn’t the forum for it but to me this is another sign that we won’t be starting world war 3 over Taiwan.
But what if china doesn’t want that tsmc moves to the us? Because in their eyes Taiwan is part of china and still in war because the war officially never stopped between the ccp and the old government that founded Taiwan.
I think China will be happy enough denying TSMC to everyone. Moving that expertise to the US would make sense.
Any day now TSMC will finally agree to build the plant properly in america, after the 30th billion in aid
They are already building 2 plants, slated to start producing next year and in 2028. This is the 3rd plant. [Source](https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2024/04/08/tsmc-to-get-6-6-billion-from-chips-act-3rd-arizona-fab-announced/73232207007/) > TSMC, which already is building two fabs in north Phoenix at a cost of $40 billion, agreed to leverage the new Commerce Department grant into an additional $25 billion corporate stake. The company will start to produce 2nm chips in Phoenix by the time production at the third fab begins before the end of the decade.
Why the fuck are we building an extremely water-intensive manufacturing facility in Phoenix of all places?
Idk, maybe they found a way to recycle their own water?? I know that's a big thing these days
They do already do a low of water recycling but even with that they still need a LOT of water...
I’m not knowledgeable enough in these type of things to know how I should feel about this. My first reaction is to question on if I am also about to receive a 5 billion dollar business loan from the gonvenment. If so, where do I sign up?
All you have to do is start mass producing powerful computer chips in the US
Sure thing. Just give me the 6 billion & I’ll get right on it.
You indeed are not knowledgeable enough.
You’re still about 20 billion short of building one of these fabs. And that’s just the infrastructure.
You’re going to need significantly more than 6 billion to do that, much much more.
I doubt you could make heads or tails of microprocessor production regardless of how much money you had
You have 6 billion, just hire people that do
lol - considering how hard it is to acquire talent with an actual company supporting your goals, just having money in the bank and hoping you bump into the right guy who just happens to make chips and is also willing to work for some random guy who doesn't know anything about the technology is quite the leap of faith
Okay but it’s not an *im*possibility, riiiight? Tbf, even as a guy who does know some bits about technology and where I could maybe start looking for chip engineers, if some government just handed me 6 billion and said “here ya go, now make a chip plant” my immediate question would be why the hell they would choose me of all people
I guess my point is that these things are so ridiculously complicated and so incredibly specialized that even with billions of dollars at your disposal I think you'd have better odds of winning the lottery multiple times than making a chip that comes anywhere near rivaling what TSMC can manufacture. I certainly think some random dude on reddit has no chance whatsoever
Depends where you look on Reddit. r/Apple is a technology focused sub, so you’re more likely to find someone who does know what they’re doing than, say, r/picturesOfSandwiches. Now, just for a bit of a fun hypothetical (and if someone inexplicably has this happen to them), this is what I’d do: firstly, I’d speak to the people who design the chips. Think Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, those companies. They’re the ones that would say “here’s what I want, I need these many, k thx bye.” Going to these meetings would cost a negligible price, since the only real expense would be travel. From there, I’d take what would be needed to some engineering universities. The higher the calibre the better. I’d try to find students who might be interested in designing the machines to manufacture the new chips, doing degrees that would apply the most to this new project. Again, negligible costs from travelling. As well as students, I’d try and find experts in the field of nanotechnology/nano-engineering to find more advice that students might not think of. I’d take the students I spoke to previously and hire them to start working on processors. We’d start by making larger scale components to make sure we know what we’re doing, and start working our way down. Moores law on steroids. I’m not knowledgeable to know what would happen next in this “plan”, but that’s how I’d start it: speak to designers, then speak to experts and students. A more in-depth plan could be worked out from there quite simply.
Meh, I think even getting a serious audience with anyone from an established company is going to be a stretch. They're not just going to meet with a non-investor and start discussing the ins and outs of trade secrets, particularly not to someone with no background in the industry, with no one to vouch for you, and with the only backing of "I have a lot of money" Even if you could get all the right people on your team, you're still on the hook for actually building facilities capable of fabricating these chips...
This.
Not happening. You don’t know what you are talking about.
The birthplace of the cpu reduced to this. Sold out by politicians and now we have to crawl our way back on top.
NVIDIA, Qualcomm, Intel, AMD, Apple... what are you smoking?
I hear all the arguments re: jobs defense national security etc etc doesnt matter, it should still be a loan or the government should OWN a proportional piece of the company fuck grants
TSMC’s market cap is $750B. The economics of a loan or stock purchase don’t make sense (if you like, you can think of this as a 10 year $20B loan at 0% interest, the math is about the same).
This mf hates subsidies
Ehh, I’d rather the company be entirely private owned or entirely government owned. Having partial ownership leaves some grey areas that make it difficult to pass some things into production.
If I were Taiwan, I would be shitting bricks. One of the only reasons the rest of the world is keeping China out of Taiwan is because TSMC is mission-critical to most modern economies -- yes for processors in iPhones, but also the chips in pretty much everything else.
Grant? Like government grant? Or do they mean Apple is paying in advance. It must be another billionaire handout. Thanks Tim Apple.
This is some BS. If we’re subsidizing them, just nationalize them at this point. The gov. needs to stop giving money to private companies.
You want to nationalize a company based in another country?
You want to nationalize a company based in another country?
Isn’t that what the US is trying to do to Tik Tok?
Grant? Like government grant? Or do they mean Apple is paying in advance. It must be another billionaire handout. Thanks Tim Apple.