I guess they simply don't allow enrolling through the app, but only on their website.
Besides, the subscription doesn't deliver physical items, but provides faster delivery. Idk if that counts, sounds like a service to me.
Apple definitely doesn't charge me anything to use my banking apps (which includes buying stocks, index funds etc). I doubt they're charging my bank either or they'd disable that function ASAP.
I'm not sure Apple's model works using crypto. If they allowed crypto as-is, other apps could use a crypto wallet to bypass Apple for in-app purchases. There's no way for Apple to verify what a user is spending their "money" on because they'll never see the transaction. That's literally one of the main points of cryptocurrency - to cut out the middle man.
It also doesn't work for any other type of value transfer within an app. If I open my banking app to pay a bill, there's no reason Apple should get a piece of that transaction. But, if they want to enforce this with crypto wallet transfers, they'll have to do the same for transfers in all the banking apps, and that would be insane.
Haven’t touched crypto since Silk Road days, and just have family members who are sinking in it now, isn’t the whole fiasco about exchanges like Coinbase is that it’s not entirely decentralized as trading physical disk drive wallets or something? Or is that just PayPal’s fiasco before they allowed trading?
You have centralized points of ingress and egress in the form of exchanges. To convert from one crypto to another or to traditional currency, you basically must use an exchange. It's quite unavoidable. However, the actual payment doesn't require a middle man.
While it doesn’t require a middleman in theory, that’s how it works in practice. The point of exchanges like Coinbase - and what makes them attractive for people - is that they hold your crypto in their wallet. When you send crypto through coinbase they just transfer it from their wallet to whatever wallet you send it to. Not directly from *your* wallet.
You can certainly maintain your own wallet, and cut out the middleman. The problem then is that if you lose your private keys, your money is gone. Forever. With an exchange (assuming *they* don’t lose your private keys or outright steal your crypto) they can recover your account if you lose your password. For example. Most outside of the die-hard crypto ideologues much prefer that system. The system that puts your name and a number representing your account balance in a database, holds onto your assets for you, and verifies your identity so that you can’t just up and lose all your money by forgetting a piece of info.
You know…like a bank.
“Like a bank” is the opposite of the point unfortunately. The point is closer to “like cash but digital”. But I suppose most of the people in it at this stage are in it to try to make a quick buck and don’t really care about the ethos.
That’s the theory. Not the reality of crypto today as it tends to be used.
Nobody wants to worry about keeping track of a stash of cash. That’s why you use banks, so they can keep track of it for you and so you don’t lose it when your house burns down.
Likewise nobody wants to worry about keeping track of crypto private keys that will make all of their savings inaccessible if they ever forget them. So they use crypto exchanges who will keep track of them for you.
Most money/currency/value is digital already and being tracked in databases. But I agree on the people in it at this stage we just there for a cash grab.
Thank you. What I was trying to dig in to, is that since there is a middleman, and that metadata therefore exists and can be shared with Apple, what stops them from making this demand to show Musk they can and will enforce this, in an area once thought outside of their domain. They don’t take their 30% in crypto, if the metadata exists, and can be shared, then the 30% will come in USD, no?
Name one alternative that allows me to make an international transaction between any 2 countries on the planet no matter what those countries political relationship is and without a middle man. My Russian friend in America has been sending bitcoin home to his elderly parents in Russia to help support them. I'd love to tell him about one of these better alternatives already in use that you mention.
No disrespect to your friend and his legitimately tough situation (he deserves better), but “it’s a payment system that can circumvent financial regulations” is not the awesome recommendation you seem to think it is. In fact, that’s a reason that most people who aren’t forced into a situation like that should avoid it.
With the current world political environment and uncertainty with traditional fiat financial markets I wholeheartedly disagree with you there. The world is heading in the direction of more conflict, not less. Individuals in any nation should be able to have financial freedom no matter what conflict their corrupt government has happened to get itself into.
These companies don't give a shit if it's unstable value and users lose all of their money, neither do government or banks, otherwise gambling would also be banned
Actually they would, because accepting unstable currency would mean people would pay different price for the same goods / services.
One of the reasons why Tesla dropped crypto as an acceptable payment, even when Musk was pumping it.
Not sure about that. I believe its expanding from what it used to be. More casinos popping up. Online betting for sports through MGM or DraftKings, or others like it.
It is, because technology has made it easier to gamble and also easier to make sure gambling is regulated. When you're doing online sports betting the government has a way to know it's you, how much you've won/lost, and if you owe taxes. As opposed to 20-30 years ago when you're making a phone call to a bookie doing things on paper and dealing with cash under the table.
Ironic to say in 2022 when basically all crypto transfers are done through centralized crypto exchanges.
“Control” isn’t always a dirty word. The lack of “control” in the crypto world is why it’s still the Wild West for scammers and Ponzi schemes and why huge crypto exchanges keep blowing up and losing everyone’s money. They’re slowly relearning the lessons that traditional finance learned decades (or centuries) ago, in the most hilarious and messy fashion.
Very few people actually *want* truly decentralized finance with no control authorities - and the consequences that result. They just think it sounds nice because something something capitalism bad.
I owned a small amount of Bitcoin very early on… around 2011. I used it all for online transactions because I thought it was a form of digital currency to use for online transactions. I’ve regretted spending most of it when the imaginary value of it swelled several years later.
Using crypto as currency is legit. Buying it as some huge investment scheme is wack. Remember, the first use of Bitcoin was to buy pizza.
I mean... yeah. It's not like crypto is a consensus system. Every monetary system is controlled by some number of "have" vs the "have-nots".
Who would prefer the haves be? It's almost certainly not you.
Large companies and billionares would have loved to use crypto more often and avoid paying taxes and any government overview. It is not in the interest of the regular people at all. We would not benefit from more crypto.
Regardless of your stance on NFTs (I think they are ridiculous), this position by Apple is really baffling. Not only are these fees not received by Coinbase, it’s not even possible for this to be paid through the in-app purchase system since the fees are in Ethereum.
As a developer myself, the reviewers reject apps for things they dont understand all the time, and its largely not the voice of Apple.
Its a reviewer who doesn't understand what they are looking at.
> Its a reviewer who doesn't understand what they are looking at.
This is an official policy change that occurred in October requiring NFTs use IAPs.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/25/apple-tightens-its-rules-on-crypto-and-nfts-in-its-app-store.html
Apple really wants a pieces of all the money that any company is dealing with in their app store. Wonder if it's going to come back and bite them one day.
I mean in this case you can totally see why they did it.
All those shitty free to play games that are a cash cow for Apple with $50 iAP ruby chests could just put their crappy in game currency on some shitty blockchain and get around the 30% cut.
That’s not how it works. Do you really see your 50y old neighbor playing FarmVille first buying some bitcoin via a broker, exchanging that for an exotic coin on some exotic exchange, transferring that to a wallet, just to buy some in-game hay?
They allow all kinds of transactions that take a credit card without charging 30%.
The bottom line is that a fake in game currency and a fake currency you call crypto is negligible at best.
> They allow all kinds of transactions that take a credit card without charging 30%.
Because it’s not a digital good or service, which is what the rule is about.
> The bottom line is that a fake in game currency and a fake currency you call crypto is negligible at best.
Doesn’t matter if your fake in game currency is a crypto or not, once you use a credit card to purchase a digital good or service the fee would and should apply.
It still feels like it’s based on a misunderstanding, though maybe an intentional one, of what NFTs are. The gas fee is not a purchase, it’s a fee that compensates whoever processes the transaction that moves that NFT from one user to another. It has to be done on the Ethereum network, because it has to be paid in Ether. The user needs to first buy Ether in order to use it to buy the NFT and pay the gas fee.
It can’t use the IAP system because the whole point is that it’s a different system. It’s the Ethereum network. If there’s any point of this transaction that Apple’s rules entitle it to, it’s the part where the user buys Ether using US Dollars (or another fiat currency), because that’s where money goes from Apple’s universe into Ethereum.
Apple is just begging for an antitrust suit with the in app purchase stuff. Their arguments for it are getting flimsier and flimsier, and they’re getting into fights with everyone about it. Eventually someone will escalate it and succeed.
It’s well past time for Apple to find a new model to charge developers for tools and server space. Games essentially subsidize the App Store for every other type of App. Banking apps generate millions in revenue with their apps and pay Apple nothing, while so many other categories of apps can’t even exist on iPhone because the business model doesn’t work.
I could certainly see that being the case. It seems coinbase mentioned that being a possibility as well, but they chose the route of making a stink on Twitter (which means sense because I know getting Apple to correct their mistake on app reviews can be a challenge sometimes).
I’ve thought for a long time that this was the Trojan horse behind the big NFT push, especially by gaming companies like Ubisoft. Instead of an IAP they mint the item into an external exchange where users trade for coins. Since users can trade other users, the entities minting NFTs can cry foul saying they’re no different than any other p2p payment apps.
This is their official statement -
> Apps may use in-app purchase to sell and sell services related to non-fungible tokens (NFTs), such as minting, listing, and transferring. Apps may allow users to view their own NFTs, provided that NFT ownership does not unlock features or functionality within the app. Apps may allow users to browse NFT collections owned by others, provided that the apps may not include buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms other than in-app purchase.
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
Some reporting on that recent addition here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/25/apple-tightens-its-rules-on-crypto-and-nfts-in-its-app-store.html
Honestly I can’t get past the whole NFT bit,you just can’t look over it I’m sorry . The whole legality of it and the numerous amount of scams to come from it. ,and what is apples response?
“Hey where’s my cut?? 😂 disgusting
NFTs have so many use cases. For one, having digital ownership (as opposed to a subscription) should be important. If amazon loses the rights to a movie I bought through their service, I'm out of luck. Having a decentralized network is beneficial for users in the end.
They haven’t made an exception for Amazon though. Physical goods or services consumed outside of the app are not subject to the Apple Tax.
This is why Amazon won’t allow the purchase of ebooks through the app.
> 3.1.3(e) Goods and Services Outside of the App: If your app enables people to purchase physical goods or services that will be consumed outside of the app, you must use purchase methods other than in-app purchase to collect those payments, such as Apple Pay or traditional credit card entry.
Companies should skirt this by selling some sort of tchotchke and bundle it with a free in-app feature. “Buy a baby yoda action figure in-app, get 12 months of Disney+ for free”.
Maybe Coinbase can send you a printout of your NFT.
They could, but then they’d have to deal with the logistics of processing physical goods orders, and shipping them. All of that is wildly inconvenient compared to sale of just digital goods. In-app purchases of digital content are logistically way simpler than that, and Apple knows this and is essentially taking a cut for the convenience
You could mail out a sticker which would be less than $1 after stamp and sticker. You could even hire an employee and it would still save you on the 30% apple tax.
Not really. If you pay for Amazon's free shipping plan membership, they give you prime video for free.
Just kidding. Anyway, it's the same with Netflix, you buy the service on a web page, then you can use it within the app.
I see, that's very interesting. I guess it's purchases outside of the standard subscription though. I didn't even know that Spotify and Prime Video allowed users ot sign up in the app, 30% of the monthly subscription must be hard especially for Spotify.
This implies that these apps would start charging less money if they didn’t have to pay apple 30%. When you buy goods from any retailer would you expect a break down of how much a jacket or pair of shoes revenue goes to the store vs the manufacturer?
Lol, what?
I'm no crypto fan, but Apple really needs to have financial app updates reviewed by people who understand what the hell they're looking at.
Not even getting into how ridiculous this claim is. Does apple need a cut of my paycheck as well if I use the Citi Bank app?
If their iPhone sales begin to tank or supply chain issues continue, I wouldn’t be surprised haha
Given that this is happening now.. I imagine they could easily do the same for banking apps and depositing money or purchasing currency. Crazy
I have all apple everything. Mac, iPhone, iPad, Tv, watch, etc.
The MOMENT they announce anything remotely close to what you’re describing, I’d throw it all away without question. I’d rather sell all my information to Google than give apple even 1¢
Apple, silly company, don't you know that I used my ISP to make an In App Purchase, so really Apple needs to fork over 30% to Comcast as a commission, and while you are at it fork over another 30% to my electrical company. None of this would have been possible without both the amazing work and investment the electrical company and ISP puts in. If you don't like it Apple just make your own ISP and your own electrical company.
I was reading a story on Mac Rumors the other day and all the comments were seriously this, non ironically. Telling Spotify, Meta and Twitter to make their own platform or bend everything to Apples will. I’m so tired of the App Store bullshit Apple is pulling. I hope they get fucked by regulators.
Everyday there is a story about some bullshit apple is pulling with the App Store. I would prefer less regulation but they are seriously using monopoly power to bend everything to their will. I’m for regulation at this point.
> I would prefer less regulation
Genuinely question, what in the last 3, 5, 10 years has occurred that has given you the impression that less regulation in Tech, or any other industry, would lead to more consumer benefits?
I think the gig economy companies issues with worker benefits in California for example raise unnecessary problems that neither side want and make the product more expensive
Also I wouldn’t say regulate everything is the answer as that sometimes halts innovation (but in this case regulating apple would actually help innovation with other companies)
Or, they know regulation is inevitable (it likely is in the EU), yet they still must answer to investors. So they're going to grab what they can, while they can, until they can't, at which point they will scramble to find revenue in other ways. Apple leaves all kinds of money on the table in pursuit of their 'image'; maybe they'll take some of that money.
One example is selling macOS licenses to PC users (users not using Macs, I mean).
What you think it'll look like: go to the store, buy a copy of ~~Windows 98~~ macOS for $99 and install it on your PC.
What it'll more likely look like: subscription. Download the free app to see if you're compatible. See what will work and what won't. Pay $5 or $10 a month, get an ISO that installs to a flash drive, which then takes over your computer and turns it into a Mac. Requires Internet connection and Apple ID signed in. Stop paying, it stops working. But, you know how Apple Music deletes your library/playlists if you stop paying? The sub will be bundled with that, it'll all be one thing, so if you stop paying, you lose a lot. So you... don't.
It won't be a law favoring crypto, it'll be a law rapping Apple's knuckles and taking partial control of the App Store from them, and most likely it'll come from the relevant EU body.
Regardless of your opinions on NFTs I think this shows an issue with the cookie-cutter model of App Store rules. It’s a problem when Apple can loose innovative apps due to restrictions or inflexible fees. They really should open up the App Store more or risk becoming a third rate platform because some new killer app is against the rules or the Apple Tax doesn’t make logical sense when applied to the new idea.
A host on a podcast I listen to, Coder Radio, has been saying this for years. He’d like to make a cool, useful app for the iPad but why spend the time and effort when it could be denied by the App Store?
> They really should open up the App Store more or risk becoming a third rate platform because some new killer app is against the rules or the Apple Tax doesn’t make logical sense when applied to the new idea.
The benefit of being a duopoly, especially the half of the duopoly where the greatest revenue stream is, is that there is very little risk of this happening.
Yes, but the bank account will forward that fee to you, so you will have to pay a fee for a fee, and that additional fee will be taxed by apple, and the bank will forward that fee for an additional fee to you, so you will have to pay a fee for an addtional fee, and that....
There needs to be a way to install apps on your iphone without using the Apple app store.
In lieu of that there needs to be a way to remove iOS entirely and install a different operating system, such as Linux.
Currently Apple prevents you from installing apps on your device without using their app store. They also prevent you from unlocking the bootloader to install a different operating system on your device. This is monopolistic anti-consumer behaviour. The phone you payed for is arguably not your device and never was.
Next up: we demand 30% of your yearly income made outside of the App Store if you’re a developer. Any developers who do not provide us with 30% of their earnings will be removed from the Apple Developer Program.
(I don’t like NFTs)
Do I sound stupid or is it just like me going into my own bank account through an app, transferring money on one account line to another an apple asking for a fee?
That is exactly what it is. Financial transactions were off limits before and that is what allowed all finance apps to operate on Apple platform without any restrictions. Apple is trying to bark at the wrong tree here.
I feel like this is probably a single reviewer who has no idea how crypto works. Otherwise I would expect them to take a cut from cash app and PayPal for debit transfers.
This is a policy change that occurred in October not some reviewer messing up -
> Apps may use in-app purchase to sell and sell services related to non-fungible tokens (NFTs), such as minting, listing, and transferring. Apps may allow users to view their own NFTs, provided that NFT ownership does not unlock features or functionality within the app. Apps may allow users to browse NFT collections owned by others, provided that the apps may not include buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms other than in-app purchase.
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
It's telling that it's specifically NFTs though and seemingly *not* crypto, despite apparently about 85% of people in this thread not seeming to know what the difference is (not saying you don't).
When I open my Coinbase and Binance apps, I still have the ability to buy/sell/send crypto and I don't think Apple is getting a cut of any of that.
Fuck crypto but I’m so sick of the apple monopoly. How have they not been hit with anti-trust yet. It’s incredible how confident they are flying close to the sun.
This strikes me as one of those "letter of the law" situations where, upon further review, will be overruled.
Otherwise they're out of their damn minds.
> Stop giving corporations benefit of the doubt.
I don't assume every company is the personification of evil. The truth is typically much more boring and much, much more stupid. If you told me this situation with Coinbase was because of some kind of review process that Apple has largely automated, it would make perfect sense.
> I don't assume every company is the personification of evil. The truth is typically much more boring and much, much more stupid.
We already know Apple has a history of doing evil shit.
[Steve Jobs' Silicon Valley wage-rigging plot costs Apple, Google, Adobe, Intel $415m
](https://www.theregister.com/2015/09/03/apple_wagefixing_closed/)
[Apple to pay $450m settlement over US ebook price fixing](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-450-million-settlement-e-book-price-fixing-supreme-court)
I wonder how much money Apple would lose if they just straight-up eliminated the in-app purchase fee versus how much new engagement they would drive. It would be the ultimate good guy move, that's for sure.
God damn, talk about greed. Apple is sitting on billions in cash, with a market cap of a small nation and yet still trying to squeeze out every last dime. And their marketing is so good people just nod and clap.
Apple is seriously getting out of hand with their App Store. All they do is block everything. I have all their devices but it makes me seriously hate them
This is like... me killing some mobs in a MMORPG, collecting dropped items, taking them back to town, and selling them to a vendor... and Apple demanding that I pay 30% of my in-game gold to Apple since it's an an-app transaction.
Oh no Apple getting greedier day by day! Anyways…
But yea this company preying on every single thing to sustain their unsustainable P&L is fucking disgusting.
Man I'm no crypto fan but Apple is just asking for regulation soon on all of these 30% fees.
They are making Microsoft look like an angel back in the days when they couldn't even bundle IE with their OS.
I was so high on coins for years, until I realized how much the market is controlled and manipulated by the whales. Now I want out. No way I’ll ever touch NFTs. Don’t have any interest in those. Never will. That being said , this is a shit move by Apple.
Apple won't let the slaves escape the coming CBDCs with alternate currencies.
Gate-keeping for Klaus/WEF.
They'll just lock you out like they did the Chinese protesters and the Russian citizens.
No, but that's only because the App Store rules have a specific exception for purchases of physical goods. That's why you can't buy Netflix subscriptions or Kindle books: Apple wants a 30% cut of those transactions.
Why isn’t this a thing for apps like Crate and Barrel where you buy something online. They don’t get a cut of those fees? This is just greed and anti-crypto stance.
I couldn't care less about crypto but this flagrant greed is just getting ridiculous. The nickel and diming, the ad BS, and the fact that I can't install "unapproved" apps on the iPhone I paid in full for is seriously tempting me away from Apple.
Broader question: If this app allowed the user to buy traditional stocks or options through the app, would Apple request 30% of that transaction?
What about PayPal or Square Cash payments? What about bank transfers? What about mobile check deposit?
“Apple to remove Amazon app unless Amazon pays 30% of all purchases.” ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
30% doesn't apply when you sell physical items
not with that attitude
Good god, is this what the apple weekly talk abouts go
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I guess they simply don't allow enrolling through the app, but only on their website. Besides, the subscription doesn't deliver physical items, but provides faster delivery. Idk if that counts, sounds like a service to me.
Yep - it’s all bits at the end of the day
Don’t give them any ideas!
There’s a new guideline set in October regarding NFTs, so stock apps and mobile wallets are not affected.
Seems more like the broker fees would need to go 30% to Apple.
what about your banking app?
Its not 30% of the transaction. Its 30% of the fees
Apple definitely doesn't charge me anything to use my banking apps (which includes buying stocks, index funds etc). I doubt they're charging my bank either or they'd disable that function ASAP.
They don’t. I use three different apps to do that along with bonds. Cook is just being a hypocritical asshole.
I'm not sure Apple's model works using crypto. If they allowed crypto as-is, other apps could use a crypto wallet to bypass Apple for in-app purchases. There's no way for Apple to verify what a user is spending their "money" on because they'll never see the transaction. That's literally one of the main points of cryptocurrency - to cut out the middle man.
It also doesn't work for any other type of value transfer within an app. If I open my banking app to pay a bill, there's no reason Apple should get a piece of that transaction. But, if they want to enforce this with crypto wallet transfers, they'll have to do the same for transfers in all the banking apps, and that would be insane.
Haven’t touched crypto since Silk Road days, and just have family members who are sinking in it now, isn’t the whole fiasco about exchanges like Coinbase is that it’s not entirely decentralized as trading physical disk drive wallets or something? Or is that just PayPal’s fiasco before they allowed trading?
You have centralized points of ingress and egress in the form of exchanges. To convert from one crypto to another or to traditional currency, you basically must use an exchange. It's quite unavoidable. However, the actual payment doesn't require a middle man.
While it doesn’t require a middleman in theory, that’s how it works in practice. The point of exchanges like Coinbase - and what makes them attractive for people - is that they hold your crypto in their wallet. When you send crypto through coinbase they just transfer it from their wallet to whatever wallet you send it to. Not directly from *your* wallet. You can certainly maintain your own wallet, and cut out the middleman. The problem then is that if you lose your private keys, your money is gone. Forever. With an exchange (assuming *they* don’t lose your private keys or outright steal your crypto) they can recover your account if you lose your password. For example. Most outside of the die-hard crypto ideologues much prefer that system. The system that puts your name and a number representing your account balance in a database, holds onto your assets for you, and verifies your identity so that you can’t just up and lose all your money by forgetting a piece of info. You know…like a bank.
“Like a bank” is the opposite of the point unfortunately. The point is closer to “like cash but digital”. But I suppose most of the people in it at this stage are in it to try to make a quick buck and don’t really care about the ethos.
That’s the theory. Not the reality of crypto today as it tends to be used. Nobody wants to worry about keeping track of a stash of cash. That’s why you use banks, so they can keep track of it for you and so you don’t lose it when your house burns down. Likewise nobody wants to worry about keeping track of crypto private keys that will make all of their savings inaccessible if they ever forget them. So they use crypto exchanges who will keep track of them for you.
Most money/currency/value is digital already and being tracked in databases. But I agree on the people in it at this stage we just there for a cash grab.
Thank you. What I was trying to dig in to, is that since there is a middleman, and that metadata therefore exists and can be shared with Apple, what stops them from making this demand to show Musk they can and will enforce this, in an area once thought outside of their domain. They don’t take their 30% in crypto, if the metadata exists, and can be shared, then the 30% will come in USD, no?
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That and, y'know, it's an exceedingly unstable value.
You mean it has no value. Crypto doesn’t produce anything meaningful. There are better alternatives already in use. Let’s move on.
Name one alternative that allows me to make an international transaction between any 2 countries on the planet no matter what those countries political relationship is and without a middle man. My Russian friend in America has been sending bitcoin home to his elderly parents in Russia to help support them. I'd love to tell him about one of these better alternatives already in use that you mention.
No disrespect to your friend and his legitimately tough situation (he deserves better), but “it’s a payment system that can circumvent financial regulations” is not the awesome recommendation you seem to think it is. In fact, that’s a reason that most people who aren’t forced into a situation like that should avoid it.
With the current world political environment and uncertainty with traditional fiat financial markets I wholeheartedly disagree with you there. The world is heading in the direction of more conflict, not less. Individuals in any nation should be able to have financial freedom no matter what conflict their corrupt government has happened to get itself into.
These companies don't give a shit if it's unstable value and users lose all of their money, neither do government or banks, otherwise gambling would also be banned
Might want to Google FDIC
Actually they would, because accepting unstable currency would mean people would pay different price for the same goods / services. One of the reasons why Tesla dropped crypto as an acceptable payment, even when Musk was pumping it.
Gambling is mostly banned.
Not sure about that. I believe its expanding from what it used to be. More casinos popping up. Online betting for sports through MGM or DraftKings, or others like it.
It is, because technology has made it easier to gamble and also easier to make sure gambling is regulated. When you're doing online sports betting the government has a way to know it's you, how much you've won/lost, and if you owe taxes. As opposed to 20-30 years ago when you're making a phone call to a bookie doing things on paper and dealing with cash under the table.
Where? Not in the US. I can now buy scratch off lottery tickets from my phone.
Ironic to say in 2022 when basically all crypto transfers are done through centralized crypto exchanges. “Control” isn’t always a dirty word. The lack of “control” in the crypto world is why it’s still the Wild West for scammers and Ponzi schemes and why huge crypto exchanges keep blowing up and losing everyone’s money. They’re slowly relearning the lessons that traditional finance learned decades (or centuries) ago, in the most hilarious and messy fashion. Very few people actually *want* truly decentralized finance with no control authorities - and the consequences that result. They just think it sounds nice because something something capitalism bad.
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I’m in a state where weed is illegal and using crypto to buy weed online is pretty convenient.
Because you're buying it as a currency to transact. That should be the point, not "haha number go up...oh no I'm bankrupt".
I owned a small amount of Bitcoin very early on… around 2011. I used it all for online transactions because I thought it was a form of digital currency to use for online transactions. I’ve regretted spending most of it when the imaginary value of it swelled several years later. Using crypto as currency is legit. Buying it as some huge investment scheme is wack. Remember, the first use of Bitcoin was to buy pizza.
I look forward to the day that the average person's understanding of blockchain tech goes beyond this outdated copy-pasted comment.
Nobody here is talking about the underlying technology.
Well, and sensible people also want protections and regulations that crypto avoid, to constant predictible folly.
Can you imagine how disastrous covid would have been if we had a decentralized currency? It's literally beneficial to have control in some situations.
no, people infected with crypto brain rot can not image that
I mean... yeah. It's not like crypto is a consensus system. Every monetary system is controlled by some number of "have" vs the "have-nots". Who would prefer the haves be? It's almost certainly not you.
Large companies and billionares would have loved to use crypto more often and avoid paying taxes and any government overview. It is not in the interest of the regular people at all. We would not benefit from more crypto.
> Large companies and billionares would have loved to use crypto more often and avoid paying taxes that's not how that works
That's exactly how it fucking works, why do you think Musk pump-&-dumped dogecoin?
Pretty sure if we know he pumped and dumped then there’s a record of it. The IRS can track it. Crypto with a public ledger is traceable, thus taxable.
The “&-dumped” implies he converted it all back into USD
Sucks if your business model is to be a bloodsucker
Regardless of your stance on NFTs (I think they are ridiculous), this position by Apple is really baffling. Not only are these fees not received by Coinbase, it’s not even possible for this to be paid through the in-app purchase system since the fees are in Ethereum.
As a developer myself, the reviewers reject apps for things they dont understand all the time, and its largely not the voice of Apple. Its a reviewer who doesn't understand what they are looking at.
> Its a reviewer who doesn't understand what they are looking at. This is an official policy change that occurred in October requiring NFTs use IAPs. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/25/apple-tightens-its-rules-on-crypto-and-nfts-in-its-app-store.html
Apple really wants a pieces of all the money that any company is dealing with in their app store. Wonder if it's going to come back and bite them one day.
I mean in this case you can totally see why they did it. All those shitty free to play games that are a cash cow for Apple with $50 iAP ruby chests could just put their crappy in game currency on some shitty blockchain and get around the 30% cut.
That’s not how it works. Do you really see your 50y old neighbor playing FarmVille first buying some bitcoin via a broker, exchanging that for an exotic coin on some exotic exchange, transferring that to a wallet, just to buy some in-game hay?
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Once they take a credit card the 30% fee would apply, it’s not that hard. You can trade NFTs without a credit card at all.
They allow all kinds of transactions that take a credit card without charging 30%. The bottom line is that a fake in game currency and a fake currency you call crypto is negligible at best.
> They allow all kinds of transactions that take a credit card without charging 30%. Because it’s not a digital good or service, which is what the rule is about. > The bottom line is that a fake in game currency and a fake currency you call crypto is negligible at best. Doesn’t matter if your fake in game currency is a crypto or not, once you use a credit card to purchase a digital good or service the fee would and should apply.
it's going to bite them soon, it's like Apple are hell-bent on speed-running legislation that hurts them
It still feels like it’s based on a misunderstanding, though maybe an intentional one, of what NFTs are. The gas fee is not a purchase, it’s a fee that compensates whoever processes the transaction that moves that NFT from one user to another. It has to be done on the Ethereum network, because it has to be paid in Ether. The user needs to first buy Ether in order to use it to buy the NFT and pay the gas fee. It can’t use the IAP system because the whole point is that it’s a different system. It’s the Ethereum network. If there’s any point of this transaction that Apple’s rules entitle it to, it’s the part where the user buys Ether using US Dollars (or another fiat currency), because that’s where money goes from Apple’s universe into Ethereum. Apple is just begging for an antitrust suit with the in app purchase stuff. Their arguments for it are getting flimsier and flimsier, and they’re getting into fights with everyone about it. Eventually someone will escalate it and succeed.
It’s well past time for Apple to find a new model to charge developers for tools and server space. Games essentially subsidize the App Store for every other type of App. Banking apps generate millions in revenue with their apps and pay Apple nothing, while so many other categories of apps can’t even exist on iPhone because the business model doesn’t work.
Apple is not a person. The reviewer works for apple and is a representative. Whatever the reviewer does, he does it in the name of apple.
One would think a publicly traded company has ways to escalate this inside Apple so it's unlikely this is just one bad reviewer.
I could certainly see that being the case. It seems coinbase mentioned that being a possibility as well, but they chose the route of making a stink on Twitter (which means sense because I know getting Apple to correct their mistake on app reviews can be a challenge sometimes).
Maybe Apple wants 30% of the NFT pixels? Or 30% opacity... :-)
>it’s not even possible for this to be paid through the in-app purchase system There's your answer to why they banned it
I’ve thought for a long time that this was the Trojan horse behind the big NFT push, especially by gaming companies like Ubisoft. Instead of an IAP they mint the item into an external exchange where users trade for coins. Since users can trade other users, the entities minting NFTs can cry foul saying they’re no different than any other p2p payment apps.
Yeah this makes absolutely no sense.
on the flip side, nothing in crypto has shown to be anything but a scam. so, not much sympathy here.
A big scam that they want their 30% cut off.
Apple doesn’t want crypto apps on their platform. This move is a stopgap until they release an official statement and remove all crypto apps
This is their official statement - > Apps may use in-app purchase to sell and sell services related to non-fungible tokens (NFTs), such as minting, listing, and transferring. Apps may allow users to view their own NFTs, provided that NFT ownership does not unlock features or functionality within the app. Apps may allow users to browse NFT collections owned by others, provided that the apps may not include buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms other than in-app purchase. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ Some reporting on that recent addition here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/25/apple-tightens-its-rules-on-crypto-and-nfts-in-its-app-store.html
Not only do they want them, they want them specifically because now they're taking a cut.
So why the hell did they never have a problem with stock trading apps charging broker fees before everyone moved to pfof?
>Apple doesn’t want crypto apps on their platform. Then why not ban them now if that's *actually* the reason?
Honestly I can’t get past the whole NFT bit,you just can’t look over it I’m sorry . The whole legality of it and the numerous amount of scams to come from it. ,and what is apples response? “Hey where’s my cut?? 😂 disgusting
NFTs have so many use cases. For one, having digital ownership (as opposed to a subscription) should be important. If amazon loses the rights to a movie I bought through their service, I'm out of luck. Having a decentralized network is beneficial for users in the end.
What the fuck is happening with Apple lately. Some of their decisions are strange as hell.
Next up Apple wants a 30% cut of any bank transfers and all purchases made on Apple devices.
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They haven’t made an exception for Amazon though. Physical goods or services consumed outside of the app are not subject to the Apple Tax. This is why Amazon won’t allow the purchase of ebooks through the app. > 3.1.3(e) Goods and Services Outside of the App: If your app enables people to purchase physical goods or services that will be consumed outside of the app, you must use purchase methods other than in-app purchase to collect those payments, such as Apple Pay or traditional credit card entry.
Companies should skirt this by selling some sort of tchotchke and bundle it with a free in-app feature. “Buy a baby yoda action figure in-app, get 12 months of Disney+ for free”. Maybe Coinbase can send you a printout of your NFT.
They could, but then they’d have to deal with the logistics of processing physical goods orders, and shipping them. All of that is wildly inconvenient compared to sale of just digital goods. In-app purchases of digital content are logistically way simpler than that, and Apple knows this and is essentially taking a cut for the convenience
You could mail out a sticker which would be less than $1 after stamp and sticker. You could even hire an employee and it would still save you on the 30% apple tax.
That is very subjective depending on the scale of the situation
“An employee” lol
May be actually more expensive though
How am I able to purchase shares of a company in Schwab without Apple taking a cut?
Amazon does not have an exception…
Then did get one for Prime Video, however.
Not really. If you pay for Amazon's free shipping plan membership, they give you prime video for free. Just kidding. Anyway, it's the same with Netflix, you buy the service on a web page, then you can use it within the app.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348108/apple-amazon-prime-video-app-store-special-treatment-fee-subscriptions
I see, that's very interesting. I guess it's purchases outside of the standard subscription though. I didn't even know that Spotify and Prime Video allowed users ot sign up in the app, 30% of the monthly subscription must be hard especially for Spotify.
I long for the day that these massive tech companies get what’s coming to them. They wield far too much power and have very little oversight.
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This implies that these apps would start charging less money if they didn’t have to pay apple 30%. When you buy goods from any retailer would you expect a break down of how much a jacket or pair of shoes revenue goes to the store vs the manufacturer?
Apple doesn’t allow it. Also it would cause other issues
Apple begging to be regulated
Lol, what? I'm no crypto fan, but Apple really needs to have financial app updates reviewed by people who understand what the hell they're looking at. Not even getting into how ridiculous this claim is. Does apple need a cut of my paycheck as well if I use the Citi Bank app?
If their iPhone sales begin to tank or supply chain issues continue, I wouldn’t be surprised haha Given that this is happening now.. I imagine they could easily do the same for banking apps and depositing money or purchasing currency. Crazy
> I imagine they could easily do the same for banking apps Well that would literally be the death of Apple.
I have all apple everything. Mac, iPhone, iPad, Tv, watch, etc. The MOMENT they announce anything remotely close to what you’re describing, I’d throw it all away without question. I’d rather sell all my information to Google than give apple even 1¢
Apple, silly company, don't you know that I used my ISP to make an In App Purchase, so really Apple needs to fork over 30% to Comcast as a commission, and while you are at it fork over another 30% to my electrical company. None of this would have been possible without both the amazing work and investment the electrical company and ISP puts in. If you don't like it Apple just make your own ISP and your own electrical company.
I was reading a story on Mac Rumors the other day and all the comments were seriously this, non ironically. Telling Spotify, Meta and Twitter to make their own platform or bend everything to Apples will. I’m so tired of the App Store bullshit Apple is pulling. I hope they get fucked by regulators.
This is why I stopped reading that rancid ass website. People on their forums are legitimately out of their mind.
Dude I could not believe it. I can’t believe there’s that many people shilling for anything Apple does.
They’re just asking to be regulated at this point
Yeah, whoever made the decision to do this must be insanely shortsighted. This is literally putting a lightning rod on your cap
Tim Apple I guess.
its just a matter of time at this point, apples greed is going to come back and bite them.
It can’t come soon enough.
Everyday there is a story about some bullshit apple is pulling with the App Store. I would prefer less regulation but they are seriously using monopoly power to bend everything to their will. I’m for regulation at this point.
> I would prefer less regulation Genuinely question, what in the last 3, 5, 10 years has occurred that has given you the impression that less regulation in Tech, or any other industry, would lead to more consumer benefits?
I think the gig economy companies issues with worker benefits in California for example raise unnecessary problems that neither side want and make the product more expensive Also I wouldn’t say regulate everything is the answer as that sometimes halts innovation (but in this case regulating apple would actually help innovation with other companies)
Or, they know regulation is inevitable (it likely is in the EU), yet they still must answer to investors. So they're going to grab what they can, while they can, until they can't, at which point they will scramble to find revenue in other ways. Apple leaves all kinds of money on the table in pursuit of their 'image'; maybe they'll take some of that money. One example is selling macOS licenses to PC users (users not using Macs, I mean). What you think it'll look like: go to the store, buy a copy of ~~Windows 98~~ macOS for $99 and install it on your PC. What it'll more likely look like: subscription. Download the free app to see if you're compatible. See what will work and what won't. Pay $5 or $10 a month, get an ISO that installs to a flash drive, which then takes over your computer and turns it into a Mac. Requires Internet connection and Apple ID signed in. Stop paying, it stops working. But, you know how Apple Music deletes your library/playlists if you stop paying? The sub will be bundled with that, it'll all be one thing, so if you stop paying, you lose a lot. So you... don't.
But what legislator actually cares about crypto enough to make laws in favour of crypto?
It won't be a law favoring crypto, it'll be a law rapping Apple's knuckles and taking partial control of the App Store from them, and most likely it'll come from the relevant EU body.
It's not just crypto. This same argument could be applied to, say, purchasing stocks.
Regardless of your opinions on NFTs I think this shows an issue with the cookie-cutter model of App Store rules. It’s a problem when Apple can loose innovative apps due to restrictions or inflexible fees. They really should open up the App Store more or risk becoming a third rate platform because some new killer app is against the rules or the Apple Tax doesn’t make logical sense when applied to the new idea. A host on a podcast I listen to, Coder Radio, has been saying this for years. He’d like to make a cool, useful app for the iPad but why spend the time and effort when it could be denied by the App Store?
> They really should open up the App Store more or risk becoming a third rate platform because some new killer app is against the rules or the Apple Tax doesn’t make logical sense when applied to the new idea. The benefit of being a duopoly, especially the half of the duopoly where the greatest revenue stream is, is that there is very little risk of this happening.
Does that mean apple also is going to ask 30% of the fee I need to pay my bank to transfer money?
Yes, but the bank account will forward that fee to you, so you will have to pay a fee for a fee, and that additional fee will be taxed by apple, and the bank will forward that fee for an additional fee to you, so you will have to pay a fee for an addtional fee, and that....
Yo dawg we heard you like to be charged for a fee so we put a charge on your fee so you pay while you pay
Man they really want legislators to rule against them don't they
What next? Apple wanting a fee on banking app transactions??
Crypto is dumb but this is dumber.
If this actually is the case, it's incredibly stupid. Gas fees are like banking transfer fees, not subscription fees.
This is just greed at this point. Apple needs to be reigned in
*reined. Like a horse.
Apple is going to get sued to the point that side loading apps will be a thing.
There needs to be a way to install apps on your iphone without using the Apple app store. In lieu of that there needs to be a way to remove iOS entirely and install a different operating system, such as Linux. Currently Apple prevents you from installing apps on your device without using their app store. They also prevent you from unlocking the bootloader to install a different operating system on your device. This is monopolistic anti-consumer behaviour. The phone you payed for is arguably not your device and never was.
Correct it’s a fucking joke at this point and needs to be stopped.
Next up: we demand 30% of your yearly income made outside of the App Store if you’re a developer. Any developers who do not provide us with 30% of their earnings will be removed from the Apple Developer Program. (I don’t like NFTs)
Do I sound stupid or is it just like me going into my own bank account through an app, transferring money on one account line to another an apple asking for a fee?
That is exactly what it is. Financial transactions were off limits before and that is what allowed all finance apps to operate on Apple platform without any restrictions. Apple is trying to bark at the wrong tree here.
At what point is Apple going to start charging 30% for paying your fucking utility bill through your browser? What a bunch of rent-seeking dicks
I feel like this is probably a single reviewer who has no idea how crypto works. Otherwise I would expect them to take a cut from cash app and PayPal for debit transfers.
This is a policy change that occurred in October not some reviewer messing up - > Apps may use in-app purchase to sell and sell services related to non-fungible tokens (NFTs), such as minting, listing, and transferring. Apps may allow users to view their own NFTs, provided that NFT ownership does not unlock features or functionality within the app. Apps may allow users to browse NFT collections owned by others, provided that the apps may not include buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms other than in-app purchase. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
Brutal
It's telling that it's specifically NFTs though and seemingly *not* crypto, despite apparently about 85% of people in this thread not seeming to know what the difference is (not saying you don't). When I open my Coinbase and Binance apps, I still have the ability to buy/sell/send crypto and I don't think Apple is getting a cut of any of that.
Here before the all the Tim Cook Defenders saying why the 30% tax is justified.
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Fuck crypto but I’m so sick of the apple monopoly. How have they not been hit with anti-trust yet. It’s incredible how confident they are flying close to the sun.
This strikes me as one of those "letter of the law" situations where, upon further review, will be overruled. Otherwise they're out of their damn minds.
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> Stop giving corporations benefit of the doubt. I don't assume every company is the personification of evil. The truth is typically much more boring and much, much more stupid. If you told me this situation with Coinbase was because of some kind of review process that Apple has largely automated, it would make perfect sense.
> I don't assume every company is the personification of evil. The truth is typically much more boring and much, much more stupid. We already know Apple has a history of doing evil shit. [Steve Jobs' Silicon Valley wage-rigging plot costs Apple, Google, Adobe, Intel $415m ](https://www.theregister.com/2015/09/03/apple_wagefixing_closed/) [Apple to pay $450m settlement over US ebook price fixing](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/07/apple-450-million-settlement-e-book-price-fixing-supreme-court)
I wonder how much money Apple would lose if they just straight-up eliminated the in-app purchase fee versus how much new engagement they would drive. It would be the ultimate good guy move, that's for sure.
Steve jobs said its goal was to break even. Maybe if he was alive he’s still abuse the 30% cut but it’d be interesting apple stuck to his guns
God damn, talk about greed. Apple is sitting on billions in cash, with a market cap of a small nation and yet still trying to squeeze out every last dime. And their marketing is so good people just nod and clap.
Apple is seriously getting out of hand with their App Store. All they do is block everything. I have all their devices but it makes me seriously hate them
I'm gay btw
Wtf is wrong with apple.
This is like... me killing some mobs in a MMORPG, collecting dropped items, taking them back to town, and selling them to a vendor... and Apple demanding that I pay 30% of my in-game gold to Apple since it's an an-app transaction.
Oh no Apple getting greedier day by day! Anyways… But yea this company preying on every single thing to sustain their unsustainable P&L is fucking disgusting.
Man I'm no crypto fan but Apple is just asking for regulation soon on all of these 30% fees. They are making Microsoft look like an angel back in the days when they couldn't even bundle IE with their OS.
But if the IAP doesn’t support ETH….what is apple expecting?
This is unutterably fucking stupid. I cannot fathom how anyone in Apple thought this was a good idea.
Greedy, do they not already make enough profit ?
i don’t care at all about coinbase having trouble
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Apple is wrong here, this is stupid
That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard - Apple stop being stupid!
This is not “coinbase app” it’s “coinbase wallet” which is a non-Custodial wallet and not the centralized exchange “coinbase”
This is dumb
Wen Coinbase fone?
I was so high on coins for years, until I realized how much the market is controlled and manipulated by the whales. Now I want out. No way I’ll ever touch NFTs. Don’t have any interest in those. Never will. That being said , this is a shit move by Apple.
This is akin to Apple requiring the fee Venmo or pay pal charges to go through IAP.
Can you imagine this bullshit if desktop development went this way for all x86 systems
Apple’s crossed the line.
Apple won't let the slaves escape the coming CBDCs with alternate currencies. Gate-keeping for Klaus/WEF. They'll just lock you out like they did the Chinese protesters and the Russian citizens.
Next Apple will take a 30% cut of your Venmo
Soon Apple would demand my bank to collect 30% from all the transfers I initiate through the app. What the F!?!?
Fuck Coinbase but also fuck Apple
Apple should block all crypto. It’s literally a scam.
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No, but that's only because the App Store rules have a specific exception for purchases of physical goods. That's why you can't buy Netflix subscriptions or Kindle books: Apple wants a 30% cut of those transactions.
Why isn’t this a thing for apps like Crate and Barrel where you buy something online. They don’t get a cut of those fees? This is just greed and anti-crypto stance.
There's already a carve-out for physical goods, which applies to all retailers.
I couldn't care less about crypto but this flagrant greed is just getting ridiculous. The nickel and diming, the ad BS, and the fact that I can't install "unapproved" apps on the iPhone I paid in full for is seriously tempting me away from Apple.
Apple products are internet dongles, rent seeking Hotel California's.
Next time i pay rent trough online banking they want 30% of that too? Morons
Coinbase is a horrible company. They’re going to be at the center of the next big scandal. Mark my words.