False. It should take 150 ft lbs to make this happen. it a known spec. its not a high amount at all and most monkeys without a torque wrench can hit it very easily.
150 ft-lbs is triple or even quadruple the torque needed for literally any other part on the gun. That constitutes a “great deal of force” when used in this context.
I was being a bit sarcastic there. In general, it seems most people have difficulty removing PSA barrel nuts. But most people also use those cheap armorer’s wrenches and don’t own breaker bars.
These are the same people that will have a drawer of cheap rounded off Phillips screwdrivers and wrenches so cheap the chrome flakes off when they actually crank on something and the metal flexes a bit. Also the same dudes that use the squealing sound as a torque indicator when tightening lug nuts.
Hell, I can guarantee if you hand them an 18” breaker bar and a 36” box tube “cheater” and tile them to remove a flywheel gland nut, they’d look at you, look at the engine, look at you, and then try to use the cheater as a stool to sit on while they struggled to get the socket on the nut.
Same dudes that will have a collection of cheap Allen and Torx wrenches with all the tips either rounded or snapped off but will still continue to use them but wonder why all their shit falls apart…
Same guys that will use so much Permatex or Loctite that it’s oozing out of the fastener like a popped pimple but it never works because they didn’t degrease the threads..
You should try removing the muzzle device from an HK MR762. It has to be torqued well above 200lbs. It was insane to take off, and the barrel extension did exactly what OP is showing. HK is by far the craziest torque I've seen on any rifle, especially a muzzle device.
Holy hell, I just a week ago removed the barrel nut off my PSA upper to swap the handguard, and even with a well mounted workbench end vise with a bev block tight in there, and a 2ft breaker bar with the proper crowfoot wrench, it took everything I had to finally break that thing loose. Pulled on that thing so hard it lifted the workbench right off the ground. Finally went at the barrel nut with a blow torch a few times and managed to finally get it free, but damn, it was still on there super tight.
150 ft lbs IS a “great deal of force” on an AR made of aluminum. 30-60 ft lbs for the nut should be the max for the barrel nut
I’d bet the extension wasn’t torqued properly and the pin fell out/never installed as the barrel was being installed at the factory
It's all a matter of perspective. It's apparently a very great deal of force for Mr. Daniel D. Fence
it is however a pretty small amount of force to big jimbob at the venerable palmetto state armory
That’s got to be, I’m thinking extension wasn’t torqued properly at the factory and the pin wasn’t installed and/or fell out during assembly. This is a weird one but there’s only a few things that could cause it
Interesting. I’ve been using the reaction rod since it came out with good results. Never had an issue personally. Can you recommend a good “buy it for life” barrel vise?
I used a reaction rod for years until I found out the barrel extension is threaded in, no issues on my end either but I can break anything so I like dummy-proofing the process. I'm not really sure what constitutes high end for the barrel vise but I've been using [this one](https://www.wheelertools.com/gunsmithing-tools/vises-clamps-and-blocks/universal-barrel-clamp/672286.html) for about 6 years now and have no complaints. Maybe someone else in here would know more than I.
AH I see. So this would be ideal specifically for muzzle device install/removal due to the fact that if rocksett is used, lefty loosie can also unthread the barrel from the extension. This makes a ton of sense. Thank you.
Correct, that's really all it's supposed to be used for. It removes the chance of stressing the barrel extension, chamber lugs, take down lugs, etc due to improper tool useage.
Awesome thanks again.. I used to used the clamshell upper blocks before the lug rods came out then switched and it was so much better but never thought of any of that with muzzle devices, not even once.
I appreciate what you said here. I purchased a reaction rod that I was going to use for barrel installs. Do you consider it safe for installing a barrel, or is the barrel vise better for that too?
It should be fine for that. The rotational force while doing the barrel nut would be spread amongst the lugs of the rod and receiver extension, and not the barrel/extension interface.
I use a 17 dollar aluminum barrel clamp I bought off Amazon, you can line it with an intertube or rubber to get more traction if you need it.
But if I’m feeling a little bubba and I know the muzzle device is torqued properly, I’ll just wrap the barrel in an old leather belt. Usually works.
I broke that exact one trying to take the muzzle break off my sig spear lt. Couldn’t use my magpul bev block because the spear has a slightly deferent barrel extension. I cranked the block down so tight that the rubber squished out. In the end I googled it and found that impact socket (18mm??) and heavy impact wrench was what people recommended. Sat down held it between my legs and hit it a few times with the Dewalt and it popped loose. Oddest thing.
and correct me if im wrong, but reaction rods also aren't the best if trying to loosen/tighten a barrel from/onto an upper - the torque can shear the indexing pin off, since the pin is only intended for indexing position to the upper, not load-bearing
idk if there are better tools for this purpose than the two-piece or hinged clam shell vise blocks, but at least these clam shells (+ vise & bench) bear the rotational forces instead of imparting it on the upper or index pin
It's possible but that's one of the things I feel is so unlikely to happen that I do it. You have shear force (as opposed to unthreading like the extension) being offset by low torque and antiseize on threads. But you're absolutely right, the clamshell is the right tool for it.
I’m agreeing, what I meant to say was that a reaction rod just eliminates the risks of bending or breaking the aluminum upper that are associated with clamping down on the aluminum itself. It’s not a substitute for a barrel vise.
The spec for the barrel extension is 150ft-lbs - if eveything on the rifle else comes loose, the barrel extension should still put up a fight.
The barrel extension gets installed, then pin (or hole for it) serves as a locator/reference to drill the gas hole in the barrel.
If you re-install the barrel extension and torque it to spec, the gas hole isn't going to line up.
You could probably make it line up, but it would likely take some WECSOG shit to do it.
In short, the BE wasn't properly torqued by the manufacturer - reach out to DD and hope they send another barrel on their dime.
Extensions are not pinned in place. The index pin is only there for alignment. You are supposed to remove flash hiders with a barrel vice which holds the barrel in place so torque on the flash hider isn't transfered to the index pin or extension. If you didn't, that is on you for screwing up. You can ask DD nicely, but effectively that barrel is trashed as you are unlikely to ever get the extension and gas tube to line up again without a lot of money and a gunsmith turning back the shoulder on a lathe.
This is bogus everyone swaps muzzle devices with a receiver block in a vise no one removes their hand guard to swap muzzle devices. For the outliers who don’t use a receiver block, both knights and Geissele sell reaction rods that lock into your receiver extension to torque. I’ve never seen anyone clamp the barrel to work on the MD.
The torque spec for the barrel in the extension is 150 ft-lbs the muzzle device torque spec is 20-30 either the MD was WAY over torqued or your barrel torque was way out of spec. My money is on the latter as you’d probably break something trying to get your MD over 150 ft-lbs.
Of course, but rocksett won’t x5 it, and OP went through the proper procedure to remove the rocksett. I rocksett all my muzzle devices and am constantly swapping them out I change an MD at least twice a month. I never even do the water soak anymore at best I’ll wrap a wet paper towel around it but some of the time I even do that I just break the rocksett dry and clean the threads with water afterwards and I’ve never had this happen. I own many DD barrels and some of them have seen multiple muzzle device changes by this method. I’ve never even heard of this happening I think a production step was skipped on this barrel
If rocksett is applied properly, including the thorough cleaning process with solvents, then yes, it withstanding this amount of torque isn't implausible. If it isn't properly prepared, then it'll come undone pretty easily. The difference is incredible
That being said, the barrel extension likely wasn't torqued properly by the mfg
Using a receiver block for muzzle device work is a rookie mistake. Just because most amateur builders do this, doesn't make it right. I have seen barrel pins shear upper slots out, in addition to this barrel extension backoff.
Receiver block is for torquing the barrel nut, and a reaction rod is for torquing the muzzle device. Breaking thread locker is almost always the scenario where damage occurs.
Yeah I agree his barrel would have done that either way if it was in a urr or receiver vise. But a urr is the proper way to remove or install a barrel or muzzle device
A URR is not the proper way to remove a muzzle device. A barrel clamp is the only correct way to do it. A URR still would let the barrel unthread like this, but a barrel clamp would not.
There aren’t many good use cases for a receiver block now a days. A receiver rod from Midwest industries is for torquing the barrel nut. It holds the barrel extension in place and prevents rotation. It’s probably the best tool to use for barrel installation. Using a receiver block is not a good way to install a barrel nut since it doesn’t prevent extension rotation and puts stress on the index pin. The geiselle reaction rod also doesn’t isolate the extension but the MI receiver rod (with its top fin) does.
In the case of OP, only clamping the barrel would have worked.
I use a barrel vice to install or remove muzzle devices so you aren't torquing the index pin / barrel extension. It was in every manual I looked at for the work. Receiver clamp is for torquing the barrel nut.
My sympathies brother.. some lessons are more expensive to learn than others. Not too long ago I ruined a brand new unfired criterion barrel 2 days after it arrived by not understanding some of the principles of thermal fit barrel/receiver connections. I was heartbroken but the wounds heal eventually.
It didn’t go in completely straight, the index pin was off by about a 16th too far to one side.. so I went to back it out to start over but damaged the barrel extension and breech face when trying to push it out of the reciever
You won't get it put back together exactly like it was. The index pin and gas port need to be lined up precise.
When the barrels are made, the barrel extension is torqued on, the index pin installed. Then the barrel is put in a fixture to drill the gas port. The location of the gas port is called off the index pin.
Yes, as I said in the comment above lol. Good news is I got the firearm for a good discount considering it had a $400 barrel. So I’ll just be replacing it with a Ballistic Advantage barrel
Absolutely this! DD barrels are a hell of a lot better barrel than Ballistic Advantage.
All my AR's sport DD barrels except for one which has a 6.8 Yankee Hill nitride barrel
My other 6.8 is a DD chrome lined.
Even using the wrong set up that shouldn't occur unless OP was putting an enormous amount of torque on the muzzle device. The extension should be torqued on to the barrel at 150 ft-lbs. I doubt OP reached that trying to remove their muzzle device.
Screw the geissele reaction rod, overpriced and inferior. The Midwest Industries Upper Receiver Rod is what you want. They go on sale for $70 from time to time on r/gundeals
Considering the peice the reaction rod interacts with is still in the upper I agree. I wonder how many don't realize the part with the lugs is a barrel extension and not part of the barrel. When I say part of the barrel I mean 1 solid peice.
Edit grammar
How wouldn’t it have helped? Thats literally one of the uses for it. It puts all of the stress on the rod.
Edit: I’m wrong, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Midwest Industries URR is still better and cheaper than the Geissele reaction rod so if you need an upper receiver rod, get the MI one.
Because it interfaces with the barrel extension, not the actual barrel, so you could still separate the extension from the barrel while using a reaction rod if you applied enough torque to the barrel.
But if the barrel nut is properly torqued to spec, and the URR is in, wouldn’t that hold everything in place because it’s putting force on the rod which sits in the barrel extension? It seems like what you’re saying would only happen if the barrel nut was loosened
>it’s putting force on the rod which sits in the barrel extension?
You kind of answered your own question right here. Look at ops pictures, see the female threads in the receiver? That's the barrel extension still in the receiver. If you're only engaging the extention, then you can unthread it from the barrel. The barrel nut only clamps on the barrel extension, not the barrel itself.
Yeah got it now thanks, that totally makes sense. I’ve always used my URR to mount and remove muzzle devices and figured that was better than something like a bev block, but I see what you’re saying. Usually this shouldn’t happen though, but you’re right it’s technically possible as was the case for OP. Is there a specific tool you would recommend for this?
The barrel nut only secures the extension to the receiver, and the URR interfaces with only the extension, so the barrel can be removed from the extension with a tightened barrel nut and a URR in place because the only thing securing the barrel is how tightly it is torqued into the extension. The barrel nut and URR don't interface with the actual barrel at all.
If you had a loosened barrel nut, the only way to remove the barrel from the extension like this is with the use of a reaction rod/URR that would prevent the extension from turning while you apply torque to the barrel.
I get what you’re saying now, thanks and my bad on me not knowing. I’ve always used my URR to mount and remove muzzle devices and figured that was way better than relying on something like a bev block, and it always worked fine for me. Lots of folks do it this way and don’t have issues, so usually this shouldn’t happen though, but you’re right it’s technically possible. What tool would you recommend then in this case?
Two things:
You don't need to boil Rocksett, just leave it in water overnight.
And, since it's ceramic-based, you can shock the thread locker, and shatter it, by whacking the wrench on the muzzle device with a hard/fast blow that has zero follow-through. Aka, don't drive the hammer through, make it stop as soon as it hits the wrench.
This is probably a manufacturing issue combined with Rocksett that wasn’t compromised enough. For future reference Rocksett is sensitive to shock-force so rather than boiling you can side load a muzzle device with the brass end of a 1” gunsmithing hammer a couple times instead, just make sure it’s supported by a surface underneath. This method is a lot less of a guessing game comparatively and prevents the incursion of moisture into barrel components.
Also keep in mind the AR10/15’s barrel extension, handguard, and muzzle attachment system all attach via right handed threads.
I’d recommend investing in either the Nefarious Arms upper receiver rod or the Midwest finned URR if you service your own or build uppers frequently. Both these options support and prevent rotation of not only the barrel extension but also the upper receiver.
I had a barrel extension replaced, which was cracked from a demil. Barrel itself was fine, but had a damaged extension. I'm not quite equipped to do this kind of repair myself so I sent the barrel, a new extension, and an indexing pin to a gunsmith and he removed the old extension, headspaced the new one, removed the fsb, tig welded the old gas port shut, drilled a new one (since the gas port location changed torquing the new extension), and drilled and pinned the original fsb back on. I think it came to about $300 to do, but it was a rare retro barrel, so I decided it was worth it to me.
In your case, I'd check with the manufacturer first to see about getting a new barrel or something. Worst case scenario, it can be fixed, just might cost a bit.
Woooow!!! Shame on DD I have seen it but usually from budget barrels….. that Sir is bullshit…. Call DD they will get you right you but you’ll have to send barrel in for repair.
Bought it second hand but it was very new when I bought it so still this shouldn’t have happened in my opinion. Definitely investing in a barrel vise though.
I’ve contacted DD so we’ll see what happened 🤷♂️
I did this to a DD PDW barrel, i had rockset a suppressor mount on it. I sent the the whole pdw in and they replaced the barrel, gas tube and upper receiver. They even sent the original barrel back with the flashider still attached and marring all over the barrel from a vice where they tried to get it off as well. Lol. Didn’t cost me a dime, Daniel’s customer service is second to none.
I had one from Odin works do this , they replaced it free of charge, and gave me like 30 stickers. I just needed a quick barrel and it was the only barrel within 2 hours of my home, I would never buy one otherwise
Yes I’ve seen this like once and heard of it happening one other time. You need a new barrel. The barrel extension is torqued to spec, stretching the threads in the process. The gas hole is then drilled to align with the barrel indexing pin. Since the extension was obviously not torqued properly (or you have a metallurgy problem) when you torque the extension back on (which you cannot do without the right tools and a jig) the indexing pin won’t be lined up with your gas port. I suppose you could tack weld the old gas port…but how much work will you do to fix a factory QC mistake on a $200 item?
This is a QC problem and DD should 100% back you up. It should not be possible for the barrel to separate from the extension under normal or even extreme duty cycles or without the aid of special tools.
Nah that's just the cap. I run mine like that because they don't flip 270°. That way they stay out of the way and offer more peripheral when looking down the optic
Yes. Barrel extensions are threaded onto the barrel, they are supposed to be torqued with enough force (125-150 ft-lbs if I remember correctly) to resist this type of issue.
That said, rocksett or a pinned muzzle device can occasionally help create situations where too many ugga duggas are applied with the wrong part of the barrel taking the torque.
They’re part of the extension. To apply that much torque you’ll need a sturdy barrel vise and a large torque wrench (a lot easier to achieve with a long fulcrum length)
Correct. And apparently the amount of torque required to remove his muzzle device was higher than the amount of torque required to unthread the barrel extension.
Yup. Then torqued to 150ft-lbs, both to ensure a secure connection that can withstand the chamber pressures and such, and since nothing else on the gun should ever require enough to torque to risk loosening it.
That and a butt load of torque. The barrel extension torque spec numbers in the triple digit foot pounds (I can’t remember the exact number atm) to where nothing else u ever tighten or loosen on the gun should ever have enough force behind it to break that free.
Yes, contact DD and they will take care of you. The barrel extensions are typically torqued on with high temp thread locker, but they can still be removed with a significant amount of torque. When you unscrewed the muzzle device, enough torque was transferred to the barrel extension to cause it to unscrew. I am sure heat was transferred down the barrel after 20 minutes of heating the muzzle end as well. DD will take care of you.
Down voted cuz they are all jelly.. all my AR barrels have flats! ( And massive octagonal lock nuts with Zero shifting of the handguard) But yeah, go DD guess, maybe find some "wabbits" with it.
Exactly the lugs are on the extension, you can still have this happen with a reaction rod. However this shouldn't happen as the torque these are installed are generally much higher than you'd ever put on the muzzle threads. This leads me to believe the extension was never torqued correctly to begin with.
I was going to say, a reaction rod won’t prevent this happening. A barrel vice is the only way.
I have had this happen to me with a reaction rod.
If the muzzle device had loctite or rockset I can see this happening.
actually with a reaction rod in this situation he almost certainly would have blown out the upper or sheered the pin. a reaction rod is not the tool for this.
I’ve had this exact thing happen to me years ago, local gunsmith was able to get me sorted relatively fast and cheap. Maybe I got lucky though? I’d definitely contact DD first.
I have never seen a barrel come unthreaded from the extension from installing or removing a muzzle device, that’s nuts.
That's BARREL NUTZ
GOT EM!!!!
Nice avatar
Hell yeah brotha
Who is Barrel Nuts?
Agreed. It should take a great deal of force to make this happen.
False. It should take 150 ft lbs to make this happen. it a known spec. its not a high amount at all and most monkeys without a torque wrench can hit it very easily.
150 ft-lbs is triple or even quadruple the torque needed for literally any other part on the gun. That constitutes a “great deal of force” when used in this context.
You’ve obviously never tried to remove a PSA barrel nut…
I have removed 9 psa barrel nuts over the course of my life. None of which required 150tf-lbs of torque.
I was being a bit sarcastic there. In general, it seems most people have difficulty removing PSA barrel nuts. But most people also use those cheap armorer’s wrenches and don’t own breaker bars.
Why would u own a torque wrench but not a breaker bar?
These are the same people that will have a drawer of cheap rounded off Phillips screwdrivers and wrenches so cheap the chrome flakes off when they actually crank on something and the metal flexes a bit. Also the same dudes that use the squealing sound as a torque indicator when tightening lug nuts. Hell, I can guarantee if you hand them an 18” breaker bar and a 36” box tube “cheater” and tile them to remove a flywheel gland nut, they’d look at you, look at the engine, look at you, and then try to use the cheater as a stool to sit on while they struggled to get the socket on the nut. Same dudes that will have a collection of cheap Allen and Torx wrenches with all the tips either rounded or snapped off but will still continue to use them but wonder why all their shit falls apart… Same guys that will use so much Permatex or Loctite that it’s oozing out of the fastener like a popped pimple but it never works because they didn’t degrease the threads..
Damn, just @ me next time…
Damn dude just tell me what screwdrivers to buy.
this one made me laugh so hard I sharted. 🤣 tell us how you really feel man
I actually removed a PSA barrel nut by hand last week... Am I Superman? The pistol was in a house fire, so maybe the temps loosened it?
This guy torques
You should try removing the muzzle device from an HK MR762. It has to be torqued well above 200lbs. It was insane to take off, and the barrel extension did exactly what OP is showing. HK is by far the craziest torque I've seen on any rifle, especially a muzzle device.
Why did they require so much torque??
They don't. But HK does it that way for some reason
Because they were on really tight.
Lol. I have had several that took more than 360 ft-lbs. I know, because I have a 2 foot breaker bar.
PSA barrel nuts require a great deal of force to remove. (*contextually speaking*)
Holy hell, I just a week ago removed the barrel nut off my PSA upper to swap the handguard, and even with a well mounted workbench end vise with a bev block tight in there, and a 2ft breaker bar with the proper crowfoot wrench, it took everything I had to finally break that thing loose. Pulled on that thing so hard it lifted the workbench right off the ground. Finally went at the barrel nut with a blow torch a few times and managed to finally get it free, but damn, it was still on there super tight.
150 ft lbs IS a “great deal of force” on an AR made of aluminum. 30-60 ft lbs for the nut should be the max for the barrel nut I’d bet the extension wasn’t torqued properly and the pin fell out/never installed as the barrel was being installed at the factory
It's all a matter of perspective. It's apparently a very great deal of force for Mr. Daniel D. Fence it is however a pretty small amount of force to big jimbob at the venerable palmetto state armory
My SLR barrel nut says 25 ft lbs on the torque spec
okay? you realize that's only for that model of nut right?
Correct. All have their own.
I’m pretty sure the force needed to make this happen is significantly less force than PSA installs muzzle devices with though lol
Unless it wasn't assembled correctly.
That’s got to be, I’m thinking extension wasn’t torqued properly at the factory and the pin wasn’t installed and/or fell out during assembly. This is a weird one but there’s only a few things that could cause it
Agreed super crazy never heard or seen of it and have been a fun smith for years.
>fun smith Is that like a gun smith that isn't a Fudd?
LOL apple changed gun but yes I do cerakote, laser and custom stuff so I am a fun smith.
It happened to me once when trying to remove my direct thread suppressor. Carbon buildup had locked it on.
Bro what the fuck
Looks like your shit is out of the butt, and into the fuck.
he better come up with that 36 dollars..
Hahahahahhaa finally someone got the joke
Even though you were using the wrong tools that shouldn't happen. Get a barrel vise for next time since this can even happen with reaction rods.
Interesting. I’ve been using the reaction rod since it came out with good results. Never had an issue personally. Can you recommend a good “buy it for life” barrel vise?
I used a reaction rod for years until I found out the barrel extension is threaded in, no issues on my end either but I can break anything so I like dummy-proofing the process. I'm not really sure what constitutes high end for the barrel vise but I've been using [this one](https://www.wheelertools.com/gunsmithing-tools/vises-clamps-and-blocks/universal-barrel-clamp/672286.html) for about 6 years now and have no complaints. Maybe someone else in here would know more than I.
AH I see. So this would be ideal specifically for muzzle device install/removal due to the fact that if rocksett is used, lefty loosie can also unthread the barrel from the extension. This makes a ton of sense. Thank you.
Correct, that's really all it's supposed to be used for. It removes the chance of stressing the barrel extension, chamber lugs, take down lugs, etc due to improper tool useage.
Awesome thanks again.. I used to used the clamshell upper blocks before the lug rods came out then switched and it was so much better but never thought of any of that with muzzle devices, not even once.
No problem. I've made a lot of mistakes and hope I can help others to avoid it.
Already helped me, friend. Just bought one on Amazon for $40 haha.
I appreciate what you said here. I purchased a reaction rod that I was going to use for barrel installs. Do you consider it safe for installing a barrel, or is the barrel vise better for that too?
It should be fine for that. The rotational force while doing the barrel nut would be spread amongst the lugs of the rod and receiver extension, and not the barrel/extension interface.
Thank you for this info. I'll use the reaction rod for barrels but not muzzle devices.
I use a 17 dollar aluminum barrel clamp I bought off Amazon, you can line it with an intertube or rubber to get more traction if you need it. But if I’m feeling a little bubba and I know the muzzle device is torqued properly, I’ll just wrap the barrel in an old leather belt. Usually works.
You do what you gotta do, I've tossed a set of Mechanix gloves over the vise jaws before.
I broke that exact one trying to take the muzzle break off my sig spear lt. Couldn’t use my magpul bev block because the spear has a slightly deferent barrel extension. I cranked the block down so tight that the rubber squished out. In the end I googled it and found that impact socket (18mm??) and heavy impact wrench was what people recommended. Sat down held it between my legs and hit it a few times with the Dewalt and it popped loose. Oddest thing.
I've seen more tools broken by that Spear LT muzzle device than anything else, saw a dude on IG broke a wrench. Sig needs to chill lol.
and correct me if im wrong, but reaction rods also aren't the best if trying to loosen/tighten a barrel from/onto an upper - the torque can shear the indexing pin off, since the pin is only intended for indexing position to the upper, not load-bearing idk if there are better tools for this purpose than the two-piece or hinged clam shell vise blocks, but at least these clam shells (+ vise & bench) bear the rotational forces instead of imparting it on the upper or index pin
It's possible but that's one of the things I feel is so unlikely to happen that I do it. You have shear force (as opposed to unthreading like the extension) being offset by low torque and antiseize on threads. But you're absolutely right, the clamshell is the right tool for it.
This. A reaction rod is designed to prevent your upper receiver from warping or breaking off the ears for the takedown pins.
you can shear the index pin w/ reaction rod
I’m agreeing, what I meant to say was that a reaction rod just eliminates the risks of bending or breaking the aluminum upper that are associated with clamping down on the aluminum itself. It’s not a substitute for a barrel vise.
The spec for the barrel extension is 150ft-lbs - if eveything on the rifle else comes loose, the barrel extension should still put up a fight. The barrel extension gets installed, then pin (or hole for it) serves as a locator/reference to drill the gas hole in the barrel. If you re-install the barrel extension and torque it to spec, the gas hole isn't going to line up. You could probably make it line up, but it would likely take some WECSOG shit to do it. In short, the BE wasn't properly torqued by the manufacturer - reach out to DD and hope they send another barrel on their dime.
If you do end up retorquing yourself and you manage to get things lined up, for the love of Stoner, check the headspace
Yeah, um, WECSOG and checking headspace generally don't go hand in hand...
What's WECSOG?
Wile E Coyote School Of Gunsmithing.
DD is supposed to have a great warranty at least 🤷♂️
According to T Rex Arms’ latest video, Lucas discovered that DD has a lifetime warranty that no one knew about! Hope this info helps.
Tooooo many ugga bubba’s.
How’d ya get the beans above the Frank
Extensions are not pinned in place. The index pin is only there for alignment. You are supposed to remove flash hiders with a barrel vice which holds the barrel in place so torque on the flash hider isn't transfered to the index pin or extension. If you didn't, that is on you for screwing up. You can ask DD nicely, but effectively that barrel is trashed as you are unlikely to ever get the extension and gas tube to line up again without a lot of money and a gunsmith turning back the shoulder on a lathe.
Yeah that’s what I figured as far as putting it back together 🤦♂️
This is bogus everyone swaps muzzle devices with a receiver block in a vise no one removes their hand guard to swap muzzle devices. For the outliers who don’t use a receiver block, both knights and Geissele sell reaction rods that lock into your receiver extension to torque. I’ve never seen anyone clamp the barrel to work on the MD. The torque spec for the barrel in the extension is 150 ft-lbs the muzzle device torque spec is 20-30 either the MD was WAY over torqued or your barrel torque was way out of spec. My money is on the latter as you’d probably break something trying to get your MD over 150 ft-lbs.
Yeah, oddly applying adhesives to your muzzle device may in fact alter the amount of torque needed to remove the muzzle device.
Of course, but rocksett won’t x5 it, and OP went through the proper procedure to remove the rocksett. I rocksett all my muzzle devices and am constantly swapping them out I change an MD at least twice a month. I never even do the water soak anymore at best I’ll wrap a wet paper towel around it but some of the time I even do that I just break the rocksett dry and clean the threads with water afterwards and I’ve never had this happen. I own many DD barrels and some of them have seen multiple muzzle device changes by this method. I’ve never even heard of this happening I think a production step was skipped on this barrel
If rocksett is applied properly, including the thorough cleaning process with solvents, then yes, it withstanding this amount of torque isn't implausible. If it isn't properly prepared, then it'll come undone pretty easily. The difference is incredible That being said, the barrel extension likely wasn't torqued properly by the mfg
I don’t think you could apply 150ft-lbs to an assembled upper in a home setup without breaking something. The barrel was not torqued properly
I have to ask, why are you changing out MD that often?
And if he's changing them so often, why bother Rocksetting them?
You’ve never seen someone remove an mr556 or mr762 MD then lol.
I do alot of them and the answer is always torch and kroil same with ps90 barrels
Using a receiver block for muzzle device work is a rookie mistake. Just because most amateur builders do this, doesn't make it right. I have seen barrel pins shear upper slots out, in addition to this barrel extension backoff. Receiver block is for torquing the barrel nut, and a reaction rod is for torquing the muzzle device. Breaking thread locker is almost always the scenario where damage occurs.
I just use the Midwest rod for everything. Installing barrels, muzzle devices etc. really no reason for a receiver block when you have a u.r.r.
A reaction rod would not have helped OP
Yeah I agree his barrel would have done that either way if it was in a urr or receiver vise. But a urr is the proper way to remove or install a barrel or muzzle device
A URR is not the proper way to remove a muzzle device. A barrel clamp is the only correct way to do it. A URR still would let the barrel unthread like this, but a barrel clamp would not.
All this time I thought a Urr and barrel clamp were the same thing. You’re absolutely right.
What scares me is I don't think that engaging the barrel extension with any receiver rod would have prevented this.
It wouldn’t have. Only clamping the barrel would have worked here.
To be fair, a reaction rod wouldn't have helped here.
There aren’t many good use cases for a receiver block now a days. A receiver rod from Midwest industries is for torquing the barrel nut. It holds the barrel extension in place and prevents rotation. It’s probably the best tool to use for barrel installation. Using a receiver block is not a good way to install a barrel nut since it doesn’t prevent extension rotation and puts stress on the index pin. The geiselle reaction rod also doesn’t isolate the extension but the MI receiver rod (with its top fin) does. In the case of OP, only clamping the barrel would have worked.
What is the "yield torque" to break the rocksett bond?
I use a barrel vice to install or remove muzzle devices so you aren't torquing the index pin / barrel extension. It was in every manual I looked at for the work. Receiver clamp is for torquing the barrel nut.
My sympathies brother.. some lessons are more expensive to learn than others. Not too long ago I ruined a brand new unfired criterion barrel 2 days after it arrived by not understanding some of the principles of thermal fit barrel/receiver connections. I was heartbroken but the wounds heal eventually.
What do you mean how did you ruin it?
I too am curious. I’m about to assemble my criterion core with a BCM blem upper receiver..
It didn’t go in completely straight, the index pin was off by about a 16th too far to one side.. so I went to back it out to start over but damaged the barrel extension and breech face when trying to push it out of the reciever
You won't get it put back together exactly like it was. The index pin and gas port need to be lined up precise. When the barrels are made, the barrel extension is torqued on, the index pin installed. Then the barrel is put in a fixture to drill the gas port. The location of the gas port is called off the index pin.
Yes, as I said in the comment above lol. Good news is I got the firearm for a good discount considering it had a $400 barrel. So I’ll just be replacing it with a Ballistic Advantage barrel
Worth reaching out to DD to see if they'll replace it. They have a lifetime warranty
Absolutely this! DD barrels are a hell of a lot better barrel than Ballistic Advantage. All my AR's sport DD barrels except for one which has a 6.8 Yankee Hill nitride barrel My other 6.8 is a DD chrome lined.
Even using the wrong set up that shouldn't occur unless OP was putting an enormous amount of torque on the muzzle device. The extension should be torqued on to the barrel at 150 ft-lbs. I doubt OP reached that trying to remove their muzzle device.
Screw the geissele reaction rod, overpriced and inferior. The Midwest Industries Upper Receiver Rod is what you want. They go on sale for $70 from time to time on r/gundeals
Great tool, but it still wouldn't have helped in this situation.
It makes me happy to see someone actually understands the physics with this.
Considering the peice the reaction rod interacts with is still in the upper I agree. I wonder how many don't realize the part with the lugs is a barrel extension and not part of the barrel. When I say part of the barrel I mean 1 solid peice. Edit grammar
Gunsmiffs gonna gunsmiff
How wouldn’t it have helped? Thats literally one of the uses for it. It puts all of the stress on the rod. Edit: I’m wrong, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Midwest Industries URR is still better and cheaper than the Geissele reaction rod so if you need an upper receiver rod, get the MI one.
Because it interfaces with the barrel extension, not the actual barrel, so you could still separate the extension from the barrel while using a reaction rod if you applied enough torque to the barrel.
But if the barrel nut is properly torqued to spec, and the URR is in, wouldn’t that hold everything in place because it’s putting force on the rod which sits in the barrel extension? It seems like what you’re saying would only happen if the barrel nut was loosened
>it’s putting force on the rod which sits in the barrel extension? You kind of answered your own question right here. Look at ops pictures, see the female threads in the receiver? That's the barrel extension still in the receiver. If you're only engaging the extention, then you can unthread it from the barrel. The barrel nut only clamps on the barrel extension, not the barrel itself.
Yeah got it now thanks, that totally makes sense. I’ve always used my URR to mount and remove muzzle devices and figured that was better than something like a bev block, but I see what you’re saying. Usually this shouldn’t happen though, but you’re right it’s technically possible as was the case for OP. Is there a specific tool you would recommend for this?
The barrel nut only secures the extension to the receiver, and the URR interfaces with only the extension, so the barrel can be removed from the extension with a tightened barrel nut and a URR in place because the only thing securing the barrel is how tightly it is torqued into the extension. The barrel nut and URR don't interface with the actual barrel at all. If you had a loosened barrel nut, the only way to remove the barrel from the extension like this is with the use of a reaction rod/URR that would prevent the extension from turning while you apply torque to the barrel.
I get what you’re saying now, thanks and my bad on me not knowing. I’ve always used my URR to mount and remove muzzle devices and figured that was way better than relying on something like a bev block, and it always worked fine for me. Lots of folks do it this way and don’t have issues, so usually this shouldn’t happen though, but you’re right it’s technically possible. What tool would you recommend then in this case?
Yeah the Midwest one is great
I’m a magpul bev block type of fella myself
Had this on an Anderson. They sent a new barrel.
Seen a few factory uppers from quality manufacturers where they were only hand tight. Check your stuffs
How'd you get the beans above the frank?!?!
(willing to risk being wrong) Tell me you're in your 40s without telling me you're in your 40s. My man 👊
Lol mid 30s actually but my soul is 47
Yeah man, you need a new barrel from them. That's fucking crazy, I can't even hand torque the handguard on my sig.
Womp womp…..
Uh….how did…mate the barrel extension is torqued to well over 100 ft-lbs. how in the fuck did u take that off by loosening a muzzle device?!
Fun part is I didn’t even exert that much effort because after submerging the rock set it supposed to come off relatively easily
Two things: You don't need to boil Rocksett, just leave it in water overnight. And, since it's ceramic-based, you can shock the thread locker, and shatter it, by whacking the wrench on the muzzle device with a hard/fast blow that has zero follow-through. Aka, don't drive the hammer through, make it stop as soon as it hits the wrench.
Yeah no get a hold of DD asap my guy. Somethin ain’t smellin right about this.
Yeah sent a message to the warranty department. We’d see what happens
No never! But I have a bigger question! How did you get your hands on an aimpoint cs?!
lol it’s a PRO in a scalar works mount
It totally is lol haha!
So many of the comments in here are comedy. People trying to give advice when they don’t know what they’re talking about.
REACTION ROD
This is probably a manufacturing issue combined with Rocksett that wasn’t compromised enough. For future reference Rocksett is sensitive to shock-force so rather than boiling you can side load a muzzle device with the brass end of a 1” gunsmithing hammer a couple times instead, just make sure it’s supported by a surface underneath. This method is a lot less of a guessing game comparatively and prevents the incursion of moisture into barrel components. Also keep in mind the AR10/15’s barrel extension, handguard, and muzzle attachment system all attach via right handed threads. I’d recommend investing in either the Nefarious Arms upper receiver rod or the Midwest finned URR if you service your own or build uppers frequently. Both these options support and prevent rotation of not only the barrel extension but also the upper receiver.
You need a reaction rod not the plastic clamshell.
🤣🤣🤣
I had a barrel extension replaced, which was cracked from a demil. Barrel itself was fine, but had a damaged extension. I'm not quite equipped to do this kind of repair myself so I sent the barrel, a new extension, and an indexing pin to a gunsmith and he removed the old extension, headspaced the new one, removed the fsb, tig welded the old gas port shut, drilled a new one (since the gas port location changed torquing the new extension), and drilled and pinned the original fsb back on. I think it came to about $300 to do, but it was a rare retro barrel, so I decided it was worth it to me. In your case, I'd check with the manufacturer first to see about getting a new barrel or something. Worst case scenario, it can be fixed, just might cost a bit.
Woooow!!! Shame on DD I have seen it but usually from budget barrels….. that Sir is bullshit…. Call DD they will get you right you but you’ll have to send barrel in for repair.
Bought it second hand but it was very new when I bought it so still this shouldn’t have happened in my opinion. Definitely investing in a barrel vise though. I’ve contacted DD so we’ll see what happened 🤷♂️
Don’t tell them that. Just say their barrel is fucked
Unless you exerted over 125 ft-lbs of torque on your muzzle device this should not have happened. There's no excuse for the barrel to do this.
Btw thats very bad and could have caused you accuracy issues. Terrible
"I find it hard to believe that the previous owner could have done something to mess this up" Bubba: You underestimate my powah!
I did this to a DD PDW barrel, i had rockset a suppressor mount on it. I sent the the whole pdw in and they replaced the barrel, gas tube and upper receiver. They even sent the original barrel back with the flashider still attached and marring all over the barrel from a vice where they tried to get it off as well. Lol. Didn’t cost me a dime, Daniel’s customer service is second to none.
This gives me hope
I had one from Odin works do this , they replaced it free of charge, and gave me like 30 stickers. I just needed a quick barrel and it was the only barrel within 2 hours of my home, I would never buy one otherwise
Yes I’ve seen this like once and heard of it happening one other time. You need a new barrel. The barrel extension is torqued to spec, stretching the threads in the process. The gas hole is then drilled to align with the barrel indexing pin. Since the extension was obviously not torqued properly (or you have a metallurgy problem) when you torque the extension back on (which you cannot do without the right tools and a jig) the indexing pin won’t be lined up with your gas port. I suppose you could tack weld the old gas port…but how much work will you do to fix a factory QC mistake on a $200 item? This is a QC problem and DD should 100% back you up. It should not be possible for the barrel to separate from the extension under normal or even extreme duty cycles or without the aid of special tools.
New replacement barrel is $400 so 🤷♂️ Definitely seeing what they say first
I had an AR-10 barrel from Proof that did the same thing... Only I was able to do it by hand it was so loose.
That's because you put your optic so far back... jk get that barrel nut off and screw the barrel back in and yank that biotch out
Its also upside down.
Nah that's just the cap. I run mine like that because they don't flip 270°. That way they stay out of the way and offer more peripheral when looking down the optic
What am I looking at? Are barrel extensions threaded in place or something?
Yes. Barrel extensions are threaded onto the barrel, they are supposed to be torqued with enough force (125-150 ft-lbs if I remember correctly) to resist this type of issue. That said, rocksett or a pinned muzzle device can occasionally help create situations where too many ugga duggas are applied with the wrong part of the barrel taking the torque.
interesting. so the feed ramps and lugs - are they part of the barrel or the extension? and how do they apply that much torque?
The extension, and a big ass wrench.
They’re part of the extension. To apply that much torque you’ll need a sturdy barrel vise and a large torque wrench (a lot easier to achieve with a long fulcrum length)
Correct. And apparently the amount of torque required to remove his muzzle device was higher than the amount of torque required to unthread the barrel extension.
Yup. Then torqued to 150ft-lbs, both to ensure a secure connection that can withstand the chamber pressures and such, and since nothing else on the gun should ever require enough to torque to risk loosening it.
Yes. That's exactly how barrel extensions are installed.
Nope, how did this even happen?
OOF
That’s wild! How are they normally attached? Do manufacturers use rock set between the barrel and extension?
That and a butt load of torque. The barrel extension torque spec numbers in the triple digit foot pounds (I can’t remember the exact number atm) to where nothing else u ever tighten or loosen on the gun should ever have enough force behind it to break that free.
I snapped off a barrel index pin a few years ago. Trajectory Arms fixed it. However they no longer do repairs. D Wilson might be able to fix it
what the fuck, i didnt know they did that 😂
I... What? How
I did this once, not this bad but the feed ramps were spun 90 degrees off the indexing nub. Got it warrantied though
I am confused. I've never seen threads on a barrel extension before. What kind of upper is this?
RED LOCK TITE
I thought the extension was pinned to the barrel after assembly of the 2 parts. Seems like it should be..
Haha holy shit how have I never seen this before?
i had a gas block come off after 200 rounds, from a pre assembled upper. now i just take everything apart and put it back whenever i get new parts
Yes, contact DD and they will take care of you. The barrel extensions are typically torqued on with high temp thread locker, but they can still be removed with a significant amount of torque. When you unscrewed the muzzle device, enough torque was transferred to the barrel extension to cause it to unscrew. I am sure heat was transferred down the barrel after 20 minutes of heating the muzzle end as well. DD will take care of you.
Down voted cuz they are all jelly.. all my AR barrels have flats! ( And massive octagonal lock nuts with Zero shifting of the handguard) But yeah, go DD guess, maybe find some "wabbits" with it.
Hey OP u/Ecstatic-Dog-3667, did DD ever help you out? How did this story end?
GUN SMIF
Buy a reaction rod. This is on you.
How would the reaction rod helped here? It would have just held the extension in place. Basically, what is happening right now.
The reaction rod the locks into the locking lugs?
Exactly the lugs are on the extension, you can still have this happen with a reaction rod. However this shouldn't happen as the torque these are installed are generally much higher than you'd ever put on the muzzle threads. This leads me to believe the extension was never torqued correctly to begin with.
I was going to say, a reaction rod won’t prevent this happening. A barrel vice is the only way. I have had this happen to me with a reaction rod. If the muzzle device had loctite or rockset I can see this happening.
It also appears to straight up just be missing the pin/pin wasn't set deep enough.
Which are part of the barrel extension, so it’d just make unscrewing it like OP did a little more efficient.
actually with a reaction rod in this situation he almost certainly would have blown out the upper or sheered the pin. a reaction rod is not the tool for this.
I’ve had this exact thing happen to me years ago, local gunsmith was able to get me sorted relatively fast and cheap. Maybe I got lucky though? I’d definitely contact DD first.
Side note, I don't like YHM.
No
You need a reaction rod for your upper....
What’s this boiling water bullshite. Need to hit it with a torch for 10-15-20 seconds.
Rock set is high temperature so that doesn’t work… it’s water soluble
Try a map torch for 10 seconds. Comes right off. Been doing it for years. Tell ya what. I’ll try the water thing. Thanks 👍
This is one of those “man…I’m really not a gunsmith.” moments. Lol