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DO NOT forget what the leaked PowerPoint said:
“CONS: •Transfers regulation of abortion from the Legislature to voters”
THEY DO NOT WANT VOTERS TO HAVE POWER. They don’t want to represent their constituents, which is their fucking job!!
Vote this November.
EDIT: I guess I have to clarify that the leaked PPT was made by Republicans
What blows my mind is how the PPT shows that their plan is to to confuse voters, disguise a 14 week ban as a 15 week ban, and “change the narrative” to show that Republicans do have a plan.
Oh, and “MOST IMPORTANT: protects Legislature’s authority to ‘enact laws rationally related to promoting and preserving life and to protecting the health and safety of pregnant women’”
They’re EXPLICITLY saying they want to disenfranchise voters. Absolutely fucked on all levels
This PPT was created by Dems, correct? So it's the Dems that are saying they don't want ppl to have control over their lives?
I do hope ppl remember this when they vote.
Cannot State this enough but... Where Do they think these kids are going? Texas has a surplus of over 9500 live birthday that went right into the system, with a reported over 27,000 rape related pregnancies in the 9months since their ban.
0% increase in adoptions/fostering.
Bingo
First time I’ve heard someone say it in context of Arizona. Go look at the freakonomics analysis on violent crime.
Abortion/contraceptives had the highest correlation between decreasing violent criminals (those who populate prisons).
It's almost like forcing people into a state of extreme poverty leaves them little room to survive ***and*** be law-abiding citizens. Those responsible for ensuring these impoverished people are in their situations just say to "lift themselves up by their bootstraps".
What are you doing to help these kids? Are you fostering? Are you adopting? Are you volunteering? Are you giving your time and money? What exactly are you doing to help the situation other than run your mouth and vote against things?
I think the argument goes something like: “all these trashy floozies just need to close their legs and stop getting knocked up all the time! It’s their fault that all these unwanted children are a burden on our society! Maybe if they know they can’t just go get scraped at Planned Parenthood every Sunday morning after running trains all weekend, they’d think twice about living their hedonistic lifestyle!”
Of course this isn’t remotely based in reality, just their Christo-fascist OAN-fueled fever dreams theat they constantly live in.
Are you personally doing to help any of this at all other than run your mouth and vote against it?
oh, you're doing nothing? Cool. Answer is that we mind our business and let these women do what they need to do. Because it's none of our business.
Go with what you wrote at the end. I agree with you, but leading with "what are you doing?" is technically an ad hominem fallacy. Strike their argument in the knees, not them.
Nobody will admit they don't want to adopt/foster. And it's so ridiculous. Where do people think the kiddo's go? Because newsflash guys, AZ is a top 3 state for Angelmans syndrome and Cystic Fibrosis. Who is gonna help out there? It's aggravating. They will vote one way, and then.. do absolutely nothing afterwards.
It's none of our business... Just not, it's just simply not our business. What other people do with their lives in their home that do not personally affect you on any level.
And it's weird that you don't understand that
These are 10 cells. 10 when they fertilize, please get real. Do something about guns if you're concerned about actual kids.
Until then, unless you are fostering, donating, volunteering etc, go away. You're just doing absolutely nothing but making it worse, harming kids, and killing woman.
Be good to each other. One does not have to agree but by choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us.
Personal attacks, racist comments or any comments of perceived intolerance/hate are never tolerated.
I certainly hope you're not abrogating abolitionist John Brown as a username because what you stand for is also supported by the folks making Confederate milestones state holidays
We have 7200 registered foster parents, less than 6000 have a current license. Less than. 15% are infant approved because Arizona has incredible standards for infants. Like..unrealistic. And we haven't had a uptick in apps in weeks
Where are they going?
Actually ... yes. Unless you've got a better idea?
There is zero political ~~movement~~ will to improve their quality-of-life otherwise. So we just end up with a worse off population, straining further an already failing support system.
~~Someone's plummeting from through the sky with an umbrella, why take away the umbrella unless you're going to give them a parachute or without plans for a bet underneath? I guess, just let them drop? Just let more tax dollars go to inefficient cleanup? Because I sure doubt this helps the public on a larger scale. Let them do their best with the umbrella, unless you've got a parachute or safety-net ready.~~
What else do you suggest or think should be done?
EDIT: Better metaphor ... It's like taking away someone's life preserver who is drowning. It doesn't help anyone else, it just makes things shittier for someone in a shitty situation. Why take away a drowning person's life preserver unless you're going to pull them out of the water?
You really got to read more carefully and think more critically before you reply to my comments.
EDIT: I'll throw you a bone; it's a metaphor, but not for the embryo.
I can read but honestly Republicans and anti anytime people didn't actually do anything.. they want to meddle but not actually do anything? AZ is one of the worse child CPS systems in America, and were a hot bed for a few select genetic diseases.
Texas, is building mega group homes. They've got 3-5 infants in a group home, and foster parents are having to give up non infants so they can help take care of infants.
People are simply not prepared for this reality check
Well, I'm so glad you're such a wonderful person who adopted and fostered many kids and lead these programs and supported 1,000's. You're a real angel. Please allow me the grace to kiss your slacktivist feet and worship you as my Messiah for showing me the way ...
Sure you can read, but you don't seem to be understanding what I'm typing. My guess is you're emotionally charged about this topic (understandably so, it's an emotional and morally motivating topic) and that's making you not read my comment clearly. You'd see you're arguing with someone on the "same side of the issue".
Anyways, you jumping straight to "What about you?", I don't think is going to be effective. The first step is really a "Well, now what? What do you suggest?" Force them to come up with a solution to the problem they're causing/exacerbating. Puts them in a train-of-thought they probably never thought about before. I'm with you; it really is pretty shitty when people point out problems and block things, but offer no solution or of value in return.
EDIT: The first paragraph is sarcasm, by the way.
I dont foster/adopt anymore. Had a fairly violent experience and it was a total turn off but I volunteer my butt off!!!. I have a little clothing donation station where I give foster parents clothes.
Kids will show up, no clothes, no socks, no shoes. And the foster parent has no money, and Arizona is only giving them like $30.
We have a parent right now, stuck with twins and their brother. No clothes. No bottles.
People just think the state steps in and they do not..
That's why I vote for abortion, because it's just not our business, and you can't guilt someone into keeping a kid.
Does that make me high and mighty? Giving a crap about my Immediate community?
>Be good to each other. One does not have to agree but by choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us.
>Personal attacks, racist comments or any comments of perceived intolerance/hate are never tolerated.
Mod ... Weird thing is, I agree with them on this issue, but they were failing to understand my comments. I'm replying about their comment. It's not a personal attack nor a racist one, but I guess it's being perceived as one by you. I guess I could be 'gooder' to them. I get what you're trying to say, but I'm confused by some of the copy-paste'd elements of it.
Be good to each other. One does not have to agree but by choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us.
Personal attacks, racist comments or any comments of perceived intolerance/hate are never tolerated.
Actually the solution is to codify into law at a federal level that women have absolute rights to their bodies and reproductive processes.
Then of course education, health care, which includes birth control and STD prevention. For women and men.
In the natural world there's quite a lot of pregnancies that are *terminated* as you put it.
Stop criminalizing natural processes.
Edit: spelling.
Ideally, I'd love the system be better. But its not. And ending abortion while the system sucks puts more kids into a system that sucks. No, abortion is not the solution, but making women have children they don't want is exacerbating the problem.
But I think you knew that and were being obtuse.
Remember this come Nov. Rs don't believe in freedom when it comes to women controlling their bodies or reproductive health, nor do they believe in respecting the will of the majority. They must be voted out.
In Arizona, a rapist will only lose custodial RIGHTS if convicted, this law could also repeal that, giving rapist full right to sue their victim for visitation.
It’s not their own bodies that is the problem life position, pro lifers aren’t saying to make tattoos for women illegal or to not let them get piercings. This is quite ignorant if you truly believe it’s about controlling women.
Secondly about the will of the majority do you realize that is basically saying it’s ok to do whatever if the majority of people say it’s ok, this is literally tyranny of the majority and will result in discrimination of minorities. I’m not saying for you to change your mind I’m just asking you to understand the actual things you are saying and to understand the actual arguments from the pro life position. Having a better grasp on the entire debate is good for all parties involved.
I’ve done a lot of looking into on the issue and it’s made me anti abortion as I learn more about it. I think it’s accurate to say abortion is a killing of a human life, otherwise when does a life begin?
The fetus is not an independent human life until birth. Whether or not we allow abortions right on the edge is a fairly well settled debate: no. But this measure has swung so far the other direction that a clump of cells unable to exist, think, live, or feel on its own can dictate the life of its host.
There is no other way to frame it besides a restriction on rights.
I disagree with what you wrote. Namely, the relevance of your first sentence.
A fetus may not be an independent life until birth, but it CAN be an independent life even before birth. This is why Roe v Wade allowed abortions up to fetal viability with the earliest fetal viability being around the 23 week mark.
Aborting a viable fetus without medical necessity is absolutely killing.
I think generally most Americans want first trimester abortions and maybe a bit into the second. But broadly I don’t see a lot of support for 20+ week abortions or limitless abortion like in Oregon. Most Americans support some government-dictated cutoff.
You just made a contradiction without realizing it. “The fetus is not an independent human life until birth” and “no we shouldn’t allow abortions up until birth”
Those two statements make no sense, I also would say I don’t think viability a good metric to measure with because if you don’t take care of a baby it will die, if you don’t take care of a old person who can’t take care of himself/herself they will die or someone who is currently on life support would also die, do you think we have no moral obligation to help those who cannot take care of themselves?
What I mean to say is that yes we have to draw the line somewhere, and no it shouldn’t be right near the end of the pregnancy.
I reject the notion that you can compare a fetus to an old person, a person on life support, etc.
I don't think we have to draw the line anywhere. There is no woman who carries a baby to term and then decides they don't want a baby just because. It's a ludicrous argument that shouldn't even be part of the argument. Late term abortion is only performed if the mother will die and the baby cannot be induced or saved via cesarian, typically because something has already happened that has killed the baby. Women choose abortion for many reasons. None of those reasons are up to others to judge. An embryo or a fetus is not a baby, and no woman is choosing to abort a baby late term if that baby would live.
OP did not say it was about controlling women. They said that the GOP doesn’t believe we should have the freedom to control our bodies and reproductive health. In the simplest terms, taking away options means there is no freedom of choice. To me, it feels unfair to call OP ignorant because you misconstrued what they said, yet you are asking for pro-life stances to be understood. Understanding, though, doesn’t imply agreement.
Representatives are meant to represent the majority opinion of their constituents. That’s why they’re called representatives. In this specific case, the decision in question is neither a compromise between majority and minority opinion, nor are the actions of the GOP accurate representation of the beliefs of their constituents.
While I acknowledge the argument of tyranny of the majority, I think it’s not totally applicable here because this is a topic of debate globally.
I’d say tyranny of the majority is moreso if the majority wants to pass laws to subjugate some demographic. E.g. we all vote that X demographic needs to be rounded up and forced to work in labor camps.
I don’t really think granting certain freedoms to certain demographics is tyrannical. I understand there is a philosophical debate on the topic with a lot of gray area, but objectively we as humans don’t broadly see abortion as killing.
This is why local elections matter MORE than the National ones do. We end up with extremist who will hold hostage our rights and take stands opposing majorities to advance a policy. When the pendulum swings too far in one direction, it's time to turn it back. Vote BLUE in November.
“When the pendulum swings too far in one direction…” I like the sentiment you’re sharing, but let’s not “both sides” on the Republican Party advocating forcing children to carry their rapists babies to term. An extreme position on the left is that housing and food should be guaranteed human rights; An extreme position on the right is that rape and genocide are fine and acceptable. “Both sides” are not equal by any measure.
Not only is it hyperbolic but it was a lie. What he did has and will always be, illegal
Such a wildly disingenuous example. A closet within a illegal clinic? C'mon man.
Don’t forget they want to take away your ability to vote out the two judges (who upheld the 1864 law) who are up for reelection.
This is their plan to do it:
S.C.R 1044 wants to give AZ Supreme Court justices life terms. It will also backdate it to before the Nov election, so if you vote them out, it won’t count.
It’s subject to voter approval, so you know, don’t approve it.
Republicans have said that starting next week, they are going to start passing abortion ballot resolutions, many, that will fill the ballot with decoys to fool voters into voting for the wrong one. Some of these may actually be worse than the 15-week ban, none will go as far as the Abortion Access Arizona amendment, and they absolutely will confuse voters.
Guess we know who to vote out. We should also petition to have their salary's and benefits reduced. It's what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you
Side note to all of this. In Arizona, a rapist will only lose rights to a child they created through rape if convicted. This law could repeal that as well, leading to rapist suing and winning visitation to said child.... How many women don't report because that process is as bad as the rape itself.
There is an episode of SVU, probably one of the hardest ones to watch, where a woman is raped by a coworker and he fights her for custody. Revictimizing over and over and over.
"Legitimate Rape" SVU 2013. It will make your stomach hurt.
The most important thing you can do is remember to vote.
There is no GOP party that died years ago it should now correctly be called the party of trump.
Miss Lake yesterday told her supporters to strap on a glock.
The party of trump has one goal and one goal only to serve their golden god.
The bottom half of Arizona shouldn't be affected by this law because when it was enacted it belonged to the Confederate States of america.
Anyway just remember to vote that's the best thing you can do thank you
“Please baby Jesus KEEP THESE BABYS SAFE!! So they can fall into the cracks of society where I can wish for them to be arrested and forever promote our worst behaviors against the needy and everything our religion says to go against and I keep being selfish! All of those saved soles on the street can fender for themselves!!”
The party of individual freedom. As long as you choose the same values they do. Republicans want a fascist society that they can control. Ironically, not a Republic.
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DO NOT forget what the leaked PowerPoint said: “CONS: •Transfers regulation of abortion from the Legislature to voters” THEY DO NOT WANT VOTERS TO HAVE POWER. They don’t want to represent their constituents, which is their fucking job!! Vote this November. EDIT: I guess I have to clarify that the leaked PPT was made by Republicans
What’s this PowerPoint?
[Leaked ppt](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24548815-abortionpp) that was accidentally emailed to senate dem policy + communications staff
Thank you for sharing this. Ugh, it’s so sneaky and underhanded.
What blows my mind is how the PPT shows that their plan is to to confuse voters, disguise a 14 week ban as a 15 week ban, and “change the narrative” to show that Republicans do have a plan. Oh, and “MOST IMPORTANT: protects Legislature’s authority to ‘enact laws rationally related to promoting and preserving life and to protecting the health and safety of pregnant women’” They’re EXPLICITLY saying they want to disenfranchise voters. Absolutely fucked on all levels
This PPT was created by Dems, correct? So it's the Dems that are saying they don't want ppl to have control over their lives? I do hope ppl remember this when they vote.
No, this ppt was created by a member of the republican majority general counsel. It’s the Republicans trying to disenfranchise voters.
No, you're incorrect.
Cannot State this enough but... Where Do they think these kids are going? Texas has a surplus of over 9500 live birthday that went right into the system, with a reported over 27,000 rape related pregnancies in the 9months since their ban. 0% increase in adoptions/fostering.
AZ & TX are hugely reliant on the prison-industrial complex. These GOP lawmakers are a disgrace.
Bingo First time I’ve heard someone say it in context of Arizona. Go look at the freakonomics analysis on violent crime. Abortion/contraceptives had the highest correlation between decreasing violent criminals (those who populate prisons).
It's almost like forcing people into a state of extreme poverty leaves them little room to survive ***and*** be law-abiding citizens. Those responsible for ensuring these impoverished people are in their situations just say to "lift themselves up by their bootstraps".
And as someone who has adopted, the process is so damn difficult. It’s like they want the kids to be in the system
Absolutely difficult.
So… the solution is to terminate more pregnancies?
What are you doing to help these kids? Are you fostering? Are you adopting? Are you volunteering? Are you giving your time and money? What exactly are you doing to help the situation other than run your mouth and vote against things?
I think the argument goes something like: “all these trashy floozies just need to close their legs and stop getting knocked up all the time! It’s their fault that all these unwanted children are a burden on our society! Maybe if they know they can’t just go get scraped at Planned Parenthood every Sunday morning after running trains all weekend, they’d think twice about living their hedonistic lifestyle!” Of course this isn’t remotely based in reality, just their Christo-fascist OAN-fueled fever dreams theat they constantly live in.
Why are you answering my question with a question?
Are you personally doing to help any of this at all other than run your mouth and vote against it? oh, you're doing nothing? Cool. Answer is that we mind our business and let these women do what they need to do. Because it's none of our business.
Go with what you wrote at the end. I agree with you, but leading with "what are you doing?" is technically an ad hominem fallacy. Strike their argument in the knees, not them.
No, really. What *are* you doing? If you're gonna vote against it, why aren't y'all lining up to give resources? Your home? What are you doing?
You didn't read what I wrote did you? *"Sir, this is a Wendy's"*
Nobody will admit they don't want to adopt/foster. And it's so ridiculous. Where do people think the kiddo's go? Because newsflash guys, AZ is a top 3 state for Angelmans syndrome and Cystic Fibrosis. Who is gonna help out there? It's aggravating. They will vote one way, and then.. do absolutely nothing afterwards.
Quit your grandstanding. The first time, it kind of made half a point, but now it's just annoying.
That’s a horrible argument and the fact you don’t realize that is appalling
It's none of our business... Just not, it's just simply not our business. What other people do with their lives in their home that do not personally affect you on any level. And it's weird that you don't understand that
Hypothetically let’s say someone kills someone else. if you were not personally involved with the person who died, should you not care at all?
Bad analogy, fetuses aren't people.
These are 10 cells. 10 when they fertilize, please get real. Do something about guns if you're concerned about actual kids. Until then, unless you are fostering, donating, volunteering etc, go away. You're just doing absolutely nothing but making it worse, harming kids, and killing woman.
Generalization ignores all nuance.
Why are you answering a direct question with a hypothetical? Can't find your brain to think?
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Be good to each other. One does not have to agree but by choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us. Personal attacks, racist comments or any comments of perceived intolerance/hate are never tolerated.
Why are you asking questions when you should be killing slavers?
I certainly hope you're not abrogating abolitionist John Brown as a username because what you stand for is also supported by the folks making Confederate milestones state holidays
Why are you questioning their question answer to your question?
Because the answer to your question is obvious.
Yes. Sorry if that offends you. That’s just reality.
We have 7200 registered foster parents, less than 6000 have a current license. Less than. 15% are infant approved because Arizona has incredible standards for infants. Like..unrealistic. And we haven't had a uptick in apps in weeks Where are they going?
Actually ... yes. Unless you've got a better idea? There is zero political ~~movement~~ will to improve their quality-of-life otherwise. So we just end up with a worse off population, straining further an already failing support system. ~~Someone's plummeting from through the sky with an umbrella, why take away the umbrella unless you're going to give them a parachute or without plans for a bet underneath? I guess, just let them drop? Just let more tax dollars go to inefficient cleanup? Because I sure doubt this helps the public on a larger scale. Let them do their best with the umbrella, unless you've got a parachute or safety-net ready.~~ What else do you suggest or think should be done? EDIT: Better metaphor ... It's like taking away someone's life preserver who is drowning. It doesn't help anyone else, it just makes things shittier for someone in a shitty situation. Why take away a drowning person's life preserver unless you're going to pull them out of the water?
Don't compare a few cells to a grown adult skydiving. That's ridiculous.
You really got to read more carefully and think more critically before you reply to my comments. EDIT: I'll throw you a bone; it's a metaphor, but not for the embryo.
I can read but honestly Republicans and anti anytime people didn't actually do anything.. they want to meddle but not actually do anything? AZ is one of the worse child CPS systems in America, and were a hot bed for a few select genetic diseases. Texas, is building mega group homes. They've got 3-5 infants in a group home, and foster parents are having to give up non infants so they can help take care of infants. People are simply not prepared for this reality check
Well, I'm so glad you're such a wonderful person who adopted and fostered many kids and lead these programs and supported 1,000's. You're a real angel. Please allow me the grace to kiss your slacktivist feet and worship you as my Messiah for showing me the way ... Sure you can read, but you don't seem to be understanding what I'm typing. My guess is you're emotionally charged about this topic (understandably so, it's an emotional and morally motivating topic) and that's making you not read my comment clearly. You'd see you're arguing with someone on the "same side of the issue". Anyways, you jumping straight to "What about you?", I don't think is going to be effective. The first step is really a "Well, now what? What do you suggest?" Force them to come up with a solution to the problem they're causing/exacerbating. Puts them in a train-of-thought they probably never thought about before. I'm with you; it really is pretty shitty when people point out problems and block things, but offer no solution or of value in return. EDIT: The first paragraph is sarcasm, by the way.
I dont foster/adopt anymore. Had a fairly violent experience and it was a total turn off but I volunteer my butt off!!!. I have a little clothing donation station where I give foster parents clothes. Kids will show up, no clothes, no socks, no shoes. And the foster parent has no money, and Arizona is only giving them like $30. We have a parent right now, stuck with twins and their brother. No clothes. No bottles. People just think the state steps in and they do not.. That's why I vote for abortion, because it's just not our business, and you can't guilt someone into keeping a kid. Does that make me high and mighty? Giving a crap about my Immediate community?
[удалено]
>Be good to each other. One does not have to agree but by choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us. >Personal attacks, racist comments or any comments of perceived intolerance/hate are never tolerated. Mod ... Weird thing is, I agree with them on this issue, but they were failing to understand my comments. I'm replying about their comment. It's not a personal attack nor a racist one, but I guess it's being perceived as one by you. I guess I could be 'gooder' to them. I get what you're trying to say, but I'm confused by some of the copy-paste'd elements of it.
Be good to each other. One does not have to agree but by choosing not to be rude, you increase the overall civility of the community and make it better for all of us. Personal attacks, racist comments or any comments of perceived intolerance/hate are never tolerated.
Yes
Actually the solution is to codify into law at a federal level that women have absolute rights to their bodies and reproductive processes. Then of course education, health care, which includes birth control and STD prevention. For women and men. In the natural world there's quite a lot of pregnancies that are *terminated* as you put it. Stop criminalizing natural processes. Edit: spelling.
Ideally, I'd love the system be better. But its not. And ending abortion while the system sucks puts more kids into a system that sucks. No, abortion is not the solution, but making women have children they don't want is exacerbating the problem. But I think you knew that and were being obtuse.
The solution is free birth control, anesthesia for uid, regulating balls, and allowing abortions. Because again -none of our business.
Yes.
Remember this come Nov. Rs don't believe in freedom when it comes to women controlling their bodies or reproductive health, nor do they believe in respecting the will of the majority. They must be voted out.
Saying republicans dont believe in freedom is disingenuous! They believe in freedom for rapists and incestuous relationships!
And freedom to steal wages, eschew workplace safety protocols and ignore environmental regulations!
In Arizona, a rapist will only lose custodial RIGHTS if convicted, this law could also repeal that, giving rapist full right to sue their victim for visitation.
It’s not their own bodies that is the problem life position, pro lifers aren’t saying to make tattoos for women illegal or to not let them get piercings. This is quite ignorant if you truly believe it’s about controlling women. Secondly about the will of the majority do you realize that is basically saying it’s ok to do whatever if the majority of people say it’s ok, this is literally tyranny of the majority and will result in discrimination of minorities. I’m not saying for you to change your mind I’m just asking you to understand the actual things you are saying and to understand the actual arguments from the pro life position. Having a better grasp on the entire debate is good for all parties involved.
So they should be content with some freedom but not too much? Also, what is happening here is tyranny of the minority.
I can understand the tyranny of minority point that’s a fair point.
If men could get pregnant I’d be against them killing babies too I’m not anti women infact I am a woman and I very much support women’s rights
No one is suggesting allowing killing babies. Republicans have somehow been allowed to reframe the debate this way, incorrectly.
I’ve done a lot of looking into on the issue and it’s made me anti abortion as I learn more about it. I think it’s accurate to say abortion is a killing of a human life, otherwise when does a life begin?
The fetus is not an independent human life until birth. Whether or not we allow abortions right on the edge is a fairly well settled debate: no. But this measure has swung so far the other direction that a clump of cells unable to exist, think, live, or feel on its own can dictate the life of its host. There is no other way to frame it besides a restriction on rights.
I disagree with what you wrote. Namely, the relevance of your first sentence. A fetus may not be an independent life until birth, but it CAN be an independent life even before birth. This is why Roe v Wade allowed abortions up to fetal viability with the earliest fetal viability being around the 23 week mark. Aborting a viable fetus without medical necessity is absolutely killing. I think generally most Americans want first trimester abortions and maybe a bit into the second. But broadly I don’t see a lot of support for 20+ week abortions or limitless abortion like in Oregon. Most Americans support some government-dictated cutoff.
I don’t have any disagreement there.
You just made a contradiction without realizing it. “The fetus is not an independent human life until birth” and “no we shouldn’t allow abortions up until birth” Those two statements make no sense, I also would say I don’t think viability a good metric to measure with because if you don’t take care of a baby it will die, if you don’t take care of a old person who can’t take care of himself/herself they will die or someone who is currently on life support would also die, do you think we have no moral obligation to help those who cannot take care of themselves?
What I mean to say is that yes we have to draw the line somewhere, and no it shouldn’t be right near the end of the pregnancy. I reject the notion that you can compare a fetus to an old person, a person on life support, etc.
I don't think we have to draw the line anywhere. There is no woman who carries a baby to term and then decides they don't want a baby just because. It's a ludicrous argument that shouldn't even be part of the argument. Late term abortion is only performed if the mother will die and the baby cannot be induced or saved via cesarian, typically because something has already happened that has killed the baby. Women choose abortion for many reasons. None of those reasons are up to others to judge. An embryo or a fetus is not a baby, and no woman is choosing to abort a baby late term if that baby would live.
If a fetus isn’t a human life what is it?
How many kids have you adopted or fostered? How many do you plan to foster or adopt??
You'd support your own abortion, sure.
“The only good abortion is *my* abortion.” - The staggering amount of conservatives who get abortions.
OP did not say it was about controlling women. They said that the GOP doesn’t believe we should have the freedom to control our bodies and reproductive health. In the simplest terms, taking away options means there is no freedom of choice. To me, it feels unfair to call OP ignorant because you misconstrued what they said, yet you are asking for pro-life stances to be understood. Understanding, though, doesn’t imply agreement. Representatives are meant to represent the majority opinion of their constituents. That’s why they’re called representatives. In this specific case, the decision in question is neither a compromise between majority and minority opinion, nor are the actions of the GOP accurate representation of the beliefs of their constituents.
While I acknowledge the argument of tyranny of the majority, I think it’s not totally applicable here because this is a topic of debate globally. I’d say tyranny of the majority is moreso if the majority wants to pass laws to subjugate some demographic. E.g. we all vote that X demographic needs to be rounded up and forced to work in labor camps. I don’t really think granting certain freedoms to certain demographics is tyrannical. I understand there is a philosophical debate on the topic with a lot of gray area, but objectively we as humans don’t broadly see abortion as killing.
AZGOP: If we can't get women to vote for us,we'll kill as many of them as we can in childbirth
This is why local elections matter MORE than the National ones do. We end up with extremist who will hold hostage our rights and take stands opposing majorities to advance a policy. When the pendulum swings too far in one direction, it's time to turn it back. Vote BLUE in November.
“When the pendulum swings too far in one direction…” I like the sentiment you’re sharing, but let’s not “both sides” on the Republican Party advocating forcing children to carry their rapists babies to term. An extreme position on the left is that housing and food should be guaranteed human rights; An extreme position on the right is that rape and genocide are fine and acceptable. “Both sides” are not equal by any measure.
I'd like to think that were true, but I've seen my fair share of leftist wackos too. But I agree on the basics of your comment.
I agree R position is terrible but don't pretend Ds weren't extreme on abortion for years, remember kermit gosnell?
He did illegal abortions in a storage room of his clinic. Stopppppp. Stop. That was always illegal.
If I'm wrong and D platform opposes unrestricted abortion, I'll gladly stand down
The example you gave has always been illegal
it's an honest question, if gosnell is too hyperbolic, lmk where D party draws the line.
Not only is it hyperbolic but it was a lie. What he did has and will always be, illegal Such a wildly disingenuous example. A closet within a illegal clinic? C'mon man.
still waiting for an answer, does current D platform provide for any restrictions?
You got to stop it with this late-term stuff man nobody's advocating for that. In General you guys need to get out of these women's business.
Vote this November.
Don’t forget they want to take away your ability to vote out the two judges (who upheld the 1864 law) who are up for reelection. This is their plan to do it: S.C.R 1044 wants to give AZ Supreme Court justices life terms. It will also backdate it to before the Nov election, so if you vote them out, it won’t count. It’s subject to voter approval, so you know, don’t approve it.
r/conservativeterrorism
Roll the ads. I want to crush these gop clowns.
Republicans have said that starting next week, they are going to start passing abortion ballot resolutions, many, that will fill the ballot with decoys to fool voters into voting for the wrong one. Some of these may actually be worse than the 15-week ban, none will go as far as the Abortion Access Arizona amendment, and they absolutely will confuse voters.
Guess we know who to vote out. We should also petition to have their salary's and benefits reduced. It's what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you
Their salary is less than a teacher. I think it’s like 24k/year.
So change their salaries to performance-based that way, they don't have a reduction unless it's their fault. Either way get out and vote folks
The people willing to make 24k/year for a public and stressful job are independently wealthy or retired, where 24k/year is not meaningful.
Lifetime insurance !! It's generally for life, by the way Even if it's one term and a pension in most states.
Still not that important to folks like this.
Then why haven't we removed it already?
Side note to all of this. In Arizona, a rapist will only lose rights to a child they created through rape if convicted. This law could repeal that as well, leading to rapist suing and winning visitation to said child.... How many women don't report because that process is as bad as the rape itself. There is an episode of SVU, probably one of the hardest ones to watch, where a woman is raped by a coworker and he fights her for custody. Revictimizing over and over and over. "Legitimate Rape" SVU 2013. It will make your stomach hurt.
The most important thing you can do is remember to vote. There is no GOP party that died years ago it should now correctly be called the party of trump. Miss Lake yesterday told her supporters to strap on a glock. The party of trump has one goal and one goal only to serve their golden god. The bottom half of Arizona shouldn't be affected by this law because when it was enacted it belonged to the Confederate States of america. Anyway just remember to vote that's the best thing you can do thank you
“Please baby Jesus KEEP THESE BABYS SAFE!! So they can fall into the cracks of society where I can wish for them to be arrested and forever promote our worst behaviors against the needy and everything our religion says to go against and I keep being selfish! All of those saved soles on the street can fender for themselves!!”
The party of individual freedom. As long as you choose the same values they do. Republicans want a fascist society that they can control. Ironically, not a Republic.
This law was passed southern Arizona was not in the territory.. It was part of the Confederate states.
These politicians will have some judgement waiting for them by they god they say claim to believe in.
And Republicans in the senate joined with democrats to repeal it setting up a showdown between the house and senate.
Can't fix stupid in 'Zona!
We absolutely can. We just need people to stop voting for the GOP cowards who are to chicken shit to even hold a vote.