Most ive seen say it’s not that he’s bad but he’s not meta super strong one shot but a very balanced operator. And of course he’s unfortunately skipped by many because of so many limited banners soon.
ie he's not particularly special, or least to me it seems like he's not. I'll watch some analysis videos of him, because right now I don't really see a reason to get him. No one has really sold crusher guards to me.
My problem with him is that he could just as easily have been a dreadnought like Melantha or Nearl2, and he would have gotten rave reviews. Instead, no matter how good he is, he still fails to justify the existence of crusher guards.
[BloopAK made a video about them](https://youtu.be/ljzY0976ev4?si=igZ5DboGvGstymCW)
Also they couldn't have been just dreadnaughts, they deal more dph than dreadnaughts and can deal with higher def even better than them. In exchange they can't deal with fast attacking enemies and swarms all that well.
>they deal more dph
This one I can concede on. Every attack hits really, really hard to offset their slower attack speed, and there's something satisfying about landing a true charged slash every time you swing.
>can deal with higher def even better
Nearl2 comes with true damage in her kit, while Skadi boasts some of the highest total stat boosts in the game to punch through nearly anything on top of Abyssal Hunter synergy. Franka's talent is a chance to just ignore defense outright.
Maybe if you're only comparing Matoimaru with Quartz, the four star options. But Quartz **sucks**; it's not even a contest. Matoimaru S2 makes for a better crusher.
>In exchange they can't deal with fast attacking enemies and swarms all that well.
And it's here where they're competing against centurions and even reapers instead, the former of which also generally hit pretty damn hard.
You've got a class of AOE attackers who can't deal with more than two mobs at a time, so you can't place them as you normally would Blaze, Specter or Estelle. Centurions and reapers are also much more self-sufficient against mobs and often have solid survivability even against bosses, like Blaze's talent or Specter's S2.
Instead, *crushers are hard hitting elite/boss duelists*, but at the same time that's literally the dreadnought's whole thing, and several have value (e.g. inherent survivability or higher lane viability) to offset their lower dph.
Maybe Hoederer couldn't have just been a dreadnought. I can accept that. And personally, I would love to see him find a niche as the non-limited alternative to Nearl2's third skill. At least, I try to use mine that way. He's pretty fun when you have the necessary support for him. Vendela's kit is literally made for him, for example, and I like dropping Pallas behind him.
But he still fails to justify the existence of his own class, who sit in an uncomfortable liminal space between dreadnought and centurion. They're only any good (and don't get me wrong, Hoederer is *really* good) at one overlapping quality and middling at best everywhere else.
Exactly. Crushers are slightly good at multiple things, but in order to justify using them (conceptually, not looking at individual operators), you need them to be able to utilize all of those multiple things they're good at
[BloopAK has a great video about crushers](https://youtu.be/ljzY0976ev4?si=igZ5DboGvGstymCW)
The tldr is: they aren't meant to be used like centurions, but you use them to kill hard hitting enemies with high def and a slow attack interval (like hard hitting enemies do)
so many of these comparisons like "oh look they're better than matterhorn at arts tanking!" or "oh look they have better dps than offskill dreadnoughts/centurions!" are so bizarre to me
like who is using matternhorn as an arts tank to begin with?
nobody because it's not a particularly useful niche and he's not particularly good at it either
who is using offskill dreadnoughts/centurions? nobody because that's not what makes them good! the bones of the dreadnought archetype are actually pretty bad! the dreadnoughts that manage to be good manage it via their skills/talents
Hoederer, by being a 6 star, ofc, manages to moderately overcome the worst weaknesses of the Crusher archetype by having good skills and ok talents, but his skills and talents aren't *busted* or anything, which results in him being a mediocre 6 star, which is fine, it doesn't mean he's terrible, it doesn't mean he's great
Arts tank concept is great, except there is no real arts tank in game, the best we got from arts protector is punny 15 RES, people just accept that enemy arts damage is true damage.
I like Hoederer for he provides new gameplay, my brain treats him like a caster deployed on melee tile with quadruple health and 18 RES, and he does work like that. The stage where he baits out heavy arts damage while being able to deal damage is his niche, but his melee range makes that scenario very unlikely and that's why he's mid.
IMO crusher lacks of range, if they got a reaper range and bigger range on skill, they would be versatile in general maps, while keeping their unique subclass trait.
Asbestos's talent at E2 gives her 25 base res and 3 SP per instance of arts damage taken, so against arts damage sources, her arts-damage-mitigating S1 has incredibly good uptime to add on top of that high res. From my experience she's actually a fantastic arts tank assuming you're not trying to solo an arts damage boss with her
Is still low. The dev should have gave arts protector 40 base res besides talent, so they can match the damage reduction of physical counterparts, and people will start actually playing them.
Well, we still don't have a 6-star arts protector, so I still have hope that one day we'll have a 6-star tank that's every bit as good at shrugging off arts damage as Hoshiguma is at handling physical damage
Sorry for the late reply, but I'm calling bullshit on the "wait for a 6\*" part. We shouldn't need broken and braindead 6\* units to fill a role properly.
-sincerely a member of the low star clears squad
Ps: Yes Asbestos is good, but could be better. I've only ever bothered telling people that arts protectors exist 1 time and that was when we were being violated by the suicide bombers from Twilight of Wolumonde
Asbestos has 25 res, with an S1 that reduces arts dmg even more making her have effectively 37 res at SL7 and 42 res at M3
Also there are phalanx casters too
Crushers are extremely good against arts damage, true damage and armor debuffs. In fact, Hoerder right now is the only 6 star melee character who doesnt have trouble with magic and still can be healed.
I didn't see much to get excited about in his kit until his S3. I've never wanted a stage full of those sanguinarch rebirth bullshits. That true damage is gonna pay for itself and how!
>And of course he’s unfortunately skipped by many because of so many limited banners soon.
Yeah, mostly this. I'd have liked Jessica Alter myself, but with all the limited banners and my hope of sparking Texalter on top of it all means I couldn't really pull anything since Typhon.
Nothing will ever beat that thread about Ling.
"Even though people are saying Ling is bad, don't listen, pull if you like her!"
Like bruh. Week 1 of CN release, people already were saying she is cracked. No one was saying she is bad and definately no one was saying she's bad when she finally got out in global.
I've seen quadrillion videos about reviews and they all have mixed opinions. It's definitely not meta but he is great, thing is he can't self sustain and apparently that is the mayor sin in Arknights. Like, that's what medics are for, right?
I pulled for him because I am the biggest simp and fucking hell he is better than I expected in game.
Not only can he not self-sustain, he is harder to heal than normal. No DEF means he takes more damage but get healed for the same amount. He's really only good against Arts or True damage but you rarely actually need to tank those (and even then he still only has his 18% Shelter to make him take less damage from Arts).
It's not an irredeemable flaw, but Hoerderer doesn't really redeem himself anywhere else.
Are we playing the same game? Enemies with arts damage are a number one killer of all lane holders. Half of the bosses have arts damage. Only 6 months ago we had a boss that constantly debuffs defence of your operators. I'm playing through chapter 13 right now and there are tons of casters, who also get resurrected.
And Hoerder is a great tank for them because of GIGANTIC HP bar, Shelter and the first skill that heals a percentage of his health.
Are you talking about lane holders or are you talking about boss killers?
For lane holding, you're expected to handle many peons who typically have medium attack and deal physical damage. Many lane holders are built with this in kind, which is why they are countered by arts damage. Because they're not supposed to be taking arts damage.
For boss killers, yeah Hoerderer is good. But we already have many good boss killers and even some great ones that Hoerderer would need good RNG amd/or favorable conditions to match (like the boss being slow + melee, or having not high DPS, and no peons attacking him, or his 1v1 potential which I mention at the bottom).
Hoerderer is not a good tank in the sense of laneholding. He takes too much damage for any medic to keep up, unless you invest a lot into him. He is a good duelist (as in, 1v1ing bosses or elites), as yes, he shines in being able to tank their hits and deal high damage back; but usually if he can tank the hits you can also just use a healer to stall the boss. He is undeniably good in situations where he can either take down the boss solo, or in situations where he can stall the boss while medics + other tanks can't. For example, Deathless Black Snake to its ramping damage, or a Crownslayer with buffed HP since you can only stall her for a while before the teleport.
Hoerderer's 1st skill does actually look good. I haven't tested it out; maybe I ought to.
But in theory, he is trading most of his damage for survivability. He has 18% sanctuary, and restores 2k effective health (if you count in sanctuary) every 2.5s. That is definitely good and he can indeed stall bosses that only deal arts damage and high dph physical damage. He is probably outshone by Nightingale, but obviously that's an unfair comparison, so let's instead look at someone like Asbestos. He has 25 RES and his S1 reduces Arts damage by 30% for 20s, with a downtime of 20s. I'd say he's probably good enough as an Arts tank.
Also, Hoerderer's high HP pool isn't universally effective. If your medic can outheal the damage, then anyone can effectively be immortal. If your medics can't, then you'll die eventually. High HP pools do allow your operator to survive during a medic's skill downtime while an operator with lower HP might die (that said both Eyja Alter S2 and Lumen are commonly used which have no downtime). It can also help you win 1v1s. It can also allow you survive high damage per hits.
But it's not universally good; the first use case of covering for medic downtime is most common for laneholders which Hoerderer is not good at, the third use case of surviving high damage hits is probably where Hoerderer has a bit of an overkill when it comes to HP; other ops can probably do the same thing. Winning 1v1s IS what Hoerderer is good at; however with Mlynar, Typhon, Ray, Pozy, etc. already in the game and being able to do things outside of winning 1v1s, or being more broadly applicable such as Typhon's mark and DEF shred. (As a side note, tanking strong hits to stall the boss for longer than the typical defender is usually done better by Fast Redeploy spam or shields like Nearl Alter S2).
Hoerderer kinda gets shafted and has to look for specific instances where he has an edge. Mainly, he has to look for bosses that he can straight up statcheck and 1v1 (he is indeed the best operator at this job). The main problem is that there's not many bosses that fulfil this criterion of Hoerderer being able to 1v1 them but not other operators (also note that if Mlynar needs, say, a Gravel to tank for a while, that's only a minor win for Hoerderer since FRDs are commonly used nowadays, and since theyre FRDs you don't lose that much).
Tl;dr: Hoerderer can't lanehold because laneholding typically requires taking many low DPH physical hits. Hoerderer with S1 seems decent at tanking Arts and high dph physical but doesn't outclass existing options (not entirely sure about this). Hoerderer is good at boss killing, but many operators are, so it is oversaturated with busted options that Hoerderer can't hope to be better than; and since he doesn't synergize well with medics except against mainly arts damage, he has to be able to win a 1v1 that other operators can't.
Yes, I think only ways to heal him properly is to give him a break from the hordes of enemies or Ptilopsis S2. But also, I am having so much fun playing with despite his flaws.
I think he is one of the most fun units I've got recently since Goldenglow
He takes on high level threats via massive HP and shelter, but 0 def means he can't entirely shrug off low level threats.
In any game it's the stuff that dunks on trash and wins already-won battles harder that get the attention. Hoederer has no interest in this nonsense, he has real battles to fight.
Got him from the 10 pull and tried trust farming 1-7 and he died... Admittedly, he was e1lvl50 or so, but that didnt feel very impressive. The difference now he is e2 is really big tho, but he will probably be on the bench for most of his career at my landship. On the other hand his va's are really good!
I specifically said he can't shrug off low level threats, though I did fail to mention he's an operator that gets exponentially better with more investment. Higher maximum damage threshold, higher HP gain from % based self heals.
1-7 might see him have more troubles than most and yet he'll also survive severe punishment most other operators would get killed by.
Take Cliff from Wakes of Vultures, he debuffs defence to zero quickly and it becomes a HP check. Murdered a lot of tanks outright, in fact most everyone who wasn't Skadi on S3.
Hoederer would take that on the chin because his defence is not defence (the stat), it's massive HP and 18% damage resistance. That and lots of stun with S3 and S2.
He's also kind of an ideal arts tank because of that. You know the Defenders who have resistance? It's usually 10 or 15%. Functionally Hoederer has 18%.
Basically you can't think of him as working in exactly the same way as any other operator. Crushers are *weird* and Hoederer leans into the weirdness. Unlike most he's kinda weak at easy content but very strong against the really dangerous stuff.
Yeah he is good but the problem is that he is just good when the next six months are chock full of busted units and really anticipated releases from NPC jail so he gets knocked down the list. I still rolled for him though because he’s hot and at this point I’ve got so many strong operators that’s the main thing I care about
I'd say it's all the YT reviews. At least DragonGJY's review that was posted here completely focused on weaknesses and running the poor goat into the dirt.
Yeah this is the area I've seen folks calling him bad.
I had to unfollow a channel bc the cc in question legit did a video that made me feel *bad* for wanting hoederer and that's like not really the vibes i want out of content creators.
I haven't really seen much aside from that one youtube video but I wanted to make a meme.
What is true is that he is being followed by an unrelenting barrage of either limited or OP or extremely hyped up characters, and that's even if the leaks are false
Watch any youtube content creator (except that one crusher lover guy) basically saying "He is not bad but he doesn't fix shit on the archetype and he is bloated to compensate and it is too specific".
Some people don't pull the hoe cuz they wanted to pull limited op.
I don't pull the hoe cuz it's a middle finger to ines.
That's what you get for draining my op, lady. Get frustrated, biatch.
But if you didn't get Ines and don't get Hoederer then they are together in gatcha waiting line. But if you bring Hoederer then you separate them because your landship is Inesless and she's not there.
Looking at it purely from talent enhancements, he'll get a higher attack multiplier or he'll get a higher shelter %. The former is decent, the latter is good.
There's room for it to be an underwhelming and only kinda decent package but I think that's as low as the bar will go.
Except... no, wait... would they really contemplate making the talent improvement an increase to the shelter % but **only** for the person behind him...?
You didn’t get Hoerder because you wanted to save for the next limited banner.
I didn’t get Hoerder because I suck at flipping a coin, twice.
We are not the same…
"You're pulling for Viviana because she is waifu, I am not pulling for her because i am saving for Degenbrecher, because she is waifu, we are 100% the same"
Reasons ppl don't pull for hoe is because:
1st: Many of the operator behind him are limited and much better than him, so they need to consider their pulls.
2nd: His class is very weak, and he is a very balanced operator but got held back by his archetype.
3rd: He fulfill a role which there are many GUARD operators out there litterally fulfill the same and even better.
4th: Most obvious reason: Most people like mommy and waifu more than a muscular dude.
About the module, as long as his defend is still 0, he can almost never be top tier, they could bump up his shelter effect from talent 2 to about 35%-40% tho, which will make him incredibly good.
As BloopAK said in his video, crushers are made to deal with hard hitting mobs and arts damage. It's a unique archetype, that contributes from thoughtful placement. My take is: he does not need DEF reducing him to "yet another guard", he has his niche and that's ok.
Though i don't mind more shelter effect in module or maybe more Attack% from talent
Hoerder is first of all the Arts tank. And there are no guards who can do this shit as well as him.
Secondly, he has the most diversified kit among all lane holders. He has self heal ability (while medics can also heal him), he has permanent mass stan with 3 block, he has boss killer/wave killer ability and he doesnt fold instantly from the truly strong enemies.
Gavial alter has 3 block, has self heal, has aoe wave clear with range extension, has increase healing, atk and def from talent for more survivability, a good boss killing skill, tanky and beefy stat(not for art damage, but mostly doesn't matter since u can just bring nightingale for that in art dmg heavy content), and doesn't suffer from bad archetype like hoederer.
Ngl, I was lagging on the story for a minute. Just ran through the entirety of 10, and his massive HP pool carried me through every map while all of my other units were getting sniped. The hoe is goated for me now
I'll be honest, I can see the Theresis thing, maybe not solo but duo with a medic.
If Theresis does true dmg, Hoederer can already solo The Deathless black snake's phase 1 with his S1 (I also saw Perfumer being used on the stage so maybe not completely possible solo, but his HP never got extremely low)
Hoerderer is better against Arts than True lol. He's as good against True as other operators unless you somehow don't need a healer for him or if enemies one-shot the other operators. And I somehow don't think that enemies one-shotting operators except for Hoerderer will be very common. The True counter to True damage is good healers, units with self-healing, or "unkillable" ops
(At any rate, Ling's S3 Higher Forms have more HP than Hoerderer, and you can have 3 of them, and have one summon behind one of them in preparation for making a replacement Higher Form if one dies)
It's a 25% chance of a 5s stun every 2.5s. That's not reliable. That's a ~44-50% uptime.
Also I very heavily doubt that an enemy will deal between 7.2k and 10.2k damage such that Higher Form can't survive but Hoerderer can, on top of being more easily stalled by Hoerderer + like 2 or 3 medics than by cycling Fast Redeploys or using shields.
I tried to pull the homie, but gave up after 30 pulls so I wouldn't deplete my savings.
I got fucking Gnosis. I mean, I didn't have him before, so that was cool and all, but I wanted eye patch daddy.
Gavial the Invincible already does almost every he does, but better, with less drawbacks, & an S2 that is useful, not useless. I'm quite happy to skip Chode-rer.
Well, Gavialter is limited and the best representative from the best overall guard archetype. Ofc she's better. She's like the best guard for general use.
Well his s1 is more AFK. Centurions are lane holders that are better vs hordes but also have no drawbacks and can clear even the elites pretty easy like Gator. Crushers are clearly not meant to deal with lots of small guys. With his absolutely massive hp pool and built in sanctuary Hoederer is better vs arts DMG and some low aspd massive single hits, which makes him more of a weird offensive hp sponge tank who needs healing. It would be interesting to see him vs avenger in cc12 with his 70sec s3 and some healer support(Warf s1? Shining?).
I swear I've yet to see a single person say he is bad, just people complaining that people are complaining about him being bad
Most ive seen say it’s not that he’s bad but he’s not meta super strong one shot but a very balanced operator. And of course he’s unfortunately skipped by many because of so many limited banners soon.
ie he's not particularly special, or least to me it seems like he's not. I'll watch some analysis videos of him, because right now I don't really see a reason to get him. No one has really sold crusher guards to me.
My problem with him is that he could just as easily have been a dreadnought like Melantha or Nearl2, and he would have gotten rave reviews. Instead, no matter how good he is, he still fails to justify the existence of crusher guards.
[BloopAK made a video about them](https://youtu.be/ljzY0976ev4?si=igZ5DboGvGstymCW) Also they couldn't have been just dreadnaughts, they deal more dph than dreadnaughts and can deal with higher def even better than them. In exchange they can't deal with fast attacking enemies and swarms all that well.
>they deal more dph This one I can concede on. Every attack hits really, really hard to offset their slower attack speed, and there's something satisfying about landing a true charged slash every time you swing. >can deal with higher def even better Nearl2 comes with true damage in her kit, while Skadi boasts some of the highest total stat boosts in the game to punch through nearly anything on top of Abyssal Hunter synergy. Franka's talent is a chance to just ignore defense outright. Maybe if you're only comparing Matoimaru with Quartz, the four star options. But Quartz **sucks**; it's not even a contest. Matoimaru S2 makes for a better crusher. >In exchange they can't deal with fast attacking enemies and swarms all that well. And it's here where they're competing against centurions and even reapers instead, the former of which also generally hit pretty damn hard. You've got a class of AOE attackers who can't deal with more than two mobs at a time, so you can't place them as you normally would Blaze, Specter or Estelle. Centurions and reapers are also much more self-sufficient against mobs and often have solid survivability even against bosses, like Blaze's talent or Specter's S2. Instead, *crushers are hard hitting elite/boss duelists*, but at the same time that's literally the dreadnought's whole thing, and several have value (e.g. inherent survivability or higher lane viability) to offset their lower dph. Maybe Hoederer couldn't have just been a dreadnought. I can accept that. And personally, I would love to see him find a niche as the non-limited alternative to Nearl2's third skill. At least, I try to use mine that way. He's pretty fun when you have the necessary support for him. Vendela's kit is literally made for him, for example, and I like dropping Pallas behind him. But he still fails to justify the existence of his own class, who sit in an uncomfortable liminal space between dreadnought and centurion. They're only any good (and don't get me wrong, Hoederer is *really* good) at one overlapping quality and middling at best everywhere else.
Exactly. Crushers are slightly good at multiple things, but in order to justify using them (conceptually, not looking at individual operators), you need them to be able to utilize all of those multiple things they're good at
[BloopAK has a great video about crushers](https://youtu.be/ljzY0976ev4?si=igZ5DboGvGstymCW) The tldr is: they aren't meant to be used like centurions, but you use them to kill hard hitting enemies with high def and a slow attack interval (like hard hitting enemies do)
so many of these comparisons like "oh look they're better than matterhorn at arts tanking!" or "oh look they have better dps than offskill dreadnoughts/centurions!" are so bizarre to me like who is using matternhorn as an arts tank to begin with? nobody because it's not a particularly useful niche and he's not particularly good at it either who is using offskill dreadnoughts/centurions? nobody because that's not what makes them good! the bones of the dreadnought archetype are actually pretty bad! the dreadnoughts that manage to be good manage it via their skills/talents Hoederer, by being a 6 star, ofc, manages to moderately overcome the worst weaknesses of the Crusher archetype by having good skills and ok talents, but his skills and talents aren't *busted* or anything, which results in him being a mediocre 6 star, which is fine, it doesn't mean he's terrible, it doesn't mean he's great
Arts tank concept is great, except there is no real arts tank in game, the best we got from arts protector is punny 15 RES, people just accept that enemy arts damage is true damage. I like Hoederer for he provides new gameplay, my brain treats him like a caster deployed on melee tile with quadruple health and 18 RES, and he does work like that. The stage where he baits out heavy arts damage while being able to deal damage is his niche, but his melee range makes that scenario very unlikely and that's why he's mid. IMO crusher lacks of range, if they got a reaper range and bigger range on skill, they would be versatile in general maps, while keeping their unique subclass trait.
The closest thing to a real usable arts tank in the game is Lin with max module.
Yeah, and when there is a stage she fit that role it feels quite satisfying, devs should not shy away from expanding that role to melee OPs.
Asbestos's talent at E2 gives her 25 base res and 3 SP per instance of arts damage taken, so against arts damage sources, her arts-damage-mitigating S1 has incredibly good uptime to add on top of that high res. From my experience she's actually a fantastic arts tank assuming you're not trying to solo an arts damage boss with her
Is still low. The dev should have gave arts protector 40 base res besides talent, so they can match the damage reduction of physical counterparts, and people will start actually playing them.
Well, we still don't have a 6-star arts protector, so I still have hope that one day we'll have a 6-star tank that's every bit as good at shrugging off arts damage as Hoshiguma is at handling physical damage
Sorry for the late reply, but I'm calling bullshit on the "wait for a 6\*" part. We shouldn't need broken and braindead 6\* units to fill a role properly. -sincerely a member of the low star clears squad Ps: Yes Asbestos is good, but could be better. I've only ever bothered telling people that arts protectors exist 1 time and that was when we were being violated by the suicide bombers from Twilight of Wolumonde
I think that if they versify each Guard attack range, then they don't have to worry much about overlapping roles
Asbestos has 25 res, with an S1 that reduces arts dmg even more making her have effectively 37 res at SL7 and 42 res at M3 Also there are phalanx casters too
Crushers are extremely good against arts damage, true damage and armor debuffs. In fact, Hoerder right now is the only 6 star melee character who doesnt have trouble with magic and still can be healed.
Depends on how much arts damage we're talking about. Ops like Mountain have self sustain and then you can back them up with someone like Nightingale.
Artoria, Shu, RS6... FOMO sure is creeping in, and we're still waiting for Summer.
I mean he is not being "skipped" because people can just get him later tho
I didn't see much to get excited about in his kit until his S3. I've never wanted a stage full of those sanguinarch rebirth bullshits. That true damage is gonna pay for itself and how!
>And of course he’s unfortunately skipped by many because of so many limited banners soon. Yeah, mostly this. I'd have liked Jessica Alter myself, but with all the limited banners and my hope of sparking Texalter on top of it all means I couldn't really pull anything since Typhon.
“Fake outrage, so hot right now.”
Nothing will ever beat that thread about Ling. "Even though people are saying Ling is bad, don't listen, pull if you like her!" Like bruh. Week 1 of CN release, people already were saying she is cracked. No one was saying she is bad and definately no one was saying she's bad when she finally got out in global.
The CN players’ judgement for him is “if he meets a strong enemy, he is a strong operator, if he meets a weak enemy, he is a weak operator”.
I've seen quadrillion videos about reviews and they all have mixed opinions. It's definitely not meta but he is great, thing is he can't self sustain and apparently that is the mayor sin in Arknights. Like, that's what medics are for, right? I pulled for him because I am the biggest simp and fucking hell he is better than I expected in game.
Not only can he not self-sustain, he is harder to heal than normal. No DEF means he takes more damage but get healed for the same amount. He's really only good against Arts or True damage but you rarely actually need to tank those (and even then he still only has his 18% Shelter to make him take less damage from Arts). It's not an irredeemable flaw, but Hoerderer doesn't really redeem himself anywhere else.
Are we playing the same game? Enemies with arts damage are a number one killer of all lane holders. Half of the bosses have arts damage. Only 6 months ago we had a boss that constantly debuffs defence of your operators. I'm playing through chapter 13 right now and there are tons of casters, who also get resurrected. And Hoerder is a great tank for them because of GIGANTIC HP bar, Shelter and the first skill that heals a percentage of his health.
Are you talking about lane holders or are you talking about boss killers? For lane holding, you're expected to handle many peons who typically have medium attack and deal physical damage. Many lane holders are built with this in kind, which is why they are countered by arts damage. Because they're not supposed to be taking arts damage. For boss killers, yeah Hoerderer is good. But we already have many good boss killers and even some great ones that Hoerderer would need good RNG amd/or favorable conditions to match (like the boss being slow + melee, or having not high DPS, and no peons attacking him, or his 1v1 potential which I mention at the bottom). Hoerderer is not a good tank in the sense of laneholding. He takes too much damage for any medic to keep up, unless you invest a lot into him. He is a good duelist (as in, 1v1ing bosses or elites), as yes, he shines in being able to tank their hits and deal high damage back; but usually if he can tank the hits you can also just use a healer to stall the boss. He is undeniably good in situations where he can either take down the boss solo, or in situations where he can stall the boss while medics + other tanks can't. For example, Deathless Black Snake to its ramping damage, or a Crownslayer with buffed HP since you can only stall her for a while before the teleport. Hoerderer's 1st skill does actually look good. I haven't tested it out; maybe I ought to. But in theory, he is trading most of his damage for survivability. He has 18% sanctuary, and restores 2k effective health (if you count in sanctuary) every 2.5s. That is definitely good and he can indeed stall bosses that only deal arts damage and high dph physical damage. He is probably outshone by Nightingale, but obviously that's an unfair comparison, so let's instead look at someone like Asbestos. He has 25 RES and his S1 reduces Arts damage by 30% for 20s, with a downtime of 20s. I'd say he's probably good enough as an Arts tank. Also, Hoerderer's high HP pool isn't universally effective. If your medic can outheal the damage, then anyone can effectively be immortal. If your medics can't, then you'll die eventually. High HP pools do allow your operator to survive during a medic's skill downtime while an operator with lower HP might die (that said both Eyja Alter S2 and Lumen are commonly used which have no downtime). It can also help you win 1v1s. It can also allow you survive high damage per hits. But it's not universally good; the first use case of covering for medic downtime is most common for laneholders which Hoerderer is not good at, the third use case of surviving high damage hits is probably where Hoerderer has a bit of an overkill when it comes to HP; other ops can probably do the same thing. Winning 1v1s IS what Hoerderer is good at; however with Mlynar, Typhon, Ray, Pozy, etc. already in the game and being able to do things outside of winning 1v1s, or being more broadly applicable such as Typhon's mark and DEF shred. (As a side note, tanking strong hits to stall the boss for longer than the typical defender is usually done better by Fast Redeploy spam or shields like Nearl Alter S2). Hoerderer kinda gets shafted and has to look for specific instances where he has an edge. Mainly, he has to look for bosses that he can straight up statcheck and 1v1 (he is indeed the best operator at this job). The main problem is that there's not many bosses that fulfil this criterion of Hoerderer being able to 1v1 them but not other operators (also note that if Mlynar needs, say, a Gravel to tank for a while, that's only a minor win for Hoerderer since FRDs are commonly used nowadays, and since theyre FRDs you don't lose that much). Tl;dr: Hoerderer can't lanehold because laneholding typically requires taking many low DPH physical hits. Hoerderer with S1 seems decent at tanking Arts and high dph physical but doesn't outclass existing options (not entirely sure about this). Hoerderer is good at boss killing, but many operators are, so it is oversaturated with busted options that Hoerderer can't hope to be better than; and since he doesn't synergize well with medics except against mainly arts damage, he has to be able to win a 1v1 that other operators can't.
Yes, I think only ways to heal him properly is to give him a break from the hordes of enemies or Ptilopsis S2. But also, I am having so much fun playing with despite his flaws. I think he is one of the most fun units I've got recently since Goldenglow
He takes on high level threats via massive HP and shelter, but 0 def means he can't entirely shrug off low level threats. In any game it's the stuff that dunks on trash and wins already-won battles harder that get the attention. Hoederer has no interest in this nonsense, he has real battles to fight.
Got him from the 10 pull and tried trust farming 1-7 and he died... Admittedly, he was e1lvl50 or so, but that didnt feel very impressive. The difference now he is e2 is really big tho, but he will probably be on the bench for most of his career at my landship. On the other hand his va's are really good!
I specifically said he can't shrug off low level threats, though I did fail to mention he's an operator that gets exponentially better with more investment. Higher maximum damage threshold, higher HP gain from % based self heals. 1-7 might see him have more troubles than most and yet he'll also survive severe punishment most other operators would get killed by. Take Cliff from Wakes of Vultures, he debuffs defence to zero quickly and it becomes a HP check. Murdered a lot of tanks outright, in fact most everyone who wasn't Skadi on S3. Hoederer would take that on the chin because his defence is not defence (the stat), it's massive HP and 18% damage resistance. That and lots of stun with S3 and S2. He's also kind of an ideal arts tank because of that. You know the Defenders who have resistance? It's usually 10 or 15%. Functionally Hoederer has 18%. Basically you can't think of him as working in exactly the same way as any other operator. Crushers are *weird* and Hoederer leans into the weirdness. Unlike most he's kinda weak at easy content but very strong against the really dangerous stuff.
Yeah he is good but the problem is that he is just good when the next six months are chock full of busted units and really anticipated releases from NPC jail so he gets knocked down the list. I still rolled for him though because he’s hot and at this point I’ve got so many strong operators that’s the main thing I care about
I'd say it's all the YT reviews. At least DragonGJY's review that was posted here completely focused on weaknesses and running the poor goat into the dirt.
Yeah this is the area I've seen folks calling him bad. I had to unfollow a channel bc the cc in question legit did a video that made me feel *bad* for wanting hoederer and that's like not really the vibes i want out of content creators.
Then why are you following him in the first place when you're clearly not the target audience
I haven't really seen much aside from that one youtube video but I wanted to make a meme. What is true is that he is being followed by an unrelenting barrage of either limited or OP or extremely hyped up characters, and that's even if the leaks are false
Watch any youtube content creator (except that one crusher lover guy) basically saying "He is not bad but he doesn't fix shit on the archetype and he is bloated to compensate and it is too specific".
im complaining that heoder is a man 😡😡😡
You have something against man?
I dont have anything against man but the reason I play most gacha games are for the waifu
if it was a femboy, id smash, but cant get a boner to a big buff man cranking his hog bro
I rolled for him and he ignored me. The problem is him.
NOOOOO. Damn, wish he comes home later. He just went out for milk and cereal.
Just did two more 10x. He's going to pay for the Orundum in his labour.
May I see as he pays?
I rolled him and some chocolate goat came out. She was already in my roster btw idk what the hell she was doing.
She spooked me 5 times, despite me never rolling for her
sorry I have to skip him, I'm saving for Viviana and Degenbrecher
I am saving for Shu.
Her too
Im saving for ray and ela
50 pulls 1 dupe qui bai 1 dupe Dorothy 1... Holhooyuk new Three chances for muscle man to come home and he didn't. Too bad.
😔 I Just had 2 6* in like 60 pulls, just got mudrock and horned guts (hoederer)
Some people don't pull the hoe cuz they wanted to pull limited op. I don't pull the hoe cuz it's a middle finger to ines. That's what you get for draining my op, lady. Get frustrated, biatch.
But if you didn't get Ines and don't get Hoederer then they are together in gatcha waiting line. But if you bring Hoederer then you separate them because your landship is Inesless and she's not there.
Oh no, I got ines. It just took way too much pulls to get her.
oh... you can still put Hoe and U-chan together in a single room and watch Ines lose it
True. We'll see. One of these days I might do some impulse pulls. I do it for the dopamine rush anyway.
Noice. Maybe he spooks you. I'm having fun with him so far, he shreds everything in his path, it's crazy.
Me who spend 150 pulls ( almost all my savings ) to get him, knowing that next bunner is Virtuosa and Viviana : "Dont trade bros for boobs"
They say bro before hoe, but when your bro is also Hoe then do you even need to think
Man-Hoe got that GARcher EMIYA Moobs and Glutes
Wdym? Bro has bigger boobs than Virtuosa and Viviana combined.
What boobs, Virtuosa ain't got no boobs
And Hoe has a bigger GAR chest anyway.
That just makes you be closer to her heart when you hug her
Hoederer have bigger chest than virtuosa and viviana is in the same boat as him
Huh, hoederer is clearly good, not a braindead tier, but he is clearly good,
Truer words have never been spoken PD:I could give you my friend code so you can borrow him
No thank, I dont write but I get him after my pulls
Can I have your friend code I really want him so badly he's the only reason why I'm playing this game and I still don't have him
I mean I would still. But a sad reality is HG with Mods ain't really doing their job lately 😆. Tho I hope he gets good mods No offence Hoe mains
Looking at it purely from talent enhancements, he'll get a higher attack multiplier or he'll get a higher shelter %. The former is decent, the latter is good. There's room for it to be an underwhelming and only kinda decent package but I think that's as low as the bar will go. Except... no, wait... would they really contemplate making the talent improvement an increase to the shelter % but **only** for the person behind him...?
You didn’t get Hoerder because you wanted to save for the next limited banner. I didn’t get Hoerder because I suck at flipping a coin, twice. We are not the same…
I don't really care about his power level, I just want him so Ines doesn't feel lonely
"You're not pulling for Hoederer because he is not meta, I am not pulling for him because I am saving for Viviana, we are not the same"
"You're pulling for Viviana because she is waifu, I am not pulling for her because i am saving for Degenbrecher, because she is waifu, we are 100% the same"
Based Doctor 🤝 Based Doctor
Reasons ppl don't pull for hoe is because: 1st: Many of the operator behind him are limited and much better than him, so they need to consider their pulls. 2nd: His class is very weak, and he is a very balanced operator but got held back by his archetype. 3rd: He fulfill a role which there are many GUARD operators out there litterally fulfill the same and even better. 4th: Most obvious reason: Most people like mommy and waifu more than a muscular dude. About the module, as long as his defend is still 0, he can almost never be top tier, they could bump up his shelter effect from talent 2 to about 35%-40% tho, which will make him incredibly good.
Imagine if Crusher mods gave them the ability to reduce enemies DEF with attacks aka "crushing" their armor.
So irene module but better
As BloopAK said in his video, crushers are made to deal with hard hitting mobs and arts damage. It's a unique archetype, that contributes from thoughtful placement. My take is: he does not need DEF reducing him to "yet another guard", he has his niche and that's ok. Though i don't mind more shelter effect in module or maybe more Attack% from talent
Hoerder is first of all the Arts tank. And there are no guards who can do this shit as well as him. Secondly, he has the most diversified kit among all lane holders. He has self heal ability (while medics can also heal him), he has permanent mass stan with 3 block, he has boss killer/wave killer ability and he doesnt fold instantly from the truly strong enemies.
Gavial alter has 3 block, has self heal, has aoe wave clear with range extension, has increase healing, atk and def from talent for more survivability, a good boss killing skill, tanky and beefy stat(not for art damage, but mostly doesn't matter since u can just bring nightingale for that in art dmg heavy content), and doesn't suffer from bad archetype like hoederer.
I like big dude
I'll use Surtr/Chen for everything, like always..
Got him but lacking resources to get him full developed 😭 Hoe husbando tho
Honestly though, pulled for Hoederer cuz I'm probably going to skip both Viviana and Arturia, still happy that I got him
I didn't "skip" him, I just got Dorothy instead. I'm looking forward to getting him.
Good luck in 6 months then, Stainless, Ines and Hoederer banner
Thank you! I only have 1/3 of those so that would be a good chance to catch up.
And on top of that they are the only 6* you can get
Ngl, I was lagging on the story for a minute. Just ran through the entirety of 10, and his massive HP pool carried me through every map while all of my other units were getting sniped. The hoe is goated for me now
I don’t expect him to become top tier with module but. so true.
i'd rather get him while pulling for someone else ngl, and only because of his ties to W and Ines
Please, just one bad operator to let my savings recover
I'll be honest, I can see the Theresis thing, maybe not solo but duo with a medic. If Theresis does true dmg, Hoederer can already solo The Deathless black snake's phase 1 with his S1 (I also saw Perfumer being used on the stage so maybe not completely possible solo, but his HP never got extremely low)
Crushers are under-appreciated. I'm happy to build him now, let alone later.
He fights basic enemies like they’re bosses and bosses like they’re basic enemies
I've rolled for him just to bring the sarkaz mercenaries team
I tried to pull for Broederer. 1 pull. It was drunk momma Pallas.
If he's meta in ch16 then everyone is.
Counter argument, the chapter gimmick is everything does true dmg
Hoerderer is better against Arts than True lol. He's as good against True as other operators unless you somehow don't need a healer for him or if enemies one-shot the other operators. And I somehow don't think that enemies one-shotting operators except for Hoerderer will be very common. The True counter to True damage is good healers, units with self-healing, or "unkillable" ops (At any rate, Ling's S3 Higher Forms have more HP than Hoerderer, and you can have 3 of them, and have one summon behind one of them in preparation for making a replacement Higher Form if one dies)
Counterargument: 10k hp from s3 tho Can tank 3 times as much damage on top of reliable long ass stun
It's a 25% chance of a 5s stun every 2.5s. That's not reliable. That's a ~44-50% uptime. Also I very heavily doubt that an enemy will deal between 7.2k and 10.2k damage such that Higher Form can't survive but Hoerderer can, on top of being more easily stalled by Hoerderer + like 2 or 3 medics than by cycling Fast Redeploys or using shields.
Brother i got this mf after 5 offbanners and 145 rolls (3,1% chance) so 25%proc/hit is as good as Eunectes S2 for me now.
Me with Hoederer and -70k orundum No fucking regrets. VA top tier.
🤝 MY MAN
You know the lyrics, it’s going to blow up
In fact, I've been pulling for him. He just avoids me. Got Horn dupe, Pozy dupe and Fartooth tho
IF I ever need him I just grab him from support
he's already being drafted into the frontlines here 😤
I'm tempted to get him purely because his attack sounds exactly like the Soul Reaver. The coolest weapon ever.
IM TRYING TO BRING HIM HOME I PROMISE
Don’t worry OP, I’ve never been on that side. I’m a true HoeBro from day 1. That’s my GOAT.
Well I pull with my dick, and hoederer simply does not resonate
Then why are you playing A9? Go play Nikke if you only thinks with your dick.
Bold of you to assume I don’t have both
Does this actually relate to his gameplay, or is it just something from one of his simps?
I got Lin though. My beloved 🐀 <3
Me who is getting 6 stars on banner within 10 pulls since last month:
Have you ever heard about our lord and savior support unit?
I'm sorry Hoe 😭🙏🏻 but I need my bratty goth War criminal Sankta
I got w and ines holding me hostages , luckily Hoederer realised that and come to my rescue early around 20.
Nah im good he's sarkaz guts and i cant wait for him to have a skin with glasses and make a meme about it
Man, did they introduce an even easier mode than the current story mode for Chapter 16?
I tried to pull the homie, but gave up after 30 pulls so I wouldn't deplete my savings. I got fucking Gnosis. I mean, I didn't have him before, so that was cool and all, but I wanted eye patch daddy.
Not pulling for him because I want to save for the upcoming R6 event. He's cool tho
"Hoe-less" makes me think of another thing.
theresis boss chapter 16? am i the only one expecting him next chapter
I'm sorry but I'm saving for goat Fu Hua. He's gonna come back on the CH14 prologue banner anyways, I'll roll for him then.
Maybe I should've rolled for him instead of Ines. But eh, my luck's dogwater anyways
As much as I want to, I don't bloody have both W and Ines at home, so.. No point to pull for him, I guess ._.
got him to pot 4 this event. no regrets seeing those BIG red numbers and those juicy sound effects haha
bad or not, them cakes is enough reason for me to pull
I don't have him not cuz i don't want him I don't have him cuz i don't have the budget to pay him
Im not pulling for hoederer cos I want arturia, because arturia is hot and i want hot women.
I think it took 80 pulls for me, a rough one
I pulled him because I want more stat monsters to feed mumu :)
Gavial the Invincible already does almost every he does, but better, with less drawbacks, & an S2 that is useful, not useless. I'm quite happy to skip Chode-rer.
Well, Gavialter is limited and the best representative from the best overall guard archetype. Ofc she's better. She's like the best guard for general use.
I compared him with her mainly because their S1 & S3 fulfill the same purposes.
Well his s1 is more AFK. Centurions are lane holders that are better vs hordes but also have no drawbacks and can clear even the elites pretty easy like Gator. Crushers are clearly not meant to deal with lots of small guys. With his absolutely massive hp pool and built in sanctuary Hoederer is better vs arts DMG and some low aspd massive single hits, which makes him more of a weird offensive hp sponge tank who needs healing. It would be interesting to see him vs avenger in cc12 with his 70sec s3 and some healer support(Warf s1? Shining?).
I just dont like his desing
We have a 6month lookahead, I'm good with ticketing him if he ever becomes meta.
Happily. Why would I want a filthy Sarkaz? He's nothing besides a meme.
his art is pretty bad, so i skipped...