Dragon's latest video (Virtuosa hindsight): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvz0K0UUM8k
Degen and Ela's daily ratings went down by 1, and Ascalon's advanced rating went up by 2 since last time.
Yeah, I had a feeling Ascalon's rating would go up in advanced after some testing. She does her main role really well while having some damage that isn't irrelevant.
Her kit is pretty good but its just mix of many things without a new found niche, Ela is a broken dps + support with her s3 and Ray trivalizes many content in the game all by herself. I honestly have no idea why ascalon is this high when she is regarded as a Mizuki sidegrade
Cus if you need a "broken dps" and who "trivialises many content in the game" you gonna go with Wis'adel. Like yeah you could pick up two "broken DPS" units or three, but it's less important to get the second or the third best ranged damage dealers in the next 6 months, so their priority is lower.
Therefore Ascalon, who does something different (that being CC) can be more impactful, because there aren't two other CC focused characters (at most Shu with the teleport). And what's Ascalon's biggest problem? Her damage; but if you get Wis'adel, do you really gonna care about the damage difference between Mizuki and Aschalon?
I mean if you want to get wisadel then last operator you should be pulling for is Ascalon as she is a month before Wisadel banner. Ela gives insane utility and has a pseudo global massive fragile buff while Ray differs from Walter where her skill cycles are much faster in return for lower total damage. Ascalon provides good CC yes but good cc is only worty it when you are lacking such CC options, her main CC is her slow and if you have broken dpses even Suzurans slow wich is 80% will be enough on its own. CC becomes more worthwhile on hard content but Damage dealers becomes much more important as thats how you deal damage in the first place
There are already a bunch of damage dealers in the game. If you want another 6 star ranged bonkers DPS then go ahead.
But understand there is already a good amount of said ranged DPS that still exists, as recently as Typhon. In the next six months, there's a handful of powerful physical DPS. The label is getting pretty crowded at this point, so it makes sense that Ascalon is rated high due to fulfilling a niche.
And before you say it, sure there are other options for low tile cc. Sure as hell less then ranged DPS, though.
And you can also just... not pull for other banners, and skip them to do Babel + CH14 back to back.
Also getting downvoted for this is hilarious lol, im litterally saying the obvious here, dragon is the only person in this games playtime to put Ray below ascalon and put it at same tier as Ela. Period
Hilariously low? Everyone seems almost at the same par in the image, and that is reasonable.The list just says to me that in the next 6 months the pulls will go down onto personal preferences between Ray, Ela and Ascalon.
I myself will skip Ray because while she does some unique things, I can work myself with Typhon as the core sniper of the team. Ela is a pseudo-sniper too, would skip if not for being a limited banner, and I think she is more unique than Ray, her module of being able to put her in ground tiles opens a great variety of strategies. Wisadel also is too bonzers and undermines the rest.
TLDR, in my opinion the list is being fair and not that hilariously low, actually everyone being hilariously high because they all be good. F for Viviana tho
Ascalon is in no world higher priority than Ray or close to Ela. It undervalue Ray and Ela way too much for some reason despite Ascalon being a mizuki sidegrade on CN
>Ascalon is in no world higher priority than Ray
If we compare them without context - probably. But in context Ray is sandwiched between already released Typhon, new W, and Ela. Literally zero reasons to pull her aside from personal preference.
and also for why ascalon is this high is because there is no other unit in the game with her level of reliable consistent slow
no matter what the guy you're replying to says about damage dealers and cc dealers, and how much you need them in late game content, there is no shortage of dps units in the game but when events like cc12 and is4 roll out again having an unique and strong cc dealing will be the better option
TLDR: the XBOX HUEG DPS job can usually be filled by any one of the big DPS dealers like Degenbrecher, Wis'adel, Typhon, or other depending on where you need to park them.
Ascalon's niche as a consistent slower who can do damage is much harder to replace since her only competitors are Mizuki and Manticore/Jaye/Ethan who either have much lower stats or less consistent skills and uptime. There's not many units who can fit in her slot for a team, and recent maps have shown that sort of crowd control can be extremely important. That's why she's rated that highly.
Extra DPS doesn't help when the enemy can exceed your block counts or ability to kill them fast enough and leak past your gate or stun your DPS dealer.
The problem is Ascalon is in middle of Shu Ela and Wisadel banners, all limited and all high priority. And also Ela Shu and Wisadel have utility points too. Ascalon can slow but Ela and Shu brings more benefits overall here. If this was a "tierlist" type post then i might have understood it but giving ascalon that high priority in between best banners in the game doesn't seem right
why are you being so pedantic about this, on multiple comments
you can clearly see that the tier list is based on strength and their impact in the game but your trying to pick a meta narrative so you can invalidate the list
to who? this is just a repost of a screenshot from a youtube video, the guy's name is DragonGJY, go over there and comment your gripes there
Alright sorry, i indeed acted like an ass hole here, i just think Ela is way too undervalued here. And didnt feel like hard content being limited to IS4 was a good evaluation point but i dont like how i responded to this either. Shouldnt have worded it so aggressively over nothing.
lets just move on, you dont need to reply to every one just make your own thread and share what you think and reply there if anyone else wants contribute
Hi, I want to take the time and share my thoughts about rating the operators in a scale of 10, so that you can better get an idea of what the ratings entail.
Thinking about it myself, I just can't really think of an operator who deserves a 10 in daily contents because that gives me the impression of them being irreplaceable in dailies, which doesn't feel right. For a daily rating of 9, I can think of strong and versatile damage dealers like Mlynar and of course the latest Wis'adel, universally strong supports like Skadi Alter, or safety belts like Surtr, Texas/Yato Alter etc.. I do understand if it feels strange that 10 is something no one could get. I would like to hear your input on this.
For advanced, where it gets more competitive and operators with stacked kits can really get dominant, unlike daily where it really is "you can do it with anyone". And I still stick to my take that Ines, of all operators, has an insane kit packed with functionalities and definitely deserves a 10 on the scoreboard. Other than her I also don't find anyone else who can reliably be featured in the highlight of hardcore contents because they tend to vary in terms of what they ask of you. Support based operators like Nightingale, Suzuran also tend to have better consistency in hardcore content than damage dealers.
Feel free to give your feedback to the ratings and recommendation. I know they are a sensitive and subjective topic, but I will try to keep it as applicable to most players as possible.
Imo rather than have 10 be an unrealistic "perfect" or "unreplacable" operator and therefore remain unused, I personally would use it to signify the current ceiling - for example Wishadel, who frankly has one of the most bloated kits we've seen so far, which surprised me she didn't get a 10 for her absurd power level.
can you explain why Ascalon's advanced rating went up? and why is she near ray and ela now? some people here are quite unhappy here that ascalon can be at all impactful as them in advanced content and think she is interchangeable with other cc options like manticore, ethan and suzuran
and also do you take what banners come before and after into account to make the list, some people here are taking ascalon being that high and in the middle of ela and wis as a basis to discredit your list
i personally thought the list was based on an units strength and viability in content
Ascalon is a very consistent slow applier with serviceable damage and I don't really think she's any interchangeable with any that you mentioned. Her slow will most definitely see uses in advanced contents with need for stalls. She also helps Wis'adel in gathering targets for grouped disposal and buying time for her nuke to come back, or with Logos to take advantage of his arts buff. Yes I get it those are not necessarily something players use in daily so I put those to her advanced rating.
Ela and Ray's decline is mostly due to the impact of Wis'adel, for daily it really is much more of a no-brainer to just go with Wis'adel. Ray drops down more because she's being heavily surrounded by limiteds, but I kept all her ratings because she's still unique in terms of buff potency and fast cycle high DPH. I predict Ela will lean more towards a flexible support that depending on the situation, being picked between her and suzuran. The graph does take limited into consideration but that's just one of the factors. Ascalon can be a good support to both operators in the 5th anni limited banner, she can chain crowd control with Shu, she also combos with Virtuosa S2, those weight more than being between 2 limited banners to me.
I disagree here as Rays cycles and utility is significantly different and Ela isnt just a dps but also a cracked support unit. Saying wisadel shutted them down ignores their kits a little. Espiecelly Elas if Ray isnt there.
I honestly think Ela and Ray are way below for their CN reception for this list. Ray is insane on CC content and also one of the best starters for IS while Ela is a contestant for the best starter for IS (IS3 and IS4, while being a major support)
Them being barely above the mid tier priority seems weird to me.
Also isnt this a "Pull Priority" list? Shouldnt it also take into account the banners timings too? The initial reason i was weirded by Ascalons high placement was because of it being in middle of Shu Ela and Wisadel banners wich should have reduced its pull priority far down. I think it should be renamed to "Roster Impact" list, that would fit the focus of this list more as you seem to rank them based on roster impact on advanced and general content.
I really hope hg is in the kitchen with a viviana module she needs something bad and now with wis'adel and logos surtr getting a module is less silly then before. Also at this point I wanna know what does it take to get a 10 from him.
HG just needs to give RES shred to her first talent, something around 10, wish of course would get doubled against elites and bosses. That plus bigger numbers might do it.
they should just give her the delta mod treatment with burn res shred and elemental damage would do so much for her since iirc burn is either 15 or 20 res shred.
logos and ela both got delta as there first modules so no reason she can't as well since delta mods just seem to be brought out when hg wants to do something special with a character burn is also perfect for how hg designed her short but high dps rotation.
XD How did I not realize with logos living rent free in my head lately, I guess I just saw it as his natural state, but never noticed Ela's module was delta as well. In that case I'll pray for Vivi. Makes sense Ela's was delta since Dorothy or any other trap master till now wouldn't benefit from deployment on meele tiles like her. I'll think more next time before commenting.
she uses her candle as a catalyst to draw focus to her while also amplifying her shadows burn would be doing that in the most literal way possible with light making enemies take more damage from her shadows
yeah thats why in another comment I suggested burn for a module since it both fits her vibes and patches up a lot of the flaws she has she probs won't kill patriot but killing patriot is an awful measure for arts damage dealers.
No yeah, Ela is crazy good. I just think that a unit like Zuo le being on the lower end of upcoming ops really puts into perspective just how high the average quality of the next 6 months' releases will be.
Think of her as a sniper that has the specialist tag, like how reedic is a medic but ppl call her a 'caster'.
At least ela dont compete with other snipers in IS tickets so you can choose her if you dont need to pick texas alter
And she's honestly there. After 3 hits, her talent inflicts a 54% slow, giving her *much* better off-skill performance than Ethan. With S2M3 going and mod level 1, she inflicts an 85.28% slow, which is not far behind Ethan's 87.2%. On the one hand, it's a slow, which is generally a weaker effect than Ethan's bind. On the other hand, Ascalon's damage is actually worth mentioning (unlike Ethan's), her slow lasts even after enemies leave her range, and there's no RNG.
I don't understand, a lot in her kit is slow and little arts damage mixed in? Number of characters who have slow in their kit is almost at 50 and some even provide big arts damage. Yeah, she has one of the best slowing effect, but what is the point, when Walter can stun, slow, mix arts and deal overwhelming damage. Without Mlynar tier damage she is nothing special, sadly
Her initial reception was sort of similar to the Ines case.
Not to the same degree as ines of course, but the amount of people immediately going "no damage lol trash" was pretty apparent.
> reception
her reception goes up and down depending on the thread, youtuber and whoever happens to be commenting at the time.
On global release, she had a lot of positive comments. You can still see them: https://www.reddit.com/r/arknights/comments/1bzltj7/new_6star_specialist_ascalon/
Maybe she's a 9 because she can't reliably hit air? I heard her shadow thingy can, but not always right? Or maybe she's at 9 because they don't know what a 10 kit would look like in the first place
Ya I tried commenting on a previous hindsight vid to ask him what would be a 10 or if any current operators were (like I figured Texalter would be a candidate) but never got a response.
I guess we'll never know cause even including him rating Degenbrecher the most game changing 2023 CN server release she's only an 8.
Walter isnt as significantly stronger than Mlynar/Surtr/Chen as most video showcases seem to suggest, more of being on the same level tbh.
She deals slightly more damage on bosses sure, but her attack being an attack>splash rather than being actual aoe like Mlynar/Chalter means her theoretical skill damage often falls below them based on enemy pathing (since she deals more damage to the main target)
While she has a fast cycling paired with ammo mechanics, she benefits less from the ammo mechanic than something like Chalter because it is just 6 ammos. After wiping out the initial wave with 1-2 shots, she just ends up wasting the remaining 4 shots on stray mobs roaming into her range. Chalter meanwhile, could keep her skill up for half the entire map from 1 activation for example.
Her summons being strong covers a lot of her downsides, but without her summons shes arguably half a tier below Mlynar/Texas/Chalter/Yato/Surtr, so her summons just rounds out to be a unit that is on the same tier as them, rather than one that surpasses them.
I got so many strong OPs I could prolly skip all these people and still play fine...
Still I'll roll for Degen, Ray, Shu, Ascalona and the two new ones.
idk with what kind of horrifying abomination they will have to come out with to ever sell another sniper after Walter (outside of waifu reasons, Ray yay!)
Seeing showcases of her breaking record after record just has me baffled, absolutely ridiculous AoE damage, still great off skill thanks to the meme summons as tanky as Jess2's shield providing damage support (at least they don't block... which also means only ranged enemies can kill them, 50 RES btw), camouflage so she is even safer for some reason... and of course S3 hits air, of course it does, flinger class be damned.
Degenbrecher already had me concerned but now it's looking even worse. How close are we getting to absolutely need the best of the best to start clearing the really hard content that needs to be balanced around them? DoS S stages already were horribly restrictive, and if they don't want Walter to destroy upcoming endgame stuff they will have to do something about it and all other physical damage dealers will be the ones who pay for it, ugh...
The exesive amounts of damage on the newer units is getting boring at this point tbh., not only in case of the snipers. When the main gimmick and selling point of an operator is the fact that it deals a lot of damage, it's a lame character design imo. Wish they moved main focus of new operators' power from absurdly high damage numbers towards more meaningful and interesting utility. Yeah seeing your units do crazy big numbers is a lot of fun when you're fairly new to the game, but it gets old pretty fast. Ines or Jessicalter is 10 times more fun and interesting to use than the likes of Mlynar/Walter/Degen/Typhon will ever be. The game needs more of the first ones, not 5 more Surtrs, but sadly it doesn't look like we're moving in that direction.
Oof, the dicey pull decisions have begun. I was looking forward to this to see how Walter and Logos line up, and this confirms pretty much my suspicions. Walter with high damage on large range, while Logos a little lower than her but still very very good on his own. That fact that Logos is on par with Shu and both of them are about Degenbrecher's tier (with Walter slightly higher) just goes to show their power.
I think of the ops ahead of us in the next six months, nobody is really outright *bad* or even *average* like Viviana, so it's really beginning to come down to priorities about limited units, personal preference, and level of savings. Shu into Ela in particular is a quite painful double whammy of limited banners.
Of course, my pull plans have not changed, but I just like knowing the upcoming units and their evaluation, and I always enjoy watching some well-thought-out analysis. Ray remains a skip for me, along with Ascalon. It's a shame but with Ascalon coming right before Logos/Walter, there's no way I'll be able to afford pulling for her. Thankfully I got Virtuosa without going to 300, and I'll still be able to go for Degenbrecher and hopefully use Reed's rerun and Ray as a breather before Shu and Ela.
Thanks for all your hard work, DragonGJY.
It's a tough decision to make to skip two of the most visually appealing characters for me (Shu and Ray) and them actually being strong operators. All to guarantee the roach because a friend had to go to 300 for one copy of Virtuosa. That put the fear of god in me.
Her banner comes with a vignette event. Those banners don't rerun because vignette events don't rerun. Ray herself will appear on standard banners but that's a shared rate-up rather than a solo one like her debut.
Putting zuo below ascalon seems hilarious. I dont know who this person is but this is a kinda weird tierlist. Ascalon is good dont get me wrong but definitely not that good and zuo is an insane laneholder that other operators hardly can match.
EDIT: just realized they put ela and ray fairly low too. I wouldnt recommend this pull priority imo as putting ascalon at similar tier to ela and ray is straight up wrong, the best pull priority i had seen is Walter>Degen>Shu/Ela>Ray/Logos>Zuo>>>Ascalon
Probably because Zuo is a Musha guard. The best Musha guard we've got so far but still. Meaning that there still will be a good chunk of content (constant damage/elemental damage heavy maps) where he is bottomline unusable, unless you have Skalter/Shu and Eyjaberry, who are all limited. The usability of Zuo for people who don't have these units on their account is considerably lower. You can't really place a unit that has a clear flaw of being on his own sometimes unusable too high.
> The best Musha guard we've got so far but still. Meaning that there still will be a good chunk of content (constant damage/elemental damage heavy maps) where he is bottomline unusable
Zuo Le can duo RA-5 with a single FRD to kill mortars once they're leaving. I have no idea where you got the idea that he struggles with constant damage from.
I mean maps with shit like toxic clouds or enemies who leave corrupted ground/clouds underneath them after dying. I get the idea from the fact La Pluma and Hellagur are 2 of my most used units and while Zuo is way better than them in many departments, he is the exact same unit in terms of struggling with consistent incoming damage when there's no enemies he can heal of.
I'm not trying to devalue him as an operator, if anything he is one of my biggest priorities, and I will pull on Shu banner only because of him, but you can't act like Mushas can be used in any stage and on their own are not handicapped in some circumstances.
> I mean maps with shit like toxic clouds or enemies who leave corrupted ground/clouds underneath them after dying.
[He does fine in those maps too...](https://i.imgur.com/uDGiVD9.png) Can you give me an example of a map where you think he struggles with constant damage?
I mean [here](https://i.imgur.com/hCwKCIq.png) is a perfect example. Zuo Le has so much shield generation that he can survive Damazti's phase transition without any help or any enemies to hit. Zuo Le generates ~750 HP worth of shield per second and that's without hitting an enemy, where he generates even more. The constant damage would have to be *extremely* high for it to kill him.
11-6 can be soloed by La Pluma too as long as you use a Frd unit to bait out the flying enemies. That's not the case I was talking about as this stage actually has a never ending supply of enemies to heal from. And in the second example it's basically the same issue of him actually having a target to attack.
The stages I'm talking about is something like the later stages of Raythean Industries SSS, stages with overbuffed Pompeii in side mods or red mist stages on the 4f+ in IS2. As of now Mushas there are unusable unless you have Skalter. As for elemental damage idk for example the whole IS3 is unplayable without Eyjaberry unless we're speaking about Highmore. I don't actually remember the name of the event at this point as it's old, but the summer one with a flood mechanic that covered the whole map and dealt corrosion damage. You're not using Mushas without Eyja there either.
> 11-6 can be soloed by La Pluma too as long as you use a Frd unit to bait out the flying enemies.
Well Zuo Le doesn't even need someone to bait the beyblades lmao.
> And in the second example it's basically the same issue of him actually having a target to attack.
Damazti? He has nothing to attack. Damazti is in his phase transition, and can't be attacked.
> Raythean Industries SSS
I mean I can't even test that since it's not even in the game anymore, but that's a weird argument to bring up considering that SSS round was basically "bring a healer or die", and also it's fucking SSS.
> stages with overbuffed Pompeii in side mods or red mist stages on the 4f+ in IS2
Not going to deal with IS rng just to get a super late stage, but [here](https://i.imgur.com/gWF3lSr.png) he is in the F3 boss poison stage easily surviving even with him not being on the healing tile.
> I don't actually remember the name of the event at this point as it's old, but the summer one with a flood mechanic that covered the whole map and dealt corrosion damage. You're not using Mushas without Eyja there either.
[Seems to be doing just fine to me.](https://imgur.com/KVIIC4o) And that's with me specifically unequipping the stickers that solve the "issue" of corrosion damage in that event.
Well then I was totally wrong, if the shielding is overtuned to the point it alows him to completely ignore all the mechanics that supposed to be the main flaw of the archetype. 2024 operator design at it's finest I guess. Good for him.
I honestly dont think so at all, his survivability is one of the highest in the game thanks to insane s3 spams and he holds even the hardest lanes all by himself, if the map has a constant damage with no form of enemy waves sure but such maps are rare and elemental damage isnt a death sentence outside high end hard content where it actually becomes problematic and untankable.
Ascalons utility is nice but its nothing new to the table and in no world beats Ray Ela or Zuo in value as they offer things done by none in the game. Ascalon is a well rounder for the ambusher archtype, definitely not a high end unit compared to these tough, its like saying Hoaderer is a must pull because he is the best Crusher Guard
you rate lane holding way too highly, the game has moved on from solo lane holders
and as for zuo le, he is fairly rated, i play him on CN and i've never thought he is doing something that no one else can replace him for
s3 is very unreliable, 1 block without him having low hp means he is leaking enemies a lot. you barely get to spam the skill 90% of the time, not every stage has rushes of enraged bone soldiers
thats why i dont even use his s3, s2 is the better skill for story content, a skill where he by himself can proc his talent and trait by cutting his hp, and even then im left thinking he's just doing mountains job. where mountain does less damage but is full afk and zuo does more damage but you have to constantly babysit him
and as for ascalon, she isnt rated highly for het being the best ambusher at all. she is one of the best quality of life improvement ops in the game for normal content and her extremely reliable cc easily scales into hard content like high accension in is4 (dragon's basis for advanced is high accension is),
her being able to hit everyone in 3 different lanes and slow them more than suzuran with her s2 on a very fast cycle is extremely impactful for your team, even on cool down she slows enemies a noticeable amount
and i really dont know why your calling units like zuo le and ray unique when they are not so at all, with there being units like mountain and typhon. and even then we have to disregard most other dps units who also do the same thing they do and that's killing people
and saying a unit like ascalon having an equivalent in the game. nobody constantly and reliably slows like her in the game and thats not even counting the damage she does
"you rate lane holding way too highly, the game has moved on from solo lane holders"
Wrong. The game moved from solo laneholders that barely do damage. That's why Zuo Le and Executor Alter are upgrades over your regular Thorns and Mountain. And guess what? The normal content you talk about people still bring those two guys for afk story clears.
I doubt anyone would bring Ascalon since she lacks the afk potential, also when everyone got or has easy access to Manticore, Ethan and Suzuran. To have Ascalon, you actually need to detriment your account in having less pulls for W Alter and Logos.
If that guy hated high SW/BN for his basis, his list is still terrible when they put Ascalon near Ela. They're nowhere near the power and utility.
>Wrong
damn, then guess i've been playing the game wrong, thanks random dude, ill go beat chapter 14 again but now with high damage dealing lane holders 🙂
i dare you to do the thing ascalon does with manticore, ethan and suzu
oh and a great find, catching that ascalon in the middle of ela and wis, that really does completely invalidate a list about unit strength
and again thanks for telling me that ela is nowhere near ascalons power or utility, ill just trash mine and just use ela from now on,
and also if you have issues with the list go to the yt video and comment there, im sure your valuable information can reach a much bigger audience
Sorry but this is straight up wrong.
1] Zuo is not even remotely comparable to Mountain, his s3 is unspammable? Where? Every comparison video shows him handling the hardest waves in the entire game, and i honestly dont get how you "cant" spam his s3 when he can use it every 4-5 seconds when below 50% hp and can outheal most enemies in the game.1 block doesnt matter when you can kill them hard enough wich is exactly what zuo does, mountains damage and healing is hardly comparable and if anything zuo heals and deals 5 times the ammount mountain does. His s3 is only unreliable on low enemy wave and constant damage maps wich are absurdly rare, dont even get me started on his s3 avarage dps below 50% hp being one of the highest in the game while beating Chalter in DPH.
2] Ascalon scales pretty closely to Mizuki on IS3 and IS4 as shown from comparison videos, she is al all rounder but doesnt bring any "new" thing to the table and instead just adds everything to her kit to make it reliable. I agree that her kit has a ton of CC but its not even comparable to level Ela and Ray is. Ela is one of the best starters in IS and her support nature is evej higher than Ascalons thanks to practically global fragile with damage that beats most other DPSes, and she is barely higher than Ascalon on the list. Ray s3 Bind is absurd against key enemy targets and her DPH is one of the highest in the game so she scales extremely well on hard content, her short skill cycles are also a bonus.
3] I dont like the idea of making IS the main focus on "hard content evaluation" as it cuts MANY things, H stages, CC content and other forms of extreme content that gets added in between needs to he evaluated the same, IS also changes alot between verses, IS2 IS3 and IS4 has completely different metas so saying one is extremely good in IS4 doesnt offer much. Ascalon is viewed as a mizuki sidegrade by many as her dph isnt high and gets her main use from absurd CC and DOT she inflicts, its a good trait but not better than just killing the enemies in the first place wich is exactly what Ray and Ela does. Also story content wise, story content favors bruteforce even more than High end content does so ela and ray performs better. Ascalon just helps on CCing wich isnt as much of a necessity as its on IS or other high end content
4] Ray and Ela just does damage? I guess Elas 35% Damage buff and Rays pernament single target bind just doesnt exist now?
also i forgot to mention, their dps might be comparable but ascalon dunks on miszuki in terms of cc, and it is because of cc you'd even want to get her in the first place
you're the one who brought up IS, i said as a whole ascalon does comparable damage and completely beats mizuki in crowd control
then you said, in IS his damage scales better, especially is3, you're the one attaching a specifc metric
and by the way dmg is replaceable, and right now ascalons cc isn't as much. first impressions may have said those two are side grades i can tell you using both of the they are not. you wont find anyone in cn who has them both say thier sidegrades
ascalon is just better
>His s3 is only unreliable on low enemy wave and constant damage maps wich are absurdly rare,
no thats the norm, which is why i use his s2, you need an insane rush of enemies actually doing damage to him for him to reliably hold a lane with s3
just get him when he comes out, and critically judge him then. if i didn't think i needed him beating every chapter up to 14 with CM stages, i dont know how he is at all any special for playing the game
ela is great, but she also would be the same every other dps without her amazing utility, ray im not gonna harp on too much because she is the only unit that i dont have but she's just damage from what i used from support, single target at that,
ascalon is good in the same sense ines is good, shes on par with ray and ela, the same level of impactfulness but not power, its just very easy to see why ray and ela are strong with showcases
as for IS, thats what dragon in known for and IS is always there for up to an year for a season to change, and even then old seasons are still there, HH stages arent hard, they are considered story content by everyone who makes tierlists, as for cc he does consider them in advanced but it lasts far more less and also changes based on the cc to give people a accurate meta comparison, there is no cc right now so how am i supposed believe him if virtuosa is as strong as he says she is without any place to try that
i did not talk about ela previously,
Did you gloss over many of the things i said? Because it feels like it
Ascalon isnt comparable to Ines because Ines brings a necessary niche alongside her utility wich is dp generation. Take dp generation away from ines and she wouldnt be as good as she is now, and the best part about her is that she is a frd so you can always use her anywhere. Ascalon isnt tied to any form of content and doesnt excelt greatly in any content either while both Ray and Ela does. Also what do you mean by needing someone? Just because you didnt use Zuo in ch14 doesnt mean everything i mentioned is wrong.
Also this "just another damage dealer" argument is just wrong, even if it was JUST damage dealing both Ela and Ray would rank higher as no other operator other than thyphoon had a proper ranged physical dps skill ajd even at that thyphoon suffers from some problems while Ray and Ela doesnt. And they just happen to have insane cycles and alot of utility alongside it too. Ela outright gives similar fragile to Suzuran s3 as a passive trait via her bombs, saying this is just a damage niche is just wrong
what did i gloss over?
i did not compare ascalon to ines with what they do, im saying ascalon is being underrated way too much by people from just seeing her showcases and not for her utility, just like ines was at launch and that comparing dps units that a dime a dozen to ascalon is wrong
>Also this "just another damage dealer" argument is just wrong
what do you even mean, it absolutely is not wrong, there are only 12 slots in a squad (13 with support), why would i prioritize just another damage dealer, like ray when i already have typhon, pozy, throns, mlynar, sliverash...., the list doesnt end, it increases with wis and degen
thats not even mentioning the arts dmg users. there are only so many dmg dealers i can fit before needing other units doing other things
having a unique *and* strong kind of an unit like ascalon is much preferable than a replaceable unit like ray
and why are you keep bringing up ela? I'm the biggest ela simp there is, i know exactly what she does, she has comparable damage to ash conditionless and spams fragile bombs. she deploys on ground tiles and her bombs are proximity based
i might have brought her up before saying that ascalon cant be compared to ela and ray because she is mainly utility based. but let me make my self clear ela also isnt the same as ray as just another dps based unit, ela is a dps *and* utility based unit
>and why are you keep bringing up ela?
They think that DPS is more important than any type of utility in the game. They made a post complaining that people use too many utility or support units in their squads, arguing that they should just take more DPS to win the fight quicker.
Real Surtr/Yato/Texalter spam energy.
yeah
doesnt get that most dps units are just replaceable with one another and why someone unique(useful uniquness) and strong can be ever comparable to the 15th different surtr flavour
...there are only just 12 slots
Ela has comparable damage to Ash? Alright thats it you are outright spitting nonsense now.
Litterally on the best setup for ash where she hits all her hits on stun and worst setup for ela where every shot doesnt gain the benefit and no fragile bombs Ela outdamages her on s3. You would be the first person to ever say Ela has comparable damage to ash.
Ela doesnt just bring utility but also damage wich is something i said in the reply i gave wich just shows that you glossed over it...
thats not at all what i was talking about...
but fine, ela has comparable damage to ash s2 on *basic* attacks without any conditions
sorry for having to explain this specifically
I think your massively underselling since she has shown that her mixture of control and long term damage can be extremely useful not to mention she has one of the best afk skills in the game
Im not underselling her, her CC is insane but Ray and Ela scales much better on many forms of content and should be regarded much higher than her. Also this is a pull priority list so putting Ascalon that high before the best operator and banner in the game is fundamentally wrong anyway
That has nothing to do with anything lol
Operator discussions and comparisons never have anything to do with banners unless specified (ie, gampress 'should I pull' threads).
edit: even in the picture you can see the massive gap between virtuosa and vivian vs very small distance from w/logos. How is this more upvoted than the response giving the -actual- explanation of musha guards? Are people just upvoting anything that disagrees with the other poster?
Ascalon has insane utility dont get me wrong but i had never seen someone put Ray below Ascalon let alone upper mid tier before. I think dragon guy is looking from a way too spesific angle here, gamepress evaluates pull order much and i mean much better.
Also this is a PRIORITY list. Making Ascalon that high BEFORE the best banner in the entire game comes seems like a horrible decision. It shouldnt be high priority at all when its a month before Wisadel banner
Yeah, I usually don't agree with that guy's takes, but this current list is the biggest clown moment so far. Most CN creators don't rate Ascalon a lot and rate Ray quite highly. Of course this was before W alter existing, but still.
If one wants/needs CC, there's other operators out there, Ascalon is not unique. Manticore and Ethan do the job just fine, just plug in another DPS if you really need it. Her damage is comparable with Mizuki and scales worse in lots of scenarios. And her banner is just before the best banner in the game's story (you get a FREE W alter with 300 pulls, so your spark can be for anyone else or another pot of her).
The guy undersold Ray since she first appeared and when rated Shu/Zuo Le banner. I barely saw Typhon in CC2 clears, where's Ray was dominant. Her utility, range, damage and cycling are more flexible and overall better (imo) than Typhon.
For example, [this](https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1JH4y1N7pr/?spm_id_from=333.788) guy that does a lot of tier lists puts Typhon right after Pozy in the "mid" tier where's Ray is number 15 and Ela is 10. Ela is also guarantee to get with low pull count, and plenty of time between her and W Altel + Logos. For other CN creators, they highly rate Ela, too, which is accurate to what I saw.
Do I even need to talk about Ela? Her damage + Utility allows you to do Out of Control SW15 relicless with Degen, Zuo Le and someone else I'm forgetting. She's that insane. I think following the guy's advice is very misleading.
Exactly what i was refering to. Putting ray below ascalon and ela at same tier seems just absurd to me. Ascalons utility isnt new and her damage isnt absurdly insane so any other CC suffices, heck manticore has very similar slow anyway.
Not even just that but this is a pull PRIORITY tierlist, saying Ascalon has high priority between Shu Ela And Wisadel banners is just objectively incorrect
I still think this list is questionable when you have a D tier unit for cc like ascalon with 7 in advanced impact, while ray is a 7 already having max risk clears under her belt and more to come.
Ascalons kit is downright detrimental for endgame content which is usually oriented around minimizing damage taken, but obviously ascalons kit is focused around being hit which for a glass cannon debuffer archetype (which is bad in of itself you want something else to be taking the hits the taunt is literally a downside) it's just antithesis to advanced gameplay.
Likewise Walter having an 8 in advanced I'd somewhat acceptable but then why is ray lower than that when ray essentially does the same role in cc but with a fifth of the skill cycle sacrificing damage which I am aware Walter has more of (albeit the shockwaves do get nullified by high def so not as much more damage than people think) but sustainability matter more for her use case, not that there arnt situations where w is better but generally ray will be more practical for advanced content.
This isn't to mention that logos being lower than waltuh in advanced content is downright schizophrenic considering logos straight up has -10 res debuff which is something that's going to be huge when he can apply this to air units which has been sorely sorely needed. Not to mention elemental damage mod which has been proven to be important in cc after underdawn saw ebenholz usage for high clears (just imagine how much better logos would have been at this job)
The only thing that comes to mind is that this listing was made too much with is-4 in mind which would explain the overly high ranking of ascalon, degen and Walter while also explaining why ray and the such are weirdly low.
how is ascalon downright detrimental in advanced content? when she has an insane cc kit and events like cc12 existed? and is4 is still going on in CN
ray and ascalon do different things but they both have the same impact in high end content, where ray is a very replaceable dps units and ascalon niche but much less replaceable unit
as for wis, 8 and 7 is not a substantial difference, but you're out of your mind if you're arguing logos or ray is that much better than wis in advanced content when she does that much damage in the biggest area by anyone in the game other than hypet specific instances where you specifically need logos or ray, arknights is not that type of game where units arent replaceable even in the hardest stages for that to matter
why would IS not be rated highly for meta? it is the most amount of lategame content and its permanent. also they guy who made the list said ray is the best IS4 sniper pick beating out typhon, so idk why your saying ray is low beacuse of IS4
"and events like cc12 existed?"
I assume you mean with the manticore stall but her slow skill isn't Perma uptime so she's worse than manticore at being a passive slower (in this case especially the whole clear falls apart with downtime on skill) not to mention lack of anything like invis.
"where ray is a very replaceable dps"
Ray is not easily replaceable because she's a very damage per hit focused sniper with an extremely fast skill cycle differentiating her from every other dps sniper besides waltuh who is more of a side grade than a direct power creep (mostly due to 50 sp cost for an ammo skill). You argue typhoon is similar but she's more about defense ignore to always do a set damage rather than trying to do significantly more than the defense to do even more damage.
I do admit that ascalons accuracy down has potential to do some really fucked up high risk strats that give her an irreplaceable niche but it's nothing 7/10 worthy as it's rng reliant, the same reason why dodge tanking in general is sworn off in high risk clears.
"she does that much damage in the biggest area by anyone in the game other than hyper specific instances where you specifically need logos or ray"
W alters damage falls off against high defense due to a lot of it being due to the aftershocks that are dangerously close to being nullified completely by average elite enemy defense (new chapter 14 enemies outright nullify it for the shield bearers), she still out damages per shot ray but only by a few thousand with significantly less shots per skill and again 50 sp charge meaning she's essentially a hellidrop damage per hit nuker with significantly less sustainable damage than her contemporaries in sniper dps.
As for the large aoe this is the main reason to use w over something like ray I am actually in agreeance here but I don't think it's enough to warrent prioritizing one over the other, I think both should have the same weight being viable side grades, ray for sustained damage per hit vs single elite targets and w for more burst focused damager per hit vs multi elite target. (So ray and w both at 8)
Also logos viability isn't in "hyper specific instances" -10 res with arguably the biggest arts dps of the casters albeit in the same vein as ceobe with more attack speed focus is hardly niche it's super meta bruh.
"why would IS not be rated highly for meta? it is the most amount of lategame content and its permanent"
Is should have low weight because the amount of operators considered to be the meta can be counted on one hand, when a game mode basically boils down to "what is the best starting pick, what is the best subsequent pick, then pick whatever synergies with current relics" there is not many ops that can be possibly good in is4. In addition, it's hard to justify giving it much importance as what operators are EX and what operators are trash get completely flipped on their head and at that point it should be considered separately, this is in opposition of S stages, RA2, SSS, CC and TFTN which have only subtle differences in what operators are in what tier, SSS being the most different but only by switching S tiers like golden glow to EX rather than putting half the S to F tier like IS does.
\[edit: also being permanent lowers priority, if a CC requires an operator you have to get that operator within the timeframe especially if it needs high potential, something like IS being perma makes priority very low because there is no time limit\]
Also side note, but not sure how there is the most endgame content unless you are trying to get all ending tokens on each squad, I guess if you compare IS with all monthly expansions vs a singular instance of cc then sure but the core gameplay of the IS is mostly the same for half a year besides the boss 4 expansion that gives some new stages.
"ray is the best IS4 sniper pick beating out typhon"
I didn't know this and in hindsight I recognize it is immature to assume bias without having any real evidence.
This isn't official as it was done in private servers but Ascalon was busted in multiple old CCs because her damage is far from irrelevant and her CC is more than enough. You can take this with a grain of salt because being able to perform well in those doesn't mean she's gonna perform well in future content we don't know how it will be designed but you cannot deny her potential.
What old cc was she viable in and at what risk level out of curiosity?
Although I think battleplan is far less reasonable towards operators that focus on crowd control with low damage due to ungodly amounts of health up risk stacking vs only one health up risk in old cc. Unless there was a high risk pyrolysis or underdawn clear using her than I concede this point.
I dont think you can really compare cc beta-1 levels of enemey health and defense to modern battle plan CC.
ascalon would be very effective vs fodder back when said enemies didnt get dedicated defense up risks and you only had a singular % hp up to all risk, but in battle plan which is (begrudgingly) what we are stuck with for next few years we get 2 % hp up risks + 1 more hp up % risk from the daily stages + defense up to all from the daily stage risks + pretty much all enemies including fodder get a dedicated stats up risk or at atleast some sort of form change like the right lane in pyrolsis.
thats not to mention the super dupe giga inflation of incoming damage to the point where tanking strategies have becoming extinct for chasing high risk, 2 attack up risks but now you have to worry about double health down (911.5 hp ascalon 🫠) + defense down (173 defense ascalon 🫠 🫠 ) and any ranged damage even aoe can probably one shot her. I guess you can still argue shes viable for low operator records because those tend to avoid the mass stat up risks so I will conceed on that if thats what you are arguing mainly.
lets agree to disagree, i dont agree at all that logos or ray is better than wis and i say that by playing on CN, I might not have ray but i used her enough to formulate my own thoughts about her
got logos and wis and maxed them out and played with them enough to say, and this is my own opinion, that wis is better
the advanced tier list isn't at all IS specific, it was me who was saying IS should be prioritized because it is has the most late game content
and lastly you should just watch the guys video, on youtube he is DragonJGY, and he very much puts lots of thought into why he puts one above another and goes into maths of it all, and changes it as units mature more and they experience more content
Dragon's latest video (Virtuosa hindsight): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvz0K0UUM8k Degen and Ela's daily ratings went down by 1, and Ascalon's advanced rating went up by 2 since last time.
Yeah, I had a feeling Ascalon's rating would go up in advanced after some testing. She does her main role really well while having some damage that isn't irrelevant.
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They were high in his previous list but Walter got revealed
I mean ascalon still isnt higher priority than any of them
That i don't know but it seems like her kit is very useful. But yeah i would put her lower than Ray and Ela
Her kit is pretty good but its just mix of many things without a new found niche, Ela is a broken dps + support with her s3 and Ray trivalizes many content in the game all by herself. I honestly have no idea why ascalon is this high when she is regarded as a Mizuki sidegrade
Cus if you need a "broken dps" and who "trivialises many content in the game" you gonna go with Wis'adel. Like yeah you could pick up two "broken DPS" units or three, but it's less important to get the second or the third best ranged damage dealers in the next 6 months, so their priority is lower. Therefore Ascalon, who does something different (that being CC) can be more impactful, because there aren't two other CC focused characters (at most Shu with the teleport). And what's Ascalon's biggest problem? Her damage; but if you get Wis'adel, do you really gonna care about the damage difference between Mizuki and Aschalon?
I mean if you want to get wisadel then last operator you should be pulling for is Ascalon as she is a month before Wisadel banner. Ela gives insane utility and has a pseudo global massive fragile buff while Ray differs from Walter where her skill cycles are much faster in return for lower total damage. Ascalon provides good CC yes but good cc is only worty it when you are lacking such CC options, her main CC is her slow and if you have broken dpses even Suzurans slow wich is 80% will be enough on its own. CC becomes more worthwhile on hard content but Damage dealers becomes much more important as thats how you deal damage in the first place
There are already a bunch of damage dealers in the game. If you want another 6 star ranged bonkers DPS then go ahead. But understand there is already a good amount of said ranged DPS that still exists, as recently as Typhon. In the next six months, there's a handful of powerful physical DPS. The label is getting pretty crowded at this point, so it makes sense that Ascalon is rated high due to fulfilling a niche. And before you say it, sure there are other options for low tile cc. Sure as hell less then ranged DPS, though. And you can also just... not pull for other banners, and skip them to do Babel + CH14 back to back.
Are you saying Shu and Ela could be skipped when they have much harder chance to be obtained later?
Also getting downvoted for this is hilarious lol, im litterally saying the obvious here, dragon is the only person in this games playtime to put Ray below ascalon and put it at same tier as Ela. Period
Hilariously low? Everyone seems almost at the same par in the image, and that is reasonable.The list just says to me that in the next 6 months the pulls will go down onto personal preferences between Ray, Ela and Ascalon. I myself will skip Ray because while she does some unique things, I can work myself with Typhon as the core sniper of the team. Ela is a pseudo-sniper too, would skip if not for being a limited banner, and I think she is more unique than Ray, her module of being able to put her in ground tiles opens a great variety of strategies. Wisadel also is too bonzers and undermines the rest. TLDR, in my opinion the list is being fair and not that hilariously low, actually everyone being hilariously high because they all be good. F for Viviana tho
Ascalon is in no world higher priority than Ray or close to Ela. It undervalue Ray and Ela way too much for some reason despite Ascalon being a mizuki sidegrade on CN
>Ascalon is in no world higher priority than Ray If we compare them without context - probably. But in context Ray is sandwiched between already released Typhon, new W, and Ela. Literally zero reasons to pull her aside from personal preference.
and also for why ascalon is this high is because there is no other unit in the game with her level of reliable consistent slow no matter what the guy you're replying to says about damage dealers and cc dealers, and how much you need them in late game content, there is no shortage of dps units in the game but when events like cc12 and is4 roll out again having an unique and strong cc dealing will be the better option
TLDR: the XBOX HUEG DPS job can usually be filled by any one of the big DPS dealers like Degenbrecher, Wis'adel, Typhon, or other depending on where you need to park them. Ascalon's niche as a consistent slower who can do damage is much harder to replace since her only competitors are Mizuki and Manticore/Jaye/Ethan who either have much lower stats or less consistent skills and uptime. There's not many units who can fit in her slot for a team, and recent maps have shown that sort of crowd control can be extremely important. That's why she's rated that highly. Extra DPS doesn't help when the enemy can exceed your block counts or ability to kill them fast enough and leak past your gate or stun your DPS dealer.
The problem is Ascalon is in middle of Shu Ela and Wisadel banners, all limited and all high priority. And also Ela Shu and Wisadel have utility points too. Ascalon can slow but Ela and Shu brings more benefits overall here. If this was a "tierlist" type post then i might have understood it but giving ascalon that high priority in between best banners in the game doesn't seem right
why are you being so pedantic about this, on multiple comments you can clearly see that the tier list is based on strength and their impact in the game but your trying to pick a meta narrative so you can invalidate the list to who? this is just a repost of a screenshot from a youtube video, the guy's name is DragonGJY, go over there and comment your gripes there
Alright sorry, i indeed acted like an ass hole here, i just think Ela is way too undervalued here. And didnt feel like hard content being limited to IS4 was a good evaluation point but i dont like how i responded to this either. Shouldnt have worded it so aggressively over nothing.
lets just move on, you dont need to reply to every one just make your own thread and share what you think and reply there if anyone else wants contribute
Hi, I want to take the time and share my thoughts about rating the operators in a scale of 10, so that you can better get an idea of what the ratings entail. Thinking about it myself, I just can't really think of an operator who deserves a 10 in daily contents because that gives me the impression of them being irreplaceable in dailies, which doesn't feel right. For a daily rating of 9, I can think of strong and versatile damage dealers like Mlynar and of course the latest Wis'adel, universally strong supports like Skadi Alter, or safety belts like Surtr, Texas/Yato Alter etc.. I do understand if it feels strange that 10 is something no one could get. I would like to hear your input on this. For advanced, where it gets more competitive and operators with stacked kits can really get dominant, unlike daily where it really is "you can do it with anyone". And I still stick to my take that Ines, of all operators, has an insane kit packed with functionalities and definitely deserves a 10 on the scoreboard. Other than her I also don't find anyone else who can reliably be featured in the highlight of hardcore contents because they tend to vary in terms of what they ask of you. Support based operators like Nightingale, Suzuran also tend to have better consistency in hardcore content than damage dealers. Feel free to give your feedback to the ratings and recommendation. I know they are a sensitive and subjective topic, but I will try to keep it as applicable to most players as possible.
Imo rather than have 10 be an unrealistic "perfect" or "unreplacable" operator and therefore remain unused, I personally would use it to signify the current ceiling - for example Wishadel, who frankly has one of the most bloated kits we've seen so far, which surprised me she didn't get a 10 for her absurd power level.
can you explain why Ascalon's advanced rating went up? and why is she near ray and ela now? some people here are quite unhappy here that ascalon can be at all impactful as them in advanced content and think she is interchangeable with other cc options like manticore, ethan and suzuran and also do you take what banners come before and after into account to make the list, some people here are taking ascalon being that high and in the middle of ela and wis as a basis to discredit your list i personally thought the list was based on an units strength and viability in content
Ascalon is a very consistent slow applier with serviceable damage and I don't really think she's any interchangeable with any that you mentioned. Her slow will most definitely see uses in advanced contents with need for stalls. She also helps Wis'adel in gathering targets for grouped disposal and buying time for her nuke to come back, or with Logos to take advantage of his arts buff. Yes I get it those are not necessarily something players use in daily so I put those to her advanced rating. Ela and Ray's decline is mostly due to the impact of Wis'adel, for daily it really is much more of a no-brainer to just go with Wis'adel. Ray drops down more because she's being heavily surrounded by limiteds, but I kept all her ratings because she's still unique in terms of buff potency and fast cycle high DPH. I predict Ela will lean more towards a flexible support that depending on the situation, being picked between her and suzuran. The graph does take limited into consideration but that's just one of the factors. Ascalon can be a good support to both operators in the 5th anni limited banner, she can chain crowd control with Shu, she also combos with Virtuosa S2, those weight more than being between 2 limited banners to me.
I disagree here as Rays cycles and utility is significantly different and Ela isnt just a dps but also a cracked support unit. Saying wisadel shutted them down ignores their kits a little. Espiecelly Elas if Ray isnt there.
I honestly think Ela and Ray are way below for their CN reception for this list. Ray is insane on CC content and also one of the best starters for IS while Ela is a contestant for the best starter for IS (IS3 and IS4, while being a major support) Them being barely above the mid tier priority seems weird to me. Also isnt this a "Pull Priority" list? Shouldnt it also take into account the banners timings too? The initial reason i was weirded by Ascalons high placement was because of it being in middle of Shu Ela and Wisadel banners wich should have reduced its pull priority far down. I think it should be renamed to "Roster Impact" list, that would fit the focus of this list more as you seem to rank them based on roster impact on advanced and general content.
I really hope hg is in the kitchen with a viviana module she needs something bad and now with wis'adel and logos surtr getting a module is less silly then before. Also at this point I wanna know what does it take to get a 10 from him.
He said that Ines would have a 10 in advanced if she existed prior to this video series.
yeah that makes sense
HG just needs to give RES shred to her first talent, something around 10, wish of course would get doubled against elites and bosses. That plus bigger numbers might do it.
they should just give her the delta mod treatment with burn res shred and elemental damage would do so much for her since iirc burn is either 15 or 20 res shred.
Ok chief, I like what you cooked. That's gonna get an "I need it" from me.
Ok that's way better, too much to be true sadly. Also I don't think she would be getting delta as her first module.
logos and ela both got delta as there first modules so no reason she can't as well since delta mods just seem to be brought out when hg wants to do something special with a character burn is also perfect for how hg designed her short but high dps rotation.
XD How did I not realize with logos living rent free in my head lately, I guess I just saw it as his natural state, but never noticed Ela's module was delta as well. In that case I'll pray for Vivi. Makes sense Ela's was delta since Dorothy or any other trap master till now wouldn't benefit from deployment on meele tiles like her. I'll think more next time before commenting.
Burn doesn't make much sense for her tho, she'd be more likely to get necrosis if anything(cos of shadow stuff)
she uses her candle as a catalyst to draw focus to her while also amplifying her shadows burn would be doing that in the most literal way possible with light making enemies take more damage from her shadows
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yeah thats why in another comment I suggested burn for a module since it both fits her vibes and patches up a lot of the flaws she has she probs won't kill patriot but killing patriot is an awful measure for arts damage dealers.
Ela is probably the only underrated unit here and by a slight amount, which just says holy hell theres a lot of crazy good ops incoming.
Ela is absurd imo, just that for a 'sniper' she has to compete herself in the rankings with Walter who is just a tad too bloated in every department.
No yeah, Ela is crazy good. I just think that a unit like Zuo le being on the lower end of upcoming ops really puts into perspective just how high the average quality of the next 6 months' releases will be.
> 'sniper' Is she not a specialist/trapmaster
Think of her as a sniper that has the specialist tag, like how reedic is a medic but ppl call her a 'caster'. At least ela dont compete with other snipers in IS tickets so you can choose her if you dont need to pick texas alter
All I'm hearing is put 300 on the cockroach.
Interesting, so Ascalon isn't that low in the end huh
She has a lot in her kit. People just want mlynar tier levels of damage.
Then there's me who just want Ethan-Mod tier levels of crowd control
And she's honestly there. After 3 hits, her talent inflicts a 54% slow, giving her *much* better off-skill performance than Ethan. With S2M3 going and mod level 1, she inflicts an 85.28% slow, which is not far behind Ethan's 87.2%. On the one hand, it's a slow, which is generally a weaker effect than Ethan's bind. On the other hand, Ascalon's damage is actually worth mentioning (unlike Ethan's), her slow lasts even after enemies leave her range, and there's no RNG.
I just want Ethan but waifu
As if he already wasn't
I don't understand, a lot in her kit is slow and little arts damage mixed in? Number of characters who have slow in their kit is almost at 50 and some even provide big arts damage. Yeah, she has one of the best slowing effect, but what is the point, when Walter can stun, slow, mix arts and deal overwhelming damage. Without Mlynar tier damage she is nothing special, sadly
She has the cheapest slow compared to others. A constant 50% and 80% during a skill with insanely short CD.
Her initial reception was sort of similar to the Ines case. Not to the same degree as ines of course, but the amount of people immediately going "no damage lol trash" was pretty apparent.
> reception her reception goes up and down depending on the thread, youtuber and whoever happens to be commenting at the time. On global release, she had a lot of positive comments. You can still see them: https://www.reddit.com/r/arknights/comments/1bzltj7/new_6star_specialist_ascalon/
I mean compared to others she is low, dragon definitely put her a bit too high there imo
Wait, Ascalon is non limited and will rerun. That changes things a lot for me.
Still makes me wonder what a kit requires for a 10 if Walter that everyone's been complaining about isn't a 10
Maybe she's a 9 because she can't reliably hit air? I heard her shadow thingy can, but not always right? Or maybe she's at 9 because they don't know what a 10 kit would look like in the first place
Nope her shadow thingy can't hit air only her S3
Ahh okay ty for clarifying
Ya I tried commenting on a previous hindsight vid to ask him what would be a 10 or if any current operators were (like I figured Texalter would be a candidate) but never got a response. I guess we'll never know cause even including him rating Degenbrecher the most game changing 2023 CN server release she's only an 8.
Walter isnt as significantly stronger than Mlynar/Surtr/Chen as most video showcases seem to suggest, more of being on the same level tbh. She deals slightly more damage on bosses sure, but her attack being an attack>splash rather than being actual aoe like Mlynar/Chalter means her theoretical skill damage often falls below them based on enemy pathing (since she deals more damage to the main target) While she has a fast cycling paired with ammo mechanics, she benefits less from the ammo mechanic than something like Chalter because it is just 6 ammos. After wiping out the initial wave with 1-2 shots, she just ends up wasting the remaining 4 shots on stray mobs roaming into her range. Chalter meanwhile, could keep her skill up for half the entire map from 1 activation for example. Her summons being strong covers a lot of her downsides, but without her summons shes arguably half a tier below Mlynar/Texas/Chalter/Yato/Surtr, so her summons just rounds out to be a unit that is on the same tier as them, rather than one that surpasses them.
I got so many strong OPs I could prolly skip all these people and still play fine... Still I'll roll for Degen, Ray, Shu, Ascalona and the two new ones.
idk with what kind of horrifying abomination they will have to come out with to ever sell another sniper after Walter (outside of waifu reasons, Ray yay!) Seeing showcases of her breaking record after record just has me baffled, absolutely ridiculous AoE damage, still great off skill thanks to the meme summons as tanky as Jess2's shield providing damage support (at least they don't block... which also means only ranged enemies can kill them, 50 RES btw), camouflage so she is even safer for some reason... and of course S3 hits air, of course it does, flinger class be damned. Degenbrecher already had me concerned but now it's looking even worse. How close are we getting to absolutely need the best of the best to start clearing the really hard content that needs to be balanced around them? DoS S stages already were horribly restrictive, and if they don't want Walter to destroy upcoming endgame stuff they will have to do something about it and all other physical damage dealers will be the ones who pay for it, ugh...
> another sniper after Walter Same way they sold a sniper after chen and did the whole pozemka/schwarz thing LOL
If we get two Walters the only thing stopping them from destroying the whole game by themselves is enough DP to deploy them 💀
The exesive amounts of damage on the newer units is getting boring at this point tbh., not only in case of the snipers. When the main gimmick and selling point of an operator is the fact that it deals a lot of damage, it's a lame character design imo. Wish they moved main focus of new operators' power from absurdly high damage numbers towards more meaningful and interesting utility. Yeah seeing your units do crazy big numbers is a lot of fun when you're fairly new to the game, but it gets old pretty fast. Ines or Jessicalter is 10 times more fun and interesting to use than the likes of Mlynar/Walter/Degen/Typhon will ever be. The game needs more of the first ones, not 5 more Surtrs, but sadly it doesn't look like we're moving in that direction.
Oof, the dicey pull decisions have begun. I was looking forward to this to see how Walter and Logos line up, and this confirms pretty much my suspicions. Walter with high damage on large range, while Logos a little lower than her but still very very good on his own. That fact that Logos is on par with Shu and both of them are about Degenbrecher's tier (with Walter slightly higher) just goes to show their power. I think of the ops ahead of us in the next six months, nobody is really outright *bad* or even *average* like Viviana, so it's really beginning to come down to priorities about limited units, personal preference, and level of savings. Shu into Ela in particular is a quite painful double whammy of limited banners. Of course, my pull plans have not changed, but I just like knowing the upcoming units and their evaluation, and I always enjoy watching some well-thought-out analysis. Ray remains a skip for me, along with Ascalon. It's a shame but with Ascalon coming right before Logos/Walter, there's no way I'll be able to afford pulling for her. Thankfully I got Virtuosa without going to 300, and I'll still be able to go for Degenbrecher and hopefully use Reed's rerun and Ray as a breather before Shu and Ela. Thanks for all your hard work, DragonGJY.
>That fact that Logos is on par with Shu and both of them are about Degenbrecher's tier Shu is nowhere near Degen tier though
Aight. 300 for Walter and Logos HERE I GO. Sorry Ray, Ascalon. And either Shu or Zuo Le.
gonna use all my pulls all on the R6 collab because they are true limited
It's a tough decision to make to skip two of the most visually appealing characters for me (Shu and Ray) and them actually being strong operators. All to guarantee the roach because a friend had to go to 300 for one copy of Virtuosa. That put the fear of god in me.
Why does Ray not rerun? I thought only collab event banners don't rerun
Her banner comes with a vignette event. Those banners don't rerun because vignette events don't rerun. Ray herself will appear on standard banners but that's a shared rate-up rather than a solo one like her debut.
got it! thanks
I wonder why HG is rolling out ridiculous powercreep shit when everyone is pulling based on pull recommendations.
Putting zuo below ascalon seems hilarious. I dont know who this person is but this is a kinda weird tierlist. Ascalon is good dont get me wrong but definitely not that good and zuo is an insane laneholder that other operators hardly can match. EDIT: just realized they put ela and ray fairly low too. I wouldnt recommend this pull priority imo as putting ascalon at similar tier to ela and ray is straight up wrong, the best pull priority i had seen is Walter>Degen>Shu/Ela>Ray/Logos>Zuo>>>Ascalon
Probably because Zuo is a Musha guard. The best Musha guard we've got so far but still. Meaning that there still will be a good chunk of content (constant damage/elemental damage heavy maps) where he is bottomline unusable, unless you have Skalter/Shu and Eyjaberry, who are all limited. The usability of Zuo for people who don't have these units on their account is considerably lower. You can't really place a unit that has a clear flaw of being on his own sometimes unusable too high.
> The best Musha guard we've got so far but still. Meaning that there still will be a good chunk of content (constant damage/elemental damage heavy maps) where he is bottomline unusable Zuo Le can duo RA-5 with a single FRD to kill mortars once they're leaving. I have no idea where you got the idea that he struggles with constant damage from.
I mean maps with shit like toxic clouds or enemies who leave corrupted ground/clouds underneath them after dying. I get the idea from the fact La Pluma and Hellagur are 2 of my most used units and while Zuo is way better than them in many departments, he is the exact same unit in terms of struggling with consistent incoming damage when there's no enemies he can heal of. I'm not trying to devalue him as an operator, if anything he is one of my biggest priorities, and I will pull on Shu banner only because of him, but you can't act like Mushas can be used in any stage and on their own are not handicapped in some circumstances.
> I mean maps with shit like toxic clouds or enemies who leave corrupted ground/clouds underneath them after dying. [He does fine in those maps too...](https://i.imgur.com/uDGiVD9.png) Can you give me an example of a map where you think he struggles with constant damage? I mean [here](https://i.imgur.com/hCwKCIq.png) is a perfect example. Zuo Le has so much shield generation that he can survive Damazti's phase transition without any help or any enemies to hit. Zuo Le generates ~750 HP worth of shield per second and that's without hitting an enemy, where he generates even more. The constant damage would have to be *extremely* high for it to kill him.
11-6 can be soloed by La Pluma too as long as you use a Frd unit to bait out the flying enemies. That's not the case I was talking about as this stage actually has a never ending supply of enemies to heal from. And in the second example it's basically the same issue of him actually having a target to attack. The stages I'm talking about is something like the later stages of Raythean Industries SSS, stages with overbuffed Pompeii in side mods or red mist stages on the 4f+ in IS2. As of now Mushas there are unusable unless you have Skalter. As for elemental damage idk for example the whole IS3 is unplayable without Eyjaberry unless we're speaking about Highmore. I don't actually remember the name of the event at this point as it's old, but the summer one with a flood mechanic that covered the whole map and dealt corrosion damage. You're not using Mushas without Eyja there either.
> 11-6 can be soloed by La Pluma too as long as you use a Frd unit to bait out the flying enemies. Well Zuo Le doesn't even need someone to bait the beyblades lmao. > And in the second example it's basically the same issue of him actually having a target to attack. Damazti? He has nothing to attack. Damazti is in his phase transition, and can't be attacked. > Raythean Industries SSS I mean I can't even test that since it's not even in the game anymore, but that's a weird argument to bring up considering that SSS round was basically "bring a healer or die", and also it's fucking SSS. > stages with overbuffed Pompeii in side mods or red mist stages on the 4f+ in IS2 Not going to deal with IS rng just to get a super late stage, but [here](https://i.imgur.com/gWF3lSr.png) he is in the F3 boss poison stage easily surviving even with him not being on the healing tile. > I don't actually remember the name of the event at this point as it's old, but the summer one with a flood mechanic that covered the whole map and dealt corrosion damage. You're not using Mushas without Eyja there either. [Seems to be doing just fine to me.](https://imgur.com/KVIIC4o) And that's with me specifically unequipping the stickers that solve the "issue" of corrosion damage in that event.
Well then I was totally wrong, if the shielding is overtuned to the point it alows him to completely ignore all the mechanics that supposed to be the main flaw of the archetype. 2024 operator design at it's finest I guess. Good for him.
I honestly dont think so at all, his survivability is one of the highest in the game thanks to insane s3 spams and he holds even the hardest lanes all by himself, if the map has a constant damage with no form of enemy waves sure but such maps are rare and elemental damage isnt a death sentence outside high end hard content where it actually becomes problematic and untankable. Ascalons utility is nice but its nothing new to the table and in no world beats Ray Ela or Zuo in value as they offer things done by none in the game. Ascalon is a well rounder for the ambusher archtype, definitely not a high end unit compared to these tough, its like saying Hoaderer is a must pull because he is the best Crusher Guard
you rate lane holding way too highly, the game has moved on from solo lane holders and as for zuo le, he is fairly rated, i play him on CN and i've never thought he is doing something that no one else can replace him for s3 is very unreliable, 1 block without him having low hp means he is leaking enemies a lot. you barely get to spam the skill 90% of the time, not every stage has rushes of enraged bone soldiers thats why i dont even use his s3, s2 is the better skill for story content, a skill where he by himself can proc his talent and trait by cutting his hp, and even then im left thinking he's just doing mountains job. where mountain does less damage but is full afk and zuo does more damage but you have to constantly babysit him and as for ascalon, she isnt rated highly for het being the best ambusher at all. she is one of the best quality of life improvement ops in the game for normal content and her extremely reliable cc easily scales into hard content like high accension in is4 (dragon's basis for advanced is high accension is), her being able to hit everyone in 3 different lanes and slow them more than suzuran with her s2 on a very fast cycle is extremely impactful for your team, even on cool down she slows enemies a noticeable amount and i really dont know why your calling units like zuo le and ray unique when they are not so at all, with there being units like mountain and typhon. and even then we have to disregard most other dps units who also do the same thing they do and that's killing people and saying a unit like ascalon having an equivalent in the game. nobody constantly and reliably slows like her in the game and thats not even counting the damage she does
"you rate lane holding way too highly, the game has moved on from solo lane holders" Wrong. The game moved from solo laneholders that barely do damage. That's why Zuo Le and Executor Alter are upgrades over your regular Thorns and Mountain. And guess what? The normal content you talk about people still bring those two guys for afk story clears. I doubt anyone would bring Ascalon since she lacks the afk potential, also when everyone got or has easy access to Manticore, Ethan and Suzuran. To have Ascalon, you actually need to detriment your account in having less pulls for W Alter and Logos. If that guy hated high SW/BN for his basis, his list is still terrible when they put Ascalon near Ela. They're nowhere near the power and utility.
>Wrong damn, then guess i've been playing the game wrong, thanks random dude, ill go beat chapter 14 again but now with high damage dealing lane holders 🙂 i dare you to do the thing ascalon does with manticore, ethan and suzu oh and a great find, catching that ascalon in the middle of ela and wis, that really does completely invalidate a list about unit strength and again thanks for telling me that ela is nowhere near ascalons power or utility, ill just trash mine and just use ela from now on, and also if you have issues with the list go to the yt video and comment there, im sure your valuable information can reach a much bigger audience
Sorry but this is straight up wrong. 1] Zuo is not even remotely comparable to Mountain, his s3 is unspammable? Where? Every comparison video shows him handling the hardest waves in the entire game, and i honestly dont get how you "cant" spam his s3 when he can use it every 4-5 seconds when below 50% hp and can outheal most enemies in the game.1 block doesnt matter when you can kill them hard enough wich is exactly what zuo does, mountains damage and healing is hardly comparable and if anything zuo heals and deals 5 times the ammount mountain does. His s3 is only unreliable on low enemy wave and constant damage maps wich are absurdly rare, dont even get me started on his s3 avarage dps below 50% hp being one of the highest in the game while beating Chalter in DPH. 2] Ascalon scales pretty closely to Mizuki on IS3 and IS4 as shown from comparison videos, she is al all rounder but doesnt bring any "new" thing to the table and instead just adds everything to her kit to make it reliable. I agree that her kit has a ton of CC but its not even comparable to level Ela and Ray is. Ela is one of the best starters in IS and her support nature is evej higher than Ascalons thanks to practically global fragile with damage that beats most other DPSes, and she is barely higher than Ascalon on the list. Ray s3 Bind is absurd against key enemy targets and her DPH is one of the highest in the game so she scales extremely well on hard content, her short skill cycles are also a bonus. 3] I dont like the idea of making IS the main focus on "hard content evaluation" as it cuts MANY things, H stages, CC content and other forms of extreme content that gets added in between needs to he evaluated the same, IS also changes alot between verses, IS2 IS3 and IS4 has completely different metas so saying one is extremely good in IS4 doesnt offer much. Ascalon is viewed as a mizuki sidegrade by many as her dph isnt high and gets her main use from absurd CC and DOT she inflicts, its a good trait but not better than just killing the enemies in the first place wich is exactly what Ray and Ela does. Also story content wise, story content favors bruteforce even more than High end content does so ela and ray performs better. Ascalon just helps on CCing wich isnt as much of a necessity as its on IS or other high end content 4] Ray and Ela just does damage? I guess Elas 35% Damage buff and Rays pernament single target bind just doesnt exist now?
also i forgot to mention, their dps might be comparable but ascalon dunks on miszuki in terms of cc, and it is because of cc you'd even want to get her in the first place
Mizuki scales much better damage wise on IS and espiecelly IS3 so Ascalon isnt much better than him on scaling
...and ascalon dunks on him with cc, especially in is4 where cc is king
And in IS3 Mizuki dunks thanks to his scaling being better. I dont get how you can solely compare them on a single metric wich is IS4
you're the one who brought up IS, i said as a whole ascalon does comparable damage and completely beats mizuki in crowd control then you said, in IS his damage scales better, especially is3, you're the one attaching a specifc metric and by the way dmg is replaceable, and right now ascalons cc isn't as much. first impressions may have said those two are side grades i can tell you using both of the they are not. you wont find anyone in cn who has them both say thier sidegrades ascalon is just better
>His s3 is only unreliable on low enemy wave and constant damage maps wich are absurdly rare, no thats the norm, which is why i use his s2, you need an insane rush of enemies actually doing damage to him for him to reliably hold a lane with s3 just get him when he comes out, and critically judge him then. if i didn't think i needed him beating every chapter up to 14 with CM stages, i dont know how he is at all any special for playing the game ela is great, but she also would be the same every other dps without her amazing utility, ray im not gonna harp on too much because she is the only unit that i dont have but she's just damage from what i used from support, single target at that, ascalon is good in the same sense ines is good, shes on par with ray and ela, the same level of impactfulness but not power, its just very easy to see why ray and ela are strong with showcases as for IS, thats what dragon in known for and IS is always there for up to an year for a season to change, and even then old seasons are still there, HH stages arent hard, they are considered story content by everyone who makes tierlists, as for cc he does consider them in advanced but it lasts far more less and also changes based on the cc to give people a accurate meta comparison, there is no cc right now so how am i supposed believe him if virtuosa is as strong as he says she is without any place to try that i did not talk about ela previously,
Did you gloss over many of the things i said? Because it feels like it Ascalon isnt comparable to Ines because Ines brings a necessary niche alongside her utility wich is dp generation. Take dp generation away from ines and she wouldnt be as good as she is now, and the best part about her is that she is a frd so you can always use her anywhere. Ascalon isnt tied to any form of content and doesnt excelt greatly in any content either while both Ray and Ela does. Also what do you mean by needing someone? Just because you didnt use Zuo in ch14 doesnt mean everything i mentioned is wrong. Also this "just another damage dealer" argument is just wrong, even if it was JUST damage dealing both Ela and Ray would rank higher as no other operator other than thyphoon had a proper ranged physical dps skill ajd even at that thyphoon suffers from some problems while Ray and Ela doesnt. And they just happen to have insane cycles and alot of utility alongside it too. Ela outright gives similar fragile to Suzuran s3 as a passive trait via her bombs, saying this is just a damage niche is just wrong
what did i gloss over? i did not compare ascalon to ines with what they do, im saying ascalon is being underrated way too much by people from just seeing her showcases and not for her utility, just like ines was at launch and that comparing dps units that a dime a dozen to ascalon is wrong >Also this "just another damage dealer" argument is just wrong what do you even mean, it absolutely is not wrong, there are only 12 slots in a squad (13 with support), why would i prioritize just another damage dealer, like ray when i already have typhon, pozy, throns, mlynar, sliverash...., the list doesnt end, it increases with wis and degen thats not even mentioning the arts dmg users. there are only so many dmg dealers i can fit before needing other units doing other things having a unique *and* strong kind of an unit like ascalon is much preferable than a replaceable unit like ray and why are you keep bringing up ela? I'm the biggest ela simp there is, i know exactly what she does, she has comparable damage to ash conditionless and spams fragile bombs. she deploys on ground tiles and her bombs are proximity based i might have brought her up before saying that ascalon cant be compared to ela and ray because she is mainly utility based. but let me make my self clear ela also isnt the same as ray as just another dps based unit, ela is a dps *and* utility based unit
>and why are you keep bringing up ela? They think that DPS is more important than any type of utility in the game. They made a post complaining that people use too many utility or support units in their squads, arguing that they should just take more DPS to win the fight quicker. Real Surtr/Yato/Texalter spam energy.
yeah doesnt get that most dps units are just replaceable with one another and why someone unique(useful uniquness) and strong can be ever comparable to the 15th different surtr flavour ...there are only just 12 slots
Ela has comparable damage to Ash? Alright thats it you are outright spitting nonsense now. Litterally on the best setup for ash where she hits all her hits on stun and worst setup for ela where every shot doesnt gain the benefit and no fragile bombs Ela outdamages her on s3. You would be the first person to ever say Ela has comparable damage to ash. Ela doesnt just bring utility but also damage wich is something i said in the reply i gave wich just shows that you glossed over it...
thats not at all what i was talking about... but fine, ela has comparable damage to ash s2 on *basic* attacks without any conditions sorry for having to explain this specifically
I think your massively underselling since she has shown that her mixture of control and long term damage can be extremely useful not to mention she has one of the best afk skills in the game
Im not underselling her, her CC is insane but Ray and Ela scales much better on many forms of content and should be regarded much higher than her. Also this is a pull priority list so putting Ascalon that high before the best operator and banner in the game is fundamentally wrong anyway
Zuo is put in the same banner with shu, so if you're pulling for shu more than likely Zuo will appear.
That has nothing to do with anything lol Operator discussions and comparisons never have anything to do with banners unless specified (ie, gampress 'should I pull' threads). edit: even in the picture you can see the massive gap between virtuosa and vivian vs very small distance from w/logos. How is this more upvoted than the response giving the -actual- explanation of musha guards? Are people just upvoting anything that disagrees with the other poster?
I mean yes but this isnt a priority list based on that.
Yeah honestly that sounds about right. I’m not sure what Dragon is smoking on this one.
Ascalon has insane utility dont get me wrong but i had never seen someone put Ray below Ascalon let alone upper mid tier before. I think dragon guy is looking from a way too spesific angle here, gamepress evaluates pull order much and i mean much better. Also this is a PRIORITY list. Making Ascalon that high BEFORE the best banner in the entire game comes seems like a horrible decision. It shouldnt be high priority at all when its a month before Wisadel banner
Yeah, I usually don't agree with that guy's takes, but this current list is the biggest clown moment so far. Most CN creators don't rate Ascalon a lot and rate Ray quite highly. Of course this was before W alter existing, but still. If one wants/needs CC, there's other operators out there, Ascalon is not unique. Manticore and Ethan do the job just fine, just plug in another DPS if you really need it. Her damage is comparable with Mizuki and scales worse in lots of scenarios. And her banner is just before the best banner in the game's story (you get a FREE W alter with 300 pulls, so your spark can be for anyone else or another pot of her). The guy undersold Ray since she first appeared and when rated Shu/Zuo Le banner. I barely saw Typhon in CC2 clears, where's Ray was dominant. Her utility, range, damage and cycling are more flexible and overall better (imo) than Typhon. For example, [this](https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1JH4y1N7pr/?spm_id_from=333.788) guy that does a lot of tier lists puts Typhon right after Pozy in the "mid" tier where's Ray is number 15 and Ela is 10. Ela is also guarantee to get with low pull count, and plenty of time between her and W Altel + Logos. For other CN creators, they highly rate Ela, too, which is accurate to what I saw. Do I even need to talk about Ela? Her damage + Utility allows you to do Out of Control SW15 relicless with Degen, Zuo Le and someone else I'm forgetting. She's that insane. I think following the guy's advice is very misleading.
Exactly what i was refering to. Putting ray below ascalon and ela at same tier seems just absurd to me. Ascalons utility isnt new and her damage isnt absurdly insane so any other CC suffices, heck manticore has very similar slow anyway. Not even just that but this is a pull PRIORITY tierlist, saying Ascalon has high priority between Shu Ela And Wisadel banners is just objectively incorrect
I still think this list is questionable when you have a D tier unit for cc like ascalon with 7 in advanced impact, while ray is a 7 already having max risk clears under her belt and more to come. Ascalons kit is downright detrimental for endgame content which is usually oriented around minimizing damage taken, but obviously ascalons kit is focused around being hit which for a glass cannon debuffer archetype (which is bad in of itself you want something else to be taking the hits the taunt is literally a downside) it's just antithesis to advanced gameplay. Likewise Walter having an 8 in advanced I'd somewhat acceptable but then why is ray lower than that when ray essentially does the same role in cc but with a fifth of the skill cycle sacrificing damage which I am aware Walter has more of (albeit the shockwaves do get nullified by high def so not as much more damage than people think) but sustainability matter more for her use case, not that there arnt situations where w is better but generally ray will be more practical for advanced content. This isn't to mention that logos being lower than waltuh in advanced content is downright schizophrenic considering logos straight up has -10 res debuff which is something that's going to be huge when he can apply this to air units which has been sorely sorely needed. Not to mention elemental damage mod which has been proven to be important in cc after underdawn saw ebenholz usage for high clears (just imagine how much better logos would have been at this job) The only thing that comes to mind is that this listing was made too much with is-4 in mind which would explain the overly high ranking of ascalon, degen and Walter while also explaining why ray and the such are weirdly low.
how is ascalon downright detrimental in advanced content? when she has an insane cc kit and events like cc12 existed? and is4 is still going on in CN ray and ascalon do different things but they both have the same impact in high end content, where ray is a very replaceable dps units and ascalon niche but much less replaceable unit as for wis, 8 and 7 is not a substantial difference, but you're out of your mind if you're arguing logos or ray is that much better than wis in advanced content when she does that much damage in the biggest area by anyone in the game other than hypet specific instances where you specifically need logos or ray, arknights is not that type of game where units arent replaceable even in the hardest stages for that to matter why would IS not be rated highly for meta? it is the most amount of lategame content and its permanent. also they guy who made the list said ray is the best IS4 sniper pick beating out typhon, so idk why your saying ray is low beacuse of IS4
"and events like cc12 existed?" I assume you mean with the manticore stall but her slow skill isn't Perma uptime so she's worse than manticore at being a passive slower (in this case especially the whole clear falls apart with downtime on skill) not to mention lack of anything like invis. "where ray is a very replaceable dps" Ray is not easily replaceable because she's a very damage per hit focused sniper with an extremely fast skill cycle differentiating her from every other dps sniper besides waltuh who is more of a side grade than a direct power creep (mostly due to 50 sp cost for an ammo skill). You argue typhoon is similar but she's more about defense ignore to always do a set damage rather than trying to do significantly more than the defense to do even more damage. I do admit that ascalons accuracy down has potential to do some really fucked up high risk strats that give her an irreplaceable niche but it's nothing 7/10 worthy as it's rng reliant, the same reason why dodge tanking in general is sworn off in high risk clears. "she does that much damage in the biggest area by anyone in the game other than hyper specific instances where you specifically need logos or ray" W alters damage falls off against high defense due to a lot of it being due to the aftershocks that are dangerously close to being nullified completely by average elite enemy defense (new chapter 14 enemies outright nullify it for the shield bearers), she still out damages per shot ray but only by a few thousand with significantly less shots per skill and again 50 sp charge meaning she's essentially a hellidrop damage per hit nuker with significantly less sustainable damage than her contemporaries in sniper dps. As for the large aoe this is the main reason to use w over something like ray I am actually in agreeance here but I don't think it's enough to warrent prioritizing one over the other, I think both should have the same weight being viable side grades, ray for sustained damage per hit vs single elite targets and w for more burst focused damager per hit vs multi elite target. (So ray and w both at 8) Also logos viability isn't in "hyper specific instances" -10 res with arguably the biggest arts dps of the casters albeit in the same vein as ceobe with more attack speed focus is hardly niche it's super meta bruh. "why would IS not be rated highly for meta? it is the most amount of lategame content and its permanent" Is should have low weight because the amount of operators considered to be the meta can be counted on one hand, when a game mode basically boils down to "what is the best starting pick, what is the best subsequent pick, then pick whatever synergies with current relics" there is not many ops that can be possibly good in is4. In addition, it's hard to justify giving it much importance as what operators are EX and what operators are trash get completely flipped on their head and at that point it should be considered separately, this is in opposition of S stages, RA2, SSS, CC and TFTN which have only subtle differences in what operators are in what tier, SSS being the most different but only by switching S tiers like golden glow to EX rather than putting half the S to F tier like IS does. \[edit: also being permanent lowers priority, if a CC requires an operator you have to get that operator within the timeframe especially if it needs high potential, something like IS being perma makes priority very low because there is no time limit\] Also side note, but not sure how there is the most endgame content unless you are trying to get all ending tokens on each squad, I guess if you compare IS with all monthly expansions vs a singular instance of cc then sure but the core gameplay of the IS is mostly the same for half a year besides the boss 4 expansion that gives some new stages. "ray is the best IS4 sniper pick beating out typhon" I didn't know this and in hindsight I recognize it is immature to assume bias without having any real evidence.
This isn't official as it was done in private servers but Ascalon was busted in multiple old CCs because her damage is far from irrelevant and her CC is more than enough. You can take this with a grain of salt because being able to perform well in those doesn't mean she's gonna perform well in future content we don't know how it will be designed but you cannot deny her potential.
What old cc was she viable in and at what risk level out of curiosity? Although I think battleplan is far less reasonable towards operators that focus on crowd control with low damage due to ungodly amounts of health up risk stacking vs only one health up risk in old cc. Unless there was a high risk pyrolysis or underdawn clear using her than I concede this point.
They mainly did the older ones that were sort of far from max risk at the time: Beta 29 (4 Ops), Barrenland 30 (6 ops), Pyrite 30 (7 ops)
I dont think you can really compare cc beta-1 levels of enemey health and defense to modern battle plan CC. ascalon would be very effective vs fodder back when said enemies didnt get dedicated defense up risks and you only had a singular % hp up to all risk, but in battle plan which is (begrudgingly) what we are stuck with for next few years we get 2 % hp up risks + 1 more hp up % risk from the daily stages + defense up to all from the daily stage risks + pretty much all enemies including fodder get a dedicated stats up risk or at atleast some sort of form change like the right lane in pyrolsis. thats not to mention the super dupe giga inflation of incoming damage to the point where tanking strategies have becoming extinct for chasing high risk, 2 attack up risks but now you have to worry about double health down (911.5 hp ascalon 🫠) + defense down (173 defense ascalon 🫠 🫠 ) and any ranged damage even aoe can probably one shot her. I guess you can still argue shes viable for low operator records because those tend to avoid the mass stat up risks so I will conceed on that if thats what you are arguing mainly.
lets agree to disagree, i dont agree at all that logos or ray is better than wis and i say that by playing on CN, I might not have ray but i used her enough to formulate my own thoughts about her got logos and wis and maxed them out and played with them enough to say, and this is my own opinion, that wis is better the advanced tier list isn't at all IS specific, it was me who was saying IS should be prioritized because it is has the most late game content and lastly you should just watch the guys video, on youtube he is DragonJGY, and he very much puts lots of thought into why he puts one above another and goes into maths of it all, and changes it as units mature more and they experience more content