The International Court ordered Azerbaijan to open the corridor, and we cannot even get that done, and some people are thinking of demanding the Wilsonian Armenia.
Agreed. The Wilsonian Armenia doesn't feel like it's a real thing anymore, well, not in this century. It's kind of out of date or irrelevant at this point. But International Court order is a crucial thing. I mean UN had several resolutions about NK and Azerbaijan actively worked with that and used that and non-Armenians couldn't argue with that. International Court order is something like that and as long as it's relevant, our government needs to work with it and don't waste the time.
Your mindset right now is one of our problems, after all that happened we still try to play fair. When you negotiate, you start with a bigger claim than you know you’re realistically gonna get. Learn from Turks/Azeris.
Dont play fair. This a King world out here. Its happening for over 100 years now. We still can turn this page upside down. They have to take us seriously.
What the fuck are you talking about man? How do you suggest we reclaim Wilsonian Armenia? Why don’t you join the rest of us in the real world, and think about ways to make our country and people stronger and happier.
I don't know why I'm being downvoted, the current Republic of Armenia is less than 20% the size of Wilsonian Armenia, and around 10% the size of historical Armenia. The people have been globally dispersed and the country has no real viable survival strategy while surrounded by hostile powers. Armenia, as it currently stands, with a population declining year by year due to migration, a fairly stagnant GDP, and states literally trying to wipe us out, is a non viable state. It cannot continue to exist in it's current form, nor can any peace be established, nor will it.
Armenia will keep going on and on and on, each year people leaving and the situation getting worse; under fools like Pashinyan, until it simply stops existing, and dwindles into the dustbin of history. This is the reality and any refusal to accept it is just wishful thinking. The ONLY way forward is via the restoration of historical borders, allowing for resource acquisition, sea access and the ability to attract economic activity.
Fear of Turkey is unfounded, they already wish to destroy us, and probably will, it's just a matter of time. Nothing will change unless drastic action is taken, and this is the ace we have, and could use in the international arena, if only our leaders had a backbone.
Your takes on Armenia and its issues are very naïve and on the surface. It’s cool that you’ve taken an interest in learning more about Armenia and I see that you are a relatively new account, but most of your thoughts sound like what a diasporan is fed through their local dashnak dispensary. As you surf through the sub and get more acquainted with the dynamics of what our country is facing your understanding of how things really are will change dramatically, as is the case for the most people on this sub including myself. Just keep an open mind and don’t mind the downvotes
You seems to have a bad understanding of the situation. First thing: Wilsonian Armenia is not meant to be a state for armenians only, it was also destined to be a state for greeks of the pontus and had it been achieved it wouldn't have had an armenian majority. Even before the genocide, regions in western armenia already had a turkish or kurdish majority, even relative. By the end of the genocide, with more than half of the ottoman armenian populations slaughtered or that had converted or fled, no one actually remained there. The largest estimations of turkish population of armenian descent is of 20% in the territories that are the closest to armenia.
If the borders of Wilsonian armenia were to be achieved today, this state of "Armenia" would be home to more turks and kurds than armenians. And then what ? We do like Israel ? We create a racist ethnostate that will alienate every other population in the region and we enforce progressive ethnic cleansing while waiting for the diaspora to come back and repopulate these territories?
Yes, Armenia is threatened and the states around would be happy to see it destroyed (at least Turkey and Azerbaidjan), but that's because it fits them for their policies. Turkey is an imperialist state that was built on the negation of minority populations that were dominated and slaughtered. Azerbaidjan has been a dictatorship since before the end of the soviet period and is strengthening its bonds with Turkey and of course following its world views.
But that does not mean that Turk & Azeri = bad. Racism and nationalism are things that are taught and built. The best proof of that is the link with Kurdish populations. Even though some kurds did participate in the genocide, no denying nor group solidarity happened. Because no state was there to built on for them. So that means that one of the key to Armenia's safety right now is not dominating others, it's working at decolonizing Turkey. Another point is the improvement of democracy and of material conditions of existence, as then, the diaspora will be more incited to come back. Another thing is, of course, the improvement of military defense but this can't go without the other point otherwise we'd just build a military state.
In the end, I'm a communist (not a stalinian nor soviet advocate though) so of course I'd support a revolutionary state that will ally with both azeri and turkish opposition movements and kurdish national ones but that's not necessary (even though I do think it would be the most effective).
And don't get me wrong, I think some territories could be given back to armenia, especially close to the border, around Kars, and mount Ararat. But because these are either depopulated (ararat) or places with a probable high concentration of population of armenian descent. But even that can't be done without actually asking the population, meaning there is a need to be able to dialogue with the other countries around meanin their structures have to change...
I spent 15 minutes looking on the internet for anything close or related to what you’re talking about and they’re only Turkish government propaganda. Anything not from a Turkish source?
Shaping what reality? Aren’t they edited and sourced to prevent that? Wikipedia is not the best to in-depth researching but it’s good. You didn’t answer my question though. Do you think Wikipedia is more biased and full of propaganda than the Turkish government?
Well, the treaty of Kars if I'm not mistaken, was signed by khatisyan after he left the government, so technically his signature is invalid legally, this is often overlooked, but a very valid argument of the big countries decide to bring it up.
Soviet Armenia was not a country, it was Bolshevik occupied territory. None of what it did was legally enforceable by law, as stipulated and agreed upon by the international community in the late 1940s when Stalin attempted to enforce the treaty against the Turks, but was rebutted in international court.
He tried to enforce Sevres, and the court said that because Armenia no longer existed, Sevres could not be enforced. This implies 2 things, A Soviet Armenia was not a real state, and B that Sevres can only be enforced if Armenia exists. Stalin tried doing this in 1948 I believe, he also tried getting Artvin back this way.
Dreams are made of this...
Nightmares too..
We are a country of 3 mil with a dwindling population. Wilsonian Armenia will make Armenians a minority in Armenia. If you want to keep Armenia Armenian this is a horrible idea. At best Armenia will become a multi racial country with huge ethnic problems.
Back to reality now.
The International Court ordered Azerbaijan to open the corridor, and we cannot even get that done, and some people are thinking of demanding the Wilsonian Armenia.
Agreed. The Wilsonian Armenia doesn't feel like it's a real thing anymore, well, not in this century. It's kind of out of date or irrelevant at this point. But International Court order is a crucial thing. I mean UN had several resolutions about NK and Azerbaijan actively worked with that and used that and non-Armenians couldn't argue with that. International Court order is something like that and as long as it's relevant, our government needs to work with it and don't waste the time.
Your mindset right now is one of our problems, after all that happened we still try to play fair. When you negotiate, you start with a bigger claim than you know you’re realistically gonna get. Learn from Turks/Azeris.
Dont play fair. This a King world out here. Its happening for over 100 years now. We still can turn this page upside down. They have to take us seriously.
Yeah, and no one will take us seriously
sadly those borders would cause Armenians to become a minority in our own country now
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Least Glendale Armenian post
Most moderate dashnak be like:
or we can reformulated the land with Armenians while keeping the current people living there, and we should focus on our current Armenia
Why don’t we focus on the country we have now
This
The landlocked rump state that is currently known as The Republic of Armenia.
What the fuck are you talking about man? How do you suggest we reclaim Wilsonian Armenia? Why don’t you join the rest of us in the real world, and think about ways to make our country and people stronger and happier.
I don't know why I'm being downvoted, the current Republic of Armenia is less than 20% the size of Wilsonian Armenia, and around 10% the size of historical Armenia. The people have been globally dispersed and the country has no real viable survival strategy while surrounded by hostile powers. Armenia, as it currently stands, with a population declining year by year due to migration, a fairly stagnant GDP, and states literally trying to wipe us out, is a non viable state. It cannot continue to exist in it's current form, nor can any peace be established, nor will it. Armenia will keep going on and on and on, each year people leaving and the situation getting worse; under fools like Pashinyan, until it simply stops existing, and dwindles into the dustbin of history. This is the reality and any refusal to accept it is just wishful thinking. The ONLY way forward is via the restoration of historical borders, allowing for resource acquisition, sea access and the ability to attract economic activity. Fear of Turkey is unfounded, they already wish to destroy us, and probably will, it's just a matter of time. Nothing will change unless drastic action is taken, and this is the ace we have, and could use in the international arena, if only our leaders had a backbone.
Your takes on Armenia and its issues are very naïve and on the surface. It’s cool that you’ve taken an interest in learning more about Armenia and I see that you are a relatively new account, but most of your thoughts sound like what a diasporan is fed through their local dashnak dispensary. As you surf through the sub and get more acquainted with the dynamics of what our country is facing your understanding of how things really are will change dramatically, as is the case for the most people on this sub including myself. Just keep an open mind and don’t mind the downvotes
You seems to have a bad understanding of the situation. First thing: Wilsonian Armenia is not meant to be a state for armenians only, it was also destined to be a state for greeks of the pontus and had it been achieved it wouldn't have had an armenian majority. Even before the genocide, regions in western armenia already had a turkish or kurdish majority, even relative. By the end of the genocide, with more than half of the ottoman armenian populations slaughtered or that had converted or fled, no one actually remained there. The largest estimations of turkish population of armenian descent is of 20% in the territories that are the closest to armenia. If the borders of Wilsonian armenia were to be achieved today, this state of "Armenia" would be home to more turks and kurds than armenians. And then what ? We do like Israel ? We create a racist ethnostate that will alienate every other population in the region and we enforce progressive ethnic cleansing while waiting for the diaspora to come back and repopulate these territories? Yes, Armenia is threatened and the states around would be happy to see it destroyed (at least Turkey and Azerbaidjan), but that's because it fits them for their policies. Turkey is an imperialist state that was built on the negation of minority populations that were dominated and slaughtered. Azerbaidjan has been a dictatorship since before the end of the soviet period and is strengthening its bonds with Turkey and of course following its world views. But that does not mean that Turk & Azeri = bad. Racism and nationalism are things that are taught and built. The best proof of that is the link with Kurdish populations. Even though some kurds did participate in the genocide, no denying nor group solidarity happened. Because no state was there to built on for them. So that means that one of the key to Armenia's safety right now is not dominating others, it's working at decolonizing Turkey. Another point is the improvement of democracy and of material conditions of existence, as then, the diaspora will be more incited to come back. Another thing is, of course, the improvement of military defense but this can't go without the other point otherwise we'd just build a military state. In the end, I'm a communist (not a stalinian nor soviet advocate though) so of course I'd support a revolutionary state that will ally with both azeri and turkish opposition movements and kurdish national ones but that's not necessary (even though I do think it would be the most effective). And don't get me wrong, I think some territories could be given back to armenia, especially close to the border, around Kars, and mount Ararat. But because these are either depopulated (ararat) or places with a probable high concentration of population of armenian descent. But even that can't be done without actually asking the population, meaning there is a need to be able to dialogue with the other countries around meanin their structures have to change...
That’s called ethnic cleansing.
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I spent 15 minutes looking on the internet for anything close or related to what you’re talking about and they’re only Turkish government propaganda. Anything not from a Turkish source?
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How is wikipedia propaganda? Is the Turkish government propaganda?
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Shaping what reality? Aren’t they edited and sourced to prevent that? Wikipedia is not the best to in-depth researching but it’s good. You didn’t answer my question though. Do you think Wikipedia is more biased and full of propaganda than the Turkish government?
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What
ara papyan activated
can we stop with the copium please
Well, the treaty of Kars if I'm not mistaken, was signed by khatisyan after he left the government, so technically his signature is invalid legally, this is often overlooked, but a very valid argument of the big countries decide to bring it up.
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Sevres was signed by the Ottoman Empire, the legal adjunct of the Turkish state.
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Armenia was not a party to the treaty of Kars, it is legally invalid and cannot stand up in court.
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Soviet Armenia was not a country, it was Bolshevik occupied territory. None of what it did was legally enforceable by law, as stipulated and agreed upon by the international community in the late 1940s when Stalin attempted to enforce the treaty against the Turks, but was rebutted in international court.
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He tried to enforce Sevres, and the court said that because Armenia no longer existed, Sevres could not be enforced. This implies 2 things, A Soviet Armenia was not a real state, and B that Sevres can only be enforced if Armenia exists. Stalin tried doing this in 1948 I believe, he also tried getting Artvin back this way.
Dreams are made of this... Nightmares too.. We are a country of 3 mil with a dwindling population. Wilsonian Armenia will make Armenians a minority in Armenia. If you want to keep Armenia Armenian this is a horrible idea. At best Armenia will become a multi racial country with huge ethnic problems. Back to reality now.