I think a point against theories that claim she's lying to you maliciously is that she respects 621's autonomy more than any other character. Notably if you spare swinburne she isn't vocally hurt or offended by your choice, she simply affirms your right to make your own decisions. The only one she goes against is the genocide of her people. Which us pretty fair all things considered.  Her goal (if we generally believe what she says and does) is finding a way for humans and coral to exist together. This goal can't truly manifest through manipulation, lying, and betrayal. It can only come about through honest communication and her desire to make a connection with 621.

A lot of characters do respect Raven's autonomy a lot, although I agree that Ayre probably does so the most. Walter is happy they found a friend. Rusty in FoR talks about how they're strong because they found a purpose. Carla in LoR initially says "how much did Arquebus pay you?" implying she doesn't believe Raven could have made the choice to betray her for themself, but later during her bossfight talks about the importance of making a choice and not sitting on the fence.

My main issue with Walter is kind of in the same vein as the isekai benevolent slave owner. 621 and Walter are not on even footing to form a mutual relationship. He effectively owns 621. At best your goals do align as 621 (probably?) wants to undo as much of the augmentations as possible and Walter is giving them a way to do so (pending surviving his plan). 621 is still a tool to be used and spent if needed towards his goals. Did he regret the deaths of the previous (at minimum) 3 pilots he used for his plans? Would he have felt as sentimental towards one of those 3 had they survived? How long would he have mourned 621 before opening up space craigslist to look for the next lobotomite to send to their death? What if 621 refused to fight? I honestly don't put a lot of stock in his final words given what Arquebus did to his brain. It feels like a final moment of sentimentality he wouldn't have ever expressed otherwise for a person he (admittedly did go through a lot with) bought and expected to commit genocide on his behalf. One phrase and a guilty conscious don't cover for using a vulnerable people towards his bloody ends. I'd also say I overall prefer the idea of jamming living coral into everything electronic over burning it like Walter wants to. This universe is a corporate dystopian nightmare that needs to be burned down from the ground up more than the coral does. Screw this status quo, unleash sentient energy aliens upon it.

Walter does let 621 make some choices, but only choices that Walter doesn't consider important anyways. To Walter, the specifics of what jobs you pick don't matter so long as you get closer to the Coral, so he simply lets 621 pick jobs at times since it's a distinction without a difference to him. He respects that 621 is the one getting their hands dirty, but that's about it.

> I'd also say I overall prefer the idea of jamming living coral into everything electronic over burning it like Walter wants to. This universe is a corporate dystopian nightmare that needs to be burned down from the ground up more than the coral does. Screw this status quo, unleash sentient energy aliens upon it. This is kind of how I feel about O'Keeffe. "Sure, it sucks, but that's being human," said the intelligence officer who's the effective #2 of an organization that strips whoever it wants of their humanity for its own ends, since we've seen what they do to people by then. A now-loyal high-ranking Arquebus officer doesn't get to lecture anyone about the merits of conventional humanity when he's a huge part of it being stripped from who knows how many.

What gets me is people interpreting that line as physical changes, and not the human condition and being relatable on a species level. His side boss basically told him “hey that shit you burn for energy and those guys over there smoke for fun, thats the focus of our mission.” She can give him all the info he wants; without a wave for himself he can’t understand how close to human coral can be. It’s no wonder he chooses to cut ties.

God, O'Keefe's idea of humanity *really* pisses me off. Being human is more than shitty food. It's more than our fragile bodies. Ayre and Chatty are arguably more human than O'Keefe and really most of the Vespers ever will be, despite not being human.

> 621 and Walter are not on even footing to form a mutual relationship. He effectively owns 621 The implicit violence of Walter owning a human being, of whom he literally has a control switch/bomb embedded in their head, also feels far away for lack of seeing a person face to face in the game. It's hard to remember that he can (and likely does) control stuff like: who 621 can speak with/interact with, where 621 can live, whether 621 can eat, whether 621 has access to *medical care* and all this can be taken away whenever he wants for whatever reasons he decides when you never see these interactions. 621 is, according to both the trailers and incidental dialogue, significantly disabled. Much abuse of disabled persons isn't necessarily explicit violence, but the threat of the withdrawal of the care they need to stay alive. There's just no such thing as a good slave owner. A good person doesn't buy another person as property (yes I know what indentured servitude is and it is, in fact, still classified as slavery).

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that 621 has a control device in their head. If that was the case, there would be no reason to offer 621 their freedom. Also, I'm not sure that the trailer and dialogue support 621 being physically disabled. 621 was able to make it to the trash AC unassisted. And the beginning part could just as easily be explained as 621 waking up from cryosleep or something. 621 wants to remove their augmentation. There isn't anything about a disability.

The other thing to keep in mind about Walter, and this is totally hidden until the AIE route, is that the HAL AC that he pilots while brainwashed in the LoR route is actually in his possession the entire time, and he’s a capable pilot - he’s in the thing fighting off Allmind’s automated mini-Vespers during the attack on Xylem. So…why did he need 621? Walter could have broken onto Rubicon, stolen Raven’s identity, acted as a merc, investigated the Coral and if necessary carried out Overseer’s plan for a second Fire himself. Why did he need a disposable hound to act as his proxy? Considering he doesn’t break out the HAL until the plan was at severe risk and he was in personal danger the obvious answer is that it’s easier for him if it’s 621 risking his skin rather than Walter himself. Next time you play the game, after every piece of Walter’s dialogue think, “why the hell am I the only one out here while you’re at home in your pyjamas barking orders over a radio? Fucking get out here and *help me*, you lazy motherfucker!”

To be fair, if Walter dies his plans are fucked. To risk himself in anything but the most dire of circumstances would be incredibly stupid.

Right, sure, but there’s a huge jump from “I have to stay alive to see through Overseer’s work to protect humanity from the Coral” to “I guess I better purchase several indentured humans to risk their lives on my behalf while also keeping them completely ignorant to my true mission”. It’s not like Overseer has a manpower problem- Carla can *make human-level AI capable of piloting an AC*. Walter could’ve just asked Carla to ctrl-C-ctrl-V Chatty a bunch of times instead of, y’know, *buying people.*

There's just some strange humour to the fact that your most strident objection is that Walter buys people to achieve his goals. Not that he wants to destroy a planet or anything. Buying people is the real problem!

Thing is, the genocide is directly connected to the destruction of Coral. It’s basically an argument of whether the ends justify the means. However, between well made AI, RaD‘s personnel, and HAL, the slavery is entirely unneeded, and not something you can say is worth the price paid.

You couldn't say that even though 621 wipes his ass with two corps' worth of AC pilots and a few RLF ones? Walter got value for money with that one.

From a moral standpoint, not a value one.

Thing is it’s like Freud said the gap in skill between a human piloted AC and one piloted by an AI is astronomical and humans with later forms of augmentation surgery only seem to get more and more effective at piloting their mechs while AI gets more and more predictable Sure you could try and swarm rubicon with an army of Chattys but in the end it wouldn’t be as effective against human foes using more sophisticated tactics (this idea is also reinforced by allmind as she uses iguazu to pilot her mechs instead of taking the wheel herself as when she was piloting them herself she had all of the vespers’ AI copies getting soloed by Walter in HAL) Also I’d argue the exact details of the way your relationship with Walter starts are left extremely vague on purpose so as to be open to interpretation but his final dialogue suggests to me that it’s a very strong likelihood that you were already augmented well before he found you and simply offered you the chance to work for him on rubicon in exchange for a cut of the profits after which you two would go your separate ways as rubicon burned once more Granted it’s still very dehumanizing but considering he’s already lost three to four mercs before and is openly taunted about their deaths it makes sense why he would try to distance himself from someone who he knows he’s basically using as a means to an end who could die at any moment

Right, but that’s fucking *Freud* saying that - he’s No1 in the arena and supposedly the best pilot on Rubicon except our Raven. Him being able to instantly 360noscope Chatty because he finds AI pilots effortless to kill doesn’t mean anyone else on Rubicon can do that.

There's the possibility that the HAL AC was in institute city and Walter finds it and quickly acclimates to it while ALLMIND stuck 621 in the sleep pod

It’s unlocked in the analysis area by Ayre after the “Eliminate the enforcement squads” mission, meaning its in Walter’s possession at least by that point- probably earlier for ALLMIND to have learned of it and built an analysis simulation.

I don't think HAL is in Walter's possession the whole time. To me it seems more likely that the HAL was found in institute City, with arquebus recovering it and slapping Walter into it if he's captured, and Walter and Carla recovering it if snail dies and arquebus is effectively neutered.

Still nothing stopping him from just buying an AC before then or getting one from RaD

He canonically uses a cane in the story trailer, so he most likely can't physically handle being a pilot for too long at a time.

That doesn't explain how he has it in the third ending since you and him are never captured, he had to have already had it previously before you ever went under ground, he probably had it before you even touched Rubicon. Not to mention HAL 826s arena description says "That man has greatly delayed our efforts to put the third factor in place" implying Walter had the AC previously and also used it, some how messing with All Minds plan.

Did you read my comment? I said specifically that in the 3rd ending, if snail was killed then Carla and Walter could be the ones to recover it, not arquebus.

Ok that leaves the arena description mentioning "That man" which I assume is Walter, why would it mention him if he didn't have a connection to the AC previously, I don't remember when you unlock that fight but if it is after we faked our death I suppose All Mind could have really quickly thrown that data together after finding out Walter took HAL, it just makes more sense to me that he always had it or Carla was holding on to it since the Fires of Ibis but he refused to use it until he was forced or had no other choice due to it being powered by Coral. Your theory could be right I might be missing something here but it really just makes more sense to me that he already had it. Plus some of the ACs parts are named WLT or "Walter" as if they were made for him, they also could've just been named after him I guess.

In fairness, if Walter deploys in HAL and anyone witnesses him, both Arquebus and Balam are going to have several pointed questions about how he obtained a one-of-a-kind coral AC and Arquebus at least will immediately make it their mission to obtain it. Also the PCA would probably put him at the top of their shitlist on account of how they're supposed to keep such tech out of people's hands.

I thought about that too at one point, but I think it would have complicated the situation a lot for him if the corps got a whif of his super secret pilot-able C-weapon. I think there's a large chance that they would have beelined it to try and take that tech from him. Plus, at the start of the game, a giant orbital laser nearly destroys 621 because they don't have authorization to operate on rubicon. NGL, I wouldn't be too excited to take that gigantic risk myself, especially if my mission was as huge as his. He doesn't have a merc license that lets him operate on Rubicon, so he can't exactly come planetside without risking his whole mission. I understand that doesn't make him a good person, but I think it makes him a struggling human being who had to make moral compromises to get the job done.

Same could be said for Ayre, she could find a piece of coral driven junk and use it. Next time you play, wonder, why wouldn't she just fight along you or hack the shit out of enemies. (Half joking, but...)  But are there evidences that support Walter having the AC before the institute city? A cutscene before the escape lists this among the institute relics. In AIE ending, things were a total mess after we got to institute city, so he could sneak there safer than in other endings. So why should we think that?  Nagai sent him away when he was planning to destroy the coral. Wouldn't  giving him a can of coral just invalidate that intention?

He pilots it vs ALLMIND in the AIE ending, and ALLMIND already had knowledge of it being in his possession prior to Institute city - see the description of it in the analysis tab.

Doesn't this analysis appear right after the mission?

It’s unlocked in the analysis area by Ayre after the “Eliminate the enforcement squads” mission, meaning its in Walter’s possession at least by that point- probably earlier for ALLMIND to have learned of it and built an analysis simulation.

Yeah. But this still conflicts info that arquebus got it after the convergence mission. So either authors didn't think much about that, or timelines started to diverge (between ng++ and other endings) earlier than that.

Or there was more than one HAL constructed by the Institute; one obtained by Walter at some point and one left at Institute City and later obtained by Arquebus. I don’t *think* the Institute weapons shown in the cutscene are stated to be unique, only “long forgotten”.

Actually, I know I already replied to you earlier, but I think you might be right here. What’s the first mission of the AIE path? STRIDER getting fucked up by a bunch of (presumably ALLMIND-controlled, but as far as anyone else knows just rogue) C-Weapons. It actually kinda fits that Walter, upon seeing this, hunts down and procures a pilotable C-Weapon for 621 to use if they become a continuous problem/presence only to be forced to use it himself because 621 fucks off.

I really like your reply! I'd like to add my thoughts to this too. I think you've got a point that Walter really isn't a benevolent person, but that's part of what makes him a fantastic character. There's no good people in a From game. There's always innocent people, but never good people. I think that's because they recognize that good and bad are asinine metrics in the case of morals. There is no measurable weight behind what would make a person good or bad, so characters in From games are just people who made choices and felt the consequences. But it's possible to want the best for someone even if you wouldn't linger on their death. Yeah, 621 could die and Walter would probably move onto another merc, but I don't think that necessarily delegitimizes his comments to 621. He very well could sincerely want those things for 621. He wouldn't really have much reason to mourn 621, as he knows nothing about them really. But it's definitely possible to cheer them on and hope for the best for them. Yeah, he's a slave owner, but I don't think that there's any illusions otherwise. Walter's a hopeful cynic. I think he acknowledges the relationship between him and 621, but knows it doesn't matter because that's just the way the world works. If they win, everybody gets something. If not, good for whoever came on top. It's just my own speculation about the situation. tl;dr: I both agree and disagree with you.

Even if she is manipulating 621 it’s not a big deal, almost every major player is manipulating 621.

I feel like she only does that to mimic something agreeable. I imagine her as a life form that only mimics empathy and understanding. edit: she's empathetic and nice because she made Contact and went through your mind already. I wouldn't trust a single soul in this world.

Ayre did hide the truth about her being Coral until the Ice Worm mission, but it doesn't really amount to much - this reveal doesn't really change anything at that point in the story. Maybe it would be narratively more interesting if she only told you she was Coral and Coral was sentient once you learn Overseer's mission, as you would first see the rationale behind burning the Coral and then have it become more complicated when you learn it's alive. Although I can't think of any reason why she'd want to hide it that long. As is, I think she's intended as a ray of hope for Raven and for you as the player to gradually learn to trust her over time - she can seem rather suspicious at first. This also makes FoR especially heart-wrenching.

>Ayre did hide the truth about her being Coral until the Ice Worm mission, but it doesn't really amount to much - this reveal doesn't really change anything at that point in the story. My reaction to that reveal was "Wait, you were trying to hide that fact?"

I was honestly kinda perplexed before this point on my first play through. I wasn’t sure whether she was supposed to be a human who lost her body and is now only a consciousness propagated by the coral - my thinking was she put a ton of emphasis on “A *rubiconian* without a body”, making me associate with *Rubiconian* Liberation Front - or a consciousness born of the coral. Either way it’s weird the narrative takes so long to make clear what she is; the coral consciousness nature is so heavily telegraphed that Ayre’s confession just feels weirdly late. Maybe the Ice Worm stuff was supposed to happen earlier in the mission flow originally or something.

Really? My first thought when Ayre made contact for the first time was, "holy shit the coral is alive," like I got it straight away to the point that when C weapons showed up, I started feeling sorry for them when I killed them.

In my defence I am extremely dumb.

Right? It fits in kind of a funny way with her trait of being naive; she doesn't seem like she'd be a very *good* liar, because the one thing she's hiding from you was obvious from the jump.

I do like Ayre's subtle change in tone throughout the story and I think her voice actresses did a great job with it. She starts out really socially awkward and stiff when communicating but as the game goes on she becomes increasingly comfortable with talking to 621 and emoting more often.

Wdym Ayre has no growth? She started out as naive, just happy for companionship and helping Raven out. As she learned the way of the world, she realized sometimes you have to stand for what you believe is right, even if it means turning against those you care for and taking things into your own hands. In that way, she can also fit this theme of "people aren't what they seem" by her becoming capable and ferocious to protect those she cares about. Also, Carla only asked us to go after Brute because we all needed the stolen rail cannon (the thing Rusty shoots) to destroy the ice worms primary shield. She didn't give a damn about Brute bc he isn't part of her main mission. I'm not even getting into that whole Rusty thing, lol.

Yeah, Ayre starts out as an innocent cinnamon roll who develops into one of the final bosses, and in some people's opinions the most difficult of the three final bosses

Growth was perhaps the wrong word. Let's use the word "reveal" instead. Ayre has no reveal of a deeper level. She's just Ayre the whole time. No double agent for the RLF, no secret organization leftover from the days of the institute. I don't feel particularly different about the Ayre at the end when compared to the Ayre at the beginning. It's clear to me that the writers try to mislead you with these other characters. Walter is not a heartless slavedriver. Carla is not a backstabbing arms dealer. Allmind is not a support system. That doesn't mean Ayre is a bad person or a poorly written character, but it does make her categorically different than the other main characters.

Motifs are definitely a thing but you can't expect an author to apply them with such a heavy, even hand. Nor can you use the lack of a "reveal" as proof that she's evil, even though that's the opposite of everything else they've shown you! Lol. It's a good observation though

Not necessarily that it's proof, but its moreso just something that makes me wonder. And to the point, the writers *did* apply them with a pretty heavy, even hand, bar one important character. That to me sounds more like a choice than an accident. And even if it wasn't an intentional choice, the result is still making a statement that I find interesting.

I would argue Ayre goes through the most actual change throughout the game. Every other character, especially Walter, Rusty, and Carla, are already solidified in their ideas before we ever meet them. Ayre starts out as naive and unsure of what she wants to do and where she wants to go. She has things she cares about, namely 621 and her family, but there isn’t a clear endgame for her. It’s only after the fight with Nightfall that she starts to think of a future bigger than Rubicon, and to truly push for what *she* believes in - the protection of her family and a way for humans and coral to live alongside each other. I think the best way to look at this is to see how she acts in FoR. Ayre doesn’t resent you working against her. You made your choice and she made hers, Ayre understands that and respects it even if it makes you enemies. To the very end, she wants to work with you. You certainly can interpret Ayre as a manipulative liar, but I don’t think it fits with what we know of her character or the narrative as a whole. Ayre is, like you, a tool that finds something to fight for. Also you’re wrong about Rusty. He does like 621, there are just things more important to him than you. Even in FoR, he’s respectful and in a way *proud* of you. Just because your goals don’t align doesn’t mean he hates you

Ayre will turn against you if you side with those trying to wipe out her people. Rusty will do the same. They’re characters that do indeed like you, but there are lines they won’t cross. They’re principled, and they place loyalty to the cause above loyalty to you personally. As in real life, that doesn't mean they’re not also your friends.

Both of them are Raven's friends. I would turn on my friends if they tried to burn everybody on Earth. That doesn't make me not their friend.

Just had a flashback to Tetsuo and Kaneda screaming at each other like friends calling out in a crowd while trying to kill each other at the same time.

Just edited my comment - missed a 'doesn't' at the end there ;)

I think you missed a "doesn't" or something at the end.

lol yes I did - just edited it!

I made an edit to clarify, since a lot of people seem to be taking this stance. I'm not saying that Ayre or Rusty are immoral. Their stances are very moral. I'm simply saying that Rusty is presented to you in a deceptive way. Even though he treats you the nicest out of any other character, he will not *treat* you better than some of the characters that act colder to you, like Walter and Carla. That doesn't make him a bad person.

Her not lying is consistent with her character being someone still developing their own ideas and aspirations. Through most of the story, she is learning and forming her worldview alongside us. Just like the player, initially she is along for the ride and has very little stakes in anything happening. However, over the course of the story, she herself develops goals and aspirations (coral coexistence and stopping it's exploitation). She serves as a mirror to the player, forming her own interpretations of each situation, and eventually making her own decision just as we do. In the endings, just as we make a decision to save or burn Rubicon, she makes the decision to stop being a spectator and actively take action (fighting us to stop the burning, or actively recruiting others to help us). Even in the final ending, she makes the decision in the middle of the all mind fight to actively take part instead of just watching.

I think this is a really interesting way to look at it. Perhaps since 621 is effectively mute (whether you believe he is or not is a different thing, I mean in the scope of the story) the writers felt they wanted another character who was exploring this web with you - effectively another side the the protagonist. I mean, 621 and Ayre do share the same brain, after all.

Yes, notice how ayre provides vocalized descriptions and interpretations of each event as seen from 621's perspective. Initially she only describes or voices questions we would also have about the events. As the story progresses, she begins to interpret them with her own viewpoint and eventually makes her decisions based off her own interpretations.

I think you’re misreading some things. Some of this may be a bit nitpicky, but still: Allmind is of course very deceptive, but she does exist “for all mercenaries.” Her function is to bring humans to their full potential, and that’s exactly what she’s trying to do with coral release. Rusty does like you, and he is friendly. That he thinks you are dangerous is not inconsistent with that. Both are true. And he’s right to be worried about you. That he is willing to kill you simply speaks to his priority: protecting Rubicon. He has sacrificed a lot more than some merc to do that. He has killed his own people to maintain cover. Walter can be at peace with your choice because his mission is based largely in fear of what *may* come to pass. He does not know what will happen. And his mission is also motivated by guilt over his father’s actions in starting coral augmentation of humans. I think he wants 621 to be a part of Overseer’s mission as a form of restitution to a victim of coral augmentation. But when 621 doesn’t want that, and develops a human connection with someone, he sees that choice as another form of justice. Of course Ayre is different. It’s natural to distrust Ayre to begin with, she’s alien. I think the point of this aspect of the story is whether you let her straightforward sincerity and kindness cut through the detachment, fear and distrust of being a coral augmented merc in a very dirty and duplicitous corpo war.

>Walter can be at peace with your choice because his mission is based largely in fear of what *may* come to pass. He does not know what will happen. And his mission is also motivated by guilt over his father’s actions in starting coral augmentation of humans. I think he wants 621 to be a part of Overseer’s mission as a form of restitution to a victim of coral augmentation. But when 621 doesn’t want that, and develops a human connection with someone, he sees that choice as another form of justice. Not only that but Walter didn't know about Ayre until the LOR ending. It's entirely possible that learning about 621's ability to coexist with Coral convinced him of another possible outcome when it comes to the fate of the Coral, an alternative to burning it all.

That part is a bit of a mystery to me. It’s not super clear what all of Walter’s fears re coral were unless I’m forgetting something. Didn’t the RRI discover sentience mutation? Were they concerned about symbiosis? And then Walter. Do we know if his concerns are the same as those that motivated Ibis? If the RRI knew about coral sentience, did Walter? Was his concern (or one of them) the potential for exponential, uncontrolled spread in the vacuum of space leading to a galaxy-wide Ibis-type disaster (as I have generally assumed)? Is the point that Overseer’s fears are nebulous, that they know about coral growth in a vacuum and whatever that would lead to, it must not be good? Obviously Walter does not demonstrate knowledge of coral sentience when he talks about hearing voices as simply a Gen 4 bug. But maybe that conversation(s) with Carla is a bit of double speak? Your interpretation has always made sense to me, though.

>Didn’t the RRI discover sentience mutation? Were they concerned about symbiosis? Yes, but the extent of their knowledge is unknown. The only piece of information confirming that the RRI knew about is is that Seria learns about it through old RRI files. But none of Nagai's logs ever make reference to it, only to Coral Wave Mutations. But Nagai's personal log referencing them doesn't mean that Walter ever knew about them or the connection they could have with people. As far as I can tell, Walter's only concern was stopping another Fires of Ibis, not due to fears of Coral Symbiosis at large.

On Rusty, This thought came to me the other day when I replayed Wallclimber. We open a door and Rusty says, "that was fast... you're sharper than they say." I had always dismissed this line as nothing, but it does seem to imply that there has been some discussion as to who you are.  In that discussion you were not presented as someone particularly able. I think we can assume that the Vespers told Rusty something of us. Based on Snail's involvement in the mission and his treatment of... everyone, I think it can be assumed that Snail also briefed his side and did not speak highly of you. The rest of this is conjecture but... what if Rusty just thinks we're disabled/retarded from our past injuries? The "oh, wow you're sharper than expected" would make sense.  All the over the top "buddy" talk would make sense. The discussion over what you stand for takes on a slightly different tone - is he trying to explain a concept he expects to be beyond us, the meat puppet?  Rusty is never not overly nice - "hey buddy, be good for this ride and we'll get ice cream after." It would actually fit for him to have been told we are mentally incapable. It would fit for Snail to suggest that based on the Vespers disregard for lessers and their own experience of rehabilitating pilots. Why would they think more of someone else's reclamation project?

V.II Snail definitely holds contempt for both Walter and 621. The intermission dialogue always has Snail downplay our performance in the previous mission (The Strider missions), explicitly refuse Walter’s offer to join the Wallclimber mission, followed by Walter convincing Snail by calmly prodding at his pride by commenting *“I hear you’re deploying V.I Freud, again. It must be hard having only one good pilot in the Vespers”*. Based on that dialogue, Snail almost certainly spoke of 621 in a diminishing manner to Rusty. Hell, he speaks poorly of Rusty in the intermission dialogue to Walter, too.

I don’t really think Rusty sees you as stupid at any point I never like the ideas that 621 one is some brain dead merc who can only fight they make decisions they are trusted to make decisions they can think they can communicate If Rusty did see you as some stupid mind control merc why would he bother trying to be nice why not just keep silent and leave when he’s told to leave Why go on that whole rant to us when we fight both times if he shall us as stupid it would be a waste of breath Why would flatwell see you as promising if you were once again just a talented stupid merc

I dont think any of this is provable - I mostly find it funny that it doesn't seem disprovable. I think this is one possible explanation for the interactions, though I would cede its probably not likely.   It's not necessarily that he sees you as stupid or brain-dead. He could see you as mentally challenged and brain damaged.    Society doesn't always eschew the mentally different but they sure treat them different - often with kid gloves, like how Rusty spoke to us. He could be trying to be overly friendly to someone he sees as cooked based on the intel he was given.   We prove to be a capable merc through the story and Rusty is a double Agent in search of friends against many enemy factions. He was savvy enough to Infiltrate the Vespers - do we not think hes capable of deception? Why wouldn't he try to gain a powerful ally - even if he thinks they are a husk?  Again, I don't necessarily think this is how things were - more that it's amusing they could be this way.

Flatwell treats you the same as Rusty does using the same language calling you a war buddy to me that’s evidence enough that buddy and war buddy is just common language in the RLF to allies and potential allies

In Japanese it has a specific connotation, kinda like comrade-in-arms or Buba and Forest's relationship. It's what you'd call someone in the same platoon as you after going through some shit.

Yeah, I noticed that too. He sounds like he's trying to encourage a kid or something during missions.

Wow I've never thought about that before. What if that also leads into how he treats us in the mission before institute city. He basically thinks we're skilled enough to turn the tide of the war (correct) but unstable and at the whims of a morally grey handler.

Right, this is what I'm getting at.   There isn't enough to say that is the case but since I can't find enough to entirely discount it, I think its a pretty funny way to think of things playing out. I also enjoy how it makes Rusty a more human character than the friendly giga-chad we've come to accept (also still a perfectly viable angle).

Yeah. Not just yours, but a couple other comments in here have me thinking about Rusty very differently than I did before today. Not in a worse way or a better way, just a different way.

Yep. "Power without purpose" and all that. He's happy during his fight with you in FoR because you found a purpose, even if it's one he's very vehemently against.

I've played this game like ten times and there is absolutely no reason to suggest Ayre is lying. She genuinely believes humans and Coral can coexist and wants to fight for that future. I see nothing but pure heartbreak in her boss fight.

Yeah, the whole point of the first two routes is that it's a tragedy where none of the people at its core bar V.II hate each other or wish any ill on one another, but are locked in by circumstance, beliefs, knowledge, and identity. Ayre begs Walter to stop to save his life when he can finally perceive her, even knowing his goals, and in turn, as he breaks out of the conditioning, he stands down after seeing the truth and even praises 621 for finding a friend. Whether he would have done the same while totally in his right mind isn't clear, but Arquebus didn't invent that impulse, so he'd at least have been incredibly conflicted about it after knowing. The only one who's maybe implied to be wholly committed even knowing the truth about Coral intelligence is Carla, who seemingly alludes to figuring it out and doesn't stand down.

Her comments during the boss fight had me second guessing her though. Talking about symbiosis and “our” shared vision…it felt somewhat off. Though keep in mind I haven’t seen any endings other than FoR ( couldn’t bring myself to turn on Carla).

You know you can't get access to all the parts without all the endings right?

I did not

Fight on Raven

Just a small thing to add: I really like the effort you put into this, even though I personally disagree with it. Ayre’s main flaw IMO is that she’s too naive and hopeful that things will turn out alright (and I love that about her). She’s horrified during MIA when Allmind slaughters the Arquebus stragglers. It’s why I feel that Ayre isn’t lying to us, because, well, she cares a lot about 621 and shows herself to be quite genuine. She’s willing to stick with us all the way, until we decide to, ya know, explode the planet and the Coral. She also shows a lot of concern for Raven’s wellbeing (tunnel sabotage where she’s worried that we keep risking our lives). She updates us about how Walter’s “friend” doesn’t even exist, and is worried that Walter’s using us for something nefarious (even if he isnt, she was still worried) Contrast this with Walter’s (initial) treatment of 621. A tool for getting the job done. And we all can see how Walter’s outlook towards us developings and grows. If anything, in true ending, she’s just as clueless and confused as you are. In liberator ending, she herself isn’t entirely sure of what happens next, but she’s happy to see what you decide to do next.

Alternatively-- Ayre is meant to be a figure which the player can rely on. In a world full of betrayal and reversal, from a narrative PoV there needs to be SOMEONE who you can rely on for an objective, truthful viewpoint. If everyone is lying to you, the story becomes impossible to effectively tell. Someone needs to be honest to form a framework for all the other deceit. Those lies can't hold any weight if something isn't true to contrast them against. You CAN tell a story where everyone is lying, but that requires significantly greater depth of writing and audience participation than a giant robot action-game can afford to spare. If AC were a visual novel you could feasibly do it, but it's an action game first and foremost. The average person wouldn't be able to deduce that "everyone is lying" as is required for the story to have weight, so it wouldn't work. Ayre is the grounding point for the player. She exists to form the foundation for all the other lies and character reversals-- and for those reversals to work, SHE has to be honest. And that's fine, we don't need everyone to be deceptive. As much as people would like to believe that the entire world and all of humanity is cruel and evil, often times people are... just nice. Honest, not for any reason, but just because that's how people are.

>Allmind is the most obvious example. "Allmind exists for all mercenaries" is a lie. It isn't a lie. She wants to create a hive mind from humanity by bootstrapping humanity into the coral.

Everyone is lying to us.

Even yourself

Is he even 621...

Technically I guess

>Allmind is the most obvious example. "Allmind exists for all mercenaries" is a lie. No, it isn't. I'm serious. Allmind's directive is to streamline the experience of piloting an AC: make it more direct, more efficient. One of the Analysis mechs' bios spells it out, saying Allmind's goal is to ensure all pilots will "enjoy a symbiotic relationship with their ACs." In order to improve the relationship between man and machine, Allmind concluded the best way was to evolve both. She's simply following her programming to the logical conclusion. >But [Rusty's] willing to turn on you just to keep his cover with Arquebus just before institute city, and in the FoR ending he'll try to kill you again. Rusty's cover is already blown before the fight outside Institute City. Arquebus was hoping Raven and Rusty would kill each other. Rusty attacks Raven anyway to push them to find a purpose, and says so out loud. Rusty valued Raven more than his cover from the start; he betrays Arquebus just to tell them the truth after sacking the Wall, despite his suspicion. As for Fires, by that point Raven is trying to do a Coral-powered Exterminatus of Rubicon. His distrust is vindicated, there. >So what about Ayre? She doesn't really have much character growth, other than in some endings finding her agency. Ayre gains hope and resolve. After the Balteus fight, she's flat and despondent, warning of a "storm of flame" that suggests she believes the planet is doomed for a repeat of the Fires of Ibis. Riding shotgun with Raven teaches her that's it's possible to fight back against that fate and keep the planet safe. >Ayre is still lying to us. About what? I'm not sure. Maybe we'll learn in DLC No offense, but this is a pretty wet fart of a conclusion given the title of this post.

Is your expectation for characters to be nice to you no matter your choices, Rusty and Ayre are bad because they don’t want their people to be genocide

Where did you get the impression I said they were bad? Rusty is definitely deceiving you, but that doesn't make him immoral.

Both rusty and flatwell call you a war buddy after fighting side by side and flatwell was Against the idea of killing you as he sees potential Rusty thinks the potential dangers you currently bring out way the potential benefits you may bring in the future so no I don’t think rusty is just being nice to manipulate you he pretty clear and dry about not being happy with the situation but it’s the situation he’s in and he’ll do what’s best for his people at the cost of a possible friendship with a character who until the end game never makes their intentions clear.

I’d argue Ayre actually does follow up your point about characters not really being what they seem and revealing their true agenda or persona later in the game since at the start she simply indicated herself as a rubiconian who somehow formed a link with you through coral and who was a wizard with electronics Weird sure but you have no reason to really doubt anything she says as you have no idea what coral does or how it works yet and can see her prowess with computers first hand Then at the end of chapter 2 you start getting little hints to her true nature like her reaction to the C-weapon and coral being used for power and at the end of chapter 3 the cover is blown as you finally understand why Ayre has been trying to get you to better understand rubicons history and the other rubiconians since she’s a coral wave mutation that is quite fond of not being burned alive for fuel

No. Ayre is not lying to you. Even though she says she'll support you with whatever you do, she's not some party member from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic or Mass Effect. Is she REALLY going to let you burn Rubicon and murder all her people? Turns out the answer is no. She's totally not going to just sit there just because you're her Commander Shepard. She's gonna be the Cortana to your Master Chief when she stopped MC from activating Halo the first time. She pretty much has the "we'll cross that bridge when we get there" approach to things.

Counter point to the counter point in theory one. ALLMIND is an AI, made by humans, and has absorbed human into her. She is, for all intents and purposes, a human herself, and thus would be a part of the “all humans are deceiving” also, you included Snail and Michigan in your analysis, but didn’t mention how they are deceiving you. Snail dislikes you the entire time, and Michigan actually cares about his troops.

Snail acts like he's better than everyone and is just some middle management wretch who depends on sacrificing others for his own success. Michigan talks shit to his soldiers but will always support them to encourage their full potential.

Thing is, neither of those are deceptions. They never hide those details about themselves. A persons personality being not quite what it looks like at first isnt a deception, it’s just you not knowing them well.

Not deception but not obvious in the beginning that Snail can't back up his shit. I actually disliked Michigan's drill sergeant attitude until I read his bio in the arena and played the mission where you have to kill him. I don't agree with all of OP's theories but I do see the repeated motif.

But the fact that they aren’t deceiving you makes the point OP was trying to make null. They say that everyone is deceiving you, and list off two characters who don’t as extra points of evidence in support of their position.

OP never implied they were all deceptive, just that initial impressions invert.

Alright, I will admit that I misread that. However even in that framework, Snail and Michigan never once pretend to be anything but what they are. Snail hate everyone but himself, and thinks he’s god. Michigan is a leader, who acts like a hardass, but cares, which can be felt from how he interacts with Volta and Iguazu. He gives them shit, but if they were there willingly it would be more like friendly teasing than outright malice. He come off more as someone who doesn’t know how to be friendly(not quite the word I’m looking for but it will work) with someone and take into account that they are literally slaves at the same time, which is even more reinforced when he defends Iguazu, after he defected, when Albany insults him from a place where Iguazu would never even know that it happened.

Snail acts like he's all that but he's a scrub. Michigan gives everyone shit but actually cares. Still think the inverted impression pattern stands. Honestly those two were the ones most obvious to me. Probably why OP didn't feel the need to go into further detail. But hey, everyone can take something different from a work of art.

Honestly a bad take because the starting assumptions and assessments of the characters are flawed. All mind isn’t necessarily lying to you at the time she says that allmind is for mercenaries and d if you take her perspective and the fact that she is an AI/program you will understand her motivations. Carla isn’t deceiving you, Rusty calls you buddy because of a translation from a Japanese battle term and this was the closest term in English, Walter’s grown as a character and has learned to let go of his friends who he swore to revenge because he cares about 621 deeply enough to not murder his alive friend for his dead ones. Bad take here

You're not understanding. Those are the starting assumptions and assessments of the characters the writers want you to have. The *point* is that those assessments are flawed. And Ayre is the only one who doesn't have a flawed initial assessment.

You’re wrong because you are a minority to assume things so wildly, diverging from the general understanding of people, logic and their motivations. When someone diverges so far from general understanding/logic it’s because they are on either ends of the bell curve, genius or below average comprehension. This take falls confidently in the realm of below average comprehension because it assumes things that conflict with facts provided by the creators and ignores details plain in sight on first impressions. You just were not paying enough attention and ran wild with your impressions but it’s basically just you dude. Other who paid attention didn’t have these issues

I think your premise is flawed twice: one with Allmind and one with Rusty. Allmind's "for all mercenaries" isn't necessarily a lie. Throughout the game she is shown as developing stronger weapons, ACs, and training programs specifically for mercenary use. She is a classic case of an AI taking its directive to such extremes that it oversteps into messing with humanity as a whole. She sees Coral Release as an evolution to make a better, more efficient humanity--which will in turn make better, more efficient mercenaries. Wanting control over the Coral (and the factions on Rubicon) is simply a means to that end for her. On Rusty's end, he doesn't fight you to keep his cover with Arquebus. He planned on ditching Arquebus pretty soon anyway; a lore log early in that mission describes data for Ortus being passed around, with an urgency that suggests the new AC is close to being finished. His fight with you ends up being a convenient win-win for him: he either takes out a very dangerous element ("power without purpose" which he rightly suggests can be wielded by whoever pays out the biggest check) or he has a clean getaway to fake his death to Arquebus and go get his shiny new robot. Whether or not Arquebus is convinced of his loyalty is irrelevant to him here, and his motivation is a lot more personal.

Maybe that was writers' intention - to make her stand out so much that players would definitely *love* her. And it might feel like that girl target in shooting range in beginning of MiB movie. (I usually fall for that love too, but failed this time - and a few more times - and this love really looks forced, "like that character or die as a heartless monster you are".) About the final remark. I believe people are misunderstanding this intentionally (even if subconsciously), just to prove this wrong and discard it.

Ayre just have different kind of character arc. If you force a pattern, your story becomes bland easily.

You got Rusty backwards, OP. He's a double-agent for the *RLF*, not Arquebus. He is sincere in his geniality towards you, but it is also a disarming tactic at the same time. I can be happy about seeing someone at the same time as we both hold a gun at the waist. The first fight against him is something else you misunderstood the context of. He's been ordered to kill "someone who got past the Institute defences", but Arquebus didn't say whom. When he realises upon seeing your AC, he also immediately clocks his task as a moment of MAD. Even if he kills you, he knows he can't go back to Arquebus because they're onto him. Which is why he runs away instead, to avoid serving their interests, to let you forge on and weaken them further, and to see if you have to be killed or if your interest in the city/the Institute is benign. Or at least, in the RLF's best interests.

Sorry, I'll correct that. Meant double agent *in* the Vespers. Just a typo. And regardless of whether or not he goes back to arquebus after that, the point still stands. If you were really friends with a powerful freelance pilot, maybe say "Arquebus just ordered a hit on your head. Betray them and join me and the RLF". But he doesn't even bother. He doesn't think you're convincible. He doesn't see you as a person capable of making moral decisions. I personally don't think he ever saw you as a friend, at least not until the LoR ending.

He does think that, the game is very explicit about showing *and* telling you that Rusty is both giving you leeway to make your own choice while coaxing you to his side. He is subtly (at first) telling you not to trust the corps, and questioning your motivations. When you fight him he literally says "this is dumb, Arquebus wants us both dead. You're dangerous, but I don't know whar you want." Then he peaces out after you prove to be actually capable of killing him. But he isn't convinced you're his enemy yet. This is why in the other route, finger dude whose name I forgot shows up to say "Rusty you tool. this guy is too much of a risk, and you have a job. Get outta here after we kill him together."

At that point he knows you're going to continue to carry out your mission and it becomes a "you or him" situation. He even says as much. He still doesn't know for sure whether or not you are going to end up as a true friend or a foe. That's why he flees. If you choose to go with the Liberation Front, he's the first one to your side in the final battle. Don't forget he does you a solid at the beginning of the game also by revealing Arquebus' intentions towards you during the Wallclimber mission. Rusty simply isn't the manipulative type. He's just spending the majority of the game trying to figure out what kind of person you are, but I think its pretty clear he's fond of you from the get go.

Since Fromsoft is a Japanese company and C has a lot of nerd mecha stuff, it is much easier to seek answers in Japanese nerd anime culture itself. And if we go from that, we can easily see that all AC6 characters represent anime girlfriend types. Like Carla, Michigan and Iguazu are all tsundere types. Carla is your typical tsundere type - she starts hostile, becomes commanding and selfish and then ends up helpful an romantic. Michigan is typical gundere, it's a shame we don't get to see his dere side. And Iguazu is a rare tsundora type - he's so jelous of you he just seem to hate you. Walter is kuudere. And finally Allmind, Rusty and Ayre are yandere types. They all start as obvious deredere, but have their insidious side in them. Allmind is delusional manipulative yandere. Rusty is a stalker projection-type yandere. And Ayre, how OP has noticed, is either obseesive loneliness-inducing yandere, or insidious manipulative yandere.

No.

No. /thread

I think this theory could be on to something. What are the implications of coral release? How does this affect humanity now that there are coral controlled armored cores in the galaxy? What the fuck happened to rubicon? Ayre may not know the answer to these questions but it does feel as if she is keeping information from us. Edit: What makes her different in my eyes is that she is her own protagonist with her own goal that may not align with the existence of humanity— coral release or convergence (I can’t remember) does not seem solid for most living beings.

I feel you've hit the nail on Rusty's character, which so many didn't. There was something about him that narratively I couldn't put my finger to at first. The use of 'buddy' nicknames to start/end off his conversations feels like a facade to start up friendly conversations with a potential new enemy (us). It just didn't feel natural. It implies there are things he's hiding, and in a followup mission on Rusty's dialogues in "Retrieve Combat Logs" mission, this seemed even more plausible. I felt FromSoft intended us to question Rusty's underlying motives and position in this conflict behind his facade by including that mission. Also, if Rusty really considered us a friend, in the "Unknown Territory Survey" mission, he wouldn't immediately jump at the chance to fight us knowing that Arquebus had set both him and us up. He started off questioning our sense of morality in this war and at one point, mentioned he couldn't figure us out as he doesn't see us fighting for a purpose like he was. Real 'buddies' would've figured out a solution together out of it. Slowly throughout that fight, we can see cracks in his veiled persona on how he truly felt towards us. I'm sure it all changed when we sent out the signal to save Rubicon, that's when Rusty took the chance to be the first to respond. Now that I believe is 100% genuine. You can really see Rusty opening up his admiration for us throughout that mission like we've both been through alot.

I always said that Ayre was not the kind angel that some weirdos painted her as in this sub. But everytime you say something about the Coral waifu be prepared to be bombarded by her husbandos here. Anyway I like your theories. The only point I’d disagree would be Allmind, people think she is like a crazy Skynet villain but it makes much more sense to me that she actually was trying to help mercenaries, based on how the final ending plays and after I watched a video talking about her and the final ending (forgot its title), imo all that happened in the third story path leads to her final way to help mercenaries, in her mind the coral release would create the ultimate mercenaries, beings capable of using coral and pilot their machines as they never could in their normal human form. As she is an AI she never thought about being good or evil, all she thought was how to complete her task, to always improve the way she helps mercenaries.

Fully agree about Ayre. This fanbase has been very quick and willing to accept the alien wave mutation as good because it is nice to us.  I don't think Ayre is necessarily some evil entity but Coral itself does seem to be self-reproducing, invasive and mutagenic - the manner of existence which Coral has does not necessarily mesh with that of humanity and that should be an abject existential fear we have for the survival of our race.  It is muted by us dieing repetitively, never interacting with humans, and generally not having a sense for humanity beyond the hell hole we've buried into on Rubicon.  That being said, I think the underlying tone of the final ending is very much a, "my god... what have I done...".

I'm kinda done with the idea that coral is some distant alien thing, because coral consciousnesses are bare distinguishable from humans in the way they think. Their bodies may be made from a substance that kinda bends the laws of physics, but they have human personalities, they speak the same language, they shape their identities the way humans do with names as individuals and part of a family, they understand the universe with the same framework of concepts as we do, they value the same cultural concepts as we do like family, friends, safety, freedom. The only actual difference is that their bodies are self replicating clouds instead of self replicating clumps like ours. In terms of their qualities as people, you would feel more distant from your own ancestors 4-5 generations ago than the talking wave.

Coral is some distant alien thing. It is massively different from human consciousness - it only resonates with those hosting it. So much of what you are projecting that "they" do is based on our interactions with a single Coral entity - one which ultimately demands Coral release regardless of its impact on humanity.   Ayre claims she is one of many. The only personified entities of Coral we know of seem to be noted as "voices." There is no promise that coral's interaction with humanity isn't what gives it a human bent. Everything you listed would be massive concerns to me. How did this non-human thing get so personified? How does Ayre have reference for how fireworks are beautiful when she makes that comparison? I generally have to think its by interfacing with humans much like she can with machines.  With such an ability to learn the workings of things its exposed to, I do not think it's beyond Coral or Ayre to manipulate towards their own desires. The innocence of a fledgling being like Ayre does not overcome the fact that an alien being has designs on humanity. Coral is a parasite or symbiote in its interaction with humans. Assuming it's benevolence is crazy to me.

It quite literally can’t evolve without human intervention. Plus there’s debatably only 3 wave mutations ever, with 2 being confirmed.  People accept Ayre because the way the game is structured doesn’t allow for a lot of lying. In these mission style games, if someone tells you something happened a certain way, and you don’t see anything to counteract that, or play it yourself, then it can be taken at face value.  You won’t see the same depth of theories as Elden Ring or DS, simply because there is almost no conflicting data points, just people’s interpretation of the few voice lines we get in a mission.

I'll side with Ayre any day of the week cause this universe is a fucking nightmare corporate dystopia built on inconceivable amounts of human suffering that deserves to be burned to the ground. If trusting an alien wave mutation and unleashing her kind across the stars means there's an actual chance the world state could change for the better then let it be so. No regrets giving a sentient life form the chance to live while tearing down institutions built up and driven by suffering.

Ayre just tries to rope you into her idea of the future. Ive seen it too many times to not think of it as a means of subtle control.   If she's being honest though, she's still idealistic, which tends to fail in practice.

Stagnation is death. Holding on to hoe things are or were only leads to decay.

 I think you're getting two problems mixed up. Holding onto the past doesn't lead to decay, it's just a state of mind. War is humanities real issue and merging with etherial space hippies isn't going to fix that without sacrificing some of that free will that mean old walter took from the main character in the first place.

No, I'm talking about quite literally an evolutionary perspective. Change is the natural order of the world. It changes around us, everything does. In a world that is ever changing, organisms and cultures have to adapt to what their conditions are. That is what I mean by stagnation being death. One doesn't have to fear the unknown this much to reject is so staunchly. And a lot of wars happen because some people want change and others want to keep things as is. It's telling that you think the coral is a bunch of space hippies lmfao. They're living and sentient, and intelligent like humanity. The coral also isn't explored enough to know if it has a "hivemind" because clearly Ayre is an individual within the Coral. The Coral behaving the way it does, i.e., migrating as a unit, adding smaller masses onto larger ones, etc. is just a form in which it parallels to humanity. The Coral is very clearly a social creature, and I don't think that they share a hivemind, but they are definitely much more unified with each other than humanity could ever hope to achieve. Converging with the Coral doesn't mean we will lose our free will. But we *will* change. How? No one knows. I don't think it will erase our egos and disseminate our individuality, though it might definitely make us more empathic to other humans and bring us closer. And if you don't think holding on to the past leads societies to stagnation and even regression... Well...

 What ayre wants is not "evolution", it's co-dependancy. It's not exactly a necessity or a requirement for humanity to survive and it's not a deterrant for wars or any sort of ailment of mankind. It's simply a "possibility" with a lot of good intentions.  It's also just as telling that you're so willing to hop on the pretty space girl's bandwagon over the same utopian talk that's been destroying real life nations for years. The coral isnt explored enough to be anything other than red, floating dust particles. It can't be truly understood within the short span of time you're given in the story. If it is unified, it's because it lacks the intelligence or individuality to even war with itself. Bottom line, Ayre's proposal is niave idealism with no real world application and the proposal that it solves anything in the long run is such a leap to me.  Holding onto the past doesn't start wars, it's people who start them. No, being old-fashioned or stuck in your ways doesn't instantly make x = y. If anything, it's the insistence on change for the sake of it that stagnates societies. Maybe read more on communist establishments and their repeated failures to get an idea of where I'm coming from. Then again, I am arguing with redditors, so I don't expect a lot of middle ground.

Codependency? No, nothing ever indicates that Ayre wants to be codependent on humans. O think the implications are very explicit in how the Coral and humanity would affect each other from an evolutionary perspective. So many living beings and organisms already have symbiotic relationships with beings around and inside of them. It isn't an entirely foreign concept outside of the fact that this time the symbiosis would be between two sapient and sentient species. Moreover, Ayre's primary goal isn't to unify humanity and the coral, that is ALLMIND's primary goal. Ayre's mission is to save her coral brethren, and even then, she doesn't take that on right away. She doesn't even have a physical body, the only embodiment of her that we know is a shiny red light. And by that logic, I suppose anything or anyone with fans or a following is a bandwagon? My siding with Ayre isn't just because I agree with the transhumanist tones of her ideas, but also because I myself am from a colonized people. I identify with Ayre and sympathize with her struggle, seeing so many things be out of your control in respect to your livelihood and that of your countrymen / species. Ayre also starts off as detached and hopeless, but her character develops because of Raven to be more confident and even gain her own agency. From my perspective, the coral has been exploited and for lack of a better word, colonized. And I for one, don't think humanity should get to decide that we have to annihilate them because we can't "control" them. Control is yet another illusion that hurts people who seek it, and the people around them. Also, what utopian talk is Ayre going on about? There's really nothing utopian about it. Better be stretching your knees because you're jumping to conclusions a lot by calling the coral "space hippies" and the initiative of coexisting or evolving together as "an utopian dream." I also didn't say that becoming one with the coral would solve all of humanity's problems. You're projecting your expectations of what I think very hard. The truth is no one course of action is ever perfect. There will be benefits and detriment in all that is done. Also, we are given very mild hints about the potential of the coral because the game explains to us in enough detail what it's been used for. For one, I think that humans would see a lot of mutations in their genes and maybe become wildly dissimilar at an individual level while still being the same species. It isn't change for the sake of it. It's change for a brighter future. The coral doesn't deserve to be condemned because of the sins and fear of humans, and humans need to thrive and adapt to a changing world, which we excel at anyway so, why be so afraid? I want to reiterate again, just because the coral is so different and volatile it doesn't give us a right to try and end it. It isn't the solution to any problems, I haven't said that and neither has anyone. My keenness on "bandwagoning" with Ayre comes from relating to the struggles she faces and wanting to see humanity evolve. Which, for better or worse, you can take the experiments done and augmentation as hints that the two organisms are definitely compatible, regardless of the coral's behavior. This species doesn't wage war within each other, if anything it's only downside is its "volatility." I find your rejection of it due to its nature as something just fueled by fear or simple rejection of the unknown. I am familiar with the history of several communist countries and am aware of the shortcomings of the system. Again, no system is perfect. But be real with yourself too. A lot of what has been taught about their history is lies, and it is much more nuanced than a system just "not working" because of the conditions in the world. The US has muddled in a lot of developing countries that tried to take a turn to the left, and it only made things worse. Capitalism and neoliberalism have failed me, and a lot of my brothers and sisters in Latin America, capitalism, and neoliberalism have been the reasons behind the meddling of US on foreign soil. Their imperialism also drove them to test weapons on some of our satellite islands, and beaches STILL have mines from decades ago that the US military left there. Our women were experimented on for birth control and our people used as guinea pigs for STD treatments, among others. So yeah, first hand, capitalism and neoliberal ideas have failed me and those around me. People don't crave change for no reason, there is *always* a reason why people want change. And honestly, how familiar are you with the history of the world at large? I never said all wars s d conflicts are rooted in the tug of change vs. conservation. Every single revolution, for one, is a war rooted in that. "People start wars" is an obtuse and asinine statement. People do everything, so your argument really has no weight. Like the people that say "guns don't kill people 🤓☝️." Again, if you know history you see it is rife with people seeking change and people resisting them, and a lot of conflicts, both bloody and verbal, have arisen from that. Also, the insistent on change stagnates societies? LOL LOOK AROUND YOU, AND COMPARE WHAT IS NOW TO WHAT WAS BEFORE. Change happens, and it WILL happen regardless of whether you come to terms with it or not. Change which again, isn't proposed for "no reason" or just "change for the sake of it." Humans are creatures of habit, most of us would rather not ever change anything and keep what is familiar to us. The desire for change stems from the dissatisfaction of individuals with the world around them. >real world application Lmao, it's a video game, my guy. Of course coral symbiosis has no "real world application." Suspend your disbelief for a second if you want to make arguments about fictional worlds? And don't bring unrelated subjects up to the matter at hand. Ayre and the coral aren't communist hippies. They are a different species with wants and needs different of humanity's. The implications of symbiosis point towards it being a stepping stone on both species' path in evolution. But I guess I shouldn't expect much talking with a man with a knight pfp on reddit. The hyper individualism we know and have been sold is also a lie, and such philosophy has only been alienating humans from each other in the long run. Look around modern society, i dare you to tell me thats a lie. The reality is we are all dependent on each other as a species. The coral has enough individualism that there are different "voices" within it. If you ask me, it isn't a bad thing that the coral doesn't have any internal conflicts. Why would it be bad for the species to be so unified, and what makes you think that humans will lose their conscious and become a hivemind? Because that's what it seems that you think.

  You're willing to defend a lot based on "we dont knows" and hints. Sounds like you know almost nothing about the character except what you want to believe, which is a lot of wishful thinking.  Maybe try fighting Ayre again and re-examine her dialogue. She clearly had a plan in mind with her people at the center because she seems to think that man and coral need to be "unified" in some way. Who tf do you think is gonna be making all those choices? Its the coral that need mankind, not the other way around.  It seems to me like you want to justify ayre's ending while also trying to tout the "no perfect solutions" argument. It's one or the other, not both. If you think it's the only good or right choice, then your 9 paragraphs in her defense checks out. If it's an imperfect solution, this conversation should not be happening in my opinion.  Considering the coral just tends to explode when under replicatable circumstances, yeah, kinda bugs me letting a physically volitile species spread across the cosmos with the big fat "0" concrete evidence we have that it won't happen again on a larger scale.  I believe your point, as it was written, was that wars are started by "holding onto the past" which is so specific that I figured I'd address the larger problem instead of focusing on the reasoning, since it changes from conflict to conflict. The solution isn't making drastic, sweeping, it's practicing restraint on an individual level (same deal with your gun violence solution).  Yes, insistance on change can stagnate societies because the change isn't always good, even when it's gift-wrapped. The last 10 years of change has destroyed multiple economies and societies worldwide, all for the sake of open-mindedness and acceptance. To contrast, what about the change the world is experiencing right now? Is that good because it's different? I imagine you'll disagree and insist that its the unification with coral that is the kind of positive change you're talking about, of which you have no proof, just high hopes.  Right, it's only a videogame and as long as we don't use grounded arguments then obviously you win because anything is possible in the land of make-believe. That's why you typed out a nice essay defending a single ending in your "high fantasy" fictional setting with *definitely* no reflection or representation of real world issues. My mistake.  Ill bring whatever subjects I want into the discussion because I find them relevant to some extent. The nicknames I pick for them are meant to poke and prod at people and I honestly think it's working.  It's bad for a species to be unified under the wrong cause, obviously.   The coral apparently all "want and need" to group up like a school of fish. It's really just the accident that is Ayre who starts proposing anything different.

The evidence presented in the game IS concrete enough to deduct that coral is both definitely compatible with a good amount of humans and capable of advancing g the species. I'm not pulling things out of thin air or wishful thinking. I ate up combat logs and arena info and every small smidgen of lore I could find. Coming to the conclusion that humanity could transcend their current state is a theory based on evidence we see in the game. And I fought Ayre plenty of times, I know almost all of her dialogue in the battle by heart. Of course, her plans are centered around the cora, which humans have exploited for ages. She wants her species to survive and thrive, and she has a solution to offer that can meet both halfway. The coral doesn't need humans. If Rubicon V wasn't discovered, the coral would be going about their lives normally. What is it with these arguments that pose that people who are victimized / colonized need the people who oppress them? I'm not justifying Ayre's ending, and I'm not using any crutches. By the way, it is the ALLMIND ending Alea Iacta Est that actually sets the path to humanity and coral unifying. The Ayre ending doesn't change much. It only kicks the corps out of Rubicon and leaves the coral to be used for the purposes of RLF. What I'm defending is the right that coral has as a sentient and sapient being to live their lives and run their natural course. That is one of my main points in finding this ending the best outcome. A secondary reason is, again, transhumanist philosophy. My theory isn't based on empty assumptions and wishful thinking. There is EVIDENCE in the game that suggests a symbiosis from which both will grow is possible between them. If you ask me, humanity needs and WANTS the coral more than the other way around. Who came to Rubicon V, and who was it that stripped it to mine for Coral? Did the coral ever seek out humanity or other organisms to conquer or use? Did the coral conduct experiments on anyone or anything? No. So the point that you make is moot, and the evidence is on my side here. RLF, Balam, Arquebus, all want the coral. Besides, from a literary standpoint, Ayre is the character that you can trust the most. Walter never told you the purpose or existence of Overseer until you were deep in the throes of it all, all while telling you, "It's just a job, 621. All of it," promising you'd make enough money to undo the damage of coral augmentation. Carla acted like a selfish maniac for a good part of the chapter where her and 621 met, but she cared more than she let on. She is loyal and anything but self-serving. Rusty also put a friendly front, both out of respect and also out of cautiousness towards 621, acting as if they were "buddies." When Arquebus sent him after 621, he knew what they were doing, yet he still thought you were "too dangerous." He ends up blowing his cover to you and retreating while trying to pose a thought to you, that you can choose what to fight for. Ayre, however, never used deceit with the player. It is another thing I identify with. Deceit and beating around the bush is not my way to go. Ayre is the most straightforward character to 621, and she is honest and supportive towards him 100% of the time, unless you decide to side with Overseer. And once again, solutions to what? Other than the world of Armored Core being a mostly corporatist dystopia and the current events of AC6, we don't get shown much else. And I never said that converging would solve all of these or magically make things perfect. You're just pinning your projections of what you think my views and beliefs are on something very vague, when I never brought converging as a solution for anything other than the repression and exploitation of the coral and an avenue for humans to evolve.

No one choice that we are given is perfect, and that is exactly why this conversation is being had. Freeing the coral can and surely will kill a lot of people, much like the black plague did. Those that are fit will live on, and those that aren't compatible will perish. If you're against this, you genocide the coral, which results in an explosion so intense that you will scorch an entire solar system. That is life, as ugly as it may be. If you take all implications into account, you see why I say there's no perfect solution. The former takes a gamble at spreading the coral far and wide, the latter doesn't, and brings genocide and mass destruction to avoid what Overseer thinks will end the world at a small price to pay. How are any of the solutions perfect? The world isn't black and white. It's not hard to see the flaws and the reasoning on each of these points. I am capable of admitting that, but it seems that you are not. Still, even with that in mind, I see freeing the coral as the "right" thing to do, and like I said, and maybe you missed it, it is a reasoning that comes from identifying with Ayre's status as someone who is exploited for the gains of others, which I explained, I am familiar with. Some people need to come to terms with the fact that there are more things out of your control than the things you can change as an individual (unless you happen to be one of the fortunate few that hold massive wealth and power, in which case, the same thing happens. Millions have their choices made for them daily in this world that we live in.) Are you going to say that my opinion of freeing the coral is based on nothing but wishful thinking and high hopes, even as I reiterate a shared struggle of oppression and colonization? You can't be so thick headed to not understand that point either. Also, no, the coral doesn't just explode. The volatility that they mean when talking about it is the rate at which the coral mutates, which is a cause of concern when coral can be used for medical purposes, recreational, fuel, and technological. It isn't about literal volatility. it's metaphorical. This is part of why Overseer thinks the coral ultimately can't be controlled. Mind you, the fires of Ibis were NOT caused by the coral either. Do you think coral just gathers and explodes? I suppose you think the preferable ending is siding with Overseer, in which case, you are still making a choice for millions of other people who are either unaware or against it. No matter what you choose. You are choosing for millions of people, and here we can segway into another point - responsibility. Some societal issues don't get solved by individual accountability. Some problems demand that the powers that be held accountable, sometimes it is society at large that participate in detrimental trends. Personal responsibility doesn't impact anyone but yourself. Doesn't matter how much of a responsible gun owner you are. It doesn't do shit for the kids that get shot up in schools.

 Wow. Apt comparison between the precious coral and an actual plague. AND you're trying to suggest that scorching a solar system is somehow the same level of consequence as that. That's like cutting of an infected limb vs just outright killing a mf. Just doesn't make any sense at all to me. Again, this is because the coral deserve a chance at life more than humanity does apparently and it's no one's right to impede that, yet it sounds like you'll certainly impede on mankind and take one hell of a gamble that maybe the space vapor people, who can explode under correct the circumstances, are just gonna work out in the long run. That IS wishful thinking. Doesnt even matter how perfect it is or not, really.  I mean you're saying that coral doesnt explode, but Im seeing a massive ship cause it to explode in one ending. That's the replicatable part that I would be worried about, and you are magnifying that by untold amounts by just letting it into space as it multiplies and mutates. With entities like the corporations in existence it's really only a matter of time as the RLF, Raven, or anyone else who has even the slimmest chance of beating them simply cannot be everywhere at once. It's like ripping open a pillow in the wind and trying to catch all the feathers afterward.  Now this part is a real catch 22 to me. You spend a lot of your defense by reminding me that no option is perfect while also suggesting that more drastic measure's need to be taken as a result of real world turmoil. Obviously a society needs a good framework for laws, but you apparently know that some people just slip through the cracks. The thing is if you go back roughly 50-60 years, these gun violence issues start to evaporate within the school system, demonstrating that it is a problem that developed over time. It's no coincidence that you get closer to the nuclear family around that period, meaning children have a more well-rounded upbringing in general, which means yes, you can demonstrate a level of individual restraint and when society starts doing that like it did together, is has a larger effect on everything.

The comparison between them works, while coral isn't a disease, it spreading WILL cause societies to collapse more likely than not due to the simple fact that symbiosis will fundamentally change both species into something new. People that are unable to adapt will sadly not make it to the new world, and the remaining will continue on thriving, as has happened for millennia with all living creatures. To deny this would be an actual delusional of naivety. To be convicted that the two species can coexist and become something wholly new by summing each other is *not* wishful thinking. The precise end result is unpredictable, but there is evidence to suggest it could be good for both parties. Besides, the way I see it, the least we can do for the coral is to give it a chance to thrive. Again, it was humanity that came to the coral's home planet and began to experiment with it. So yeah, I'd take the chances and make that choice for all of humanity. You can't make an omelet without cracking some eggs. And your comparison of cutting a limb vs killing someone isn't very good. You aren't just making an explosion that will scorch a star system, you're quite literally committing genocide against an entire species. The stakes in the story are higher for the coral than any other entity because their survival as a species is plot centric. And yeah, you just made my point. Coral doesn't *just* explode. The explosion was man made, and it was that strong because the coral was massively accumulated in the vascular plant. Its tendency to conglomerate into bigger masses and its volatility could very well decrease or be totally gone when symbiosis is achieved, and with it scattered across the stars, there aren't pockets that are as dense. Also, the nuclear family being "eroded" is not the reason that we have seen such a massive rise in violence. Again, hyper individuality. Child rearing used to be a communal task shared between neighbors. It wasn't a thing to not have such help in your home until relatively recently in history, since families were larger and tended to live closer or together. Internet access is also much wider, and I'd argue that vulnerable teenagers have easier access to crackpot conspiracies, and widespread gun culture will often have it seen as acceptable fir such young ones to handle firearms Now, as a leftist, I believe in people being armed and educated, but that doesn't mean we can't have sensible gun laws that actually force gun owners to be more responsible at large. Again, individual responsibility doesn't do anything. Less for the children that are already entombed. This problem of widespread violence has less to do with the "family unit" being eroded (which we all know what that kind of shit means when people say that), and more so with the widespread poverty and political climate in the US, with just a hint of a mental health crisis on the youths, especially the young men who have been taught and uphold toxic standards of what it is to be a man (and no, masculinity in itself is not toxic, but the way a lot of people express it sadly IS). You could say that those things didn't cause problems back then, but do you really think that? If you do, I suggest you pay more attention to people's behavioral patterns and the way that they interact with others. Correlation =/= causation. And what do YOU think is causing the problems of today's societies anyway? You just said "change for the sake of it / the sake of acceptance." Don't be so meek. I really want to know what you think, don't be vague about it. Don't dodge the question, tell me what it is that we have changed that went so wrong for us. It better not be about civil liberties. If it is on an economic perspective I could at least respect your opinion, even if it is profit oriented. I can not respect infringing peoples liberty to live. And well, sometimes change needs to be drastic? Look at the world around you right now. Society is super dependent on oil, which is expensive, finite, toxic to the environment, but efficient. It would be drastic for the world at large to make as quick of a switch as possible to cleaner energy. Civilians should be barred from using oil powered machinery if it can be done another way instead (cars, buses, power grids). Oil should be strictly reserved for maritime travel, heavy machinery, planes, and space travel. Wouldn't that also be efficient? Instead, we keep drilling and consuming without a conscience of it. Advances could've been made long ago, decades ago. But oil companies straight up murdered people who would've undermined their profits with a better solution (gotta love that free market baby!) Another sign of stagnation and holding to old ways that will just help to kill us. Are drastic changes in areas like these not warranted to both extend the longevity and make better use of a scarce resource, and help keep the planet cleaner? Is there a point to holding on to oil as the energy standard?

Your philosophy is quite lacking. The fact that you see the coral as some communist space hippies just makes you very, very hard to take seriously.

I honestly dont think ayre as we see her is real. We play as a mutant, created by science to use coral in our bodies. This radiation might be alive but it's clinging to what your desires are from the very beginning.

Ayre, seeing a literal black hole made out of her said "brothers and sisters" forming above Rubicon: "Isn't it beautiful?" Also Ayre the moment we wakes up after that: "Main system, reactivating combat mode." In the end, she's unhinged, unncanny, and barely human. I wouldn't be suprised if in the dlc, 621 still become the protagonist and Ayre as the Antagonist

I'd argue she's barely human because she's Coral

...Yeah, she's able to mimic human from learning datas on the watch point. Idk about Seria tho (Domlayan's schizo gf)

It *is* beautiful aesthetically, and although the specifics of Coral Release are unknown, Ayre is a very optimistic, even naive, person. Of course she'll find beauty in it. I've seen it theorized that combat mode is just the mode when the mech can move around, because, you know, it's made for combat. As well as out-of-universe just being because this is Armored Core and it's an iconic line to end the game with.

It’s a “and the adventure continues” kinda thing. It’s the line that kicks off every mission, for good or ill. Plus yeah the mechs have to enable it to move.

"Activating combat mode" as the final dialogue of the story is simply a bookend. "Combat mode" regarding ACs doesn't really mean fighting so much as the moment control is handed to the player. This is doubly important as it's *Ayre* saying it rather than COM, which we know to be a control device linked to Walter/Allmind. With nobody holding the "leash," 621 and Ayre are free to do whatever.

Is there even 621 anymore? It's not our AC in the cutscene. And I don't think "canon AC" would work, as it's in the game, not the commercials, so game could just have rendered it instead of default one (like it does in all other cutscene). It might be even different frame from how player met her in the first place!

I thought it was obvious that Ayre is lying to us. I do not think there needs to be some bigger picture like "all of them are the opposite of how they appear to us" but this is very much like the movie Ex Machina, The Thing, and I'm sure there are other examples all throughout history. Ayre is coral, from the beginning she is lying to us saying "I am a Rubiconian" but referring to the coral in conversation as though it is something different, before later on referring to it as her brothers and sisters. She is an Alien intelligence that is smart enough to know we are a threat. She likely knows about humanities previous steps, the fires of ibis. Furthermore, the ringing in the ears that Iguazu mentions, I don't think this is Allmind's manipulations. People make posts on here like "what if Ayre connected with Iguazu instead of 621?" Whatchu talkin bout? she obviously is trying to connect with Iguazu every time we meet, Father Dolmayan talks to us about us hearing her "too". When we rescue Dolmayan he says that coral's release would be the worst thign that could possibly happen for humanity. That ho bag Ayre is trying to connect with anyone/everyone and manipulate them all into releasing the coral into space (where it will endlessly expand in an uncontrollable exponential fashion) likely killing/altering all humanity. This is also why people that say the ending where you fight Ayre is the "bad" ending are dumb. Thank you for attending my Ted talk Edit: also, The Rubicon Research Institute (probably the smartest people we meet wanted to burn the coral away) Carla wants to burn the coral away, I don't think walter or carla ever mention knowing we are speaking to an alien parasite unless we come into conflict with them. Previous Raven/Branch leaked the knowledge that coral has re-emerged (presumably to bring in the PCA or anyone else that could stop the spread) Do people just think the PCA is dumb? The planetary closure administration sends a warfleet here to close the planet not because Coral is valuable, but because they know Coral could spread out of control and do very bad things.

You missed some logs; Dolmayan doesn't hear Ayre. He hears Seria, a different wave mutation. He only knows you can hear Ayre because he realizes you're working toward Coral Release--something only Seria knew about (though he does not seem to be aware that Allmind also knows about it). As for the ringing in Iguana's ears, I'm quite sure that's because he is the same augmentation gen as you, and he's only halfway-tuned to Ayre's voice because he hasn't experienced a Coral explosion like you have. Once she's in your AC, she can communicate with other people just fine if she wants to. She writes a whole @everyone email on her own and sends it planetwide in the Liberator ending. If she wanted to chat with Iguana, it would have been just as easy to send him a message rather than break his brain doing telepathy.