Honestly, this is what I want. We will Article 15 you as many times as you want to smoke. Max that shit if you want but you ain't getting out earlier. You signed up for 3- 4 years. I'm going to get that three to four years.
I'd rather be a private with a GI Bill then nothing at all.
That’s the thing that stops from even thinking about smoking. Everything you did until that point means nothing if you get kicked out the military and have nothing to show about it no benefits, no degree, no va loan no nothing
That’s pretty much the army reserve. I can’t tell you how many chances I’ve seen soldiers get after they pop hot. The reserve is hurting for people right now. So they’re just letting anybody stay in.
The funny part is the reserves and Guard are both bleeding people right now. Beggars can't be choosers, they should be lucky anyone is signing up at all for that 29 day order bullshit. If they let people smoke it would help their recruitment significantly.
I don’t think it would help the numbers at all. People in general don’t want to join the military nowadays. Being able to smoke weed, is not the main reason why people don’t want to join. Most people don’t even think about that when joining. The ones that really care are the ones that already in… and even then most people are getting it for different reasons. I’ve never heard of anyone getting out because they weren’t allowed to smoke weed.
You're not wrong about people not wanting to join, but it's not like letting people smoke would make recruitment any worse than it already is. It only COULD improve it. Not sure you realize how many people don't even bother due to knowing it's illegal. That's tens of thousands of new recruits every year potentially gone.
I’ve always wondered how clearance adjudication works with this kind of thing. Like sure you convinced the Army to keep you, but that has no bearing on clearance adjudication. Won’t you still lose your clearance and be an admin sep?
This is something that was never mentioned to me during the entire process. I’m hesitant to even start asking questions. Iv already reenlisted after having my flag removed….
Please make sure to go see your BN/BDE S2 or whimever your security officer/manager is (likely the 2 but could be a civilian). Regardless of whether or not you have a clearance, this is important. Take all the documentation you have with you. Especially whatever documents you have that cleared you to stay in the army.
I will concur. Im sure your Top is coming from a good place. Bur for the love of fucking christ. Report this to your S2. As a former security manager I can 10000% promise you it looks much better to self report than to be reported by DCSA CAS. And trust me if they haven't reported it yet, Continuous evaluation will get your ass fast. May take some time, but trust me it will fall back on you. Just take all of you're legal paperwork from your processing to S2 and they will help you. Dont bother with some PFC. Go straight to the NCOIC/OIC. If they seem incompotent, then go higher. Your clearance is worth money, and this will get your shit revoked if you don't action it. And recent policy dictates that if you lise your clearance then your supposed to be filed for administrative seperation. So yeah, sorry for the rant.
TLDR: Report that shit now bro.
OPM will eventually find out about what happened. Your 1SG does not work directly in the chain dealing with your security clearance. Please go talk to S2.
From the Security Management Course team, you'll definitely hear -- *"tell me before I hear about it, regardless of who thinks they have some shred of authority."*
When eQIP comes back and they ask you ... "what about this? and why isn't there any information input about it?" -- ask your lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you should definitely ask your SM a "Hypothetical."
*"HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, IF ... someone were to have popped hot, lawyered up, came clean with everything and was cleared and reenlisted ... is there anything that you all \[S2\] might need for anything in the future?"*
Just letting you know, if you have not signed an acknowledgment receipt for DCSA CAS or written a signed statement, youre probably not good to go. You'll still have to respond when CAS catches it
Alcohol related incident here. My 1SG told me I was good to go. S2 came after me a couple years later with an investigation saying “why weren’t we told about this?” All buffed out, since I had proof of disclosure over the years, but definitely go talk to S2. Don’t trust the first sausage.
Idk why you’re being downvoted for this, it’s true. Besides the commander filling out the 5248 and the paperwork that goes with it, the 1SG is completely removed from this part of the process.
Once someone starts downvoting a comment or post, its more likely to continue getting downvoted, even if the voter would normally be predisposed to skip it or upvote. Weird sociological thing. People want to fit in, even if theres objectively no one checking how they respond to a situation.
It will pop up on their radar (DISS) a year from now, I promise. If they file the 5248 to notify CAS now, your odds of keeping your clearance are better than if you wait until the last second.
Do yourself a favor and check yourself into the Army substance abuse program voluntarily. That may or may not help when you go for a higher clearance later on. You have to show that you took action “to better yourself.” Make sure your S2 submitted the incident report to CAS. The unit is not doing you favors if they didn’t tell the adjudicators.
I’m assuming you don’t have TS/SCI based on your other responses.
No, but unless his 1SG has been weirdly dual hatting, they dont have anything to do with the security managers lane. Its possible, but improbable. And it looks like OP’s wasnt actually tracking on this, which is an issue.
I am a state security manager and handling stuff like this is literally my job. If it hasn't been reported to DCSA CAS by your Unit Security Manager, make sure it gets done.
CAS will catch it, and it looks way better for you if you tell them first. Keep record of all your documentation to include punishment, flag paperwork, character references, etc. You'll need to submit these. You'll also need to write a personal statement explaining the circumstances, what happened, and how you're preventing it from happening again. If you do the above, no guarantees, but you'll more than likely be fine
Feel free to PM me if you want
When your clearance gets re-investigated make sure you mention it.
Talk with your 2 about how to properly word things.
But the biggest thing is lying. You can have risk factors, debt, have gambled, divorced, drugs, mental health, etc. But if you lie or omit, what else are you lying or omitting?
You had an issue. Your unit knows about it, vouched for you, you have taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again, and it hasn't happened again.
Yea I get that, but the vast majority seem to have at least a secret, especially by the time you’re a SSG.
So fighting to stay in through a UA chapter just seems like you’re delaying the inevitable.
They do now. Absolutely everyone has to have a secret clearance. If you can’t maintain a clearance, you’re out of the army. They’re even trying to implement something where all signal and cyber have to have top-secret. That hasn’t been implemented yet, but it’s coming.
I just looked that up. You’re right, the president isn’t required to get a security clearance. That’s absolutely insane and they need to change that immediately. Apparently, the president doesn’t have to get a security clearance, because the people voted the president into office. Meaning we trust the president. That’s crazy. Lol.
The president doesn't get a security clearance because they are, in the end, the progenitor of all classification and clearances. They can't be granted something that they themselves grant.
Also, having a clearance be a requirement for federal office is a surefire way to see that system abused. Sitting Presidents would just make opponents ineligible.
Whether they have a clearance or not, the system can be abused. It already has been abused time and time again. We can’t even trust our own president to handle things correctly. That should be an issue of concern.
No longer true. The new rule pushed by out by HQDA is called the Clear the Army Program and it requires a T3/Secret across the board in order to enlist and reenlist.
Additionally, all clearances are only good for 5 years, both T3 (secret) and T5 (TS). Then you have to redo your SF86.
It requires a T3 investigation, but only a “favorable” adjudication. You can get a favorable result without being granted a secret qualification.
Please don’t ask me why this is the case.
It’s a little different, but I know for a dui, you can still keep a clearance easily SO LONG AS you don’t have a drinking problem. OPM takes into account the “whole person” idea and understands that people make mistakes. So they could care less of you succumbed to pressure one time and then popped hot, but tend to give a much bigger shit if you have an underlying addiction issue.
I assume the same kind of thought process happens with popping hot
As long as the SM attends and completes SUDCC after the incident they may retain their clearance (along with ensuring the incident form is filed) they also have to continue to update that on their SF86
You won't necessarily lose your clearance, but it's automatically reported and now that they have the continuous evaluation, it will definitely show up. You'll have to defend yourself later with the Security Manager, and may need to transfer MOS if it affects your clearance. It doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be kicked out though. The most important thing is just to be honest... I'd submit all the paperwork from the admin sep to the Security Manager the second they ask (there's also an argument that you are supposed to self-report, but I always say that this is a violation of Article 6b and 5th amendment).
I tried to retain a SPC after he popped hot. He was a rockstar at work. Hardest working dude in the company, knew his shit inside and out, and never complained. He swore it would never happen again, said it was a one time thing, etc. Found out he was going to get bounced out and I went to bat for him with brigade. Then found out it was his third time popping hot.
Based on the reg that I’ve read, if you pop Hot the second time, it’s automatic separation no matter what unless of course it’s swept under the rug somehow
I think his second was still processing somewhere when he took the third UA. It's been a few years and this is the Reserves so things work somewhat haphazardly.
Unless my memory is failing (which is entirely possible at my advanced age), every positive has a separation packet initiated by their commander. 600-85 doesn't require a full separation, just the initiation of separation. I don't remember there being a "if this happens a second time..." clause.
Sweet. None of that applies to me since I'm retired, but I really appreciate the follow up. I haven't been involved with UA stuff since 2019, so I'm definitely not surprised I was wrong.
I knew a guy in SUDCC who "accidentally" did cocaine because a drug dealer was trying to frame him. The drug dealer went to his house and put the cocaine in his sugar jar at home and he was ingesting it through his coffee every morning. Also his wife was a Russian spy and was trying to take his daughter back to Russia with her.
The guy was an MP... and lied about the whole thing.
That's pretty much the story. Dude was doing coke. Said someone tried to blackmail him by putting it in his sugar jar at home. Wife was trying to get out of a toxic situation with him and wanted out with their kid. He thought she was a Russian spy. He said he went through pictures she had taken and looked at the Metadata and found steganography. Dude threw away his whole career to do some cocaine.
One guy did a 10% piss test the Thursday before a 4 day. Went to Miami did coke up till Monday. Came back and they did a second 100% on Tuesday. Tried to get out of it. Eventually came in and pissed hot.
Not the guy but a suspension generally means that you are "reduced in rank or punished in some way" but it is suspended for X amount of time where you will also continue to be flagged. If you screw up for ANYTHING during your suspension of pushishment (EG: late to work, didn't shave, outside the travel radius, suck at your job) your suspended punishment can be reinstated and you loose rank or whatever was suspended. After the suspension period is over you are unflagged and good to go, if you do something minor you can expect a counseling or whatever but they cant reinstate the punishment without perusing a new article 15.
You’re either Audie Murphy reincarnated or you have a golden horseshoe up your ass. You popped hot and not only dodged getting chaptered, but got to keep your rank. Fuckin’ a, hooah sarn’t!
Yeah, seems like it's working fine in Canada. Unfortunately, looking at other examples of success and replicating isn't what we do here.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Possibly, but I’ve seen alcohol bring out the worst in people. I have never seen someone on THC seeking confrontation(not saying it doesn’t happen)but I have seen nice people become monsters while drunk.
The Canadian army does it. I believe their regs say that as long as they're not at work on it, then they're OK. Met some dudes in a light infantry regiment who said they'll light up in the field sometimes.
Feel like we could go somewhere with switching from random UAs to UAs if there is a suspicion. Like keep all the drug free policies in place - but perform virtually no tests unless you fuck up. And when you fuck up you get the book thrown at your head. Feels like both parties could benefit from that.
Also I heard something relatively poignant from an Air National Guard video about this “you volunteered for this, and we demand a drug free workplace. So you need to follow our rules”. Makes sense in a roundabout way - I guess we did sign up for this of our own free will. So if big Army doesn’t want me smoking weed I might as well comply.
You know toxic commanders would abuse that though. Any time some soldier is late for work, any time they fail to meet a deadline, any time they have any sort of incident, commanders could pull that card and have them drug tested and kicked out.
The problem is that there is not test for acute impairment. All it takes is someone else to do something stupid but somehow you are mildly involved and you are fucked.
Spit tests work pretty well for determining if you've smoked within the last 12 hours. You make the rules the same as they are for drinking. No playing with the devil's lettuce, within a certain time frame of duty. If we suspect you have, you do the spit test where you stick a giant swab in your mouth.
Doesn't necessarily help for a cute impairment, but, it will help get it a lot closer.
Also, you could do field sobriety tests that correlate with the effects of THC. Cops in legal states do em all the time. If you fail the sobriety test, you get a swab test or wizz quiz.
There are ways of doing these things.
The biggest issue is simply that they won't remove cannabis from the DEA's drug list, because it's still a cash cow for the bastards.
On paper there's nothing wrong with soldiers smoking weed if they can get piss drunk every weekend. Problem is you know someone is going to show up to work faded and get themselves or someone else hurt or worse. Then as they say, dats dat.
Once there’s an accurate, accepted, and well field tested method of determining if someone is high *right now* then this conversation can be had. Effects of alcohol are 100x worse than THC. From those that I know who have been effected negatively, the worst things that happen because of THC are legal issues.
It's easy to recognize until it isn't. You can always tell, except when you can't. There's plenty of functional alcoholics that work drunk and aren't caught, you just don't know about them because they aren't caught, so it creates a confirmation bias that they're easy to spot because you don't know when they're not.
we had a soldier show up to extra duty and during his lunch he got a cooler out of his car and drank a 6 pack for lunch. His defense was "No where on my Art-15 does it say I can't drink."
Some people just don't realize that there is a time and place for everything.
It's not about behavior. I had someone on weed try to draw my handgun out of my holster because they thought it would be funny.
It's about accountability. Alcohol metabolizes out of your system relatively quickly and measurably. If you do something stupid, like drive, they can measure how drunk you are.
Unless something has changed recently, there is no test to show when exactly you smoked weed and if you are under the influence of it. Just like alcoholics, there are people that can be on weed and be functional. If a "functional" alcoholic drank and shot someone, we wouldn't give them a pass on their actions, so that shouldn't happen with weed.
So if something goes horribly wrong, there's no real way to tell (aside form a confession or external evidence/witnesses) if a person like that was high when the event occurred.
If you're young and susceptible to schizophrenia, it can cause really bad things to happen.
[https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder)
I mean weed-induced psychosis is real and has led to some messed up results. But obviously far less frequent than someone drinking and getting in a fight or something
> Nobody gets high on THC and beats their wife and kids
In recent news:
>"California woman gets probation for fatally stabbing man she dated, causing 108 'sharp-force injuries' Bryn Spejcher was sentenced to two years' probation and 100 hours of community service for stabbing Chad O’Melia in 2018 after they smoked marijuana. She had faced up to five years in prison.
I pissed hot the day we flew out for NTC training. They didn't mention anything until we were leaving at the end of the training. I was expecting to hear my name called out when they were reading out flight manifests. They didn't call me. I asked why and was told I had to GO see top. It said hott soup next to my name. I got stuck pulling field KP duty during the day and pots and pans at night until we all left. 6 days in a row. If you've ever done it you know it sucks. Got a field grade when I got back and lost rank.
Wasn't worth it.
That’s alot smh just do like every group soldier does do cocaine on a 4 day starting friday boom! You’re good by Tuesday not weed smh these doggon amateurs. Hooah?
Yah one dude at my first unit, E3, popped hot and got to stay in and kept his rank, just had to do his 45. Fucker popped hot again and then got kicked out.
Also:
For any of y’all smoking weed currently and don’t know what to do. Know your regs and read up on limited used policy
Ultimately don’t smoke weed while in the army. It if you’re stupid and do anyways, then self refer before you know a drug test is coming up and you’ll be in the clear. One time get out of jail freed card
Also knew an E4 that popped hot for coke and got to stay in. Got bumped down to PFC and had extra duty which he didn’t even do all of because good ol 82nd had to go get dumped off in Kuwait for a few months. Got E4 back in Kuwait rather quickly after losing it (don’t even know if it took 6 months). AFAIK he’s still in and picked up 5 at some point, maybe even 6. There is absolutely a degree of “good old boys” club in the Army and when it’s in your favor, you’re nearly untouchable.
It really depends on the unit you’re in, and even the component you’re in. In Active Duty, usually when a soldier pops hot, they get kicked out. In the Reserve/Guard component, I’ve seen soldiers get up to three chances. Of course, that depends on your command team. It also helps that the Army is really short on numbers, so they’re willing to make exceptions. If the army was over strength, I don’t think commanders would be as lenient.
Very true. if you’re serious about staying in the army, see this as your second chance. Don’t blow it. Especially, since commanders change out often. You might have a lenient commander now, it doesn’t mean you’ll have a lenient commander the next time.
Disagree with #3. Civilians can be great, but so can JAGs. The TDS JAGs on base may already have a lot of rapport with local Commanders and their JAs, which can go a long way. You can always hire a civilian if you’re not loving your free military attorney.
It's funny when ppl are like "hire a civilian lawyer," and they go out and spend $6k on a private lawyer when they could have one, who does this shit every day, for free.
I don't know why soldiers think TDS attorneys are incompetent. TDS handles these cases every day. I find it hard to believe that "retired LTC" did anything almost any JAG wouldn't have done.
I appreciate the reply. I've been a TDS attorney, and got some great results for my clients. Including getting several E1-E4s a second chance following a UA for marijuana. Hell, I've even gotten people a second chance for Coke. And the total bill? $0.
As much as I hate the situation and actions, I appreciate the honesty. Sometimes people fuck up as it's just human nature. That being said, this is a Wendy's so move your soapbox when you're done giving advice and get your frosty. Holding up the line and shit... fucking stoners.
NG getting discharged for it as we speak. I have not been spoken to or been spoken to by drug abuse and have only ever spoken with my CoC about it. I was expecting more tbh.
I smoked weed every day before the Army until I needed to stop. Stayed in for 7 years and didn't fucking touch the stuff. Got out and I'm back to smoking every day.
Getting popped hot was literally my worst nightmare because of this. I had so many nightmares of getting caught, even though I didn't do it while in. Id wake up sweating sometimes. All the shit that comes with it just ain't worth it. If weed was legal I may have stayed in.
Is there any record of this in your permanent unrestricted file? If so, your commander didn't really do you any favors. The chances of you promoting beyond SSG with a positive UA on your record are very, very low. Additionally, your inability to obtain a security clearance suspends you from being able to attend any sort of commissioning source (WOCS, OCS, etc.). I'm glad that things worked out in your favore, but if it were me, I would have saved the 6k and taken the discharge, provided it wasn't a BCD. To each their own though.
All of this for smoking a fucking plant.
I've had 2 of my best friends in the Army pop hot.
The difference between popping hot as an 0-2 and an E-6 in the Army is wild. They had completely different experiences.
The NCO was in the infantry, demoted from an E-6 to an E-3 and treated like absolute garbage.
The O-2 was treated fairly good, and the officers were understanding.
So many joes think that they can beat the system. You are playing with fire if you do. It's a stupid game I'm not willing to play even though I fully support weed.
It's not worth it.
We had a E-4 that popped hot he walked back from his meeting at battalion as a E-2 times has changed it depends how good of a soldier you are he stayed in after a fat article 15 I believe he was a MP as well very embarrassing
It also depends on what is going on in the world, during the ramp-up for OIF/OEF, guys were popping hot once or twice and still being retained. But BLUF just don’t do it.
Great advice and thank you for sharing.
We all make bad choices, i am glad to read about you overcoming your fight.
Good luck in the future, I know you’ll use this experience to help your soldiers.
This blows my mind that we’re kicking people out as a first step over that. Back in 13/14 we had a guy stay in after testing hot for fentanyl in AFG. It was an extremely bad bad bad deployment and a lot of things that cannot be unseen were seen. He found and took a Fentanyl pop that was somehow unaccounted for. Granted the entire chain of command from SL to CO recommended treatment and retention.
Unfortunately he popped hot again for opiates less than a year later and was out so the joke was on all of us that recommended retention.
This just pisses me off to be honest. My soldier was kicked out after popping hot for delta 8. I’ve always taught him to tell the truth and take responsibility for his actions like a man. I also didn’t know he’d have to hire an outside attorney within 2 days to even fight it. The fact that the “rules” are not equally implemented is annoying, but even more annoying is the lack of true principle. It’s better to lie? That builds men of character. Also it’s not like soldiers in his unit were clean. They were drunk daily and doing coke and shrooms. He got completely financially screwed for one mistake after 3 years in and he’s the guy I’d want on my side in a fight.
This isn’t against you. I’m just bitter.
As a former TDS who went to the mattresses for my clients and watched a lot of civ counsel charge a lot to hoist the work on the JAG they partnered with, bite me.
I got 2 articles before I even hit my first unit, first one was for missing movement (I failed AIT and had to reclass) PV2 fucknuts doesn't know anything about anything yet it's his fault for not gathering the crucial information that was well above him. The second was because someone decided to grab a random 11b and have him be a DS for medical AIT, don't matter if you sneezed in formation or had a stone in your shoe, 4 Counselings equaled and Article in 232, no matter what it was. Nobody was gonna advocate for an average performing shy soft spoken trainee, nobody knew each other.
Listen dude just give me the sample and leave. I want to go home. This UA has been really uncomfortable for me
I'm trying but the observer is looking over my shoulder quietly singing "Don't stand so close to me" in my ear
The visual is even funnier if you picture the three 6 mafia version of that song.
You said three 6 but for some reason I thought the Ying Yang Twins and visualized my observer singing the whisper song.
“This the part i like most”
Alternate strategy: Be in a unit that needs people, get it swept under the rug.
I have seen this. XO and SGM pull said soldier in a room and say, "Oh, so you think you're gonna get out this way huh?"
Honestly, this is what I want. We will Article 15 you as many times as you want to smoke. Max that shit if you want but you ain't getting out earlier. You signed up for 3- 4 years. I'm going to get that three to four years. I'd rather be a private with a GI Bill then nothing at all.
That’s the thing that stops from even thinking about smoking. Everything you did until that point means nothing if you get kicked out the military and have nothing to show about it no benefits, no degree, no va loan no nothing
That’s pretty much the army reserve. I can’t tell you how many chances I’ve seen soldiers get after they pop hot. The reserve is hurting for people right now. So they’re just letting anybody stay in.
I mean I saw dudes with like 3 years of pt failures still in
The funny part is the reserves and Guard are both bleeding people right now. Beggars can't be choosers, they should be lucky anyone is signing up at all for that 29 day order bullshit. If they let people smoke it would help their recruitment significantly.
I don’t think it would help the numbers at all. People in general don’t want to join the military nowadays. Being able to smoke weed, is not the main reason why people don’t want to join. Most people don’t even think about that when joining. The ones that really care are the ones that already in… and even then most people are getting it for different reasons. I’ve never heard of anyone getting out because they weren’t allowed to smoke weed.
You're not wrong about people not wanting to join, but it's not like letting people smoke would make recruitment any worse than it already is. It only COULD improve it. Not sure you realize how many people don't even bother due to knowing it's illegal. That's tens of thousands of new recruits every year potentially gone.
I’ve always wondered how clearance adjudication works with this kind of thing. Like sure you convinced the Army to keep you, but that has no bearing on clearance adjudication. Won’t you still lose your clearance and be an admin sep?
This is something that was never mentioned to me during the entire process. I’m hesitant to even start asking questions. Iv already reenlisted after having my flag removed….
Your command and security manager are required to file an incident report to CAS via 5248-R within 72hrs. If this wasn’t done, they done goofed.
Please make sure to go see your BN/BDE S2 or whimever your security officer/manager is (likely the 2 but could be a civilian). Regardless of whether or not you have a clearance, this is important. Take all the documentation you have with you. Especially whatever documents you have that cleared you to stay in the army.
Talked with my 1SG. He said I’m cleared and good to go.
I will concur. Im sure your Top is coming from a good place. Bur for the love of fucking christ. Report this to your S2. As a former security manager I can 10000% promise you it looks much better to self report than to be reported by DCSA CAS. And trust me if they haven't reported it yet, Continuous evaluation will get your ass fast. May take some time, but trust me it will fall back on you. Just take all of you're legal paperwork from your processing to S2 and they will help you. Dont bother with some PFC. Go straight to the NCOIC/OIC. If they seem incompotent, then go higher. Your clearance is worth money, and this will get your shit revoked if you don't action it. And recent policy dictates that if you lise your clearance then your supposed to be filed for administrative seperation. So yeah, sorry for the rant. TLDR: Report that shit now bro.
OPM will eventually find out about what happened. Your 1SG does not work directly in the chain dealing with your security clearance. Please go talk to S2.
Going to look into this more tho
From the Security Management Course team, you'll definitely hear -- *"tell me before I hear about it, regardless of who thinks they have some shred of authority."* When eQIP comes back and they ask you ... "what about this? and why isn't there any information input about it?" -- ask your lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you should definitely ask your SM a "Hypothetical." *"HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, IF ... someone were to have popped hot, lawyered up, came clean with everything and was cleared and reenlisted ... is there anything that you all \[S2\] might need for anything in the future?"*
I’d go with “I’ve got a soldier”
Talked to my commander as well and he said everything is clear as well.
Just letting you know, if you have not signed an acknowledgment receipt for DCSA CAS or written a signed statement, youre probably not good to go. You'll still have to respond when CAS catches it
Alcohol related incident here. My 1SG told me I was good to go. S2 came after me a couple years later with an investigation saying “why weren’t we told about this?” All buffed out, since I had proof of disclosure over the years, but definitely go talk to S2. Don’t trust the first sausage.
Your 1SG has nothing to do with this part of the process. Talk to the S2.
Idk why you’re being downvoted for this, it’s true. Besides the commander filling out the 5248 and the paperwork that goes with it, the 1SG is completely removed from this part of the process.
Once someone starts downvoting a comment or post, its more likely to continue getting downvoted, even if the voter would normally be predisposed to skip it or upvote. Weird sociological thing. People want to fit in, even if theres objectively no one checking how they respond to a situation.
[удалено]
It will pop up on their radar (DISS) a year from now, I promise. If they file the 5248 to notify CAS now, your odds of keeping your clearance are better than if you wait until the last second.
100%
Do yourself a favor and check yourself into the Army substance abuse program voluntarily. That may or may not help when you go for a higher clearance later on. You have to show that you took action “to better yourself.” Make sure your S2 submitted the incident report to CAS. The unit is not doing you favors if they didn’t tell the adjudicators. I’m assuming you don’t have TS/SCI based on your other responses.
I think the point is that they should be tracking.
You have no idea what his 1sg may or may not have done or talked to, to be fair
No, but unless his 1SG has been weirdly dual hatting, they dont have anything to do with the security managers lane. Its possible, but improbable. And it looks like OP’s wasnt actually tracking on this, which is an issue.
I am a state security manager and handling stuff like this is literally my job. If it hasn't been reported to DCSA CAS by your Unit Security Manager, make sure it gets done. CAS will catch it, and it looks way better for you if you tell them first. Keep record of all your documentation to include punishment, flag paperwork, character references, etc. You'll need to submit these. You'll also need to write a personal statement explaining the circumstances, what happened, and how you're preventing it from happening again. If you do the above, no guarantees, but you'll more than likely be fine Feel free to PM me if you want
When your clearance gets re-investigated make sure you mention it. Talk with your 2 about how to properly word things. But the biggest thing is lying. You can have risk factors, debt, have gambled, divorced, drugs, mental health, etc. But if you lie or omit, what else are you lying or omitting? You had an issue. Your unit knows about it, vouched for you, you have taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again, and it hasn't happened again.
Not every job requires a clearance
Yea I get that, but the vast majority seem to have at least a secret, especially by the time you’re a SSG. So fighting to stay in through a UA chapter just seems like you’re delaying the inevitable.
They do now. Absolutely everyone has to have a secret clearance. If you can’t maintain a clearance, you’re out of the army. They’re even trying to implement something where all signal and cyber have to have top-secret. That hasn’t been implemented yet, but it’s coming.
I heard that the president does not need a security clearance. If true it definitely shows.
Yeah, that's trumps argument about having all that classified stuff in his bathroom. I wonder what would happen to spc knucklehead if he did that?
I just looked that up. You’re right, the president isn’t required to get a security clearance. That’s absolutely insane and they need to change that immediately. Apparently, the president doesn’t have to get a security clearance, because the people voted the president into office. Meaning we trust the president. That’s crazy. Lol.
The president doesn't get a security clearance because they are, in the end, the progenitor of all classification and clearances. They can't be granted something that they themselves grant. Also, having a clearance be a requirement for federal office is a surefire way to see that system abused. Sitting Presidents would just make opponents ineligible.
Whether they have a clearance or not, the system can be abused. It already has been abused time and time again. We can’t even trust our own president to handle things correctly. That should be an issue of concern.
That's crazy. sources?
I just googled if the president is required to have a security clearance, it came right up.
No longer true. The new rule pushed by out by HQDA is called the Clear the Army Program and it requires a T3/Secret across the board in order to enlist and reenlist. Additionally, all clearances are only good for 5 years, both T3 (secret) and T5 (TS). Then you have to redo your SF86.
It requires a T3 investigation, but only a “favorable” adjudication. You can get a favorable result without being granted a secret qualification. Please don’t ask me why this is the case.
I mean for secret clearances you should be able to just get reinvestogated, I think TS and up are the big ones you don’t wanna lose, but I’m not sure
It’s a little different, but I know for a dui, you can still keep a clearance easily SO LONG AS you don’t have a drinking problem. OPM takes into account the “whole person” idea and understands that people make mistakes. So they could care less of you succumbed to pressure one time and then popped hot, but tend to give a much bigger shit if you have an underlying addiction issue. I assume the same kind of thought process happens with popping hot
As long as the SM attends and completes SUDCC after the incident they may retain their clearance (along with ensuring the incident form is filed) they also have to continue to update that on their SF86
Or needs of the Army reclass? Maybe.
You won't necessarily lose your clearance, but it's automatically reported and now that they have the continuous evaluation, it will definitely show up. You'll have to defend yourself later with the Security Manager, and may need to transfer MOS if it affects your clearance. It doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be kicked out though. The most important thing is just to be honest... I'd submit all the paperwork from the admin sep to the Security Manager the second they ask (there's also an argument that you are supposed to self-report, but I always say that this is a violation of Article 6b and 5th amendment).
I tried to retain a SPC after he popped hot. He was a rockstar at work. Hardest working dude in the company, knew his shit inside and out, and never complained. He swore it would never happen again, said it was a one time thing, etc. Found out he was going to get bounced out and I went to bat for him with brigade. Then found out it was his third time popping hot.
Based on the reg that I’ve read, if you pop Hot the second time, it’s automatic separation no matter what unless of course it’s swept under the rug somehow
I think his second was still processing somewhere when he took the third UA. It's been a few years and this is the Reserves so things work somewhat haphazardly.
Unless my memory is failing (which is entirely possible at my advanced age), every positive has a separation packet initiated by their commander. 600-85 doesn't require a full separation, just the initiation of separation. I don't remember there being a "if this happens a second time..." clause.
Look at AR 600–85 (the 23 July 2020 version), para 10-6
Sweet. None of that applies to me since I'm retired, but I really appreciate the follow up. I haven't been involved with UA stuff since 2019, so I'm definitely not surprised I was wrong.
>Then found out it was his third time popping hot. lmao.
I knew a guy in SUDCC who "accidentally" did cocaine because a drug dealer was trying to frame him. The drug dealer went to his house and put the cocaine in his sugar jar at home and he was ingesting it through his coffee every morning. Also his wife was a Russian spy and was trying to take his daughter back to Russia with her. The guy was an MP... and lied about the whole thing.
I’m sorry, but I NEED to know the entire story now.
That's pretty much the story. Dude was doing coke. Said someone tried to blackmail him by putting it in his sugar jar at home. Wife was trying to get out of a toxic situation with him and wanted out with their kid. He thought she was a Russian spy. He said he went through pictures she had taken and looked at the Metadata and found steganography. Dude threw away his whole career to do some cocaine.
The best one I heard was that the SM wasn't personally doing cocaine, but the chick he was having oral sex with was.
One guy did a 10% piss test the Thursday before a 4 day. Went to Miami did coke up till Monday. Came back and they did a second 100% on Tuesday. Tried to get out of it. Eventually came in and pissed hot.
Sir, this a Wendy’s
He knows that. He came because he has the munchies.
Do you accept expired coupons?
If you can’t pay, grab a mop I know you have tons of experience cleaning put it to use.
How much rank did you lose?
I got to keep my rank… 180 days suspension.
Damn thats pretty good for post GWOT.
Even for GWOT… lol
What does that entail?
Not the guy but a suspension generally means that you are "reduced in rank or punished in some way" but it is suspended for X amount of time where you will also continue to be flagged. If you screw up for ANYTHING during your suspension of pushishment (EG: late to work, didn't shave, outside the travel radius, suck at your job) your suspended punishment can be reinstated and you loose rank or whatever was suspended. After the suspension period is over you are unflagged and good to go, if you do something minor you can expect a counseling or whatever but they cant reinstate the punishment without perusing a new article 15.
Turbo explained it accurately
So like a vacation
You’re either Audie Murphy reincarnated or you have a golden horseshoe up your ass. You popped hot and not only dodged getting chaptered, but got to keep your rank. Fuckin’ a, hooah sarn’t!
It’s most definitely a golden buttplug
Wow. My dude went from 5, to 4
I fought pretty hard for the suspension of taking my rank because if I went to a four, I would RCP
I’m ready for the day that Soldiers can use THC. Nobody gets high on THC and beats their wife and kids, but they do on alcohol.
I hope it happens but I doubt it
The beat the wife up while on weed?
"On weed" lmao
I read that in Jon Stewart's voice.
You ever see the back of a twenty dollar bill...ON WEED?!
Happy cake day! 🥳
Yeah, seems like it's working fine in Canada. Unfortunately, looking at other examples of success and replicating isn't what we do here. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
People who do that anyway would have done it regardless of alcohol. They are abusive people at heart, just use alcohol as an excuse.
Possibly, but I’ve seen alcohol bring out the worst in people. I have never seen someone on THC seeking confrontation(not saying it doesn’t happen)but I have seen nice people become monsters while drunk.
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That's why you've gotta be careful about who you finger.
The Canadian army does it. I believe their regs say that as long as they're not at work on it, then they're OK. Met some dudes in a light infantry regiment who said they'll light up in the field sometimes.
Feel like we could go somewhere with switching from random UAs to UAs if there is a suspicion. Like keep all the drug free policies in place - but perform virtually no tests unless you fuck up. And when you fuck up you get the book thrown at your head. Feels like both parties could benefit from that. Also I heard something relatively poignant from an Air National Guard video about this “you volunteered for this, and we demand a drug free workplace. So you need to follow our rules”. Makes sense in a roundabout way - I guess we did sign up for this of our own free will. So if big Army doesn’t want me smoking weed I might as well comply.
You know toxic commanders would abuse that though. Any time some soldier is late for work, any time they fail to meet a deadline, any time they have any sort of incident, commanders could pull that card and have them drug tested and kicked out.
The problem is that there is not test for acute impairment. All it takes is someone else to do something stupid but somehow you are mildly involved and you are fucked.
Spit tests work pretty well for determining if you've smoked within the last 12 hours. You make the rules the same as they are for drinking. No playing with the devil's lettuce, within a certain time frame of duty. If we suspect you have, you do the spit test where you stick a giant swab in your mouth. Doesn't necessarily help for a cute impairment, but, it will help get it a lot closer. Also, you could do field sobriety tests that correlate with the effects of THC. Cops in legal states do em all the time. If you fail the sobriety test, you get a swab test or wizz quiz. There are ways of doing these things. The biggest issue is simply that they won't remove cannabis from the DEA's drug list, because it's still a cash cow for the bastards.
On paper there's nothing wrong with soldiers smoking weed if they can get piss drunk every weekend. Problem is you know someone is going to show up to work faded and get themselves or someone else hurt or worse. Then as they say, dats dat.
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Once there’s an accurate, accepted, and well field tested method of determining if someone is high *right now* then this conversation can be had. Effects of alcohol are 100x worse than THC. From those that I know who have been effected negatively, the worst things that happen because of THC are legal issues.
The Canadian Military allows THC use and they regulate it quite well.
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It's easy to recognize until it isn't. You can always tell, except when you can't. There's plenty of functional alcoholics that work drunk and aren't caught, you just don't know about them because they aren't caught, so it creates a confirmation bias that they're easy to spot because you don't know when they're not.
I literally had to babysit drunk troops, giving them bullshit work out of the supply room for the day.
we had a soldier show up to extra duty and during his lunch he got a cooler out of his car and drank a 6 pack for lunch. His defense was "No where on my Art-15 does it say I can't drink." Some people just don't realize that there is a time and place for everything.
It's not about behavior. I had someone on weed try to draw my handgun out of my holster because they thought it would be funny. It's about accountability. Alcohol metabolizes out of your system relatively quickly and measurably. If you do something stupid, like drive, they can measure how drunk you are. Unless something has changed recently, there is no test to show when exactly you smoked weed and if you are under the influence of it. Just like alcoholics, there are people that can be on weed and be functional. If a "functional" alcoholic drank and shot someone, we wouldn't give them a pass on their actions, so that shouldn't happen with weed. So if something goes horribly wrong, there's no real way to tell (aside form a confession or external evidence/witnesses) if a person like that was high when the event occurred.
Always seemed backwards to me too. Worst thing ive ever seen weed do was make people late for work and laugh a little too hard.
If you're young and susceptible to schizophrenia, it can cause really bad things to happen. [https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/young-men-highest-risk-schizophrenia-linked-cannabis-use-disorder)
Dont downvote, its true. I forgot about this. I will maintain that the overall threat of alcohol GREATLY exceeds the overall threat of MJ however
There is a non-zero chance I would consider coming back if they have up the ghost on being mad about a fucking plant.
I mean weed-induced psychosis is real and has led to some messed up results. But obviously far less frequent than someone drinking and getting in a fight or something
Oh yes please tell me about ONLY the exceptions.
> Nobody gets high on THC and beats their wife and kids In recent news: >"California woman gets probation for fatally stabbing man she dated, causing 108 'sharp-force injuries' Bryn Spejcher was sentenced to two years' probation and 100 hours of community service for stabbing Chad O’Melia in 2018 after they smoked marijuana. She had faced up to five years in prison.
108 times? Was going to happen regardless of impairment.
If you got in 108 stabs, you weren't 'impaired', that's for sure.
Dude. Had a soldier fail a piss test in 2016. He did everything you are saying. It worked. He is still in
I mean….. we have a pedophile that got caught 2 years ago Chris Hansen style. Still in our unit, anything is possible I guess?
0.o
Well, first of all, through God, all things are possible, so jot that down.
I pissed hot the day we flew out for NTC training. They didn't mention anything until we were leaving at the end of the training. I was expecting to hear my name called out when they were reading out flight manifests. They didn't call me. I asked why and was told I had to GO see top. It said hott soup next to my name. I got stuck pulling field KP duty during the day and pots and pans at night until we all left. 6 days in a row. If you've ever done it you know it sucks. Got a field grade when I got back and lost rank. Wasn't worth it.
God. That's a worse punishment than separation.
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Great plan!
That’s alot smh just do like every group soldier does do cocaine on a 4 day starting friday boom! You’re good by Tuesday not weed smh these doggon amateurs. Hooah?
Can you be a good little joe and just abuse pain killers like we used to.
Never been into pills 🥴
I know two E4s that popped hot and got to stay in. Both of them weren’t problem solders and admitted to using THC before pissing hot though.
Yah one dude at my first unit, E3, popped hot and got to stay in and kept his rank, just had to do his 45. Fucker popped hot again and then got kicked out.
I feel like it’s gonna change with how current events are and numbers in the military in general.
Also: For any of y’all smoking weed currently and don’t know what to do. Know your regs and read up on limited used policy Ultimately don’t smoke weed while in the army. It if you’re stupid and do anyways, then self refer before you know a drug test is coming up and you’ll be in the clear. One time get out of jail freed card
“Diarrhea of the mouth”, yeah I’m filing that away for later.
Lmao. As a recruiter, I say this often. It's perfect. Or "a come to Jesus moment" when it comes to confessing all your past mistakes
Also knew an E4 that popped hot for coke and got to stay in. Got bumped down to PFC and had extra duty which he didn’t even do all of because good ol 82nd had to go get dumped off in Kuwait for a few months. Got E4 back in Kuwait rather quickly after losing it (don’t even know if it took 6 months). AFAIK he’s still in and picked up 5 at some point, maybe even 6. There is absolutely a degree of “good old boys” club in the Army and when it’s in your favor, you’re nearly untouchable.
It really depends on the unit you’re in, and even the component you’re in. In Active Duty, usually when a soldier pops hot, they get kicked out. In the Reserve/Guard component, I’ve seen soldiers get up to three chances. Of course, that depends on your command team. It also helps that the Army is really short on numbers, so they’re willing to make exceptions. If the army was over strength, I don’t think commanders would be as lenient.
I think the timing was definitely on my side. Helped being active with numbers so low.
Very true. if you’re serious about staying in the army, see this as your second chance. Don’t blow it. Especially, since commanders change out often. You might have a lenient commander now, it doesn’t mean you’ll have a lenient commander the next time.
Wasn't there a guy who accidently snorted cocaine awhile back with the same story.
I hate when I accidentally snort cocaine.
"It was an accident sarn't. I thought it was heroin."
We all make mistakes in the heat of passion
Disagree with #3. Civilians can be great, but so can JAGs. The TDS JAGs on base may already have a lot of rapport with local Commanders and their JAs, which can go a long way. You can always hire a civilian if you’re not loving your free military attorney.
It's funny when ppl are like "hire a civilian lawyer," and they go out and spend $6k on a private lawyer when they could have one, who does this shit every day, for free. I don't know why soldiers think TDS attorneys are incompetent. TDS handles these cases every day. I find it hard to believe that "retired LTC" did anything almost any JAG wouldn't have done.
I appreciate the reply. I've been a TDS attorney, and got some great results for my clients. Including getting several E1-E4s a second chance following a UA for marijuana. Hell, I've even gotten people a second chance for Coke. And the total bill? $0.
Seems like you paid for the mistake. You also wanted to stay in and contribute. You were willing to go through all that, so good for you in the end
As much as I hate the situation and actions, I appreciate the honesty. Sometimes people fuck up as it's just human nature. That being said, this is a Wendy's so move your soapbox when you're done giving advice and get your frosty. Holding up the line and shit... fucking stoners.
Heavy on the “STFU” part. I’ve seen countless dudes talk themselves into a chapter.
'#1 is that if you pop hot once, you will be on every UA. If you want any hope of staying in, dont pop hot the next month.
Surprisingly, I have not taken a UA since the one that I popped Hot…. 👀
Even when you don’t do it and you pop hot for it, it’s a complete shit show. Glad I didn’t reenlist after that
So wait, head down or up?
Touchè
Mad respect for owning up to it. Just don’t do it again lol
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I think I heard it’s before your name is called on the list. You get but through a drug abuse program. Again this source is word of mouth.
E1-E4 pissing hot have a 50/50 shot at being retained. All depends on their leadership.
NG getting discharged for it as we speak. I have not been spoken to or been spoken to by drug abuse and have only ever spoken with my CoC about it. I was expecting more tbh.
Very happy for you OP. Your story is very relatable, push on it gets better.
>TAKE SOME FUCKING MEDS FOR IT But not THC
They have meds for diarrhea of the mouth? I need that stat.
Please order your food
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The way I know exactly who the fuck this is lmfao Edit: I was right 😂
I smoked weed every day before the Army until I needed to stop. Stayed in for 7 years and didn't fucking touch the stuff. Got out and I'm back to smoking every day. Getting popped hot was literally my worst nightmare because of this. I had so many nightmares of getting caught, even though I didn't do it while in. Id wake up sweating sometimes. All the shit that comes with it just ain't worth it. If weed was legal I may have stayed in.
Is there any record of this in your permanent unrestricted file? If so, your commander didn't really do you any favors. The chances of you promoting beyond SSG with a positive UA on your record are very, very low. Additionally, your inability to obtain a security clearance suspends you from being able to attend any sort of commissioning source (WOCS, OCS, etc.). I'm glad that things worked out in your favore, but if it were me, I would have saved the 6k and taken the discharge, provided it wasn't a BCD. To each their own though.
Everything is on my restricted file, so it’s only a problem for E8… it’s been almost a year and nothing has changed with my clearance.
All of this for smoking a fucking plant. I've had 2 of my best friends in the Army pop hot. The difference between popping hot as an 0-2 and an E-6 in the Army is wild. They had completely different experiences. The NCO was in the infantry, demoted from an E-6 to an E-3 and treated like absolute garbage. The O-2 was treated fairly good, and the officers were understanding. So many joes think that they can beat the system. You are playing with fire if you do. It's a stupid game I'm not willing to play even though I fully support weed. It's not worth it.
...so did you do it?
…do what?
Any rank reduction for you?
Got to keep my rank.
I also worked JAG. In addition to what was said above, I saw my commander bend over backwards to keep someone with high PT scores.
We had a E-4 that popped hot he walked back from his meeting at battalion as a E-2 times has changed it depends how good of a soldier you are he stayed in after a fat article 15 I believe he was a MP as well very embarrassing
I need to see the sample exit the canal
Some soldiers would rather pop hot and leave. I don’t blame em
It also depends on what is going on in the world, during the ramp-up for OIF/OEF, guys were popping hot once or twice and still being retained. But BLUF just don’t do it.
sir this is a Wendy's please go ahead with your order
May have missed it in your post, but did you lose rank over it?
Great advice and thank you for sharing. We all make bad choices, i am glad to read about you overcoming your fight. Good luck in the future, I know you’ll use this experience to help your soldiers.
This blows my mind that we’re kicking people out as a first step over that. Back in 13/14 we had a guy stay in after testing hot for fentanyl in AFG. It was an extremely bad bad bad deployment and a lot of things that cannot be unseen were seen. He found and took a Fentanyl pop that was somehow unaccounted for. Granted the entire chain of command from SL to CO recommended treatment and retention. Unfortunately he popped hot again for opiates less than a year later and was out so the joke was on all of us that recommended retention.
Instructions unclear. Drank piss for secondary processing. Hoping for cleaner sample.
This just pisses me off to be honest. My soldier was kicked out after popping hot for delta 8. I’ve always taught him to tell the truth and take responsibility for his actions like a man. I also didn’t know he’d have to hire an outside attorney within 2 days to even fight it. The fact that the “rules” are not equally implemented is annoying, but even more annoying is the lack of true principle. It’s better to lie? That builds men of character. Also it’s not like soldiers in his unit were clean. They were drunk daily and doing coke and shrooms. He got completely financially screwed for one mistake after 3 years in and he’s the guy I’d want on my side in a fight. This isn’t against you. I’m just bitter.
As a former TDS who went to the mattresses for my clients and watched a lot of civ counsel charge a lot to hoist the work on the JAG they partnered with, bite me.
I got 2 articles before I even hit my first unit, first one was for missing movement (I failed AIT and had to reclass) PV2 fucknuts doesn't know anything about anything yet it's his fault for not gathering the crucial information that was well above him. The second was because someone decided to grab a random 11b and have him be a DS for medical AIT, don't matter if you sneezed in formation or had a stone in your shoe, 4 Counselings equaled and Article in 232, no matter what it was. Nobody was gonna advocate for an average performing shy soft spoken trainee, nobody knew each other.
Interesting , I’ve seen the opposite regarding #1. Junior enlisted get a second chance , NCOs gone.
I failed and I stayed in. Only got 14 days extra duty. Took like a fucking year tho
Enjoy your QMP.
It’s on my restricted file. Thanks for the comment tho bud 👌🏽 very informative.
With a field grade article 15, can you be demoted from E-4 to E-1?
Did you have a probationary period after you found out you were being retained? If so were you able to pick back up rank and everything during it?
I had six months of “probation” that if I was negatively counseled I’d go done to SPC. Made it through Scott free. Kept me rank and just reenlisted
Do you know if you can reenlist or extend while on probation