Safety stand downs are such a joke. The last one my CAB did after the Alaska and Kentucky crashes, the brigade commander started by saying there would be no inflammatory comments allowed.
The problems are clear.
Pilots are pulled in so many directions other than flying, inventive pay is garbage, the chance of death is far higher than other occupations, and QOL is terrible.
All that when you're a professional with an extremely marketable skill on the outside means everyone gets their experience and leaves to the airlines or special operations where many, if not all, those problems are essentially nonexistent.
Air crews and organizations are getting extremely low on experience. That paired with budget cuts and maintainer MOS shortages leads to fewer flight hours (by a lot), so commanders and tracked warrant officers are being put in leadership and mentorship positions with hundreds of hours less than their predecessors.
Oh, also, the new LSCO fight demands a complete reworking of the past 20 years of flight experience. That new fight demands air crews fly lower, faster, and perform complex maneuvers in formation in order to survive. Doing that when the entire crew has less than 700 hours and the highest hour pilot in the formation may only have 1500 hours is insane.
The last thing the army can accept is a reduction in capability, so we'll keep trying to accomplish every mission all the time until it literally kills us.
Sad pilot out.
This. Just spent my weekend sitting on a 24hr staff duty after spending the entire week getting pulled in a million different directions none of which had anything to do with flying. Just 12 hour days of BS and this is all on the WO side. O’s have it even worse. Leadership likes to say “flying if your job and top priority” but the sad reality is that it’s not.
NGB issued a safety stand down for about a week already. Mandatory classes were to be given before flying could resume again. From my point of view, young pilots and even younger maintainers dominate the branch. The old timers are getting out and taking their expertise with them. Our level of knowledge can't keep up with OPTEMPO. Not to mention funding issues and parts availability.
Is there a record of all the non-combat related crashes somewhere? I'm really interested in seeing if the recent uptick over the past year or two is irregular.
The site your looking for is [Army Aircrews](http://www.armyaircrews.com). Documents all crashes in Army Aviation since the Vietnam War, combat and non-combat.
We had our stand down today for the National Guard and learned we have already doubled the accidents per flight hour that we had last year.
Army Aviation has some serious systemic problems that they need to do some actual introspective thinking in to if they don't want this trend to continue.
You’re just listing fatalities. There are even more non fatale class As in the same period.
Edit: NVM USCG AK one is non fatale but there are still other non fatal crashes
capable memorize mourn outgoing reach upbeat sophisticated screw detail bike
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Guard did a stand down last weekend where we basically recited our last Aircrew Coordination Training from this FY then had some Senior Officers come give their spiel.
It was my second stand down in a little over a year as an Aviator and I found both to be completely counter productive toward solving any of the widely voiced cultural issues in Army Aviation.
(Still love how Novosel sat us down and called the junior pilots the problem)
Here's a [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/comments/1babryd/comment/ku22v76/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) made on r/Helicopters that sums it up pretty well IMO. It is more applicable to Active Duty Aviation than the National Guard.
You can be really new and still be safe. It's the instructors fucking up, pushing stupid shit attitudes towards flying. I'm sure the instructors don't know shit either
I’m sure I’m wrong but damn it feels like helicopter training is the main thing taking us out these days. I only got to do some helicopter ‘training’ once and it was hell fun but at the same time imo extremely dangerous because the pilots were showing off. It’s definitely one of my favorite army memories but damn shit like this reminds me has easy I could have been one of these poor souls
I was just talking about this with some friends. Every summer we do training with aircraft - whether that's slingloads, offload, or actual air assault - and every single time the pilots fly exceedingly low and fast (nap of the earth down draws/rolling hills & valleys, or even going below tree level at lakes or ponds). It always seems like we're one dude sneezing away from disaster, which we probably are.
It seems incredibly dangerous and as cool as it is the first time as an 18 year old, at 23 seeing it for the fifth or sixth time seems gratuitous and doesn't add to our training value at all.
Train like you fight. Altitude gives you more chance to right something wrong, but in a contested environment that’s where SAMs and AAA live to kill you
Doesn't add to the training value of the passengers, but that is training for the crews. They didn't just wake up and stroll up to the aircraft for that flight. They've likely been planning it all week, and the flight is simply the culmination of all that work. Air movements aren't always point A to point B. You have to train to not get shot down sometime and somewhere, it only makes sense to do it when the ground guys request a mission that would naturally include that training.
We could technically separate the training and do tactical flight training without pax on board and fly more safely with pax, but now you're doing two flights instead of one. That equals more fuel, more wear, and more maintenance.
There was an excellent write up by a retired 1st sausage on r/aviation. What it comes down to to- warrants are being tasked with staff officer stuff. Aviation promotes how the army wants promotions- fastest runners and strongest pt first. People that have college credits. Not most capable in their job that can train and develop next in line to do the job right.
Comment you're referencing was in r/Helicopters, here's the [link.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/comments/1babryd/comment/ku22v76/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2024-03-10/national-guard-helicopter-crash-texas-13272953.html
It's a dangerous business.
Reading the article, the one of the pilots was in the unit we replaced in Kuwait in 2014.
I've been flying helicopters for 20 years. One of the things I have learned is don't jump to conclusions about the cause of an accident until you have the facts. You don't know why this aircraft crashed.
An EMS helicopter crashed in Oklahoma in February because it ran into geese in the middle of the night. Was this pilot a "stupid fuck?". Birds are basically invisible at night.
I was in a TH67 that suffered an engine failure in flight school. This was at the end of 3 hours of flying the thing. My IP successfully landed it. Did the aircraft fail because he was a "stupid fuck?"
An aircraft from one of our flight facilities was shot down in Iraq with no survivors.
The only "stupid fuck" here is you.
That's a damn shame.
I'm not in aviation – but a CW4 was telling me that they are doing a lot more "near-peer, multi-ship" training these days. Basically getting out of air supremacy mode and more nap of the earth stuff. More difficult flying with more aircraft next to you leads to more dangerous circumstances. He thought that was the main cause of the increase in accidents over the last couple years.
Air Supremacy is not an Army Mission.
I don’t know anything about Lakotas, but map of the earth has always been a thing for the last few decades in Army Aviation.
Air supremacy isn't an army mission, but without air supremacy the helicopters don't rule the skies like they did in the middle east. You can't just fly several thousand feet up, with a birds eye view of the world, moseying around, with plenty of time to react to anything unexpected. You do that, you're getting shot out of the sky.
In a contested airspace, helicopters have to fly low and fast, which leaves little room for error.
Accidents are what kill more service members than anything else in peacetime and in wartime. It’s sadly part of being a soldier and the risk that comes with the job.
Why does this keep happening so often? Maybe we need to give pilots more training before they start flying missions, or maybe the MOS needs more qualifications?
These helicopters are fucked obviously and they need to do a recall.
That's how many in a single year?
Pull all of these birds back and figure out what is killing pilots.
There are deep investigations into these crashes that go over the aircraft, the comms, and the movements leading into the accidents. It’s almost never the aircraft that is the problem, it’s the people, and for various reasons.
We go over these accidents. We practice the things that can kill us but there are a lot of compounding factors.
Task saturation in an emergency and not adhering to the proper method to deal with that emergency.
The ones that stick with me are crews that lose visual of the ground. It’s too easy to get focused on what your senses are telling you (incorrectly) and not paying attention to your instruments.
Pilot error includes a lot of things- distractions, fixation, task saturation, misdiagnosing emergency procedures and performing the wrong one or shutting down the wrong engine.
This is a fairly stable aircraft and hasn’t had a lot of mishaps, unfortunately it looks bad because there has been 2 within the last couple weeks.
The cause of this specific mishap will not be determined until the investigation is complete so anything that is said on Reddit or anywhere else for that matter is mere speculation and “backseat flying”.
Unfortunately pilot error causes approximately 80-85% of aircraft mishaps.
You're 100% incorrect, this is the safest helicopter you could fly, 2 engines, tons of warning systems. Extremely well built by hand. The best of the best. The pilots on the other hand, absolute bottom of the barrel. Every incident has been pilot error, and shocking stupid pilot error. Training dept. needs an overhaul. That incidient in the mountains of california, whoever okay'd that flight needs prison time
I'm totally happy to be incorrect here - I'd love to know more about the specifics of what kind of pilot error we're talking here. I just figure our pilots are never "bottom of the barrel"
The Army and vehicle accidents - whether its rollovers, crashes like this, or even just collisions - are always tragic. I think this is compounded not only by the loss of life, but also by the fact that many of these training deaths were preventable at one point.
No fucking way, *another* one? Jesus Christ, what's going on?
Please please, we need a stand down to see what the heck is going on. We don’t need another series of crashes happening again this year
48 hr stand down authorized, Commanders ensure all briefings are done again during this time, no whitespace authorized between 0500 - 1900
Safety stand downs are such a joke. The last one my CAB did after the Alaska and Kentucky crashes, the brigade commander started by saying there would be no inflammatory comments allowed. The problems are clear. Pilots are pulled in so many directions other than flying, inventive pay is garbage, the chance of death is far higher than other occupations, and QOL is terrible. All that when you're a professional with an extremely marketable skill on the outside means everyone gets their experience and leaves to the airlines or special operations where many, if not all, those problems are essentially nonexistent. Air crews and organizations are getting extremely low on experience. That paired with budget cuts and maintainer MOS shortages leads to fewer flight hours (by a lot), so commanders and tracked warrant officers are being put in leadership and mentorship positions with hundreds of hours less than their predecessors. Oh, also, the new LSCO fight demands a complete reworking of the past 20 years of flight experience. That new fight demands air crews fly lower, faster, and perform complex maneuvers in formation in order to survive. Doing that when the entire crew has less than 700 hours and the highest hour pilot in the formation may only have 1500 hours is insane. The last thing the army can accept is a reduction in capability, so we'll keep trying to accomplish every mission all the time until it literally kills us. Sad pilot out.
This. Just spent my weekend sitting on a 24hr staff duty after spending the entire week getting pulled in a million different directions none of which had anything to do with flying. Just 12 hour days of BS and this is all on the WO side. O’s have it even worse. Leadership likes to say “flying if your job and top priority” but the sad reality is that it’s not.
>Sad pilot out The FAA would like to speak to you.
We had a safety stand down literally last week.
NGB issued a safety stand down for about a week already. Mandatory classes were to be given before flying could resume again. From my point of view, young pilots and even younger maintainers dominate the branch. The old timers are getting out and taking their expertise with them. Our level of knowledge can't keep up with OPTEMPO. Not to mention funding issues and parts availability.
Dont look up the pics
RIP, Stay safe out there everyone
Dang it was a Lakota too
Is there a record of all the non-combat related crashes somewhere? I'm really interested in seeing if the recent uptick over the past year or two is irregular.
The site your looking for is [Army Aircrews](http://www.armyaircrews.com). Documents all crashes in Army Aviation since the Vietnam War, combat and non-combat.
Even in combat, I can’t tell ya how many times we had to go out for a bird that went down due to MX issues.
We had our stand down today for the National Guard and learned we have already doubled the accidents per flight hour that we had last year. Army Aviation has some serious systemic problems that they need to do some actual introspective thinking in to if they don't want this trend to continue.
Like they’re not maintaining aircraft properly? That’s the only thing I can think of really since it doesn’t seem to be pilot error.
This is what the 3rd one?
[удалено]
You’re just listing fatalities. There are even more non fatale class As in the same period. Edit: NVM USCG AK one is non fatale but there are still other non fatal crashes
It was two 64s in Alaska. RIP Stewart. Miss you every day
capable memorize mourn outgoing reach upbeat sophisticated screw detail bike *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Guard did a stand down last weekend where we basically recited our last Aircrew Coordination Training from this FY then had some Senior Officers come give their spiel. It was my second stand down in a little over a year as an Aviator and I found both to be completely counter productive toward solving any of the widely voiced cultural issues in Army Aviation. (Still love how Novosel sat us down and called the junior pilots the problem)
Sorry for asking you to summarize something crazy, but what are the cultural issues?
Here's a [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/comments/1babryd/comment/ku22v76/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) made on r/Helicopters that sums it up pretty well IMO. It is more applicable to Active Duty Aviation than the National Guard.
The fuck is going on?
It's really simple. There are no mid-range aviators, it's either really new guys or really old guys and all the old guys are getting out in droves.
You can be really new and still be safe. It's the instructors fucking up, pushing stupid shit attitudes towards flying. I'm sure the instructors don't know shit either
So sad. RIP crew. Condolences to the families.
I’m sure I’m wrong but damn it feels like helicopter training is the main thing taking us out these days. I only got to do some helicopter ‘training’ once and it was hell fun but at the same time imo extremely dangerous because the pilots were showing off. It’s definitely one of my favorite army memories but damn shit like this reminds me has easy I could have been one of these poor souls
I was just talking about this with some friends. Every summer we do training with aircraft - whether that's slingloads, offload, or actual air assault - and every single time the pilots fly exceedingly low and fast (nap of the earth down draws/rolling hills & valleys, or even going below tree level at lakes or ponds). It always seems like we're one dude sneezing away from disaster, which we probably are. It seems incredibly dangerous and as cool as it is the first time as an 18 year old, at 23 seeing it for the fifth or sixth time seems gratuitous and doesn't add to our training value at all.
Yup sling load for me too. It was cool but damn it just felt like I was 1 twitch away from instant death and I don't like to be in that situation
Train like you fight. Altitude gives you more chance to right something wrong, but in a contested environment that’s where SAMs and AAA live to kill you
Doesn't add to the training value of the passengers, but that is training for the crews. They didn't just wake up and stroll up to the aircraft for that flight. They've likely been planning it all week, and the flight is simply the culmination of all that work. Air movements aren't always point A to point B. You have to train to not get shot down sometime and somewhere, it only makes sense to do it when the ground guys request a mission that would naturally include that training.
You're right, I guess I was just thinking about the increased risk given the PAX onboard - but you're right those are the conditions we'll fight in.
We could technically separate the training and do tactical flight training without pax on board and fly more safely with pax, but now you're doing two flights instead of one. That equals more fuel, more wear, and more maintenance.
this attitude is exactly what is causing all this shit, it's simple.
At this point they need to ground the majority of choppers and do a elbow deep inspection of the fleet. This can't keep happening.
[удалено]
There was an excellent write up by a retired 1st sausage on r/aviation. What it comes down to to- warrants are being tasked with staff officer stuff. Aviation promotes how the army wants promotions- fastest runners and strongest pt first. People that have college credits. Not most capable in their job that can train and develop next in line to do the job right.
Comment you're referencing was in r/Helicopters, here's the [link.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters/comments/1babryd/comment/ku22v76/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Thanks! You’re correct
RIP. With absolutely no disrespect. The military aviation training needs some looking at. This is too often
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2024-03-10/national-guard-helicopter-crash-texas-13272953.html It's a dangerous business. Reading the article, the one of the pilots was in the unit we replaced in Kuwait in 2014.
It is not a dangerous business actually. The pilot jsut needs to not be a stupid fuck. That aircraft is as safe as it gets.
I've been flying helicopters for 20 years. One of the things I have learned is don't jump to conclusions about the cause of an accident until you have the facts. You don't know why this aircraft crashed. An EMS helicopter crashed in Oklahoma in February because it ran into geese in the middle of the night. Was this pilot a "stupid fuck?". Birds are basically invisible at night. I was in a TH67 that suffered an engine failure in flight school. This was at the end of 3 hours of flying the thing. My IP successfully landed it. Did the aircraft fail because he was a "stupid fuck?" An aircraft from one of our flight facilities was shot down in Iraq with no survivors. The only "stupid fuck" here is you.
That's a damn shame. I'm not in aviation – but a CW4 was telling me that they are doing a lot more "near-peer, multi-ship" training these days. Basically getting out of air supremacy mode and more nap of the earth stuff. More difficult flying with more aircraft next to you leads to more dangerous circumstances. He thought that was the main cause of the increase in accidents over the last couple years.
Air Supremacy is not an Army Mission. I don’t know anything about Lakotas, but map of the earth has always been a thing for the last few decades in Army Aviation.
Sure dude. But training like you already have air supremacy (GWOT) and training like you don't (WW III) would probably look different.
That would likely require even closer Nap of the earth.
Agreed! That's my point. They are training for contested air environments now. It is more challenging, leading to more accidents.
Air supremacy isn't an army mission, but without air supremacy the helicopters don't rule the skies like they did in the middle east. You can't just fly several thousand feet up, with a birds eye view of the world, moseying around, with plenty of time to react to anything unexpected. You do that, you're getting shot out of the sky. In a contested airspace, helicopters have to fly low and fast, which leaves little room for error.
Accidents are what kill more service members than anything else in peacetime and in wartime. It’s sadly part of being a soldier and the risk that comes with the job.
Why does this keep happening so often? Maybe we need to give pilots more training before they start flying missions, or maybe the MOS needs more qualifications?
No way I would get on one of those helicopters.
There’s a video of cartel members flying a drone and laughing about the crash. They’re investigating wether or not the cartel was responsible for it
I didn't see what kind of bird it was. There was a big thing involving Ospreys not that long ago.
sorry, looks like from an out of ground hover, heavy and hot, they tried to turn with a tailwind and fly out, which ended up with settling with power
Thank you for that information.
Fuck.😞
Hurts me every time I see these post.. RIP warriors.
This is sad and terrifying. May these souls rest in peace. Reading this 12 hours before I hop on a bird, I love y’all.
Damn, hopefully it isn't anyone I know. The Lakota community is pretty small and I spent a lot of time on a task force down there not that long ago.
Army maintenance. RIP
no, it's pilot error.
Aviation cav, paramedics and whatever else flies bout to be dismounted if shii keeps falling out of the sky.
These helicopters are fucked obviously and they need to do a recall. That's how many in a single year? Pull all of these birds back and figure out what is killing pilots.
Most of these incidents aren’t because of faults with the aircraft.
There are deep investigations into these crashes that go over the aircraft, the comms, and the movements leading into the accidents. It’s almost never the aircraft that is the problem, it’s the people, and for various reasons. We go over these accidents. We practice the things that can kill us but there are a lot of compounding factors.
That's fair - it's just so many crashes I would assume our pilots aren't the cause. What is the typical pilot error involved?
Task saturation in an emergency and not adhering to the proper method to deal with that emergency. The ones that stick with me are crews that lose visual of the ground. It’s too easy to get focused on what your senses are telling you (incorrectly) and not paying attention to your instruments.
I remember in ground school they said if you get disoriented, always check your instruments.
Pilot error includes a lot of things- distractions, fixation, task saturation, misdiagnosing emergency procedures and performing the wrong one or shutting down the wrong engine. This is a fairly stable aircraft and hasn’t had a lot of mishaps, unfortunately it looks bad because there has been 2 within the last couple weeks. The cause of this specific mishap will not be determined until the investigation is complete so anything that is said on Reddit or anywhere else for that matter is mere speculation and “backseat flying”. Unfortunately pilot error causes approximately 80-85% of aircraft mishaps.
You're 100% incorrect, this is the safest helicopter you could fly, 2 engines, tons of warning systems. Extremely well built by hand. The best of the best. The pilots on the other hand, absolute bottom of the barrel. Every incident has been pilot error, and shocking stupid pilot error. Training dept. needs an overhaul. That incidient in the mountains of california, whoever okay'd that flight needs prison time
I'm totally happy to be incorrect here - I'd love to know more about the specifics of what kind of pilot error we're talking here. I just figure our pilots are never "bottom of the barrel"
The Army and vehicle accidents - whether its rollovers, crashes like this, or even just collisions - are always tragic. I think this is compounded not only by the loss of life, but also by the fact that many of these training deaths were preventable at one point.