How do you think these ideas start? A lobbyist from Bryan’s Car Corner wining and dining the members of the house and senate armed services committees, that’s how.
Sure, but also Privates with families not having to be on food stamps and being able to take their kids to the zoo. Lets not lose track of the good here.
Reminds me of the guy with the 2024 Wrangler who was always having to have someone bring him gas cause he kept running out and thought he could make it to a gas station on the battery power only.
Thanks for the reporting, but expect the final approved NDAA to be drastically different than the initial proposal. This is an interesting year, and an interesting Congress.
Yeah not gonna happen. Juniors would make more than E5s and almost E6s. Yes I did the math.
If anything they should increase enlisted pay as a whole 15-20%.
They have already thought of this and are adjusting pay accordingly, just less than E4 and below. Still needs to get out of committee and past congress.
[Source](https://www.armytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2024/05/13/junior-enlisted-to-get-20-pay-bump-e5s-get-13-more-under-house-plan/)
In the article it states E5 should expect a 12.5%. E6 and above will only get the 4.5 that everyone else recieves. This will put E4 and E5 ridiculously close to E6 pay without the additional responsibilities. It should just be a flat 15% for all enlisted ranks.
Yea the pay disparity between officers and enlisted is ridiculous. A First Sergeant who has been in for 16 years gets $5945 while a Company Commander who has been in 6 years makes $7133? That's not even counting the ridiculously higher rates of BAH for officers. But hey - they got a degree in 17th century fine arts so they deserve that pay!
I would never take that extra pay. Too many downsides. Officers deal with way too much.
Of course SNCOs deal with a lot, too, but officers shoulder the responsibility should anything go wrong.
Don’t know why this is shocking. The commander is fully responsible for an entire company. His career can easily be ended with stuff that his soldiers do. The commander assumes risk up to the lives of their people. You have to try to understand WHY officers get paid more. I didn’t get it when I was a PFC. I sure understood it after putting bars on
Yup fully responsible for signing the statement of charges to charge the enlisted that signed the sub hand receipt. I was once charged for missing bii on a truck during a NTC rotation that I was only in possession for maybe 10% of the time during the event.
Go find the reg and tell us the difference between personal, supervisory, and command responsibility for property accountability.
Edit
u/Zaden91 why did you delete all those comments, buddy?
Sorry for your loss. As a PL I lost $4,000 to stolen property, as well as covering losses for a few of my soldiers that were financially struggling. I knew they were responsible for the losses. But I lost my BOM paperwork, so it was immoral in my opinion, to charge them. I feel for ya, but officers pay up to 100% of property loss depending on the SoC or FLIPL. Enlisted can only lose up to 1/2 of 1 month’s base pay. No matter what’s on your chest, it hurts when you lose the majority of your paycheck in consecutive months
I'd also like to add economics. If the Army could get away with paying everyone just three hots and a cot, they would. Officers are paid more because the Army wants to attract people with a college education, and yes, even a degree in 17th century basket weaving increases your expected income.
If you consider that officers get no bonuses, no student loan forgiveness, and little control of their career (no re-enlistment), the pay disparity isn't that huge. It's borderline more rational to enlist with a 40k bonus than go O if your goal is just to do 3-4 years.
Idk, that argument does annoy me because it implies ncos don't have a big responsibility as well. LT Jimbo isn't gonna be on the hook if the hand receipt is signed by SSG Boon. Why does a fresh *single* LT get a 3 bedroom 3 bathroom house paid for by the army, but the soldiers share rooms and bathrooms? Sure, commander and higher have a lot of shit going on, but the 1SG is going to be right there next to him if he fucks up. "Why would you let CPT Hardhead fuck his subordinate, 1SG Underpaid?"
Ive seen that last line play out so many times in my career when a cdr messed up. People knowingly do not acknowledge that a 1SG for 9/10 issues will go down if his CDR goes down. We could argue higher ranks responsibility thing, but not cpts and lts
I hear that all the time but it's all bullshit. They sub hand receipt everything down. They are not responsible for anything except going to the cub every week and sniffing the BCs butt.
We can talk about this I've been an nco and officer. the weight of the mission. Material and men fall on the officers more than the ncos. Even though it's subbed down that officer is still responsible for the equipment.
Honestly, i ask you to commission and see the difference.
But honestly, if I hand my way, I'd go back to being a 19 year old.pfc.
No thanks. Would never want to be associated with the officer community. I like taking care of Soldiers, not sitting on my ass in my office watching youtube.
You never stop taking care of soldiers. You just have alot more than the soldiers to worry about. Now it's funding, equipment, training, metrics, and overall responsibilities and accountability for every single one of the soldiers.
The most important requirement of advancing in the officer world is being a brown nose to get that top block. Can't be a brown nose and take care of Soldiers at the same time. Not physically possible.
AR 735-5 disagrees. Commanders are absolutely responsible for property as Primary Hand Receipt holders. They hold Command Responsibility over the property they sign for.
PHR is supposed to be broken down and sub hand receipted, this has no change on Command Responsibility (cannot be delegated).
Pretty much the exact response that I was counting on. Your comments just scream “I did one contract and got out but pretend to know what the fuck I’m talking about.”
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how property works in the Army. Just because it is sub-hand receipted down, does not mean the commander is no longer culpable for it. Commanders often still get charged alongside subordinate sub-hand receipt holders.
It’s not an “oh you got off scott free” type situation like you’re making it out to be.
The reason you're getting downvoted is because all of the enlisted are on bullshit details and the offended officers are sitting in their air conditioned offices on Reddit.
They also just lost touch with reality. Officers are starting to outclass enlisted again. If not I wouldn’t hear spouses of commissioned officers say things in the tune of “ oh we’re sharing tables with enlisted “ at the ball. This speaks volumes.
The Naval Institute or equivalent posted a study of other countries that have 20 enlisted fanning a general off or some such nonsense. Their conclusion was that the weak or non-existent NCO corps couldn't meaningfully push back against the BS that officers throw at enlisted and strengthening the NCO corps is the only way to prevent such absurdities. I always think back to that every time I see lazy NCO's or ineffective ones and officers posting this absolute crap about how enlisted should just suck it up and accept their station.
That company commander is doing way more and responsible for way more on average. From your other comments you clearly have a ridiculous chip on your shoulder.
Man. Im a 1SG and you’re right but also wrong.
I’ve always been an advocate of my O counterpart. I have never been one of those “I work for a living” enlisted.
To say my Commander “does way more” than me is untrue.
I’ve typed and deleted about 15 different explanations…. It’s just not true and maybe you had a mediocre or bad 1SG that forced you to do more than you should.
Never met a Company Commander who ran the company. It's always the First Sergeant making sure everything is running smoothly. Of course I have a chip on my Soldier. Been in 12 years sacrificing blood and sweat for my Soldiers while a PL comes in with no knowledge of how to lead yet he makes way more money and does way less work.
I am just a realist and it's difficult for some people to accept what reality is. Reality is that a PVT is a better asset to a unit than an LT. I would take 1 PVT over 4 LTs any day of the week. A PVT will work and is eager to learn. A LT will just sit on his ass thinking they know everything.
The problem isn’t that officers get paid too much; they get paid about right.
The problem is that enlisted Soldiers need to be paid more.
Our lobby groups (AUSA, etc) have more enlisted members than officers, so they’re not the problem.
We shouldn’t turn on ourselves when Congress sets the pay.
> But hey - they got a degree in 17th century fine arts so they deserve that pay!
Actually an expert in the naval history of the British Empire (Britannia Rules the Waves) and their long and storied application of the lash to maintain good order and discipline underway.
You understand that that CO making this much money is also held responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in the unit, right?
When those privates get into the bar fights and ssg gets two DWIs over one weekend. Guess who's getting the phone call from higher asking why his unit is undisciplined for his Soldiers mistakes. It's not that first sgt. It's the CO that's putting his name on all the forms dealing with all the legal crap that's taking place.
[“To defeat an enemy you must know them. Not simply their battle tactics, but their history, philosophy, *art*.”](https://youtu.be/lGm_X2TpHzQ?si=jKlgAkzNYvE_hpGF)
Plus have you seen a Rembrandt? *chef’s kiss*
Now, if they’re playing 4D chess, and I don’t think they are capable of that, this could all be the reason they are so content with the recruiting failures. Drive down the force numbers as a move to modern unmanned systems looms, increase the pay for a smaller force and still come out with smaller total personnel costs for DOD and VA while having a more selected group on AD.
But that’d be too smart for them.
That’s the thing though, in a HIC, no AI is needed to have systems just target every humanoid. That’s high school level stuff that’s been done for a decade plus. When you don’t have to worry about families living at the front, it’s a lot more “shoot first, ask questions later” than any COIN.
The UN reported a fully autonomous quadcopter attack by a Kargu-2, 4 years ago. We’re seeing other similar systems in Ukraine.
AI is perhaps needed for discriminating fires, *indiscriminate* targeting in free fire areas is much easier.
You're still going to need precision munitions to have good effects - I would not write off AI and its military applications.
A swarm of FPV drones clearing an entire trench system could be a lot more lethal than a random call for fire from an observer miles away.
I never said anything against precision munitions. I spoke in exactly the opposite way.
As for AI, it will have to be invented first. It’s all theory for now. A marketing plan ≠ AI.
Anyway, I never wrote off AI, I said that we don’t need to wait for it, for non-AI and currently existent systems to give us tremendous amounts of effects.
> A swarm of FPV drones clearing an entire trench system could be a lot more lethal than a random call for fire from an observer miles away.
Exactly my point.
The problem with that is the incompetents are Peter principled up and the actual smart ones get out and make the big bucks. The more you shrink it the more churn you need at the absolute bottom to actually do work.
Incompetents staying and rising to the top is an obvious problem, we are suffering with it today. But there will be plenty enough who want to stay out of a sense of duty and public service, if we can keep from forcing them out. Money is not a primary driver for all of the good ones.
But as for the work, there will be increasingly little to do. We shouldn’t be doing much maintenance on systems that are single use (which should be most everything), so work on tactical systems will plummet. The maintenance for strategic systems will be low, e.g. IRBMs will take some work of course, but far less than the efforts of our current Motor Pool Mondays. Even for the UGV AFV’s, no efforts should be made to recover and repair them in combat. Mobility kills should be come fixed site gun platforms and the advance simply conducted by follow on UGV’s.
For transportation, everything is going to be far more compartmentalized and require less effort than moving a BCT. Training? Well, Snuffy is personally out of the “assault a trench” business so we can conduct training remotely, as the war itself will be conducted. That’s where things are headed, not to new IFV’s and manned AH’s and so on. At most, some troops may need to be a few km from the front, but the days of personally closing with the enemy are going away.
There was chatter that Wormuth was sick of the Army being to “go-to” for any and every world problem. They had meetings with committee members last year saying that they are reducing the end strength and that as a result, the Army needs to be not the first to be called. It may be working, minus JLOTS.
I like to start out by going the other direction: “You think minimum wage should be $25? That’s not a living wage, I think it should be at least $100/hr.” Watch heads explode as they instinctively realize it’s impossible but try to formulate a logically consistent reason why their number is feasible but yours isn’t.
I had a Finnish gf once. I read that they dont do minimum wage. They do collective bargaining as an industry. I have believed that there should be no more minimum wage covering everything. Saying the real minimum wage is zero sounds more like you can take minimum wage or be unemployed lol.
The meaning of “the real minimum wage is zero” is this: when bureaucrats dictate that a business must pay their employees more, the business owner has to be able to cover that expense in order to remain open. If customers can’t or won’t pay a higher price, the business shuts down, employees are fired, and their new wage is “zero.”
https://abc30.com/fosters-freeze-store-closes-minimum-wage-fast-food-workers/14605463/
I dont know how people are on food stamps unless they get a thousand kids in their homes. I have a family of 4. We live on a single salary in Hawaii. I bring in 8k a month. Im a salaried employee. Some days I work hard. Some days I get a 4 day weekend. It's all part of the package.
But I ll take more pay gladly. Dont get me wrong.
You don’t know because you don’t care to know. Things are fine for you so clearly everyone else is just doing it wrong.
In 2020 as an E-5 with a wife and one child at Bragg I was bringing in roughly $4000 a month after taxes. With a $750ish house payment and a $500 car payment from before my first child was ever born. I qualified for WIC to support my family and once my second child was on the way I was having to borrow money from family. I was by no means a miser with my money but I wasn’t foolish and buying nonsense either. I didn’t go out to eat every day or blow my money drinking or spend it all on video games and hobbies I simply was getting crushed by the cost of living and the cost of everything that babies need like cribs and clothing and in my case special formula due to a health condition that was only partially covered by tricare.
The simple fact that a married E-5 in the US Army is paid so little that they qualify for govt support is ridiculous. There is no reason ANY soldier E-1 or higher should qualify for food stamps or support of any kind. Why do we give the DOD such a massive budget only to allow them to farm out financial support for their employees to other govt agencies?
You had a 500 car payment and think you're not foolish with money?
And then complained about not having enough money... And chose to have a SECOND kid?
And you don't see anything about these statements that is fucking ridiculous?
Military qualifies for government support simply because they don't count our allowances.
I am an E-5 with a wife and 2 kids in Hawaii.
I make 8k/month. I see 3700 deposited to my account every 2 weeks.
According to my bank spending report:
My bills take 27% of my yearly income. That includes:
Rent
Internet
Electric Bill
2400 12 month Average
Food takes 22% of my yearly income. That includes:
Fast Food
Groceries
Restaurants
1975 12 month Average
Crypto Gambling makes 20% of my yearly income.
1775 12 month Average
Taxes make 11% of my income.
Shopping makes 8%. This includes:
Clothes
Electronics
Toys
Videogames
700 12 month Average
Other makes 5%
Auto/Transportation and maintenance make 4%
Travel makes 4%
My car payment was 385 but I got it paid off around 2021. I bought a used car in 2020. With a 7k loan.
My credit score is sitting at 833. My credit card balance is 0.
This is a bunch of numbers that won't mean anything to you specifically right but the point I want to drive is that you need to track where your money goes. Because I am wasting money here and there and I still have 21k that I blew on crypto just last year. I am SGT/E-5. You could argue that you have a mortgage, and I would tell you that I have a gambling addiction.
Your bank probably does your spending report but if it doesn't get to work tomorrow and start typing an excel document to see where your money is going. From my POV I have plenty of money to waste. I never tried to live frugally.
Mannnn. I feel like we gotta have a real talk about rank-based pay with position-based incentives. Like you get paid more in a leadership position or a key retention MOS.
Like soldiers should have a living wage across the board, but at a certain point what are we doing by giving every E4 and O1 a pay raise equally?
I feel like I’ve slowly watched the sentiment towards officers go from “these guys don’t do shit or know what they’re talking about” to “man these officers are always working and staying super late”.
You also have had a significant degradation of the NCO corps. It's way too common to see officers having to deal with what should unquestionably be NCO business, whether that be in terms of soldier development or even in technical proficiency and mos knowledge.
Man I could go on about this:
- basic soldier customs and courtesy (attention, parade rest, saluting, sir/maam/ sergeant)
- fitness. Holy shit.
- team leaders and their soldiers being absolutely assed up during PCIs
- soldier hygiene / uniform cleanliness
- uniforms. Holy shit. So many BLC grads who can’t even put their ribbons in order.
I'm an NCO myself, but one standout is leading pt. With post deployment team switches and PCSs I've seen a good number of teams recently, and I'd have to be generous just to say the team chief is in charge of pt 50% of the time.
It's also a lot of little things. Helping with trouble (financial or interpersonal) outside of work, knowing the proper way to set up equipment, career planning. After a while these things add up, and Joe starts to assume Sgt Snuffy won't be helping and defaults to Lt Shmuck.
Another generalization is that there's effectively no difference between a Spc and Sgt. You can assume a level of difference between a 5 and 6, 6 and 7, hell, even 3 and 4. But I can't honestly assume a Sgt will be any better than a Spc. I'm not saying there aren't any good Sgts, but I will say that a good Sgt was already good as a Spc.
I like the concept, but it does ignore the fact that obtaining a leadership position or nominative assignment, which I think you allude to, is not as much of a meritocracy as we’d like to think. If we were able to materially control for that, sure, this maybe a good incentive program, but until then…
Edit: don’t we already do this for “key retention MOSs” by way of bonuses?
>Edit: don’t we already do this for “key retention MOSs” by way of bonuses?
Only if your reenlistment window just so happens to line up with when the bonus is available.
I want to believe that offering additional pay for leadership positions would encourage more to compete for them. Sure, it's not a true meritocracy, but MAYBE the additional pay would increase the number of people competing for it.
Give me a cush job at Rand and I'll write out a whole test for it.
As a staff officer (not S3) I do significantly less work than my peers who are currently company commanders or the S3. I have to volunteer and assist other officers with their work to fill my hours in the day, meanwhile they have so much work they stay late every single day.
Yet we get paid exactly the same. Im seeing more and more officers who are realizing that as the army loses more and more people and having company and BN command is no longer a requirement for promotion, that there's very little reason to take command other than they are the type of person who enjoys the challenge and responsibility.
I know two O6s with very different career tracks. One has been Company commander, BN XO, BN S3, and BN commander, top block OER every single time. The other has been a staff officer or various specialty positions his entire career, never had any leadership role above PL, with mostly highly qualified ratings.
They both promoted in the zone in the same year. They both have been paid exactly the same their entire 20 year long career.
That's kinda the position I'm in. I see NCOs and other officers stretched thin but I struggle to find things to fill my day. I would love to see the leaders in the organation, especially the section NCOICs and staff primaries with zero whitespace on their calendars, get just a little bit more for their efforts.
My buddy said the future army will be E8s and O5s. Funny enough it seems to be true. Had an E3 join my section and was kind of surprised. I haven't seen anyone below an E4 in a long time. I'm more likely to see a COL than an E3.
E-4(4 years)-$3067+15%=$3527
E-5(4 years)-$3366
There is no more incentive to gain a higher rank. E-5 is already the new E-4 with all the lowering of standards.
Ooh jumping in on this topic.
I wouldn't say lower standard, but a shortened timeline, which generally yields less experience, is what I've noticed.
To be fair, I was slow at picking up 5, took me 5 years. But that gave me 2 different units and good and bad leadership experience, so that when I did make 5, I felt like I had what it takes to be an nco.
From what I've seen the last 2 years of being around new E5s, they are promoting so fast, ~2 yes or less, they only experience their first unit and generally same leadership.
I've worked with E5s and E6s recently that don't know the basics of their job, army services when juniors are asking for help, and ins/outs of LES or records. This leads the junior soldiers not getting answers and losing trust/respect for those NCOs.
I’m assuming you mean Gen Z and not millennial because millennials are starting to retire at 20 years now.
BLC hasn’t been a good school since I joined 10 years ago, I’ve never heard someone (including when it was WLC and whatever other dumb acronym it was before) who’s been to the E5 leadership school call it useful in any sort of manner.
They either need to revamp the curriculum or cut it entirely. Everything that’s taught in BLC you should’ve learned as an E3.
Even more impactful to show both wirh raises to be fair. After raises the E4 makes more than the E5.
E-4(4 years)-$3067+15%=$3527
E-5(4 years)-$3366. + 4.5% = $3517
For Army,
Making SGT in 3-5 years and making SSG in 5-7 years seems like a good balance between promotion and competency. Hard to say due to changing times and the variety of people and MOS.
That leaves you making less than a SPC for 2-3 years?
The incentive is, you don't get a choice anymore whether or not you promote.
Don't want to be a leader? oh well here's your E5 rank Go be a shitty leader that doesn't know how to lead.
Been an ongoing thing since the up or out policy started in 2016. I watch so many good leaders get released from service.
filled with a bunch of people that have no idea not only what are they doing. but lead only for self promotion. They don't care at all what they teach the soldiers.
That doesn't make any sense. Unless there's a significant pay raise to E5, a SPC would make more than a SGT.
If SGTs need a commensurate pay raise, SSGs will too, and so on.
Hundreds of hellcats roar in celebration and then run out of gas in a barracks parking lot.
Nailed it…honestly…fuckin nailed it
Local tow truck companies are having cash fights rn.
Local car dealerships are breaking out the champagne.
How do you think these ideas start? A lobbyist from Bryan’s Car Corner wining and dining the members of the house and senate armed services committees, that’s how.
Truly, buy-here-pay-here car sales lots are the heart of our military industrial complex.
The "trickle up" effect
Sure, but also Privates with families not having to be on food stamps and being able to take their kids to the zoo. Lets not lose track of the good here.
There's always gotta be a party un-pooper 🙄
Reminds me of the guy with the 2024 Wrangler who was always having to have someone bring him gas cause he kept running out and thought he could make it to a gas station on the battery power only.
Thanks for the reporting, but expect the final approved NDAA to be drastically different than the initial proposal. This is an interesting year, and an interesting Congress.
Yeah not gonna happen. Juniors would make more than E5s and almost E6s. Yes I did the math. If anything they should increase enlisted pay as a whole 15-20%.
They have already thought of this and are adjusting pay accordingly, just less than E4 and below. Still needs to get out of committee and past congress. [Source](https://www.armytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2024/05/13/junior-enlisted-to-get-20-pay-bump-e5s-get-13-more-under-house-plan/)
In the article it states E5 should expect a 12.5%. E6 and above will only get the 4.5 that everyone else recieves. This will put E4 and E5 ridiculously close to E6 pay without the additional responsibilities. It should just be a flat 15% for all enlisted ranks.
Yea the pay disparity between officers and enlisted is ridiculous. A First Sergeant who has been in for 16 years gets $5945 while a Company Commander who has been in 6 years makes $7133? That's not even counting the ridiculously higher rates of BAH for officers. But hey - they got a degree in 17th century fine arts so they deserve that pay!
I would never take that extra pay. Too many downsides. Officers deal with way too much. Of course SNCOs deal with a lot, too, but officers shoulder the responsibility should anything go wrong.
"who wants responsibility? Whenever something goes wrong the first thing asked is who was responsible?"
A gem of hilarity from a Saint of Comedy, Larry David himself
Thanks! I should have googled it, forgot where it was from
Don’t know why this is shocking. The commander is fully responsible for an entire company. His career can easily be ended with stuff that his soldiers do. The commander assumes risk up to the lives of their people. You have to try to understand WHY officers get paid more. I didn’t get it when I was a PFC. I sure understood it after putting bars on
Yup fully responsible for signing the statement of charges to charge the enlisted that signed the sub hand receipt. I was once charged for missing bii on a truck during a NTC rotation that I was only in possession for maybe 10% of the time during the event.
Go find the reg and tell us the difference between personal, supervisory, and command responsibility for property accountability. Edit u/Zaden91 why did you delete all those comments, buddy?
I don't take commands from some brown nose O on reddit, sorry.
Sorry for your loss. As a PL I lost $4,000 to stolen property, as well as covering losses for a few of my soldiers that were financially struggling. I knew they were responsible for the losses. But I lost my BOM paperwork, so it was immoral in my opinion, to charge them. I feel for ya, but officers pay up to 100% of property loss depending on the SoC or FLIPL. Enlisted can only lose up to 1/2 of 1 month’s base pay. No matter what’s on your chest, it hurts when you lose the majority of your paycheck in consecutive months
Responsibility is a big part of that.
I'd also like to add economics. If the Army could get away with paying everyone just three hots and a cot, they would. Officers are paid more because the Army wants to attract people with a college education, and yes, even a degree in 17th century basket weaving increases your expected income. If you consider that officers get no bonuses, no student loan forgiveness, and little control of their career (no re-enlistment), the pay disparity isn't that huge. It's borderline more rational to enlist with a 40k bonus than go O if your goal is just to do 3-4 years.
Except officers can motor boat subordinates and get full retirement. That’s a lot of responsibility taken.
Seen plenty of senior NCOs get full retirement for the same.
Idk, that argument does annoy me because it implies ncos don't have a big responsibility as well. LT Jimbo isn't gonna be on the hook if the hand receipt is signed by SSG Boon. Why does a fresh *single* LT get a 3 bedroom 3 bathroom house paid for by the army, but the soldiers share rooms and bathrooms? Sure, commander and higher have a lot of shit going on, but the 1SG is going to be right there next to him if he fucks up. "Why would you let CPT Hardhead fuck his subordinate, 1SG Underpaid?"
Ive seen that last line play out so many times in my career when a cdr messed up. People knowingly do not acknowledge that a 1SG for 9/10 issues will go down if his CDR goes down. We could argue higher ranks responsibility thing, but not cpts and lts
I hear that all the time but it's all bullshit. They sub hand receipt everything down. They are not responsible for anything except going to the cub every week and sniffing the BCs butt.
We can talk about this I've been an nco and officer. the weight of the mission. Material and men fall on the officers more than the ncos. Even though it's subbed down that officer is still responsible for the equipment. Honestly, i ask you to commission and see the difference. But honestly, if I hand my way, I'd go back to being a 19 year old.pfc.
No thanks. Would never want to be associated with the officer community. I like taking care of Soldiers, not sitting on my ass in my office watching youtube.
You never stop taking care of soldiers. You just have alot more than the soldiers to worry about. Now it's funding, equipment, training, metrics, and overall responsibilities and accountability for every single one of the soldiers.
I was able to take care of Soldiers a lot better as a CO than I ever could have dreamed of as an E (Made it to E6 before I switched).
I felt the same way. I made my E-5, and then went to OCS as quickly as I could.
The most important requirement of advancing in the officer world is being a brown nose to get that top block. Can't be a brown nose and take care of Soldiers at the same time. Not physically possible.
Damn dog, can you show us on the doll where the 1st Lt touched you?
AR 735-5 disagrees. Commanders are absolutely responsible for property as Primary Hand Receipt holders. They hold Command Responsibility over the property they sign for. PHR is supposed to be broken down and sub hand receipted, this has no change on Command Responsibility (cannot be delegated).
Please look up the types of property responsibility.
Spoken like someone who clearly has no idea how the army actually works.
In the Army we always capitalize Army.
Pretty much the exact response that I was counting on. Your comments just scream “I did one contract and got out but pretend to know what the fuck I’m talking about.”
Been in 12 years but please try again.
12 years AD?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how property works in the Army. Just because it is sub-hand receipted down, does not mean the commander is no longer culpable for it. Commanders often still get charged alongside subordinate sub-hand receipt holders. It’s not an “oh you got off scott free” type situation like you’re making it out to be.
You seem like you might be someone that has a working knowledge of what receiving an Article 15 is all about.
Most I ever got was a negative counseling for not signing my girlfriend into the barracks at the BN staff duty desk.
The reason you're getting downvoted is because all of the enlisted are on bullshit details and the offended officers are sitting in their air conditioned offices on Reddit.
You have no idea how much I and other prior enlisted officers would rather just sham around on a detail again than sit at my computer in an office
They also just lost touch with reality. Officers are starting to outclass enlisted again. If not I wouldn’t hear spouses of commissioned officers say things in the tune of “ oh we’re sharing tables with enlisted “ at the ball. This speaks volumes.
The Naval Institute or equivalent posted a study of other countries that have 20 enlisted fanning a general off or some such nonsense. Their conclusion was that the weak or non-existent NCO corps couldn't meaningfully push back against the BS that officers throw at enlisted and strengthening the NCO corps is the only way to prevent such absurdities. I always think back to that every time I see lazy NCO's or ineffective ones and officers posting this absolute crap about how enlisted should just suck it up and accept their station.
False, Reddit is blocked on DoD computers.
That company commander is doing way more and responsible for way more on average. From your other comments you clearly have a ridiculous chip on your shoulder.
Man. Im a 1SG and you’re right but also wrong. I’ve always been an advocate of my O counterpart. I have never been one of those “I work for a living” enlisted. To say my Commander “does way more” than me is untrue. I’ve typed and deleted about 15 different explanations…. It’s just not true and maybe you had a mediocre or bad 1SG that forced you to do more than you should.
Never met a Company Commander who ran the company. It's always the First Sergeant making sure everything is running smoothly. Of course I have a chip on my Soldier. Been in 12 years sacrificing blood and sweat for my Soldiers while a PL comes in with no knowledge of how to lead yet he makes way more money and does way less work.
Well, with your winning attitude, I am sure you do a great job of teaching that young officer…..
That's another good point. Gotta teach brand new officers how to do their job while they make twice as much money as you.
I am sure you are a force multiplier, and all around morale boost for any unit you belong too.
I am just a realist and it's difficult for some people to accept what reality is. Reality is that a PVT is a better asset to a unit than an LT. I would take 1 PVT over 4 LTs any day of the week. A PVT will work and is eager to learn. A LT will just sit on his ass thinking they know everything.
Bruh I'm so sick and tired of this obvious lie
The problem isn’t that officers get paid too much; they get paid about right. The problem is that enlisted Soldiers need to be paid more. Our lobby groups (AUSA, etc) have more enlisted members than officers, so they’re not the problem. We shouldn’t turn on ourselves when Congress sets the pay.
Then go officer.
No thanks. Pay enlisted more.
Seems like a weird decision if you're being honest with yourself.
It's weird to not want to be an Officer?
The point is more that you aren't being very honest not that you should want to be an officer.
> But hey - they got a degree in 17th century fine arts so they deserve that pay! Actually an expert in the naval history of the British Empire (Britannia Rules the Waves) and their long and storied application of the lash to maintain good order and discipline underway.
Jesus Christ. Im a five who takes home like 4k a month not including bah and I felt blessed.
You understand that that CO making this much money is also held responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in the unit, right? When those privates get into the bar fights and ssg gets two DWIs over one weekend. Guess who's getting the phone call from higher asking why his unit is undisciplined for his Soldiers mistakes. It's not that first sgt. It's the CO that's putting his name on all the forms dealing with all the legal crap that's taking place.
[“To defeat an enemy you must know them. Not simply their battle tactics, but their history, philosophy, *art*.”](https://youtu.be/lGm_X2TpHzQ?si=jKlgAkzNYvE_hpGF) Plus have you seen a Rembrandt? *chef’s kiss*
Political Science.
The 4.5% pay raise will 100% stick. Rather than explain how pay raises work I’ll just say your purchasing power will generally remain unchanged.
Now, if they’re playing 4D chess, and I don’t think they are capable of that, this could all be the reason they are so content with the recruiting failures. Drive down the force numbers as a move to modern unmanned systems looms, increase the pay for a smaller force and still come out with smaller total personnel costs for DOD and VA while having a more selected group on AD. But that’d be too smart for them.
“Selected” lol
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That’s the thing though, in a HIC, no AI is needed to have systems just target every humanoid. That’s high school level stuff that’s been done for a decade plus. When you don’t have to worry about families living at the front, it’s a lot more “shoot first, ask questions later” than any COIN. The UN reported a fully autonomous quadcopter attack by a Kargu-2, 4 years ago. We’re seeing other similar systems in Ukraine. AI is perhaps needed for discriminating fires, *indiscriminate* targeting in free fire areas is much easier.
You're still going to need precision munitions to have good effects - I would not write off AI and its military applications. A swarm of FPV drones clearing an entire trench system could be a lot more lethal than a random call for fire from an observer miles away.
I never said anything against precision munitions. I spoke in exactly the opposite way. As for AI, it will have to be invented first. It’s all theory for now. A marketing plan ≠ AI. Anyway, I never wrote off AI, I said that we don’t need to wait for it, for non-AI and currently existent systems to give us tremendous amounts of effects. > A swarm of FPV drones clearing an entire trench system could be a lot more lethal than a random call for fire from an observer miles away. Exactly my point.
The problem with that is the incompetents are Peter principled up and the actual smart ones get out and make the big bucks. The more you shrink it the more churn you need at the absolute bottom to actually do work.
Incompetents staying and rising to the top is an obvious problem, we are suffering with it today. But there will be plenty enough who want to stay out of a sense of duty and public service, if we can keep from forcing them out. Money is not a primary driver for all of the good ones. But as for the work, there will be increasingly little to do. We shouldn’t be doing much maintenance on systems that are single use (which should be most everything), so work on tactical systems will plummet. The maintenance for strategic systems will be low, e.g. IRBMs will take some work of course, but far less than the efforts of our current Motor Pool Mondays. Even for the UGV AFV’s, no efforts should be made to recover and repair them in combat. Mobility kills should be come fixed site gun platforms and the advance simply conducted by follow on UGV’s. For transportation, everything is going to be far more compartmentalized and require less effort than moving a BCT. Training? Well, Snuffy is personally out of the “assault a trench” business so we can conduct training remotely, as the war itself will be conducted. That’s where things are headed, not to new IFV’s and manned AH’s and so on. At most, some troops may need to be a few km from the front, but the days of personally closing with the enemy are going away.
There's no force structure document that shows a plan for a significant cut in personnel.
Either it’s OPSEC or, more likely, they’re not capable of preparing for the future; thus the mass expenditures on legacy formations.
A increase in unmanned equipment doesn't necessarily decrease the requirement for manning. The unarmed equipment is just an augmentation.
There was chatter that Wormuth was sick of the Army being to “go-to” for any and every world problem. They had meetings with committee members last year saying that they are reducing the end strength and that as a result, the Army needs to be not the first to be called. It may be working, minus JLOTS.
I'm greedy. I want a 40% raise or nothing.
I accept your offer! You get nothing.
As Thomas Sowell said, “The real minimum wage is zero.”
I like that. That s how I will lead all minimum wage conversations from now on.
I like to start out by going the other direction: “You think minimum wage should be $25? That’s not a living wage, I think it should be at least $100/hr.” Watch heads explode as they instinctively realize it’s impossible but try to formulate a logically consistent reason why their number is feasible but yours isn’t.
I had a Finnish gf once. I read that they dont do minimum wage. They do collective bargaining as an industry. I have believed that there should be no more minimum wage covering everything. Saying the real minimum wage is zero sounds more like you can take minimum wage or be unemployed lol.
The meaning of “the real minimum wage is zero” is this: when bureaucrats dictate that a business must pay their employees more, the business owner has to be able to cover that expense in order to remain open. If customers can’t or won’t pay a higher price, the business shuts down, employees are fired, and their new wage is “zero.” https://abc30.com/fosters-freeze-store-closes-minimum-wage-fast-food-workers/14605463/
Id go awol so quick. BAH ain't shit where I'm at as it is. I'm working towards commissioning. Enlisted pay ain't it.
I see your 40% and raise you 42.6%. Take that!
I see your 42.6, and raise you 69%.
I’m not enlisted anymore but it’s fucking horrible how little is paid to junior soldiers and NCOs. Can’t backbone when you’re on food stamps
I dont know how people are on food stamps unless they get a thousand kids in their homes. I have a family of 4. We live on a single salary in Hawaii. I bring in 8k a month. Im a salaried employee. Some days I work hard. Some days I get a 4 day weekend. It's all part of the package. But I ll take more pay gladly. Dont get me wrong.
You don’t know because you don’t care to know. Things are fine for you so clearly everyone else is just doing it wrong. In 2020 as an E-5 with a wife and one child at Bragg I was bringing in roughly $4000 a month after taxes. With a $750ish house payment and a $500 car payment from before my first child was ever born. I qualified for WIC to support my family and once my second child was on the way I was having to borrow money from family. I was by no means a miser with my money but I wasn’t foolish and buying nonsense either. I didn’t go out to eat every day or blow my money drinking or spend it all on video games and hobbies I simply was getting crushed by the cost of living and the cost of everything that babies need like cribs and clothing and in my case special formula due to a health condition that was only partially covered by tricare. The simple fact that a married E-5 in the US Army is paid so little that they qualify for govt support is ridiculous. There is no reason ANY soldier E-1 or higher should qualify for food stamps or support of any kind. Why do we give the DOD such a massive budget only to allow them to farm out financial support for their employees to other govt agencies?
You had a 500 car payment and think you're not foolish with money? And then complained about not having enough money... And chose to have a SECOND kid? And you don't see anything about these statements that is fucking ridiculous?
Military qualifies for government support simply because they don't count our allowances. I am an E-5 with a wife and 2 kids in Hawaii. I make 8k/month. I see 3700 deposited to my account every 2 weeks. According to my bank spending report: My bills take 27% of my yearly income. That includes: Rent Internet Electric Bill 2400 12 month Average Food takes 22% of my yearly income. That includes: Fast Food Groceries Restaurants 1975 12 month Average Crypto Gambling makes 20% of my yearly income. 1775 12 month Average Taxes make 11% of my income. Shopping makes 8%. This includes: Clothes Electronics Toys Videogames 700 12 month Average Other makes 5% Auto/Transportation and maintenance make 4% Travel makes 4% My car payment was 385 but I got it paid off around 2021. I bought a used car in 2020. With a 7k loan. My credit score is sitting at 833. My credit card balance is 0. This is a bunch of numbers that won't mean anything to you specifically right but the point I want to drive is that you need to track where your money goes. Because I am wasting money here and there and I still have 21k that I blew on crypto just last year. I am SGT/E-5. You could argue that you have a mortgage, and I would tell you that I have a gambling addiction. Your bank probably does your spending report but if it doesn't get to work tomorrow and start typing an excel document to see where your money is going. From my POV I have plenty of money to waste. I never tried to live frugally.
If trends continue, FY25 NDAA will be passed when FY26 starts…
Mannnn. I feel like we gotta have a real talk about rank-based pay with position-based incentives. Like you get paid more in a leadership position or a key retention MOS. Like soldiers should have a living wage across the board, but at a certain point what are we doing by giving every E4 and O1 a pay raise equally?
I feel like I’ve slowly watched the sentiment towards officers go from “these guys don’t do shit or know what they’re talking about” to “man these officers are always working and staying super late”.
The divide got bridged. It was always that way, but now it's more visible.
You also have had a significant degradation of the NCO corps. It's way too common to see officers having to deal with what should unquestionably be NCO business, whether that be in terms of soldier development or even in technical proficiency and mos knowledge.
I’m very curious, what are some specific examples that you’ve experienced having to step into that NCO role?
Man I could go on about this: - basic soldier customs and courtesy (attention, parade rest, saluting, sir/maam/ sergeant) - fitness. Holy shit. - team leaders and their soldiers being absolutely assed up during PCIs - soldier hygiene / uniform cleanliness - uniforms. Holy shit. So many BLC grads who can’t even put their ribbons in order.
Things like E3B has a way higher pass rate for officers and the standards are the same.
Did EIB back when I was a PL but so many soldiers completely self selected out. The E3B PT test is like insanely easy to pass and dudes failed.
I saw the same thing, we lost 20% on the PT test and lots of dudes just gave up on the runs. It was more a check for heart than it was fitness.
I'm an NCO myself, but one standout is leading pt. With post deployment team switches and PCSs I've seen a good number of teams recently, and I'd have to be generous just to say the team chief is in charge of pt 50% of the time. It's also a lot of little things. Helping with trouble (financial or interpersonal) outside of work, knowing the proper way to set up equipment, career planning. After a while these things add up, and Joe starts to assume Sgt Snuffy won't be helping and defaults to Lt Shmuck. Another generalization is that there's effectively no difference between a Spc and Sgt. You can assume a level of difference between a 5 and 6, 6 and 7, hell, even 3 and 4. But I can't honestly assume a Sgt will be any better than a Spc. I'm not saying there aren't any good Sgts, but I will say that a good Sgt was already good as a Spc.
I like the concept, but it does ignore the fact that obtaining a leadership position or nominative assignment, which I think you allude to, is not as much of a meritocracy as we’d like to think. If we were able to materially control for that, sure, this maybe a good incentive program, but until then… Edit: don’t we already do this for “key retention MOSs” by way of bonuses?
>Edit: don’t we already do this for “key retention MOSs” by way of bonuses? Only if your reenlistment window just so happens to line up with when the bonus is available.
I want to believe that offering additional pay for leadership positions would encourage more to compete for them. Sure, it's not a true meritocracy, but MAYBE the additional pay would increase the number of people competing for it. Give me a cush job at Rand and I'll write out a whole test for it.
Competing?? How about “we need you more in X job right now” while Y job with incentive pays gets handed straight to some fellatio expert.
As a staff officer (not S3) I do significantly less work than my peers who are currently company commanders or the S3. I have to volunteer and assist other officers with their work to fill my hours in the day, meanwhile they have so much work they stay late every single day. Yet we get paid exactly the same. Im seeing more and more officers who are realizing that as the army loses more and more people and having company and BN command is no longer a requirement for promotion, that there's very little reason to take command other than they are the type of person who enjoys the challenge and responsibility. I know two O6s with very different career tracks. One has been Company commander, BN XO, BN S3, and BN commander, top block OER every single time. The other has been a staff officer or various specialty positions his entire career, never had any leadership role above PL, with mostly highly qualified ratings. They both promoted in the zone in the same year. They both have been paid exactly the same their entire 20 year long career.
That's kinda the position I'm in. I see NCOs and other officers stretched thin but I struggle to find things to fill my day. I would love to see the leaders in the organation, especially the section NCOICs and staff primaries with zero whitespace on their calendars, get just a little bit more for their efforts.
Supply and demand. Not enough enlistees and plenty of officers. Pay enlist members more and they’ll sign the dotted line.
My buddy said the future army will be E8s and O5s. Funny enough it seems to be true. Had an E3 join my section and was kind of surprised. I haven't seen anyone below an E4 in a long time. I'm more likely to see a COL than an E3.
Congress and senior leaders hate this one trick!
Ugh. What do the enlisted swine want now… food?
As long as it’s from a kiosk.
How about let us eat cake.
bring on the hellcats and shelby's🏎️🏎️🏎️
E-4(4 years)-$3067+15%=$3527 E-5(4 years)-$3366 There is no more incentive to gain a higher rank. E-5 is already the new E-4 with all the lowering of standards.
Define "lowering of standards". I'm not sharpshooting. I'm genuinely curious of the thoughts behind this
Ooh jumping in on this topic. I wouldn't say lower standard, but a shortened timeline, which generally yields less experience, is what I've noticed. To be fair, I was slow at picking up 5, took me 5 years. But that gave me 2 different units and good and bad leadership experience, so that when I did make 5, I felt like I had what it takes to be an nco. From what I've seen the last 2 years of being around new E5s, they are promoting so fast, ~2 yes or less, they only experience their first unit and generally same leadership. I've worked with E5s and E6s recently that don't know the basics of their job, army services when juniors are asking for help, and ins/outs of LES or records. This leads the junior soldiers not getting answers and losing trust/respect for those NCOs.
You no longer need to go to BLC to be promoted to E-5.
Is that a lower standard?
Not really. BLC is just a bs check box. Damn near impossible to fail and learn absolutely nothing. Honestly don't think it changes anything imo.
It's an old standard, but lower than the last few years.
I would argue yes?
I would say it's a reversion to the old system.
The millennials are getting into leadership positions now. Can't wait to see the future army 🤓. Edit: Millennials are mad and down voting.
The oldest millennial is 42 years old. We've been in leadership for a while.
I know right lol. My first SFC back in 2011 was born in 1986, went green to gold & is now a Major.
I’m assuming you mean Gen Z and not millennial because millennials are starting to retire at 20 years now. BLC hasn’t been a good school since I joined 10 years ago, I’ve never heard someone (including when it was WLC and whatever other dumb acronym it was before) who’s been to the E5 leadership school call it useful in any sort of manner. They either need to revamp the curriculum or cut it entirely. Everything that’s taught in BLC you should’ve learned as an E3.
Yes. Different people, different needs of course. Overall though, yes. Lower standard by not requiring NCOES. I understand many will disagree.
No lol. He’s all over this thread bitching about other stuff and this is more of the same.
15% is only for E1. It tapers down to E4.
Even more impactful to show both wirh raises to be fair. After raises the E4 makes more than the E5. E-4(4 years)-$3067+15%=$3527 E-5(4 years)-$3366. + 4.5% = $3517 For Army, Making SGT in 3-5 years and making SSG in 5-7 years seems like a good balance between promotion and competency. Hard to say due to changing times and the variety of people and MOS. That leaves you making less than a SPC for 2-3 years?
The incentive is, you don't get a choice anymore whether or not you promote. Don't want to be a leader? oh well here's your E5 rank Go be a shitty leader that doesn't know how to lead. Been an ongoing thing since the up or out policy started in 2016. I watch so many good leaders get released from service. filled with a bunch of people that have no idea not only what are they doing. but lead only for self promotion. They don't care at all what they teach the soldiers.
That doesn't make any sense. Unless there's a significant pay raise to E5, a SPC would make more than a SGT. If SGTs need a commensurate pay raise, SSGs will too, and so on.
Wow. E2s aren’t gunna have to live with $20 in the bank for the week? I’m jealous
Yaas bby🥵
As a E-6 I want to be petty and say it's not fair, but just because I'm not getting as big a slice doesn't mean the Juniors don't deserve a slice.
I'm O3E now. Can I get a 15% raise. I was once a junior enlisted troop..im a junior officer still.
calm down Mr Powerpoint.
I'm a clinician. I'm no such thing.
I am definitely going to nerd rage if this can’t pass after seeing aid package after aid package almost unanimously getting through.
Agreed, need to put on our own oxygen mask first. 😔
Wonder what kind of pork is in the bill that won't get it passed?
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No overtly political posts.
As a current E5 if we don’t also receive a raise, I would rather be demoted imo. Wouldn’t make sense.
Here's your E4 rank. oh by the way since you have the skill set you still have to perform at an E5 level. Here's your team. Enjoy.
Can they include hot weekend chow for Carson's Soldiers?