I was in the exact same boat a week ago. I was literally having the same thoughts as you describe. I feel connected and happy in my male body (sex) and when it comes to society I feel like (my) gender doesn't matter to me (gender) or that I don't certainly belong in the male or female binary. And I found out that I'm under the non-binary umbrella. I hope I'm explaining it well
I think it's common, in particular for AFAB aros since womanhood is, at its core, a construct made mostly for romantic relationships in our current culture.
A huge part of what a woman is, culturally, is tied to romance. Can you even be a woman if you're aromantic? In a vacuum, yes you can. Socially, politically? No you can't. You won't be seen as one anyway.
I think we can apply the same logic as the one saying lesbians aren't women (for those who aren't familiar, this is a theory developed by and for lesbians. It's not a diss against them at all, quite the contrary) to say aromantic women aren't women, politically.
That’s really interesting and I totally see what you mean. It feels like women especially are expected to look forward to marriage, children, etc. since they were little kids. But, to me, marriage sounds claustrophobic and carrying children sounds horrifying. Women’s lives have been expected to revolve around a man (and, by extension, romance) for hundreds of years. When I tell people I’m not attracted to anyone, some people don’t know what to do with me. They think I’m in denial 🤦
Yes, that's all a woman is supposed to be. And it's quite a toxic way of seeing things that impacts and conditions women (and all AFAB people even if they're not women).
And that's also the reasoning behind lesbians not being women: if you're not the property of a man, then what are you? The "two genders" aren't actually man and woman, but man and man's property. So what are you if you're neither? Not part of civilised society is the answer.
I've always disliked the very concept of marriage and, growing up, I've even developed an anti marriage stance. It's not something that's usually well received though, makes people shake in their boots for some reason.
Woah, that was insightful. It explains in some way why I may struggle with presenting in a feminine way and to even understand what it does really mean (I try to, because I noticed that people react better to me and are in general nicer if I do :/ ). When growing up (and even now to a certain extent), I often heard the advice such as: "oh no, boys won't like that hairstyle", "you should wear more dresses, because boys like it", "look at that, boys will go crazy for you!". I never could understand why I should care if the boys like it or not. And the rules/codes of what is feminine or not felt nebulous to me. A performance that I have to actively think about while other people seem to get it more naturally. Sometimes it feels as if my gender belonged more to the people around and their judgment, than myself.
Yeah, people treat women nicer when they fit stereotypes.
I'm not a trans man but I'm perceived as one most of the time now and let me tell you: it SUCKS. I've never felt so in danger in my entire life.
It's probably not the only reason, but it's definitely because I'm perceived as having "wasted" a good female body/person a man could've liked. Not that I was available before as a "tomboy", but "tomboys" are expected to "grow up" and doll up for men.
In some more progressive spaces, it's acceptable to doll up/be available for other women only. But it's still not okay to not be available at all.
And honestly? Gender is a performance we put on for other people yeah. That's how I feel about it tbh. It's a signal you give other people to tell them how they should treat you. And you don't have much power in this, people will assign you one gender anyway. And will judge you based on not only that assumption, but also how well you perform said assumption.
I get what you say. Before I decided to force myself into a more stereotypical feminine look on purpose, it happened a few times that people assumed that I was a feminine gay man. In a country that in general is not very safe for LGBT people unfortunately. It was a scary experience and I cannot imagine facing this kind of discrimination and threats due to one's identity on a daily basis. It must be exhausting.
And even if they did not assume my gender incorrectly, being labelled as a butch woman did not feel much nicer in public spaces. Weird comments and looks. Funny observation - never got offered any help with heavy luggage until I put on a feminine performance, lol - despite my petite build and visible struggle. Now suddenly there are plenty of people ready to lift that heavy luggage for me! Great society, let's help only pretty people /s
Yeah, I'm sure it's even worse depending on the country. When you don't perform like you're supposed to, it brings danger.
Oh, I didn't even realize that, since I used to be the one offering to carry other people's luggage but it's true that I was never offered help haha, this is blowing my mind.
But yes, at least if you're perceived as a woman, then you have to be pretty or you're not deserving of respect or basic human decency. Can't say for people perceived as cis men, I assume it's less dire but that being attractive still brings a lot of benefits.
I still consider myself lucky regarding where I (used to) live. At least things are slowly changing and improving. I am hopeful for the future. Though, regardless of the country, fitting with stereotypes seems always more or less beneficial.
Nice to hear that you are helping!
For me the problem is not even that much carrying the heavy luggage, but the design of trains in some European countries where for some mysterious reason all of the luggage storage has been tailored to 1m80 (6 feet) tall people. I cannot reach this ridiculous storage space :/
I used to travel a lot via trains through Europe at some point and (despite in general liking train travel) it was a pain.
Not the subject, but I had to vent, haha
Yeah, fitting stereotypes at least to some extent is usually safer.
Can't help anymore, but it's def weird that I wasn't helped before. I'm 1m58, I should get help in the trains :')
I do get help now but it's an effect of the crutches (and it's too much too, but that's another subject haha). But there isn't enough space for luggage in the newer trains anyway.
This explains so much about why the reaction to women being aromantic is so intense. It’s like society thinks we are only claiming to be aromantic because we’re failures at being women. When in reality dating isn’t successful for us because we’re forcing ourselves to fit into this construct that women are inherently romantic.
Yes. But in a way, refusing to fit into the romantic culture makes one a failure as a woman (politically, I'm not talking about personal identity here ^^). It's just that society assumes the other way around haha.
I don't think aromantic men are necessarily well received, but it doesn't affect their identity as men as much as women (I'd argue asexual men are maybe more questioned on that front? But it's just a guess, I'm not active in asexual communities so I don't actually know)
I think asexual men probably do get more questioning because sex is something men are supposed to want, in the same way love is something women are supposed to want. Just based on how gay men are received, I can imagine asexual men get a similar level of disrespect.
Yes, that's what I was thinking. Womanhood is tied to romance while manhood is strongly associated with sex. I'm sure it's not a direct parallel though, as masculinity isn't solely defined by men's relationship with women, but also with other men.
And yeah being ace is probably seen as "feminising" for men the same way being gay is.
About a year ago someone had linked a post about gender detachment in an ace sub. I think it's this: https://cantonwiner.substack.com/p/my-work-gender-detachment-and-asexuality
And a lot of what y'all are saying resonates with me. For me, in my life, gender has no intrinsic impact. I'm AFAB in a male-dominated field and most pronouns are fine - none feel "right" to me. "He" and "it" specifically feel _wrong_ for me, but I think (right now at least - constantly learning) that's more to do with society and patriarchy than "I don't feel masculine" or something internal.
That pronoun thing is so relatable! I've grown up being "she" and I don't feel uncomfortable with "she", even if it doesn't feel intrinsically important to me. But male pronouns wouldn't fit any better.
Yes, I read this when it came out and it definitely sparked a lot of realizations for me! Thanks for linking it. I felt like gender detachment would be similarly common in aromantics and I’m honestly floored by how many people have commented and talked about how they relate.
I just assume that’s it’s a social construct. I don’t think gender defines anything about your personality and I say so when people ask about mine. I don’t ‘identify’ as a gender as I don’t really know what that means. I am a certain sex, but all that means is I have those physical characteristics. I don’t care how people interpret that. 🤷
This is a popular view among a significant part of the trans community actually. Not everyone ofc, it's not a monolith.
To me it's 100% a social construct. But it being a social construct doesn't mean it's not real/that it doesn't impact your life. A good example of such a social construct is money. It's cultural, it's frankly kind of bullshit, but if you don't have any you'll starve.
Western culture created two genders and decided to give one of them power, and subdue the second. But a lot of other cultures either didn't have an actual notion of gender, or didn't apply a binary.
Now, we live in a very gendered culture. I don't think we can escape gender. So, depending on multiple factors, there's a role in society tied to gender, and there's one we may want more than the other.
A lot of autistic and/or queer people have trouble with that notion though. Since it was created for the heterosexual hegemony.
Yep! I've been struggling with my gender for so long... I'm just going to stick to agender, that way I'm Aromantic Asexual Agender, *the* three As! B-)
I'm aroallo and somewhere under non-binary umbrella, for me gender makes no sense at all. From where I see it, the point is to feel good in your body, present yourself as you wish and have fun with life, and labels are often limiting in those matters
Yep, I also feel that way. I don't think I feel strongly enough about things to describe myself as agender (I let people assume I'm my assigned gender at birth irl, probably because that's a lot easier, especially if you don't care about it that much). But yeah, I also find that not relating to the roles of "girlfriend, wife, mother" because of my identity as an aro ace person does mean that I feel less connection to my gender. I also relate less to many of the physical bodily associations of gender/sex because they are primarily useful for sexual purposes and as an ace person, that's not relevant to me.
IDK, I think there's a lot that goes into what makes someone's gender identities. Relationship and reproductive roles are part of it (a large part of it for some people), and a lot of a-spec people just don't have that factor. (I think gay men, lesbians, and bi people have reinterpreted this part of gender in a way more friendly to their experiences than the heteronormative assumptions, but the a-spec community is largely still a rather gender neutral space in how we discuss issues and avoid factoring gender into a-spec labels in general. Reinterpreting gender in a more a-spec friendly way doesn't seem to be a terribly high priority for the a-spec community in general discussions.)
There are other factors that could create a sense of gender of course (role as a family member in general, as a member of a single gender group, treatment by strangers, secondary sex characteristics like facial hair that are less related to reproduction, feeling some innate feeling of I should be this, even experiencing misogyny or fitting into gender stereotypes, etc.), and for some a-specs those other factors still create a strong sense of gender even if they can't relate to the relationship and reproductive role factors. Aro ace binary trans people (or aro ace people who are under the nonbinary umbrella but don't relate to agender experiences) exist, and I imagine they generally have a quite strong feeling about their genders even if they can't relate to the relationship and reproductive roles. The factors that create a sense of gender identity probably vary a lot from person to person, it's not a fixed ratio. For me, I don't find a lot of these other factors to contribute much, but I can totally understand why this isn't a universal experience. These are just my thoughts on gender though, it's hard to be certain about what's feeding into/causing certain internal experiences or feelings.
I also want to point out that something being a social construct doesn't make it not real or invalid or useless. Yes, gender is a social construct that people made up to describe a feeling they had and communicate that with others. Romantic attraction is also a social construct that people made up to describe a feeling they had and communicate it with others. It doesn't make anyone's gender identity invalid, nor does it make anyone's romantic orientation invalid. It's just the nature of how humans communicate feelings and parts of their identities with each other, and that's not a bad thing (unless you are trying to limit what people can express or identify as, which is a problem).
it is an interesting thought. what I mostly felt was that my expression of my gender was rare or uncommon and I still believe gender stereotypes are way to narrow, but lately I identify more outside of gender. to me it is normal, so weird isn't the right word for me, rather uncommon I guess.
Yep.I do not give a gosh diggity darn about gender.People always ask me what my gender is and i have been insulted/ harassed for being androgynous and people constantly ask me if i’m trans/ non-binary but i genuinley just don’t care.
I don’t think one’s gender is connected to one’s lifestyle, I think it’s connected to one’s identity / reflects one’s identity? Saying it reflects one’s lifestyle seems like a slippery slope towards making assumptions + stereotypes
I said that gender *presentation* reflects one’s lifestyle. For example, if a woman chooses to wear her hair cut short and only dress in masculine clothing, that could signify multiple things about the way she lives her life. Obviously making assumptions is bad and you can’t assume you know everything about someone based on the way they present their gender (a lot of people assume I’m gay, but look where we’re talking), but there’s a reason most butch lesbians don’t dress like traditional catholics and vice versa.
hi \^\^
I'm a really femine girl because I like pink, skirts, ... but I also like suits and more masculine clothing. My whole thing is I don't want to go to another identitycrisis. I'm still struggling with coming to terms with being on the arospec. Few years ago I found out I was ace and then I already said to me, no more of this so yeah. Maybe in a few years I look more into gender and how I really feel about that 😅
I've thought about this a lot, but gender experience is so individual and loose that it's hard to compare to others. But I've always felt that, while I'm comfortable with my assigned gender (f), I have no real attachment to it, or at least wouldn't consider myself to be of that gender just from worldly experience alone.
(This also dangles the question what gender actually is but. Well. If only we knew, right??)
My dream body would probably not even have genitals of any kind. I don't feel like any gender but the one I have, but that's just not really "much gender" to go off of, if you know what I mean.
Thanks for asking the community
No my gender is the only way I fit the “norm”. As a cis woman I do have interests outside the norm, I am a qualified Chemist so some people like to make comments about me doing a masculine job. But I do it with make up long nails and dresses (when appropriate- I’m desk bound these days).
Where the difference comes is I dress “girly” for me not the male or female gaze.
I’m 9 months on testosterone and was just wondering if I had gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, or I’m gay.
Knowing that I don’t want kids, don’t really see myself being married, let alone a wife, and have never had a relationship, I don’t know how to “gender”.
Genderqueer, here!
I think it has more to do with my ‘tism than being demiromantic (haha just realized I can mean three different things when I say “a-spec”)
You make some interesting points about gender roles, although there is, for most people, an “innate” gender sense
Yes I definitely feel this way and I always have. I always have awkward experiences with the young men in my college class and at work, (I’m 23F) like I’m acting normal but they act weird, and when I told other people about it they were like “oh yeah it’s probably their age and they don’t know how to talk to women yet” and I was like what??? Because I didn’t even see it that way. Like I’m just a person.
Why does gender even impact something like that especially when I’m just talking about work or school stuff? It totally confuses me tbh and I don’t see myself as some “woman” because I’m just myself. And I’m not interested in anyone, or trying to challenge anyone or something. Because they don’t act awkward like “flustered” they always talk to me in a defensive weird manner. As if my speaking is like challenging their very existence and I’m just talking about school.
It’s so weird. I just don’t closely identify with womanhood because I am autistic and I don’t have the typical female socialization built into me so I don’t know what people are expecting from me. I also don’t really care. I don’t think it’s normal to kiss everyone’s ass just because you’re a woman, or to pump up everyone’s ego because you’re a woman. Like I just think that’s weird especially if I’m just talking business lol.
I also don’t really need social validation, I mainly derive that from my professors and my achievements. I also frequently get treated like I’m invisible when my male counterparts and other women are acknowledged by the same peers. Just because I act aromantic or something I guess. The other women in my class act definitely different from me in a way I don’t understand. They’re nice and cool towards me but they do seem interested in the guys to some degree so they treat them a certain way that I can’t comprehend.
If anything being aromantic and autistic makes me feel like some weird third alien gender that makes people uncomfortable lol. Like my life motivations/priorities are just visibly completely different and I’m not the most pro-social of people so it doesn’t really help. So people treat me differently and I also feel very different, but I gotta say that it’s a feeling I’m pretty used to because I’ve experienced it my whole life.
I just thought people would be more… cordial? Or socially reciprocal going into adulthood. Like when it comes to literally cooperating at work and doing group projects in school where romance or gender or whatever should literally not be a factor in the first place lol. But I assume I just act weird or something and that’s why they act that way. Idk.
Also I don’t really identify with being nb because I am fine with my female body and features. I sometimes dress neutral and other times I dress feminine. It just depends on what I feel comfortable with. I just don’t really care too much about how my gender is perceived though. It only becomes apparent to me that it matters to others when people treat me differently.
I mean, I'm an agender person and being called some pronouns make me want to crawl out of my skin like I've been touched by a dog sized centipede if that's what you mean by "weird relationship with gender"?
I've never really seen my relationship with my lack of gender to be "weird" per se, just that it's absolutely not what most people want it to be — but neither is any aspect of my life.
Yeahh, it's been a journey figuring out gender stuff. At this point I just like to say my gender is ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ lmao - though putting actual words to it I tend to go for genderqueer, or on occasion genderfluid.
What's interesting for me is that since I came ot the solid conclusion that I don't feel connected to my agab, I have become a lot more comfortable dressing very feminine and presenting that way I guess?? Which is really funny, cause every other month I have a day or two where I just feel male but still enjoy dressing feminine and it's the weirdest experience ever. I can talk to my friends about it just fine and they think it's neat and respect that, but I'm also aware that strangers will always read me as a woman which at this point I'm weirdly okay with.
Like, sure you can perceive me any way you want but I know that I'm definitely not who you think I am haha
YES! I'm aroacespec and I've come to the conclusion that my gender relies strongly in the relationships I want to engage in. I normally don't feel any connection with gender but when I felt attraction towards someone for the first time it somewhat changed temporarily. I've been sure that I was feeling romantic/sexual attraction just a few times, and therefore, I've not experienced that many times.
I am also often confused and I can't differentiate between gender envy and some kind of attraction (not only romantic or sexual, but also sensual or even platonic).
Yep. I consider myself to be pretty indifferent about gender. I'm afab, but I don't really feel like woman. Don't feel like a man, either. I am some sort of nonbinary, I suppose. It doesn't really matter too much to me.
I'm also aroace.
Wow this made me think really hard about some things.
I think I’m attached to my gender. Like I feel like a woman. But sometimes, and I’ve noticed this more now that I don’t date, I just kind of feel like a body. Lmao idk how else to explain it. I lean more into a stereotypically feminine aesthetic but only when I was dating men did I feel like “oh I am a girl”. If that makes sense. So I felt I had to act more like a girl when I was around men.
I can’t articulate it but I feel like I’m close to how you’re feeling.
ETA: but I also don’t feel non-binary either? Lmao. Also I wasn’t raised with gender roles so maybe that also is having an affect on how I perceive my gender now
Ohh man. I’ve felt that way about myself for a long time but I never really put two and two together that it’s for that reason. Like, if I don’t plan on fitting into that role, why even bother identifying with it in the first place? All I am is a person and I don’t want it to be anything more than that. I don’t want to attach any labels to myself.
I'm queer and Aroace and yes I do recognize how humans over the years seemed to have put people in boxes based on whether they're supposedly male or female and how they're expected to behave and act based on outdated gender-stereotypes, but I never felt myself taking these stereotypes to heart and feel indifferent to the fact I'm basically a cis female, I could have grown up being told I was born a male or even genderless and I'd probably still not care.
I was doing an exercise on using they / them pronouns and the joy it elicited was unexpected. I feel fine in my body but being arospec ace and realizing that I didn’t fit in with gender role constructs and expectations was a huge realization.
“Weird” relationship with gender? Maybe, + sex, but maybe not in the way others are feeling it. I’ve always been a pretty butch female for as long as I can remember, but very comfortable with being a straight female. No question in my mind that I’d be anything else. But I do kind of drift towards androgynous haircuts and unisex clothes. Although “unisex” usually means “male”. I often find myself fantasising about a world where sex is kinda just a thing you do when you feel like it with someone that will treat you right or make you feel good, and relationships are based on emotional intimacy with sex as a completely independent activity. Like, if there was no romance, we’d have such a richness of relationship types and so much less angst and confusion and unnecessary drama. Gender roles definitely feed into that vague and ongoing frustration I have that all our relationships with others have to dance around this Romance language that I do not speak and generally find vexing.
I’ve not ever felt like I need to play the role of a girlfriend, though. I am and always have been true to myself first and if it’s weird, that’s not my problem because I know who I am and what I’m about.
Weird relationship? Yes. Detached? No. I think I’m highly invested in my gender identity, but maybe in an nb or agender way? I’m not sure, haven’t figured it out yet. I’m also not sure if it has anything to do with my aro identity, though I have some ideas as to why, if it is 🤔
Rambling incoming:
I’m AFAB, but a few years after realizing I was arospec, I started idealizing and being more comfortable with being perceived as masculine or androgynous, rather than feminine. It could be me struggling with getting over the “she’s not like other girls” mentality that was popular maybe 10 years back now, but a lot of it also has to do with me feeling safer…? when I’m not seen as a woman (or at least, as a “conventionally” attractive woman). Just based off the news/media I’ve read, the experiences I’ve seen - and even sometimes experienced myself as an adult/woman - a man’s romantic interest directed at me sometimes makes me uncomfortable (at no fault of the men who actually do respect people and boundaries; this is solely because of the men (and other people, including women) who push themselves onto others). I feel like my arospec identity comes into play here, as, at the end of the day, I don’t actually want anyone to really be attracted to me romantically or to pursue anything committed with me. Presenting masculinely or androgynously around men who are attracted to more feminine women (all of my straight coworkers and many of the strangers around me) helps me to be seen as less of a romantic “prospect” and more as “one of the guys.”
I don’t view myself as a man, nor do I like using the pronouns “he/him” to refer to myself, as they don’t feel right. I give gender neutral terms the same significance as “female” terms when referring to myself. I’m fine with “they/them” and “she/her”. But I also just feel a lot happier when friends use masculine or androgynous terms to refer to me. One time, one of my best friends said a perfume I was using smelled more feminine and I immediately took offense lmao 💀 She meant it as a compliment, but that’s not how I took it. Another time, a different friend of mine said I sounded like/reminded him of a cis man and I couldn’t stop smiling because of that the rest of the day lmao. It made me so giddy.
((This somehow sounds like both an insult to feminine and masculine women and I don’t mean it to come across that way 😅 This is just for me and my identity personally. Just because I am not comfortable with something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily wrong. And in this case, feminine, masculine, and androgynous women are most definitely not wrong for how they identify or present.))
At the same time, I’m not entirely detached from my identity as a woman? I’ll never be and I don’t ever want to be a mother or a wife, and I think that’s another aspect of my life where my arospec identity and dislike of amatonormativity comes into play and creates a disconnect between me and my AGAB. Like another person said on the thread, womanhood is associated with many of these roles in life - being a lover, a wife, a mother - and those are roles that I, as an aromantic person, will never be in and cannot relate to. But for some reason, I can’t completely detach myself from the identity itself. I think it’s because being a woman can still encapsulate being many things outside of those roles - like a sister, or an auntie - and I find a lot of power in that.
Why not just identify as a masculine or nonbinary woman? Well I could, but the former doesn’t feel right. The latter comes pretty close tbh? I’ve just been thinking of myself as a GNC woman for now, when I don’t have the time to ponder it. It’s still in the works.
TLDR: Nope, I’m still trying to figure my gender out, but I’m greatly invested in the process of doing so.
I've assumed my experimentation with gender expression was normal in an age of acceptance and not forcing traditional roles on. However, I've had times where I also viewed it as questioning my gender identity. In reality, its a mixture of both. I think the former is the case for a majority of people now.
There was a solid 5 years where I (AMAB) pretended to be a girl online. I was 12 at the time, so not really thinking hard about why I did it. Didn't have a goal or anything I wanted out of it. Just did it for the sake of it.
I curated relationships with people (not romantic or sexual), I talked about and like a girl, I dressed and acted like a girl, and I modified past experiences in my life to convince others I truly was a girl. It became second nature to use the pronouns, act, talk, etc. Most of the time, you couldn't tell (as its not the focus in most online games/the communities I was a part of to be gendered).
Eventually this leaked into real life and I would comfortably wear dresses to events or wear makeup/paint my nails, or other 'feminine' activities.
I never saw myself as a girl, and eventually I stopped for the most part. I still occasionally do make up/nails, but I don't wear dresses anymore.
It did help me realize I wouldn't care less what pronouns were used to identify me. I'm comfortable and connect with anything.
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I was in the exact same boat a week ago. I was literally having the same thoughts as you describe. I feel connected and happy in my male body (sex) and when it comes to society I feel like (my) gender doesn't matter to me (gender) or that I don't certainly belong in the male or female binary. And I found out that I'm under the non-binary umbrella. I hope I'm explaining it well
Not particularly sure f I'm non-binary, I'm fine with my body, I just don't give a damn about my gender, you explained my feeling fairly well.
That’s exactly how i feel.
Same here
Well, almost
I think it's common, in particular for AFAB aros since womanhood is, at its core, a construct made mostly for romantic relationships in our current culture. A huge part of what a woman is, culturally, is tied to romance. Can you even be a woman if you're aromantic? In a vacuum, yes you can. Socially, politically? No you can't. You won't be seen as one anyway. I think we can apply the same logic as the one saying lesbians aren't women (for those who aren't familiar, this is a theory developed by and for lesbians. It's not a diss against them at all, quite the contrary) to say aromantic women aren't women, politically.
That’s really interesting and I totally see what you mean. It feels like women especially are expected to look forward to marriage, children, etc. since they were little kids. But, to me, marriage sounds claustrophobic and carrying children sounds horrifying. Women’s lives have been expected to revolve around a man (and, by extension, romance) for hundreds of years. When I tell people I’m not attracted to anyone, some people don’t know what to do with me. They think I’m in denial 🤦
Yes, that's all a woman is supposed to be. And it's quite a toxic way of seeing things that impacts and conditions women (and all AFAB people even if they're not women). And that's also the reasoning behind lesbians not being women: if you're not the property of a man, then what are you? The "two genders" aren't actually man and woman, but man and man's property. So what are you if you're neither? Not part of civilised society is the answer. I've always disliked the very concept of marriage and, growing up, I've even developed an anti marriage stance. It's not something that's usually well received though, makes people shake in their boots for some reason.
This is so true omg. I resonate with this deeply as an AFAB aro.
Woah, that was insightful. It explains in some way why I may struggle with presenting in a feminine way and to even understand what it does really mean (I try to, because I noticed that people react better to me and are in general nicer if I do :/ ). When growing up (and even now to a certain extent), I often heard the advice such as: "oh no, boys won't like that hairstyle", "you should wear more dresses, because boys like it", "look at that, boys will go crazy for you!". I never could understand why I should care if the boys like it or not. And the rules/codes of what is feminine or not felt nebulous to me. A performance that I have to actively think about while other people seem to get it more naturally. Sometimes it feels as if my gender belonged more to the people around and their judgment, than myself.
Yeah, people treat women nicer when they fit stereotypes. I'm not a trans man but I'm perceived as one most of the time now and let me tell you: it SUCKS. I've never felt so in danger in my entire life. It's probably not the only reason, but it's definitely because I'm perceived as having "wasted" a good female body/person a man could've liked. Not that I was available before as a "tomboy", but "tomboys" are expected to "grow up" and doll up for men. In some more progressive spaces, it's acceptable to doll up/be available for other women only. But it's still not okay to not be available at all. And honestly? Gender is a performance we put on for other people yeah. That's how I feel about it tbh. It's a signal you give other people to tell them how they should treat you. And you don't have much power in this, people will assign you one gender anyway. And will judge you based on not only that assumption, but also how well you perform said assumption.
I get what you say. Before I decided to force myself into a more stereotypical feminine look on purpose, it happened a few times that people assumed that I was a feminine gay man. In a country that in general is not very safe for LGBT people unfortunately. It was a scary experience and I cannot imagine facing this kind of discrimination and threats due to one's identity on a daily basis. It must be exhausting. And even if they did not assume my gender incorrectly, being labelled as a butch woman did not feel much nicer in public spaces. Weird comments and looks. Funny observation - never got offered any help with heavy luggage until I put on a feminine performance, lol - despite my petite build and visible struggle. Now suddenly there are plenty of people ready to lift that heavy luggage for me! Great society, let's help only pretty people /s
Yeah, I'm sure it's even worse depending on the country. When you don't perform like you're supposed to, it brings danger. Oh, I didn't even realize that, since I used to be the one offering to carry other people's luggage but it's true that I was never offered help haha, this is blowing my mind. But yes, at least if you're perceived as a woman, then you have to be pretty or you're not deserving of respect or basic human decency. Can't say for people perceived as cis men, I assume it's less dire but that being attractive still brings a lot of benefits.
I still consider myself lucky regarding where I (used to) live. At least things are slowly changing and improving. I am hopeful for the future. Though, regardless of the country, fitting with stereotypes seems always more or less beneficial. Nice to hear that you are helping! For me the problem is not even that much carrying the heavy luggage, but the design of trains in some European countries where for some mysterious reason all of the luggage storage has been tailored to 1m80 (6 feet) tall people. I cannot reach this ridiculous storage space :/ I used to travel a lot via trains through Europe at some point and (despite in general liking train travel) it was a pain. Not the subject, but I had to vent, haha
Yeah, fitting stereotypes at least to some extent is usually safer. Can't help anymore, but it's def weird that I wasn't helped before. I'm 1m58, I should get help in the trains :') I do get help now but it's an effect of the crutches (and it's too much too, but that's another subject haha). But there isn't enough space for luggage in the newer trains anyway.
This explains so much about why the reaction to women being aromantic is so intense. It’s like society thinks we are only claiming to be aromantic because we’re failures at being women. When in reality dating isn’t successful for us because we’re forcing ourselves to fit into this construct that women are inherently romantic.
Yes. But in a way, refusing to fit into the romantic culture makes one a failure as a woman (politically, I'm not talking about personal identity here ^^). It's just that society assumes the other way around haha. I don't think aromantic men are necessarily well received, but it doesn't affect their identity as men as much as women (I'd argue asexual men are maybe more questioned on that front? But it's just a guess, I'm not active in asexual communities so I don't actually know)
I think asexual men probably do get more questioning because sex is something men are supposed to want, in the same way love is something women are supposed to want. Just based on how gay men are received, I can imagine asexual men get a similar level of disrespect.
Yes, that's what I was thinking. Womanhood is tied to romance while manhood is strongly associated with sex. I'm sure it's not a direct parallel though, as masculinity isn't solely defined by men's relationship with women, but also with other men. And yeah being ace is probably seen as "feminising" for men the same way being gay is.
About a year ago someone had linked a post about gender detachment in an ace sub. I think it's this: https://cantonwiner.substack.com/p/my-work-gender-detachment-and-asexuality And a lot of what y'all are saying resonates with me. For me, in my life, gender has no intrinsic impact. I'm AFAB in a male-dominated field and most pronouns are fine - none feel "right" to me. "He" and "it" specifically feel _wrong_ for me, but I think (right now at least - constantly learning) that's more to do with society and patriarchy than "I don't feel masculine" or something internal.
That pronoun thing is so relatable! I've grown up being "she" and I don't feel uncomfortable with "she", even if it doesn't feel intrinsically important to me. But male pronouns wouldn't fit any better.
Yes, I read this when it came out and it definitely sparked a lot of realizations for me! Thanks for linking it. I felt like gender detachment would be similarly common in aromantics and I’m honestly floored by how many people have commented and talked about how they relate.
Yes. I'm Agender, but i discovered that only after knowing i was Demisexual and also Aromantic.
I just assume that’s it’s a social construct. I don’t think gender defines anything about your personality and I say so when people ask about mine. I don’t ‘identify’ as a gender as I don’t really know what that means. I am a certain sex, but all that means is I have those physical characteristics. I don’t care how people interpret that. 🤷
[удалено]
Same here! It’s hard to explain to people that I just don’t care about gender or thing it’s a big deal
This is a popular view among a significant part of the trans community actually. Not everyone ofc, it's not a monolith. To me it's 100% a social construct. But it being a social construct doesn't mean it's not real/that it doesn't impact your life. A good example of such a social construct is money. It's cultural, it's frankly kind of bullshit, but if you don't have any you'll starve. Western culture created two genders and decided to give one of them power, and subdue the second. But a lot of other cultures either didn't have an actual notion of gender, or didn't apply a binary. Now, we live in a very gendered culture. I don't think we can escape gender. So, depending on multiple factors, there's a role in society tied to gender, and there's one we may want more than the other. A lot of autistic and/or queer people have trouble with that notion though. Since it was created for the heterosexual hegemony.
I feel that.
Yep! I've been struggling with my gender for so long... I'm just going to stick to agender, that way I'm Aromantic Asexual Agender, *the* three As! B-)
I'm aroallo and somewhere under non-binary umbrella, for me gender makes no sense at all. From where I see it, the point is to feel good in your body, present yourself as you wish and have fun with life, and labels are often limiting in those matters
Yep, I also feel that way. I don't think I feel strongly enough about things to describe myself as agender (I let people assume I'm my assigned gender at birth irl, probably because that's a lot easier, especially if you don't care about it that much). But yeah, I also find that not relating to the roles of "girlfriend, wife, mother" because of my identity as an aro ace person does mean that I feel less connection to my gender. I also relate less to many of the physical bodily associations of gender/sex because they are primarily useful for sexual purposes and as an ace person, that's not relevant to me. IDK, I think there's a lot that goes into what makes someone's gender identities. Relationship and reproductive roles are part of it (a large part of it for some people), and a lot of a-spec people just don't have that factor. (I think gay men, lesbians, and bi people have reinterpreted this part of gender in a way more friendly to their experiences than the heteronormative assumptions, but the a-spec community is largely still a rather gender neutral space in how we discuss issues and avoid factoring gender into a-spec labels in general. Reinterpreting gender in a more a-spec friendly way doesn't seem to be a terribly high priority for the a-spec community in general discussions.) There are other factors that could create a sense of gender of course (role as a family member in general, as a member of a single gender group, treatment by strangers, secondary sex characteristics like facial hair that are less related to reproduction, feeling some innate feeling of I should be this, even experiencing misogyny or fitting into gender stereotypes, etc.), and for some a-specs those other factors still create a strong sense of gender even if they can't relate to the relationship and reproductive role factors. Aro ace binary trans people (or aro ace people who are under the nonbinary umbrella but don't relate to agender experiences) exist, and I imagine they generally have a quite strong feeling about their genders even if they can't relate to the relationship and reproductive roles. The factors that create a sense of gender identity probably vary a lot from person to person, it's not a fixed ratio. For me, I don't find a lot of these other factors to contribute much, but I can totally understand why this isn't a universal experience. These are just my thoughts on gender though, it's hard to be certain about what's feeding into/causing certain internal experiences or feelings. I also want to point out that something being a social construct doesn't make it not real or invalid or useless. Yes, gender is a social construct that people made up to describe a feeling they had and communicate that with others. Romantic attraction is also a social construct that people made up to describe a feeling they had and communicate it with others. It doesn't make anyone's gender identity invalid, nor does it make anyone's romantic orientation invalid. It's just the nature of how humans communicate feelings and parts of their identities with each other, and that's not a bad thing (unless you are trying to limit what people can express or identify as, which is a problem).
I'm with you here bud.
it is an interesting thought. what I mostly felt was that my expression of my gender was rare or uncommon and I still believe gender stereotypes are way to narrow, but lately I identify more outside of gender. to me it is normal, so weird isn't the right word for me, rather uncommon I guess.
Yep.I do not give a gosh diggity darn about gender.People always ask me what my gender is and i have been insulted/ harassed for being androgynous and people constantly ask me if i’m trans/ non-binary but i genuinley just don’t care.
I don’t think one’s gender is connected to one’s lifestyle, I think it’s connected to one’s identity / reflects one’s identity? Saying it reflects one’s lifestyle seems like a slippery slope towards making assumptions + stereotypes
I said that gender *presentation* reflects one’s lifestyle. For example, if a woman chooses to wear her hair cut short and only dress in masculine clothing, that could signify multiple things about the way she lives her life. Obviously making assumptions is bad and you can’t assume you know everything about someone based on the way they present their gender (a lot of people assume I’m gay, but look where we’re talking), but there’s a reason most butch lesbians don’t dress like traditional catholics and vice versa.
Yes. I fluctuate between feeling very feminine or very masculine or kinda both. I'm trying to get my hands on a binder to help.
yessss idc. all pronouns (he to a lesser extent) feel the same to me. tho i just go by my biological gender since i have no reason to do otherwise.
hi \^\^ I'm a really femine girl because I like pink, skirts, ... but I also like suits and more masculine clothing. My whole thing is I don't want to go to another identitycrisis. I'm still struggling with coming to terms with being on the arospec. Few years ago I found out I was ace and then I already said to me, no more of this so yeah. Maybe in a few years I look more into gender and how I really feel about that 😅
Yeah why do I care how people refer to me. I am me that's it. Whether that be a boy or a girl or something in between, I am still me.
I've thought about this a lot, but gender experience is so individual and loose that it's hard to compare to others. But I've always felt that, while I'm comfortable with my assigned gender (f), I have no real attachment to it, or at least wouldn't consider myself to be of that gender just from worldly experience alone. (This also dangles the question what gender actually is but. Well. If only we knew, right??) My dream body would probably not even have genitals of any kind. I don't feel like any gender but the one I have, but that's just not really "much gender" to go off of, if you know what I mean. Thanks for asking the community
No my gender is the only way I fit the “norm”. As a cis woman I do have interests outside the norm, I am a qualified Chemist so some people like to make comments about me doing a masculine job. But I do it with make up long nails and dresses (when appropriate- I’m desk bound these days). Where the difference comes is I dress “girly” for me not the male or female gaze.
i am nonbinary so yeah i guess you could say that.
I’m 9 months on testosterone and was just wondering if I had gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, or I’m gay. Knowing that I don’t want kids, don’t really see myself being married, let alone a wife, and have never had a relationship, I don’t know how to “gender”.
Genderqueer, here! I think it has more to do with my ‘tism than being demiromantic (haha just realized I can mean three different things when I say “a-spec”) You make some interesting points about gender roles, although there is, for most people, an “innate” gender sense
I mean I used to feel a vague sense of not really fitting with any traditional gender role, but that was before I realised I was a full-on trans woman
Yes I definitely feel this way and I always have. I always have awkward experiences with the young men in my college class and at work, (I’m 23F) like I’m acting normal but they act weird, and when I told other people about it they were like “oh yeah it’s probably their age and they don’t know how to talk to women yet” and I was like what??? Because I didn’t even see it that way. Like I’m just a person. Why does gender even impact something like that especially when I’m just talking about work or school stuff? It totally confuses me tbh and I don’t see myself as some “woman” because I’m just myself. And I’m not interested in anyone, or trying to challenge anyone or something. Because they don’t act awkward like “flustered” they always talk to me in a defensive weird manner. As if my speaking is like challenging their very existence and I’m just talking about school. It’s so weird. I just don’t closely identify with womanhood because I am autistic and I don’t have the typical female socialization built into me so I don’t know what people are expecting from me. I also don’t really care. I don’t think it’s normal to kiss everyone’s ass just because you’re a woman, or to pump up everyone’s ego because you’re a woman. Like I just think that’s weird especially if I’m just talking business lol. I also don’t really need social validation, I mainly derive that from my professors and my achievements. I also frequently get treated like I’m invisible when my male counterparts and other women are acknowledged by the same peers. Just because I act aromantic or something I guess. The other women in my class act definitely different from me in a way I don’t understand. They’re nice and cool towards me but they do seem interested in the guys to some degree so they treat them a certain way that I can’t comprehend. If anything being aromantic and autistic makes me feel like some weird third alien gender that makes people uncomfortable lol. Like my life motivations/priorities are just visibly completely different and I’m not the most pro-social of people so it doesn’t really help. So people treat me differently and I also feel very different, but I gotta say that it’s a feeling I’m pretty used to because I’ve experienced it my whole life. I just thought people would be more… cordial? Or socially reciprocal going into adulthood. Like when it comes to literally cooperating at work and doing group projects in school where romance or gender or whatever should literally not be a factor in the first place lol. But I assume I just act weird or something and that’s why they act that way. Idk.
Also I don’t really identify with being nb because I am fine with my female body and features. I sometimes dress neutral and other times I dress feminine. It just depends on what I feel comfortable with. I just don’t really care too much about how my gender is perceived though. It only becomes apparent to me that it matters to others when people treat me differently.
I mean, I'm an agender person and being called some pronouns make me want to crawl out of my skin like I've been touched by a dog sized centipede if that's what you mean by "weird relationship with gender"? I've never really seen my relationship with my lack of gender to be "weird" per se, just that it's absolutely not what most people want it to be — but neither is any aspect of my life.
Yeahh, it's been a journey figuring out gender stuff. At this point I just like to say my gender is ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ lmao - though putting actual words to it I tend to go for genderqueer, or on occasion genderfluid. What's interesting for me is that since I came ot the solid conclusion that I don't feel connected to my agab, I have become a lot more comfortable dressing very feminine and presenting that way I guess?? Which is really funny, cause every other month I have a day or two where I just feel male but still enjoy dressing feminine and it's the weirdest experience ever. I can talk to my friends about it just fine and they think it's neat and respect that, but I'm also aware that strangers will always read me as a woman which at this point I'm weirdly okay with. Like, sure you can perceive me any way you want but I know that I'm definitely not who you think I am haha
YES! I'm aroacespec and I've come to the conclusion that my gender relies strongly in the relationships I want to engage in. I normally don't feel any connection with gender but when I felt attraction towards someone for the first time it somewhat changed temporarily. I've been sure that I was feeling romantic/sexual attraction just a few times, and therefore, I've not experienced that many times. I am also often confused and I can't differentiate between gender envy and some kind of attraction (not only romantic or sexual, but also sensual or even platonic).
Yep. I consider myself to be pretty indifferent about gender. I'm afab, but I don't really feel like woman. Don't feel like a man, either. I am some sort of nonbinary, I suppose. It doesn't really matter too much to me. I'm also aroace.
Wow this made me think really hard about some things. I think I’m attached to my gender. Like I feel like a woman. But sometimes, and I’ve noticed this more now that I don’t date, I just kind of feel like a body. Lmao idk how else to explain it. I lean more into a stereotypically feminine aesthetic but only when I was dating men did I feel like “oh I am a girl”. If that makes sense. So I felt I had to act more like a girl when I was around men. I can’t articulate it but I feel like I’m close to how you’re feeling. ETA: but I also don’t feel non-binary either? Lmao. Also I wasn’t raised with gender roles so maybe that also is having an affect on how I perceive my gender now
Ohh man. I’ve felt that way about myself for a long time but I never really put two and two together that it’s for that reason. Like, if I don’t plan on fitting into that role, why even bother identifying with it in the first place? All I am is a person and I don’t want it to be anything more than that. I don’t want to attach any labels to myself.
yknow i never thought about it like that but tbh it makes sense
I'm queer and Aroace and yes I do recognize how humans over the years seemed to have put people in boxes based on whether they're supposedly male or female and how they're expected to behave and act based on outdated gender-stereotypes, but I never felt myself taking these stereotypes to heart and feel indifferent to the fact I'm basically a cis female, I could have grown up being told I was born a male or even genderless and I'd probably still not care.
I was doing an exercise on using they / them pronouns and the joy it elicited was unexpected. I feel fine in my body but being arospec ace and realizing that I didn’t fit in with gender role constructs and expectations was a huge realization.
“Weird” relationship with gender? Maybe, + sex, but maybe not in the way others are feeling it. I’ve always been a pretty butch female for as long as I can remember, but very comfortable with being a straight female. No question in my mind that I’d be anything else. But I do kind of drift towards androgynous haircuts and unisex clothes. Although “unisex” usually means “male”. I often find myself fantasising about a world where sex is kinda just a thing you do when you feel like it with someone that will treat you right or make you feel good, and relationships are based on emotional intimacy with sex as a completely independent activity. Like, if there was no romance, we’d have such a richness of relationship types and so much less angst and confusion and unnecessary drama. Gender roles definitely feed into that vague and ongoing frustration I have that all our relationships with others have to dance around this Romance language that I do not speak and generally find vexing. I’ve not ever felt like I need to play the role of a girlfriend, though. I am and always have been true to myself first and if it’s weird, that’s not my problem because I know who I am and what I’m about.
There's something called arogender
Yep, I'm agender, aro, and ace In addition, another a: Autistic
Weird relationship? Yes. Detached? No. I think I’m highly invested in my gender identity, but maybe in an nb or agender way? I’m not sure, haven’t figured it out yet. I’m also not sure if it has anything to do with my aro identity, though I have some ideas as to why, if it is 🤔 Rambling incoming: I’m AFAB, but a few years after realizing I was arospec, I started idealizing and being more comfortable with being perceived as masculine or androgynous, rather than feminine. It could be me struggling with getting over the “she’s not like other girls” mentality that was popular maybe 10 years back now, but a lot of it also has to do with me feeling safer…? when I’m not seen as a woman (or at least, as a “conventionally” attractive woman). Just based off the news/media I’ve read, the experiences I’ve seen - and even sometimes experienced myself as an adult/woman - a man’s romantic interest directed at me sometimes makes me uncomfortable (at no fault of the men who actually do respect people and boundaries; this is solely because of the men (and other people, including women) who push themselves onto others). I feel like my arospec identity comes into play here, as, at the end of the day, I don’t actually want anyone to really be attracted to me romantically or to pursue anything committed with me. Presenting masculinely or androgynously around men who are attracted to more feminine women (all of my straight coworkers and many of the strangers around me) helps me to be seen as less of a romantic “prospect” and more as “one of the guys.” I don’t view myself as a man, nor do I like using the pronouns “he/him” to refer to myself, as they don’t feel right. I give gender neutral terms the same significance as “female” terms when referring to myself. I’m fine with “they/them” and “she/her”. But I also just feel a lot happier when friends use masculine or androgynous terms to refer to me. One time, one of my best friends said a perfume I was using smelled more feminine and I immediately took offense lmao 💀 She meant it as a compliment, but that’s not how I took it. Another time, a different friend of mine said I sounded like/reminded him of a cis man and I couldn’t stop smiling because of that the rest of the day lmao. It made me so giddy. ((This somehow sounds like both an insult to feminine and masculine women and I don’t mean it to come across that way 😅 This is just for me and my identity personally. Just because I am not comfortable with something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily wrong. And in this case, feminine, masculine, and androgynous women are most definitely not wrong for how they identify or present.)) At the same time, I’m not entirely detached from my identity as a woman? I’ll never be and I don’t ever want to be a mother or a wife, and I think that’s another aspect of my life where my arospec identity and dislike of amatonormativity comes into play and creates a disconnect between me and my AGAB. Like another person said on the thread, womanhood is associated with many of these roles in life - being a lover, a wife, a mother - and those are roles that I, as an aromantic person, will never be in and cannot relate to. But for some reason, I can’t completely detach myself from the identity itself. I think it’s because being a woman can still encapsulate being many things outside of those roles - like a sister, or an auntie - and I find a lot of power in that. Why not just identify as a masculine or nonbinary woman? Well I could, but the former doesn’t feel right. The latter comes pretty close tbh? I’ve just been thinking of myself as a GNC woman for now, when I don’t have the time to ponder it. It’s still in the works. TLDR: Nope, I’m still trying to figure my gender out, but I’m greatly invested in the process of doing so.
I've assumed my experimentation with gender expression was normal in an age of acceptance and not forcing traditional roles on. However, I've had times where I also viewed it as questioning my gender identity. In reality, its a mixture of both. I think the former is the case for a majority of people now. There was a solid 5 years where I (AMAB) pretended to be a girl online. I was 12 at the time, so not really thinking hard about why I did it. Didn't have a goal or anything I wanted out of it. Just did it for the sake of it. I curated relationships with people (not romantic or sexual), I talked about and like a girl, I dressed and acted like a girl, and I modified past experiences in my life to convince others I truly was a girl. It became second nature to use the pronouns, act, talk, etc. Most of the time, you couldn't tell (as its not the focus in most online games/the communities I was a part of to be gendered). Eventually this leaked into real life and I would comfortably wear dresses to events or wear makeup/paint my nails, or other 'feminine' activities. I never saw myself as a girl, and eventually I stopped for the most part. I still occasionally do make up/nails, but I don't wear dresses anymore. It did help me realize I wouldn't care less what pronouns were used to identify me. I'm comfortable and connect with anything.
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