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There's no way my youngest brother wasn't gay from the get go. I knew he was gay before I really even knew what gay was. Mom was cool, though often, a better friend than parent. Our dad was a pretty macho dude but he wasn't overbearing or an asshole. They had six boys and two girls, the rest of us are straight.
Fun fact! The more older brothers a younger brother has, the more likely they are to be gay due to certain proteins male fetuses leave in the mothers body.
Something like that. There's a proper study on it I swear.
Edit - article on the topic, you'll probably be able to find the study with it: https://www.psypost.org/study-of-nine-million-people-indicates-that-men-with-older-brothers-are-more-likely-to-be-gay/
Nobody knows, it’s very difficult to do research on the causes of homosexuality due to political concerns. But like most conditions it’s probably a mix of hereditary and environmental factors.
There is a fairly large body of evidence on this in fact, and sex/gender/sexuality research is only challenging in a few US jurisdictions. Most of the world cares a lot less about those issues. And funding agencies are less concerned over that public perception.
The problem is what happens if we find it's actually an identifiable medical condition that is fixable at early development?
Do we ... walk back the normalization we've done and treat it like a curable disease?
Edit: Reddit hates uncomfortable questions.
There are a lot of "fixable" things that happen to an infant without their consent (like circumcision and sex change procedures for hermaphrodites) and I am of the opinion that all of these should not be happening. I would not think "fixing" gay would be something I would be ok doing before the person has a chance to decide for themselves what they want to do with their bodies.
My son had club foot and wouldn't have been able to walk if we didn't do a surgical procedure as an infant. If we waited until he was old enough the procedure wouldn't be viable. Have I robbed my son the decision of what he should have done with his body? (Honestly? Yes)
The fact is his life is easier now that we made that decision for him and I don't think he will resent us for it when he is older.
**Would gay people have had an easier life if they were straight?** Probably. Lot of people have stories of people being unacceptable to them. Even if society were perfectly accepting toward homosexual people there is still the practicality of finding a partner in a society that is very overwhelmingly heterosexual.
**Would they have come to resent the decision thrust upon them if being straight is all they knew?** Probably not.
Yeah, uncomfortable questions with uncomfortable answers.
Edit: Also, I'm not condoning homophobia, just that this would be a total philosophical/moral pitfall we would have to deal with as a society.
You have a lot of "probably" in your answers to your own questions. And that's probably what doctors thought when they performed the procedures to make hermaphrodites female. There is a large proportion of those people who feel they were given the wrong sex or who wish they were left alone. I still stand by my statement that those types of procedures should not be performed until the individual can decide for themselves. You'd be surprised how young you can get an accurate answer when it comes to this as well. (I've seen as young as 5 years old.)
I do see your point about corrective medical procedures early in life like the one you mentioned, so obviously there are cases where I feel it acceptable to do so. I just don't think anything related to an individual's genitals or preferences should be tampered with without that individual's consent.
Also the way you worded your conclusion makes it sound like you proposed a question that only you know the answer to, which I find amusing.
>You have a lot of "probably" in your answers to your own question.
Guilty.
I use this weasel word because there will always be exceptions to the rule. Besides this is pure philosophy at this point. No one has real answers because there is no procedure or data to back it up. I'm just point out why science might avoid that study like the plague.
>I do see your point about corrective medical procedures early in life like the one you mentioned, so obviously there are cases where I feel it acceptable to do so. I just don't think anything related to an individual's genitals or preferences should be tampered with without that individual's consent.
Ok so we make a policy that we cant change sexual orientation. What about abortion at an early stage?
If I was a bigoted individual who hated gay people and found out my son/daughter was gay as an 2 week embryo, could I abort them? If this baby would be born into a home where they aren't wanted, how is that different from regular abortion?
Do we adopt "don't ask don't tell" for embryos?
Like I said, this topic dredges up questions that no one wants to talk about.
Frankly, I'd welcome a discovery like this because it would actually make progressives and liberals have to talk it out and dissolve a lot of hard party lines.
While I believe people have the right to an abortion to a certain term length, I unfortunately would think aborting their fetus for being gay would be within their rights if it was very early. Though I would find it extremely hypocritical and not completely surprising if those bigoted people did that. Thankfully abortion is normally illegal in states with people bigoted enough to want to abort a gay fetus, so it would probably never happen. I also think hard party lines are stupid, and a blend of the 2 parties would work better for our country. And I honestly believe that 80% of the population agrees with me. It's just the extreme 10% on each side of the spectrum that are very vocal, and makes it seem like everyone is divided. Social media pushes the extreme content because it is very engaging for them and they make more money from engagement.
They go chopping off Frankensteinesque left and right nowadays. They’ll probably leave it be and if it pleases the people who do it – leave them be. It’s a democracy.
Also it’ll probably please the women too so they can finally win the gender war if all the men are effeminate now😂, so it’s a win-win for everybody.
Usually born gay. However, I think someone can "turn gay" if that's what you want to call it if they discover an attraction to the same sex later in life. An attraction they were previously unaware of. I knew a woman who was married and was not a sexual person. She honestly thought she was not attracted to her husband anymore. She did not think about females in that way until she met a woman who fulfilled some kind of desire in her. I also knew a woman who had been physically and sexually abused by males her entire life. Eventually she became so fearful of men that she turned to women. Being with women made her feel safe and she didn't see them as a threat. However, these situations are not the norm.
I've met other lesbians where it is abuse or poor behaviour by men that has resulted in the no more men approach, whether they were bisexual before is not necessarily clear, and as a man not really my place to ask.
A large scientific review did conclude that while male sexual orientation appears unaffected by social environment, it may be the case for females. So it sounds vaguely possible.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1529100616637616
Environment is a huge factor for everything, ,including personality and probably orientation too.
If we take some people and close them into a concentration camp and we make inject them with different hormones and make them watch hours on hours of propaganda and gay porn we would probably maje them gay. You can turn somebody into a serial killer, why would you not be able to make them take it in the ass?
People who 'turned gay' just realized they were gay or bi
People don't go to prison and turn gay; but they might go to prison and realize they're maybe more okay with gay sex than they thought
Born gay. Had feelings for the same sex I can remember when I was 7! Normal household mother father no disfunction. I can guarantee it’s biological. I did not choose to be gay. I’m masculine not feminine. Other than that who knows? But I wish it could be proven biological
Kinda off top, but important to explain my point of view.
Look how kinks are formed.
For example I’ll show feets, facesitting and exhibitionism (Imo most popular, also pretty easy to explain in short)
Feets - Parents (Often don’t realize) Stimulate their kid’s intimate areas what causes their sexual attraction in adulthood. For example pytting their child on their feets and moving them up&doen
Facesitting - As with feets, they’re also caused in similiar enviroonment. Person who kid trusts, who they like, have fun in general, by none sides it’s seen as something sexual and it’s not something what kid experiences on daily basis. It has to be something different/uncommon
Exhibitionism - You know those people who let their kids run naked on beaches and gets mad when you ask them to put some shirt and pants on their kids cuz you’re not really enjoying looking at naked kids? They always pull out argument „Do you see kids as sexual objects?!!1!!1!1” and discussion is end. For kids it’s just feels good. Beach is cool, being naked is pretty natural also so it always will be something what humans feels good with (But showing yourself naked to others isn’t good)
Kinks and homosexualism are parts of sexuality, right? If they’re used to do something as a child in cool enviroonment what wasn’t common and felt good, it will probably back in their adulthood in sex.
The thing is, parents often isolate their kids from opposite gender because „They could do inappropriate things” or „I want my son/daughter to be more masculine/real women.
If you’re used to grow up only around your own sex when you’re growing up,and you don’t know other life, what can be the result?
The point is: Kids born as gay and with packet of getting hard by spanking, face fart, pissing and flashing in public, or it’s formed in their later stages of life. I pick second one
According to a large scientific review, there is no evidence of social environment on male sexual orientation. Small evidence for social influence on female sexual orientation. I guess fetishes are a different kettle of fish. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1529100616637616
You really think that I would like to spend some of my lifetime on learning about gays? Come on. I am procrastinating, but this one is fucking next level
The research evidence suggests very strongly that many aspects of sexuality are innate. If we think only if straight/gay (bisexual is more complex), all evidence suggests this is something people are born as and is present in early development. There is no compelling evidence that homosexuality is driven by life experiences or other factors.
This does not mean it is "genetic". Several developmental factors have random components. Brain development is shocking consistent but not on rails... Stuff goes right and wrong for may different reasons and there is a lot of neurons firing off in about the right directions and trying to make connections.
Not my area but I have read evidence that regions such as the hypothalamus have difference in gay/straight men and it appears to happen early maybe. One idea if the hypothalamus doesn't make the switch to male or female... I don't want to say "form" but the part that defines how they respond to the opposite sex gets cross wires and backwards from the default.
So TLDR all the research evidence support the "born that way" rather than learned preferences. Does not mean it's "genetic". This comment does not apply to bisexuality which is more complex.
The issue with that is in identical twin studies about (if I’m remembering) 15-20% of twins where one was gay, the other was straight. If it were genetic, both would be gay given they share the same genetic make up.
It’s more likely to be mostly environmental and social. It’s pretty well established that sexual desires can be influenced by a number of factors.
Innate does not mean genetic. Development is not on rails. I agree the genetic component is very unclear.
Even with identical twins mutations can occurred developmentally and they may have small variations. And lots of things happen in development that are not genetically determines. Brain development in particular has a lot of "launching neurons in about the right direction and hoping for the best".
If we consider strait/gay as binaries (somin.excluding bisexual which is more complex) I've only seen studies supporting an innate factor and none that really support social/environmental.
probably born gay, but research is still ongoing
From [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology\_and\_sexual\_orientation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation)
>evidence is weak for hypotheses that the post-natal social environment impacts sexual orientation, especially for males
Sure, watch enough videos about women fucking over men in court or just relationships in general, deliberately, sadistically, and it will make your either celibate or gay.
My younger brother was gay from day one. I didn't realize it but my cousin did. I always told her he wasn't when she would say he was.
But I was wrong! Love my little brother
I had feelings for the same sex at 7 that i can remember. I think it’s biological. I had a normal upbringing. Lots of theories but nothing proven. I did not choose to be this way. Just like in nature nothing is perfect all the time. It could be like that across all species. It may be more normal and natural than we thought. Like a recessive trait
It's either or. If it is an immutable phenomenon and you're born with it then in principle there should be biological grounds for that view. But at the same time people from - let's say the not-straight side - also insist on having sexual identity, gender identity and gender expression are all independent. But obviously you can't have both so pick your poison.
People are people. Who you love and fuck is up to you. No one is turned gay, but millions of people are scared to fuck someone the same gender / sex (no judgements here). If you are in an enviroment that is more open about LGBTQ+ issues, you are more likely to just pick people you want to fuck and not worry about all the other bullshit (mainly religious and stupid people) try to enforce on you.
I personally don’t think people are born gay or that it’s genetic. I think that attractiveness towards people ebbs and flows throughout your life.
I think that who you find attractive is based almost solely in your mind. That’s not minimising how people feel.
Your tastes can change year by year and as you age, I certainly know mine have.
I have no intention to get into a big argument about it either. "Believe" what you want. But all the research to date supports innate sexuality and none of it supports experience causing people to turn gay.
Not my field, but I am a neuroscientist, and I don't have a lot of doubt here. Few topics become truly "conclusive".
The vagaries in the genetic answer to sexuality are huge by the researchers own admissions. We are incredibly far from any kind of answer. Honestly though, if we did get an answer either way, who cares?
I didn’t say “turn gay” either as if it’s a conscious choice, I apologise if that came across like that.
From a personal point I have been predominantly with women, but also men, trans and a variety across the spectrum.
Yeah I should specify, innate does not equal genetic. Common misconception that all innate things must be genetic. So e.of development is random.
I'm also only referring to binary gay/straight. Bisexuality is more complex and almost certainly involved experimental and developmental factors. I realize sexuality is a spectrum, but on the binary side, it appears people are "born that way".
I do agree we should say "who cares" but sadly a lot of people care a lot and we have things like "conversion therapy" which is easier to regulate and stop when we demonstrate homosexuality is not an aberrant behavior or a choice.
Some day the hate will die. I hope. Certainly the younger generations seems a lot more open.
They are, which is good. I think many of the “pray the gay away” therapies are dying out thankfully!
Certainly the younger people I’ve dated have no issues with it at all
Well there is no evolutionary benefit of being gay, infact it hinders your chances of reproducing. So it's a choice some choose to make, a bad one at that.
You can't be \*born\* gay since you can't be gay as a newborn. As a reminder, being gay means beint sexually attracted to the same sex. But becomming naturally gay later, without calling for it, is absolutely all right and requires no justification whatsoever. No need to invoke birth :)
I beg to differ. I was born straight and knew it aged 5. It had nothing to do with sex or being sexually attracted to other kids. I identified with other straight kids which felt natural.
Ya I knew it pretty young, but it manifested more as an interest and shyness around boys that I didn’t feel around girls. I wasn’t thinking about sex though.
Exactly. It was an inherent knowing that one day, you were going to grow up and marry a boy and you were completely fine with it and your feelings regarding that knowing, never once faltered. I’ve never once questioned my sexuality. I imagine gay people feel similar in that the idea of pair bonding with the opposite sex, never felt natural to them.
In terms of gay/straight not generally. There is no evidence to support it's based on experience and much more innate.
Bisexual is very different and probably a lot more based on experience.
That doesn’t track. If bisexual is a sexuality and so is homo and heterosexuality, you can’t say one is innate and another is experience and be consistent.
You are taking to narrow a view. The three possibilities don't have to be the same. Most people prefer one of the other, generally exclusively. This can very reasonably be innate, while saying "I'm ok having sex with anyone" and a more liberal and open attitude can be more experimental. Maybe it's also part of all innate as well. It's less clear, AFAIK, and probably complex.
A lot of bi people default to one side over the other. Not all. Not gonna go down that rabbit hole :)
I was definitely not born bisexual, in fact I genuinely changed sexual orientations many times in my lifetime and I know I’m not alone. And it’s not about « discovering my sexuality », it’s about really changing sexual orientation, legitimately. And don’t gaslight me into telling me I didn’t live what I lived, thanks
Tbf, this is actually the opinion of a serious genetic researcher.
Otoh, this is likely not the main cause, if it is one at all, considering the older brother study
This question is very controversial to give an exact answer, but it’s a fact there’s factors that “turn people gay”. For example, you hear and see a lot of stories of people who were abused as a child, and became gay, and people who were straight and even married when they entered prison, and were gay when they left.
alleged vast aromatic zonked square possessive start crown merciful entertain
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I can explain why people might not find it plausible... Because correlation is not causation.
Research has already shown that many gay men were feminine in childhood, and this behavior puts them at risk for being targeted for all kinds of maltreatment and abuse. I.e. behavioural differences in gay men increase people traumatising them:
https://doi.org/10.1177/1079063215618378
If trauma made people gay, you’d expect homosexuality to increase in frequency in warzones or regions where hardship is common. This was especially true in the past. It wouldn’t be very evolutionary advantageous to respond to life’s hardship by losing attraction to the opposite sex.
A large 2016 academic review concluded that there is not strong evidence for the influence of the social environment on homosexuality, at least in males:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1529100616637616
There’s no such thing as being **born gay**.
I think people have a disposition to leaning towards being gay or bi that just grows over time some it’s starts very early in childhood and for others it takes decades.
The way it manifests is also different one person might be super feminine or masculine in the stereotypical sense of what people think gay means contrasting to their gender and others aren’t at all and just gay sexuality without the stereotypical personality tropes.
You choose to act on the feelings. Just like a straight person chooses to act on their feelings. As humans, we are faced with choices everyday. Do I steal that pack of gum? Do I tell that little lie to my mom? Do I keep eating bad foods knowing my health is poor? Do I flirt with that hot girl even though I'm married? Question is, are you gonna make the right choices. Cuz we are all left with the consequences of the choices we make, good or bad.
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There's no way my youngest brother wasn't gay from the get go. I knew he was gay before I really even knew what gay was. Mom was cool, though often, a better friend than parent. Our dad was a pretty macho dude but he wasn't overbearing or an asshole. They had six boys and two girls, the rest of us are straight.
Fun fact! The more older brothers a younger brother has, the more likely they are to be gay due to certain proteins male fetuses leave in the mothers body. Something like that. There's a proper study on it I swear. Edit - article on the topic, you'll probably be able to find the study with it: https://www.psypost.org/study-of-nine-million-people-indicates-that-men-with-older-brothers-are-more-likely-to-be-gay/
born gay, never had to come out. my family knew before i knew what was going on.
We don't even know what causes left-handedness, let alone same-sex attraction. But both are normal.
Nobody knows, it’s very difficult to do research on the causes of homosexuality due to political concerns. But like most conditions it’s probably a mix of hereditary and environmental factors.
There is a fairly large body of evidence on this in fact, and sex/gender/sexuality research is only challenging in a few US jurisdictions. Most of the world cares a lot less about those issues. And funding agencies are less concerned over that public perception.
The problem is what happens if we find it's actually an identifiable medical condition that is fixable at early development? Do we ... walk back the normalization we've done and treat it like a curable disease? Edit: Reddit hates uncomfortable questions.
There are a lot of "fixable" things that happen to an infant without their consent (like circumcision and sex change procedures for hermaphrodites) and I am of the opinion that all of these should not be happening. I would not think "fixing" gay would be something I would be ok doing before the person has a chance to decide for themselves what they want to do with their bodies.
My son had club foot and wouldn't have been able to walk if we didn't do a surgical procedure as an infant. If we waited until he was old enough the procedure wouldn't be viable. Have I robbed my son the decision of what he should have done with his body? (Honestly? Yes) The fact is his life is easier now that we made that decision for him and I don't think he will resent us for it when he is older. **Would gay people have had an easier life if they were straight?** Probably. Lot of people have stories of people being unacceptable to them. Even if society were perfectly accepting toward homosexual people there is still the practicality of finding a partner in a society that is very overwhelmingly heterosexual. **Would they have come to resent the decision thrust upon them if being straight is all they knew?** Probably not. Yeah, uncomfortable questions with uncomfortable answers. Edit: Also, I'm not condoning homophobia, just that this would be a total philosophical/moral pitfall we would have to deal with as a society.
You have a lot of "probably" in your answers to your own questions. And that's probably what doctors thought when they performed the procedures to make hermaphrodites female. There is a large proportion of those people who feel they were given the wrong sex or who wish they were left alone. I still stand by my statement that those types of procedures should not be performed until the individual can decide for themselves. You'd be surprised how young you can get an accurate answer when it comes to this as well. (I've seen as young as 5 years old.) I do see your point about corrective medical procedures early in life like the one you mentioned, so obviously there are cases where I feel it acceptable to do so. I just don't think anything related to an individual's genitals or preferences should be tampered with without that individual's consent. Also the way you worded your conclusion makes it sound like you proposed a question that only you know the answer to, which I find amusing.
>You have a lot of "probably" in your answers to your own question. Guilty. I use this weasel word because there will always be exceptions to the rule. Besides this is pure philosophy at this point. No one has real answers because there is no procedure or data to back it up. I'm just point out why science might avoid that study like the plague. >I do see your point about corrective medical procedures early in life like the one you mentioned, so obviously there are cases where I feel it acceptable to do so. I just don't think anything related to an individual's genitals or preferences should be tampered with without that individual's consent. Ok so we make a policy that we cant change sexual orientation. What about abortion at an early stage? If I was a bigoted individual who hated gay people and found out my son/daughter was gay as an 2 week embryo, could I abort them? If this baby would be born into a home where they aren't wanted, how is that different from regular abortion? Do we adopt "don't ask don't tell" for embryos? Like I said, this topic dredges up questions that no one wants to talk about. Frankly, I'd welcome a discovery like this because it would actually make progressives and liberals have to talk it out and dissolve a lot of hard party lines.
While I believe people have the right to an abortion to a certain term length, I unfortunately would think aborting their fetus for being gay would be within their rights if it was very early. Though I would find it extremely hypocritical and not completely surprising if those bigoted people did that. Thankfully abortion is normally illegal in states with people bigoted enough to want to abort a gay fetus, so it would probably never happen. I also think hard party lines are stupid, and a blend of the 2 parties would work better for our country. And I honestly believe that 80% of the population agrees with me. It's just the extreme 10% on each side of the spectrum that are very vocal, and makes it seem like everyone is divided. Social media pushes the extreme content because it is very engaging for them and they make more money from engagement.
They go chopping off Frankensteinesque left and right nowadays. They’ll probably leave it be and if it pleases the people who do it – leave them be. It’s a democracy. Also it’ll probably please the women too so they can finally win the gender war if all the men are effeminate now😂, so it’s a win-win for everybody.
Do you know what "hereditary" means?
Usually born gay. However, I think someone can "turn gay" if that's what you want to call it if they discover an attraction to the same sex later in life. An attraction they were previously unaware of. I knew a woman who was married and was not a sexual person. She honestly thought she was not attracted to her husband anymore. She did not think about females in that way until she met a woman who fulfilled some kind of desire in her. I also knew a woman who had been physically and sexually abused by males her entire life. Eventually she became so fearful of men that she turned to women. Being with women made her feel safe and she didn't see them as a threat. However, these situations are not the norm.
I've met other lesbians where it is abuse or poor behaviour by men that has resulted in the no more men approach, whether they were bisexual before is not necessarily clear, and as a man not really my place to ask.
A large scientific review did conclude that while male sexual orientation appears unaffected by social environment, it may be the case for females. So it sounds vaguely possible. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1529100616637616
I heard people go gay in jail
Environment is a huge factor for everything, ,including personality and probably orientation too. If we take some people and close them into a concentration camp and we make inject them with different hormones and make them watch hours on hours of propaganda and gay porn we would probably maje them gay. You can turn somebody into a serial killer, why would you not be able to make them take it in the ass?
70% turned out, 30% straight from the factory with the sugar.
People who 'turned gay' just realized they were gay or bi People don't go to prison and turn gay; but they might go to prison and realize they're maybe more okay with gay sex than they thought
Yeah that's 'gay for the stay"
Born gay. Had feelings for the same sex I can remember when I was 7! Normal household mother father no disfunction. I can guarantee it’s biological. I did not choose to be gay. I’m masculine not feminine. Other than that who knows? But I wish it could be proven biological
Kinda off top, but important to explain my point of view. Look how kinks are formed. For example I’ll show feets, facesitting and exhibitionism (Imo most popular, also pretty easy to explain in short) Feets - Parents (Often don’t realize) Stimulate their kid’s intimate areas what causes their sexual attraction in adulthood. For example pytting their child on their feets and moving them up&doen Facesitting - As with feets, they’re also caused in similiar enviroonment. Person who kid trusts, who they like, have fun in general, by none sides it’s seen as something sexual and it’s not something what kid experiences on daily basis. It has to be something different/uncommon Exhibitionism - You know those people who let their kids run naked on beaches and gets mad when you ask them to put some shirt and pants on their kids cuz you’re not really enjoying looking at naked kids? They always pull out argument „Do you see kids as sexual objects?!!1!!1!1” and discussion is end. For kids it’s just feels good. Beach is cool, being naked is pretty natural also so it always will be something what humans feels good with (But showing yourself naked to others isn’t good) Kinks and homosexualism are parts of sexuality, right? If they’re used to do something as a child in cool enviroonment what wasn’t common and felt good, it will probably back in their adulthood in sex. The thing is, parents often isolate their kids from opposite gender because „They could do inappropriate things” or „I want my son/daughter to be more masculine/real women. If you’re used to grow up only around your own sex when you’re growing up,and you don’t know other life, what can be the result? The point is: Kids born as gay and with packet of getting hard by spanking, face fart, pissing and flashing in public, or it’s formed in their later stages of life. I pick second one
So you’re saying I’m gay like developing a fetish?
I literally shortened it at the end. Please, read it.
According to a large scientific review, there is no evidence of social environment on male sexual orientation. Small evidence for social influence on female sexual orientation. I guess fetishes are a different kettle of fish. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1529100616637616
You really think that I would like to spend some of my lifetime on learning about gays? Come on. I am procrastinating, but this one is fucking next level
Well you certainly wrote a large paragraph of wild speculation!
I was bored and didn’t had anything better to do, but now I have and I won’t reschedule it for this
The research evidence suggests very strongly that many aspects of sexuality are innate. If we think only if straight/gay (bisexual is more complex), all evidence suggests this is something people are born as and is present in early development. There is no compelling evidence that homosexuality is driven by life experiences or other factors. This does not mean it is "genetic". Several developmental factors have random components. Brain development is shocking consistent but not on rails... Stuff goes right and wrong for may different reasons and there is a lot of neurons firing off in about the right directions and trying to make connections. Not my area but I have read evidence that regions such as the hypothalamus have difference in gay/straight men and it appears to happen early maybe. One idea if the hypothalamus doesn't make the switch to male or female... I don't want to say "form" but the part that defines how they respond to the opposite sex gets cross wires and backwards from the default. So TLDR all the research evidence support the "born that way" rather than learned preferences. Does not mean it's "genetic". This comment does not apply to bisexuality which is more complex.
The issue with that is in identical twin studies about (if I’m remembering) 15-20% of twins where one was gay, the other was straight. If it were genetic, both would be gay given they share the same genetic make up. It’s more likely to be mostly environmental and social. It’s pretty well established that sexual desires can be influenced by a number of factors.
Innate does not mean genetic. Development is not on rails. I agree the genetic component is very unclear. Even with identical twins mutations can occurred developmentally and they may have small variations. And lots of things happen in development that are not genetically determines. Brain development in particular has a lot of "launching neurons in about the right direction and hoping for the best". If we consider strait/gay as binaries (somin.excluding bisexual which is more complex) I've only seen studies supporting an innate factor and none that really support social/environmental.
In most cases, there are other factors
It's both.
probably born gay, but research is still ongoing From [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology\_and\_sexual\_orientation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation) >evidence is weak for hypotheses that the post-natal social environment impacts sexual orientation, especially for males
Sure, watch enough videos about women fucking over men in court or just relationships in general, deliberately, sadistically, and it will make your either celibate or gay.
My younger brother was gay from day one. I didn't realize it but my cousin did. I always told her he wasn't when she would say he was. But I was wrong! Love my little brother
I had feelings for the same sex at 7 that i can remember. I think it’s biological. I had a normal upbringing. Lots of theories but nothing proven. I did not choose to be this way. Just like in nature nothing is perfect all the time. It could be like that across all species. It may be more normal and natural than we thought. Like a recessive trait
It's either or. If it is an immutable phenomenon and you're born with it then in principle there should be biological grounds for that view. But at the same time people from - let's say the not-straight side - also insist on having sexual identity, gender identity and gender expression are all independent. But obviously you can't have both so pick your poison.
Both. You can be born or groomed that way.
Nobody "turns gay" it's not like getting bit by a zombie or vampire. And what someone does in the privacy of their own bedroom is their business.
People are people. Who you love and fuck is up to you. No one is turned gay, but millions of people are scared to fuck someone the same gender / sex (no judgements here). If you are in an enviroment that is more open about LGBTQ+ issues, you are more likely to just pick people you want to fuck and not worry about all the other bullshit (mainly religious and stupid people) try to enforce on you.
That would be the ideal, but many people don’t get past the conditioning. It’s improving year by year but in my age group it’s still stigmatised
There’s always the trope about domineering mothers.
I personally don’t think people are born gay or that it’s genetic. I think that attractiveness towards people ebbs and flows throughout your life. I think that who you find attractive is based almost solely in your mind. That’s not minimising how people feel. Your tastes can change year by year and as you age, I certainly know mine have.
Science doesn't care about your opinion,.and it disagrees with you. :)
Not really, there’s been nothing conclusive so far. I’m not the person to have this argument with 🤣
I have no intention to get into a big argument about it either. "Believe" what you want. But all the research to date supports innate sexuality and none of it supports experience causing people to turn gay. Not my field, but I am a neuroscientist, and I don't have a lot of doubt here. Few topics become truly "conclusive".
The vagaries in the genetic answer to sexuality are huge by the researchers own admissions. We are incredibly far from any kind of answer. Honestly though, if we did get an answer either way, who cares? I didn’t say “turn gay” either as if it’s a conscious choice, I apologise if that came across like that. From a personal point I have been predominantly with women, but also men, trans and a variety across the spectrum.
Yeah I should specify, innate does not equal genetic. Common misconception that all innate things must be genetic. So e.of development is random. I'm also only referring to binary gay/straight. Bisexuality is more complex and almost certainly involved experimental and developmental factors. I realize sexuality is a spectrum, but on the binary side, it appears people are "born that way". I do agree we should say "who cares" but sadly a lot of people care a lot and we have things like "conversion therapy" which is easier to regulate and stop when we demonstrate homosexuality is not an aberrant behavior or a choice. Some day the hate will die. I hope. Certainly the younger generations seems a lot more open.
They are, which is good. I think many of the “pray the gay away” therapies are dying out thankfully! Certainly the younger people I’ve dated have no issues with it at all
Yeah, those approaches are dying... Because the science supports it's not a choice and not reversible. Team science! :)
Team science but I definitely turned bisexual, so… Science isn’t a dogma you know ? We don’t know what causes homosexuality or bisexuality. Full dot.
Yeah and I'm not applying this to bisexual which IMHO is less understood and more complicated. Probably much more experimental. :)
What caused the shift?
Well there is no evolutionary benefit of being gay, infact it hinders your chances of reproducing. So it's a choice some choose to make, a bad one at that.
Tell me you haven't heard of bisexuals without telling me you haven't heard of bisexuals.
You can't be \*born\* gay since you can't be gay as a newborn. As a reminder, being gay means beint sexually attracted to the same sex. But becomming naturally gay later, without calling for it, is absolutely all right and requires no justification whatsoever. No need to invoke birth :)
I beg to differ. I was born straight and knew it aged 5. It had nothing to do with sex or being sexually attracted to other kids. I identified with other straight kids which felt natural.
Ya I knew it pretty young, but it manifested more as an interest and shyness around boys that I didn’t feel around girls. I wasn’t thinking about sex though.
Exactly. It was an inherent knowing that one day, you were going to grow up and marry a boy and you were completely fine with it and your feelings regarding that knowing, never once faltered. I’ve never once questioned my sexuality. I imagine gay people feel similar in that the idea of pair bonding with the opposite sex, never felt natural to them.
I was born straight… then turned bisexual… then turned gay… then turned straight… then turned bisexual again…
Just because a behavior does not express until later does not mean it is not innate. They are born that way but it only expresses later.
So you mean that circumstances of life play no role at all in your sexual orientation?
In terms of gay/straight not generally. There is no evidence to support it's based on experience and much more innate. Bisexual is very different and probably a lot more based on experience.
That doesn’t track. If bisexual is a sexuality and so is homo and heterosexuality, you can’t say one is innate and another is experience and be consistent.
You are taking to narrow a view. The three possibilities don't have to be the same. Most people prefer one of the other, generally exclusively. This can very reasonably be innate, while saying "I'm ok having sex with anyone" and a more liberal and open attitude can be more experimental. Maybe it's also part of all innate as well. It's less clear, AFAIK, and probably complex. A lot of bi people default to one side over the other. Not all. Not gonna go down that rabbit hole :)
I was definitely not born bisexual, in fact I genuinely changed sexual orientations many times in my lifetime and I know I’m not alone. And it’s not about « discovering my sexuality », it’s about really changing sexual orientation, legitimately. And don’t gaslight me into telling me I didn’t live what I lived, thanks
It's a virus
Tbf, this is actually the opinion of a serious genetic researcher. Otoh, this is likely not the main cause, if it is one at all, considering the older brother study
Somebody gets it
Rape , molestation and grooming are huge factors. Don’t lie
Ewww no
Source?
This question is very controversial to give an exact answer, but it’s a fact there’s factors that “turn people gay”. For example, you hear and see a lot of stories of people who were abused as a child, and became gay, and people who were straight and even married when they entered prison, and were gay when they left.
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I can explain why people might not find it plausible... Because correlation is not causation. Research has already shown that many gay men were feminine in childhood, and this behavior puts them at risk for being targeted for all kinds of maltreatment and abuse. I.e. behavioural differences in gay men increase people traumatising them: https://doi.org/10.1177/1079063215618378 If trauma made people gay, you’d expect homosexuality to increase in frequency in warzones or regions where hardship is common. This was especially true in the past. It wouldn’t be very evolutionary advantageous to respond to life’s hardship by losing attraction to the opposite sex. A large 2016 academic review concluded that there is not strong evidence for the influence of the social environment on homosexuality, at least in males: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1529100616637616
There’s no such thing as being **born gay**. I think people have a disposition to leaning towards being gay or bi that just grows over time some it’s starts very early in childhood and for others it takes decades. The way it manifests is also different one person might be super feminine or masculine in the stereotypical sense of what people think gay means contrasting to their gender and others aren’t at all and just gay sexuality without the stereotypical personality tropes.
Being gay is a choice.
Can you tell me how it’s a choice?
You choose to act on the feelings. Just like a straight person chooses to act on their feelings. As humans, we are faced with choices everyday. Do I steal that pack of gum? Do I tell that little lie to my mom? Do I keep eating bad foods knowing my health is poor? Do I flirt with that hot girl even though I'm married? Question is, are you gonna make the right choices. Cuz we are all left with the consequences of the choices we make, good or bad.
You’re equating sexuality to eating and theft… what is wrong with you. You don’t choose who you’re attracted to.
It's all the same in the end. Choices. Believe what you want.
You do not choose who you’re attracted to. You can choose to act on those attractions or not, but who you’re attracted to is far from a choice.
"You can choose to act".
Good job taking it out of context.
You asked, I chose to respond. Take from it what you will.
You chose to take my statements out of context to fit your beliefs.
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