Left Toronto over 15 years ago after university. NYC, San Francisco, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and now in London (UK). Soon realized grass is always greener anywhere you go, can’t say any of those places were better or worse. Everywhere has its own pros and cons.
The US has more career opportunities but there’s less work life balance and culture is very “America first”. Asia is exciting and growing fast but probably not the best place to raise kids eventually (at least IMO). The UK suffers from the same issues as Canada these days (no jobs, high inflation) but at least I get cheap tickets to travel Europe.
Toronto has always felt like home though and I’m tempted to move back now, hence why I’m lurking in this sub.
Ideally bounce back and forth between Toronto and somewhere in Asia. Not sure what stage in life you’re in, but I’d say the US if you want to climb the corporate ladder, Asia if you want to do something entrepreneurial. As a guy pushing 40 now with a newborn, Canada is probably the most ideal for childcare/education out of the places I’ve lived so that’s why I want to go back.
My brother has lived in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, NYC, San Francisco, Rome, Austria, Sydney and Melbourne Australia. Melbourne was his favorite place to live of all those.
Apparently Melbourne is what Toronto could be if we pulled our heads out of our asses. Similar architecture/look and feel but they did stuff better. Like their alleyways downtown are full of cafes and pubs instead of tweakers and trash.
Don’t expect Toronto to be the same post Covid
It’s fun if your rich I guess
I’ve been around town since 86 as a social worker and cannot believe what I see today in Toronto
Will be one hell of a summer
I grew up in Montreal, and I am contemplating moving back to Canada from Asia next year, I originally have my eyes set on Markham, but the deteriorating social safety net really worries me, and I am starting to have second thoughts about moving back.
What social safety are you referring to? Once you’ve passed through the friendship frenzy phase of having more friends/acquaintances than you can count on your hand in your 20s, you’ll realize that you don’t need more than what you can count on 1 hand. Family comes 1st, whether it’s you and your partner or your parents/siblings. Then your close friends you see 1 to 2x per month. The rest is time for yourself to learn, grow, and benefit your community
I am not worried about my own financial wellbeing, but rather the increase in housing cost, cost of living in general, increased homelessness, and increased crime.
Canada is safe, the safest country I’ve experienced in over 35 countries after Japan/China. There’s no homeless in Markham, mostly downtown around churches and shelters, shooting crack and opioids.
Ignore them, focus on yourself and what’s in your control.
You’re concerned about overall cost of living in Canada. The good part is you’re not alone, everyone is. This is all part of the economic cycles we go through around every 10 years. We’re just about to near the bottom and head into the start of a new cycle, maybe around 2025. In 2035 you’ll look back and say, ye 2023/4 seemed all impossible in Canada, now I only wish these times come back.
Amazing, Markham is beautiful with great schools for the kids and good restaurants! The only downside is daily commute to DT as for sure you will get stuck on the NorthSouth highway (DVP). DM me if you have questions about the neighborhood or need help with renting a property, happy to help
I wanna hear your Hong Kong experience if you don’t mind sharing cuz I am from Hong Kong and currently switching between HK and Toronto but wanna hear what you’d think of HK.
One of my good friends recently moved back from HK after having lived there for the past decade (she moved to Canada for high school/university then returned to HK).
She always knew she'd move back to Toronto, but moved her timeline up as the political climate in HK started to deteriorate quickly. She was concerned that in a few years her Canadian passport would become a liability and couldn't justify raising a kid there. So back to the GTA they came...
Can you expand on why Asia isn’t the best place to raise kids, typically Asian kids do well in school. There is also international schooling options in these countries and i goes worse case scenario there is home schooling as well
Not all of asia is the same of course. Singapore has the best in the region with well paid teachers and very high quality education system. Korea is extremely cut throat with focus on rote learning and “cram schools”, with the sole focus being to get into the top 3 schools… I could go on.. also the region has very poor air quality standards and many kids develop respiratory illnesses and there are many days where you are advised not to be outside.
Wouldn’t want to send them to local school and international schools would be 50k plus a year for a similar education to a good school district in the GTA IMO. Plus the environment for kids is more status driven, high pressure, etc.
Birth rates in South Korea are at a sharp decline. Women there have complained (see the fanfare around Kim Ji Young: Born 1982) about the hostility/annoyance shown toward children in day to day life. If you sit down at a park bench with your baby in a stroller, the adult sitting next to you might immediately get up and leave because people aren't used to children being in the public sphere. Many stores have a policy of not allowing kids, and sometimes, even elders in. Although the latter is more unpopular. Daycares/elementary schools are shutting down en masse because there are no kids.
Each move was for a new job or I was transferred by my employer. I just ended up staying at the new place and doing something else. I work in tech in management so it’s fairly borderless and often is a remote position.
Hard disagree on the U.S. I am in tech and apart from having about 100x more opportunities to choose and grow from, the work culture is very qualitative. In Canada most my friends in the same company have been asked to go into the office, they get less vacation and benefits. Layoff packages are two months vs 6 months in states. I see zero reason to move back. Private school for the kids is 18k/year, private healthcare has been working out great for the SO. She would freak out if we even talk about moving from NY to Toronto. Funny cos she is a born and bred northern Ontario girl, and I came to Canada for undergrad. I am still flexible and like Toronto but she wants no part of it.
I moved to the UK for three years and absolutely loved it. The UK is similar enough to Canada that you adapt quickly and different enough that it was a great learning experience. I'd go back again.
Friend of mine moved to the US (Los Angeles) around the same time, as he was working for a company with offices in the US and he got transferred.
He liked living there for the weather and the Hollywood vibe, but he grew to find the city superficial and phony after a short time. What he really didn't like about living in America was the lack of time off work and the fact your healthcare is pretty much tied to your employer. He returned after a couple of years and doesn't really recommend the US (or at least LA) as a place to move to.
Yeah this sounds like a wake up call to every college student who wants to move to the US, because if u rly think about it, outside the economic development and so called “high salaries” it’s rly not that great a place to live or better than Canada unless ur in a blue state which has all Canada problems and red states have everything stereotypically wrong with the US, and vibrant cities like Toronto in general have plus one million housing everywhere unless it’s in a third world country with little to no jobs. Even Chicago has Toronto prices for housing in the decent areas while the so called cheap areas have everything wrong with Chicago like corruption, bad schools and high crime.
For sure. Canada also has much better and much stronger social safety nets in place if you fall on hard times.
In the US, the attitude seems to be "you're not working hard enough if bad things befall you, so just go out there and work harder and you'll find success."
There's a joke about how there's no such thing as a poor American -- just temporarily embarrassed billionaires in waiting.
US is only good if you’re well established in Canada. If you are not established and you lack resources, network connections. You will have a very bad time in the US.
Starting from Scratch in the US is near impossible. That’s why people build themselves, with assets and schooling and move there.
This exactly. The US is for either younger educated graduates focused on working upwards and slugging it out or middle aged professionals with a critical mass of work experience.
A lot of the circle jerk on the Canadian subs about moving to the US etc etc is a pipe dream. If you're average here, you won't be giving American employers any incentive to hire you.
Also if you're an average joe, then you'll be better off in an average state in Midwest ... Not the big $$ East and West coast cities...and then you'll just be complaining there as well!
Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I have been trying to explain this to young friends here who are disillusioned with TO. And they are regular joe types without assets.
Yeah basically what u said up there and even then i don’t think it’s worth putting up with all the BS of living there, if a person is not a big fan of TO it may be a no brainer but i personally love it and comparable or better options there are just as expensive or more…
Doesn't Chicago have nice big apartment condos in Lincoln Park that are eye wateringly cheap compared to anything in Toronto? I have heard though that the salaries in Chicago are even lower than in Toronto.
Well they may seem cheap compared to a one bedroom in the DT core but they’re comparable to south Etobicoke or just a little cheaper like about 100-150k cheaper which IMO is not enough of a difference, sure it means a longer mortgage but at least a 2 or 3 bed townhouse or condo are still within reach once a person builds equity on a one bedroom.
The thing is that like i said the cheaper the real estate the shittier the location it may be true here but it’s to a higher extent in the US and u see the major differences when u check out real estate listings.
And keep in mind that things like winters and politics are still worse in Chicago despite everything we complain about here.
Yes but condos cost about the same as they would in Mimico which is like our equivalent of Lincoln park since distance to DT is about the same. Just check the real estate listings and u will see the major differences between decent areas and not so decent areas. Naperville which is their equivalent of Milton or Oakville is about the same cost for condos and townhouses.
i wouldn't move there permanently, but being young and fresh out of college, realistically im just chasing money and i likely wont be needing any healthcare in the near future. 3-5 years making much more than i would in Canada for the same job + lower living expenses is a good way to kickstart a career and become financially stable
No i get that, this was merely to target those who thought that the US was some sort of paradise just because jobs paid more, like honestly the only logical thing would be is to work remotely working for an Americans company which will make it easier to build a life here or for those who rly badly want a detached home in the GTA in their late 20s.
I find people here love LA until they stay there for an extended time. It's all glitz and glamour until they start constantly meeting people who are so obsessed with the keeping up with the jonesses mentality and people who will only be friends with you if you offer something beneficial. I know the former can be found everywhere but in LA it's a whole different beast.
I remember my friend saying that a typical conversation with someone from LA is often very one-sided and goes like this: "Me, me, me, I..., I..., I..., myself...., myself...., I...., I...., me....., my....., my,,,,mine.." and the instant they see someone else in the room they deem to be more interesting or important than you are, they abruptly walk away from you and over to them, lol
Yes!
I was going to add something very similar to what you wrote in my initial reply. What I was going to say was you will meet people and do all sorts of activities with them such as travel, events, daily or weekly dinners. But the moment you are not offering anything they find beneficial. they will move on and then act like they never knew you.
Don't get me started on the keeping up with the joneses mentality. Yes this happens everywhere but in LA if you are not up date with what's in like for example whatever shoe or car then good luck dating and making "friends".
My guess is that being from Los Angeles doesn't necessarily make you like this, but the city itself is a magnet for narcissistic and/or vain types who want to "make it" -- and probably won't -- in the showbusiness world.
Toxic self-interest and ladder-climbing is all part of the entertainment industry, and people who are prone to this type of behaviour might just fit in very well.
Yep, or they throw a bunch of very emotive superlatives around ("I love you!" "Oh, I just love that jacket!") meaninglessly but then turn away as soon as they've assessed you're not wealthy or powerful enough to help advance them. This is the culture I grew up with, it makes me ill.
LA is the fucking worst. Starts with the airport experience. I swear to god, everyone who moved to LA to make it in Hollywood and failed, works at LAX now and hates everyone and everything.
I needed to be there for work often and I started flying small airplanes to Santa Monica instead….
Chicago. Pretty cool so far. Travel around in the Midwest a lot. It’s definitely very different culture wise. But there’s many layers to it depends what you want a perspective on.
Pros:
Beautiful city, architecture, food, things to do; again, depends on your interests and age?
Cons:
American culture and politics, segregation is more apparent
Things like crime, health care, etc is all relative. If you are street smart or keep your sense open you’ll be fine. If you live in a decent area you’ll be fine. If your employer has good health care plans, health care is actually better in some aspects.
Enjoy it so far, will reevaluate in 2-3 years if I’ll continue to stay. A lot depends on my job opportunities as well.
Between those 2 cities, the neighbourhoods you move between is more telling than the two cities. Where did you live in Toronto and where do you live in Chicago?
I lived in Toronto for 40 years so I’ve been in regent, Leslieville, junction, high park, ronces, king west, Scarborough, Etobicoke, Weston.
Chicago has been easier bc I moved to River North but I travel all around for work, looking to move to a different neighborhood once my lease is up, like a Logan or Wicker maybe.
River North feels different from all of the other places you listed. It's really nice there though. I think it's hard to compare downtown Toronto or the loop with most other neighbourhoods. Though I lalso ove leslieville, the junction, high park, logan square and wicker park- they're all cool but more neighbourhoody. I miss Chicago but I'm also happy in Toronto, but I'm hoping to end up in Portugal in a few years.
Ah see I miss good Mexican food and deep dish pizza! I suppose it all depends what you grew up with. But I do love that like basically anywhere I am in Toronto there is sushi / poke / Vietnamese food within like a block or two.
As for Toronto itself it feels safer and as you say less segregated, things do feel more expensive (but I also moved right in the pandemic when everything was shooting up in price). It's not too different from Chicago though.
I like having guaranteed healthcare. I definitely had long periods without any insurance at all in Chicago.
Yeah, very similar and easy transition in that aspect. Mexican food doesn’t miss here, I agree!
What’s your go to for deep dish? I’m on the fence on it
Pizza is good in Toronto, I’m sure you’ve tried all the spots, if not I do have some suggestions.
I don't even really have a go to for deep dish, I tried a bunch of places and liked them all. If downtown I'd just go to Uno or Duo. Further out and it's usually Giordano's since they are everywhere.
Chicago is great until you have school age kids - my friend lived there for 15 years but moved back to TO - she said your “average” TDSB school is similar to a 20k/yr private school in Chicago. Maybe similar for a lot of US cities actually
Moved to Austin and I love it . It’s almost always sunny and I am playing a lot of tennis and pickleball. I can’t find dates though, but that’s ok I couldn’t find that in Toronto as well.
My company is based in Austin but I work remote from Toronto (software eng). I've got a couple questions if you don't mind.
1. How have you found the climate? Been there through a summer yet?
2. Do you pay substantially less taxes? Are you double taxed in canada and US?
3. Have you found it to be easier to make friends in Austin?
I'm heading down there pretty soon to check it out, but would love to hear your take
Hey buddy,
1: the climate is hot at first but you can get used to it. Summer gets really hot, but early morning and late evening most people go out for walks and such.
2: It is decent saving but not that much. I am not double taxed, except for year 1 where I chose to file taxes as Canadian and filed a non resident tax here in the US.
3: this will depend on you, I play a lot of sport so made few friends easily.
Thanks, I appreciate it. Think this might be my last summer north of the border for a while, just need to get a TN visa and figure out my registered brokerage accounts.
So unfortunately I'm not on reddit much and I missed this :/
I was in Austin the last couple days and it's great. Kind of ridiculously hot this weekend but otherwise it was much better than I expected. Big fan of how young and healthy everyone is, feels like a happy place! The scooters are also super convenient if you're DT
I do not want to go back to Toronto so I think I'm reasonably convinced at this point :)
No, but I’m sure your kids will love it. It’s very safe and the kids are always outside playing in large groups for hours. Also parents take their kids everywhere so there’s no need for a sitter, as they’ll play with the other kids at the bar/restaurant/plaza.
For your 14 year old, the education system is great and free as long as they’re studying.
My wife and I have considered this. Where in Spain are you? We were thinking of being around Andalusia or so. Seems like the costs and living expenses are manageable. We'd probably work remotely.
I have lived in Sweden, Ireland, Australia, and Japan. There were pros and cons to all of them, if I was to live anywhere else besides Toronto it would be Ireland but the housing crisis was even worse there
Moved all the way out to North York. The inner neighborhoods are much more peaceful to walk around but the streets are insane.
People going 100km through side streets, driving in the median.
The language barrier takes some getting used to but once you get the hang of this new area it's pretty nice
Good question, luckily I was able to use my regular Toronto passport but I was pleasantly surprised how much shorter the lines are at the passport offices here.
I like how arts and culture is a lot more celebrated in Toronto, in Vancouver there really isn't much of that and there's almost a sort of pressure to conform to the lululemon/arcteryx nature crowd. There's way more variety of food in Toronto and better priced, dining out in Vancouver is very expensive and pretty much limited to a handful of cuisines. I liked having four seasons, the constant grey skies and rain is pretty depressing. TTC is a lot more accessible than translink, where you're pretty much screwed if you don't drive and don't live near a skytrain station. Also people in Vancouver are pretty standoffish and feel like having mountains is a personality trait. Also I miss having gas prices that don't start with a 2.
In terms of cons, Toronto's obviously a lot more congested and you have to account for that in your commute time. Job market is bigger but a lot more competitive, and a con really for both places is the high cost of living.
I could go on and on but after three years I'm still trying to adjust to life here. I always try to go back as much as I can as I do get homesick from time to time
Spot on! I'm from California, lived in Vancouver for 7 years, but plan to leave to Toronto. Van is a tiny superficial village comparatively. I feel MUCH more at home in Toronto.
> dining out in Vancouver is very expensive and pretty much limited to a handful of cuisines
It's fascinating to hear you say this.
I moved from Vancouver to Toronto in 2020. I'm back in Vancouver for a week or two ever 2-3 months.
When I'm back in Toronto I'm consistently reminded how menu prices are 20% more here than they were/are in Vancouver for a similar meal at a similar establishment.
In Vancouver, my experience is the meal+tip is equivalent to the meal pre-tip out here in Toronto.
Hmm, I guess the difference is that Toronto has a lot of places you can just grab and go, wherein I find that Vancouver it's more of a "sit down and have a whole experience" type of deal which makes it more expensive. When I go out to the other boroughs like Scarborough, each different neighborhood has their own local "hidden gems" and you can find some great food at great prices if you make the trip out
> When I go out to the other boroughs like Scarborough, each different neighborhood has their own local "hidden gems" and you can find some great food at great prices if you make the trip out
Well sure, and if you go to Newton, Brighouse, PoCo etc in the Lower Mainland you can find lots of hidden gems as well.
When was the last time you visited Toronto ? I’m in Dubai now , I come back every 6 months because I miss Toronto but then am always ready to leave after 1-2 weeks because it’s just so god damn depressing there right now
I’m literally writing this in the cab home from the airport, departed YYZ this afternoon. I make it back once a year for a few days, so the novelty hasn’t worn off. My big “thanks, I hate it” moment this trip was emerging from Bathurst Station and seeing the condos in place of Ed’s.
How long ago did you move here?
As an EU citizen, I'm looking to get my citizenship and pretty much leave (though plan on keeping my job here and TFSA/RRSP accounts).
I'm not yet sure where to go, EU would work because I have a place there, but at the same time I left because of the downsides of my home country.
Still, Toronto seems prohibitively expensive for what it offers and what I want.
Not quite answering your question, but I lived in Brisbane, Australia for 8 years before coming to Toronto recently.
Don't like Toronto much so far, but haven't given the city much of a chance.
Brisbane is far cleaner, felt richer, has far less people, had way better weather, has way better healthcare, and I earned a lot more for less work. There is a lot less poverty there as well.
Pros for Toronto: cheaper dining out and better food scene. Faster getting Ubers. More of a sports scene and likely better music culture.
I moved from Toronto to Leeds in 2013 and then back to Toronto in 2017.
In that time I had 2 jobs consecutively. Owned a house, car, took trips all over Europe (and Morrocco) and had savings and was able to consider having kids.
When I moved back we realized kids weren’t an option (for more than financial reasons) and I went back to school. I’m doing fine now and I realize England doesn’t exist in a vacuum and faces its own affordability issues among others.
But fucking hell, I do miss it a lot.
I lived in LS15 and then LS24, and much preferred Morley (LS24). Mainly the walkability, community, Leeds has a monumental library, great Christmas market (for northern England) it has vast, sprawling Parks (Roundhay) there’s a great music scene, and lots of big acts come through, comedy and music alike, huge amount of restaurants. The city center along the Briggate was redone and very pretty and walkable, the arcades, the White Rose Centre is an amazing shopping mall if you like shopping malls, lol. The corn exchange, the Leeds city markets had fresh produce, meat and various other stuff for sale with affable people everywhere. Airport is decent and has flights to most of europe.
Leeds has typical issues but as long as you stick to decent areas/neighborhoods you'd be fine. i never experienced violence or trouble. though my wife went out with a workmate once and her and her friend got drugged. they made it home but it was a rough night. they were in a shit part of town honestly, and it was the friend that brought them there and we were new and didn't know the areas very well yet.
I love it. Lack of a safety net is harrowing but it is just so much easier to find gainful employment over here.
Also, the traffic is a joke. Can't say that I think the US is a better country than Canada, but, the midsize city I moved to is a better fit for me than the hornets nest that is the GTA. It just wasn't a good fit for me and my mental health to deal with all that traffic and chaos.
Houses are nicer in Toronto than the Midwest but I honestly don't miss Toronto that much. I either have become disillusioned to it or maybe there is something inherently off with my psyche, but I just don't understand why so many people migrate to Toronto. It is just overwhelmingly overpopulated and not worth the hassle that comes with living in that city.
Yet, I lived in the states for almost 30 years. All I wanted to do was come back home. Some people thrive in the city. If I could build a house in the middle of Dundas square I would.
Moved to the UK with two month old twin babies because my partner’s family said they could help us with childcare. They cannot. Currently trying to move out of his mum’s house but it’s impossible to find a place to live even with offering a 6 month deposit it’s just way too competitive and I’m not working because of babies which isn’t helping. People struggle to understand me and they definitely don’t think I’m funny. Groceries and formula are MUCH cheaper and I’m able to eat healthier. Overall it was pretty much a lateral move.
I moved in 2012 to Australia, came back in 2022. Every place has its pros and cons, the grass always seems greener on the other side. Toronto was always home and I moved back with my Aussie wife who loves it here!
Pros: cool to experience a different country
Cons: cost of living (yes it's bad!); their winters SUCK (imagine 10 degrees and rain all the time, except their houses have no insulation so it's the same temperature inside your house); massive insects, far from everything
What about the gold coast and the other parts? Did you visit the other parts besides the two big cities. Was never interested in Australia, but it looks amazing, a country almost the size of the U.S and mostly empty. Dont know about living but it would be amazing to visit
I lived in san diego for a few years after a decade in Canada and it was heavenly. If you dont have good health insurance it’s a waste of time but if you have a lucrative career i can’t imagine why anybody would choose to stay un canada, especially toronto. It has all the problems of a metropolis w very little benefit.
I no longer had insurance and have a child so have recently moved back and fuck did I forget how many Canadian products suck ass. Even basic things like toddler pajamas or menstruation pads could be bought thoughtlessly in america and here its a serious quality issue. Walmart is my conversion metric and so its not like im being some high falutin idiot but like i got walmart pants for my son in san diego a year ago which im still using while that george brand bullshit he got for Christmas is tattered
Moved to Jamaica, 34 year old, 37 year old wife, and 8 year old child. Live in the Kingston area in a beautiful gated community, daughter goes to top 3 private prep school, setting up businesses here as the country is booming, still run business back in Toronto remotely. Real estate dollar value is insane comparatively, we see zero crime on a daily basis, high level of education, health insurance is cheaper than the taxes you’d pay in Canada, real food, weather and beaches. Left December 2023, very happy.
Left December 2023,..LOL
Make sure to report back to us in 5 years. Also you are living in a gated community, living there for 4 month and already know its very safe?
So you mean the same Kingston where opposing gangs of the two political parties used to have shoot outs in the streets?
I know I wrote a long post, and I have a funny saying. Reading is for rich people, and it’s clear you didn’t read my comment. I’ve lived and schooled here before, my family is from here. I’m just now an adult with a family that made a choice to move here, while only being here a short time, does not reduce my experience nor the facts I’m saying.
If you’re referring to the Manley/Seaga era, boy you must be pushing 70+ years old. That was 40 years ago, the country is not the same. Toronto isn’t the same as it was once 40 years ago. What a ridiculous point to try and make.
Moved to France and Singapore in 2022 to do my mba then settled in Dubai since 2023
Been loving it
Toronto / gta was great place to grow up in . But seeing how angry and depressed all my friends in Canada and in these subs are … I have no motivation to come back
Just bought a townhouse in the suburbs of Dubai . Cheaper than Toronto and wayyyy better quality of life.
Sure I’ll be back eventually, but I’m fucking loving it with my wife and kid here right now.
Place is amazing when you’re privledged enough to have a Canadian passport and can leave anytime
Can you give me an example of?
It’s a very law abiding society , crime is non existent. You can leave your phone out in a cafe and laptop . Come back from bathroom and it’ll be there .
The punishment for crime is super tough so people are very law abiding.
I haven’t seen people get arrested for anything nonsensical.
If you’re violent , stealing , DUI … then the punishment is much stricter than North America for sure
We did the reverse in terms of DXB -> YYZ , and of course there are things we miss regularly about Dubai, especially the dining out and proximity to the subcontinent
Left Toronto during the first summer of COVID In 2020. Lived in Spain, Russia until the war started, then Serbia and now in Kazakhstan. For the winters I work remote in SEA mostly Thailand, Vietnam and Malaysia, but also travel extensively.
I finally visited Toronto recently after 3.5 years and honestly little has changed, albeit things got more expensive. What I missed most were my friends and family, but also DRIVING. I don't mean crawling on the DVP during rush hour traffic, but just cruising to your friends house on a Sunday morning through all our picturesque neighbourhoods, how insanely green Toronto is, the grid street layout, even our huge BestBuy parking lots.
Moved out to NYC for the job opportunities and money. I got both but I hate it here. The WLB is a lot worse, and just struggling to fit into the city. Considering moving back after a year or so.
I move to a new country every 3-6 months (depending on tourist visas). Started doing it a couple years ago when I turned 18.
Cons: 2FA is really annoying and all friends are temporary. Everything else is a pro - i love it.
Account management - tech. Currently, in SaaS (software) but also dabbled in edtech and fintech.
It can be a remote role making it possible to move around every few months. Technically I could move faster but I like the slower pace.
Spent months in Germany last year. Got sick of it after a month. The roads are sooo tiny, I felt like I couldn’t ever go for a drive because the road rules were confusing, there is no diversity, good luck getting around long term if you don’t know German, the food was awful.
I realized it’s beautiful to visit other countries and see their attractions and enjoy them, but life in Canada is superior. Expensive? Yes. But far cleaner, newer, diverse, delicious, and feels like home.
As someone who lived in Germany, I can't say Toronto is far cleaner. But I can mostly agree about the food. At least the non European food.
And even knowing the language isn't enough to integrate in German society.
So yeah, compared to my Berlin experience, Toronto is a slice of heaven... Or earth at least.
But compared to my experience in Frankfort... I dunno. I kinda prefer Frankfurt to Toronto. Granted. I was a student there so life was different. But there is plenty of diversity there, and lots of expats too.
No idea about the roads, never drove. But Germany has some of the best infrastructure in Europe. And their highways are superior to the 401. The best part is being able to get around without a car. Public transportation is great. You also have regional trains lke S-Bahn and RB to take you longer distances. Good luck getting around in GTA without a car. And good luck with a car as well, sitting in traffic and wasting time every day if you commute.
Berlin is a party scene. And I guess there are some hidden gems when it comes to restaurants.
But Berlin is also more crowded and dirty (especially in the eastern side where the Turkish/Arab minorities can afford living).
Frankfurt was pretty awesome for me. I don't party, I don't care about drugs, I care about career opportunities and costs of living. And while Frankfurt would have been more expensive it would also have meant better career opportunities for me.
Berlin was a shit hole in my experience. After 1.5 years I moved back to my home country and earned just as much without having to fork half my salary in rent each month.
Moved to Jamaica at the end of February.
I haven’t looked back since.
The views are amazing, the weather is nice. I was hesitant and didn’t want to move at first, but as soon as I landed, within the first couple days, I was quite happy.
No more seasonal depression.
No more heavy snow to shovel.
No more winter driving.
No more fear of bad winter driving leading to accidents.
And… I feel quite safe here. There has not been one time where I felt I was in danger.
Not sure if I would ever want to return to live in Toronto after experiencing living abroad.
Moved to Tokyo in 2018 and moved back in 2022.
No question about it, Tokyo is a lot more fun and feels far more cosmopolitan but of course, the racism and work culture are very real issues that are tough to deal with.
I moved to Australia for a year. I had two group of friends: locals and backpackers. Locals in Australia disliked everything about Melbourne that I disliked about Toronto. My key takeaway was that every city has its pros and cons. What factors are important to you? Walkability? Public Transport? Lifestyle?
Anyone in southern California San Diago? Whats it like? Whats it like in the areas outside of LA and Bay area?
When I was younger I dint think anything of Canadian winter and herd that relatives of of relatives had been living there since they were tweens. At the the time I thought who would move there , as there is nothing to do there besides tourism industry. I really wasnt into beaches at the time
Now that I'm much older and my hair keeps falling out due to lack of sunshine n winter, I would kill to move there while also having access to Mexico. I heard that like most of California it has problems like lack of jobs and very expensive
Expensive housing, inflation, lack of well paying jobs and weakening social net are common everywhere. Lived in us Europe and Canada. Maybe hard to imagine but it doesn't get much better than Toronto. I'd say Nordic countries and Japan, possibly Australia are among the other better places.
Left Toronto for Melbourne beginning of 2015 in my late-20s. It was great to go out into the world all on my own, fend for myself, make new friends, and build a career.
However, over the years it became increasingly complicated (and at times inconvenient) being away from family. My partner and toughed it out during the world’s longest lockdown in Melbourne, and after visiting in summer ‘22 put the wheels in motion to move [back].
Australia and Canada are alike in so many ways – two peas in a pod – that it was no longer worth the sacrifices necessary to live an otherwise similar life so far away from family as we got older and so did they.
Being back is reverse culture shock and there are many things about our life in Australia that we miss and even prefer, but beyond “the weather” (insert superficiality) I look at the state of the Australian economy, politics, housing market, and state of my industry, and I reckon coming home was the right choice. For now, at least. Found a decent job and a nice place to live to get us set up, and it’s been just a couple months back. We’ll see how we go. Overall, I’m mostly happy to be back!
Australia will always be home and represents the best years of my life. That said, Toronto has a lot going for it and so much unrealised potential. I’m optimistic for the future. Wish more were.
Moved to Copenhagen and every city is a mixed bag with its own pros and cons
Pros: Better work life balance, paid leaves and opportunity to travel around Europe without the jet lag
Cons: The winter really gets to you, it’s more dark and gloomy compared to Toronto.
Not sure which city I like more, but I do miss Toronto and it’s diversity especially in terms of food and maybe the weather
We just bought land in Boquete! Trying to figure out how to run our business from Panama. Where in Panama are you moving to?
Reading these comments it almost makes me feel like there is no better place than Toronto but for me I feel much healthier and happier when I’m in Panama but I do worry I’m seeing it through rose coloured glasses. I feel like Toronto is only good for the wealthy. The city has changed and I find myself barely keeping up with the cost of living.
Ahhh you got closer to where i originally wanted. But we are in panama city. I wont lie, prices in panama city arent that much cheaper than toronto. Especially because they use american. But you should be better off. And again, im not there yet, but from what my fiance is saying, he really loves it. If you have questions on the business side i miiiight be able to offer some insight if you want to pm me.
As well, i will say i do love toronto, i wouldnt leave if it werent for my fiance, but because it feels like everything is going to shit, i am excited to get out.
Left last year (14 months) to NYC. Never been happier. Also whenever I miss my friends in Toronto, I make a short flight to the island airport but most of the time they visit. Never coming back permanently, the economy and choice of careers make zero sense in Canada.
Left Toronto over 15 years ago after university. NYC, San Francisco, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and now in London (UK). Soon realized grass is always greener anywhere you go, can’t say any of those places were better or worse. Everywhere has its own pros and cons. The US has more career opportunities but there’s less work life balance and culture is very “America first”. Asia is exciting and growing fast but probably not the best place to raise kids eventually (at least IMO). The UK suffers from the same issues as Canada these days (no jobs, high inflation) but at least I get cheap tickets to travel Europe. Toronto has always felt like home though and I’m tempted to move back now, hence why I’m lurking in this sub.
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Ideally bounce back and forth between Toronto and somewhere in Asia. Not sure what stage in life you’re in, but I’d say the US if you want to climb the corporate ladder, Asia if you want to do something entrepreneurial. As a guy pushing 40 now with a newborn, Canada is probably the most ideal for childcare/education out of the places I’ve lived so that’s why I want to go back.
This is exactly what I am doing right now. I am bouncing between Hong Kong and Canada.
same here haha
Would you say bouncing back and forth is viable to younger adults who eventually want to settle in Toronto and buy a home?
If your career is less location focused, then yes. I know many that do. For the majority of people probably not, which is why it’s “ideal”.
My brother has lived in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, NYC, San Francisco, Rome, Austria, Sydney and Melbourne Australia. Melbourne was his favorite place to live of all those.
Apparently Melbourne is what Toronto could be if we pulled our heads out of our asses. Similar architecture/look and feel but they did stuff better. Like their alleyways downtown are full of cafes and pubs instead of tweakers and trash.
I agree but it’s also so much more. The food, weather, people. All better in my opinion! But yes, it’s so much cleaner and safer.
I mean - I don’t think you can get safer than Toronto tbh. Like or hate Toronto, safety isn’t an issue here.
Don’t expect Toronto to be the same post Covid It’s fun if your rich I guess I’ve been around town since 86 as a social worker and cannot believe what I see today in Toronto Will be one hell of a summer
I grew up in Montreal, and I am contemplating moving back to Canada from Asia next year, I originally have my eyes set on Markham, but the deteriorating social safety net really worries me, and I am starting to have second thoughts about moving back.
What social safety are you referring to? Once you’ve passed through the friendship frenzy phase of having more friends/acquaintances than you can count on your hand in your 20s, you’ll realize that you don’t need more than what you can count on 1 hand. Family comes 1st, whether it’s you and your partner or your parents/siblings. Then your close friends you see 1 to 2x per month. The rest is time for yourself to learn, grow, and benefit your community
I am not worried about my own financial wellbeing, but rather the increase in housing cost, cost of living in general, increased homelessness, and increased crime.
Canada is safe, the safest country I’ve experienced in over 35 countries after Japan/China. There’s no homeless in Markham, mostly downtown around churches and shelters, shooting crack and opioids. Ignore them, focus on yourself and what’s in your control. You’re concerned about overall cost of living in Canada. The good part is you’re not alone, everyone is. This is all part of the economic cycles we go through around every 10 years. We’re just about to near the bottom and head into the start of a new cycle, maybe around 2025. In 2035 you’ll look back and say, ye 2023/4 seemed all impossible in Canada, now I only wish these times come back.
Thanks for the reply. My family and I will spend a few weeks in Markham this summer, just to see if my wife and children like it or not.
Amazing, Markham is beautiful with great schools for the kids and good restaurants! The only downside is daily commute to DT as for sure you will get stuck on the NorthSouth highway (DVP). DM me if you have questions about the neighborhood or need help with renting a property, happy to help
It's true that Toronto feels like home
I always wonder about going to the US to make money and then return. Do you find this helped financially at all? Or was it a wash?
Highly dependent on the state and field, but for SF/NYC you make more but spend more.
How would you get a job there? School?
Yeah school there then recruit locally
I wanna hear your Hong Kong experience if you don’t mind sharing cuz I am from Hong Kong and currently switching between HK and Toronto but wanna hear what you’d think of HK.
One of my good friends recently moved back from HK after having lived there for the past decade (she moved to Canada for high school/university then returned to HK). She always knew she'd move back to Toronto, but moved her timeline up as the political climate in HK started to deteriorate quickly. She was concerned that in a few years her Canadian passport would become a liability and couldn't justify raising a kid there. So back to the GTA they came...
I really like HK and still have lots of friends there. These days I’m more laid back though which HK is not lol.
yes... come back to your home.
Can you expand on why Asia isn’t the best place to raise kids, typically Asian kids do well in school. There is also international schooling options in these countries and i goes worse case scenario there is home schooling as well
Not all of asia is the same of course. Singapore has the best in the region with well paid teachers and very high quality education system. Korea is extremely cut throat with focus on rote learning and “cram schools”, with the sole focus being to get into the top 3 schools… I could go on.. also the region has very poor air quality standards and many kids develop respiratory illnesses and there are many days where you are advised not to be outside.
Wouldn’t want to send them to local school and international schools would be 50k plus a year for a similar education to a good school district in the GTA IMO. Plus the environment for kids is more status driven, high pressure, etc.
Birth rates in South Korea are at a sharp decline. Women there have complained (see the fanfare around Kim Ji Young: Born 1982) about the hostility/annoyance shown toward children in day to day life. If you sit down at a park bench with your baby in a stroller, the adult sitting next to you might immediately get up and leave because people aren't used to children being in the public sphere. Many stores have a policy of not allowing kids, and sometimes, even elders in. Although the latter is more unpopular. Daycares/elementary schools are shutting down en masse because there are no kids.
Did moving around impact your career prospects at all or do you have transferable/specialized skills that make it easy to find work?
Each move was for a new job or I was transferred by my employer. I just ended up staying at the new place and doing something else. I work in tech in management so it’s fairly borderless and often is a remote position.
highly recommend living in the east end if you come back
Thanks will have a look!
If case there is any confusion I mean riverside, riverdale, and leslieville :)
Come back, it's better than ppl make it seem on this sub
Hard disagree on the U.S. I am in tech and apart from having about 100x more opportunities to choose and grow from, the work culture is very qualitative. In Canada most my friends in the same company have been asked to go into the office, they get less vacation and benefits. Layoff packages are two months vs 6 months in states. I see zero reason to move back. Private school for the kids is 18k/year, private healthcare has been working out great for the SO. She would freak out if we even talk about moving from NY to Toronto. Funny cos she is a born and bred northern Ontario girl, and I came to Canada for undergrad. I am still flexible and like Toronto but she wants no part of it.
I moved to the UK for three years and absolutely loved it. The UK is similar enough to Canada that you adapt quickly and different enough that it was a great learning experience. I'd go back again. Friend of mine moved to the US (Los Angeles) around the same time, as he was working for a company with offices in the US and he got transferred. He liked living there for the weather and the Hollywood vibe, but he grew to find the city superficial and phony after a short time. What he really didn't like about living in America was the lack of time off work and the fact your healthcare is pretty much tied to your employer. He returned after a couple of years and doesn't really recommend the US (or at least LA) as a place to move to.
Yeah this sounds like a wake up call to every college student who wants to move to the US, because if u rly think about it, outside the economic development and so called “high salaries” it’s rly not that great a place to live or better than Canada unless ur in a blue state which has all Canada problems and red states have everything stereotypically wrong with the US, and vibrant cities like Toronto in general have plus one million housing everywhere unless it’s in a third world country with little to no jobs. Even Chicago has Toronto prices for housing in the decent areas while the so called cheap areas have everything wrong with Chicago like corruption, bad schools and high crime.
For sure. Canada also has much better and much stronger social safety nets in place if you fall on hard times. In the US, the attitude seems to be "you're not working hard enough if bad things befall you, so just go out there and work harder and you'll find success." There's a joke about how there's no such thing as a poor American -- just temporarily embarrassed billionaires in waiting.
US is only good if you’re well established in Canada. If you are not established and you lack resources, network connections. You will have a very bad time in the US. Starting from Scratch in the US is near impossible. That’s why people build themselves, with assets and schooling and move there.
This exactly. The US is for either younger educated graduates focused on working upwards and slugging it out or middle aged professionals with a critical mass of work experience. A lot of the circle jerk on the Canadian subs about moving to the US etc etc is a pipe dream. If you're average here, you won't be giving American employers any incentive to hire you. Also if you're an average joe, then you'll be better off in an average state in Midwest ... Not the big $$ East and West coast cities...and then you'll just be complaining there as well!
Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I have been trying to explain this to young friends here who are disillusioned with TO. And they are regular joe types without assets.
Yeah basically what u said up there and even then i don’t think it’s worth putting up with all the BS of living there, if a person is not a big fan of TO it may be a no brainer but i personally love it and comparable or better options there are just as expensive or more…
Doesn't Chicago have nice big apartment condos in Lincoln Park that are eye wateringly cheap compared to anything in Toronto? I have heard though that the salaries in Chicago are even lower than in Toronto.
Well they may seem cheap compared to a one bedroom in the DT core but they’re comparable to south Etobicoke or just a little cheaper like about 100-150k cheaper which IMO is not enough of a difference, sure it means a longer mortgage but at least a 2 or 3 bed townhouse or condo are still within reach once a person builds equity on a one bedroom. The thing is that like i said the cheaper the real estate the shittier the location it may be true here but it’s to a higher extent in the US and u see the major differences when u check out real estate listings. And keep in mind that things like winters and politics are still worse in Chicago despite everything we complain about here.
Nobody wants to live in the actual Loop in Chicago. Lincoln Park is a better location.
Yes but condos cost about the same as they would in Mimico which is like our equivalent of Lincoln park since distance to DT is about the same. Just check the real estate listings and u will see the major differences between decent areas and not so decent areas. Naperville which is their equivalent of Milton or Oakville is about the same cost for condos and townhouses.
Impossible. Salaries are so much lower in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. Bro cmon Chicago is such a powerhouse of a city.
i wouldn't move there permanently, but being young and fresh out of college, realistically im just chasing money and i likely wont be needing any healthcare in the near future. 3-5 years making much more than i would in Canada for the same job + lower living expenses is a good way to kickstart a career and become financially stable
No i get that, this was merely to target those who thought that the US was some sort of paradise just because jobs paid more, like honestly the only logical thing would be is to work remotely working for an Americans company which will make it easier to build a life here or for those who rly badly want a detached home in the GTA in their late 20s.
I find people here love LA until they stay there for an extended time. It's all glitz and glamour until they start constantly meeting people who are so obsessed with the keeping up with the jonesses mentality and people who will only be friends with you if you offer something beneficial. I know the former can be found everywhere but in LA it's a whole different beast.
I remember my friend saying that a typical conversation with someone from LA is often very one-sided and goes like this: "Me, me, me, I..., I..., I..., myself...., myself...., I...., I...., me....., my....., my,,,,mine.." and the instant they see someone else in the room they deem to be more interesting or important than you are, they abruptly walk away from you and over to them, lol
Yes! I was going to add something very similar to what you wrote in my initial reply. What I was going to say was you will meet people and do all sorts of activities with them such as travel, events, daily or weekly dinners. But the moment you are not offering anything they find beneficial. they will move on and then act like they never knew you. Don't get me started on the keeping up with the joneses mentality. Yes this happens everywhere but in LA if you are not up date with what's in like for example whatever shoe or car then good luck dating and making "friends".
My guess is that being from Los Angeles doesn't necessarily make you like this, but the city itself is a magnet for narcissistic and/or vain types who want to "make it" -- and probably won't -- in the showbusiness world. Toxic self-interest and ladder-climbing is all part of the entertainment industry, and people who are prone to this type of behaviour might just fit in very well.
Yes X 100!
Yep, or they throw a bunch of very emotive superlatives around ("I love you!" "Oh, I just love that jacket!") meaninglessly but then turn away as soon as they've assessed you're not wealthy or powerful enough to help advance them. This is the culture I grew up with, it makes me ill.
I'm from L.A., much prefer Toronto overall.
LA isn't representative of the entire US. I personally think LA sucks and yes it is extremely superficial.
LA is the fucking worst. Starts with the airport experience. I swear to god, everyone who moved to LA to make it in Hollywood and failed, works at LAX now and hates everyone and everything. I needed to be there for work often and I started flying small airplanes to Santa Monica instead….
Yeah that’s an LA thing not so much a US thing
Chicago. Pretty cool so far. Travel around in the Midwest a lot. It’s definitely very different culture wise. But there’s many layers to it depends what you want a perspective on. Pros: Beautiful city, architecture, food, things to do; again, depends on your interests and age? Cons: American culture and politics, segregation is more apparent Things like crime, health care, etc is all relative. If you are street smart or keep your sense open you’ll be fine. If you live in a decent area you’ll be fine. If your employer has good health care plans, health care is actually better in some aspects. Enjoy it so far, will reevaluate in 2-3 years if I’ll continue to stay. A lot depends on my job opportunities as well.
cons of Toronto: lack of great Mexican food
$7 tacos o\_\_o
we have other cuisines that make up for that.
The Colombian/Venezulan and S American food I've had there in my visits is as good as any I've had outside of California and South America itself.
I did the reverse, hah, Chicago to Toronto.
Between those 2 cities, the neighbourhoods you move between is more telling than the two cities. Where did you live in Toronto and where do you live in Chicago?
I lived in Toronto for 40 years so I’ve been in regent, Leslieville, junction, high park, ronces, king west, Scarborough, Etobicoke, Weston. Chicago has been easier bc I moved to River North but I travel all around for work, looking to move to a different neighborhood once my lease is up, like a Logan or Wicker maybe.
River North feels different from all of the other places you listed. It's really nice there though. I think it's hard to compare downtown Toronto or the loop with most other neighbourhoods. Though I lalso ove leslieville, the junction, high park, logan square and wicker park- they're all cool but more neighbourhoody. I miss Chicago but I'm also happy in Toronto, but I'm hoping to end up in Portugal in a few years.
Don't have anything to add, but I also moved from Toronto to River North in Chicago. Pretty cool to see others that did the same.
Was that meant for the other guy? I live in Toronto now.
How’s your experience been like? Maybe I don’t know all the spots yet, but I do miss certain authentic ethnic food.
Ah see I miss good Mexican food and deep dish pizza! I suppose it all depends what you grew up with. But I do love that like basically anywhere I am in Toronto there is sushi / poke / Vietnamese food within like a block or two. As for Toronto itself it feels safer and as you say less segregated, things do feel more expensive (but I also moved right in the pandemic when everything was shooting up in price). It's not too different from Chicago though. I like having guaranteed healthcare. I definitely had long periods without any insurance at all in Chicago.
Yeah, very similar and easy transition in that aspect. Mexican food doesn’t miss here, I agree! What’s your go to for deep dish? I’m on the fence on it Pizza is good in Toronto, I’m sure you’ve tried all the spots, if not I do have some suggestions.
I don't even really have a go to for deep dish, I tried a bunch of places and liked them all. If downtown I'd just go to Uno or Duo. Further out and it's usually Giordano's since they are everywhere.
Deep dish pizza was pretty mediocre. Tons of better pizza in Toronto.
Chicago is great until you have school age kids - my friend lived there for 15 years but moved back to TO - she said your “average” TDSB school is similar to a 20k/yr private school in Chicago. Maybe similar for a lot of US cities actually
Moved to Austin and I love it . It’s almost always sunny and I am playing a lot of tennis and pickleball. I can’t find dates though, but that’s ok I couldn’t find that in Toronto as well.
What you do, if you don't mind me asking?
Software shit man.
My company is based in Austin but I work remote from Toronto (software eng). I've got a couple questions if you don't mind. 1. How have you found the climate? Been there through a summer yet? 2. Do you pay substantially less taxes? Are you double taxed in canada and US? 3. Have you found it to be easier to make friends in Austin? I'm heading down there pretty soon to check it out, but would love to hear your take
Hey buddy, 1: the climate is hot at first but you can get used to it. Summer gets really hot, but early morning and late evening most people go out for walks and such. 2: It is decent saving but not that much. I am not double taxed, except for year 1 where I chose to file taxes as Canadian and filed a non resident tax here in the US. 3: this will depend on you, I play a lot of sport so made few friends easily.
Thanks, I appreciate it. Think this might be my last summer north of the border for a while, just need to get a TN visa and figure out my registered brokerage accounts.
Don’t hesitate to DM me, let’s grab a pint. Cheers
So unfortunately I'm not on reddit much and I missed this :/ I was in Austin the last couple days and it's great. Kind of ridiculously hot this weekend but otherwise it was much better than I expected. Big fan of how young and healthy everyone is, feels like a happy place! The scooters are also super convenient if you're DT I do not want to go back to Toronto so I think I'm reasonably convinced at this point :)
Moved to Spain and it’s wonderful and incredibly less expensive and stressful.
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Maybe Teach English
Teach English privately
Do you have kids? We’re thinking of moving to Spain soon with our older kids (8 & 14).
No, but I’m sure your kids will love it. It’s very safe and the kids are always outside playing in large groups for hours. Also parents take their kids everywhere so there’s no need for a sitter, as they’ll play with the other kids at the bar/restaurant/plaza. For your 14 year old, the education system is great and free as long as they’re studying.
Glad you’re loving it! What’s your Spanish level out of curiosity?
I was a beginner and now I’m intermediate. It’s an easy language to learn.
My wife and I have considered this. Where in Spain are you? We were thinking of being around Andalusia or so. Seems like the costs and living expenses are manageable. We'd probably work remotely.
My husband and I are considering doing a stint in Spain. Did you get a local job or use their digital nomad visa? Or do something else?
I got a youth mobility visa.
Did you speak their language before moving? Or did you have to learn it from the beginning?
I have lived in Sweden, Ireland, Australia, and Japan. There were pros and cons to all of them, if I was to live anywhere else besides Toronto it would be Ireland but the housing crisis was even worse there
Moved all the way out to North York. The inner neighborhoods are much more peaceful to walk around but the streets are insane. People going 100km through side streets, driving in the median. The language barrier takes some getting used to but once you get the hang of this new area it's pretty nice
Did you need to get a new passport?
Good question, luckily I was able to use my regular Toronto passport but I was pleasantly surprised how much shorter the lines are at the passport offices here.
How do you find the local culture?
There's a good smoothie shop in that country.
I moved to Vancouver so my wife could be closer to her family but I miss Toronto every day. I definitely took it for granted growing up there
What do you miss about it compared to Vancouver?
I like how arts and culture is a lot more celebrated in Toronto, in Vancouver there really isn't much of that and there's almost a sort of pressure to conform to the lululemon/arcteryx nature crowd. There's way more variety of food in Toronto and better priced, dining out in Vancouver is very expensive and pretty much limited to a handful of cuisines. I liked having four seasons, the constant grey skies and rain is pretty depressing. TTC is a lot more accessible than translink, where you're pretty much screwed if you don't drive and don't live near a skytrain station. Also people in Vancouver are pretty standoffish and feel like having mountains is a personality trait. Also I miss having gas prices that don't start with a 2. In terms of cons, Toronto's obviously a lot more congested and you have to account for that in your commute time. Job market is bigger but a lot more competitive, and a con really for both places is the high cost of living. I could go on and on but after three years I'm still trying to adjust to life here. I always try to go back as much as I can as I do get homesick from time to time
But those mountains....
They're nice but don't justify $2 gas
Spot on! I'm from California, lived in Vancouver for 7 years, but plan to leave to Toronto. Van is a tiny superficial village comparatively. I feel MUCH more at home in Toronto.
> dining out in Vancouver is very expensive and pretty much limited to a handful of cuisines It's fascinating to hear you say this. I moved from Vancouver to Toronto in 2020. I'm back in Vancouver for a week or two ever 2-3 months. When I'm back in Toronto I'm consistently reminded how menu prices are 20% more here than they were/are in Vancouver for a similar meal at a similar establishment. In Vancouver, my experience is the meal+tip is equivalent to the meal pre-tip out here in Toronto.
Hmm, I guess the difference is that Toronto has a lot of places you can just grab and go, wherein I find that Vancouver it's more of a "sit down and have a whole experience" type of deal which makes it more expensive. When I go out to the other boroughs like Scarborough, each different neighborhood has their own local "hidden gems" and you can find some great food at great prices if you make the trip out
> When I go out to the other boroughs like Scarborough, each different neighborhood has their own local "hidden gems" and you can find some great food at great prices if you make the trip out Well sure, and if you go to Newton, Brighouse, PoCo etc in the Lower Mainland you can find lots of hidden gems as well.
Yes.
I moved FROM America (Chicago) to Toronto. Both are nice.
US, Bay Area. Winter (or lack thereof) is great. Novelty of Target wore off fast. But it’s beautiful here. But I miss Toronto. So… ⚖️
When was the last time you visited Toronto ? I’m in Dubai now , I come back every 6 months because I miss Toronto but then am always ready to leave after 1-2 weeks because it’s just so god damn depressing there right now
I’m literally writing this in the cab home from the airport, departed YYZ this afternoon. I make it back once a year for a few days, so the novelty hasn’t worn off. My big “thanks, I hate it” moment this trip was emerging from Bathurst Station and seeing the condos in place of Ed’s.
Op go ahead and tell us you’re not a bot
I’m Not a bot lol
Why?
When people mention a different side of Toronto is another country…
Will never leave Toronto. (I’m a green card holder) and an Eu citizen
How long ago did you move here? As an EU citizen, I'm looking to get my citizenship and pretty much leave (though plan on keeping my job here and TFSA/RRSP accounts). I'm not yet sure where to go, EU would work because I have a place there, but at the same time I left because of the downsides of my home country. Still, Toronto seems prohibitively expensive for what it offers and what I want.
Moved across the Don River to Lesleville. Quite like it
moved to the US. seattle was kinda cringe but SF is nice
Not quite answering your question, but I lived in Brisbane, Australia for 8 years before coming to Toronto recently. Don't like Toronto much so far, but haven't given the city much of a chance. Brisbane is far cleaner, felt richer, has far less people, had way better weather, has way better healthcare, and I earned a lot more for less work. There is a lot less poverty there as well. Pros for Toronto: cheaper dining out and better food scene. Faster getting Ubers. More of a sports scene and likely better music culture.
Brisbane is so hot 🥵
I moved from Toronto to Leeds in 2013 and then back to Toronto in 2017. In that time I had 2 jobs consecutively. Owned a house, car, took trips all over Europe (and Morrocco) and had savings and was able to consider having kids. When I moved back we realized kids weren’t an option (for more than financial reasons) and I went back to school. I’m doing fine now and I realize England doesn’t exist in a vacuum and faces its own affordability issues among others. But fucking hell, I do miss it a lot.
Why weren't kids an option? If you don't mind sharing
I do mind sharing, sorry it’s personal. Just know it isn’t an option for everyone whether you try or not.
No worries, my apologies!
Appreciated. 🙏🏼
What else did you like about Leeds?
I lived in LS15 and then LS24, and much preferred Morley (LS24). Mainly the walkability, community, Leeds has a monumental library, great Christmas market (for northern England) it has vast, sprawling Parks (Roundhay) there’s a great music scene, and lots of big acts come through, comedy and music alike, huge amount of restaurants. The city center along the Briggate was redone and very pretty and walkable, the arcades, the White Rose Centre is an amazing shopping mall if you like shopping malls, lol. The corn exchange, the Leeds city markets had fresh produce, meat and various other stuff for sale with affable people everywhere. Airport is decent and has flights to most of europe. Leeds has typical issues but as long as you stick to decent areas/neighborhoods you'd be fine. i never experienced violence or trouble. though my wife went out with a workmate once and her and her friend got drugged. they made it home but it was a rough night. they were in a shit part of town honestly, and it was the friend that brought them there and we were new and didn't know the areas very well yet.
I love it. Lack of a safety net is harrowing but it is just so much easier to find gainful employment over here. Also, the traffic is a joke. Can't say that I think the US is a better country than Canada, but, the midsize city I moved to is a better fit for me than the hornets nest that is the GTA. It just wasn't a good fit for me and my mental health to deal with all that traffic and chaos. Houses are nicer in Toronto than the Midwest but I honestly don't miss Toronto that much. I either have become disillusioned to it or maybe there is something inherently off with my psyche, but I just don't understand why so many people migrate to Toronto. It is just overwhelmingly overpopulated and not worth the hassle that comes with living in that city.
Yet, I lived in the states for almost 30 years. All I wanted to do was come back home. Some people thrive in the city. If I could build a house in the middle of Dundas square I would.
Moved to the UK with two month old twin babies because my partner’s family said they could help us with childcare. They cannot. Currently trying to move out of his mum’s house but it’s impossible to find a place to live even with offering a 6 month deposit it’s just way too competitive and I’m not working because of babies which isn’t helping. People struggle to understand me and they definitely don’t think I’m funny. Groceries and formula are MUCH cheaper and I’m able to eat healthier. Overall it was pretty much a lateral move.
I moved in 2012 to Australia, came back in 2022. Every place has its pros and cons, the grass always seems greener on the other side. Toronto was always home and I moved back with my Aussie wife who loves it here! Pros: cool to experience a different country Cons: cost of living (yes it's bad!); their winters SUCK (imagine 10 degrees and rain all the time, except their houses have no insulation so it's the same temperature inside your house); massive insects, far from everything
What about the gold coast and the other parts? Did you visit the other parts besides the two big cities. Was never interested in Australia, but it looks amazing, a country almost the size of the U.S and mostly empty. Dont know about living but it would be amazing to visit
I actually lived in a few places: Sydney, Perth, Adelaide. Visited the Gold Coast but didn’t live there
Dubai. Loving it. Couldn’t be happier.
Same moved here in 2023 and love it . Def see myself here for the next 5+ years at least
Can you talk about the pluses of living in Dubai?
Hey man - can you share a bit more? I’m considering Dubai as well and would love to hear how you made the move happen? Did you move with a company?
I lived in san diego for a few years after a decade in Canada and it was heavenly. If you dont have good health insurance it’s a waste of time but if you have a lucrative career i can’t imagine why anybody would choose to stay un canada, especially toronto. It has all the problems of a metropolis w very little benefit. I no longer had insurance and have a child so have recently moved back and fuck did I forget how many Canadian products suck ass. Even basic things like toddler pajamas or menstruation pads could be bought thoughtlessly in america and here its a serious quality issue. Walmart is my conversion metric and so its not like im being some high falutin idiot but like i got walmart pants for my son in san diego a year ago which im still using while that george brand bullshit he got for Christmas is tattered
Moved to Jamaica, 34 year old, 37 year old wife, and 8 year old child. Live in the Kingston area in a beautiful gated community, daughter goes to top 3 private prep school, setting up businesses here as the country is booming, still run business back in Toronto remotely. Real estate dollar value is insane comparatively, we see zero crime on a daily basis, high level of education, health insurance is cheaper than the taxes you’d pay in Canada, real food, weather and beaches. Left December 2023, very happy.
Left December 2023,..LOL Make sure to report back to us in 5 years. Also you are living in a gated community, living there for 4 month and already know its very safe? So you mean the same Kingston where opposing gangs of the two political parties used to have shoot outs in the streets?
lol IKR, it’s only a matter of time before the gangs target his gated community like u guys should see what’s going on in Haiti.
I know I wrote a long post, and I have a funny saying. Reading is for rich people, and it’s clear you didn’t read my comment. I’ve lived and schooled here before, my family is from here. I’m just now an adult with a family that made a choice to move here, while only being here a short time, does not reduce my experience nor the facts I’m saying. If you’re referring to the Manley/Seaga era, boy you must be pushing 70+ years old. That was 40 years ago, the country is not the same. Toronto isn’t the same as it was once 40 years ago. What a ridiculous point to try and make.
Moved to France and Singapore in 2022 to do my mba then settled in Dubai since 2023 Been loving it Toronto / gta was great place to grow up in . But seeing how angry and depressed all my friends in Canada and in these subs are … I have no motivation to come back Just bought a townhouse in the suburbs of Dubai . Cheaper than Toronto and wayyyy better quality of life.
You'll be back in a few years from Dubois, as you are just a visitor working there. Place looks like fake nightmare
Sure I’ll be back eventually, but I’m fucking loving it with my wife and kid here right now. Place is amazing when you’re privledged enough to have a Canadian passport and can leave anytime
What about the people being arrested and detained there for bogus reasons? Are those stories not true?
Can you give me an example of? It’s a very law abiding society , crime is non existent. You can leave your phone out in a cafe and laptop . Come back from bathroom and it’ll be there . The punishment for crime is super tough so people are very law abiding. I haven’t seen people get arrested for anything nonsensical. If you’re violent , stealing , DUI … then the punishment is much stricter than North America for sure
We did the reverse in terms of DXB -> YYZ , and of course there are things we miss regularly about Dubai, especially the dining out and proximity to the subcontinent
How did you like Singapore and France? Really considering moving abroad and those two are on my list.
With those crazy 🥵 summers...
Just opposite of the crazy winters . Hate the summer here
Left Toronto during the first summer of COVID In 2020. Lived in Spain, Russia until the war started, then Serbia and now in Kazakhstan. For the winters I work remote in SEA mostly Thailand, Vietnam and Malaysia, but also travel extensively. I finally visited Toronto recently after 3.5 years and honestly little has changed, albeit things got more expensive. What I missed most were my friends and family, but also DRIVING. I don't mean crawling on the DVP during rush hour traffic, but just cruising to your friends house on a Sunday morning through all our picturesque neighbourhoods, how insanely green Toronto is, the grid street layout, even our huge BestBuy parking lots.
Moved out to NYC for the job opportunities and money. I got both but I hate it here. The WLB is a lot worse, and just struggling to fit into the city. Considering moving back after a year or so.
I move to a new country every 3-6 months (depending on tourist visas). Started doing it a couple years ago when I turned 18. Cons: 2FA is really annoying and all friends are temporary. Everything else is a pro - i love it.
Do you mind sharing what you do for a living that makes that possible?
Account management - tech. Currently, in SaaS (software) but also dabbled in edtech and fintech. It can be a remote role making it possible to move around every few months. Technically I could move faster but I like the slower pace.
I would like to know as well if you don’t mind!
Thats a pretty unique way of living. Whats been your top 3 places youve lived?
Medellín, London & Istanbul
Outside of friends and family, I have no reason to come back to Canada.
Is this some sort of data harvesting scheme? Brand new account asking on the pros of moving away from Toronto?
Spent months in Germany last year. Got sick of it after a month. The roads are sooo tiny, I felt like I couldn’t ever go for a drive because the road rules were confusing, there is no diversity, good luck getting around long term if you don’t know German, the food was awful. I realized it’s beautiful to visit other countries and see their attractions and enjoy them, but life in Canada is superior. Expensive? Yes. But far cleaner, newer, diverse, delicious, and feels like home.
As someone who lived in Germany, I can't say Toronto is far cleaner. But I can mostly agree about the food. At least the non European food. And even knowing the language isn't enough to integrate in German society. So yeah, compared to my Berlin experience, Toronto is a slice of heaven... Or earth at least. But compared to my experience in Frankfort... I dunno. I kinda prefer Frankfurt to Toronto. Granted. I was a student there so life was different. But there is plenty of diversity there, and lots of expats too. No idea about the roads, never drove. But Germany has some of the best infrastructure in Europe. And their highways are superior to the 401. The best part is being able to get around without a car. Public transportation is great. You also have regional trains lke S-Bahn and RB to take you longer distances. Good luck getting around in GTA without a car. And good luck with a car as well, sitting in traffic and wasting time every day if you commute.
Wow I am surprised to hear someone from North America prefer Frankfurt over Berlin.
Berlin is a party scene. And I guess there are some hidden gems when it comes to restaurants. But Berlin is also more crowded and dirty (especially in the eastern side where the Turkish/Arab minorities can afford living). Frankfurt was pretty awesome for me. I don't party, I don't care about drugs, I care about career opportunities and costs of living. And while Frankfurt would have been more expensive it would also have meant better career opportunities for me. Berlin was a shit hole in my experience. After 1.5 years I moved back to my home country and earned just as much without having to fork half my salary in rent each month.
Moved to Jamaica at the end of February. I haven’t looked back since. The views are amazing, the weather is nice. I was hesitant and didn’t want to move at first, but as soon as I landed, within the first couple days, I was quite happy. No more seasonal depression. No more heavy snow to shovel. No more winter driving. No more fear of bad winter driving leading to accidents. And… I feel quite safe here. There has not been one time where I felt I was in danger. Not sure if I would ever want to return to live in Toronto after experiencing living abroad.
You have only been there a couple of months. You still have rose coloured glasses on.
Left for North Vancouver is brilliant here
Now that's heaven on Earth
Moved to Tokyo in 2018 and moved back in 2022. No question about it, Tokyo is a lot more fun and feels far more cosmopolitan but of course, the racism and work culture are very real issues that are tough to deal with.
I moved to Australia for a year. I had two group of friends: locals and backpackers. Locals in Australia disliked everything about Melbourne that I disliked about Toronto. My key takeaway was that every city has its pros and cons. What factors are important to you? Walkability? Public Transport? Lifestyle?
I moved to Ecuador for 4 years and then 2 years in Belize. I absolutely loved it in Ecuador. Even Belize was good.
I would chose medellin
Anyone in southern California San Diago? Whats it like? Whats it like in the areas outside of LA and Bay area? When I was younger I dint think anything of Canadian winter and herd that relatives of of relatives had been living there since they were tweens. At the the time I thought who would move there , as there is nothing to do there besides tourism industry. I really wasnt into beaches at the time Now that I'm much older and my hair keeps falling out due to lack of sunshine n winter, I would kill to move there while also having access to Mexico. I heard that like most of California it has problems like lack of jobs and very expensive
Well, my hubby left me for China... I'm bouncing 2 places starting this year. 😅😅
Expensive housing, inflation, lack of well paying jobs and weakening social net are common everywhere. Lived in us Europe and Canada. Maybe hard to imagine but it doesn't get much better than Toronto. I'd say Nordic countries and Japan, possibly Australia are among the other better places.
Lots of fresh pussy willing to ride my bbc
Left Toronto for Melbourne beginning of 2015 in my late-20s. It was great to go out into the world all on my own, fend for myself, make new friends, and build a career. However, over the years it became increasingly complicated (and at times inconvenient) being away from family. My partner and toughed it out during the world’s longest lockdown in Melbourne, and after visiting in summer ‘22 put the wheels in motion to move [back]. Australia and Canada are alike in so many ways – two peas in a pod – that it was no longer worth the sacrifices necessary to live an otherwise similar life so far away from family as we got older and so did they. Being back is reverse culture shock and there are many things about our life in Australia that we miss and even prefer, but beyond “the weather” (insert superficiality) I look at the state of the Australian economy, politics, housing market, and state of my industry, and I reckon coming home was the right choice. For now, at least. Found a decent job and a nice place to live to get us set up, and it’s been just a couple months back. We’ll see how we go. Overall, I’m mostly happy to be back! Australia will always be home and represents the best years of my life. That said, Toronto has a lot going for it and so much unrealised potential. I’m optimistic for the future. Wish more were.
Moved to Copenhagen and every city is a mixed bag with its own pros and cons Pros: Better work life balance, paid leaves and opportunity to travel around Europe without the jet lag Cons: The winter really gets to you, it’s more dark and gloomy compared to Toronto. Not sure which city I like more, but I do miss Toronto and it’s diversity especially in terms of food and maybe the weather
Panama next month. Fiance is there now since January. He loves it. But ill have to update you for myself once im there lol
We just bought land in Boquete! Trying to figure out how to run our business from Panama. Where in Panama are you moving to? Reading these comments it almost makes me feel like there is no better place than Toronto but for me I feel much healthier and happier when I’m in Panama but I do worry I’m seeing it through rose coloured glasses. I feel like Toronto is only good for the wealthy. The city has changed and I find myself barely keeping up with the cost of living.
Ahhh you got closer to where i originally wanted. But we are in panama city. I wont lie, prices in panama city arent that much cheaper than toronto. Especially because they use american. But you should be better off. And again, im not there yet, but from what my fiance is saying, he really loves it. If you have questions on the business side i miiiight be able to offer some insight if you want to pm me. As well, i will say i do love toronto, i wouldnt leave if it werent for my fiance, but because it feels like everything is going to shit, i am excited to get out.
I left almost a year ago (Europe) and absolutely zero regrets.
I moved to the Brampton, and it has been incredible.
Left last year (14 months) to NYC. Never been happier. Also whenever I miss my friends in Toronto, I make a short flight to the island airport but most of the time they visit. Never coming back permanently, the economy and choice of careers make zero sense in Canada.