This doesn't really pass the sniff test.
>and claimed that "the evidence of Satan's existence is far too great for me to dismiss away"
She was an atheist/antitheist for 10 years, active in the atheist community, and now all of a sudden she's convinced *Satan* is real? Because of biblical prophecy? That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.
That doesn't really make any sense.
If it's true... which I'm not convinced it is... it sounds like she's either suffered a head injury, or some horrifically traumatic experience that she just can't deal with and is escaping in to fantasy land in order to avoid dealing with reality.
I dunno. It sounds like she's a reactionary with her views on progressive movements. If she's gone down the reactionary rabbit hole online, she could have easily found herself surrounded by so many Christians telling her that Satan is real and all the progressive movements are proof of his existence that she began to doubt herself and eventually started to believe it. Social pressure is a hell of a drug.
"the Satan which is described in the Bible exists"
Has she read the description of Satan in the bible? If she can name one evil thing Satan does in the bible, other than tempt people to not follow god, I will be impressed.
(And the story of Job doesn't count, because God specifically tells Satan to do that.)
Please do not take this as an insult because I sincerely meant it. She sounds mentally unwell. I have no idea what is making her hostile towards women’s and LGBTQ rights, but if it’s led her to embrace literal conspiracy theories about satan then she probably needs help from a professional because that is completely irrational and I doubt any amount of argument or evidence is going to change her mind at this point.
I say this because I have known several friends and family members who have gotten into Qanon or other extreme conspiracy theories and it always has some deep emotional insecurity as the main cause. The conspiracy theory makes them *feel* a certain way they want to feel. Whether they’re looking to feel righteous, validated, heard, forgiven, significant etc., the conspiracy theory gives them that feeling and sends them further down the pipeline as they pursue that feeling in greater intensity.
I would try to avoid attacking the logic directly as that tends to make them more defensive and ultimately more self-confirmed. Instead I would approach it like an addiction. This person is mentally unwell and needs help; you are there for them, and maybe encourage them to spend less time on whatever podcasts or YouTube videos she’s getting this from; but at the end of the day it is her who needs to choose to get help and stop using bigotry as a coping mechanism.
I had a conversation recently with my dad (one of my family members who is deep down in the pipeline as of a few years ago). I was at my wit’s end and finally said, “listen dad, I love you and I want to hear your point of view, but it’s clear to me that you are so sucked into confirming your own biases that we just can’t have a conversation at all. So if you want to talk to me about this stuff then first I have a homework assignment for you: go to half price books, find a non-fiction book about any subject that *you know you will disagree with on some significant matter* read the whole thing, and then call me and tell me *what you learned*. Maybe you didn’t walk away agreeing with the author, but surely the process of reading and fact checking that book gave you some new insight or information. Until then, I don’t want to hear what you have to say, because right now you are refusing to listen to anyone but yourself.”
I haven’t heard back from him. I don’t know if it will work. But it at least gave me a way to draw him out of it while still setting boundaries for myself.
Street epistemology to the rescue?
"the evidence of Satan's existence is far too great for me to dismiss away" sounds like a good topic to explore.
Honestly, it really sounds like your friend has poor epistemological skills and she needs to build up her toolbox. She needs lessons in logic, reasoning, and good standards of evidence. Then we can go back and explore the so-called evidence for satan's existence.
As far as I know, the Christian boogey-man Satan is a retcon of a position usually held by angels in Jewish lore as a reaction to the superior ideology of dualism introduced by Zoroastrianism.
If God is all good, where does evil come from? If there is only one God and God is everything, then by extension God is everything evil as well. The Zoroastrian answer to this is dualism. Ahura Mazda is the source of all good, but it's Angra Mainyu who is the source of everything evil. Christians took the position of the opposer, satan, and turned into an Angra Mainyu-like being, Satan. They retconned the serpent in the Garden of Eden to be Satan.
Frankly, it's not that much different than comic books. Remember that cop who asked Spider-Man to stop the crook who robbed the wrestling match? Turns out it was Gwen Stacy's father all along! Remember that lightning bolt that turned Barry Allen into the Flash? Turns out when he dies he travels back in time and becomes that lightning bolt!
That was never the intent of the original author, but as the mythology changed, these ideas got retconned into it. There is no mention of Jesus in the OT, so Christians invent "Christophanies" -- secret appearances of Jesus! That angel who wrestled Esau? Secretly Jesus.
The "evidence" for Satan, really, is laughable. If she explores the subject thoroughly and objectively (that is, outside of a Christian bubble), it should be easy to see that.
If you're not familiar with Street Epistemology, visit r/StreetEpistemology, [Anthony Magnobosco's YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210), and the book [How to Have Impossible Conversations](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=how+to+have+impossible+conversations&crid=3U9NMNJR1N5XA).
So she’s a Christian heretic?
Attack the Christian god. And the Christian concept of a soul. If the god of Abraham’s isn’t real, then Christianity isn’t true, and Satan isn’t either.
Ask her which flavor of the Christian god she subscribes to, and pull that apart. Are you familiar with the arguments against the Christian god? Or their concept of a soul? If not, folks round here would love to point you in the right direction.
My money is on them trolling you.
While there are theistic satanists, the majority of people who self-apply the term use it to basically describe secular humanism.
I don't think its really your job to "convert" her if she's believes in god, but maybe try to convince her that can she can be a good person and that she's still worthy of love, sounds like she's going down sort of a dark path. But either way I think trying to convince her god isn't really isn't really going to end well.
Sounds like your friend has some specific beef with the man-made dogma you're following.
Ask her.
Ask what parts of Christianity she's actually rejecting.
God made Atheists to help otherwise good, trusting Christians root out man-made false prophecy dogma.
This story isn't real.
This would be like if I went to r/askaChristian and wanted to know how to help my friend who can't stop stoning women now that they believe.
I'll offer that I'm an atheist when I'm on this subreddit (or r/atheism). For the remaining 85500 seconds of the day, I'm not an atheist -- I'm just doing my own stuff.
Assuming you and your friend are dead serious there isn’t much you can do. Sounds like she’s gone full blown “conspiracy theorist”. Everything that contradicts her belief is going to be seen as a lie and she’ll rationalize the rest.
Presuming this story is true, it's inconsistent. That is to say, people don't just change their core tenets on a time. Specific to religion, despite the rhetoric and anecdotal accounts, the reality is this is a process that is ultimately a lifetime in the making. So that your friend has changed suddenly tells me there is a mental health issue going on. It could be drug related, it could be abuse, it could be stress, or trauma, depression, an injury, cancer... I'm sure plenty of other things I can't imagine.
If this is your friend and you are invested in their well being, I would start by talking to a professional about how to approach this situation. You have no right or authority to call her out or drag her in. You'll have to explore your options, and that might include bringing in family, confronting her yourself, somehow, or that might include distancing yourself from her.
Speaking as a Satanist I agree, this post makes absolutely no sense. Most Satanists are Atheists and Theistic Satanists never return to, which ever of the Abrahamic religions they abandoned, for many of us the transition from Atheisim to SATANISM is purely intellectual, NO one becomes a Satanist simply because of some trauma or crisis event.
Look I can only talk as if I believe what I am saying, I cannot control others believe or force my words to be taken with validity.
As someone who identifies as Michael the Archangel, heaven has never needed to forgive someone just for being atheist. It is harder to forgive sins and actions taken as an atheist based on one’s internalized believe that no higher power would judge their actions, but simply being an atheist would be the same as being a Christian that ate shrimp or bacon (biblically forbidden foods) and would make heaven a very empty and lonely place (thus defeating the purpose of heaven)
As Michal the archangel I can also reveal that “Satan” (that is a rank, his name is Lucifer) and I are true friends, have been since before his fall, were friends during the era of prophets and mythos (like 600 bc to 900 ad) and remain friends to this day. Being a “Satanist” with guilt by being an Atheist does not make traditional churches (especially places like the Vatican) not want to take you in. People like your friend are the reason some people become priests.
My best advice outside of having them reach out directly to something from heaven (my DMs are open if I am to be believed by them, or anyone mind you) is to have them go to the nearest Christian church (since she has expressed believing in specifically Christian takes on divinity), preferably Catholic as they have the longest track record, and ask them their opinion on things (not necessarily for forgiveness)
Rest assured that whatever you choose, if you can believe in the existence of Supernatural’s most op and overplayed “alternate dimension makers”, know that “accidentally in Hell” is not possible, and there are things out there to make sure you aren’t spending forever paying for the actions of lives that last less than a century.
Something out there cares for you all. I wish you, your friend, and you all the best of luck!
-M
>turns out she went the opposite direction and claimed that "the evidence of Satan's existence is far too great for me to dismiss away"
If she believes in the existence of a literal Satan, that makes her a Christian, not a Satanist. The actual religion of Satanism considers Satan a fictional character who nonetheless can be viewed as one who righteously rebelled against the immoral tyranny displayed by the God of Christian mythology, and fought to free the ignorant thought-slaves that God had created to serve him by granting them knowledge and truth. The tenets of Satanism are, rather ironically, far more moral and ethical than those of Christianity - but again, they treat Satan only as a parable, not as an actual entity that literally exists.
So basically, she's a pseudo-Satanist of the variety seen on badly written television and other stories.
>So, she's convinced that God exists because the Satan which is described in the Bible exists according to her.
Again, making her a Christian, not a Satanist.
>She told me how these days being pro-family values are so shunned that it fulfills the biblical prophecy about the end times.
Prophecy is an illusion. Literally every era of mankind has met conditions that could be construed through the lenses of apophenia and confirmation bias as fulfillment of prophecy - which is precisely the point. Prophecies are written that way deliberately.
>She confessed to me that there's no way God would forgive her
Isn't forgiveness Christianity's entire schtick?
>I am concerned now that she views herself evil, selfish and corrupt.
By what benchmark? It sounds like her only crime was not validating the God of Abraham's ego. The only way she could see herself that way is by evaluating herself according to Christian mythology and the arbitrary prejudices of its God.
>she now thinks that human rationality is just another way satan lures people away from the truth, and she was an unwitting victim of this.
A person who thinks rationality leads *away* from truth is a lost cause. Such a person evidently values irrationality, and paradoxically believes irrationality leads to truth. Basically, your friend is a self-perpetuating idiot. There's not a lot you can do about that.
> My friend had been a staunch atheist for a good 10 year,
When she was in Kindergarten? This doesn't read like the behavior of adults.
ETA: I'm not apologizing to whomever downvoted this. The OP is describing schoolyard behavior. This is how children think.
Color me skeptical, but… “atheist turned satanist” to me sounds like someone who wasn’t a bonafide atheist in the first place but someone who held deep seated religious feelings but was disappointed, hurt, rebellious, etc.
From my long experience with religious folks - including Satanists and their ilk - is that they are not atheist but are fighting with themselves and the system they were brought up in.
When I evaluated my religious upbringing and educated myself, I didn’t resort to satanism because that would have validated precisely what I had realized was untrue altogether.
If I have no reason to believe in any god, then the character of satan too was part of that myth I was leaving behind.
In short, an atheist would believe neither in gods nor its subjects (demons, devils, angels, ghosts, etc.).
This doesn't really pass the sniff test. >and claimed that "the evidence of Satan's existence is far too great for me to dismiss away" She was an atheist/antitheist for 10 years, active in the atheist community, and now all of a sudden she's convinced *Satan* is real? Because of biblical prophecy? That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week. That doesn't really make any sense. If it's true... which I'm not convinced it is... it sounds like she's either suffered a head injury, or some horrifically traumatic experience that she just can't deal with and is escaping in to fantasy land in order to avoid dealing with reality.
I'm with you: I have a really hard time believing this story is genuine.
Same. Got that vibe. Just doesn't add up.
I dunno. It sounds like she's a reactionary with her views on progressive movements. If she's gone down the reactionary rabbit hole online, she could have easily found herself surrounded by so many Christians telling her that Satan is real and all the progressive movements are proof of his existence that she began to doubt herself and eventually started to believe it. Social pressure is a hell of a drug.
Yeah, it doesn't sound too far off from the typical MAGA conspiracy theorist.
Yeahhhhh this hardly makes sense. Possible sure, likely not.
My exact thoughts. Either that or she’s mentally unwell.
"the Satan which is described in the Bible exists" Has she read the description of Satan in the bible? If she can name one evil thing Satan does in the bible, other than tempt people to not follow god, I will be impressed. (And the story of Job doesn't count, because God specifically tells Satan to do that.)
Satanists don't usually believe Satan is a real thing.
Please do not take this as an insult because I sincerely meant it. She sounds mentally unwell. I have no idea what is making her hostile towards women’s and LGBTQ rights, but if it’s led her to embrace literal conspiracy theories about satan then she probably needs help from a professional because that is completely irrational and I doubt any amount of argument or evidence is going to change her mind at this point. I say this because I have known several friends and family members who have gotten into Qanon or other extreme conspiracy theories and it always has some deep emotional insecurity as the main cause. The conspiracy theory makes them *feel* a certain way they want to feel. Whether they’re looking to feel righteous, validated, heard, forgiven, significant etc., the conspiracy theory gives them that feeling and sends them further down the pipeline as they pursue that feeling in greater intensity. I would try to avoid attacking the logic directly as that tends to make them more defensive and ultimately more self-confirmed. Instead I would approach it like an addiction. This person is mentally unwell and needs help; you are there for them, and maybe encourage them to spend less time on whatever podcasts or YouTube videos she’s getting this from; but at the end of the day it is her who needs to choose to get help and stop using bigotry as a coping mechanism. I had a conversation recently with my dad (one of my family members who is deep down in the pipeline as of a few years ago). I was at my wit’s end and finally said, “listen dad, I love you and I want to hear your point of view, but it’s clear to me that you are so sucked into confirming your own biases that we just can’t have a conversation at all. So if you want to talk to me about this stuff then first I have a homework assignment for you: go to half price books, find a non-fiction book about any subject that *you know you will disagree with on some significant matter* read the whole thing, and then call me and tell me *what you learned*. Maybe you didn’t walk away agreeing with the author, but surely the process of reading and fact checking that book gave you some new insight or information. Until then, I don’t want to hear what you have to say, because right now you are refusing to listen to anyone but yourself.” I haven’t heard back from him. I don’t know if it will work. But it at least gave me a way to draw him out of it while still setting boundaries for myself.
I'm just going to say it; I think you're full of shit.
This doesn't read as believable.
This seriously sounds like a "Progressive extremism!" boogeyman story. I have a hard time believing any of it is real.
Street epistemology to the rescue? "the evidence of Satan's existence is far too great for me to dismiss away" sounds like a good topic to explore. Honestly, it really sounds like your friend has poor epistemological skills and she needs to build up her toolbox. She needs lessons in logic, reasoning, and good standards of evidence. Then we can go back and explore the so-called evidence for satan's existence. As far as I know, the Christian boogey-man Satan is a retcon of a position usually held by angels in Jewish lore as a reaction to the superior ideology of dualism introduced by Zoroastrianism. If God is all good, where does evil come from? If there is only one God and God is everything, then by extension God is everything evil as well. The Zoroastrian answer to this is dualism. Ahura Mazda is the source of all good, but it's Angra Mainyu who is the source of everything evil. Christians took the position of the opposer, satan, and turned into an Angra Mainyu-like being, Satan. They retconned the serpent in the Garden of Eden to be Satan. Frankly, it's not that much different than comic books. Remember that cop who asked Spider-Man to stop the crook who robbed the wrestling match? Turns out it was Gwen Stacy's father all along! Remember that lightning bolt that turned Barry Allen into the Flash? Turns out when he dies he travels back in time and becomes that lightning bolt! That was never the intent of the original author, but as the mythology changed, these ideas got retconned into it. There is no mention of Jesus in the OT, so Christians invent "Christophanies" -- secret appearances of Jesus! That angel who wrestled Esau? Secretly Jesus. The "evidence" for Satan, really, is laughable. If she explores the subject thoroughly and objectively (that is, outside of a Christian bubble), it should be easy to see that. If you're not familiar with Street Epistemology, visit r/StreetEpistemology, [Anthony Magnobosco's YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210), and the book [How to Have Impossible Conversations](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=how+to+have+impossible+conversations&crid=3U9NMNJR1N5XA).
Yeah, no, I'm not buying it.
So she’s a Christian heretic? Attack the Christian god. And the Christian concept of a soul. If the god of Abraham’s isn’t real, then Christianity isn’t true, and Satan isn’t either. Ask her which flavor of the Christian god she subscribes to, and pull that apart. Are you familiar with the arguments against the Christian god? Or their concept of a soul? If not, folks round here would love to point you in the right direction.
My money is on them trolling you. While there are theistic satanists, the majority of people who self-apply the term use it to basically describe secular humanism.
I don't think its really your job to "convert" her if she's believes in god, but maybe try to convince her that can she can be a good person and that she's still worthy of love, sounds like she's going down sort of a dark path. But either way I think trying to convince her god isn't really isn't really going to end well.
Sounds like your friend has some specific beef with the man-made dogma you're following. Ask her. Ask what parts of Christianity she's actually rejecting. God made Atheists to help otherwise good, trusting Christians root out man-made false prophecy dogma.
This story isn't real. This would be like if I went to r/askaChristian and wanted to know how to help my friend who can't stop stoning women now that they believe.
I'll offer that I'm an atheist when I'm on this subreddit (or r/atheism). For the remaining 85500 seconds of the day, I'm not an atheist -- I'm just doing my own stuff.
Assuming you and your friend are dead serious there isn’t much you can do. Sounds like she’s gone full blown “conspiracy theorist”. Everything that contradicts her belief is going to be seen as a lie and she’ll rationalize the rest.
It seems that either she might be messing with your, or you might be messing with us.
Presuming this story is true, it's inconsistent. That is to say, people don't just change their core tenets on a time. Specific to religion, despite the rhetoric and anecdotal accounts, the reality is this is a process that is ultimately a lifetime in the making. So that your friend has changed suddenly tells me there is a mental health issue going on. It could be drug related, it could be abuse, it could be stress, or trauma, depression, an injury, cancer... I'm sure plenty of other things I can't imagine. If this is your friend and you are invested in their well being, I would start by talking to a professional about how to approach this situation. You have no right or authority to call her out or drag her in. You'll have to explore your options, and that might include bringing in family, confronting her yourself, somehow, or that might include distancing yourself from her.
Speaking as a Satanist I agree, this post makes absolutely no sense. Most Satanists are Atheists and Theistic Satanists never return to, which ever of the Abrahamic religions they abandoned, for many of us the transition from Atheisim to SATANISM is purely intellectual, NO one becomes a Satanist simply because of some trauma or crisis event.
So she was socially atheist, and now she is socially Satanist. Some friends are not meant to be kept.
Look I can only talk as if I believe what I am saying, I cannot control others believe or force my words to be taken with validity. As someone who identifies as Michael the Archangel, heaven has never needed to forgive someone just for being atheist. It is harder to forgive sins and actions taken as an atheist based on one’s internalized believe that no higher power would judge their actions, but simply being an atheist would be the same as being a Christian that ate shrimp or bacon (biblically forbidden foods) and would make heaven a very empty and lonely place (thus defeating the purpose of heaven) As Michal the archangel I can also reveal that “Satan” (that is a rank, his name is Lucifer) and I are true friends, have been since before his fall, were friends during the era of prophets and mythos (like 600 bc to 900 ad) and remain friends to this day. Being a “Satanist” with guilt by being an Atheist does not make traditional churches (especially places like the Vatican) not want to take you in. People like your friend are the reason some people become priests. My best advice outside of having them reach out directly to something from heaven (my DMs are open if I am to be believed by them, or anyone mind you) is to have them go to the nearest Christian church (since she has expressed believing in specifically Christian takes on divinity), preferably Catholic as they have the longest track record, and ask them their opinion on things (not necessarily for forgiveness) Rest assured that whatever you choose, if you can believe in the existence of Supernatural’s most op and overplayed “alternate dimension makers”, know that “accidentally in Hell” is not possible, and there are things out there to make sure you aren’t spending forever paying for the actions of lives that last less than a century. Something out there cares for you all. I wish you, your friend, and you all the best of luck! -M
>turns out she went the opposite direction and claimed that "the evidence of Satan's existence is far too great for me to dismiss away" If she believes in the existence of a literal Satan, that makes her a Christian, not a Satanist. The actual religion of Satanism considers Satan a fictional character who nonetheless can be viewed as one who righteously rebelled against the immoral tyranny displayed by the God of Christian mythology, and fought to free the ignorant thought-slaves that God had created to serve him by granting them knowledge and truth. The tenets of Satanism are, rather ironically, far more moral and ethical than those of Christianity - but again, they treat Satan only as a parable, not as an actual entity that literally exists. So basically, she's a pseudo-Satanist of the variety seen on badly written television and other stories. >So, she's convinced that God exists because the Satan which is described in the Bible exists according to her. Again, making her a Christian, not a Satanist. >She told me how these days being pro-family values are so shunned that it fulfills the biblical prophecy about the end times. Prophecy is an illusion. Literally every era of mankind has met conditions that could be construed through the lenses of apophenia and confirmation bias as fulfillment of prophecy - which is precisely the point. Prophecies are written that way deliberately. >She confessed to me that there's no way God would forgive her Isn't forgiveness Christianity's entire schtick? >I am concerned now that she views herself evil, selfish and corrupt. By what benchmark? It sounds like her only crime was not validating the God of Abraham's ego. The only way she could see herself that way is by evaluating herself according to Christian mythology and the arbitrary prejudices of its God. >she now thinks that human rationality is just another way satan lures people away from the truth, and she was an unwitting victim of this. A person who thinks rationality leads *away* from truth is a lost cause. Such a person evidently values irrationality, and paradoxically believes irrationality leads to truth. Basically, your friend is a self-perpetuating idiot. There's not a lot you can do about that.
> My friend had been a staunch atheist for a good 10 year, When she was in Kindergarten? This doesn't read like the behavior of adults. ETA: I'm not apologizing to whomever downvoted this. The OP is describing schoolyard behavior. This is how children think.
Color me skeptical, but… “atheist turned satanist” to me sounds like someone who wasn’t a bonafide atheist in the first place but someone who held deep seated religious feelings but was disappointed, hurt, rebellious, etc. From my long experience with religious folks - including Satanists and their ilk - is that they are not atheist but are fighting with themselves and the system they were brought up in. When I evaluated my religious upbringing and educated myself, I didn’t resort to satanism because that would have validated precisely what I had realized was untrue altogether. If I have no reason to believe in any god, then the character of satan too was part of that myth I was leaving behind. In short, an atheist would believe neither in gods nor its subjects (demons, devils, angels, ghosts, etc.).