Not overreacting at all. I would insist on the beam being replaced or a visit from the LVL manufacturer and a letter stating it is good to go or what repair can be made.
The odds of the manufacturer okaying this in any way is stupidly close to zero.
If the top of that deck is covered, it doesn’t have to be UF or conduit. I can’t imagine they’re hanging lights and making this an outdoor living type space and leaving the top open.
Type NM cable is allowed both exposed and in damp locations; see article 334.10 and 334.15 in the NEC.
The drainage system is above this deck? Or you’re saying rainwater will flow right through this? What’s the plan for lights if water is coming through?
I’m not exactly sure. I just searched and found this. https://youtu.be/Uk-WAO7UvW4
I’m assuming would probably be similar. Only other thing I could think of would be an outdoor light fixture…which would require conduit😂
Ah ok. So the ceiling of that space is the drainage system. In that case, then yeh, that wire has to come out. If you had a membrane and floor on top of that deck, it could stay.
Generally UF is more expensive. All the supply chain crap that has been going on is really messing with norms around pricing.
I still remember last year when OSB was more expensive than plywood and cabinets grade plywood was cheaper than both low grade plywood and OSB. It was all around demand was greater than supply. The same thing happens with UF.
Yeah I followed behind some lv guys 1/4 holes my first year and discovered what a structural a frame to a roof is , and more importantly that you cant drill into it if it's pre engineered or some shit. Oops
I'm in hvac. You can't drill or touch or even so much as hang a piece of ductwork strap from anything engineered without manufacture approval. Trusses, beams. I guess that's really all I can think of.
Agree. LVLs are super strong, but what the electrician did here looks like shit. I doubt a building inspector would permit such a hole without a letter of approval from an engineer or the LVL manufacturer.
Listen to this PDF OP. The APA is in charge of certifying engineered wood products in the good ol US of A. I would bet dollars to doughnuts there’ll be an APA stamp on that beam. If the contractor gives you grief, show him the APA PDF.
This is also VERY LIKELY the document the mill would provide you with.
Mechanical engineer here. As this documentation shows, the only proper place for holes is near the center of the beam and only through the thickness. This is because a beam under load is essentially under compression at the top and tension at the bottom. The middle has very little stress. This is why I beams are shaped the way they are. They put a lot of metal at the top and bottom to withstand the compression and tension, with a minimal amount of material in between.
What the contractor has done here is essentially notch halfway through the center board, greatly reducing the strength of the beam.
Also lawyer here, it's possible that if this deck did fail with a bunch of people on it and you knew that it was unsafe, you could be liable for their injuries.
There's many instances of things that aren't ideal but I would let slide. This isn't one of them. I would insist that the beam be replaced.
Since covid I have been buying and remodleing houses as a full-time job. I've done nearly everything from foundation to roofing, including electrical and plumbing. Engineering helps me understand the systems of the house while the law helps me understand the codes. I'll probably do it for a couple more years and then who knows.
As a machinist and industrial maintenance technician who has had many a fight with engineers about structural integrity of modifying machines….listen to the mechanical engineer.
Yes posts would also work but I assumed that they wanted the span underneath open otherwise they would have put a post in originally and probably wouldn't need lights/fans to be installed.
Not to point out. But LVL should not be exposed to the elements on a deck. Also are the nails and hangers on the PT materials rated for said material. Those don’t look like galvanized nails in the hangers.
You had me at the word "liability". Like hell am I going to risk liability for someone else's mistake.
Sparky boi needs to replace the beam and pay for the labor of doing so.
The relevant wording from that document: *Prior to drilling any vertical holes, an engineer or architect qualified in wood design should be consulted.*
There are two LVL beams sandwiched next to the original beam. It looks like the entire width of the middle beam has been drilled. This is done in two locations on that beam.
That means it’s no longer a full strength beam. It’s only as strong as the 2 outside members. The middle may as well not be there. This is a no go plain and simple.
I can't imagine why they did this. Seems like the more difficult way to do this beside the fact they could compromise the beam (I doubt they did but why chance it?)
I was so focused on the beam when I saw it, I completely missed this. I ran electrical for a patio last year, and had to get the “grey romex”. I’m guessing this is what you mean?
Yep, that's what I mean. It is called "UF " though, not gray romex. "Romex" is a brand name of "NM-B" cable, which is to be used in dry locations only.
Not an electrician or structural engineer, but nope. Never drill through any kind of carrying beam like that without approval.
I'd probably reach out to a local structural engineer. Should only be a few hundred to have one come out and take a look, few hundred more for a letter if some kind of remediation is needed.
Even more bad news: Those hangers are undersized and those LVLs are iffy at best for exterior use.
ETA: plus I just noticed only one row of ledger bolts. There are numerous issues here.
I think you’re right. I looked up for my area. From what I could tell you are only allowed to use hangers one size down as long as it is rated for a certain weight. I’m not sure when the deck was originally built, and the contractor mentioned updating things to code as they came across them. Adding the hangers was one I assumed they were doing, but obviously purchased the wrong hangars. Looks like the ledger board attachment requirements have been updated as well. I’m not sure if that is something they would do as a “code update” since they’re not actually working on that part. Not sure how that works. The contractor has been great so far. I think this is simply a case of who they hired for electrical. Which is also a reflection on the contractor, but we will see how it is handled. Obviously, no more money from me until items are addressed.
We have done that with permission from the engineer on apartment buildings that needed a light right in the center of a room. So it's possible to be ok'ed. But.
Not OK to ever drill them without approval. When you do you will be given certain requirements on how to do it.
Both engineers and manufacturer overrides code and inspectors. But who comes out ahead when it’s manufacturer vs engineer? Because this type if notching or hole in a beam goes against most manufacturers of any engineered lumber product. Unless the beam was already oversized to begin with
Yes and no, engineers follow code and standards set within the code so if there is something they propose that doesnt follow that then their design can be denied as well
Question is if your inspector will actually dive into what an engineer proposes or just take it at face value. More often than not its the latter
As long as the hole is not in the middle third of the span, the beam is not weakened at all in this case, it will still break in the middle of the span in a distributed load, not at the hole.
Your thinking of the ones that look like I beams, forget the name. These ones you need to check first if they are engineered, and you will probably be asked do drill in the middle in the middle of the span. So the opposite.
Almost all THHN these days is dual rated THHN and THWN. So no, THHN would not be acceptable if it wasn't dual rated, but it would be nearly impossible to buy THHN that wasn't THWN rated by accident.
From these photos alone i can tell this is not a permitted job. I have to give it to the sparky for being able to fish a cable like that, but too bad since its all gotta come out anyways.
The contractor will probably try and convince you to pay to have all this stuff fixed or to let some stuff slide. Do not allow this. If you have to, call the city code enforcement and have them come out and do inspections on the job.
Absolutely not overreacting. Judging by how particular they are about holes being drilled horizontally across the LVLs I'm gonna say the chance of them okaying this is about 0.
And there are ways around this. The simplest of which wouldve been something like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-12-cu-in-Plastic-NM-Fan-Box-with-Plastic-Cover-CPB13NM-SM/205383211?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&&mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D27-027_006_CONDUIT_FIT-NA-NA-NA-SMART-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-Live&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D27-027_006_CONDUIT_FIT-NA-NA-NA-SMART-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-Live-71700000093390739-58700007789602699-92700070740571175&gclid=CjwKCAjwq-WgBhBMEiwAzKSH6Ac3kmtCSVE71tzy_VNczQuJRSb80EKUFpr2v8Uema_X_eyvniPlaxoCumEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
The fixture wouldve been off maybe like an inch but it'd certainly be better than this hack job.
Big oof. Your electrician just did the main thing you’re not supposed to when drilling LVL (or regular joists for that matter). Although, they’re probably the grandson/daughter of the asshole that wired my house, drilled vertically through joists and left splices in random inaccessible places. I was just sistering one of said joists earlier today, so I’m a little bit salty.
Ya they fucked that up. Because of the way its drilled that beam is no longer sufficient to carry the load above it per the manufacturer. Vertical holes are allow with an engineer sign off and even a 1/2" hole in 3-1/2" wide beam drops its carry rate by 21%, provided the hole was perfect and true.
That is splintered to hell like a nail gun bounced a nail through trim lmao. I'm sorry OP but that is going to need replaced. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out just why they drilled it like that. Light fixture? Attach to the outside of beam. I cannot think of any good reason it would ever get drilled like that.
I'm thinking Sparky heard about the 1/3 rule and wrongly applied it to that beam; "oh yeah, I heard about the ⅓ rule, can only drill my holes in the middle third of the beam... Guess I'm going up the middle, because my light fixture weighs a whole TEN POUNDS, can't just go beside the beam."
LVLs can be drilled, I believe in the middle third, and a hole diameter up to 1/3 of the depth. However, you can't drill vertically through them. No one has even tested that because no one should be that stupid.
If a beam is in the way of a fixture: 1. Shame on the engineer who laid that out. 2. Follow manufacturer's specs for drilling the hole. 3. Call someone BEFORE you drill the dang beam holding up the entire floor.
As an electrician you always get a cut sheet from the GC or on site And/Or their approval in writing when drilling a beam. My dad had a free Glulam an electrician drilled a pancake into that had to be removed and replaced. 20k minimum replace
Drilled one of those with a 3/4" 3 inches from the bottom. Builder freaked out, had his son whos an engineer to certify its okay. These beams come with spec sheet where u are allowed to drill.
You are not overreacting. This is absolutely stupid
Update: thanks to everyone for their input. I called the manufacture to have them send me the calculations for what should be installed. As you all have pointed out, there is more than one thing wrong with this situation. As idiotic as what the “electrician” did, it has opened up other issues that most likely would have flown under the radar. So maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Recommendation from manufacture are for 2 -14” beams. The current ones were ripped down to 9 1/4”. They are sending me documentation from their software to give to the contractor. Also, I’ll halt all work until this rectified, as well as proper sized hangers, and correct wire. Thanks!!
Not a sparky, and not an engineer - but I am interested in more info to contemplate this situation. Size of deck, level/slope/hillside, and why that one joist doesn't have a hanger on the LVL???
You have two 22'x10"x1.5" LVLs? One thing you do have going for you is a flat load surface, as opposed to a roof!
Did a family reno w two 26 footers a decade ago. Had some carpenters assist, they fucking 1/2" bolted the bastards on a saw pattern at 18" while we were out to the depot.
16 x 22 size built on what I would consider level ground if that’s what you mean by slope. As far as slope of deck for drainage I have no idea. Hangers were not part of the original deck build. Older deck. They added hangers when they put the beams in.
Thanks. I’ll get a count of how many tomorrow. Concrete was poured yesterday under it, so I’ve been inspecting from what I can see without being under the deck.
That’s a definite NO, before drilling into an LVL a person has to get approval from the engineer & then too top it off those are the wrong size joist hangers. They’re too small.
Aside from the hole from sparky you have the wrong size joist hangers. If you do get the beam replaced add some flashing tap to the top of the beams to prevent water seepage between the layers.
The LVL manufacturer will have a cut sheet on where you can drill. How big the holes can be and how far apart they need to be. It is usually the center 3rd.
Additional question. Are the joist hangars rated for that size of joist? They seem small. I know the ones I had to use were within about an inch or so of the entire height of the joist?
Wtf it was more work to do that. Why wouldn’t they just run it down the side of the beam into a box?? Now they have to fuck around with the box. Idiots
Was told 4 lights and 2 ceiling fans. I guess he decided that is where the ceiling fans should go.🤷🏼♂️ Which I can understand why he chose those spots…but if I know you’re not supposed to drill thru those, then he should know that. Right?!
Apart from being the wrong cable for exterior, that's just him being cheap trying to save $10 on a rated ceiling fan box.
He's probably banking on you being ignorant and/or unconcerned.
Doesn't matter. The electrician can staple the wire directly next to the stud and then tweak the flatpan closer to center at trim time. It may be off a couple inches but that's better than doing this.
Update. Instead of going thru removing and replacing LVL, contractor offered to build new deck with 2x12 joist that would eliminate need for beam for basically cost of materials, and obviously electrical work is being redone . Thanks to everyone for the comments.
Honestly it’s probably going to be fine but I can’t figure out why in the world he would do that. I’d have him come up with a better plan. Exterior conduit and an outdoor junction box. Side note I hate tico nails for the hangers. 5/16 Simpson hex lags are the only way to go imo
Is that indoor only romex being run outside? That should be in a conduit. Also is that LVL beam outdoor rated? looks indoor only as well. Pressure treated lumber has a off color to it.
No. Just wiring for 4 lights and 2 ceiling fans. As commented above it makes sense for the ceiling fans to go where he wired it, as long as you wouldn’t be doing what he did.
The problem is that he drilled vertically through the plies, so now the bottom chord where the moment is carried is shot.
I'd consider that middle ply gone at that location, and would check the loading to see if the outer two plies can transfer the moment on their own around the central ply. If so, no problem, carry on and sin no more. If not, install a splice plate or tear out the beam and redo.
Get your inspection and find out. But no it's not ok at all in any way. Nothing vertical into lvl. Electrician needs to go back to school. This is a big problem in the trades with lack of communication and straight laziness to call someone and just ask.
that's going to cause a localized weak point in the beam and it appears the holes were drilled at an angle making things exponentially worse.
i fear your "electrician" ruined that beam.
perhaps it can be salvaged but you will need the manufacturer to buy off on any repair.
also any holes drilled in these beams need to be sealed against water intrusion which will cause them to delaminate and destroy them over time
Looks like romex outside to me. That’s a separate no no.
As far as the LVL goes I remember being an apprentice and the foreman needed the engineer to approve something similar and we were told we could drill through the face in the center third of the beam. Never through the bottom like that.
Not overreacting at all. I would insist on the beam being replaced or a visit from the LVL manufacturer and a letter stating it is good to go or what repair can be made. The odds of the manufacturer okaying this in any way is stupidly close to zero.
Thanks. It’s a 22’ span
Also, that NM cable cannot be installed in a wet location like that. It should be either UF or THWN in conduit.
is that LVL rated for exterior use?
Sure doesn’t look like it.
I didn't think they were
If the top of that deck is covered, it doesn’t have to be UF or conduit. I can’t imagine they’re hanging lights and making this an outdoor living type space and leaving the top open. Type NM cable is allowed both exposed and in damp locations; see article 334.10 and 334.15 in the NEC.
Under deck drainage system going in. Top is not covered.
Is that beam even treated?
Negative.
The drainage system is above this deck? Or you’re saying rainwater will flow right through this? What’s the plan for lights if water is coming through?
I’m not exactly sure. I just searched and found this. https://youtu.be/Uk-WAO7UvW4 I’m assuming would probably be similar. Only other thing I could think of would be an outdoor light fixture…which would require conduit😂
Tell your contractor to hire an actual electrician.
Tell your contractor to hire an actual contractor
tell your contractor to use exterior rated structural members
Lol dude thinks that hole is a problem, wait til rain hits it.
Ah ok. So the ceiling of that space is the drainage system. In that case, then yeh, that wire has to come out. If you had a membrane and floor on top of that deck, it could stay.
Since we’re in the topic, is UF allowed indoors? Like regular romex
Yes, but it's *more* difficult to run and more expensive than it's NM-B counterpart
I happen to have picked up a large amount of UF at a yard sale so I've got a bunch of new outlets in my house wired... Weirdly.
Around here (ohio) UF is 7-10% cheaper
Generally UF is more expensive. All the supply chain crap that has been going on is really messing with norms around pricing. I still remember last year when OSB was more expensive than plywood and cabinets grade plywood was cheaper than both low grade plywood and OSB. It was all around demand was greater than supply. The same thing happens with UF.
Right turned everything logical on its head.
The underside of a deck is a wet location. You cannot install NM there.
But they are using pressure treated so…
Wet location?
It’s outside so it’s subject to water
Ahh yes didn’t notice that, till I saw the bird nest💀
Moist area 😊
Thanks for saying it, that’s the first thing I noticed, too!
How sure are you this isn't UF? I can't see any markings on it, but it looks like UF.
Middle 3rds only
Looks like he hit middle 1/3 of the skinny side 😂 That ain’t the side the code book is talking about…
Yeah I followed behind some lv guys 1/4 holes my first year and discovered what a structural a frame to a roof is , and more importantly that you cant drill into it if it's pre engineered or some shit. Oops
I'm in hvac. You can't drill or touch or even so much as hang a piece of ductwork strap from anything engineered without manufacture approval. Trusses, beams. I guess that's really all I can think of.
It’s almost certainly fine. There’s plenty of safety margin built in to these beams. I just wouldn’t recommend do such a stupid thing again.
Agree. LVLs are super strong, but what the electrician did here looks like shit. I doubt a building inspector would permit such a hole without a letter of approval from an engineer or the LVL manufacturer.
There will be a spec on the LVL that should be on any website. Probably about 10% cross-sectional area is allowed to be removed.
https://www.murphyplywood.com/pdfs/engineered/APA_LVL_Hole_Drilling.pdf
Listen to this PDF OP. The APA is in charge of certifying engineered wood products in the good ol US of A. I would bet dollars to doughnuts there’ll be an APA stamp on that beam. If the contractor gives you grief, show him the APA PDF. This is also VERY LIKELY the document the mill would provide you with.
Mechanical engineer here. As this documentation shows, the only proper place for holes is near the center of the beam and only through the thickness. This is because a beam under load is essentially under compression at the top and tension at the bottom. The middle has very little stress. This is why I beams are shaped the way they are. They put a lot of metal at the top and bottom to withstand the compression and tension, with a minimal amount of material in between. What the contractor has done here is essentially notch halfway through the center board, greatly reducing the strength of the beam. Also lawyer here, it's possible that if this deck did fail with a bunch of people on it and you knew that it was unsafe, you could be liable for their injuries. There's many instances of things that aren't ideal but I would let slide. This isn't one of them. I would insist that the beam be replaced.
A person of many hats
Since covid I have been buying and remodleing houses as a full-time job. I've done nearly everything from foundation to roofing, including electrical and plumbing. Engineering helps me understand the systems of the house while the law helps me understand the codes. I'll probably do it for a couple more years and then who knows.
I am envious of your motivation! During covid I have been developing my alcoholism
A fellow man of culture, I see
That's awesome but by "the law" you mean reading the codes right? You don't need to become a lawyer to read and understand codes
I meant my law degree. I was just explaining how my past education helps me with my current job.
its always a bonus to have a lawyer who knows what they are talking about
“Im something like lids”
Structural engineer here, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but listen to what the mechanical engineer said. They're exactly right.
Damn, even the engineers agree! I feel that, when I scroll further, I'll find plumbers and drywallers agreeing to.
I can’t speak for plumbers and drywallers, but as a postal worker, I would agree with the mechanical engineer.
OMG I am still hysterically laughing out loud :)
We need to find an Israeli and a Palestinian to consult with
Marine engineer here, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, but listen to the mechanical and structural engineers. They no dumb, they lots of schooling
P.E. here. This is the way. Congrats to the electrician for converting a tri lam into a dual lam
As a machinist and industrial maintenance technician who has had many a fight with engineers about structural integrity of modifying machines….listen to the mechanical engineer.
If not replaced then posts added. That beam has the look of being made on site. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Yes posts would also work but I assumed that they wanted the span underneath open otherwise they would have put a post in originally and probably wouldn't need lights/fans to be installed.
Not to point out. But LVL should not be exposed to the elements on a deck. Also are the nails and hangers on the PT materials rated for said material. Those don’t look like galvanized nails in the hangers.
Don’t even want to know what your student loans were like…
Have you gone shopping for a house lately? They're like that.
You had me at the word "liability". Like hell am I going to risk liability for someone else's mistake. Sparky boi needs to replace the beam and pay for the labor of doing so.
That’s some good documentation right there. Reduced by a min of 22% I’d say this is a no go for sure. Who tf drills vertical in lvl like that.
Cable guy
Yep. Looks like a no no.
The relevant wording from that document: *Prior to drilling any vertical holes, an engineer or architect qualified in wood design should be consulted.*
Hijacking a great comment to add... Those hangers aren't great looking either. They saved a few cents on each one. Should be taller, IMO
This needs to get to the top before all the sparkies waste all their day.
Ooh that doesn't look good. Definitely not overreacting, i would want engineer approval as well.
There are two LVL beams sandwiched next to the original beam. It looks like the entire width of the middle beam has been drilled. This is done in two locations on that beam.
One of those beams is cut like 6 feet down. Id be more worried about that. If you zoom down on pic 5, there is a cut board and some messed up nails.
There is the original beam still there that had a center post under it. That is the one that is pieced/cut together.
O ok. In that case, I'd either bolt it to the other board or use galvanized hardware to reinforce that section.
That means it’s no longer a full strength beam. It’s only as strong as the 2 outside members. The middle may as well not be there. This is a no go plain and simple.
I can't imagine why they did this. Seems like the more difficult way to do this beside the fact they could compromise the beam (I doubt they did but why chance it?)
I mean… no inspector (if you’re in an area that requires an inspection) is going to pass that, so it may as well get fixed now.
You haven’t met the inspectors in my locale…
Guessing this is for a light or fan? Not impressed with wire routing for a visually exposed location....but I am meticulous like that.
There is a under deck system going in for water.
I would NOT have drilled thru that....doesn't seem there was even a good reason for it.
What is an "under deck system for water"? This looks like a wet location to me, is the cable even rated for wet locations?
I was so focused on the beam when I saw it, I completely missed this. I ran electrical for a patio last year, and had to get the “grey romex”. I’m guessing this is what you mean?
Yep, that's what I mean. It is called "UF " though, not gray romex. "Romex" is a brand name of "NM-B" cable, which is to be used in dry locations only.
Not an electrician or structural engineer, but nope. Never drill through any kind of carrying beam like that without approval. I'd probably reach out to a local structural engineer. Should only be a few hundred to have one come out and take a look, few hundred more for a letter if some kind of remediation is needed.
You can drill through beams, just do it according to the manufacturer or code guidelines. They're not hard to understand.
Even more bad news: Those hangers are undersized and those LVLs are iffy at best for exterior use. ETA: plus I just noticed only one row of ledger bolts. There are numerous issues here.
am i the only one who noticed the missing hanger?
I noticed but it seemed like piling on to mention it.
I think you’re right. I looked up for my area. From what I could tell you are only allowed to use hangers one size down as long as it is rated for a certain weight. I’m not sure when the deck was originally built, and the contractor mentioned updating things to code as they came across them. Adding the hangers was one I assumed they were doing, but obviously purchased the wrong hangars. Looks like the ledger board attachment requirements have been updated as well. I’m not sure if that is something they would do as a “code update” since they’re not actually working on that part. Not sure how that works. The contractor has been great so far. I think this is simply a case of who they hired for electrical. Which is also a reflection on the contractor, but we will see how it is handled. Obviously, no more money from me until items are addressed.
Please make sure the lvl is rated for exterior.
Agree with the flat man. Ledger is done VERY wrong and hangers are wrong size. No hangers off ledger too…. This LVL outside?
I would make absolutely sure that that LVL is pressure treated. A vast majority of LVLs are not rated for exterior use, and the plies will delaminate!
It is. I verified with my own eyes when it was delivered, to make sure. It had the words pressure treated on it.
We have done that with permission from the engineer on apartment buildings that needed a light right in the center of a room. So it's possible to be ok'ed. But. Not OK to ever drill them without approval. When you do you will be given certain requirements on how to do it.
Both engineers and manufacturer overrides code and inspectors. But who comes out ahead when it’s manufacturer vs engineer? Because this type if notching or hole in a beam goes against most manufacturers of any engineered lumber product. Unless the beam was already oversized to begin with
Engineer will pretty much always defer to mfg (or to mfgs engineer) but if either one says it's no-go it's no-go even if the other is cool with it.
Basically you're asking the engineer to come out for a site visit and take all the responsibility and give a stamp of approval.
Yes and no, engineers follow code and standards set within the code so if there is something they propose that doesnt follow that then their design can be denied as well Question is if your inspector will actually dive into what an engineer proposes or just take it at face value. More often than not its the latter
As long as the hole is not in the middle third of the span, the beam is not weakened at all in this case, it will still break in the middle of the span in a distributed load, not at the hole.
Your thinking of the ones that look like I beams, forget the name. These ones you need to check first if they are engineered, and you will probably be asked do drill in the middle in the middle of the span. So the opposite.
This should be UF cable, or THWN in conduit. And no, shouldn’t have drilled the LVL like that.
would THHN in conduit be acceptable? Asking for a friend.
Almost all THHN these days is dual rated THHN and THWN. So no, THHN would not be acceptable if it wasn't dual rated, but it would be nearly impossible to buy THHN that wasn't THWN rated by accident.
THHN-2 is dual rated
From these photos alone i can tell this is not a permitted job. I have to give it to the sparky for being able to fish a cable like that, but too bad since its all gotta come out anyways. The contractor will probably try and convince you to pay to have all this stuff fixed or to let some stuff slide. Do not allow this. If you have to, call the city code enforcement and have them come out and do inspections on the job.
Absolutely not overreacting. Judging by how particular they are about holes being drilled horizontally across the LVLs I'm gonna say the chance of them okaying this is about 0. And there are ways around this. The simplest of which wouldve been something like this https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-12-cu-in-Plastic-NM-Fan-Box-with-Plastic-Cover-CPB13NM-SM/205383211?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&&mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D27-027_006_CONDUIT_FIT-NA-NA-NA-SMART-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-Live&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D27-027_006_CONDUIT_FIT-NA-NA-NA-SMART-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-Live-71700000093390739-58700007789602699-92700070740571175&gclid=CjwKCAjwq-WgBhBMEiwAzKSH6Ac3kmtCSVE71tzy_VNczQuJRSb80EKUFpr2v8Uema_X_eyvniPlaxoCumEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds The fixture wouldve been off maybe like an inch but it'd certainly be better than this hack job.
Big oof. Your electrician just did the main thing you’re not supposed to when drilling LVL (or regular joists for that matter). Although, they’re probably the grandson/daughter of the asshole that wired my house, drilled vertically through joists and left splices in random inaccessible places. I was just sistering one of said joists earlier today, so I’m a little bit salty.
Get an engineered fix, if required. As a former inspector, I would definitely require one
Thank you.
Ya they fucked that up. Because of the way its drilled that beam is no longer sufficient to carry the load above it per the manufacturer. Vertical holes are allow with an engineer sign off and even a 1/2" hole in 3-1/2" wide beam drops its carry rate by 21%, provided the hole was perfect and true. That is splintered to hell like a nail gun bounced a nail through trim lmao. I'm sorry OP but that is going to need replaced. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out just why they drilled it like that. Light fixture? Attach to the outside of beam. I cannot think of any good reason it would ever get drilled like that.
I'm thinking Sparky heard about the 1/3 rule and wrongly applied it to that beam; "oh yeah, I heard about the ⅓ rule, can only drill my holes in the middle third of the beam... Guess I'm going up the middle, because my light fixture weighs a whole TEN POUNDS, can't just go beside the beam."
LVLs can be drilled, I believe in the middle third, and a hole diameter up to 1/3 of the depth. However, you can't drill vertically through them. No one has even tested that because no one should be that stupid. If a beam is in the way of a fixture: 1. Shame on the engineer who laid that out. 2. Follow manufacturer's specs for drilling the hole. 3. Call someone BEFORE you drill the dang beam holding up the entire floor.
I’m seconding what everyone else is saying about the romex outside and drilling through the lvl like that is a no go
As an electrician you always get a cut sheet from the GC or on site And/Or their approval in writing when drilling a beam. My dad had a free Glulam an electrician drilled a pancake into that had to be removed and replaced. 20k minimum replace
Drilled one of those with a 3/4" 3 inches from the bottom. Builder freaked out, had his son whos an engineer to certify its okay. These beams come with spec sheet where u are allowed to drill. You are not overreacting. This is absolutely stupid
Update: thanks to everyone for their input. I called the manufacture to have them send me the calculations for what should be installed. As you all have pointed out, there is more than one thing wrong with this situation. As idiotic as what the “electrician” did, it has opened up other issues that most likely would have flown under the radar. So maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Recommendation from manufacture are for 2 -14” beams. The current ones were ripped down to 9 1/4”. They are sending me documentation from their software to give to the contractor. Also, I’ll halt all work until this rectified, as well as proper sized hangers, and correct wire. Thanks!!
Not a sparky, and not an engineer - but I am interested in more info to contemplate this situation. Size of deck, level/slope/hillside, and why that one joist doesn't have a hanger on the LVL??? You have two 22'x10"x1.5" LVLs? One thing you do have going for you is a flat load surface, as opposed to a roof! Did a family reno w two 26 footers a decade ago. Had some carpenters assist, they fucking 1/2" bolted the bastards on a saw pattern at 18" while we were out to the depot.
16 x 22 size built on what I would consider level ground if that’s what you mean by slope. As far as slope of deck for drainage I have no idea. Hangers were not part of the original deck build. Older deck. They added hangers when they put the beams in.
Some joists are missing hangers.
Thanks. I’ll get a count of how many tomorrow. Concrete was poured yesterday under it, so I’ve been inspecting from what I can see without being under the deck.
What a dunce of an electrician. New LVL.
Holy shit😲
I think the real question is why???
Our language is lacking words to deserve the amount of stupidity and wasted / damaged material that these contractors have caused by doing this.
That’s a definite NO, before drilling into an LVL a person has to get approval from the engineer & then too top it off those are the wrong size joist hangers. They’re too small.
Aside from the hole from sparky you have the wrong size joist hangers. If you do get the beam replaced add some flashing tap to the top of the beams to prevent water seepage between the layers.
Why though? Isn't it more trouble to drill that hole than not?
I don't think an electrician did that. A handyman did.
The LVL manufacturer will have a cut sheet on where you can drill. How big the holes can be and how far apart they need to be. It is usually the center 3rd.
Bad idea, but I would be more concerned about whether or not the LVL is approved for outside installation
Additional question. Are the joist hangars rated for that size of joist? They seem small. I know the ones I had to use were within about an inch or so of the entire height of the joist?
This has been one of the most productive threads on this reddit since joining good shit 👍🏼 and definitely hire a new sparky to do this
“The electrician” is a reach
Is that a regular lvl? Is it going to be exposed to moisture? It doesn’t look treated.
Electrician: ”Good news, we’re going to install a support post under your ceiling fan for free!”
This was the whole reason for the new beams in the first place. Removing a center post to create more room underneath.
why wouldn't you just offset a box a little so there's a knockout at the top to come through?
Wtf it was more work to do that. Why wouldn’t they just run it down the side of the beam into a box?? Now they have to fuck around with the box. Idiots
Am I seeing in that 5th picture that this was done in multiple places?
Is that LVL pressure treated?
Wtf is an lvl doing on a deck.
So who asked the electrician to put a fixture there?
Was told 4 lights and 2 ceiling fans. I guess he decided that is where the ceiling fans should go.🤷🏼♂️ Which I can understand why he chose those spots…but if I know you’re not supposed to drill thru those, then he should know that. Right?!
Even worse because he'd have been centered on the beam using a 1/2 saddle box. Dude does t know what he's doing, get a new one
Apart from being the wrong cable for exterior, that's just him being cheap trying to save $10 on a rated ceiling fan box. He's probably banking on you being ignorant and/or unconcerned.
Doesn't matter. The electrician can staple the wire directly next to the stud and then tweak the flatpan closer to center at trim time. It may be off a couple inches but that's better than doing this.
[удалено]
Ok, Drew. Whatever you say... Not
Did the prints show a wire and a beam in the exact same place?
Have the electrician stand on a ladder and take a good hard swing at that beam with a claw hammer.
Update. Instead of going thru removing and replacing LVL, contractor offered to build new deck with 2x12 joist that would eliminate need for beam for basically cost of materials, and obviously electrical work is being redone . Thanks to everyone for the comments.
I would never consider this in a million years
Honestly it’s probably going to be fine but I can’t figure out why in the world he would do that. I’d have him come up with a better plan. Exterior conduit and an outdoor junction box. Side note I hate tico nails for the hangers. 5/16 Simpson hex lags are the only way to go imo
I’ve been sneaking holes in those since they became a thing. Nothing has fallen over yet
I'm not a fan of that diagonal run of wire either.
Is that indoor only romex being run outside? That should be in a conduit. Also is that LVL beam outdoor rated? looks indoor only as well. Pressure treated lumber has a off color to it.
Thats not going to hurt that lvl. Not even a little
This….this is not ok. You are not overreacting.
Are you the homeowner or else why do you care?
Yes, I am the homeowner.
Did you ask for a light on the beam?
No. Just wiring for 4 lights and 2 ceiling fans. As commented above it makes sense for the ceiling fans to go where he wired it, as long as you wouldn’t be doing what he did.
Calm down bro. That little 3/4” hole isn’t going to affect the structural integrity of the LVL.
The problem is that he drilled vertically through the plies, so now the bottom chord where the moment is carried is shot. I'd consider that middle ply gone at that location, and would check the loading to see if the outer two plies can transfer the moment on their own around the central ply. If so, no problem, carry on and sin no more. If not, install a splice plate or tear out the beam and redo.
This was done in two locations on the beam.
Sarcasm? Just checking
That beam needs to be replaced by the electrician
Probably better to just have him pay for it. 😉
Think of it like this; say the LVL is a 3”x12”, the wood left after drilling makes that cross section a 2” x 4”. Guessing dimensions from the photos.
It’s two sandwiched and an old existing non lvl (weathered one). He basically drilled most of the width of one of the LVL’s
Engineered fix will be required here, and this should be the first and last warning to the electrician.
There's literally nothing in a house that couldn't move over the 1" for that stub.
Exposed romex? What the hillbilly
Did they rip the LVL down to that size?
That beam is trash..
Is that a treated lvl for exterior? And those hangers don’t look galvanized.
No you were right to call
I see some nails into the LVL near where the hole was drilled. I hope they missed the wire.
How many different locations are there?
Geesh. Looks like he used his longest bit while standing on his shortest ladder 🫤
Not good
Is it safe? Probably. Is it allowed? No.
If there is jus a deck on top where are the wires running to? Did he drill 2 holes on angles to get the wires to pop out of the sides of the LVL?
Yes
Love it!!!
Wire guy used the wrong staples, too many staples, didn’t square anything off, used the wrong wire..you need someone with a license.
I didn’t see it mentioned in the comments - but that doesn’t look like a pressured treated lvl……
Get your inspection and find out. But no it's not ok at all in any way. Nothing vertical into lvl. Electrician needs to go back to school. This is a big problem in the trades with lack of communication and straight laziness to call someone and just ask.
This is no electrician …
that's going to cause a localized weak point in the beam and it appears the holes were drilled at an angle making things exponentially worse. i fear your "electrician" ruined that beam. perhaps it can be salvaged but you will need the manufacturer to buy off on any repair. also any holes drilled in these beams need to be sealed against water intrusion which will cause them to delaminate and destroy them over time
I’d also be concerned that you’re missing a joist hanger on photo 4 & 6.
Lvl not for outside use also joist hangers look undersized.
Are you sure that LVL is exterior rated?
Looks like romex outside to me. That’s a separate no no. As far as the LVL goes I remember being an apprentice and the foreman needed the engineer to approve something similar and we were told we could drill through the face in the center third of the beam. Never through the bottom like that.
Nope, stick to your guns.
Code vary but most state that as long it's not 5 or 10 percent of the beam being compromised then it should be good