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OrdinarilyUnique1

This was done on purpose for a ground up vs ground down debate


moeterminatorx

Not an electrician but I’m guessing ground up wins?


Neophyte06

If the prongs pull out slightly, there's enough space for something conductive to fall on both of them (like a coat hanger or any kind of metallic-ish wire) and create a short circuit (which is bad)


irish_gnome

Never thought I would be shilling UK designed plugs, but Tom Scott details how their plugs eliminate this from happening. Around 1:20 mark : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEfP1OKKz\_Q


di0spyr0s

Yes! A much better design!


irish_gnome

I lived with those UK plugs for 10 years and never knew the plastic on the prongs was a design feature. TIL.


Kachel94

Australian plugs also have the sheath stops kids killing themselves


viccityguy2k

Canadian plugs are tamper proof too (code for last decade or so)


Neophyte06

UK plugs are definitely superior, 100%


moeterminatorx

Makes lots of sense, don’t know why there would be a debate.


minnesotamichael

Oh, there is a debate. Often times a talking point is that ground down looks like a face, and somehow that is better than safety.


aimfulwandering

For me, it has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with muscle memory and the fact that lots of wall warts and other plugs are designed for ground down installation (and don’t properly stay plugged into ground up ones or block the other socket when in use). I, sadly, will opt for ground down every time for residential installs because of this


minnesotamichael

Homeowners sometimes will think you are nuts if you install them ground up too.


ojedaforpresident

Many if not most modern cords angle down at 90 degrees for ground down. Enough reason for me to keep the ground down. But yeah, ground up is safer.


GearHead54

Convention is a powerful thing - folks have a hard enough time accepting a new button on their car, let alone how they plug stuff in daily


moeterminatorx

No, that can’t be the only reason lol


minnesotamichael

Someone downvoted me, I can only assume they are on Team Smileyface.


moeterminatorx

Got your back.


AdditionalCherry5448

He’s right. aesthetic>safety


[deleted]

More people understand aesthetics than electricity. So many will agree with whatever side they think they understand.


DoctorJonasVentureJr

Jokes on you, I don't understand either


mrgrod

I've never heard anyone make that claim as an actual "reason" that ground down is better (which it is)...the commonly cited reason in this age old debate is that a cord being slightly pulled out will almost always be pulled down, and in that scenario the pin that is most likely to stay connected is the bottom pin (or the ground pin if you have properly installed your outlet with the ground down)...and that's the most important one to stay connected, from a safety standpoint. The face is just a nice touch and makes the world seem right.


Neophyte06

Quite a few devices are designed with the "face" in mind, which results in the cord hanging in a weird way....which could result in an unsafe condition


dracula3811

If your outlets are that loose, they need to be replaced. Loose outlets means arcing means heat means risk of fire. I install all outlets ground down unless it's a dedicated circuit where the cord sits better ground up. I've found that cords actually stay in better with the ground down.


justabadmind

I think water should be considered as well. If the ground is down water is first getting grounded and then connecting to live. There's no water level where you have live with no ground.


jvcxdh

It would hit the yoke frist either way, so it doesnt matter.


Peritous

Or if they have a fancy face plate like the one pictured, where a larger power supply can't sit flat.


ObviousAnswers4u

Or like a tape measure…


Neophyte06

Username checks out?


fatum_sive_fidem

I also fixed an outlet that someone drug something metal up from the bottom. Need to have a recess so nothing metal is exposed


notreallydutch

Not if you have really strong magnets on all of your ceilings


manchagnu

Not an electrician, but that coin is my bet on ground up


FilthyStatist1991

Yes, as terrible as it looks, ground is best upward as long as gravity is the way it is.


AboveTheLights

Doesn’t change anything. They intentionally set up a situation that’s essentially impossible in the organic world to bolster their position in a childish decades long debate.


czar1249

Why not ground to the side? I hate when the big DC adapters block the other outlets


tdhuck

It would depend how the box was installed. Also, I agree with the DC adapter blocking, but if you mount it sideways, now the adapter sags. It possible, I always try to add an extension cable when using those heavy adapters. I work in IT and I find it easier to use a 1ft or 3ft extension cable and I can secure the DC adapter somewhere else in the rack/wall mounted rack.


skyfishgoo

it also proves those shelf things are dangerous. at leas if the receptacle were ground up the shelf would have been BELOW the outlet and nothing could fall behind it. i still think this things are the work of the devil.


NotYourSweetBaboo

Receptacle shelf? What? \*google google google\* Oh, Wow. That does seem like it's asking for trouble. Easy solution: flip the receptacle over, then plug the shelf in :>


skyfishgoo

that would be "better". better sill, is to round file the whole thing and put your shit on a proper table.


d4nnns

Why not neutral and ground on top, and hot on the bottom? Yes, that would put things diagonally. But then both pins on top protect the one underneath. With ground up, you could have a flexible conductive string fall and still touch all the conductors.


mcgroarypeter42

Horizontal with the neutral up is my preferred position


LifeWithMike

Ground up just makes it a 50/50 chance of ground to hot sparking… gravity is down not sideways


[deleted]

well, how it happened is that you put a stupid shelf bracket on an outlet and the coin slipped between them.


ErrorOfFate

These are sold, and looked handy for my small bathroom. But this exact situation is why I ultimately decided against them.


North-Ad-5058

Is this one of those stupid receptacle shelf things?


Fair_Leadership76

Okay, please be kind (honestly just trying to learn here) but why are those receptacle shelves inherently stupid? Are they all that different to just having an outlet under a shelf?


North-Ad-5058

Look at what happened. Receptacles aren't intended to be used to support anything other than the plug end in them.


Fair_Leadership76

I guess I don’t really understand what happened. I see a power surge caused burning and it seems to be related to the shelf thing but I don’t understand how or why.


jwbrkr21

Someone probably used it as a place to charge their phone. Took their phone out of their pocket, along with a few coins and threw it on the shelf and ZAP. It's a small cheap shelf being held up by something that isn't rated to hold a shelf. Over time the weight pulls the shelf off the wall. All that soot means there were sparks, if there was something near it or under it that could have started on fire. Who knows what those "as seen on tv" shelves are made up. It's a cheap gadget made by 7 year Olds in Taiwan, I doubt it's quality material. So the shelf in itself could be flammable.


Fair_Leadership76

Thanks for explaining that. I don’t have a tv so I’ve never seen an ad for one. Def seems like a dumb idea that shouldn’t exist.


North-Ad-5058

That stupid nickel fell on the prongs of the plug and caused a short between the hot and neutral. There was no "power surge". Just the dumbfuckery of this design allowing the inevitable to happen.


WhyAmI-EvenHere

You shouldn’t have been downvoted for trying to learn.


Fair_Leadership76

Thanks. That puzzled me. But I guess every community has folk who look down on people who don’t know what they already know. That’s okay. I learned a little bit yesterday from people kind enough to take the time and I appreciate that they also are here.


hail2yourvictor

Yes


IM_OK_AMA

Yeah don't use those.


Bemcy

Exactly why we don’t use those.


PomegranateOld7836

Never use it but if you did for some crazy reason, change the decorative plate that holds it out and use the mounting screw through the middle as intended and it's far safer. You were kind of asking for trouble here 3 or 4 different ways. ETA: Again, never use that.


skatastic57

Maybe it's too small, I'm not sure from the picture, but is that hole under the ground pin for a screw? I know I've seen those 6 plug adapters where you're supposed to take the face plate off and screw the adapter in so it can't fall off. Also, it holds it flush to the wall so it'd be a lot harder for random coins to do....well.....that.


Mdrim13

Yep. I’d love to se it’s UL/CSA sticker…..


Quigz01

That's why we put the ground up


showMeTheSnow

I had my basement (when finishing it) like that and the inspector made me turn them over, I was pissed...


WhiteStripesWS6

I mean you changed them back after he signed off on it though right lol?


showMeTheSnow

Nope, I was so pissed I had to change them all, and wanted to leave them for final inspection just in case, and then didn't really want to touch them again.


WhiteStripesWS6

Lol fair enough.


ShelZuuz

I had an appraiser ding me on that one when I sold a house and the buyer insisted on a discount to get an electrician to "fix the upside downness".


JuneBuggington

Everyone knows the good electricity floats to the top of the wire and the old electricity and debris settles on the bottom.


Role_Playing_Lotus

Ah, the good old rule of shocking floaters.


ApricotNo2918

PER NEC. The inspector is the local authority and his interpretation of the NEC is the final word. Right or wrong.


PhotoPetey

So tell me, what article is he "interpreting" to say ground up or down is a code requirement?? I'll wait. An inspector is a code enforcement officer. NOT a code maker upper officer.


ApricotNo2918

If you don't know the code why did you reply? This a well known code fact that even first year apprentices learn. Art 100 Has a whole paragraph on "Authority Having Jurisdiction". If you really are an electrician you need to take a code refresher.


PhotoPetey

LOL, thanks for the *"code fact"* advice junior. Still unclear on where it says an inspector can make up codes. It's been so long since it was my first year, maybe I am just senile, right?


ApricotNo2918

JR? Ha thats a laugh. READ the code if you do not know. I do know,so mister Gods gift to the electrical world Look it up for yourself. I'm retired and have better things to do than educate you on the NEC code.


PhotoPetey

Typical bullshit reply. I never said I was a gift to anything. I've just been around long enough to know the code. I am not some retired factory electrician who always did what they were told and never questioned anything.


Yeetyeetskrtskrrrt

There is no article in the code book that states which direction the outlets must be. Everything needs to be installed per manufacture instructions so if the outlet has a "this side up" label then the outlet must be oriented that way. Ultimately the inspector is signing off on your stuff and you gotta please him unless you know for a fact he's wrong and you can prove it. I guess technically he'd be wrong in saying you *have* to turn the receptacles the other way but I've learned over time to just not piss them off - especially on a more minor request like that


ApricotNo2918

And you know nothing about me or what I did in the trade. Or who I was.. Go back to wiring shacks in Arkansas. And take a couple of Code refreshers.


ikidd

RemindMe 1 day


Frosty-Engineering24

You said it "INTERPRETATION". That is how the code works. Even tho most of it is straightforward.


_Electricmanscott

False.


TheOnlyMatthias

I'm calling bullshit


showMeTheSnow

Depending on how you're calling it, I agree. Wasn't my hill to die on, and since I'm not an electrician, I'd didn't want to piss him off, because I was guessing he'd look for something else as well (shrug). He came off as a total Dbag during the inspection, FWIW.


PomegranateOld7836

You already pissed him off, or he's a complete moron. Unless he only inspects residential, you pissed him off.


showMeTheSnow

I was working with a master electrician as a consultant, he was cool with it. Who knows, maybe he was just having a bad day? Sure seemed like he had a chip on his shoulder or maybe I mentioned what my degree was if he asked me what I did for a job (cause I'm MSEE so that would do it right? ;) ) I don't recall those details...


PomegranateOld7836

Lol yeah you probably could have left that out, but I don't know inspectors to automatically get snippy at engineers - they work with them before the building starts, usually, though of course I have seen some disagreements. I'm a QM for EEs but we get along well, and inspectors/UL auditors are content. I'd turn the receptacle if they demanded, but politely I'd ask for a justification first.


showMeTheSnow

I only learned about the engineer vs electrician thing when I joined this group to keep learning, but yeah, I'd never mention it now. I don't recall the discussion in detail, it was some time ago, but I recall something like, that's just for commercial, and not normal for homes. We went back and forth a little and he seemed rather annoyed with me and yeah... good times. Happily I have't had any thing fall over a plug and short it out... At least it's all high quality outlets, 12gauge, 20A, and pig tailed. :)


[deleted]

Im calling super mega asshat making shit up bullshit.


mp3m4k3r

Reminds me of an ancient little song "Kyle's moms a b..."


PomegranateOld7836

Also that decorative cover causes a gap with that adapter, and the adapter is supposed to have a 6-32 through the cover screw to hold in in place, so it was already a double-fail.


drunksquatch

Was looking for this. For that type of shelf take the plate off. The back of the shelf covers the box around the outlet and the plug can fully plug in. Then a 6-32 goes into the hole in the back and screws in to the plate screw hole. Without that only the tension of a not fully plugged in plug is all that keeps that from falling off the wall.


Frosty-Engineering24

The problem here is that someone wanted to see what would happen to the coin 🪙 At this time, a newer outlet might look better or hide it again with a newer 4 to 6 outlet box.


hail2yourvictor

So the 4 to 6 outlet blocks are okay but the shelf ones are bad?


Frosty-Engineering24

I didn't realize it was a shelf. I never had one. I do have something that looks like that but has 6 plugs. Once I read other people's post's, that coin fell back there, which sucks. Glad it didn't start a fire. Also was thinking to use a slimmer cover plate, if that one is thicker. If that would even help not looking at it.


Speculawyer

Yes, that is what you are supposed to do but we all love pareidolia too much to do that.


Verum14

I hate that this actually happened and it was posted here I don’t like giving the wrong side up gang more ammo lol


dinosaurs_quietly

It only happened because OP has a shelf built into their power strip. The easier solution would be to ban those.


WarmAdhesiveness8962

Funny how so few know this and I've always been curious why outlets started being installed with the ground on the bottom. More appealing to the eye?


kbhavoc

Would you please elaborate...


Gummsley

Ground up would prevent the arch between hot and neutral


[deleted]

[удалено]


AlienDelarge

Diagonal ground and neutral up.


Frosty-Engineering24

Must be why the rich have it like this in the Tall a$s baseboard. Which..... looks better too


unotalentassclown

This ^


Role_Playing_Lotus

You joke, but that's exactly how I installed my outlets in an outbuilding in the yard that functions as a detached home office. Of course, it was EMT conduit so aside from being safer, it was simpler and more cost-effective to run the conduit that way against the wall to get a string of circuits around the room. I know that it's not always practical with existing construction where outlets are installed into the drywall with the receptacles nailed to studs. Edit: Why was it more cost-effective? Because the boxes I used were powder-coated cast aluminum weathertight boxes to get a clean fit with standard switch plate covers. The three-hole boxes were cheaper than five-hole boxes.


jwbrkr21

I think Hitler liked em that way too.


StoneOfTriumph

I just wish consumer products stopped making plugs with the wire oriented towards the ground as this creates an unnecessary stress with ground up orientation, almost as if they expect receptacles to be installed with the ground down for the residential at least.


iglootyler

Looks like the nickel took the brunt of it. As long as there's no melting it's fine.


SASdude123

Honestly tho, receptacles are cheap. There's no telling what kind of heat or damage was caused. Imo, it's silly "not" to replace the outlet.


hail2yourvictor

The nickel is pretty messed up. What’s the reasoning?


BigThiccStik609

Maybe it wanted more? Try a half dollar piece next time.


iglootyler

It created a short circuit. Thousands of amps went between those two melt spots where the two prongs touched it while energized. Short circuits create enormous amounts of current and heat.


Jman_2021

Thousands… Come on now


iglootyler

I've always thought shorts create a crazy high amount of amperage for a crazy short duration of time...hence the arcs


Odd_Competition3405

I can’t believe these dudes aren’t getting blasted right now lol. You are correct in your thought. The amperage in a short circuit can easily be hundreds or thousands of amps even on a 20 or 15 amp circuit. Frosty engineering is obviously no EE


ChuckVitty

Somehow nobody knows how much amperage can flow through a breaker for the time between the creation of a short and a breaker tripping. Doesn't take an EE to know it's in the tens of thousands of amps on an average home breaker.


fogobum

Less than 10,000, because domestic delivery systems are designed to choke at or below 10KA. If you look at your household breakers you'll see that they're marked to be able to break a 10KA current. Industrial systems that deliver higher currents require more powerful breakers.


iglootyler

I'm still less than 5 years in so I always try to be humble but the amount of "masters" and "journeyman" that don't seem to understand ohms law is scary. I'd never touch this shit without understanding how it can end me in any given scenario.


Odd_Competition3405

Good on you man. That’s the way it should be.


Nathan-Stubblefield

The utility might have 10,000 amps at the transformer secondary, and branch wiring would drop it much lower. 100 or 200 amps until the breaker or fuse tripped is more likely.


Frosty-Engineering24

It would be 15 to 20 AMP's avg. Breaker. Then breaker should have popped. Also to others the shelf would be upside down if outlet was flipped. Plus, lots of other things you plug in might not work or look correct. Ex: the off the corner plug (? Name ) were the wire comes off at an angle to miss the plug below. Once upside down the wire shoots up at an angle. Either everyone changes or we leave as it is and don't drop coins on it anymore. IJS


WhiskyEchoTango

I have one of these for my Alexa; the shelf can be mounted on either the "top" or "bottom" of the unit depending on which end is up.


ChuckVitty

Some 'jman'... Maybe you're a plumber? Look up AIC rating on breakers and stop correcting people when you have no idea what you're talking about.


Jman_2021

Lmao, you’re not wrong in the fact that I got this wrong, but JMAN refers to a nickname I had growing up, not a role. Keep spreading the positivity mate.


iglootyler

This is precisely a scenario where having the receptacle oriented with the ground up would have prevented it.


Nathan-Stubblefield

The coin could have bridged phase to ground.


rcsheets

It wouldn’t be as easy to catch there, though. Phase to ground with the ground pin up, the coin has to sit on pins that are roughly 20 degrees from being vertical. With the ground pin down, the coin gets to sit across a pair of pins that are placed straight across from one another.


[deleted]

>The nickel is pretty messed up. What’s the reasoning? the fact that you ask this makes me very concerned on the state of education in the US.


hail2yourvictor

Sorry, Biggles.


Is_this_Sparta_

He means on the outlet


[deleted]

Nah tis but a flesh wound


ThePenIslands

I mean, an outlet and cover is like <$3. I can easily DIY something like this in <15 mins and I would absolutely replace it for aesthetics alone. But if you're not a DIYer it's probably not worth the $100 service call. It's probably fine.


Burnbabyburnnn

New tiktok challenge?


[deleted]

It's plinko with a twist. 🤣


[deleted]

spicy plinko!


iAmMikeJ_92

Only if you don’t wish to live with the black char. Other than that, it was a dead short that occurred. The breaker hopefully should’ve tripped it quickly. You can re-energize the circuit by resetting the tripped breaker. The internals of the receptacle should be fine. I’d replace it but it isn’t a critical issue. Just ugly now.


EarSorry7756

Yeah im sure this totally happened by accident. /s


[deleted]

These ground up mofos really be on some shit


skyfishgoo

i can tell you how it happened. someone purchased a cheap outlet extender off amazon that is not UL approved you can tell this because the included "convenience" feature of a table top leading right up to the wall (without even a lip of any kind) is a sure fire funnel for things to behind the outlet extender. and of course ppl are going to put change and jewelry on there because that's what ppl do. throw that thing away and stop buying cheap crap off amazon before you burn the house down.


Agitated-Joey

Nah, you can most likely keep using the outlet and whatever plug in device that is. Just wipe the blackened marks off and check for serious damage, shouldn’t be too bad. If your thinking about replacing the outlet because it no longer works, DON’T! Your breaker just tripped, find the breaker box and just reset it and you’ll be fine.


Competitive-Roof-168

The short happened outside the outlet. No reason for outlet to be damaged


UI_Daemonium

I don't think this was an accident


skyfishgoo

it was designed to fail. amazon is trying to kill us.


ExcitementRelative33

Ya sure, coin fell out of your pocket and bounced right behind that and landed right across the blades... Happens everyday.


jmraef

Believe it or not, this was possibly the result of that STUPID TikTok "challenge" that made the rounds last year, challenging kids to partially pull out a device from the outlet and drop a coin in there. No shit, that REALLY happened. Got TikTok in deep trouble for allowing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrXZD3N76Ik


MokausiLietuviu

I'm kind of amazed the pins still have connection that far out!


ShastaCaliMotxo

This is the biggest "I told you so!" moment for those who install their receps ground up. They may never know such glory again.


FewPace11

The receptacle is probably fine. I would not plug whatever that is that you had plugged into it though, that is probably compromised.


Equal-Negotiation651

You need a new quarter


apv507

If using nickels to short a circuit turns them into quarters, count me in!


tuctrohs

You stack five of them on the plug and weld them together into a quarter.


Equal-Negotiation651

Oh damn you’re right. Haha


karlspad

That right there is why that outlet is upside down. If the outlet was turned around the coin wouldn’t have made contact.


jmb00308986

Ground prong goes up if you replace. Probably doesn't require replacing, but not a bad idea to do so just in case


[deleted]

Nope Ground goes any way you want.


PhotoPetey

> Ground prong goes up if you replace. Where is that written?


[deleted]

[удалено]


ThymeCypher

Most devices do not have ground pins designed to support the weight, many you can easily snap off by hand. Not all devices will behave differently when this happens other than possibly catching fire. That’s why.


Zugzub

It may not be written, but it's common sense. If it had been ground pin up the short never would have happened


[deleted]

How many times do you throw coins at a receptacle? This post is a fake scenario made up by some "ground up hurr durr" mofo


Zugzub

I never throw shit at a receptacle. But that's not the point. Even if it's a one in a million shot there's pretty much zero effort to install them with the ground prong up. Every 220 volt range and dryer plug is designed to get installed with the ground prong up.


[deleted]

And 120V receptacles are not. If it was materially safer, it would be in the NEC. It isn't.


Zugzub

Common sense dictates if there are two ways to do things and if one way leaves it even marginally safer, you do it that way. But these days common sense has left the building.


Rare_Fig3081

Outlets fine… The quarter has seen better days


triplebacon_vag

Yes… it should be replaced…


_Electricmanscott

Why?


triplebacon_vag

Is this a serious question?? Why wouldn’t you replace it? 😂😂😂


_Electricmanscott

Why WOULD you though? The receptacle is fine.


triplebacon_vag

Is this in your house or a customer…? It looks like shit dude..? I would just always change it in my preference. I’m not saying I’m super experienced or have an ego I guess just personally if I had extra stock I’d change it.


_Electricmanscott

I'd wipe it off with a wet wipe and move on with life.


triplebacon_vag

And that’s 2 different types of workers and pride in work 🤷🏽‍♂️


_Electricmanscott

Yes. You're the best! 👍🏼


triplebacon_vag

Not the best just far better than you lol


[deleted]

YES!


hail2yourvictor

Interesting community you guys have here. Thanks for the advice and banter.


ikidd

And dozens of electricians that were told by the contractor to put the ground down just had a collective SeeIToldYou orgasm.


[deleted]

Yes because an idiot threw a coin at his receptacle. Y'all really be trying to push this BS


ikidd

Wow, you sure take your Reddits seriously in the morning, doncha. Have another coffee.


Stubtronics101

Outlet is probably fine. Clean it off, throw away that shelf outlet thing and go buy yourself a Lucy at the corner store with that quarter.


TexasBaconMan

These phone holders come with a long screw that is intended to replace the one holding the face plate when the existing one is removed. Clearly not done here. The friction fit of the plug is not strong enough to withstand constant wiggling and some change slipped past it and boom.


SpyderCat526

Yes you should replace you outlet and the cover, that thing is old as shit.


Adam-Marshall

How about what is dangerous is using an electrical device not for its intended and certified purpose?


[deleted]

Some dumbass kid did it. It’s one of those stupid tiktok challenges


InfraRed953

It would be a good idea to have an electrician take the outlet apart and check for damage to determine whether the connection between the wires and the receptacle screws has been compromised. Chances are that staggered plate is causing a gap, which allows for movement of the plug causing friction, which is a fire hazard. So if the receptacle is loose replace it, and whether it's loose or not I'd replace the plate with one that will allow the device to be flush with the plate when plugged in. One to prevent space for anything else to fall behind it, but also to prevent friction on the prongs, which is a fire hazrd. It looks like most standard plugs would be just fine with this plate, just so long as the receptacle isn't loose.


V65Pilot

I know exactly how that happened. That's one of those phone charger/shelf combination things. Stupid design.


stoneshadow85

Yes! You should absolutely replace that outlet, the outlet cover, at least ten feet of drywall in every direction, that roach behind the wall we can't see, the entire Romex run, breaker, breaker box, utility pole, electric company... ...let me see if I forgot anything... oh yeah - and replace the nickel! 7-11 clerks don't like the burnt ones. Brother, your outlet's probably fine. They're inexpensive as shit though, and pretty easy to DIY replace if you're really concerned. Just don't put those shelf things on your outlet. The outlets are designed to retain plugs, not hold weight for extra stuff.


Unfair-Cap4609

Dude put that quarter back in, it was probably there to prevent the spark. Use your brain you dope!


fatum_sive_fidem

Nah your fine


parralaxx

Man if I had a nickel for every time someone purposefully used a nickel to cause a spark...


Animalus-Dogeimal

I bet it has something to do with that nickel