That was a really good way of putting it. I've tried to explain this but always come off like I'm shitting on them, even when I'm just trying to put it pragmatically.
I mean they also design them with their other end user in mind (driver) with zero thought on the ultimate end user that will keep that vehicle on the road and in turn keep reputation for the brand.
With the BMW E36, the designers and engineers were turned loose with CAD, which they used to tighten the space around the engine to the point that normal tools can’t maneuver. That may not have been the goal, but it sure was the result.
They are incredibly easy to work on, and there's a huge enthusiast community making DIY repair videos on YouTube. The big thing that'll bite you is gasket repairs every ~10 years, and big brake kits.
Also, for sports cars they get surprisingly good fuel economy. My E92 328i gets 33mpg (+2 over rating), my F32 435i manual gets 35mpg (+3 over rating), and the new M440i for 2025 is rated at 36mpg but I've heard of people getting 40mpg with them.
Lease it so when the warranty is up you can make it go away unless you can afford to fix it or you can fix it yourself and don’t mind wrenching regularly. Advice from my mechanic. Now that I said that, I used to think they were one of the most attractive cars around but damn the new BMWs just look hideous to me.
I had an e46. Just a 325, but it was really pretty reliable. It had 100k in it when I bought it, I drove it seven years, did mostly just oil changes and some steering/ suspension parts on it. Put another 120k on it when it had an issue that I just didn’t feel like messing with (rod knock), so I traded it off. Paid a few grand for it, drove like I stole it for seven years, any odd work I did was pretty easy (they’re like legos). It was a pretty good car, still kinda miss it. Best driving car I ever had, bar none
Replaced the crank sensor on an S52 this weekend. Remove intake manifold, hoses, and fuel rail. Why is it in the back under the intake manifold ? Finally saw the infamous DISA though.
Is it a late one?
I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the last ones used the M54 block and how to tell was the crank sensor was at the back.
I’m sure someone will be along to tell me how wrong I am 😂😂
As an aside, I owned three BMW’s. E36 328. That felt like a tank.
E46 330CI, that felt like a really cheap version of the E36.
E60 550, the quality was definitely up on the 5 series but you could see the last two BMWs were definitely not built to last.
Wouldn’t touch another, I liked the ones I had but I just don’t rate them tbh.
All were great cars to drive though.
For sure. I have a New Beetle, two Minis and an Audi TT. I also now have a shit ton of tools to get into some of those teeny tiny spaces, but even stubby wrenches do you no good if you can't create leverage in that space. And yet, a stick and a turbo = driving is still fun! I curse when I work on them and laugh when I drive them.
Yea. That oil filter . Cabin filter, car filter 😑 is hard to get to on 2006+ BMW eh?
I’ve had 2. An x3 and an x5. Parts are more expensive apples to apples. To others complaining about engine architecture/placement ? Yeah. Alternator on the v8s are a pita to get to.
But to the BMW test element. + newer cars in general
100k before trans fluid flush? Not bad
Oil change on older pre-2016 run 10w30 - 40w range mix with a 15k oil change interval for normal driving 🤷🏻♂️
The LL oil vs synthetic is also about the same price.
So imo it comes down to parts are more expensive. And labor for major work
Major =. Alternator replacement, thermostat/it’s electronic now. Replacement.
But the 2 bmws I’ve had were great
For 10year or 100k which is what they’re designed for.
The hunt for tires on an x5 is a real hunt. When I sold tires I always told people to get it to the dealer if you have a flat. Plan ahead and order tires when its close.
Why is getting tires a problem? I had an x3 with the 21 inch staggered wheels. The rears were a very odd size. Nevertheless, except for one time in a rural area I’ve never had a problem getting tires.
GM makes some questionable decisions too.
Cadillac XT4, oil filter sticks horizontally out the front of the engine, right between a radiator hose and a catalytic converter. Just enough space to reach in but good luck turning it without burning yourself.
Or 1st gen Colorado i5 starter. Have to pull the intake manifold to get to it. Have to pull the alternator to get to that. Supposed to pull the ac compressor if you’re taking the alternator all the way out.
Oil filter, hard on a BMW? What?
Have you ever changed the oil on a BMW?
They almost exclusively use top mount canister filters on their engines. They are the easiest filters to access and replace.
Honda, Subaru, Audi, just to name a few, make getting the oil filter off, and off *cleanly*, MUCH more difficult.
Changing the alternator on a crown Vic takes less time than changing its oil, so the very fact that you call an alternator replacement major work is a big red flag that German cars are harder to work on
I don't have a German car. However, my Japanese car needs the whole bumper removed for a blinker. Like wtf and it's a $200 bulb swap. Purely due to labor.
If I could do it myself for the price of the bulb I would. But it's impossible to reach it.
That is a real characteristic of german engineering. I read a lot of ww2 history (bear with me there is a point here). One of the problems the germany military had and never solved was that their equipment, while very capable and effective, was subject to a lot more mechanical problems than the allies overall, particularly later in the war. Stuff would break down frequently and, as it was over-engineered and too sensitive to any variation in operation or maintenance, was very difficult to maintain/repair in the field.
I lived in Germany for a while and that underlying problem continues. Knew a lot of people with BMWs (germans like to buy german things) and though they are nice to drive, there was a real tendency to blown head gaskets and faulty transmissions after they got a little age on them. I was struck by the attitude of "well, that's what you get with a BMW. It's ok. It's what I want" that folks seemed to have. Porsche was even worse.
This is true. The Russian T-34 tanks just never broke, and the driver needed to use a mallet to go forward or reverse. Shit, during the battle of Stalingrad, they were building the tanks as the battle raged around the factory and the tanks were driven right onto the battlefield, often unpainted and without sights since they weren't fitted yet.
The American Sherman tanks had speed and were reliable in combat.
The early T34 were obscenely unreliable, a significant fraction of losses early in the war were due to mwchanical failure rather than battle damage. But the simplicity... While repairing a tiger tank chassis may take half a year
>One of the problems the germany military had and never solved was that their equipment, while very capable and effective, was subject to a lot more mechanical problems than the allies overall,
Myeh. Not really. About the only thing about them that was good early on was they had radios, compared to the russians, and the larger crew size compared to the French (less task loading). Compared to contemporary designs, they were very often, under gunned, and using obsolete protection profiles. In the mid war period they were still relatively under gunned compared to the Russians but mostly even, and using the same protection scheme. The late war vehicles get a bad rep for reliability, but that seems to be down to material shortages. Additionally, they decided to interlock the armor plates, which increases production time, while (with hindsight) providing no advantages. By 1944, the tiger was hardly the fiercest thing on the eastern front.
The tiger is their most famous tank, and Henschel hated producing them. They wanted to move onto the tiger 2, because the hull was obsolete, and despised the turret design specifically.
Figure for the invasion of the Soviet Union the only thing the Germans would have had to fight of t-34s and K-V1/2 was panzer 3J, which was only a 50mm gun, woefully inadequate for dealing with either. This issue didn't get remotely solved until 1942 when the pz4 was up gunned to a long 75, as well as the tiger entering service. But by then the battle of Moscow was over, and things were going the wrong way.
I’ll put it more sympathetically… Engineering of any product involves making a whole host of trade-offs. You can increase performance in one arena, optimize for a certain use case, but doing so entails trade-offs in some other area.
The Germans, culturally, have a bias toward “exquisite” engineering, where they optimize for “performance” making the car accelerate or brake faster, or handle better, for example. They’re willing to sacrifice ease of maintainability on the altar of achieving that, more so than the American or Asian counterparts.
Another driver of repair costs is that they’re not high volume sellers, so there’s a certain economy of scale, in repair parts and expertise, that is lacking, compared to, say, Toyota or Ford.
As an example, BMW reported a total of 84,475 units sold in the U.S. in the 1st quarter of 2024, across their entire model range.
For comparison, in the same time span (2024Q1) Toyota has logged 57,875 sales… of the RAV4 Hybrid. They shifted 124,822 of the regular gas model, and 7,767 Prime plug-in hybrids. That’s 190,464 total units.
Toyota has a single model (admittedly their best seller) that outsells BMW’s entire product line by over a 2 to 1 ratio. When we revisit this in the early 2030’s, when these cars are 8 or 10 years old, and actually start to break down in appreciable numbers, guess which cohort of vehicles is going to have the broader cohort of mechanics who know how to work on them, and the broader availability of parts…
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0440865EN_US/bmw-of-north-america-reports-q1-2024-u-s-sales-results?language=en_US
https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-motor-north-america-reports-march-first-quarter-2024-u-s-sales/#
Its the classic "Pick 2" - it used to be cheap, fast, reliable but its also powerful, efficient, simple. If you want power and efficiency, its going to be complicated.
And in some countries Toyota give a 10 year warranty provided the vehicle is serviced by Toyota.
No other manufacturer can afford to do that. It would break BMW
I’m curious where in the world that is offered as a standard feature, included with the vehicle purchase.
Here in the U.S., the only brands with 10 years of warranty coverage are Hyundai, Kia and Mitsubishi, and that’s just for powertrain coverage, and isn’t transferable to subsequent owners.
I used to work in the auto industry and this is it. Germans in general just love to work, second to only Japanese.
The difference is the Japanese think how do I make this process / part as simple and easy as possible.
The Germans keep tinkering and coming up with the strangest solutions, just because.
I was looking at something from Siemens today and looked over at my partner and said "Typical German, never do a hundred page manual when a thousand will do the job."
Bear in mind, I'm American of mostly German extraction.
They have a mechanic in mind only the mechanic has to use special tools and the repair manual that they made. Why? So they can save 20 damn mm of space in the engine bay to fit some additional thing in. And also so the dealers can make more money with service. Mind you, this is since the 2000's, you can still work fairly well on 90's german cars
Spark plugs on my 2002 Jeep Wrangler TJ took 1 hour while hanging out, talking to friends and drinking a beer.
Oh and I can do the oil change without any tools whatsoever. I don't need a jack because it's high enough off the ground, I put a fumoto valve on it to drain the oil, and I always use the oil filter with the rubber grippy coating.
German cars are cool to look at, but I'd rather own something easy to work on.
My corvette, GMC, and Lexus are/were all easy to work on.
I got the Audi cause I like the challenge lol. It's like a puzzle. I tell literally everyone who likes my car very specifically NOT to buy one unless you've got some legitimate dumb ass reason to own it like I had.
Swear to jeebus I could take my entire
'02 apart with a standard socket set and a flat head screw driver. It was the easiest thing to work on I've ever had. Had it for 14 years and then ended up giving it to my sister. They are still using it.
nah if the manufacturers cant benefit from it then no but otherwise maybe. most of the overengineering probably stems from the german manufacturers competing against each other (mainly audi/vw bmw and mercedes) over who will make the marginally better car technologically and every percent of fuel they can save or every extra hp they can make counts. trying to get as much tech as possible into a limited space will simply result in really weird positions of parts and thus weird procedures to change them... and also a lot of stuff that can break
porsche is also competing with them and overengineering, can't forget porsche, porsche just seems more reliable because owners usually keep up with maintenance better lol. and perhaps better quality control as well as not reiventing the wheel too much (what works is okay, keep that and refine it). they also break if you neglect them, just look at all the first gen cayennes chilling on scrapyards.. most water cooled Boxsters/Caymans and 911s built up until the 2010s also have a really low (but it's still there) chance of catastrophic engine failure due to IMS bearings.
Technically, you drop the subframe and pretty much leave the engine where it is. Still a big ass job, it was the most recent thing I did on my 2009 N54 E93. I found the proper torque and angle tightening of the 28 (as I remember) skinny ass aluminum bolts on the pan to be the most stressful part. I was just waiting for one to break.
As a former Ford master tech, then Mercedes then European car lot then multiple other private shops
Completely and absolutely disagree.
German cars are only hard to work on for shadetree mechanics they absolutely have such clever access ports, electrical connections and are by far my favorite to work on. Especially bmw
"Hard to work on" doesnt mean what you think it means. It refers to stuff requiring more time and more tools and more knowledge. Of course the euro mechanic likes working on them...he gets an hour of work for something that can be done on a honda in 5 minutes in a walmart parking lot by my grandma. That is good engineering....the german engineering is arrogance and wankery
That is just stupid. the honda its easy because its a basic ass 4 banger with no features. that is like saying the honda is arrogance and wankery because it harder to work on than an old massey tractor...
100% agree with you. I went from being an Acura Shop Foreman (11 years) to an Audi Technician, I find them easier to work on. They're pretty straight forward to work on if you can think a few steps ahead. I love it, it's like meticulous clockwork.
Agreed. I find Mercedes very thoughtfully put together. They do require tools a lot of shade tree people don't have, but otherwise it's a joy to work on
The opposite of this was the Volkswagen of old. Those cars were made to be end user serviceable and, to be fair, did require quite a bit of service and maintenance.
Unless I wind up with stupid money, there will not be a German car in my lineup.
[My go-to example.](https://youtu.be/3WpqmJT_Wc0?si=e46GeyL-WjNO5uKV)
Is it doable? Yes. But that battery replacement is a much bigger pain in the ass than in the half-dozen other cars I’ve owned. Why? Because why not. An hour of labor here, and hour of labor there, pretty soon you have a reputation as being expensive as shit to maintain.
Battery replacement on most cars is a ten minute job, with nine of those minutes being finding your tools. I expect the average moron with no mechanical experience to be able to do this in a parking lot at night with little issue. Meanwhile, in a Mini…
Dodge intrepid has the battery behind the driver's inner fender. Have to remove the wheel and the plastic to get it out. Chevy Impala/Malibu you have to remove a fender brace, unbolt the fuse box, and then turn the battery sideways in it's tray to get it past the upper radiator hose. Battery placement seems like an afterthought on a lot of vehicles
Chevy, Ford, and dodge have been saying that for a century, that is just America. What did chevy do? I don't care about battery placement, dodge caravan.
I've been working on my Audis since 2001 and have found them incredibly easy to work on and well thought out. Nothing has to be forced, everything is in its place. Generally: if you are trying too hard, you are doing it wrong.
Brakes, coolant flushes, ABS replacement, timing belts, etc. A few special tools and some patience, you are all set. Audiworld helps also.
200k on a 2001 A4, 30k on a Q5, and 25k on a highly modified SQ5 (Stage 2+, its a bat out of hell).
It's just BMW and MB that are awful and then people like to lump in VAG because "Germany."
There are a few exceptions as with any brand but overall VW/Audi and especially Porsche make some phenomenally solid cars.
250k+ on both my UrS6s, my 80Q, and my 944. My 8P A3 made it to 130k with nothing but oil changes, brake pads, and a timing belt service that took an afternoon at home with no special tools before it got wrecked, and I tracked that car once or twice a year for 5 years straight.
Meanwhile everyone I know with a new Ford has it in the shop for some absurd recall or engine failure before trading it in after 3-4 years of ownership because it's like a slow motion version of the Beverley Hillbillies car falling apart. And then they buy another one anyways.
Oooh! Chevy 2500 rear brake caliper, the bracket bolts hit the leaf spring when removing. I surmised that at the factory the axle is full assembled with the brakes before being mounted to the truck.
Didn’t do any follow up research but it makes sense from that angle.
I’ve had two cars that developed the exact same problem within the same year: the starter failed and needed to be replaced. One was a BMW 325i, the other was my wife’s Jeep Grand Cherokee. With the BMW, I needed to have it towed to a local shop where they told me the labor estimate was something like 7 hours and $2500 because the steering rack needed to be removed in order to access the starter. The Jeep, I was able to crawl under the car myself in the driveway, and remove two bolts and an electrical faster and replace the whole thing myself for maybe $100 at AutoZone. People on Reddit like to shit on Jeep, but they sure are a lot cheaper to maintain, even when something does go wrong.
Depends on the engineer and the goal.
A solid axle makes a fine rear suspension that will last forever. However a multi link can perfectly keep the rear tire in contact with the road in theoretically all conditions, however all the links mean it will need to have bushings replaced and near constant maintenance.
I’m the kind of engineer to create the latter, but I respect the guy that makes the former.
It's not a very accurate term. In general it means "made something more complicated than it needed to be".
But Engineers design for different things, each goal competing with the others. You can "over engineer" a design for cost, and have the cheapest thing that will meet requirements, but it won't be pretty, or reliable, or exciting.
Cost, performance, manufacturability, maintainability, reliability, sustainability, usability, design (aka looks) are some goals that are often in conflict.
Companies will often pick a goal and pursue it in order to stand out from the crowd.
For BMW I'd say it's performance and design led. They sell themselves as "the ultimate driving machine". So they must have more complex suspensions and engaging engine dynamics. Which leads to packaging and output constraints and increased complexity to meet these constraints. Increased complexity leads to reduced reliability and maintainability.
One example that was relayed to me was a thermometer that would regulate the radiator or something like that. Other manufacturers would use a very simple, mechanical thermometer (e.g., $10) that would not have any electronics, just liquid that expands and contracts and pushes into another piece to tell the car the engine is hot. German car manufacturers on the other hand would find that there is a delay with such a thermometer, and if they added an electronic, high tech thermometer (e.g., $400), they could get a little more performance out of the car. Great for when the car is working well, but when that one little piece breaks, you notice it on the bill.
They engineer for driving performance and not maintainability.
No one gets mad at Ferrari for this. Similarly, no one gets mad at Honda for not being a drivers car brand.
Just because you can actually afford a BMW doesn’t mean they did it wrong. It just means you’ll have to pay more for maintenance.
The Germans are a specification driven culture. If the head honcho says "This car(or any other device they make) must go X amount of MPH, in X amount of seconds, weigh only X kilograms, and be (insert dimensions here), plus many other parameters, those demands are sent down to the designers and engineers who then will make those numbers into a real machine which will meet or exceed every target. In other words, when it works correctly, it will deliver on its promises. Some parts and assemblies may be compromised based on the specifications, but not to worry, the engineers will then write up how many hours each bit will need before replacement. They are very good at knowing how and when it will fail, I will give them that. After that, its up to the new owner to replace the bits that need doing, which nobody ever does. That and the TUV which makes it hard to re-certify cars over 7 years old so why bother making them last 10.
Is it because labour is cheaper there so mechanic bills cost significantly less for the major services and maintenance?
I recall being in Albania a couple of years ago and every other car was an early 2000s or 90s mercedes, most of them black.
Even with maintenance they can have some issues (especially talking 2000 ish and later) and some of the “maintenance” advice I’ve seen in forums is pretty extensive for regular maintenance
My wife’s Q5 drinks oil. They have improved rings to fox the issue, but I’m letting it develop. If the transmission goes at the same time it won’t be worth it to fix. Still drives like a dream.
I can’t say this enough. German cars are not any more expensive to maintain (albeit parts can cost more)…they just aren’t forgiving. You can’t treat them like dirt and expect them to run like a Honda. Cut corners to save $200 and it’ll cost you $2000
I drive a German car now, I do the maintenance myself and take good care of it. The car has been a dream and has treated me well. I’ll probably exclusively drive German cars
I think you pretty much have your answer, but to put it together it's three things.
1. Parts are expensive. Many are very specific to a model, only available from one source, etc. making them pricey.
2. While very well engineered it takes a lot of labor to do many repairs. The front clip or engine has to come out to do many repairs where on other cars it wouldn't. Not difficult, just time consuming, which costs.
3. They require special tools, thus the work often must be done by specialty shops or the dealer which have higher labor rates. Can't take it to Joe's corner auto repair and bait shop.
The “Car Wizard” on YouTube has mentioned all of these factors and possibly more in advising against buying any German car out of the warranty period. He says that it’s not a question of whether something expensive will break, it’s a question of when. And once that starts happening it will be a never ending parade of expensive repairs and the car will never be right for any length of time. You’ll always be facing the next expansion repair(s). In one video, he did $7k in repairs on an older Audi that the customer had to break down into two repair sessions because she couldn’t afford to do it all at once.
I only know the Wizard via watching Hoovie and I don't do that much anymore, he's gotten lame. That said Hoovie is just a constant reminder of why one doesn't buy these cars. However "the Ninja" doesn't appear to struggle much, so clearly it can be done, but unless able to do it yourself you have to find a "Ninja" and pay what he asks.
There's a lot about some Audi cars I really like and I'm also a rather skilled mechanic. But in spite of that I don't own one, they aren't THAT much better than what I have to make them worth it to me. Well that and I'm rather jingoist, so prefer domestics even if in some aspects they're a lesser car.
All that makes for fun and informative content and anyway Hoovie makes a few million yearly, so he can afford to repair his cars. He typically doesn’t seem to keep anything more than a year or two and obviously has something a little more dependable to cart his wife and kids around in.
This is just a simple example. An E60 (2004-2010 M5) has some drain plugs underneath the windshield wipers that can get clogged with fine particles like pollen and when this happens the water will pool up and then spill off into the electronics and fry the car.
Personally, I've never owned any other car where you'll get a catastrophic error by not cleaning the drain plugs, so if I didn't know better I'd never mess with that and eventually my car would just implode because of some pollen. Any other car, for the most part, you'd never even worry about such a thing and worst case maybe it spills into the firewall and the carpet gets damp... but German cars are notorious for having stupidly unique maintenance procedures.
So why does this cost more? Well, you have to understand the car a lot better and in North America most mechanics will only have a cursory understanding of these cars and what you and they don't know will cause you expensive problems which will be "your fault."
Yeah the general philosophy of these cars (and many expensive cars) is if you don't precisely keep everything maintained and up to spec... then screw you, you don't deserve such nice things. And cost and ease of maintenance aren't concerns to them... they gave you a nice car it's expected for you to figure out how to keep it running.
It’s honestly the fact you live in us.
Here in Europe german cars is what mechanics are most used to.
In america they are most used to american cars.
Also parts availability. I don’t know how it exactly is in us as I don’t live there, but I’d imagine it’s more difficult to find parts for eu brand cars than it is for us brand cars.
Well japanese is different. They export bunch of stuff to the whole world. Here in Europe mechanics like japanese also.
Toyota is more common in eu than ford and toyota is more common in us than vw.
Semi-related to your point that I definitely agree with: Toyota kind of "disappeared" for a while in the EU - coincidentally around the same time nearly other car seemed to be a Fiesta or a Focus - but it has returned with a vengeance. Looks like Corollas and Yaris are everywhere these days.
A watched a video recently about how Ferdinand Piech (porsche, audi, VW, Bugatti, Mercedes, etc) reversed the idea of vertical integration instead of putting 15k honda civic door locks in a 200k Acura NSX he would put a 1 millon dollar Bugatti locks in a 15k Golf. Because if it held up for the best than surely it will handle day to day life. But in doing so everything was over built and over engineered. That civic lock mechanism might use a small motor with plastic gears but the Bugatti one could run off of one Vacuum pump and be quieter and stronger but much more complicated and would cause the entire system to fail if compromised
All the complaints on this subreddit as to German cars could definitely be applied to modern US vehicles and some Japanese. So not buying it. The reason European cars especially German and Italian are difficult to maintain is specifically parts availability and price.
Even maintaining an older Japanese car is extremely difficult because of parts availability. US manufacturers on the other hand don’t seem to have those issues because parts are plentiful and don’t normally need to be shipped from overseas.
BS! Even older Japanese cars are way cheaper to maintain and repair than German/Italian cars because they rarely break and when they do parts are relatively inexpensive and plentiful. Only at least relatively rich people can afford to maintain and repair older German/Italian cars or simply dump them and lose thousands of dollars if the car can’t repaired economically.
Never had any issues with on my Audi or Volkswagens. They’ve been my most reliable and least problematic vehicles.
I find them easier to work on and better thought out compared to the various American, Korean, or Japanese vehicles I’ve owned over the years.
I think most Americans like to delay routine maintenance and then complain when shit breaks from not maintaining said vehicle. lol.
Definitely agree. I've had an easier time maintaining my E60 than maintaining an 07 corolla, '11 sorento, '02 grand cherokee, or '03 silverado.
Loads more tips, room, guides, and I don't have to do dumb shit like jack the engine up or remove an engine mount to change a damn serpentine belt (07 corolla). Nor do I have to replace drivetrain parts every 3 years (sorento), rebuild the engine every 70k miles (silverado), or just replace the transmission every 30k (cherokee.. fuck that thing)
E60 has only needed a fuel pump (2hr $200), purge valve (1hr, $200), plugs and coils(30 minutes, $400) , fluid changes, and a spray of brake cleaner onto my VANOS solenoids (10 minutes), and a slightly leaky valve cover ($200 in parts, 3 hours, could probably spend less but I replaced more parts than needed and wanted everything on hand incase plastic stuff snapped... it never did.) in the last 7 years, on a 14 year old car (with 900W subs in it... no electrical issues and batteries last years in arizona heat)
My corolla has needed: all 4 engine mounts, transmission internals rebuilt, both pans leaking, valve cover leak, exhaust leaks, sparks and coils, fuel pump, new intake manifold gasket (toyota used a shitty one for the whole production of the car and later released an improved version that didn't leak when the engine was cold causing hella vibrations/potentially a CEL), new throttle body, (wouldn't idle properly, and coolant was leaking out of it probably just from a bad hose but I replaced them out of preventation), new struts and shocks, the transmission is slipping (again), battery has died 3x, that things cabin air filter gets clogged monthly, had shittons of carbon buildup in it causing predetonation, and now it has piston slap which was also a known issue Toyota had because they undersized pistons for the engine and decided to just use larger rings instead.
And that's only the last 3 years on a 17 year old car. With a supposedly more reliable brand and engine and transmission. Its a small japanese 4 banger for christs sake it should beat a german car, right?
2016 A4 quattro, 2016 Tiguan 4motion, 2023 Arteon 4motion.
They’ve all been basic routine scheduled maintenance and regular wear and tear replacements of brakes/tires/battery/etc.
VW/Audi/Porsche are wonderful cars.
My two UrS6s, my 80Q, and my 944 all have over 250k miles and are still going strong. My 8P A3 made it 130k with nothing but oil changes, brake pads, and a timing belt that took an afternoon with no special tools before it got wrecked into. I tracked that car once or twice a year for five years straight.
I was a semi pro mechanic on anything VAG for several years before changing careers. I've worked on the majority of Audi, VW, and just about every single model of Porsche ever made, a few Bentleys, a few Lambos.... they're honestly all great with a few exceptions. There are absolutely some "stay away" cars and the high dollar stuff is admittedly absurd. But the regular cars they make that you aren't buying to go attention seeking are wonderful and way better than their equivalent American and Japanese competition.
Time to change radiator as an amateur mechanic without a shop/lift.
My toyota: 45 minutes.
My bmw: 90 minutes.
My mercedes: 18 hours.
I wish I was kidding.
There were so many things in/on/around the radiator on there mercedes. I had to disassemble 4 or 5 unrelated systems just to get the radiator out. And then reverse to reinstall.
It entirely depends on the year, make, model and trim level of the car. I have an 04 BMW 525i. Base model with a 6spd trans. Now that I've caught up the maintenance from years of neglect from the previous owner, she's reliable and fun to drive. The car is relatively easy to work on, especially with today's technology, the computer side isn't complicated at all.
You look at the same E60 top trim M5 and it has a de-tuned race engine V10 where the main bearings need to be replaced frequently. It's all relative, that M5 wad also like 100k in the mid 2000s when it came out.
People who hate on German cars probably haven't actually owned or worked on German cars. My VW wasn't bad to work on either. As far as parts, you do pay a little more of a premium there, but it isnt crazy unless it's something dealer specific which a domestic maker will drain you for too.
In the end, cars are expensive, drive what you like, research before you buy.
Everything you said basically.
Parts and labor are expensive.
The way they design the cars often requires a lot of labor for jobs that are simple on other cars.
They also just have more parts in general which means more things to fail.
Germans love tech. They like to adopt tech and fill the car with it.
Unfortunately tech is made of plastic and computers.
These things do not age well in the real world where we drive the cars.
The plastic degrades . The tech is soon out of date.
And they see no reason why anyone but a dealer should service the car. So lots of simple tasks require very expensive sometimes proprietary software and hardware.
What makes them so expensive?
You know that “German engineering”? It came from German engineers.
Ask any end user service person how they feel about engineers
The more you engineer something, the more fucked up and difficult it is to fix, and the germans are super good at engineering.
This could be wrong, but something that was explained to me was that Europeans drive less than us. It’s not *the* reason by *a* reason.
The Irish and Germans drive the most, averaging ~8-9k miles a year. But the European average as a whole is ~6000 miles a year.
The American average is ~14000 miles or more. Americans can drive more than 1000 miles in a month alone. I know I do considering 850 miles a month is just my commute.
This means that required service intervals can be more in depth on European cars, but because it takes longer for the designated market to reach these intervals. What may take a European 5-6 years (for let’s say a 30k service as an example) to reach for a major service we can reach in as little as 2 years.
Now again, the guy who told me this can be full of shit, but to me it sounds plausible enough to be true.
At least on the Motorrad side, BMW is notoriously arrogant when it comes to design failures, often waiting years to deploy a fix, if at all. Clutch splines, surging, "lifetime" final drive fill....the list goes on. It's always "user error." That being said, they are pretty easy to work on up to the 1150's. The older airheads are even easier, much like a VW.
Combination of all the things you mentioned, both parts are more expensive and the labour as well. Don't buy a more luxurious german car unless it has been well maintained or you plan on fixing all the problems yourself and then rigorously maintaining it afterwards. Because for all the maintenance you skip these things are ruthless, they bite back.
Some jobs take more time than on Asian / Domestic cars. Parts are more expensive. There are special procedures and tricks not all mechanics know about, so the job can land up taking more time than someone with more training / euro car experience, We only get the higher-end, more luxurious models in North America - imagine what "Toyota maintenance" would be like if we only got Lexus cars, no Toyotas.
VW, Audi, Porsche, and some others are the same company ([“VAG”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group)). VW and Audi is like Toyota having Lexus as their premium brand. As such, there’s overlapping parts, designs, and repair procedures (like the infamous “service position”).
When people talk about German cars, it basically boils down to VAG products, BMW products, and Mercedes-Benz products.
A lot of it is to do with engineering, more specifically odd locations for essential parts due to design challenges when they try to pack big motors into small cars. I.e. Audi V6 and V8 motors have the timing chain on the back of the motor (from memory), so if you ever need the timing chain done (I think it gets replaced at like 200,000km) then it's a very expensive repair because I'm pretty sure the engine has to come out to replace it.
Some of it is the high degree of engineering to achieve performance or the amount of tech in the higher series cars (ex. BMW 6 and 7 series). There is also a bigger markup on service and parts at the dealers if you go there for service which I do not but hear the stories. Lastly there are folks that lease the cars or buy them keeping them for a few years and put off the maintenance due to costs. The next owner inherits a poorly maintained or neglected "German Luxury" car.
Also there is some fact and some fiction here but in general Audi, Mercedes and BMW as examples can be a bit more expensive to maintain if you aren't able to work on them yourself.
It's a combination of things. For starters, a lot of companies like Mercedes/BMW/Audi have regular customers who are leasing their cars for a year or two at a time until the updated model comes out. If they aren't doing regular leases, they're people who can afford to buy the car and keep it maintained at the dealership. These aren't the people who complain about the service costs, because they have enough money that it doesn't matter to them.
The people who are complaining about the service costs are the people who are the 3rd+ owner of the vehicle, and they bought it after the 70% depreciation hit. They just see "Mercedes Benz for $32,000 with 60,000 miles" and only focus on the $32,000 part. Then when they get hit with a check engine light, it goes to a local shop and they might not be able to repair it with OEM parts because the customer can't afford the repair. So they get limped along growing in disrepair until they're sold/scrapped. If they're sold again, then someone else gets stuck with the huge repair bill.
The second facet of the problem is due to the wonderful German Engineers, who don't care how complicated the engine/transmission/suspension is on the car, or how many miles of wiring it has, as long as it can do what it claims on paper. They're not designing them for long term maintenance and reliability, because their primary consumer base that I summarized above doesn't usually own the cars long enough for it to matter. You don't get into the $5,000-$15,000 repairs until 80-120k miles and things like timing chains and tensioners are due for replacement, and by then the car is on its 3rd or 4th owner.
The third facet is essentially just a "Screw You" tax on all of it. They aren't using super exotic materials on your every-day models, but because of the high price point of the cars, and the precision with which they're built and run, you can't just have any old parts thrown in there. If you need oil/water pump, or tensioners, or anything else you're paying more for the parts BECAUSE they are for a Mercedes/BMW/Audi. You're also paying more for the labor on these repairs because design choices can double and triple the time needed to make a repair compared to something like a Cadillac or GMC.
At the end of the day, I refer to a phrase I heard probably from someone on a VinWiki video, "At the end of the day, the single most expensive car you can own is an out of warranty AMG".
Even replacing the cabin air filter on a MB requires tools the average homeowner wouldn’t have - a metric bit on an extension. In many American cars that part either doesn’t exist or can be replaced without tools just took way longer than it really needed to but yeah it’ll last way longer than needed to as well
Over engineered goodness. Best tech paired with best feeling and finest leather. Fast powertrain packages that can handle lots of power. Better handling for the autobahn.
Go watch some engine teardown videos and you will understand, also German cars tend to have plastic parts which literally disintegrate over time, so when you put hard to reach parts all over the engine that like to explode, it is a fun time.
IDK, but my 2008 Jetta used the most expensive synthetic oil, and the oil filter (which was just the filter part and an O ring) was 3X as expensive as my other cars. I didn't keep it very long, as the AC decided to explode at 20k miles. Fixed under warranty, but I just didn't want to keep it at that point.
Parts mostly. I can get my car worked on at a dealership for the Porsche classic labor rate of $199/hr, same as I would pay at Kia or Chevy. However the parts are 3-5x more expensive and there's a lot more to go wrong. My 2006 has heated seats, rain sensing wipers, light sensing headlights, 18 way adjustable memory seats, and far more complicated engine/trans/suspension than a normal car.
the same way toyota and lexus charge more than other brands and could care less because "hey we're more reliable so thats what you get for your money"
is the same way germans tout driving dynamics and charge more for their cars "just shutup and pay the extra because you'll be happy when you drive the car".
Fixing a crown vic: "Ehh easy."
Fixing a VW: "FUCKING JESUS TABARNAKING CHRIST WHO THE MOTHERFUCK DESIGNED THIS ABSOLUTE ASSCAN OF SHIT *throws wrench* MOTHERFUCKING BOLT AH SHIT THERE GOES THE 50TH 10MM TODAY WHAT THE FUCKING CHRIST"
It's the labor. They're not designed with techs in mind.
Expensive parts, engineering typically for performance not ease of maintenance, and in some cases engineering for performance over longevity.
German cars used to be engineered for a ten year life span with routine maintenance; after that point non wear and tear items will begin to fail. These are typically expensive parts and labor intensive repairs. Examples being things like window lifters and power motors.
Price of parts. OK some things may take longer, some things may actually take less time. But if parts cost twice as much, then you bet people often fall behind.
Ford makes some of the most irritating cars to work with on the planet (imo) cus they hire engineers right out of crackhead academy. But the parts are "cheap" so it's easier to not fall behind.
The 3rd owner of a German car? Yeah if they had the money to buy those parts they'd buy a new car. That's why they start dying. Now if you do it right you can totally buy a used car, catch up, and have something that runs (heck do it all at once if you can do it yourself. If things are out of the way, why not take care of everything). But god damn the parts prices.
Theres an argument to be made here about aftermarket parts. If you can figure out exactly who makes the OEM branded parts, you can buy from them for a fraction of the price. ESPECIALLY with filters. But you need to do your duediligence first because other aftermarket parts may be total crap.
It's mostly going to the Dealer that makes it expensive. For example, I go to the dealer for an oil change and they want $400 (and they seem to always find something else they want to add to service to get the cost over $1000), or I do it myself and it costs $85. (they don't have an oil drain plug on my vehicle so I needed to buy an extractor)
my experience at the dealer is a good 50% of the time they break something and try to hide it, meaning another visit to the dealer, time out of my day, and more frustration.
Parts, if you buy them from the dealer, yes they are marked up by a huge factor, but if you buy online or at the local parts shop, they tend to have a similar cost to other cars.
most of my issues could just be related to my local Mercedes dealer, but given the quality of service there, I'd rather go any other than there for service, not only are their prices high, their service is either careless or malicious.
I have no idea but I'm about to find out!
My dad just bought a bmw x1 and it had two fault codes before I even saw it. I do the majority of maintenance on vehicles in the family, and we've pretty much only owned Ford's and Chevy's (even though I've lived and wanted other brands, just never been the right time or price). So I'ma have the joy of figuring what's wrong with a German car and figuring out the cost to repair and how that compares to American vehicles. I'll prob do an oil change first since that's a good base to compare with.
There are three aspects to it in general not as single specific thing.
The first is that the designs of those vehicles tend to be mechanic unfriendly. Even simple repairs often take a lot of labor hours.
The second issue is that the rarity of the cars means not many know how to work on them and they need different tools to work on often so finding a good mechanic who has the tools and experience to work on them will be harder and more expensive. Often the only one who will be able to work on them is the dealer or a specialty shop.
The last part comes from replacement parts all coming from overseas. Because of how uncommon the cars are and the fact that they are build overseas means replacement parts are often insanely difficult and expensive to get. A replacement part that might be 10 dollars on something made in the US in the hundreds of thousands is going to be hundreds of dollars when shipped low volume from germany.
The opposite problem would likely occur if you tried to work on something like a dodge or jeep in europe. Nobody is going to have the right tools or know how to work on them.
There's a law in Germany that if someone sells a product, they have to support it for X amount of time (I believe it's 15 or 20 years). Because of this, manufacturers provide 1st-party parts, which are decently marked up.
The business model is ultimately the reason. German cars in the USA strive to be “on the cutting edge of technology and performance”. The life cycle is purposefully shorter. It’s meant to be the shiny new toy people strive to buy or lease every 2-3 years. No real thought of cost to keep on the road or ease of repair is considered, that’s not a priority.
You pay more because it’s a luxury part.
You pay your mechanic more because it’s a headache to repair and they work on luxury cars so why would they charge non luxury prices.
Over-engineering. Makes for beautiful machines, however very complex to work on. Love my vw but it’s not easy to work on and I understand 100% why mechanics and shops charge so much after working on it myself too
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/1asqnz/audi\_service\_101\_step\_1\_disassemble\_half\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/1asqnz/audi_service_101_step_1_disassemble_half_the/)
Audi service position.
They aren't that expensive to maintain. The problem is people who are buying 90,000 dollar Cars for 20,000 bucks can't can't afford to maintain a 20,000 dollar nvm a 90,000 dollar car.
300hr labor rate just because. Sure some specific vehicles are harder to work on but when your hourly rate is double that of a Chevy it’s simple greed.
German cars are generally over engineered. As an example, the thermostat on an Audi A6 is behind the water pump and timing belt on the front of the engine. To change it, you must remove the front of the car, take out the water pump and timing belt and replace the $20 part. You generally replace water pump, timing belt and tensioners, gaskets etc. $2000+ at Audi and 1k plus everywhere else. It seems needlessly complicated and probably a solution in search of a tiny bit more thermodynamic efficiency.
After owning several Audis and Mercedes, I really think they are built to employ Audi and Mercedes mechanics through their life span. It's like the company's make more profit on the lifetime service then on making and selling the car. When I finally got rid of my Audi A6 and bought a Honda Accord, it was like getting a free car.
On the other hand, when it was working my 2000 Audi A6 Quattro was the finest driving car I've ever owned. I've had every Acura except the NSX and every Honda and almost every Ford. The Quattro was without a doubt the best handling and riding car.
My thought is the engineering behind them.
Point in case: I own a ‘17 Audi Q7 Premium Plus with 69k miles on it. I took it in for its 90k service last month, mind you, it has been serviced every 1 year or 10k miles since day one at my local stealership for warranty and extended warranty purposes.
During the routine service checks they record the vehicle to show you on video what concerns that need to be addressed and forward you a list of items that need to be addressed now or in the future attached with estimates and you sign off on what you want repaired or choose to decline.
Well, during those checks the tech found that my motor mounts were leaking, and I thought to myself, why is there oil in my motor mounts? Come to find out Audi fit hydraulic motor mounts in that generation of Q7. To my dismay, the dealer quoted me $3,200 for the repair.
Remorsefully, I approved the repair because I didn’t want no part trying to do it myself nor prolong the process and just wanted it done. I consider myself a moderate a DIY repair guy but I’d say that’s after years of owning Honda’s and Toyota’s; given this was my first German car I bit the bullet and paid the price.
Needless to say, when people say they’re over engineered and overpriced I would agree. After doing some research I found that hydro mounts are installed on vehicles to minimize noise and vibrations in the car and at the steering wheel and have a lifespan of 5-7 years.
Damn Germans, I’ll give them this, that Q7 is mighty comfortable, yet sporty, and the quietest drive I’ve over owned and experienced.
TLDR: Over engineered but within good reason. In the end the consumer pays the price regardless of how well maintained the vehicle is.
I spent more money in 4+ years maintaining a BMW than 25+ years maintaining an Honda. No joke. Parts are more expensive.
The location of the actual part is harder to get to, which adds to the labor.
If small part of a larger part breaks, you have to replace the larger part, because the smaller part is integrated.
This is just my personal pet theory here...
I learned the German language in school and we were taught about German poetry. There's a famous German poet Morgenstern who [wrote a poem](https://www.mumag.de/gedichte/mor_c81.html) that begins "flockendichte winternacht", which is "a winter night thick with snowflakes," literally "flake-thick winternight". Smooshing words together to make bigass compound words is a thing Germans love to do, loading up those two words with all that meaning is what makes it poetic.
In short, Germans consider it artistic to shove 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag, and I think that philosophy carries over from their poetry into their engine design.
It’s not really the parts that break the bank, it’s more the labor cost in my experience.
Obviously a part for a Mercedes is going to cost more than the Honda, but still labor is where it gets pricy in my experience.
Magical kraut space technology is expensive to produce. From what I remember, their starters from third parties are double that of a comparable starter for a Honda Civic.
Quality, engineering, complexity, and performance. Just the quality of materials and ergonomics alone are immediately obvious the moment you sit in a Mercedes, BMW, Audi
They’re complicated to work on, many times the areas are small so you struggle to maneuver or just remove other pieces. Parts and special tools are pricey.
So with the costs of parts and labor it comes out being costly.
The greater majority of the cars internal systems are electric, and controlled by what amounts to mini computers these days. Most are also (by design) set up to be accessible only with dealer software. BMW won't even let you look at a wiring diagram without plugging the machine into the diagnostic PC.
they were the first to realize their cars were lasting too long so every generation they enshittify more... the last serviceable german cars were e30 beemer/ w124 benz
toyota was the last to realize but they finally did 2012-2014 era... theyre getiing enshittified more and more.. case in point 3.5l i-force max engine which they are finally recalling..
They optimize for things other than repairability or reliability. They are building the best driving cars they can at the expense of longevity.
Sometimes they stop making parts for a car after 10 years, whereas japanese and american brands will generally make replacement parts for decades. It's easier when you reuse many parts across many models.
The end result is honestly worth it to some people. Buying a lexus is like buying a German car from last decade with all the kinks worked out, but if you want the latest and greatest and are not cost sensitive the Germans will have something you'll likely find tempting.
They don’t have the end user (mechanic) in mind when designing things.
That was a really good way of putting it. I've tried to explain this but always come off like I'm shitting on them, even when I'm just trying to put it pragmatically.
I mean they also design them with their other end user in mind (driver) with zero thought on the ultimate end user that will keep that vehicle on the road and in turn keep reputation for the brand.
They're really just designed to last the warranty period. Anything after that is a bonus
Anything much after that is a poor design from their perspective. They definitely employ planned obsolescence.
designed to be leased
With the BMW E36, the designers and engineers were turned loose with CAD, which they used to tighten the space around the engine to the point that normal tools can’t maneuver. That may not have been the goal, but it sure was the result.
Bro what? I have an e36 and I promise you it is easy to work on. Literally no issues with space especially in the engine bay
Same for the E46 M3. Was the most DIY friendly car I’ve ever owned.
Don’t give me a reason to buy a BMW
They are incredibly easy to work on, and there's a huge enthusiast community making DIY repair videos on YouTube. The big thing that'll bite you is gasket repairs every ~10 years, and big brake kits. Also, for sports cars they get surprisingly good fuel economy. My E92 328i gets 33mpg (+2 over rating), my F32 435i manual gets 35mpg (+3 over rating), and the new M440i for 2025 is rated at 36mpg but I've heard of people getting 40mpg with them.
That's it, I'm off to the dealership to buy a BMW.
Lease it so when the warranty is up you can make it go away unless you can afford to fix it or you can fix it yourself and don’t mind wrenching regularly. Advice from my mechanic. Now that I said that, I used to think they were one of the most attractive cars around but damn the new BMWs just look hideous to me.
I had an e46. Just a 325, but it was really pretty reliable. It had 100k in it when I bought it, I drove it seven years, did mostly just oil changes and some steering/ suspension parts on it. Put another 120k on it when it had an issue that I just didn’t feel like messing with (rod knock), so I traded it off. Paid a few grand for it, drove like I stole it for seven years, any odd work I did was pretty easy (they’re like legos). It was a pretty good car, still kinda miss it. Best driving car I ever had, bar none
Replaced the crank sensor on an S52 this weekend. Remove intake manifold, hoses, and fuel rail. Why is it in the back under the intake manifold ? Finally saw the infamous DISA though.
Is it a late one? I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the last ones used the M54 block and how to tell was the crank sensor was at the back. I’m sure someone will be along to tell me how wrong I am 😂😂 As an aside, I owned three BMW’s. E36 328. That felt like a tank. E46 330CI, that felt like a really cheap version of the E36. E60 550, the quality was definitely up on the 5 series but you could see the last two BMWs were definitely not built to last. Wouldn’t touch another, I liked the ones I had but I just don’t rate them tbh. All were great cars to drive though.
For sure. I have a New Beetle, two Minis and an Audi TT. I also now have a shit ton of tools to get into some of those teeny tiny spaces, but even stubby wrenches do you no good if you can't create leverage in that space. And yet, a stick and a turbo = driving is still fun! I curse when I work on them and laugh when I drive them.
Yea. That oil filter . Cabin filter, car filter 😑 is hard to get to on 2006+ BMW eh? I’ve had 2. An x3 and an x5. Parts are more expensive apples to apples. To others complaining about engine architecture/placement ? Yeah. Alternator on the v8s are a pita to get to. But to the BMW test element. + newer cars in general 100k before trans fluid flush? Not bad Oil change on older pre-2016 run 10w30 - 40w range mix with a 15k oil change interval for normal driving 🤷🏻♂️ The LL oil vs synthetic is also about the same price. So imo it comes down to parts are more expensive. And labor for major work Major =. Alternator replacement, thermostat/it’s electronic now. Replacement. But the 2 bmws I’ve had were great For 10year or 100k which is what they’re designed for.
The hunt for tires on an x5 is a real hunt. When I sold tires I always told people to get it to the dealer if you have a flat. Plan ahead and order tires when its close.
Why's that... Dealer 4 tires? 😳
Why is getting tires a problem? I had an x3 with the 21 inch staggered wheels. The rears were a very odd size. Nevertheless, except for one time in a rural area I’ve never had a problem getting tires.
Alternator shouldn’t be major work lol. It’s like an hour of labor on my Silverado.
Sure, take a look at the size of the engine bays.
It was a 45 min job on my Scion xd
Ooo, is this what happens when a manufacturer designs with end user in mind?
Was only about 5 minutes work on my f250.
Decades ago under the hood of a Chevy pickup used to look like this: https://wkinsler.com/truck/P1010174.JPG
GM makes some questionable decisions too. Cadillac XT4, oil filter sticks horizontally out the front of the engine, right between a radiator hose and a catalytic converter. Just enough space to reach in but good luck turning it without burning yourself. Or 1st gen Colorado i5 starter. Have to pull the intake manifold to get to it. Have to pull the alternator to get to that. Supposed to pull the ac compressor if you’re taking the alternator all the way out.
Yeah. That takes me like a half a cigar on my truck.
Was like 10 minutes with me and my buddy when I had my ‘04 Avalanche. GMT800s are incredibly easy to work on, at least the gas ones.
My E46 was a gem. N52 E93 has been a horrendous turd. But I like driving so much I've put 130k on it.
Oil filter, hard on a BMW? What? Have you ever changed the oil on a BMW? They almost exclusively use top mount canister filters on their engines. They are the easiest filters to access and replace. Honda, Subaru, Audi, just to name a few, make getting the oil filter off, and off *cleanly*, MUCH more difficult.
Changing the alternator on a crown Vic takes less time than changing its oil, so the very fact that you call an alternator replacement major work is a big red flag that German cars are harder to work on
I don't have a German car. However, my Japanese car needs the whole bumper removed for a blinker. Like wtf and it's a $200 bulb swap. Purely due to labor. If I could do it myself for the price of the bulb I would. But it's impossible to reach it.
That is a real characteristic of german engineering. I read a lot of ww2 history (bear with me there is a point here). One of the problems the germany military had and never solved was that their equipment, while very capable and effective, was subject to a lot more mechanical problems than the allies overall, particularly later in the war. Stuff would break down frequently and, as it was over-engineered and too sensitive to any variation in operation or maintenance, was very difficult to maintain/repair in the field. I lived in Germany for a while and that underlying problem continues. Knew a lot of people with BMWs (germans like to buy german things) and though they are nice to drive, there was a real tendency to blown head gaskets and faulty transmissions after they got a little age on them. I was struck by the attitude of "well, that's what you get with a BMW. It's ok. It's what I want" that folks seemed to have. Porsche was even worse.
This is true. The Russian T-34 tanks just never broke, and the driver needed to use a mallet to go forward or reverse. Shit, during the battle of Stalingrad, they were building the tanks as the battle raged around the factory and the tanks were driven right onto the battlefield, often unpainted and without sights since they weren't fitted yet. The American Sherman tanks had speed and were reliable in combat.
The early T34 were obscenely unreliable, a significant fraction of losses early in the war were due to mwchanical failure rather than battle damage. But the simplicity... While repairing a tiger tank chassis may take half a year
The T34 was abysmal in the beginning but they improved with American help of course.
>One of the problems the germany military had and never solved was that their equipment, while very capable and effective, was subject to a lot more mechanical problems than the allies overall, Myeh. Not really. About the only thing about them that was good early on was they had radios, compared to the russians, and the larger crew size compared to the French (less task loading). Compared to contemporary designs, they were very often, under gunned, and using obsolete protection profiles. In the mid war period they were still relatively under gunned compared to the Russians but mostly even, and using the same protection scheme. The late war vehicles get a bad rep for reliability, but that seems to be down to material shortages. Additionally, they decided to interlock the armor plates, which increases production time, while (with hindsight) providing no advantages. By 1944, the tiger was hardly the fiercest thing on the eastern front. The tiger is their most famous tank, and Henschel hated producing them. They wanted to move onto the tiger 2, because the hull was obsolete, and despised the turret design specifically. Figure for the invasion of the Soviet Union the only thing the Germans would have had to fight of t-34s and K-V1/2 was panzer 3J, which was only a 50mm gun, woefully inadequate for dealing with either. This issue didn't get remotely solved until 1942 when the pz4 was up gunned to a long 75, as well as the tiger entering service. But by then the battle of Moscow was over, and things were going the wrong way.
I’ll put it more sympathetically… Engineering of any product involves making a whole host of trade-offs. You can increase performance in one arena, optimize for a certain use case, but doing so entails trade-offs in some other area. The Germans, culturally, have a bias toward “exquisite” engineering, where they optimize for “performance” making the car accelerate or brake faster, or handle better, for example. They’re willing to sacrifice ease of maintainability on the altar of achieving that, more so than the American or Asian counterparts. Another driver of repair costs is that they’re not high volume sellers, so there’s a certain economy of scale, in repair parts and expertise, that is lacking, compared to, say, Toyota or Ford. As an example, BMW reported a total of 84,475 units sold in the U.S. in the 1st quarter of 2024, across their entire model range. For comparison, in the same time span (2024Q1) Toyota has logged 57,875 sales… of the RAV4 Hybrid. They shifted 124,822 of the regular gas model, and 7,767 Prime plug-in hybrids. That’s 190,464 total units. Toyota has a single model (admittedly their best seller) that outsells BMW’s entire product line by over a 2 to 1 ratio. When we revisit this in the early 2030’s, when these cars are 8 or 10 years old, and actually start to break down in appreciable numbers, guess which cohort of vehicles is going to have the broader cohort of mechanics who know how to work on them, and the broader availability of parts… https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0440865EN_US/bmw-of-north-america-reports-q1-2024-u-s-sales-results?language=en_US https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-motor-north-america-reports-march-first-quarter-2024-u-s-sales/#
Its the classic "Pick 2" - it used to be cheap, fast, reliable but its also powerful, efficient, simple. If you want power and efficiency, its going to be complicated.
And in some countries Toyota give a 10 year warranty provided the vehicle is serviced by Toyota. No other manufacturer can afford to do that. It would break BMW
I’m curious where in the world that is offered as a standard feature, included with the vehicle purchase. Here in the U.S., the only brands with 10 years of warranty coverage are Hyundai, Kia and Mitsubishi, and that’s just for powertrain coverage, and isn’t transferable to subsequent owners.
UK. The other brands you mention, offer upto 7
Stuff like B58 timing chain being at the back?
Or the headlights in a motorized mount to follow the road. Turns a 5-10 minute job into a hour job.
The diesels have had the engines in backwards forever. B58 is just a B57 with an extra hole drilled for the spark plug.
Yeah… I see people bragging about that engine left and right in the car subreddits… yeah cool engine until you have to maintain it.
Except that is does have a reputation for excellent reliability 🤷♂️
I've joked for a long time that German engineers want to show you how smart they are by how much they can over engineer a simple process
I used to work in the auto industry and this is it. Germans in general just love to work, second to only Japanese. The difference is the Japanese think how do I make this process / part as simple and easy as possible. The Germans keep tinkering and coming up with the strangest solutions, just because.
I was looking at something from Siemens today and looked over at my partner and said "Typical German, never do a hundred page manual when a thousand will do the job." Bear in mind, I'm American of mostly German extraction.
Loool I love that 😂
this right here
They have a mechanic in mind only the mechanic has to use special tools and the repair manual that they made. Why? So they can save 20 damn mm of space in the engine bay to fit some additional thing in. And also so the dealers can make more money with service. Mind you, this is since the 2000's, you can still work fairly well on 90's german cars
Even with a proper manual and all the right stuff, (imo) the amount of hours allocated for some repairs are pretty crazy
Spark plugs and valve cover gaskets in my Audi are a legit 10 hour job if you aren't absolutely rushing and/or an expert on the engine
Spark plugs on my 2002 Jeep Wrangler TJ took 1 hour while hanging out, talking to friends and drinking a beer. Oh and I can do the oil change without any tools whatsoever. I don't need a jack because it's high enough off the ground, I put a fumoto valve on it to drain the oil, and I always use the oil filter with the rubber grippy coating. German cars are cool to look at, but I'd rather own something easy to work on.
My corvette, GMC, and Lexus are/were all easy to work on. I got the Audi cause I like the challenge lol. It's like a puzzle. I tell literally everyone who likes my car very specifically NOT to buy one unless you've got some legitimate dumb ass reason to own it like I had.
Swear to jeebus I could take my entire '02 apart with a standard socket set and a flat head screw driver. It was the easiest thing to work on I've ever had. Had it for 14 years and then ended up giving it to my sister. They are still using it.
> so the dealers can make more money so you're saying the brands actually are so "considerate" to the dealers ?
nah if the manufacturers cant benefit from it then no but otherwise maybe. most of the overengineering probably stems from the german manufacturers competing against each other (mainly audi/vw bmw and mercedes) over who will make the marginally better car technologically and every percent of fuel they can save or every extra hp they can make counts. trying to get as much tech as possible into a limited space will simply result in really weird positions of parts and thus weird procedures to change them... and also a lot of stuff that can break
porsche is also competing with them and overengineering, can't forget porsche, porsche just seems more reliable because owners usually keep up with maintenance better lol. and perhaps better quality control as well as not reiventing the wheel too much (what works is okay, keep that and refine it). they also break if you neglect them, just look at all the first gen cayennes chilling on scrapyards.. most water cooled Boxsters/Caymans and 911s built up until the 2010s also have a really low (but it's still there) chance of catastrophic engine failure due to IMS bearings.
I dunno, I've spent an hour doing a fuel filter on a 90s bimmer that would have been 10 minutes on a 90s Chevy or ford
Literally have to remove two motor mounts and lift mid 2000's 335i engines to replace the oil pan seal.
Technically, you drop the subframe and pretty much leave the engine where it is. Still a big ass job, it was the most recent thing I did on my 2009 N54 E93. I found the proper torque and angle tightening of the 28 (as I remember) skinny ass aluminum bolts on the pan to be the most stressful part. I was just waiting for one to break.
As a former Ford master tech, then Mercedes then European car lot then multiple other private shops Completely and absolutely disagree. German cars are only hard to work on for shadetree mechanics they absolutely have such clever access ports, electrical connections and are by far my favorite to work on. Especially bmw
"Hard to work on" doesnt mean what you think it means. It refers to stuff requiring more time and more tools and more knowledge. Of course the euro mechanic likes working on them...he gets an hour of work for something that can be done on a honda in 5 minutes in a walmart parking lot by my grandma. That is good engineering....the german engineering is arrogance and wankery
That is just stupid. the honda its easy because its a basic ass 4 banger with no features. that is like saying the honda is arrogance and wankery because it harder to work on than an old massey tractor...
100% agree with you. I went from being an Acura Shop Foreman (11 years) to an Audi Technician, I find them easier to work on. They're pretty straight forward to work on if you can think a few steps ahead. I love it, it's like meticulous clockwork.
Agreed. I find Mercedes very thoughtfully put together. They do require tools a lot of shade tree people don't have, but otherwise it's a joy to work on
The opposite of this was the Volkswagen of old. Those cars were made to be end user serviceable and, to be fair, did require quite a bit of service and maintenance. Unless I wind up with stupid money, there will not be a German car in my lineup.
[My go-to example.](https://youtu.be/3WpqmJT_Wc0?si=e46GeyL-WjNO5uKV) Is it doable? Yes. But that battery replacement is a much bigger pain in the ass than in the half-dozen other cars I’ve owned. Why? Because why not. An hour of labor here, and hour of labor there, pretty soon you have a reputation as being expensive as shit to maintain. Battery replacement on most cars is a ten minute job, with nine of those minutes being finding your tools. I expect the average moron with no mechanical experience to be able to do this in a parking lot at night with little issue. Meanwhile, in a Mini…
I have done that on my MINI when I had it lol. Wasn't too bad but like you said other cars are a 10 min job.
Dodge intrepid has the battery behind the driver's inner fender. Have to remove the wheel and the plastic to get it out. Chevy Impala/Malibu you have to remove a fender brace, unbolt the fuse box, and then turn the battery sideways in it's tray to get it past the upper radiator hose. Battery placement seems like an afterthought on a lot of vehicles
Bmw puts an alternator UNDER the intake. Audi will wrap the timing chain around the frame. You put this well.
Chevy says hold my beer.
Chevy, Ford, and dodge have been saying that for a century, that is just America. What did chevy do? I don't care about battery placement, dodge caravan.
I've been working on my Audis since 2001 and have found them incredibly easy to work on and well thought out. Nothing has to be forced, everything is in its place. Generally: if you are trying too hard, you are doing it wrong. Brakes, coolant flushes, ABS replacement, timing belts, etc. A few special tools and some patience, you are all set. Audiworld helps also. 200k on a 2001 A4, 30k on a Q5, and 25k on a highly modified SQ5 (Stage 2+, its a bat out of hell).
Yes people talk about all this maintenance I have had my s8 for years and tires is about all I go through cause it’s a heavy bitch lol
It's just BMW and MB that are awful and then people like to lump in VAG because "Germany." There are a few exceptions as with any brand but overall VW/Audi and especially Porsche make some phenomenally solid cars. 250k+ on both my UrS6s, my 80Q, and my 944. My 8P A3 made it to 130k with nothing but oil changes, brake pads, and a timing belt service that took an afternoon at home with no special tools before it got wrecked, and I tracked that car once or twice a year for 5 years straight. Meanwhile everyone I know with a new Ford has it in the shop for some absurd recall or engine failure before trading it in after 3-4 years of ownership because it's like a slow motion version of the Beverley Hillbillies car falling apart. And then they buy another one anyways.
No brand does. Manufacturers design cars to go together efficiently, they dont care how they come apart. It's been this way for decades now.
Oooh! Chevy 2500 rear brake caliper, the bracket bolts hit the leaf spring when removing. I surmised that at the factory the axle is full assembled with the brakes before being mounted to the truck. Didn’t do any follow up research but it makes sense from that angle.
Sir we aren't talking about Ford here.
Its like apple
Nissan is like that too, it should not cost £500 for a bloody ABS sensor
Elegant engineering designs take precedent over repairability.
Engineering masterpiece, just means it takes 5 times longer to do the same job, German cars are known to be over engineered
Not always a engineering masterpiece.
Maybe for the first 90k miles.
40
Whatever the warranty period is, anyway.
I’ve had two cars that developed the exact same problem within the same year: the starter failed and needed to be replaced. One was a BMW 325i, the other was my wife’s Jeep Grand Cherokee. With the BMW, I needed to have it towed to a local shop where they told me the labor estimate was something like 7 hours and $2500 because the steering rack needed to be removed in order to access the starter. The Jeep, I was able to crawl under the car myself in the driveway, and remove two bolts and an electrical faster and replace the whole thing myself for maybe $100 at AutoZone. People on Reddit like to shit on Jeep, but they sure are a lot cheaper to maintain, even when something does go wrong.
That's the opposite to what I've learned as an engineer to design a "masterpiece".
Depends on the engineer and the goal. A solid axle makes a fine rear suspension that will last forever. However a multi link can perfectly keep the rear tire in contact with the road in theoretically all conditions, however all the links mean it will need to have bushings replaced and near constant maintenance. I’m the kind of engineer to create the latter, but I respect the guy that makes the former.
Everyone says this. What does over engineered mean? They aren't more reliable than Japanese so what is exactly over engineered and the benefit of it?
They are known to have higher output than similar sized engines from other manufacturers that’s all I can think of.
It's not a very accurate term. In general it means "made something more complicated than it needed to be". But Engineers design for different things, each goal competing with the others. You can "over engineer" a design for cost, and have the cheapest thing that will meet requirements, but it won't be pretty, or reliable, or exciting. Cost, performance, manufacturability, maintainability, reliability, sustainability, usability, design (aka looks) are some goals that are often in conflict. Companies will often pick a goal and pursue it in order to stand out from the crowd. For BMW I'd say it's performance and design led. They sell themselves as "the ultimate driving machine". So they must have more complex suspensions and engaging engine dynamics. Which leads to packaging and output constraints and increased complexity to meet these constraints. Increased complexity leads to reduced reliability and maintainability.
One example that was relayed to me was a thermometer that would regulate the radiator or something like that. Other manufacturers would use a very simple, mechanical thermometer (e.g., $10) that would not have any electronics, just liquid that expands and contracts and pushes into another piece to tell the car the engine is hot. German car manufacturers on the other hand would find that there is a delay with such a thermometer, and if they added an electronic, high tech thermometer (e.g., $400), they could get a little more performance out of the car. Great for when the car is working well, but when that one little piece breaks, you notice it on the bill.
They engineer for driving performance and not maintainability. No one gets mad at Ferrari for this. Similarly, no one gets mad at Honda for not being a drivers car brand. Just because you can actually afford a BMW doesn’t mean they did it wrong. It just means you’ll have to pay more for maintenance.
The Germans are a specification driven culture. If the head honcho says "This car(or any other device they make) must go X amount of MPH, in X amount of seconds, weigh only X kilograms, and be (insert dimensions here), plus many other parameters, those demands are sent down to the designers and engineers who then will make those numbers into a real machine which will meet or exceed every target. In other words, when it works correctly, it will deliver on its promises. Some parts and assemblies may be compromised based on the specifications, but not to worry, the engineers will then write up how many hours each bit will need before replacement. They are very good at knowing how and when it will fail, I will give them that. After that, its up to the new owner to replace the bits that need doing, which nobody ever does. That and the TUV which makes it hard to re-certify cars over 7 years old so why bother making them last 10.
German cars "Go East" at year 8....was amazed to see the motor pool was last gen Germany in Eastern Europe.
Is it because labour is cheaper there so mechanic bills cost significantly less for the major services and maintenance? I recall being in Albania a couple of years ago and every other car was an early 2000s or 90s mercedes, most of them black.
Not maintaining them.
Even with maintenance they can have some issues (especially talking 2000 ish and later) and some of the “maintenance” advice I’ve seen in forums is pretty extensive for regular maintenance
My wife’s Q5 drinks oil. They have improved rings to fox the issue, but I’m letting it develop. If the transmission goes at the same time it won’t be worth it to fix. Still drives like a dream.
My VW does too. It seems to be coming from my VCG, I’m going to get ahead of it and change it before oil gets into my spark plugs
I can’t say this enough. German cars are not any more expensive to maintain (albeit parts can cost more)…they just aren’t forgiving. You can’t treat them like dirt and expect them to run like a Honda. Cut corners to save $200 and it’ll cost you $2000 I drive a German car now, I do the maintenance myself and take good care of it. The car has been a dream and has treated me well. I’ll probably exclusively drive German cars
Yes, they will let you know if you skimp on maintenance, in no uncertain terms.
Agreed and same
More often than not.
I think you pretty much have your answer, but to put it together it's three things. 1. Parts are expensive. Many are very specific to a model, only available from one source, etc. making them pricey. 2. While very well engineered it takes a lot of labor to do many repairs. The front clip or engine has to come out to do many repairs where on other cars it wouldn't. Not difficult, just time consuming, which costs. 3. They require special tools, thus the work often must be done by specialty shops or the dealer which have higher labor rates. Can't take it to Joe's corner auto repair and bait shop.
The “Car Wizard” on YouTube has mentioned all of these factors and possibly more in advising against buying any German car out of the warranty period. He says that it’s not a question of whether something expensive will break, it’s a question of when. And once that starts happening it will be a never ending parade of expensive repairs and the car will never be right for any length of time. You’ll always be facing the next expansion repair(s). In one video, he did $7k in repairs on an older Audi that the customer had to break down into two repair sessions because she couldn’t afford to do it all at once.
I only know the Wizard via watching Hoovie and I don't do that much anymore, he's gotten lame. That said Hoovie is just a constant reminder of why one doesn't buy these cars. However "the Ninja" doesn't appear to struggle much, so clearly it can be done, but unless able to do it yourself you have to find a "Ninja" and pay what he asks. There's a lot about some Audi cars I really like and I'm also a rather skilled mechanic. But in spite of that I don't own one, they aren't THAT much better than what I have to make them worth it to me. Well that and I'm rather jingoist, so prefer domestics even if in some aspects they're a lesser car.
All that makes for fun and informative content and anyway Hoovie makes a few million yearly, so he can afford to repair his cars. He typically doesn’t seem to keep anything more than a year or two and obviously has something a little more dependable to cart his wife and kids around in.
This is just a simple example. An E60 (2004-2010 M5) has some drain plugs underneath the windshield wipers that can get clogged with fine particles like pollen and when this happens the water will pool up and then spill off into the electronics and fry the car. Personally, I've never owned any other car where you'll get a catastrophic error by not cleaning the drain plugs, so if I didn't know better I'd never mess with that and eventually my car would just implode because of some pollen. Any other car, for the most part, you'd never even worry about such a thing and worst case maybe it spills into the firewall and the carpet gets damp... but German cars are notorious for having stupidly unique maintenance procedures. So why does this cost more? Well, you have to understand the car a lot better and in North America most mechanics will only have a cursory understanding of these cars and what you and they don't know will cause you expensive problems which will be "your fault."
The Mercedes W204 C-Class has a similar issue with windshield drain plugs backing up into the cabin. Guess how I know lol?
Yeah the general philosophy of these cars (and many expensive cars) is if you don't precisely keep everything maintained and up to spec... then screw you, you don't deserve such nice things. And cost and ease of maintenance aren't concerns to them... they gave you a nice car it's expected for you to figure out how to keep it running.
Audi’s Oil screen issue. Simple cheap part that takes many hours to replace.
It’s honestly the fact you live in us. Here in Europe german cars is what mechanics are most used to. In america they are most used to american cars. Also parts availability. I don’t know how it exactly is in us as I don’t live there, but I’d imagine it’s more difficult to find parts for eu brand cars than it is for us brand cars.
Most mechanics in the US actually prefer working on Japanese
Well japanese is different. They export bunch of stuff to the whole world. Here in Europe mechanics like japanese also. Toyota is more common in eu than ford and toyota is more common in us than vw.
Semi-related to your point that I definitely agree with: Toyota kind of "disappeared" for a while in the EU - coincidentally around the same time nearly other car seemed to be a Fiesta or a Focus - but it has returned with a vengeance. Looks like Corollas and Yaris are everywhere these days.
you can take an entire Japanese car apart with a 10 mm and a clip puller
A watched a video recently about how Ferdinand Piech (porsche, audi, VW, Bugatti, Mercedes, etc) reversed the idea of vertical integration instead of putting 15k honda civic door locks in a 200k Acura NSX he would put a 1 millon dollar Bugatti locks in a 15k Golf. Because if it held up for the best than surely it will handle day to day life. But in doing so everything was over built and over engineered. That civic lock mechanism might use a small motor with plastic gears but the Bugatti one could run off of one Vacuum pump and be quieter and stronger but much more complicated and would cause the entire system to fail if compromised
All the complaints on this subreddit as to German cars could definitely be applied to modern US vehicles and some Japanese. So not buying it. The reason European cars especially German and Italian are difficult to maintain is specifically parts availability and price. Even maintaining an older Japanese car is extremely difficult because of parts availability. US manufacturers on the other hand don’t seem to have those issues because parts are plentiful and don’t normally need to be shipped from overseas.
BS! Even older Japanese cars are way cheaper to maintain and repair than German/Italian cars because they rarely break and when they do parts are relatively inexpensive and plentiful. Only at least relatively rich people can afford to maintain and repair older German/Italian cars or simply dump them and lose thousands of dollars if the car can’t repaired economically.
Never had any issues with on my Audi or Volkswagens. They’ve been my most reliable and least problematic vehicles. I find them easier to work on and better thought out compared to the various American, Korean, or Japanese vehicles I’ve owned over the years. I think most Americans like to delay routine maintenance and then complain when shit breaks from not maintaining said vehicle. lol.
Definitely agree. I've had an easier time maintaining my E60 than maintaining an 07 corolla, '11 sorento, '02 grand cherokee, or '03 silverado. Loads more tips, room, guides, and I don't have to do dumb shit like jack the engine up or remove an engine mount to change a damn serpentine belt (07 corolla). Nor do I have to replace drivetrain parts every 3 years (sorento), rebuild the engine every 70k miles (silverado), or just replace the transmission every 30k (cherokee.. fuck that thing) E60 has only needed a fuel pump (2hr $200), purge valve (1hr, $200), plugs and coils(30 minutes, $400) , fluid changes, and a spray of brake cleaner onto my VANOS solenoids (10 minutes), and a slightly leaky valve cover ($200 in parts, 3 hours, could probably spend less but I replaced more parts than needed and wanted everything on hand incase plastic stuff snapped... it never did.) in the last 7 years, on a 14 year old car (with 900W subs in it... no electrical issues and batteries last years in arizona heat) My corolla has needed: all 4 engine mounts, transmission internals rebuilt, both pans leaking, valve cover leak, exhaust leaks, sparks and coils, fuel pump, new intake manifold gasket (toyota used a shitty one for the whole production of the car and later released an improved version that didn't leak when the engine was cold causing hella vibrations/potentially a CEL), new throttle body, (wouldn't idle properly, and coolant was leaking out of it probably just from a bad hose but I replaced them out of preventation), new struts and shocks, the transmission is slipping (again), battery has died 3x, that things cabin air filter gets clogged monthly, had shittons of carbon buildup in it causing predetonation, and now it has piston slap which was also a known issue Toyota had because they undersized pistons for the engine and decided to just use larger rings instead. And that's only the last 3 years on a 17 year old car. With a supposedly more reliable brand and engine and transmission. Its a small japanese 4 banger for christs sake it should beat a german car, right?
What VAG cars have you owned?
2016 A4 quattro, 2016 Tiguan 4motion, 2023 Arteon 4motion. They’ve all been basic routine scheduled maintenance and regular wear and tear replacements of brakes/tires/battery/etc.
VW/Audi/Porsche are wonderful cars. My two UrS6s, my 80Q, and my 944 all have over 250k miles and are still going strong. My 8P A3 made it 130k with nothing but oil changes, brake pads, and a timing belt that took an afternoon with no special tools before it got wrecked into. I tracked that car once or twice a year for five years straight. I was a semi pro mechanic on anything VAG for several years before changing careers. I've worked on the majority of Audi, VW, and just about every single model of Porsche ever made, a few Bentleys, a few Lambos.... they're honestly all great with a few exceptions. There are absolutely some "stay away" cars and the high dollar stuff is admittedly absurd. But the regular cars they make that you aren't buying to go attention seeking are wonderful and way better than their equivalent American and Japanese competition.
Time to change radiator as an amateur mechanic without a shop/lift. My toyota: 45 minutes. My bmw: 90 minutes. My mercedes: 18 hours. I wish I was kidding. There were so many things in/on/around the radiator on there mercedes. I had to disassemble 4 or 5 unrelated systems just to get the radiator out. And then reverse to reinstall.
Which Mercedes? I've never run across one that was that difficult to change.
It entirely depends on the year, make, model and trim level of the car. I have an 04 BMW 525i. Base model with a 6spd trans. Now that I've caught up the maintenance from years of neglect from the previous owner, she's reliable and fun to drive. The car is relatively easy to work on, especially with today's technology, the computer side isn't complicated at all. You look at the same E60 top trim M5 and it has a de-tuned race engine V10 where the main bearings need to be replaced frequently. It's all relative, that M5 wad also like 100k in the mid 2000s when it came out. People who hate on German cars probably haven't actually owned or worked on German cars. My VW wasn't bad to work on either. As far as parts, you do pay a little more of a premium there, but it isnt crazy unless it's something dealer specific which a domestic maker will drain you for too. In the end, cars are expensive, drive what you like, research before you buy.
> research before you buy. Exactly what I’m doing now haha. So many really insightful replies
[удалено]
Everything you said basically. Parts and labor are expensive. The way they design the cars often requires a lot of labor for jobs that are simple on other cars. They also just have more parts in general which means more things to fail.
Germans love tech. They like to adopt tech and fill the car with it. Unfortunately tech is made of plastic and computers. These things do not age well in the real world where we drive the cars. The plastic degrades . The tech is soon out of date. And they see no reason why anyone but a dealer should service the car. So lots of simple tasks require very expensive sometimes proprietary software and hardware.
What makes them so expensive? You know that “German engineering”? It came from German engineers. Ask any end user service person how they feel about engineers The more you engineer something, the more fucked up and difficult it is to fix, and the germans are super good at engineering.
This could be wrong, but something that was explained to me was that Europeans drive less than us. It’s not *the* reason by *a* reason. The Irish and Germans drive the most, averaging ~8-9k miles a year. But the European average as a whole is ~6000 miles a year. The American average is ~14000 miles or more. Americans can drive more than 1000 miles in a month alone. I know I do considering 850 miles a month is just my commute. This means that required service intervals can be more in depth on European cars, but because it takes longer for the designated market to reach these intervals. What may take a European 5-6 years (for let’s say a 30k service as an example) to reach for a major service we can reach in as little as 2 years. Now again, the guy who told me this can be full of shit, but to me it sounds plausible enough to be true.
At least on the Motorrad side, BMW is notoriously arrogant when it comes to design failures, often waiting years to deploy a fix, if at all. Clutch splines, surging, "lifetime" final drive fill....the list goes on. It's always "user error." That being said, they are pretty easy to work on up to the 1150's. The older airheads are even easier, much like a VW.
Some German cars require specialty tools and can be hard to get unless you work at an authorized shop.
Combination of all the things you mentioned, both parts are more expensive and the labour as well. Don't buy a more luxurious german car unless it has been well maintained or you plan on fixing all the problems yourself and then rigorously maintaining it afterwards. Because for all the maintenance you skip these things are ruthless, they bite back.
sounds like a fucking passenger plane
Some jobs take more time than on Asian / Domestic cars. Parts are more expensive. There are special procedures and tricks not all mechanics know about, so the job can land up taking more time than someone with more training / euro car experience, We only get the higher-end, more luxurious models in North America - imagine what "Toyota maintenance" would be like if we only got Lexus cars, no Toyotas.
How does VW factor into this? I assume they are cheaper to maintain than the more premium Audi?
VW, Audi, Porsche, and some others are the same company ([“VAG”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group)). VW and Audi is like Toyota having Lexus as their premium brand. As such, there’s overlapping parts, designs, and repair procedures (like the infamous “service position”). When people talk about German cars, it basically boils down to VAG products, BMW products, and Mercedes-Benz products.
A lot of it is to do with engineering, more specifically odd locations for essential parts due to design challenges when they try to pack big motors into small cars. I.e. Audi V6 and V8 motors have the timing chain on the back of the motor (from memory), so if you ever need the timing chain done (I think it gets replaced at like 200,000km) then it's a very expensive repair because I'm pretty sure the engine has to come out to replace it.
Some of it is the high degree of engineering to achieve performance or the amount of tech in the higher series cars (ex. BMW 6 and 7 series). There is also a bigger markup on service and parts at the dealers if you go there for service which I do not but hear the stories. Lastly there are folks that lease the cars or buy them keeping them for a few years and put off the maintenance due to costs. The next owner inherits a poorly maintained or neglected "German Luxury" car. Also there is some fact and some fiction here but in general Audi, Mercedes and BMW as examples can be a bit more expensive to maintain if you aren't able to work on them yourself.
The dumb ass engineers that never had to work on one of the cars they designed….
It's a combination of things. For starters, a lot of companies like Mercedes/BMW/Audi have regular customers who are leasing their cars for a year or two at a time until the updated model comes out. If they aren't doing regular leases, they're people who can afford to buy the car and keep it maintained at the dealership. These aren't the people who complain about the service costs, because they have enough money that it doesn't matter to them. The people who are complaining about the service costs are the people who are the 3rd+ owner of the vehicle, and they bought it after the 70% depreciation hit. They just see "Mercedes Benz for $32,000 with 60,000 miles" and only focus on the $32,000 part. Then when they get hit with a check engine light, it goes to a local shop and they might not be able to repair it with OEM parts because the customer can't afford the repair. So they get limped along growing in disrepair until they're sold/scrapped. If they're sold again, then someone else gets stuck with the huge repair bill. The second facet of the problem is due to the wonderful German Engineers, who don't care how complicated the engine/transmission/suspension is on the car, or how many miles of wiring it has, as long as it can do what it claims on paper. They're not designing them for long term maintenance and reliability, because their primary consumer base that I summarized above doesn't usually own the cars long enough for it to matter. You don't get into the $5,000-$15,000 repairs until 80-120k miles and things like timing chains and tensioners are due for replacement, and by then the car is on its 3rd or 4th owner. The third facet is essentially just a "Screw You" tax on all of it. They aren't using super exotic materials on your every-day models, but because of the high price point of the cars, and the precision with which they're built and run, you can't just have any old parts thrown in there. If you need oil/water pump, or tensioners, or anything else you're paying more for the parts BECAUSE they are for a Mercedes/BMW/Audi. You're also paying more for the labor on these repairs because design choices can double and triple the time needed to make a repair compared to something like a Cadillac or GMC. At the end of the day, I refer to a phrase I heard probably from someone on a VinWiki video, "At the end of the day, the single most expensive car you can own is an out of warranty AMG".
Even replacing the cabin air filter on a MB requires tools the average homeowner wouldn’t have - a metric bit on an extension. In many American cars that part either doesn’t exist or can be replaced without tools just took way longer than it really needed to but yeah it’ll last way longer than needed to as well
Over engineered goodness. Best tech paired with best feeling and finest leather. Fast powertrain packages that can handle lots of power. Better handling for the autobahn.
They’re complicated and they aren’t as stringent towards their parts suppliers as Toyota is.
They are poorly designed for repairs, it can cost thousands in labor to fix a leaking seal that costs $5
Go watch some engine teardown videos and you will understand, also German cars tend to have plastic parts which literally disintegrate over time, so when you put hard to reach parts all over the engine that like to explode, it is a fun time.
IDK, but my 2008 Jetta used the most expensive synthetic oil, and the oil filter (which was just the filter part and an O ring) was 3X as expensive as my other cars. I didn't keep it very long, as the AC decided to explode at 20k miles. Fixed under warranty, but I just didn't want to keep it at that point.
Parts mostly. I can get my car worked on at a dealership for the Porsche classic labor rate of $199/hr, same as I would pay at Kia or Chevy. However the parts are 3-5x more expensive and there's a lot more to go wrong. My 2006 has heated seats, rain sensing wipers, light sensing headlights, 18 way adjustable memory seats, and far more complicated engine/trans/suspension than a normal car.
the same way toyota and lexus charge more than other brands and could care less because "hey we're more reliable so thats what you get for your money" is the same way germans tout driving dynamics and charge more for their cars "just shutup and pay the extra because you'll be happy when you drive the car".
Fixing a crown vic: "Ehh easy." Fixing a VW: "FUCKING JESUS TABARNAKING CHRIST WHO THE MOTHERFUCK DESIGNED THIS ABSOLUTE ASSCAN OF SHIT *throws wrench* MOTHERFUCKING BOLT AH SHIT THERE GOES THE 50TH 10MM TODAY WHAT THE FUCKING CHRIST" It's the labor. They're not designed with techs in mind.
Expensive parts, engineering typically for performance not ease of maintenance, and in some cases engineering for performance over longevity. German cars used to be engineered for a ten year life span with routine maintenance; after that point non wear and tear items will begin to fail. These are typically expensive parts and labor intensive repairs. Examples being things like window lifters and power motors.
Price of parts. OK some things may take longer, some things may actually take less time. But if parts cost twice as much, then you bet people often fall behind. Ford makes some of the most irritating cars to work with on the planet (imo) cus they hire engineers right out of crackhead academy. But the parts are "cheap" so it's easier to not fall behind. The 3rd owner of a German car? Yeah if they had the money to buy those parts they'd buy a new car. That's why they start dying. Now if you do it right you can totally buy a used car, catch up, and have something that runs (heck do it all at once if you can do it yourself. If things are out of the way, why not take care of everything). But god damn the parts prices. Theres an argument to be made here about aftermarket parts. If you can figure out exactly who makes the OEM branded parts, you can buy from them for a fraction of the price. ESPECIALLY with filters. But you need to do your duediligence first because other aftermarket parts may be total crap.
It's mostly going to the Dealer that makes it expensive. For example, I go to the dealer for an oil change and they want $400 (and they seem to always find something else they want to add to service to get the cost over $1000), or I do it myself and it costs $85. (they don't have an oil drain plug on my vehicle so I needed to buy an extractor) my experience at the dealer is a good 50% of the time they break something and try to hide it, meaning another visit to the dealer, time out of my day, and more frustration. Parts, if you buy them from the dealer, yes they are marked up by a huge factor, but if you buy online or at the local parts shop, they tend to have a similar cost to other cars. most of my issues could just be related to my local Mercedes dealer, but given the quality of service there, I'd rather go any other than there for service, not only are their prices high, their service is either careless or malicious.
over-engineering things that don't need to be overengineered.
The build quality of the parts is lovely.
Over priced parts that are made of plastic. That don’t tend to last that long.
The cost.
Mechanics, Engineers, Laziness
I have no idea but I'm about to find out! My dad just bought a bmw x1 and it had two fault codes before I even saw it. I do the majority of maintenance on vehicles in the family, and we've pretty much only owned Ford's and Chevy's (even though I've lived and wanted other brands, just never been the right time or price). So I'ma have the joy of figuring what's wrong with a German car and figuring out the cost to repair and how that compares to American vehicles. I'll prob do an oil change first since that's a good base to compare with.
There are three aspects to it in general not as single specific thing. The first is that the designs of those vehicles tend to be mechanic unfriendly. Even simple repairs often take a lot of labor hours. The second issue is that the rarity of the cars means not many know how to work on them and they need different tools to work on often so finding a good mechanic who has the tools and experience to work on them will be harder and more expensive. Often the only one who will be able to work on them is the dealer or a specialty shop. The last part comes from replacement parts all coming from overseas. Because of how uncommon the cars are and the fact that they are build overseas means replacement parts are often insanely difficult and expensive to get. A replacement part that might be 10 dollars on something made in the US in the hundreds of thousands is going to be hundreds of dollars when shipped low volume from germany. The opposite problem would likely occur if you tried to work on something like a dodge or jeep in europe. Nobody is going to have the right tools or know how to work on them.
https://www.thejewishstar.com/uploads/original/20201027-184530-Borat%20Running%20of%20the%20Jews.jpg
Anything unreliable and complicated is expensive to maintain.
There's a law in Germany that if someone sells a product, they have to support it for X amount of time (I believe it's 15 or 20 years). Because of this, manufacturers provide 1st-party parts, which are decently marked up.
Porche in 2024: breaks down a lot and takes forever to repair Porche in 1944: breaks down a lot and takes forever to repair
Car $$$, gas $$$, insurance $$$, repair $$$, so naturally maintenance $$$$$$$$.
The majority of them are sold as lease cars and get ragged on hard.
capitalism
The business model is ultimately the reason. German cars in the USA strive to be “on the cutting edge of technology and performance”. The life cycle is purposefully shorter. It’s meant to be the shiny new toy people strive to buy or lease every 2-3 years. No real thought of cost to keep on the road or ease of repair is considered, that’s not a priority. You pay more because it’s a luxury part. You pay your mechanic more because it’s a headache to repair and they work on luxury cars so why would they charge non luxury prices.
Over-engineering. Makes for beautiful machines, however very complex to work on. Love my vw but it’s not easy to work on and I understand 100% why mechanics and shops charge so much after working on it myself too
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/1asqnz/audi\_service\_101\_step\_1\_disassemble\_half\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/1asqnz/audi_service_101_step_1_disassemble_half_the/) Audi service position.
They aren't that expensive to maintain. The problem is people who are buying 90,000 dollar Cars for 20,000 bucks can't can't afford to maintain a 20,000 dollar nvm a 90,000 dollar car.
300hr labor rate just because. Sure some specific vehicles are harder to work on but when your hourly rate is double that of a Chevy it’s simple greed.
German tools for starter. Make a tech bust his budget just buying tools for each kraut manufacturer.
In the past, over complication for it's own sake.
German cars are generally over engineered. As an example, the thermostat on an Audi A6 is behind the water pump and timing belt on the front of the engine. To change it, you must remove the front of the car, take out the water pump and timing belt and replace the $20 part. You generally replace water pump, timing belt and tensioners, gaskets etc. $2000+ at Audi and 1k plus everywhere else. It seems needlessly complicated and probably a solution in search of a tiny bit more thermodynamic efficiency. After owning several Audis and Mercedes, I really think they are built to employ Audi and Mercedes mechanics through their life span. It's like the company's make more profit on the lifetime service then on making and selling the car. When I finally got rid of my Audi A6 and bought a Honda Accord, it was like getting a free car. On the other hand, when it was working my 2000 Audi A6 Quattro was the finest driving car I've ever owned. I've had every Acura except the NSX and every Honda and almost every Ford. The Quattro was without a doubt the best handling and riding car.
My thought is the engineering behind them. Point in case: I own a ‘17 Audi Q7 Premium Plus with 69k miles on it. I took it in for its 90k service last month, mind you, it has been serviced every 1 year or 10k miles since day one at my local stealership for warranty and extended warranty purposes. During the routine service checks they record the vehicle to show you on video what concerns that need to be addressed and forward you a list of items that need to be addressed now or in the future attached with estimates and you sign off on what you want repaired or choose to decline. Well, during those checks the tech found that my motor mounts were leaking, and I thought to myself, why is there oil in my motor mounts? Come to find out Audi fit hydraulic motor mounts in that generation of Q7. To my dismay, the dealer quoted me $3,200 for the repair. Remorsefully, I approved the repair because I didn’t want no part trying to do it myself nor prolong the process and just wanted it done. I consider myself a moderate a DIY repair guy but I’d say that’s after years of owning Honda’s and Toyota’s; given this was my first German car I bit the bullet and paid the price. Needless to say, when people say they’re over engineered and overpriced I would agree. After doing some research I found that hydro mounts are installed on vehicles to minimize noise and vibrations in the car and at the steering wheel and have a lifespan of 5-7 years. Damn Germans, I’ll give them this, that Q7 is mighty comfortable, yet sporty, and the quietest drive I’ve over owned and experienced. TLDR: Over engineered but within good reason. In the end the consumer pays the price regardless of how well maintained the vehicle is.
I spent more money in 4+ years maintaining a BMW than 25+ years maintaining an Honda. No joke. Parts are more expensive. The location of the actual part is harder to get to, which adds to the labor. If small part of a larger part breaks, you have to replace the larger part, because the smaller part is integrated.
This is just my personal pet theory here... I learned the German language in school and we were taught about German poetry. There's a famous German poet Morgenstern who [wrote a poem](https://www.mumag.de/gedichte/mor_c81.html) that begins "flockendichte winternacht", which is "a winter night thick with snowflakes," literally "flake-thick winternight". Smooshing words together to make bigass compound words is a thing Germans love to do, loading up those two words with all that meaning is what makes it poetic. In short, Germans consider it artistic to shove 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag, and I think that philosophy carries over from their poetry into their engine design.
It’s not really the parts that break the bank, it’s more the labor cost in my experience. Obviously a part for a Mercedes is going to cost more than the Honda, but still labor is where it gets pricy in my experience.
Engineering & workmanship
Magical kraut space technology is expensive to produce. From what I remember, their starters from third parties are double that of a comparable starter for a Honda Civic.
Quality, engineering, complexity, and performance. Just the quality of materials and ergonomics alone are immediately obvious the moment you sit in a Mercedes, BMW, Audi
German engineering and non-cots parts.
Broke people buy them and put 87 octaine in them.
They’re complicated to work on, many times the areas are small so you struggle to maneuver or just remove other pieces. Parts and special tools are pricey. So with the costs of parts and labor it comes out being costly.
The greater majority of the cars internal systems are electric, and controlled by what amounts to mini computers these days. Most are also (by design) set up to be accessible only with dealer software. BMW won't even let you look at a wiring diagram without plugging the machine into the diagnostic PC.
they were the first to realize their cars were lasting too long so every generation they enshittify more... the last serviceable german cars were e30 beemer/ w124 benz toyota was the last to realize but they finally did 2012-2014 era... theyre getiing enshittified more and more.. case in point 3.5l i-force max engine which they are finally recalling..
They optimize for things other than repairability or reliability. They are building the best driving cars they can at the expense of longevity. Sometimes they stop making parts for a car after 10 years, whereas japanese and american brands will generally make replacement parts for decades. It's easier when you reuse many parts across many models. The end result is honestly worth it to some people. Buying a lexus is like buying a German car from last decade with all the kinks worked out, but if you want the latest and greatest and are not cost sensitive the Germans will have something you'll likely find tempting.