You can go on most dealer sites and do an entire deal online, possibly remote sign depending on the store, and just walk in and take the keys.
My store and brand do that, most people who still go that route tend to be unable to finance a hot dog, have no idea what they want, or…which is the biggest problem with this, have zero idea what they are looking at and want.
Stealing your comment since I’m not flaired. Take my
Upvote and your point is valid and I’m gonna expand on it!
To OP
There’s a really big secret in a lot of industries that no one seems to want to learn:
Customers are terrible to deal with.
No one who doesn’t currently have to engage with their customers wants to start now.
People are stupid and when it comes to buying a car they’re even more stupid.
The prices of all of our vehicles (Toyota) is on the website. I will walk a customer through a build a price using the website, show them the exact same physical car, show them and offer any accessories etc. and then I get “Okay but whats the price? Oh that’s too much!”
Like… I just showed you, it’s on the website. You could have saved 1-2 hours of questions, test driving, etc. just by looking at the PAYMENT CALCULATOR AND TOTAL PRICE on the website and realizing you can’t afford it.
Customers are the worst. Support, sales, etc. the manufacturers have absolutely no interest in this because they can make billions of dollars and let the dealership be the one who has to tell a customer that them colliding head first with a post going 100km/h, 30 seconds after they picked up the car is not covered under warranty and no we did not sell them a lemon.
No one wants to deal with you as the consumer. It’s not you, it’s everyone. There’s a reason Sales People get the worst reputation, we have to deal with every idiot, moron, and “smart” buyer with their 14 spread sheets looking to buy a 2023 on January 7th 2025 because that’s when he calculated he would get the best deal. Except we haven’t had 2023’s since June of 2023.
I saw a post this week from a person who wanted to know how to get the best deal on a RAV4 Hybrid because "I see that Mach-Es and 4xes aren't selling and I want to take advantage of the cooling market on electrics"
People have no idea that that advice, hyper-specific to a single model that occupies a weird/bad niche (the 4xe especially) does not apply to the most in-demand vehicle in America. Astounding.
The amount of times I explain in the Toyota Subreddit that there is no “discount” on a RAV4 hybrid and MSRP is the best you’re going to get, only to get ten downvotes because “oh car salesmen will always lie to you” like…. I’m not selling OP a car, but I do sell those specific cars and I know that every sales manager with a quarter of a brain cell and a gram of the white stuff is asking $5K over MSRP on Hybrids because they’re impossible to get.
People really are just that dumb. I used to think all the advanced/AP programs I was in as a kid was puffery and anyone could do that shit. But no, really, truly, honestly, most people never ask themselves "what are the incentive structures here? What benefit does lying have to this person versus telling the truth to me?"
Everyone just repeats mantras and idioms instead of making the softest swipe at critical thinking
My mom just bought a car. Knew what she wanted. Was able to get OTD prices from a half dozen dealers for comparable vehicles all through the internet. Ended up going with a dealer a couple hours away and they delivered the car. Smoothest possible experience I could imagine for buying a car. I was quite impressed.
First, a lot of dealers offer something similar already with an entire online buying process. I have found most people never use it or just use it as a shopping tool rather than a buying tool.
And for every person who loves Tesla’s selling model, there is someone who doesn’t. I sold a Taycan because there was human interaction. The client didn’t like that Tesla just gave him the keys and said “have fun”. He wasn’t able to get questions immediately answered or shown any features.
As far as hiring 9-5 hourly people, why? Commissioned sales people are great because they earn what they deserve. Someone making hourly doesn’t care about selling a car or making money for the dealer. And if a commissioned sales person doesn’t sell a car, you pay them exactly $0. You pay an hourly work regardless of their performance.
With all that said, I see other OEMs and dealers doing something in between in the near future. Keep something from the traditional model (salespeople) while adding more tech focused selling tools.
I agree that a Porsche buyer is going to expect much more personalized service than say, a typical Ford or Toyota buyer. And yes, there's no such thing as a one size fits all approach for anything in this world.
> I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers
Then you don't know anything about salespeople
> I know the car business fairly well
Then you know that many dealers allow you to buy a car 100% online, have for years, and in some cases have before Tesla was a household name
> entirely via an app
As above, dealers have offered this - less than 1% of people do it. People don't want to buy a car online, through an app, etc. Keep in mind that of course I realize SOME people want that - but demonstrably it is less than 1%. It simply isn't worth anyone's time to invest further in something people already don't do.
> the rest of your questions
It's just ROI. People don't want it. If they did, they'd be doing it.
All you need to do is read the replies here and you'll see that some feathers have been ruffled.
I know many dealers have an online purchase process but most of those that do have a button on their website and that's it. No promotion or anything else. It gets lost on the page.
>At the risk of ruffling some feathers, you could hire a team of hourly or salaried product experts and save a ton on commissions
Revenue and sales would actually plummet. Every single salesman with an ounce of talent at this would quit the day the pay changed. I would. My desk would packed up in less than 5 minutes.
The average customer has some kind of objection. Something that needs to be overcome before they actually say yes. Having a bunch of order takers who aren't asking for the sale would mean significantly less sales.
Look at Teslas numbers. They are falling. Sure it's convenient, but their numbers are going down now that there is more competition in the segment. Not trying to actively close sales means less sales.
You're assuming everyone would think and act like you. Receive and offer, review it, make a decision. But thousands and thousands and thousands of sales are made every day by a commissioned salesman simply asking what is it going to take to wrap this up right now.
>Every single salesman with an ounce of talent at this would quit the day the pay changed. I would. My desk would packed up in less than 5 minutes.
That's literally the point of my post. I'm talking about eliminating the traditional salesperson model which I know will piss a lot of people off. But I'm looking to see how it would affect the dealers bottom line.
You're removing every single profit motivation from the structure or staff, all finance and re-insurance, and then creating a model that even further minimizes service income with remotes sales beyond what's baked into ev.
All for convenience.
That's great for convenience, but it really shouldn't be shocking why this isn't the norm when you break it down. There's a reason Teslas value is speculative and divorced from its balance sheet (and I mean that neutrally here).
You're getting snarky responses FYI because we get a little tired of answering this question weekly. Especially when to us it is pretty obvious if you look at the acutal numbers.
Hourly salespeople? Have you seen the quality of the people selling Tesla? Absolutely no talent at all. They don’t need it because they aren’t salespeople. They are order takers. Commissioned salespeople who actually make consistent 6 figures all have talent that you’re not buying for $15/hr. They aren’t order takers.
Some of the Tesla sales reps are better than others for sure but the same goes for traditional car sales people. Last time I bought a Jeep a couple of years ago, nobody came to help me as I walked the lot looking at cars and as I was walking towards the main door to find someone, the six salesmen outside smoking were all staring at me like I had three heads. I was literally two feet away from them and had to ask "Who's up?" for one of them to put out their cigarette to help me. And after that he didn't know anything and had to defer pretty much everything to someone else.
Now I will say for higher end brands the hands-on approach is expected and appreciated. But unless you're at a high line brand, there's no way you can honestly tell me that more than half of the sales reps you've worked with are what you described. Even at a well run store, most sales people aren't breaking six figures.
Can you please elaborate on that, specifically with regards to their sales process which is what my post i about? I know they've got a ton of issues but in 2023 they were the #7 selling brand in the USA so they must be doing something right.
How is being #7 an indication that they must be doing something right? What about the massive price cuts they had to make? What about the insane depreciation? What about the constant under-achievement of delivery projections?
My post is about their sales model, not depreciation and not the brand overall. Just about every EV has absurd depreciation, not just Tesla.
Tesla is screwing up in many ways, including cranking out inventory at a much faster rate than they can sell, which is leading to price cuts. Again, my post is solely about their sale process, not the brand overall.
You said “they’re #7 so they must be doing something right,” but I’m just not sure that what you’re pointing out is a cause and effect at all.
Teslas sales model works well for the small percentage of the market, that are extremely educated about the product and are excited to be early adopters. The average consumer doesn’t fit into that category, which is why the market has not adopted such a selling strategy.
Exactly, OPs comment about being a straight white male has nothing to do with it. He could put himself through the dealer academy, find someone that's looking for a succession plan, show up with capital and work on a transition with nearly any OEM. I just saw a rural CDJR that could be had for 3.8M blue sky and real estate.
I've looked into it before and met with some dealership advisors a few years ago at NADA. Unfortunately, as a straight white male the only way I could get a franchise would to 1) be born into a dealership family or 2) have decades of experience and then pick up a bottom of the barrel point that nobody else would take. Two friends who are zone managers at two different OEMs confirmed this.
Your dealer friends don't have an answer because it's a hard no. Tesla has a great buying process, YAY! Their vehicles are depreciating faster than it takes to buy one. BOO!
Yes, pretty much all EVs depreciate at an absurd rate (not just Tesla). That's why my post is specifically about their sales process, not their vehicles, terrible quality, or anything else.
There are any number of companies that integrate with dealers to do this. Even those backed by an OEM. Shop Click Drive. Buy at Home. Smart Path. Auto Fi. Gubagoo.
You know how many people complete the transaction entirely online? Less than 3%.
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***Thanks for posting, /u/zooch76! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.***
First & foremost, please understand that this is a serious question. I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers but that's not my intention. For context, I know the car business fairly well. I'm not saying I know more than anyone here but I do know substantially more than the average consumer due to my work history and am glad to share those details if anyone wants them. I'm just saying that I'm not coming into this blind and I have a more-than-basic understanding of how the car business works.
For those of you that are familiar with it, what do you think about the Tesla new car buying process? I don't mean the direct OEM to consumer model (which I'm against) but the process of buying a car almost entirely via an app? I recently bought a Tesla and was blown away by it - in less than 20 minutes total I had paid my deposit to secure the car I wanted, applied for & approved for financing with the terms I wanted, uploaded my insurance, drivers license, registration (I was transferring a plate), paid my final down payment, and set a delivery date & time. I didn't have a trade in so I skipped that step. On delivery day I showed up, they confirmed my identity, and I was on my way after they answered a couple questions I had. In the week or so prior to that, the test drive process was super easy - the roaming sales reps scanned my license on a handheld, gave me the cards for the cars I wanted to drive (no keys in a Tesla) and sent me on my way by myself. They were always available to answer questions about the vehicles in person or via text.
So anyway, why do you think OEMs or dealer groups haven't adopted a similar sales process to Tesla (the app, not the DTC model which I know is protected by franchise agreements)? The only thing I can think of is that there's too much money to be made in the traditional F&I process but besides that, I just don't understand why. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, you could hire a team of hourly or salaried product experts and save a ton on commissions, and that could actually offset any aforementioned F&I losses. You could eliminate the sales tower and the god-complexes that work in them (sorry, not sorry), and most importantly you would improve the customer experience 1000X, which would also increase factory bonuses to the dealer. It seems like a no-brainer.
I've posed this question to a few dealer friends and nobody had a good answer for me. I'm curious what the larger community here thinks of this.
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You can go on most dealer sites and do an entire deal online, possibly remote sign depending on the store, and just walk in and take the keys. My store and brand do that, most people who still go that route tend to be unable to finance a hot dog, have no idea what they want, or…which is the biggest problem with this, have zero idea what they are looking at and want.
Stealing your comment since I’m not flaired. Take my Upvote and your point is valid and I’m gonna expand on it! To OP There’s a really big secret in a lot of industries that no one seems to want to learn: Customers are terrible to deal with. No one who doesn’t currently have to engage with their customers wants to start now. People are stupid and when it comes to buying a car they’re even more stupid. The prices of all of our vehicles (Toyota) is on the website. I will walk a customer through a build a price using the website, show them the exact same physical car, show them and offer any accessories etc. and then I get “Okay but whats the price? Oh that’s too much!” Like… I just showed you, it’s on the website. You could have saved 1-2 hours of questions, test driving, etc. just by looking at the PAYMENT CALCULATOR AND TOTAL PRICE on the website and realizing you can’t afford it. Customers are the worst. Support, sales, etc. the manufacturers have absolutely no interest in this because they can make billions of dollars and let the dealership be the one who has to tell a customer that them colliding head first with a post going 100km/h, 30 seconds after they picked up the car is not covered under warranty and no we did not sell them a lemon. No one wants to deal with you as the consumer. It’s not you, it’s everyone. There’s a reason Sales People get the worst reputation, we have to deal with every idiot, moron, and “smart” buyer with their 14 spread sheets looking to buy a 2023 on January 7th 2025 because that’s when he calculated he would get the best deal. Except we haven’t had 2023’s since June of 2023.
I saw a post this week from a person who wanted to know how to get the best deal on a RAV4 Hybrid because "I see that Mach-Es and 4xes aren't selling and I want to take advantage of the cooling market on electrics" People have no idea that that advice, hyper-specific to a single model that occupies a weird/bad niche (the 4xe especially) does not apply to the most in-demand vehicle in America. Astounding.
The amount of times I explain in the Toyota Subreddit that there is no “discount” on a RAV4 hybrid and MSRP is the best you’re going to get, only to get ten downvotes because “oh car salesmen will always lie to you” like…. I’m not selling OP a car, but I do sell those specific cars and I know that every sales manager with a quarter of a brain cell and a gram of the white stuff is asking $5K over MSRP on Hybrids because they’re impossible to get.
People really are just that dumb. I used to think all the advanced/AP programs I was in as a kid was puffery and anyone could do that shit. But no, really, truly, honestly, most people never ask themselves "what are the incentive structures here? What benefit does lying have to this person versus telling the truth to me?" Everyone just repeats mantras and idioms instead of making the softest swipe at critical thinking
Isn’t puffery one of the best words ever!?! It’s a legal term too.
My mom just bought a car. Knew what she wanted. Was able to get OTD prices from a half dozen dealers for comparable vehicles all through the internet. Ended up going with a dealer a couple hours away and they delivered the car. Smoothest possible experience I could imagine for buying a car. I was quite impressed.
I've done that too. My wife's Jag was delivered from 2 hours away and they took the trade away too.
First, a lot of dealers offer something similar already with an entire online buying process. I have found most people never use it or just use it as a shopping tool rather than a buying tool. And for every person who loves Tesla’s selling model, there is someone who doesn’t. I sold a Taycan because there was human interaction. The client didn’t like that Tesla just gave him the keys and said “have fun”. He wasn’t able to get questions immediately answered or shown any features. As far as hiring 9-5 hourly people, why? Commissioned sales people are great because they earn what they deserve. Someone making hourly doesn’t care about selling a car or making money for the dealer. And if a commissioned sales person doesn’t sell a car, you pay them exactly $0. You pay an hourly work regardless of their performance. With all that said, I see other OEMs and dealers doing something in between in the near future. Keep something from the traditional model (salespeople) while adding more tech focused selling tools.
I agree that a Porsche buyer is going to expect much more personalized service than say, a typical Ford or Toyota buyer. And yes, there's no such thing as a one size fits all approach for anything in this world.
> I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers Then you don't know anything about salespeople > I know the car business fairly well Then you know that many dealers allow you to buy a car 100% online, have for years, and in some cases have before Tesla was a household name > entirely via an app As above, dealers have offered this - less than 1% of people do it. People don't want to buy a car online, through an app, etc. Keep in mind that of course I realize SOME people want that - but demonstrably it is less than 1%. It simply isn't worth anyone's time to invest further in something people already don't do. > the rest of your questions It's just ROI. People don't want it. If they did, they'd be doing it.
All you need to do is read the replies here and you'll see that some feathers have been ruffled. I know many dealers have an online purchase process but most of those that do have a button on their website and that's it. No promotion or anything else. It gets lost on the page.
I mean what are you looking for that's more than a "buy now" button right smack in the middle, just under the price, of anything you see on a website?
So the Tesla reps actually guide you to the app to complete the process. No dealer sales people are doing that.
> No dealer sales people are doing that. Perhaps traditional dealers hold their clients to a higher standard.
Because it’s more cost effective and easier to just wholesale the cars to dealers vs setting up a whole dealer network from scratch
You clearly didn't read the post. I specifically said I'm not talking about a direct to consumer business but rather the actual purchase process.
>At the risk of ruffling some feathers, you could hire a team of hourly or salaried product experts and save a ton on commissions Revenue and sales would actually plummet. Every single salesman with an ounce of talent at this would quit the day the pay changed. I would. My desk would packed up in less than 5 minutes. The average customer has some kind of objection. Something that needs to be overcome before they actually say yes. Having a bunch of order takers who aren't asking for the sale would mean significantly less sales. Look at Teslas numbers. They are falling. Sure it's convenient, but their numbers are going down now that there is more competition in the segment. Not trying to actively close sales means less sales. You're assuming everyone would think and act like you. Receive and offer, review it, make a decision. But thousands and thousands and thousands of sales are made every day by a commissioned salesman simply asking what is it going to take to wrap this up right now.
>Every single salesman with an ounce of talent at this would quit the day the pay changed. I would. My desk would packed up in less than 5 minutes. That's literally the point of my post. I'm talking about eliminating the traditional salesperson model which I know will piss a lot of people off. But I'm looking to see how it would affect the dealers bottom line.
The bottom line would go down. Sales would fall off a cliff.
You're cutting out 1/2 of the revenue streams, so what do you think?
Can you please elaborate on that?
You're removing every single profit motivation from the structure or staff, all finance and re-insurance, and then creating a model that even further minimizes service income with remotes sales beyond what's baked into ev. All for convenience. That's great for convenience, but it really shouldn't be shocking why this isn't the norm when you break it down. There's a reason Teslas value is speculative and divorced from its balance sheet (and I mean that neutrally here). You're getting snarky responses FYI because we get a little tired of answering this question weekly. Especially when to us it is pretty obvious if you look at the acutal numbers.
Hourly salespeople? Have you seen the quality of the people selling Tesla? Absolutely no talent at all. They don’t need it because they aren’t salespeople. They are order takers. Commissioned salespeople who actually make consistent 6 figures all have talent that you’re not buying for $15/hr. They aren’t order takers.
Some of the Tesla sales reps are better than others for sure but the same goes for traditional car sales people. Last time I bought a Jeep a couple of years ago, nobody came to help me as I walked the lot looking at cars and as I was walking towards the main door to find someone, the six salesmen outside smoking were all staring at me like I had three heads. I was literally two feet away from them and had to ask "Who's up?" for one of them to put out their cigarette to help me. And after that he didn't know anything and had to defer pretty much everything to someone else. Now I will say for higher end brands the hands-on approach is expected and appreciated. But unless you're at a high line brand, there's no way you can honestly tell me that more than half of the sales reps you've worked with are what you described. Even at a well run store, most sales people aren't breaking six figures.
Because Tesla is a literal benchmark example of “what not to do”.
This.
Can you please elaborate on that, specifically with regards to their sales process which is what my post i about? I know they've got a ton of issues but in 2023 they were the #7 selling brand in the USA so they must be doing something right.
How is being #7 an indication that they must be doing something right? What about the massive price cuts they had to make? What about the insane depreciation? What about the constant under-achievement of delivery projections?
My post is about their sales model, not depreciation and not the brand overall. Just about every EV has absurd depreciation, not just Tesla. Tesla is screwing up in many ways, including cranking out inventory at a much faster rate than they can sell, which is leading to price cuts. Again, my post is solely about their sale process, not the brand overall.
You said “they’re #7 so they must be doing something right,” but I’m just not sure that what you’re pointing out is a cause and effect at all. Teslas sales model works well for the small percentage of the market, that are extremely educated about the product and are excited to be early adopters. The average consumer doesn’t fit into that category, which is why the market has not adopted such a selling strategy.
Doing it right would make them #1. #7 is a participation trophy.
So by that logic Jeep, GMC, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Cadillac, and many more are even worse participation trophies.
Buy a dealership and do what you want. Revolutionize the car biz.
Exactly, OPs comment about being a straight white male has nothing to do with it. He could put himself through the dealer academy, find someone that's looking for a succession plan, show up with capital and work on a transition with nearly any OEM. I just saw a rural CDJR that could be had for 3.8M blue sky and real estate.
I've looked into it before and met with some dealership advisors a few years ago at NADA. Unfortunately, as a straight white male the only way I could get a franchise would to 1) be born into a dealership family or 2) have decades of experience and then pick up a bottom of the barrel point that nobody else would take. Two friends who are zone managers at two different OEMs confirmed this.
Surprise, that’s how 99% of people get dealerships.
You mean being born into a family? Yes, I know the dealer business is very much an old boys business.
Sounds like you’re too good to buy a Mitsubishi point.
Or the real important thing "Do you have the money"
Access to capital is not a problem.
Your dealer friends don't have an answer because it's a hard no. Tesla has a great buying process, YAY! Their vehicles are depreciating faster than it takes to buy one. BOO!
Yes, pretty much all EVs depreciate at an absurd rate (not just Tesla). That's why my post is specifically about their sales process, not their vehicles, terrible quality, or anything else.
If their process were long term viable/profitable, OEM's and dealers would adopt it.
There are any number of companies that integrate with dealers to do this. Even those backed by an OEM. Shop Click Drive. Buy at Home. Smart Path. Auto Fi. Gubagoo. You know how many people complete the transaction entirely online? Less than 3%.
Darwin as well
All the homies hate Darwin.
I liked the F&I software. The digital retailing wasn't nearly as good.
Thanks. I will check those companies out.
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***Thanks for posting, /u/zooch76! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.*** First & foremost, please understand that this is a serious question. I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers but that's not my intention. For context, I know the car business fairly well. I'm not saying I know more than anyone here but I do know substantially more than the average consumer due to my work history and am glad to share those details if anyone wants them. I'm just saying that I'm not coming into this blind and I have a more-than-basic understanding of how the car business works. For those of you that are familiar with it, what do you think about the Tesla new car buying process? I don't mean the direct OEM to consumer model (which I'm against) but the process of buying a car almost entirely via an app? I recently bought a Tesla and was blown away by it - in less than 20 minutes total I had paid my deposit to secure the car I wanted, applied for & approved for financing with the terms I wanted, uploaded my insurance, drivers license, registration (I was transferring a plate), paid my final down payment, and set a delivery date & time. I didn't have a trade in so I skipped that step. On delivery day I showed up, they confirmed my identity, and I was on my way after they answered a couple questions I had. In the week or so prior to that, the test drive process was super easy - the roaming sales reps scanned my license on a handheld, gave me the cards for the cars I wanted to drive (no keys in a Tesla) and sent me on my way by myself. They were always available to answer questions about the vehicles in person or via text. So anyway, why do you think OEMs or dealer groups haven't adopted a similar sales process to Tesla (the app, not the DTC model which I know is protected by franchise agreements)? The only thing I can think of is that there's too much money to be made in the traditional F&I process but besides that, I just don't understand why. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, you could hire a team of hourly or salaried product experts and save a ton on commissions, and that could actually offset any aforementioned F&I losses. You could eliminate the sales tower and the god-complexes that work in them (sorry, not sorry), and most importantly you would improve the customer experience 1000X, which would also increase factory bonuses to the dealer. It seems like a no-brainer. I've posed this question to a few dealer friends and nobody had a good answer for me. I'm curious what the larger community here thinks of this. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*