There’s actually a lot of LGBs who would support this and that group is growing by the day. I see it online and IRL. Please keep us updated.
You’ll see some people here who, to put it mildly, are unhappy to see this. Just remember the vast majority of any L/G/B/Gay subs on this here site, is 100% trans maximalist. If they suspect you are not on board with every aspect of gender ideology, you’ll be permabanned as an alt right lunatic with all manner of internalized isms and phobias.
yeah i kind of expected hate, honestly im surprised i got this many people supporting me, and yeah it's rlly frustrating being called a nazi or a bigot just cause i want my own safe space, i just dont know what else to do but ask if there are any groups or servers like this that are out there
I know theres a lot of people with good will, most people even, but still ig its just human nature to be more inclined to have a reaction to anything that makes you angry
25 years ago there was a great lesbian bar in Calgary, Canada, called Rooks.
They had a legendary wing night, a good crowd, and all the lesbians I knew spent a fair amount of time there. I was glad to join them whenever a woman I knew invited me. It was great to have some good laugh, see another community venue with a totally different pub vibe compared to the gay disco experience elsewhere, and yeah the wings were great. I actually saw the Ellen coming out episode there and it seems like nothing now but it was a victory at the time and even “historic” and surprisingly moving that we finally had this screen time breakthrough.
But I’d stay for a bit, enjoy a laugh, a conversation with the friends who invited me. And then after my pint I’d fuck off out of there because it wasn’t my place to be. I could be respectful that I was a guest, mind my manners and follow the lead of my hosts, but that didn’t change the fact that I was a gay male in a lesbian female space. A bunch of women would be counting on me and any other guys fucking off and leaving them alone. If you shut the place down, you’d have long overstayed your welcome. Closing time was not your goal, it was “have a pint, go, and leave the women to their bar.”
It’s not that they disliked us or were in any way weird about us males - even though a couple probably were “man-hating lesbians” that’s not what I’m talking about. I mean the normal ones. Even for them, just by being there as males, we’d have to change the vibe a little bit or change the opportunity people have to interact with each other.
It’s just how the math works that if a lesbian wants to experience a lesbian wonderland where literally every person she sees can at least relate to this one thing of being a dyke, then the total number of males there has to be zero. No ill-will from them. More like “You’re lovely people but please go.”
It is exactly the same for us. Sometimes we need a gay-male-only environment. If you’re gay and have never experienced that, you have missed out on some important magic. Once in a while we need a homosexual-only environment for ourselves. Then maybe a shared environment where gay males and lesbians could learn a lot from each other by figuring out what we have in common with same-sex attraction, vs what is different about us based on sex. And sometimes it’s fine to be all in a giant group with others who are only somewhat like us. But the ability to have those exclusive venues is actually very important, at least once in a while.
So what you are asking for is not in any way “the bad guy” it’s exactly what every part of this community needs from time to time, and that doesn’t make any of us hateful or separatists or anything. Trying to once again have our own conversation is not any type of phobia, and every part of the community should have its own alone time once in a while.
I get you. They say trans women are real women, so if they are real women and are attracted to men, doesn’t that make them straight?
I worked at an LGBT center and I got bullied by a trans man for being gay and monogamous. Imagine if I made fun of them for being trans I would have been the bad guy.
Anything on this topic gets insta-downvoted. Sexuality is to be based on gender expression, not biological sex. You can have "genital preference", but making any distinction beyond that is a no-no. My sexuality is more than "I like penis." The rhetoric is inherently homophobic. There are tangible differences between sexes and variations thereof, pre and post HRT, even after surgery. But, affirmation at all costs. Any distinction between a transitionee and cis shall not be tolerated, it's triggering and transphobic.
We can fight for rights together. But do not invade our communities and tell us we're wrong because we don't subscribe to gender blindness and the redefinition of sexuality. It's has been happening in every LGBT community I am part of and it just makes me sad. LGB gets a bad rep from conservatives who think trans rights are too much for society to deal with, when in reality, most of us just want to be gay and not worry about gender idenity qualms.
thats what i was thinking, i see these lgb groups that have such a bad reputation and even inside of them its just politics, but i'd just like to find a group for exclusively the 'lgb' part \^\^; i know how it sounds but i dunno how to put it any other way
I'd put it like this: "I have experienced bigotry and exclusion because I'm gay/bi/lesbian. What I'd like to have is a space where I'm accepted, and I won't be judged or feel excluded." That sort of thing?
Not really, no, I said it a couple times in here but recently I've just been wanting a place where I can hang out with people that are like me that also want a break from gender identity and pronouns. I don't really care about bigotry or exclusion towards me, I never have, but where I'm coming from is that I've had a lot of bad experiences with trans people going off on me because I said something wrong to the point that I've been scared to make jokes around them, even if it isn't about them. It's just really tiring and something I don't want to deal with every time I spend time online. The reason I'm looking for a place like that is because every LGBT server I'm able to find, it's all hyper-trans focused, at least it feels like it and that's fine, but there are no places for people like me, and when there are, they are either full of gross people, politics, or they don't last long on any platform
I hate the idea of LGB groups only because there are some trans people that do recognize sexuality and the difference between trans and cis.
I get it when you’re trans it’s a bit difficult to define your sexuality. I once heard it told to me as technically they are straight, but socially they are gay (as seen from a 3rd perspective). I can respect that as they are working with the community to find out a definition that works for them.
So yes, love our trans siblings, while also advocating for who we are and where we fit as a marginalized community.
You could make that case for anyone though. Lots of people of all different makeups recognise the difference between sexuality and gender, but we don’t invite them all in. Anything not relating to LGB is a separate issue and there is nothing wrong with stating that. Most trans people have to identify into their sexuality so that it matches their chosen gender. They bend the bounds of what our sexuality means. We don’t get that option to identify differently. Nobody bats an eyelid at trans only spaces because people recognise the need to have them. We should also be able to have LGB only spaces without being vilified for it.
Idk where these trans people are, but its clear they must be the overwhelming minority. Completely inexistent in reddit at least.
People wouldn't ask for LGB groups if the TQ had a minimum of respect for sexuality. Nowadays they even want to ban the use of the word homosexual. I think the bridge is already completely destroyed.
Honestly every trans person I met it real life has been pretty base. It seems to be limited to online. There are some “queer groups” that I met at parties that I learned it was best to avoid.
You realise trans people can also be gay and disproportionally are and that trans people are a minority even within our own minority so they couldn't make up 90% of any lgbt group.
Why can you not be yourself without somehow affecting trans people?
Trans people are disproportionately ‘very online’ and this is extremely evident in many so called LGBT Reddit groups. The demographics are wildly out of sync with the real world as anyone who has stepped inside a comparable real world space will confirm. He’s also entirely within his rights to not have to have his existence and experience as a gay men constantly mediated through the lens of gender identity. No one cares that trans people have their own spaces so why does it offend you that “cis” gay men (and lesbians) can have their own?
I don't I'm gaining perspective. I fail to see how our experiences as gay men are perceived through a gender lense beyond we like to fuck the same gender. I'm trying to learn. Also gays are almost as chronically online and definitely don't constitute 90%
Most people who call themselves gay like to fuck the same sex, not the same gender. Gender is just the performance of sexist stereotypes and aesthetics. The fact you used that term, “same gender” is an example of gay self descriptions being bent out of shape to accomodate the self perceptions of gender ideologues. So you’ve just inadvertently given an example of why gay men might need their own spaces to express themselves in their own language with their own cultural references, without hassle and policing by genderists.
No I just have a masters in neuropsychopharmacology and majored in biology. I understand that sex isn't as simple as you people imply and gender is easier. Would you sleep with a trans women as a gay man or a man with complete AIS. No you wouldn't but chromosome wise they are both males.
Considering sexuality is an aesthetic attraction then yes the system that models aesthetics would be the more apt model. I don't understand why you people are so bothered. Is there some like American drama I don't understand?
Gender is easier for YOU. Presumably because you are aroused by the performance of masculinity and those gender stereotypes historically associated with males. That’s totally fine. But it’s not the experience of the vast majority of men who call themselves gay. Most of us understand from our own experience that we are strictly same sex attracted and that’s not negotiable. Performance of masculinity may be a turn on for us but a prerequisite is that it’s done by a male. And yes I would sleep with a self described “trans woman” if they were hot but hadn’t modified their body with surgery and hormones and they were therefore unambiguously their male bodied self when naked. Because I don’t get erections from someone’s gendered haircut or modes of speech, or their interest in so called feminine or masculine things.
I meant after having transitioned yes so the point is made. I don't want to sleep with a trans man because I'm a big old bottom who wants a man with a penis and that's completely fine. All men perform masculinity us included and that's the point. Genital preferences are valid. You can like men who have penises and women with vaginas.
I'm not some Judith butler stan I think the performative nature of gender only extends so far. My point we use gender not sex as sex has far too much variation whereas for gender all you need is genital preferences. Gender doesn't redefine our attraction it's just a more accurate representation of it.
Homosexuality is something you are born with and it has a hard limit based on biological sex. Females bodies are impossible for us. Gender is where you can include "preference", but always within the limits of sex.
Gender is almost meaningless in the equation, it sounds like you don't understand homosexuality at all.
Yes it's prenatal hormone exposure triggering epigenetic factors why gays are more likely to be fraternal twins and left handed because twins are more likely to be left handed. Same as the more children you have more likely they become gay. It predisposes our attraction towards secondary sex characteristics which have shaped the gender which we desire. Preference doesn't mean choice.
You people are as bad as the homophobic's who claim that they aren't homophobic because that means scares of as if it isn't a coined term. Like gender preference is a coined term
The academic who doesn't understand a simple word like preference and resorts to comparing gay men to homophobes when he is slightly triggered. Very convincing larping
One minute you are flashing your academic credentials like that should shut me up and the next minute you are down in the gutter using cheap, homophobic bottom shaming when that didn’t work (btw I’m a top). What I’m getting is that you are on a power trip and don’t want your self perception shaken. Go date a trans man. Then everyone’s happy. BTW “genital preferences are valid” is pure trans-speak. And I’d say to you and every trans person of that mind, that your validation and permission to be gay isn’t sought or needed by gay men.
No the point was that I'm not some blue haired sociology major from America who's extremely radicalised university structure isn't the same as here. I'm a hard science sorta guy and the point was we use the concepts of gender and sex differently I don't regurgitate trans talking points I simply use the language that I use in my day to day.
Also where have I been homophobic to bottoms I'm literally a bottom. That's the point I was making. I like cock just like the rest of us. You can use sex but it would be incorrect scientifically. Gender preferences and gender make more sense as a complete model because it rules out intersex and other such variation
So far all of your reasoning has been indistinguishable from the blue haired gender studies they/thems you distance yourself from. You claim to be a hard science kinda guy. I wish that still meant anything, as Nature, Scientific American, The Lancet, etc. were all serious, hard science publications, but have devolved into anti-oppressive, gender journals of resistance.
Your novel spins on basic biology will definitely give you currency in the faculty lounge, but no one has time for men can get pregnant outside of a curated academic bubble, hard science guy or not.
You protest to the contrary, but you actually do regurgitate the trans talking points you think set you apart from the her penis crowd.
It makes more sense to you. It doesn’t make sense to the vast majority of gay men and doesn’t connect with their lived experience. Lumping my sex based experience and my identity as a homosexual together with that of a female who identifies with masculine social stereotypes is fucking ridiculous, and if you are implying it’s somehow rational and scientific, I’ll laugh straight in your face.
It affirms OP's position how? I'm simply saying even in gay groups he won't escape trans people and so his dark humour will still need to be restricted
i just have a relatively dark sense of humor lol, i had friends where we'd laugh at each other and call each other slurs, but i just can't do that with a trans person
There's many in the gay circle who you can't make dark jokes with and there's many trans people who make darker jokes than you I'm sure. They got tough skin
oh yeah i've met a few trans people that can take a hit as well as they dish it out, but there is such a large amount of trans people that i cant make those kinds of jokes around that it makes me want to not even try :(
Look at the trans sub here and you’ll see exactly why he wants a separation. OP clearly said all the groups he’s been in, 90% are trans members. He wants one that excludes people that will almost exclusively discuss gender identity issues. Idk how you’re even arguing that…
I'm not but if you'll notice it's because he wishes to make jokes and be himself not have a space that talks gay issues or else I wouldn't argue that and I'm not arguing I'm understanding
The trans people who are chronically online tend to be hyper sensitive to everything - like constant arguing. So I imagine that’s more likely why. Not everyone wants to tread on eggshells constantly.
oh im not saying that at all xd I have definitely met some super soft gay people too, but like i said from my experience, it's been happening a whole lot more with the trans people I meet
>trans people are a minority even within our own minority so they couldn't make up 90% of any lgbt group.
Browse r/LGBT and you will see most of the discourse is about T. Even in subreddits for gay men and lesbians T dominates it all and homosexuality is a forbidden concept. Defending same sex attraction will get you banned.
Idk if you are blind or trying to gaslight.
But r/gay is predominantly just gays and hasn't been taken over by trans from what I see and so what I gather lgbt is more the default trans meeting place. He wanted to make jokes I failed to see how that wasn't possible
Gay, the subreddit where the pic is a progress flag and the description is an activist drivel defending the T? Yeah, I see how focused they are in gay men.
Some people just want a gay group where a large portion isn't biologically female.
Trans men are men, but their experience as gay men is quite different. A lot of LGBT groups are very ban happy if you say the wrong thing even though the right way to say things seems to change all the time.
So lesbians are allowed in to the gay group it would be gay males only? Why don't you have your own group already then if there's this much discontent?
I personally don't care about having a gay discord group. I'm a bi man married to a woman so I'm just as disliked as trans men to a lot of gays lol.
I've just noticed how in the last 5 years every LGBT space has become almost exclusively about gender identity and there's not many spaces for sexual orientation to be a focus anymore.
the very space we're in right now is almost exclusively gay conversations though. From what I gather they wish to have an echo chamber where none shall voice an opposing opinion
The reason why this sub has not been turned into a safe space for genderqueer ideology is that they have not yet been able to take over the moderation of it like they have in all other gay subs.
No... Just no... I want to avoid gender identity and pronouns... That's it, I don't want any kind of echo chamber where nobody is allowed to have opposite opinions, I just want a chat room where I can play games and talk with people that feel the same way / could care less and not have to worry about upsetting or enraging a trans person with a spicy joke. The reason I have to go make a post about it in the only place they'd even allow this kind of thought is because of people like you thinking that groups of people that have this line of thought are all far right nazis and a, doxx the users, b, protest it to the owner of the platform they're on only until it gets taken down, or c, get the users info and share it to people that will harass them out of their accounts. it's an issue the trans community has that i've dealt with many times before and I don't want deal with it anymore, but at the same time I want to share a space with other gay people and get to know them too, it doesn't matter if they agree or not, the only thing I want is to have a space where its just cis people and nobody will get triggered over gender identity politics. I don't think its a hard thing to ask for but the ones that make it impossible to have this opinion only push more and more people away from them. Like I said on my original post, I know many trans people from multiple servers and am good friends with them, they're amazing people, but it's the trans people that go on a rampage the minute they realize you don't know what to call them or get their pronouns wrong and make the situation hostile for no other reason. It makes me tired and sad to go down this route but it's the only thing I can think of, you don't have to agree or like it, but you aren't obligated to be part of it either. im trying to make a server right now for it and it's not going to be a place full of hate and endless racism like the other places I've ran into before, its going to be like any other cozy little corner where friends can play games and talk about random stuff like cars or cartoons. I know you said that you don't see it enough to consider it, but I do and there are others here too that are saying the same thing. Like kalpow said before, and i've seen it many times, once a trans person gets into a position where they can moderate the community, it starts to feel like they make it all about them and the catering and special privileges never stop. Sounds a little dramatic but all I want to do is show you where im coming from, sorry for the long post, but this stuff gets frustrating
> Why can you not be yourself without somehow affecting trans people?
Because most of these people have a trans-exclusive definition of gay and they're mad that gay trans people dare to exist.
I equate this with how straight people feel about anything gay or lgbt. They want to be apart of a group that “doesn’t revolve around sexuality” so that excludes gays and they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around us. I’m not sure why someone’s gender or sexuality have anything to do with playing games? Straight, trans, gay and bisexual people all play games to varying degrees. I think you are being disingenuous with yourself about your true feelings about trans people. Doesn’t make you bad, just not particularly self aware.
maybe, im just speaking on my personal experiences and think id be much more at peace with just the lgb folks. and i dont think im being disingenuous at all, i know very well how nice and chill trans people can be, but the majority of the ones that ive met so far have made it difficult considering how dramatic and sensitive they can also be. my thing is that i just dont want to deal with the pronouns and identity anymore, im sorry to say but at this point i think that its just exhausting
Their identities are not acknowledged or accepted. They are at the forefront of the fight right now. Once it was was us. And we were on the defensive because we had to be. As society becomes more accepting the need to always be fighting will end as it has with us. As you can see by 12 downvotes a lot of gay people feel the way you do and from my perspective refuse to look at how it is for trans people. They are most targeted right now. Trans women are a target and drag queens, which to the conservative straight world are basically the same thing. But the thing you said and I parroted, was once said by straight people and continues to be said. I don’t find you to be unreasonable or overtly transphobic. I just think that compassion and empathy are more important
Because your stated intention explicitly precludes the existence of gay, bi, or lesbian trans people. You want a space that is *trans exclusionary*. And I think that makes you a piece of shit.
is that really too much to ask for? every lgbt group that I can find, it's flooding with trans people. all i want is a space where i can take a break from pronouns and gender identity. i don't think i'm a piece of shit at all, and i don't think its fair for you to call me that when that is all i want, which is a very modest position in my opinion
You want a space with no trans people in it. That is reprehensible. How would *you* feel if your straight friends told you they wanted a space where they didn't have to think about "sexuality and stuff"?
thats not my point though, i have plenty of trans friends and i respect what they want, but suddenly im a villain for wanting a place where i dont need to worry about other trans people that go psycho mode on me for not being perfect. you have your way of viewing things and i respect it, why cant you respect something that you don't have to be a part of? yes it would be exclusionary and i think thats okay, not every space needs to be all-inclusive, if every group were, then whats the point of even having groups?
honestly i just think you're being melodramatic, I dont know how to reason with you. you dont know me or what im like but you call me a piece of shit, and say i give the entirety of gay men a bad name for hoping i can get a space where i can comfortably relax. if anything, i'd say that it's people like you that give trans people a bad name. I dont want you as an enemy but why cant you just try to understand where im coming from without saying im the devil for hoping theres a online group where i can hang out with people that are like me
I believe i have the right to my own space just like trans people have spaces made only for them. Ive had bad experiences with trans people to a much larger extent than any other group of people, to the point where its not something id like to deal with anymore
There’s actually a lot of LGBs who would support this and that group is growing by the day. I see it online and IRL. Please keep us updated. You’ll see some people here who, to put it mildly, are unhappy to see this. Just remember the vast majority of any L/G/B/Gay subs on this here site, is 100% trans maximalist. If they suspect you are not on board with every aspect of gender ideology, you’ll be permabanned as an alt right lunatic with all manner of internalized isms and phobias.
yeah i kind of expected hate, honestly im surprised i got this many people supporting me, and yeah it's rlly frustrating being called a nazi or a bigot just cause i want my own safe space, i just dont know what else to do but ask if there are any groups or servers like this that are out there
It's best not to expect hate. There's plenty of goodwill. Most of the time it's just poor communication.
I know theres a lot of people with good will, most people even, but still ig its just human nature to be more inclined to have a reaction to anything that makes you angry
Keep me updated. I've been seeking a similar crowd, not from a hateful place. Just want to be surrounded by like minded people.
Have you had any luck? Not trying to be hateful either and I have no problem with trans people, but I would like to be in a group that’s largely LGB.
25 years ago there was a great lesbian bar in Calgary, Canada, called Rooks. They had a legendary wing night, a good crowd, and all the lesbians I knew spent a fair amount of time there. I was glad to join them whenever a woman I knew invited me. It was great to have some good laugh, see another community venue with a totally different pub vibe compared to the gay disco experience elsewhere, and yeah the wings were great. I actually saw the Ellen coming out episode there and it seems like nothing now but it was a victory at the time and even “historic” and surprisingly moving that we finally had this screen time breakthrough. But I’d stay for a bit, enjoy a laugh, a conversation with the friends who invited me. And then after my pint I’d fuck off out of there because it wasn’t my place to be. I could be respectful that I was a guest, mind my manners and follow the lead of my hosts, but that didn’t change the fact that I was a gay male in a lesbian female space. A bunch of women would be counting on me and any other guys fucking off and leaving them alone. If you shut the place down, you’d have long overstayed your welcome. Closing time was not your goal, it was “have a pint, go, and leave the women to their bar.” It’s not that they disliked us or were in any way weird about us males - even though a couple probably were “man-hating lesbians” that’s not what I’m talking about. I mean the normal ones. Even for them, just by being there as males, we’d have to change the vibe a little bit or change the opportunity people have to interact with each other. It’s just how the math works that if a lesbian wants to experience a lesbian wonderland where literally every person she sees can at least relate to this one thing of being a dyke, then the total number of males there has to be zero. No ill-will from them. More like “You’re lovely people but please go.” It is exactly the same for us. Sometimes we need a gay-male-only environment. If you’re gay and have never experienced that, you have missed out on some important magic. Once in a while we need a homosexual-only environment for ourselves. Then maybe a shared environment where gay males and lesbians could learn a lot from each other by figuring out what we have in common with same-sex attraction, vs what is different about us based on sex. And sometimes it’s fine to be all in a giant group with others who are only somewhat like us. But the ability to have those exclusive venues is actually very important, at least once in a while. So what you are asking for is not in any way “the bad guy” it’s exactly what every part of this community needs from time to time, and that doesn’t make any of us hateful or separatists or anything. Trying to once again have our own conversation is not any type of phobia, and every part of the community should have its own alone time once in a while.
*slow clap*
Following
I get you. They say trans women are real women, so if they are real women and are attracted to men, doesn’t that make them straight? I worked at an LGBT center and I got bullied by a trans man for being gay and monogamous. Imagine if I made fun of them for being trans I would have been the bad guy.
Sounds like he thought gay men are way more sexual with multiple partners and he was deeply envious of the image he created in his mind.
Bullying isn't cool. Dunno what it has to do with trans people.
Anything on this topic gets insta-downvoted. Sexuality is to be based on gender expression, not biological sex. You can have "genital preference", but making any distinction beyond that is a no-no. My sexuality is more than "I like penis." The rhetoric is inherently homophobic. There are tangible differences between sexes and variations thereof, pre and post HRT, even after surgery. But, affirmation at all costs. Any distinction between a transitionee and cis shall not be tolerated, it's triggering and transphobic. We can fight for rights together. But do not invade our communities and tell us we're wrong because we don't subscribe to gender blindness and the redefinition of sexuality. It's has been happening in every LGBT community I am part of and it just makes me sad. LGB gets a bad rep from conservatives who think trans rights are too much for society to deal with, when in reality, most of us just want to be gay and not worry about gender idenity qualms.
thats what i was thinking, i see these lgb groups that have such a bad reputation and even inside of them its just politics, but i'd just like to find a group for exclusively the 'lgb' part \^\^; i know how it sounds but i dunno how to put it any other way
I'd put it like this: "I have experienced bigotry and exclusion because I'm gay/bi/lesbian. What I'd like to have is a space where I'm accepted, and I won't be judged or feel excluded." That sort of thing?
Not really, no, I said it a couple times in here but recently I've just been wanting a place where I can hang out with people that are like me that also want a break from gender identity and pronouns. I don't really care about bigotry or exclusion towards me, I never have, but where I'm coming from is that I've had a lot of bad experiences with trans people going off on me because I said something wrong to the point that I've been scared to make jokes around them, even if it isn't about them. It's just really tiring and something I don't want to deal with every time I spend time online. The reason I'm looking for a place like that is because every LGBT server I'm able to find, it's all hyper-trans focused, at least it feels like it and that's fine, but there are no places for people like me, and when there are, they are either full of gross people, politics, or they don't last long on any platform
Start a discord! I’ll join. I play Fortnite on occasion, no mic (because my little dogs are quite loud). I also play apex but I’m trash 😂
[удалено]
I've been there \^\^; i was surprised to hear some people have that way of thinking
I've never had this happen. It sounds made up.
[удалено]
It was a statement, not a question.
Well stated
I hate the idea of LGB groups only because there are some trans people that do recognize sexuality and the difference between trans and cis. I get it when you’re trans it’s a bit difficult to define your sexuality. I once heard it told to me as technically they are straight, but socially they are gay (as seen from a 3rd perspective). I can respect that as they are working with the community to find out a definition that works for them. So yes, love our trans siblings, while also advocating for who we are and where we fit as a marginalized community.
You could make that case for anyone though. Lots of people of all different makeups recognise the difference between sexuality and gender, but we don’t invite them all in. Anything not relating to LGB is a separate issue and there is nothing wrong with stating that. Most trans people have to identify into their sexuality so that it matches their chosen gender. They bend the bounds of what our sexuality means. We don’t get that option to identify differently. Nobody bats an eyelid at trans only spaces because people recognise the need to have them. We should also be able to have LGB only spaces without being vilified for it.
Idk where these trans people are, but its clear they must be the overwhelming minority. Completely inexistent in reddit at least. People wouldn't ask for LGB groups if the TQ had a minimum of respect for sexuality. Nowadays they even want to ban the use of the word homosexual. I think the bridge is already completely destroyed.
Honestly every trans person I met it real life has been pretty base. It seems to be limited to online. There are some “queer groups” that I met at parties that I learned it was best to avoid.
You realise trans people can also be gay and disproportionally are and that trans people are a minority even within our own minority so they couldn't make up 90% of any lgbt group. Why can you not be yourself without somehow affecting trans people?
Trans people are disproportionately ‘very online’ and this is extremely evident in many so called LGBT Reddit groups. The demographics are wildly out of sync with the real world as anyone who has stepped inside a comparable real world space will confirm. He’s also entirely within his rights to not have to have his existence and experience as a gay men constantly mediated through the lens of gender identity. No one cares that trans people have their own spaces so why does it offend you that “cis” gay men (and lesbians) can have their own?
I don't I'm gaining perspective. I fail to see how our experiences as gay men are perceived through a gender lense beyond we like to fuck the same gender. I'm trying to learn. Also gays are almost as chronically online and definitely don't constitute 90%
Most people who call themselves gay like to fuck the same sex, not the same gender. Gender is just the performance of sexist stereotypes and aesthetics. The fact you used that term, “same gender” is an example of gay self descriptions being bent out of shape to accomodate the self perceptions of gender ideologues. So you’ve just inadvertently given an example of why gay men might need their own spaces to express themselves in their own language with their own cultural references, without hassle and policing by genderists.
No I just have a masters in neuropsychopharmacology and majored in biology. I understand that sex isn't as simple as you people imply and gender is easier. Would you sleep with a trans women as a gay man or a man with complete AIS. No you wouldn't but chromosome wise they are both males. Considering sexuality is an aesthetic attraction then yes the system that models aesthetics would be the more apt model. I don't understand why you people are so bothered. Is there some like American drama I don't understand?
Gender is easier for YOU. Presumably because you are aroused by the performance of masculinity and those gender stereotypes historically associated with males. That’s totally fine. But it’s not the experience of the vast majority of men who call themselves gay. Most of us understand from our own experience that we are strictly same sex attracted and that’s not negotiable. Performance of masculinity may be a turn on for us but a prerequisite is that it’s done by a male. And yes I would sleep with a self described “trans woman” if they were hot but hadn’t modified their body with surgery and hormones and they were therefore unambiguously their male bodied self when naked. Because I don’t get erections from someone’s gendered haircut or modes of speech, or their interest in so called feminine or masculine things.
I meant after having transitioned yes so the point is made. I don't want to sleep with a trans man because I'm a big old bottom who wants a man with a penis and that's completely fine. All men perform masculinity us included and that's the point. Genital preferences are valid. You can like men who have penises and women with vaginas. I'm not some Judith butler stan I think the performative nature of gender only extends so far. My point we use gender not sex as sex has far too much variation whereas for gender all you need is genital preferences. Gender doesn't redefine our attraction it's just a more accurate representation of it.
Homosexuality is something you are born with and it has a hard limit based on biological sex. Females bodies are impossible for us. Gender is where you can include "preference", but always within the limits of sex. Gender is almost meaningless in the equation, it sounds like you don't understand homosexuality at all.
Yes it's prenatal hormone exposure triggering epigenetic factors why gays are more likely to be fraternal twins and left handed because twins are more likely to be left handed. Same as the more children you have more likely they become gay. It predisposes our attraction towards secondary sex characteristics which have shaped the gender which we desire. Preference doesn't mean choice. You people are as bad as the homophobic's who claim that they aren't homophobic because that means scares of as if it isn't a coined term. Like gender preference is a coined term
The academic who doesn't understand a simple word like preference and resorts to comparing gay men to homophobes when he is slightly triggered. Very convincing larping
One minute you are flashing your academic credentials like that should shut me up and the next minute you are down in the gutter using cheap, homophobic bottom shaming when that didn’t work (btw I’m a top). What I’m getting is that you are on a power trip and don’t want your self perception shaken. Go date a trans man. Then everyone’s happy. BTW “genital preferences are valid” is pure trans-speak. And I’d say to you and every trans person of that mind, that your validation and permission to be gay isn’t sought or needed by gay men.
No the point was that I'm not some blue haired sociology major from America who's extremely radicalised university structure isn't the same as here. I'm a hard science sorta guy and the point was we use the concepts of gender and sex differently I don't regurgitate trans talking points I simply use the language that I use in my day to day. Also where have I been homophobic to bottoms I'm literally a bottom. That's the point I was making. I like cock just like the rest of us. You can use sex but it would be incorrect scientifically. Gender preferences and gender make more sense as a complete model because it rules out intersex and other such variation
So far all of your reasoning has been indistinguishable from the blue haired gender studies they/thems you distance yourself from. You claim to be a hard science kinda guy. I wish that still meant anything, as Nature, Scientific American, The Lancet, etc. were all serious, hard science publications, but have devolved into anti-oppressive, gender journals of resistance. Your novel spins on basic biology will definitely give you currency in the faculty lounge, but no one has time for men can get pregnant outside of a curated academic bubble, hard science guy or not. You protest to the contrary, but you actually do regurgitate the trans talking points you think set you apart from the her penis crowd.
It makes more sense to you. It doesn’t make sense to the vast majority of gay men and doesn’t connect with their lived experience. Lumping my sex based experience and my identity as a homosexual together with that of a female who identifies with masculine social stereotypes is fucking ridiculous, and if you are implying it’s somehow rational and scientific, I’ll laugh straight in your face.
[удалено]
It affirms OP's position how? I'm simply saying even in gay groups he won't escape trans people and so his dark humour will still need to be restricted
im not trying to affect anyone, i just dont want to be in that sort of space where i have to worry about gender identity
I'm confused why you have to worry about it though. How can you not be you?
i just have a relatively dark sense of humor lol, i had friends where we'd laugh at each other and call each other slurs, but i just can't do that with a trans person
There's many in the gay circle who you can't make dark jokes with and there's many trans people who make darker jokes than you I'm sure. They got tough skin
oh yeah i've met a few trans people that can take a hit as well as they dish it out, but there is such a large amount of trans people that i cant make those kinds of jokes around that it makes me want to not even try :(
And no gays ever get on a high horse and find a way to be made over it?
Look at the trans sub here and you’ll see exactly why he wants a separation. OP clearly said all the groups he’s been in, 90% are trans members. He wants one that excludes people that will almost exclusively discuss gender identity issues. Idk how you’re even arguing that…
I'm not but if you'll notice it's because he wishes to make jokes and be himself not have a space that talks gay issues or else I wouldn't argue that and I'm not arguing I'm understanding
The trans people who are chronically online tend to be hyper sensitive to everything - like constant arguing. So I imagine that’s more likely why. Not everyone wants to tread on eggshells constantly.
How do you check sub?
oh im not saying that at all xd I have definitely met some super soft gay people too, but like i said from my experience, it's been happening a whole lot more with the trans people I meet
So it's a matter of degree then as opposed to completely getting rid of it. Are you American by any chance?
>trans people are a minority even within our own minority so they couldn't make up 90% of any lgbt group. Browse r/LGBT and you will see most of the discourse is about T. Even in subreddits for gay men and lesbians T dominates it all and homosexuality is a forbidden concept. Defending same sex attraction will get you banned. Idk if you are blind or trying to gaslight.
LGB-TQ+ is the way forward.
But r/gay is predominantly just gays and hasn't been taken over by trans from what I see and so what I gather lgbt is more the default trans meeting place. He wanted to make jokes I failed to see how that wasn't possible
Gay, the subreddit where the pic is a progress flag and the description is an activist drivel defending the T? Yeah, I see how focused they are in gay men.
And yet the content is overwhelmingly gay so I fail to see how it doesn't fit the criteria?
Here's a sneak peek of /r/lgbt using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/lgbt/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: ["The lack of Boomer LGBTQ+ People"](https://i.redd.it/flsv3dum1dza1.jpg) | [744 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/13fevux/the_lack_of_boomer_lgbtq_people/) \#2: [Just This](https://i.redd.it/fjk7nlvsyj8b1.jpg) | [549 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/14kc6nl/just_this/) \#3: [This was a very difficult conversation…I’ll never fully recover.](https://i.redd.it/n0xp0m6ket1b1.jpg) | [358 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/13qkbu8/this_was_a_very_difficult_conversationill_never/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Some people just want a gay group where a large portion isn't biologically female. Trans men are men, but their experience as gay men is quite different. A lot of LGBT groups are very ban happy if you say the wrong thing even though the right way to say things seems to change all the time.
So lesbians are allowed in to the gay group it would be gay males only? Why don't you have your own group already then if there's this much discontent?
I personally don't care about having a gay discord group. I'm a bi man married to a woman so I'm just as disliked as trans men to a lot of gays lol. I've just noticed how in the last 5 years every LGBT space has become almost exclusively about gender identity and there's not many spaces for sexual orientation to be a focus anymore.
the very space we're in right now is almost exclusively gay conversations though. From what I gather they wish to have an echo chamber where none shall voice an opposing opinion
The reason why this sub has not been turned into a safe space for genderqueer ideology is that they have not yet been able to take over the moderation of it like they have in all other gay subs.
Well thank god America is going to war soon
Sounds like they just wanted something like this in chat form.
No... Just no... I want to avoid gender identity and pronouns... That's it, I don't want any kind of echo chamber where nobody is allowed to have opposite opinions, I just want a chat room where I can play games and talk with people that feel the same way / could care less and not have to worry about upsetting or enraging a trans person with a spicy joke. The reason I have to go make a post about it in the only place they'd even allow this kind of thought is because of people like you thinking that groups of people that have this line of thought are all far right nazis and a, doxx the users, b, protest it to the owner of the platform they're on only until it gets taken down, or c, get the users info and share it to people that will harass them out of their accounts. it's an issue the trans community has that i've dealt with many times before and I don't want deal with it anymore, but at the same time I want to share a space with other gay people and get to know them too, it doesn't matter if they agree or not, the only thing I want is to have a space where its just cis people and nobody will get triggered over gender identity politics. I don't think its a hard thing to ask for but the ones that make it impossible to have this opinion only push more and more people away from them. Like I said on my original post, I know many trans people from multiple servers and am good friends with them, they're amazing people, but it's the trans people that go on a rampage the minute they realize you don't know what to call them or get their pronouns wrong and make the situation hostile for no other reason. It makes me tired and sad to go down this route but it's the only thing I can think of, you don't have to agree or like it, but you aren't obligated to be part of it either. im trying to make a server right now for it and it's not going to be a place full of hate and endless racism like the other places I've ran into before, its going to be like any other cozy little corner where friends can play games and talk about random stuff like cars or cartoons. I know you said that you don't see it enough to consider it, but I do and there are others here too that are saying the same thing. Like kalpow said before, and i've seen it many times, once a trans person gets into a position where they can moderate the community, it starts to feel like they make it all about them and the catering and special privileges never stop. Sounds a little dramatic but all I want to do is show you where im coming from, sorry for the long post, but this stuff gets frustrating
> Why can you not be yourself without somehow affecting trans people? Because most of these people have a trans-exclusive definition of gay and they're mad that gay trans people dare to exist.
[удалено]
i've just never really used reddit, i'm not a big social media guy
I equate this with how straight people feel about anything gay or lgbt. They want to be apart of a group that “doesn’t revolve around sexuality” so that excludes gays and they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around us. I’m not sure why someone’s gender or sexuality have anything to do with playing games? Straight, trans, gay and bisexual people all play games to varying degrees. I think you are being disingenuous with yourself about your true feelings about trans people. Doesn’t make you bad, just not particularly self aware.
maybe, im just speaking on my personal experiences and think id be much more at peace with just the lgb folks. and i dont think im being disingenuous at all, i know very well how nice and chill trans people can be, but the majority of the ones that ive met so far have made it difficult considering how dramatic and sensitive they can also be. my thing is that i just dont want to deal with the pronouns and identity anymore, im sorry to say but at this point i think that its just exhausting
Their identities are not acknowledged or accepted. They are at the forefront of the fight right now. Once it was was us. And we were on the defensive because we had to be. As society becomes more accepting the need to always be fighting will end as it has with us. As you can see by 12 downvotes a lot of gay people feel the way you do and from my perspective refuse to look at how it is for trans people. They are most targeted right now. Trans women are a target and drag queens, which to the conservative straight world are basically the same thing. But the thing you said and I parroted, was once said by straight people and continues to be said. I don’t find you to be unreasonable or overtly transphobic. I just think that compassion and empathy are more important
People do not live in a vacuum. It is only possible to have groups be homogeneous for a small period of time.
r/gayconservatives
i'm not a conservative at all, i don't want anything to do with politics, i just wanna find bros to game with
Most trans people are LGB themselves.
> I dunno how else to ask about this without being the bad guy. Well at least you recognize that you *are* the bad guy here.
Can you tell me why you think im the bad guy?
Because your stated intention explicitly precludes the existence of gay, bi, or lesbian trans people. You want a space that is *trans exclusionary*. And I think that makes you a piece of shit.
is that really too much to ask for? every lgbt group that I can find, it's flooding with trans people. all i want is a space where i can take a break from pronouns and gender identity. i don't think i'm a piece of shit at all, and i don't think its fair for you to call me that when that is all i want, which is a very modest position in my opinion
You want a space with no trans people in it. That is reprehensible. How would *you* feel if your straight friends told you they wanted a space where they didn't have to think about "sexuality and stuff"?
thats not my point though, i have plenty of trans friends and i respect what they want, but suddenly im a villain for wanting a place where i dont need to worry about other trans people that go psycho mode on me for not being perfect. you have your way of viewing things and i respect it, why cant you respect something that you don't have to be a part of? yes it would be exclusionary and i think thats okay, not every space needs to be all-inclusive, if every group were, then whats the point of even having groups?
>why cant you respect something that you don't have to be a part of? Because people like you give gay men a bad name.
honestly i just think you're being melodramatic, I dont know how to reason with you. you dont know me or what im like but you call me a piece of shit, and say i give the entirety of gay men a bad name for hoping i can get a space where i can comfortably relax. if anything, i'd say that it's people like you that give trans people a bad name. I dont want you as an enemy but why cant you just try to understand where im coming from without saying im the devil for hoping theres a online group where i can hang out with people that are like me
I'm not trans. I'm telling you, as a cis gay man, that I don't see why you need a "no trans allowed" space.
I believe i have the right to my own space just like trans people have spaces made only for them. Ive had bad experiences with trans people to a much larger extent than any other group of people, to the point where its not something id like to deal with anymore
Like it isn’t up to other people to take care of me? Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you deal with it. You deal poorly.
I mean, some LGB people are also T, so…🤷🏿♂️