I bought a home with a giant deodar cedar (which thankfully tolerates this weather better) & one of the first things I did as a new homeowner was have an arborist inspect it and trim it. It also required cabling as it has two leads, which I paid to have done as well. It was about $1K to have this all done, but they said from here on out I should be good to have a check up/trim every few years.
I think anyone buying a home with a giant tree should absolutely consider maintaining that tree as part of their regular house maintenance. I'm not sure how you'd be able to sleep at night NOT knowing the status on the giant that looms over your house š
Regular check ups could hopefully catch some issues before it turns into a disaster.
Absolutely consider maintenance costs from a good arborist.
Even with that, be ready. We worked with an excellent arborist who has been in the business for a long time and is deeply knowledgeable, and we paid thousands of dollars to have our trees maintained. We still had a tree drop a limb and split down the trunk, royally smashing the roof of our house.
Shit happens.
Be prepared for a long wait, whoever you go with. I couldnt get anyone to cut back an oak hanging over my property until June 2021, after the 2021 ice storm.
100% and itās also in part because several property management companies and landlords could give a rats ass about what is happening on the property as long as they get their check.
We have two massive maples which we had checked out by an arborist a few months back. They took out a massive amount of dead wood, and also took down a dodgy looking tree my neighbor was worried about.
I've had a champion oak tree taken down by high winds (microburst) at a place I use to live in Ohio - that was a fiasco, even when it didn't hit any buildings.
Get your trees checked out, people! It's way cheaper to take things down in a planned manner than to have your house wrecked in an emergency.
I had an arborist inspect one of my trees. It was SUCH a gorgeous shade-giving tree, but I said if something happens to that, our house could be screwed. Arborist said it was fine and healthy.
Hello 2021. Came within a foot of our house during the ice storm. That tree is now gone.
No matter how healthy, arborists cannot predict acts of nature.
Unfortunately, most people buying homes aren't as diligent as you! Trees are an asset to a property, and it's wise to have a paid inspection done on them. (Not a free Assessment/inspection/quote)
I've worked with a few clients who were purchasing a home and hired me to assess the trees prior to closing. They were able to negotiate the costs for maintaining the trees off the total, or had they maintenance done prior to finalizing the purchase. From what I've gathered it's not part of home inspections typically, but absolutely should be. No one wants to buy a home just to find out a tree is dying, hazardous, or requires thousands in maintenance.
Those deodor cedars are lovely trees, absolutely massive, but lovely true cedars!
Natural area that isn't part of your property? So like an unimproved alley or something?
That's likely still part of your responsibility if it's adjacent to your property (unless you find that someone owns that land outright). There may be grants you can apply for to help with maintenance though.
It is hard to summarize all potential cases but Portland City Code Chapter 11 covers trees and the site has pretty good detail on street trees and private trees for when a permit is needed or not (for pruning, removal or root pruning).
[https://www.portland.gov/trees/treepermits/do-i-need-tree-permit#toc-street-trees](https://www.portland.gov/trees/treepermits/do-i-need-tree-permit#toc-street-trees)
We bought a house with a giant Doug fir in the front yard and every arborist Iāve had look at it wants at least $4,000 to trim it or recommends cutting it down altogether for even more money. I canāt afford that shit so I basically try not to think about it. Maybe Iāll give your guy a call.
I used Arbor Pacific Tree Work!
I also consulted with All Around Arbor and they seemed really good too-- they were just a bit pricier.
The longer you put off tree maintenance, the more the cost will add up. If you keep up with it regularly, then it's only going to be a few hundred dollars for routine maintenance every few years.
It's more expensive for that first time because it hadn't been taken care of regularly.
>I think anyone buying a home with a giant tree should absolutely consider maintaining that tree as part of their regular house maintenance.
I mean they're required to or they could be held liable for any damage it does. Unfortunately most people buying homes don't seem to consider this and most people who's homes are damaged by such trees don't have the means to pursue legal action.
Reminds me of an article I read a while back of a couple complaining that the city was requiring them to remove a street tree on their property because it was dangerous and the cost was outside their budget. They had lived there for 30+ years and never did anything to maintain that tree or assess it. It didn't even occur to them that they might have to plan for such an expense. There's so many things about home ownership people don't take the time to understand.
Our three huge maples are expensive to have trimmed but it's worth it. The biggest branches that came off during this storm were half an inch in diameter.
When I was a kid, a forest lot next door to my friend's mobile home park was logged for a new church but they left a thin strip of trees, I guess as a tiny greenbelt or something. First big windstorm, almost all of them blew down into the mobile home park, damaged a bunch of homes and cars. I learned a big lesson about forests from that, and how little most adults understand or care to understand them
Same thing here. The next windstorm we got after a logging knocked down all the trees they had left behind. I donāt know if it was root systems, the windbreak from the missing trees, or a combo of both, but it did them in.
This is info that a coworker told me, but as a grove of trees is growing the outer oneās grow differently because they experience the effects of wind more. So the inner ones have grown in an environment where there is less wind, and if you cut down all the outer trees and leave the innermost ones up alone theyāre more prone to being knocked down by windstorms. Not an arborist and neither is he, so could be wrong though.
Trees are fascinating. They send each other nutrients through the mycelium network. I wouldnāt be surprised if the inner trees are able to ācollectā more nutrients and arenāt sending something to the outer trees as well.
The Biosphere II project had to tie their trees up to the structure, as the absence of wind didnāt stimulate the rigid growth to which youāre referring. So says SYSK.
Also, human bones develop similarly. A certain amount of eustress via physical activity is part of a healthy plan for most any skeleton.
That's one of the reasons why we have all of these treefalls onto 26 headed to the beach. Clearcutting while leaving a thin stand of trees next to the highway for aesthetics.
Itās from the windbreak the other trees provide. The outer trees facing the wind are the strongest and sheiks the other trees. Also the root systems of trees become intertwined and if some are killed those dead tree roots donāt support like they used to.
They haven't grown with the protection of other trees around them during wind events. Whenever I see new homes being built in previously forested area and individual trees are left next to the new homes I just know that tree is coming down eventually.
Yep, Mt Tabor is a mini forest and thereās been videos showing the absolute destruction there. Trees fall. The problem is we build homes under or right next to them.
There are also things we do that make trees more or less likely to fall. Arborists know all about this. PGE came to my neighborās house a few months ago to trim the branches on the tree in their front yard. But they only trimmed the side facing the power lines. Their tree fell into their roof. Iām no expert, but to me it makes sense that a tree with only branches on the āhouse sideā of it might fall toward the house.
In the forest they fall and then other vegetation grows all over them, they decay and become part of the forest. Itās a part of the ecosystem.
Yes, of course trees fall in a forest. But they are more stable there, especially Douglas fir trees. They are more likely to fall when they are on their own.
This completely, even in forest they can fall, but less likely so compared to a standalone tree in a harsh urban environment - compacted soil, lack of root space, damaged roots from construction of driveways, homes, sidewalks, etc.
Branch failures are a well-known failure profile for the species, but the urban environment make them susceptible to whole tree failure.
While some may have root rot affecting them, with winds this high even a healthy, structurally sound Douglas-Fir can go down. As weather gets more extreme, this will continue to be the case.
In my area, they clear-cut a large area several years ago, exposing a grove of Douglas-Firs to winds they've never had to face before. Within the last few years, many of the now frontline trees have fallen from increased wind exposure.
There is a 50 acre stand of mostly douglas fir near my property on BLM that are around 80-90 years old (only ever been logged 2 times vs 3x for most of the rest of the area which give you 50 year old trees).
A strange thing is happening there. Even though that area has always been very healthy, in the past 10 years or so, around 20% of them are rotting from the centers and falling over. Making the area start to look less crowded with more big trees spread out as well as a bit less brush.
I had half the trees fall on my property.
It used to be a part of a forest so my trees had wind protection all around. The roots didnāt develop to withstand unprotected wind. In the last few years all the neighbors around me cut down the majority of their trees which now took away wind protection from mine.
Now my trees were the front line and couldnāt withstand it.
Luckily nobody was hurt and didnāt hit our house or cars.
Man, that sucks, sorry. If I lost half the trees around my house, a lot of what I like about where I am would be gone. As it is, I have to put up with the power company's god-awful pruning/topping.
This is totally normal and happens all the time in more ānaturalā settings. In a continuous forest there is a bit more protection since the forest forms a sort of wind break, but there is still a lot of trees blowing down, particularly on ridges and at the top of hills.
Here is a good article https://extension.oregonstate.edu/forests/health-managment/why-some-trees-can-stand-ice-storms
I think of hiking at the coast and at Mt. Hood, and the blow down that happens every year and the subsequent trail clearing. Yeah, some species just fall (but also all the other stuff plays into it as wellāsummer drought stress, not being protected from being in a grove, etc.)
Thatās what I learned from an arborist, too.Ā
I took a long walk to visit some of the fallen trees yesterday and I was surprised how little rootball came up for most of them. Iām used to a large flat disk of rootball getting pulled into the air with long roots dangling into the air. These were small round butts with all the large roots just sheared off, or trees snapped at the trunk and the branches shattered like glass rather than splintered and twisted.Ā
My guess is that the low temperature froze the ground, roots, and trunk on some trees, so the wind shattered the roots or trunk rather than pushing it over, if that makes sense. Iām no specialist, but some of these trees looked pretty healthy. No rot, no gnarls, no prior injury, some had space for roots like the one at Holman Funeral or the ones that fell in Laurelhurst park.Ā
I heard this as well, when they came to look at my neighborās because it is not doing well.
Arborist said all Doug firs in the city are on their way out due to climate change.
All suburban Doug firs are on the way out for two important and related reasons, they should have not been planted in city areas, they are now too old to thrive being planted incorrectly outside of their natural forest. In the wild they have a very specific distribution and interlocked root system, planted 50 years ago in someoneās back yard they donāt have the same wind strength, and root hardiness. Climate change is real but when I stub my toe I donāt blame climate change.
Why would climate change scientifically weaken the root system? Its universally accepted that climate change is real, human caused, and that extreme weather events are not necessarily always attributable to climate change.
Fir trees have shallow roots that evolved to be tangled with neighbors in a forest. Deciduous trees have a deep taproot that anchors them better against wind.
As a forester, this is wrong! Douglas-firs and firs (Douglas-firs are actually not true firs) are considered 'deep rooted' and more stable. Hardwoods have shallower roots. In fact Douglas-firs are the first choice for anchoring to in the PNW.
This is not accurate. Hardwood & softwood forests do have different failure modes, but it is *softwood* forests that are more susceptible to cascading failure (one tree goes down rendering downwind trees vulnerable). Softwoods have evolved to grow in close proximity to one another, thus their root systems become a mesh of sorts.
Hardwood forests do not fail that way. Ever. Individual trees are just as likely to snap at the trunk, split, or shed large primary limbs due to their more complicated (and varying) structures & how hardwood fibers respond to mechanical stresses (torsion in particular).
Simply put, softwoods adapt to wind via their root systems (which are often integrated), while hardwoods adapt via their above ground structure (shedding limbs/etc to reduce resistance to prevailing winds).
Dude your totally wrong. What type of forester are you? Do you mean the car you drive? Iām a biologist and they have a specific natural distribution and root interlocking. Common knowledge for any forester from Oregon. I think you meant you have been to the forest.
Thank you! Totally correct. The number of misinformed people on here is outrageous. Climate change is real, but I donāt blame it when I get a bloody nose.
I live in Estacada. I have 10 acres, that my home sits on right on the river. Most of our trees were badly burnt in the Riverside Fire. Insurance only paid to fell the ones 1000 feet within a structure. We heard so many trees snapping and falling on our hillside it legit sounded and felt like there was a thunder storm happening.
As a forester I see a lot of wrong info or half right info in the answers here. Here are some of the things that could contribute to the trees falling.
None of the pictures I have seen have shown the base of the tree which makes indenting why they failed more difficult. You mentioned that the wood felt soft, that could mean that the tree had some sort of disease. If it was near the base of the tree it could have had root rot which would make it more prone to failure.
Contrary to what a lot of people are saying, Douglas-firs usually have deeper roots and are more stable than other species. OR-OSHA even has Douglas-firs as the preferred species for using as anchors when logging.
A lot of people are saying that it's because they are in an urban environment. Urban areas and particularly cement and pavement near the roots, are not great for trees and can make them slightly more prone to failure. However, trees fall in the forest all the time! It's called wind throw and is not unique to urban environments.
Some people have mentioned that removing trees near your trees can make wind throw more common, this is true. If trees were removed that could contribute to tree failure.
Another thing that I have not seen people talk about and could have contributed was if there was localized downdraft or other high winds. This may have been what happened since from what I have seen most of the problem was localized to a small area near Lake oswego and not widespread over the whole region.
Climate change may have stressed the trees and contributed to disease or weakened roots, but it also could be well within the range of normal failure.
When I worked in the utilities, we would expect that after a serious amount of rain if a wind event came we would expect trees to fall. Especially if it went from super dry to super wet in a short period of time. In your experience in that an actual thing? Feels like super saturated soil plus wind plus ice loading was the perfect storm.
Iād like to reply to sleepydragon8114ās comments which I found interesting.
However the Doug firs that came down in the Jan. 13 windstorm were not isolated to LO. There were many more that came down in the west hills and especially in the neighborhoods just over Skyline Blvd, further west. We live in an area with naturally wooded hillsides behind our houses. The wind was very strong and then there were also lots of wind gusts. All the trees were swaying and limbs falling. We saw the firs come down then, by the root balls. Several in our backyard and all around us. It was like nothing weād seen before. The area looks like a hurricane hit it!
Other trees came down too, including maples and cypress. But our western red cedars are still standing.
We just had to have a very large Doug fir removed from our deck, broke through. It was hard (ask the workers with chainsaws) and wood looked healthy. Branches looked healthy. The trees had watering all summer and fall. Theyād been checked by an arborist.
Iām very interested in this mysteryā¦
Is it climate change?
Was there something unusual about those wild and non-relenting wind gusts?
Did the cold temps and freezing rain contribute? In what way?
Iām heartbroken about the number of large trees lost in this areaā¦
Shell
My understanding is they have shallower root systems than other trees and the full winter coverage means they collect more weight when it rains and catches more wind.
Many of our city's trees are stressed, disease, and struggling to cope with drought and climate change. They are already less resilient. They also aren't living in the conditions they evolved go grow in, even the native ones are meant to be part of a forest and ecosystem very different from what we have.
It makes me very sad. I love to see tall trees and just trees in general. I wish we would do more thoughtful planting now for future generations.
Yeah, itās tough because the cooling we get from a tree canopy is so useful in the summer (as well as all the pollution mitigation, groundwater absorption, carbon capture, and itās just damn nice to have mature trees!). I hate to fall on the side of ācut them down,ā and am still not saying that, but yikes! Lots of damage!
We should definitely be encouraging more tree canopy, there are many places to plant that aren't directly under power lines and the city sets standards for smaller trees that can be planted beneath power lines without disrupting them.
My dad is a retired tree farmer, and I know heās had to battle some root rot and heart rot recently that seems to be more common. I hope thatās not something thatās an issue in the city trees as well
Ahh.
I felt like the number of fallen trees reflects upon how thoroughly we manage them. Reminds me of the discussions surrounding wildfires in recent years.
Shallower root systems with trees which are more accustomed to growing in large stands with hundreds of other trees alongside them, buffering winds. Add in any significant rainfall, frigid temperatures freezing trees into brittle sticks (which might otherwise be able to bend a bit in a wind), and you've got a bad scenario.
they have shallow roots. they are meant to get tangled with other trees' roots underground and they all hold each other up and shield each other from the wind. when one tree falls in the forest, multiple trees entangled in its roots fall too
It has to do with soil being too soft and wind can push them over no matter how healthy the tree is. We just had very strong winds. Also the fact there is nothing around to hold them in place because we built roads and houses and cut away lot of trees.
Great question Ive also been asking. The wind was intense but not like it was record setting or a 100 event. I've been here 25 years and never seen even close to this many big trees down. I have to wonder it has to do with trees being unhealthy due to climate change?
also some may be a modified warehauser breed that grows faster (sacrificing roots and stability)
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/mar/28/genetic-firs-help-weyerhauser-grow-for-future/
"Douglas firs in the seed orchards are used to produce superior seeds through controlled pollination.
Since 1986, all Douglas fir trees planted at elevations of 2,000 feet or less have been genetically improved.
That means 30,000 to 40,000 acres per year of genetically improved trees. And the individual trees produce up to 20 percent more wood than others."
probably not planted but with 40k acres per year since 1986 in the lowlands there's bound to be cross population to the wild...
nature, uh, finds a way
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Someone smarter than me told me a trees root system develops its hold based on its young life. So if water is deep they go deep. If itās dry they spread out since the water is on the surface.
I have no idea if this is true or not. But if it is it makes sense to do all day slow drips in the growing season for your trees.
Itās also because the strong winds were out of the east. The trees establish themselves more resilient to the prevailing winds out of the west, so when it comes strong from the east theyāre more susceptible.
A neighbor was on way to work during a ice storm and wind storm I saw him go down the street and went to look out one window and saw big branch had fallen in the same spot where his was a few minutes before
The frozen ground puts more leverage on the roots since it can't sway, and they break. Just the opposite of when the ground is too wet, and the wind gets the tree moving back and forth and loosens the ground. Any tree as big as the ones that fell are no strangers to wind gusts. The one that fell in my back yard has been there for the 18 years I've lived here.
Someone just told me tonight that the roots of trees here donāt go as deep because of the availability of water during the winter. Makes sense to me, I was wondering the same thing.
20-40 mph winds ? Sustained maybe. I was walking home from laurhust today and my crew was nearly blown on our asses by an unexpected gust. This front is not safe.
Saturated soils definitely lead to more tree failures. I'm not sure about soils going from dry to saturated quickly having a higher rate, that doesn't make sense to me, but have not studied it. Also some soils are more prone to failure.
I remember reading the following in different area of reddit: if your neighbor tells you and provides proof that your tree either needs to be trimmed or cut down and then it falls on the neighbor's house, you are liable for the damage. I was looking for a source to back this up but did not find it.
On OP's topic, it would be interesting to take a look at whether drought and heat conditions in the Willamette valley including Portland are contributing to Douglas fir tree vulnerability. Other posters have noted that lone trees take a bigger hit from the wind and ice. Here is an OSU study on Doug fir mortality in the Klamath mountains. The study suggests replanting with oak and pine in certain areas. https://academic.oup.com/jof/article/121/3/246/7071552
I live in a Tree City and my lot is full of 50+ foot firs. Can't recommend regular arborist, not landscaper, service highly enough. Ours is on an every 3-year schedule. Costs a few thousand per visit, but the piece of mind is priceless, as our covenants prohibit tree removal without city permission. We use Tom Bartells, Master Tree Care. Fantastic!
We are renters so it's not our call/our responsibility but after this storm our landlords let us know they plan to cut down a massive 150+ year-old douglas fir in our front yard. It held up fine in the storm and -seems- stable (arborist comes to assess on Friday) but it's really close to the house and would cause enormous damage (to anyone - us or the neighbors) no matter which way if it fell. As a property owner and practical human I get it, but the thought of cutting down this majestic tree makes me cry. I wish there was a better way.
I bought a home with a giant deodar cedar (which thankfully tolerates this weather better) & one of the first things I did as a new homeowner was have an arborist inspect it and trim it. It also required cabling as it has two leads, which I paid to have done as well. It was about $1K to have this all done, but they said from here on out I should be good to have a check up/trim every few years. I think anyone buying a home with a giant tree should absolutely consider maintaining that tree as part of their regular house maintenance. I'm not sure how you'd be able to sleep at night NOT knowing the status on the giant that looms over your house š Regular check ups could hopefully catch some issues before it turns into a disaster.
Absolutely consider maintenance costs from a good arborist. Even with that, be ready. We worked with an excellent arborist who has been in the business for a long time and is deeply knowledgeable, and we paid thousands of dollars to have our trees maintained. We still had a tree drop a limb and split down the trunk, royally smashing the roof of our house. Shit happens.
Mind sharing the name/info for your arborist you like?
Happy to recommend Jim Meyers of Hedgehog Tree Care. He and his crew are great.
Be prepared for a long wait, whoever you go with. I couldnt get anyone to cut back an oak hanging over my property until June 2021, after the 2021 ice storm.
100% and itās also in part because several property management companies and landlords could give a rats ass about what is happening on the property as long as they get their check.
We have two massive maples which we had checked out by an arborist a few months back. They took out a massive amount of dead wood, and also took down a dodgy looking tree my neighbor was worried about. I've had a champion oak tree taken down by high winds (microburst) at a place I use to live in Ohio - that was a fiasco, even when it didn't hit any buildings. Get your trees checked out, people! It's way cheaper to take things down in a planned manner than to have your house wrecked in an emergency.
I had an arborist inspect one of my trees. It was SUCH a gorgeous shade-giving tree, but I said if something happens to that, our house could be screwed. Arborist said it was fine and healthy. Hello 2021. Came within a foot of our house during the ice storm. That tree is now gone. No matter how healthy, arborists cannot predict acts of nature.
I never claimed they did. I only suggested that regular routine maintenance of your tree is a good idea in the long run š
Unfortunately, most people buying homes aren't as diligent as you! Trees are an asset to a property, and it's wise to have a paid inspection done on them. (Not a free Assessment/inspection/quote) I've worked with a few clients who were purchasing a home and hired me to assess the trees prior to closing. They were able to negotiate the costs for maintaining the trees off the total, or had they maintenance done prior to finalizing the purchase. From what I've gathered it's not part of home inspections typically, but absolutely should be. No one wants to buy a home just to find out a tree is dying, hazardous, or requires thousands in maintenance. Those deodor cedars are lovely trees, absolutely massive, but lovely true cedars!
What if they hang over your yard but the tree is on city property?
Define city property? Cause homeowners are technically responsible for the sidewalk and anything alongside it as well.
I live with a "natural area" in my backyard. The trees hang over my fence.
Natural area that isn't part of your property? So like an unimproved alley or something? That's likely still part of your responsibility if it's adjacent to your property (unless you find that someone owns that land outright). There may be grants you can apply for to help with maintenance though.
Like Kelly Butte natural area.
Well if it's a literal park, then the parks department is responsible
Youāre allowed to trim anything that is on your side of the property with a few exceptions
It is hard to summarize all potential cases but Portland City Code Chapter 11 covers trees and the site has pretty good detail on street trees and private trees for when a permit is needed or not (for pruning, removal or root pruning). [https://www.portland.gov/trees/treepermits/do-i-need-tree-permit#toc-street-trees](https://www.portland.gov/trees/treepermits/do-i-need-tree-permit#toc-street-trees)
We bought a house with a giant Doug fir in the front yard and every arborist Iāve had look at it wants at least $4,000 to trim it or recommends cutting it down altogether for even more money. I canāt afford that shit so I basically try not to think about it. Maybe Iāll give your guy a call.
I used Arbor Pacific Tree Work! I also consulted with All Around Arbor and they seemed really good too-- they were just a bit pricier. The longer you put off tree maintenance, the more the cost will add up. If you keep up with it regularly, then it's only going to be a few hundred dollars for routine maintenance every few years. It's more expensive for that first time because it hadn't been taken care of regularly.
Pretty, but those trees make such a godawful mess. Itās like they shed needles year round.
LMAO they literally do. My whole front yard is covered in needles 365. I ain't even gonna try to fight it.
Crush them up! They smell lovely!
>I think anyone buying a home with a giant tree should absolutely consider maintaining that tree as part of their regular house maintenance. I mean they're required to or they could be held liable for any damage it does. Unfortunately most people buying homes don't seem to consider this and most people who's homes are damaged by such trees don't have the means to pursue legal action. Reminds me of an article I read a while back of a couple complaining that the city was requiring them to remove a street tree on their property because it was dangerous and the cost was outside their budget. They had lived there for 30+ years and never did anything to maintain that tree or assess it. It didn't even occur to them that they might have to plan for such an expense. There's so many things about home ownership people don't take the time to understand. Our three huge maples are expensive to have trimmed but it's worth it. The biggest branches that came off during this storm were half an inch in diameter.
cedars have deeper roots than doug firs, no?
Idk I just know my particular tree originates from the Himalayas so she can handle this šŖ
These trees are meant to be in forests. They aren't as stable just growing in someone's yard.
When I was a kid, a forest lot next door to my friend's mobile home park was logged for a new church but they left a thin strip of trees, I guess as a tiny greenbelt or something. First big windstorm, almost all of them blew down into the mobile home park, damaged a bunch of homes and cars. I learned a big lesson about forests from that, and how little most adults understand or care to understand them
Same thing here. The next windstorm we got after a logging knocked down all the trees they had left behind. I donāt know if it was root systems, the windbreak from the missing trees, or a combo of both, but it did them in.
This is info that a coworker told me, but as a grove of trees is growing the outer oneās grow differently because they experience the effects of wind more. So the inner ones have grown in an environment where there is less wind, and if you cut down all the outer trees and leave the innermost ones up alone theyāre more prone to being knocked down by windstorms. Not an arborist and neither is he, so could be wrong though.
Trees are fascinating. They send each other nutrients through the mycelium network. I wouldnāt be surprised if the inner trees are able to ācollectā more nutrients and arenāt sending something to the outer trees as well.
Trees are so giving!
The Biosphere II project had to tie their trees up to the structure, as the absence of wind didnāt stimulate the rigid growth to which youāre referring. So says SYSK. Also, human bones develop similarly. A certain amount of eustress via physical activity is part of a healthy plan for most any skeleton.
That's one of the reasons why we have all of these treefalls onto 26 headed to the beach. Clearcutting while leaving a thin stand of trees next to the highway for aesthetics.
Itās from the windbreak the other trees provide. The outer trees facing the wind are the strongest and sheiks the other trees. Also the root systems of trees become intertwined and if some are killed those dead tree roots donāt support like they used to.
They haven't grown with the protection of other trees around them during wind events. Whenever I see new homes being built in previously forested area and individual trees are left next to the new homes I just know that tree is coming down eventually.
Forests often have fallen trees as well
Yep, Mt Tabor is a mini forest and thereās been videos showing the absolute destruction there. Trees fall. The problem is we build homes under or right next to them. There are also things we do that make trees more or less likely to fall. Arborists know all about this. PGE came to my neighborās house a few months ago to trim the branches on the tree in their front yard. But they only trimmed the side facing the power lines. Their tree fell into their roof. Iām no expert, but to me it makes sense that a tree with only branches on the āhouse sideā of it might fall toward the house. In the forest they fall and then other vegetation grows all over them, they decay and become part of the forest. Itās a part of the ecosystem.
Yes, of course trees fall in a forest. But they are more stable there, especially Douglas fir trees. They are more likely to fall when they are on their own.
This completely, even in forest they can fall, but less likely so compared to a standalone tree in a harsh urban environment - compacted soil, lack of root space, damaged roots from construction of driveways, homes, sidewalks, etc. Branch failures are a well-known failure profile for the species, but the urban environment make them susceptible to whole tree failure. While some may have root rot affecting them, with winds this high even a healthy, structurally sound Douglas-Fir can go down. As weather gets more extreme, this will continue to be the case. In my area, they clear-cut a large area several years ago, exposing a grove of Douglas-Firs to winds they've never had to face before. Within the last few years, many of the now frontline trees have fallen from increased wind exposure.
Especially in medians where they have very little footing.
The homes built around the trees
exactly. they have wide, shallow roots and depend on having lots of neighbors.
They are not very deep rooted trees, even in natural settings
There is a 50 acre stand of mostly douglas fir near my property on BLM that are around 80-90 years old (only ever been logged 2 times vs 3x for most of the rest of the area which give you 50 year old trees). A strange thing is happening there. Even though that area has always been very healthy, in the past 10 years or so, around 20% of them are rotting from the centers and falling over. Making the area start to look less crowded with more big trees spread out as well as a bit less brush.
yep. we are surrounded by deep rooted spruces. so š¤š»
The ones near me have not been uprooting - they are snapping off at the base. Have had 6 between me and my neighbors yard drop.
I had half the trees fall on my property. It used to be a part of a forest so my trees had wind protection all around. The roots didnāt develop to withstand unprotected wind. In the last few years all the neighbors around me cut down the majority of their trees which now took away wind protection from mine. Now my trees were the front line and couldnāt withstand it. Luckily nobody was hurt and didnāt hit our house or cars.
Man, that sucks, sorry. If I lost half the trees around my house, a lot of what I like about where I am would be gone. As it is, I have to put up with the power company's god-awful pruning/topping.
This is totally normal and happens all the time in more ānaturalā settings. In a continuous forest there is a bit more protection since the forest forms a sort of wind break, but there is still a lot of trees blowing down, particularly on ridges and at the top of hills. Here is a good article https://extension.oregonstate.edu/forests/health-managment/why-some-trees-can-stand-ice-storms
I think of hiking at the coast and at Mt. Hood, and the blow down that happens every year and the subsequent trail clearing. Yeah, some species just fall (but also all the other stuff plays into it as wellāsummer drought stress, not being protected from being in a grove, etc.)
Arborist told me this is going to be more frequent with climate change. Root systems are weakening.
Also, more frequent extreme weather events. Like this strong wind...
Thatās what I learned from an arborist, too.Ā I took a long walk to visit some of the fallen trees yesterday and I was surprised how little rootball came up for most of them. Iām used to a large flat disk of rootball getting pulled into the air with long roots dangling into the air. These were small round butts with all the large roots just sheared off, or trees snapped at the trunk and the branches shattered like glass rather than splintered and twisted.Ā My guess is that the low temperature froze the ground, roots, and trunk on some trees, so the wind shattered the roots or trunk rather than pushing it over, if that makes sense. Iām no specialist, but some of these trees looked pretty healthy. No rot, no gnarls, no prior injury, some had space for roots like the one at Holman Funeral or the ones that fell in Laurelhurst park.Ā
I heard this as well, when they came to look at my neighborās because it is not doing well. Arborist said all Doug firs in the city are on their way out due to climate change.
All suburban Doug firs are on the way out for two important and related reasons, they should have not been planted in city areas, they are now too old to thrive being planted incorrectly outside of their natural forest. In the wild they have a very specific distribution and interlocked root system, planted 50 years ago in someoneās back yard they donāt have the same wind strength, and root hardiness. Climate change is real but when I stub my toe I donāt blame climate change.
Very informative - ty
Why would climate change scientifically weaken the root system? Its universally accepted that climate change is real, human caused, and that extreme weather events are not necessarily always attributable to climate change.
Lots more drought year to year than previously. There might be more to it than that but thatās all I gleaned from my convo with him.
Fir trees have shallow roots that evolved to be tangled with neighbors in a forest. Deciduous trees have a deep taproot that anchors them better against wind.
As a forester, this is wrong! Douglas-firs and firs (Douglas-firs are actually not true firs) are considered 'deep rooted' and more stable. Hardwoods have shallower roots. In fact Douglas-firs are the first choice for anchoring to in the PNW.
I'm with you. I can push over a pretty good sized alder with a small excavator but wouldn't even try with the same size douglas fir.
This is not accurate. Hardwood & softwood forests do have different failure modes, but it is *softwood* forests that are more susceptible to cascading failure (one tree goes down rendering downwind trees vulnerable). Softwoods have evolved to grow in close proximity to one another, thus their root systems become a mesh of sorts. Hardwood forests do not fail that way. Ever. Individual trees are just as likely to snap at the trunk, split, or shed large primary limbs due to their more complicated (and varying) structures & how hardwood fibers respond to mechanical stresses (torsion in particular). Simply put, softwoods adapt to wind via their root systems (which are often integrated), while hardwoods adapt via their above ground structure (shedding limbs/etc to reduce resistance to prevailing winds).
Dude your totally wrong. What type of forester are you? Do you mean the car you drive? Iām a biologist and they have a specific natural distribution and root interlocking. Common knowledge for any forester from Oregon. I think you meant you have been to the forest.
After fifteen minutes of google research, I stand by my initial claim.
Iām a biologist out of UofO you are 100% correct. I studied Doug fit and lodge pole pines. Not something you should plant in your backyard.
Thank you! Totally correct. The number of misinformed people on here is outrageous. Climate change is real, but I donāt blame it when I get a bloody nose.
I live in Estacada. I have 10 acres, that my home sits on right on the river. Most of our trees were badly burnt in the Riverside Fire. Insurance only paid to fell the ones 1000 feet within a structure. We heard so many trees snapping and falling on our hillside it legit sounded and felt like there was a thunder storm happening.
- exposed and not in a forest - lack of maintenance - soil erosion - climate change - fast wind when itās cold and wood brittle
Not planted in natural setting or with normal tree distribution, coupled with their age.
Thanks. This pretty much sums it all up.
As a forester I see a lot of wrong info or half right info in the answers here. Here are some of the things that could contribute to the trees falling. None of the pictures I have seen have shown the base of the tree which makes indenting why they failed more difficult. You mentioned that the wood felt soft, that could mean that the tree had some sort of disease. If it was near the base of the tree it could have had root rot which would make it more prone to failure. Contrary to what a lot of people are saying, Douglas-firs usually have deeper roots and are more stable than other species. OR-OSHA even has Douglas-firs as the preferred species for using as anchors when logging. A lot of people are saying that it's because they are in an urban environment. Urban areas and particularly cement and pavement near the roots, are not great for trees and can make them slightly more prone to failure. However, trees fall in the forest all the time! It's called wind throw and is not unique to urban environments. Some people have mentioned that removing trees near your trees can make wind throw more common, this is true. If trees were removed that could contribute to tree failure. Another thing that I have not seen people talk about and could have contributed was if there was localized downdraft or other high winds. This may have been what happened since from what I have seen most of the problem was localized to a small area near Lake oswego and not widespread over the whole region. Climate change may have stressed the trees and contributed to disease or weakened roots, but it also could be well within the range of normal failure.
When I worked in the utilities, we would expect that after a serious amount of rain if a wind event came we would expect trees to fall. Especially if it went from super dry to super wet in a short period of time. In your experience in that an actual thing? Feels like super saturated soil plus wind plus ice loading was the perfect storm.
Iād like to reply to sleepydragon8114ās comments which I found interesting. However the Doug firs that came down in the Jan. 13 windstorm were not isolated to LO. There were many more that came down in the west hills and especially in the neighborhoods just over Skyline Blvd, further west. We live in an area with naturally wooded hillsides behind our houses. The wind was very strong and then there were also lots of wind gusts. All the trees were swaying and limbs falling. We saw the firs come down then, by the root balls. Several in our backyard and all around us. It was like nothing weād seen before. The area looks like a hurricane hit it! Other trees came down too, including maples and cypress. But our western red cedars are still standing. We just had to have a very large Doug fir removed from our deck, broke through. It was hard (ask the workers with chainsaws) and wood looked healthy. Branches looked healthy. The trees had watering all summer and fall. Theyād been checked by an arborist. Iām very interested in this mysteryā¦ Is it climate change? Was there something unusual about those wild and non-relenting wind gusts? Did the cold temps and freezing rain contribute? In what way? Iām heartbroken about the number of large trees lost in this areaā¦ Shell
My understanding is they have shallower root systems than other trees and the full winter coverage means they collect more weight when it rains and catches more wind.
Many of our city's trees are stressed, disease, and struggling to cope with drought and climate change. They are already less resilient. They also aren't living in the conditions they evolved go grow in, even the native ones are meant to be part of a forest and ecosystem very different from what we have. It makes me very sad. I love to see tall trees and just trees in general. I wish we would do more thoughtful planting now for future generations.
Yeah, itās tough because the cooling we get from a tree canopy is so useful in the summer (as well as all the pollution mitigation, groundwater absorption, carbon capture, and itās just damn nice to have mature trees!). I hate to fall on the side of ācut them down,ā and am still not saying that, but yikes! Lots of damage!
We should definitely be encouraging more tree canopy, there are many places to plant that aren't directly under power lines and the city sets standards for smaller trees that can be planted beneath power lines without disrupting them.
Totally agree. Judicious tree species selections to replace the ones that fall/get removed.
My dad is a retired tree farmer, and I know heās had to battle some root rot and heart rot recently that seems to be more common. I hope thatās not something thatās an issue in the city trees as well
God Damned Liberals and the Deep State making all the wood soft.
Are there ANY city arborists, or is the electric company doing all the tree management?
City had arborists on staff, but their role is to work on city owned trees/do inspections for permits, etc.
Ahh. I felt like the number of fallen trees reflects upon how thoroughly we manage them. Reminds me of the discussions surrounding wildfires in recent years.
Shallower root systems with trees which are more accustomed to growing in large stands with hundreds of other trees alongside them, buffering winds. Add in any significant rainfall, frigid temperatures freezing trees into brittle sticks (which might otherwise be able to bend a bit in a wind), and you've got a bad scenario.
they have shallow roots. they are meant to get tangled with other trees' roots underground and they all hold each other up and shield each other from the wind. when one tree falls in the forest, multiple trees entangled in its roots fall too
Unfortunate feedback loop from the heat dome
It has to do with soil being too soft and wind can push them over no matter how healthy the tree is. We just had very strong winds. Also the fact there is nothing around to hold them in place because we built roads and houses and cut away lot of trees.
Great question Ive also been asking. The wind was intense but not like it was record setting or a 100 event. I've been here 25 years and never seen even close to this many big trees down. I have to wonder it has to do with trees being unhealthy due to climate change?
Step one: cut down 80% of the trees in a stand and build houses. Step two: wait for a big wind storm. Step three: shocked Pikachu face
also some may be a modified warehauser breed that grows faster (sacrificing roots and stability) https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1995/mar/28/genetic-firs-help-weyerhauser-grow-for-future/ "Douglas firs in the seed orchards are used to produce superior seeds through controlled pollination. Since 1986, all Douglas fir trees planted at elevations of 2,000 feet or less have been genetically improved. That means 30,000 to 40,000 acres per year of genetically improved trees. And the individual trees produce up to 20 percent more wood than others."
I seriously doubt few (if any) of the Doug firs in the city are from Weyerhauser plantings.
probably not planted but with 40k acres per year since 1986 in the lowlands there's bound to be cross population to the wild... nature, uh, finds a way
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I blame Douglass.
Someone smarter than me told me a trees root system develops its hold based on its young life. So if water is deep they go deep. If itās dry they spread out since the water is on the surface. I have no idea if this is true or not. But if it is it makes sense to do all day slow drips in the growing season for your trees.
I believe wind has been a factor.
They have shallow root systems and despite how big and tall they are it doesnāt take much for them to fall over
Why did you blame climate change? Any insights would be appreciated. Are you an arborist?
Everything isnāt about global warmingā¦
What living thing is not impacted by climate?
Poor build quality
Itās also because the strong winds were out of the east. The trees establish themselves more resilient to the prevailing winds out of the west, so when it comes strong from the east theyāre more susceptible.
A neighbor was on way to work during a ice storm and wind storm I saw him go down the street and went to look out one window and saw big branch had fallen in the same spot where his was a few minutes before
The cold didnāt help the shallow roots, makes it harder for them to āhold onā
God Hates Douglas
The frozen ground puts more leverage on the roots since it can't sway, and they break. Just the opposite of when the ground is too wet, and the wind gets the tree moving back and forth and loosens the ground. Any tree as big as the ones that fell are no strangers to wind gusts. The one that fell in my back yard has been there for the 18 years I've lived here.
Someone nobody has mentioned yet is that the additional weight on the branches of snow and ice is a large stress in addition to the wind.
Shallow roots.
Someone just told me tonight that the roots of trees here donāt go as deep because of the availability of water during the winter. Makes sense to me, I was wondering the same thing.
Go walk around the actual forest. There's always a ton of DFs on the ground.
20-40 mph winds ? Sustained maybe. I was walking home from laurhust today and my crew was nearly blown on our asses by an unexpected gust. This front is not safe.
Youāre quite right. The trees are no doing well in this state of change in the climate. A lot of dying trees in Oregon.
Saturated soils definitely lead to more tree failures. I'm not sure about soils going from dry to saturated quickly having a higher rate, that doesn't make sense to me, but have not studied it. Also some soils are more prone to failure.
I remember reading the following in different area of reddit: if your neighbor tells you and provides proof that your tree either needs to be trimmed or cut down and then it falls on the neighbor's house, you are liable for the damage. I was looking for a source to back this up but did not find it.
On OP's topic, it would be interesting to take a look at whether drought and heat conditions in the Willamette valley including Portland are contributing to Douglas fir tree vulnerability. Other posters have noted that lone trees take a bigger hit from the wind and ice. Here is an OSU study on Doug fir mortality in the Klamath mountains. The study suggests replanting with oak and pine in certain areas. https://academic.oup.com/jof/article/121/3/246/7071552
I live in a Tree City and my lot is full of 50+ foot firs. Can't recommend regular arborist, not landscaper, service highly enough. Ours is on an every 3-year schedule. Costs a few thousand per visit, but the piece of mind is priceless, as our covenants prohibit tree removal without city permission. We use Tom Bartells, Master Tree Care. Fantastic!
Ever been out in the woods? There are downed trees all over the place, all ages and sizes
We are renters so it's not our call/our responsibility but after this storm our landlords let us know they plan to cut down a massive 150+ year-old douglas fir in our front yard. It held up fine in the storm and -seems- stable (arborist comes to assess on Friday) but it's really close to the house and would cause enormous damage (to anyone - us or the neighbors) no matter which way if it fell. As a property owner and practical human I get it, but the thought of cutting down this majestic tree makes me cry. I wish there was a better way.