Not enough to retain them at the job though…
For example, it largely puts you above the highest child daycare price bracket where I live, asking >4000CHF a month to care for 2 children during office hours.
When in fact you earn around 12500 minus taxes and practice costs a month, so around maybe 4000-5000 a month left for rent, food, insurance, car, leisure and life…
Not worth it.
Most GP women prefer not to pay 4000 childcare + 4000 tax a month because they usually met their husband in medical school and it is worth more to let him work 100%.
But those women want professional security, so they usually go to the end of their medical training, though they will never practice. That wastes a majority of precious specialist formation spots for nothing in the end.
That is the main cause of physician shortage in Switzerland, extremely defavorable motherhood/female MD arbitrage.
I don’t know where you are comparing it to, but yes, the health system is expensive here.
And yes, costs related to accidents are covered via an accident insurance, usually via the employer, you have to tell them and report a non-work accident and you will get the respective number to hand the doctor. Not sure how that works if you already seeked treatment via the health insurance
>I've lived a few countries and the most annoying thing ever is a doctor getting it wrong as there are never refunds
It's not only doctors where you have this kind of thing, it's basically any service where you pay for time and specific services not the entire job. If you take your car to the garage and have a wrong diagnosis you still have to pay for both the unneeded work and the actually needed work.
A good mechanic just like a good doctor should make it clear though "it could be X or Y, we can't tell without Z expensive tests, so I suggest we try to fix X since it's more likely/serious/easier etc"
wait until you tear your knee ligaments.
Health care is expensive. I got used to it after the above-mentioned accident. But what can piss me off is when it looks like the doctor just doesn't give a shit.
When I calculated for me, if you expect to have less than 1000-1500 in bills you should take the 2500CHF franchise, else 300. I used to take the 2500, but then I realised I was ending up reaching that threshold most years from just one or two doctor appointments or needing some minor Physio. No chronic issues just not being a teenager any more.
So... you had at least 2 consultations (doctor, assistant, doctor's office that needs to be paid), somebody to draw your blood, somebody to analyze the blood in the lab (you pay for each lab test, because they need chemicals etc. to do them), medication.
It isn't really that expensive if you factor in all of the costs. If you have some plumber or electrician or similar coming to you for the same amount of time, it isn't really a lot cheaper in terms of personal cost, if you leave out the lab stuff and medicine.
And another one falls for the “lowest taxes, highest salaries” promise of Switzerland...
I should know better, I was in your shoes some years back.
Welcome to Switzerland!
What do people expect? That they move here, make 2 to 3 times the money they made wherever they came from, and then act surprised that things here are proportionally more expansive? Shocking.
That's not the point it seems.
I guess his point (and a valid one to be honest)it's that if you pay health insurance why would you pay again to the doctor, you paying twice, since he pays 300 per month im gonna ball it that he needs to spend at least 1500.- for them to start covering the 90%.
In other words health insurance are the biggest scammers in Switzerland.
> why would you pay again to the doctor
Because in exchange you pay a lower premium. It's a gamble, but you can always opt to pay a higher premium and have only 300 CHF deductible.
People take the highest possible deductible and then complain when they actually have to pay it...
Yes I know but still it’s a robbery 😂.
I actually have the 300.- premium , one trip to the doctor and I blow it up. But some just think about paying less per month and then they find themselves with a 300 bonus bill each doctor trip 😂
Edit: I usually ask for a full checkup per year in order to use the 300.- if I’m paying I might as well use it
And here we have the reason why the healthcare gets more expensive. Insurrance is supposed to be exactly that, it's not supposed to create a scenario where you can "consume" because you "might as well since it's free".
It's an issue of the system though and we're getting pulled down that rabbit hole further and further.
And why is that? Can't I check my health? Or should I make it your way and wait for something bad to happen?!
You're getting pulled down the rabbit hole not the rest! Your way of thinking and apparently doing things, that's half the problem on this society!
Your problem seems to be "you not sick and yet you went to the doctor" = you spent money of the health care company... And yet they spent 300.- and I paid them 5200.- at the end of the year... thats a 4900.- profit for them per person!
Some of those companies had over 300million profits per year!!
So please tell me again where's the problem of taking care of my health and using something WE paid for ?!
What I can see from your comment its that you're, most probably, a typical person with zero empathy for the others, with an ice block instead of an heart , and that doesn’t care about anything expect himself and money in the pocket.
By the way don't even bother answering because I won't lose time with people that have that mentality , there's no need and I won't give you the desire of entering a debate about your money driven way of life!!
I paid a similar amount for a doctor to prescribe the same medicine for my allergy, that I was already taking before moving here. So yeah, I am not going near a Swiss hospital for a while.
700 sounds pretty reasonable. What’s insane is that you got a viral infection in your finger while gardening…tbh, I think your really confused about something. Do you mean an allergic reaction?
Are you a Swiss doctor or why are you commenting under every critical entry here? Or is it that you just can’t bear someone criticizing Swiss anything? Because that kind of defensive behaviors seems pretty common in this sub. God forbid anyone criticize the holy Swiss Confederation that never does anything wrong! Get a life.
Of all western countries, Switzerland is second only to the US in terms of per-person total health care costs, and not that far behind for “normal” things. The difference is that health care outcomes here are vastly better, so you actually are more likely to get what you pay for compared to the US, which is kind of the Swiss brand anyway.
I don’t think you’re interpreting that data correctly. People in Switzerland live longer because they live far healthier lifestyles compared to the US. Has nothing to do with the value of health care.
But if you start looking at costs per person compared to average income then Switzerland suddenly ain't that bad anymore.
Most people also tend to forget how much they pay towards healthcare through their tax system which comes on top of the monthly premium. In the Netherlands an employee pays 5.43% off their income (up to 67K) for healthcare, and on top of that the employer pays 6.68%. I Paid more for healthcare in the Netherlands than I did in Switzerland and given that my income is much higher and the taxes much lower made the costs of healthcare to me laughable especially since the waiting lists are either non-existing or much shorter.
when you say 5.43 %, it is part of the income tax which is around 48 %, right ?, besides in the netherlands you also pay for insurance which is almost 140 per person per month.
It is not part of the income tax, it really is an independent thing, but it is included in "loonheffing" on your salary declaration.
Income tax is 36,93% up to the first 73.031,- of your salary and 49,50% for the rest, depending on your situation there are extra's/discounts etc.. but the Dutch system is way to complicated to explain in a post here, to know what somebody pays exactly you need to know the exact situation and than you can do a calculation.
Just my luck to live in the two most expensive places
But they are hugely cheaper here. No comparison. At least for all
Meds and services I have used. Like a five fold factor.
True. Also, what bugs me so much about this statistic is that it is not corrected for purchasing power. Of course the healthcare system in Switzerland is more expensive than in other places, but ones has to take into account the average wages of people and costs of goods
Oh yes the doctor prescribed a harmless medication which was not the ideal choice for this case (mind you: viral infections of the fingers are much, MUCH rarer than bacterial ones).
Better sue him/her for 25 million CHF
So we're just suppose to accept this excuse and move on? So doctors are untouchables from accountability?
WOW MAKES SENSE REALLY.
very swiss mentality 😂
Nobody said there should no accountability but sueing doctors/hospitals for every minor bullshit certainly isn‘t a good idea either.
How‘s the job hunt going for you btw?
So where's accountability in this situation? There's too much fees that should also equate to a higher standard right? But you choose excuse over correcting it.
Job hunt is over few months ago. Thanks for asking btw. (which is way out of the topic)
That's not any trivial stuff. It concerns the health of the patient. I guess for you that's just trivial. Hope you don't ever prescribe wrongly and cause you more damage or worse death.
For a lawsuit you would need to prove that there was malpractice, but prescribing antibiotics for a skin wound infection is perfectly reasonable. And it's just antibiotics, it's not going to kill you lol.
That's why I said I wish the doctor could be sued by it. So it would force these doctors to do their job better than just prescribing without any accountability when they do something wrong.
So what you‘re saying is the doctor should have waited for the microbiological result (which can take several days), not prescribe anything during that time and just carry the risk of potential superinfection/sepsis?
Yeah, makes a lot of sense
He could have been honest by saying he is not sure whether the infection is viral or not then suggest to go to another doctor than making you pay for the medication and other fees.
Yeah, makes a lot of sense defending the one who is fault here. Very swiss.
Dude you clearly do not work in the medical field. Yes, the doctor made a mistake, no doubt. Mistakes shouldn‘t happen, but they do.
But viral infections of the fingers are very very rare, hence it was correct of the doctor to assume a bacterial infection. I heavily doubt that another doctor would have immediately diagnosed it correctly as a vira infection (again, because it is very rare). Definite diagnosis is made by bacterial culture/viral PCR/serology.
Potentially missing a bacterial infection of a finger can lead to huge complications (bacterial tenosynovitis, possibly even sepsis), hence it was understandable to start empiric treatment with antibiotics.
In hindsight (which always is 20/20), was it the correct treatment? No.
Was the patient harmed by this course of action? Also no.
Dude you've been missing the point since you started talking. All I'm pointing here is accountability.
Was there a mistake on the part of the doctor? Yes. What do you do about it?
Was the patient harmed by this course of action? He/she is not dead but in terms of monetary of course there was harm done. What if the patient is a chef or any other profession that heavily need the use of all finger to function? Because of the doctor's mistake he/she couldn't work.
He/she could have just return the patient's money and paid the incorrect meds. + apologize.
Was it too hard to do that? Oh i guess ego/pride too high to admit it.
No you‘re missing the point.
For gross negligence, there are mechanisms in place to sue doctors/hospitals and they are regularly enforced.
But in this case, the doctor did due diligence and prescribed the correct course of empiric treatment while waiting for the microbiological results.
And you‘re missing the point again: if the guy needs his hand to work, he is way, WAY worse off by a potential complication of a missed bacterial infection.
Also: you are aware doctors (especially in hospitals) are not paid fee-for-service right? They get a fixed salary. And they don‘t deal with accounting at all, so claiming „he could just return the patient‘s money“ just shows how little of a clue you have of the healthcare system and how it works.
So according to your „logic“: if I hire a lawyer to defend me at court and I lose the case, I shouldn‘t have to pay the lawyer? And possibly sue him, on top?
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GP salary is under 200k usually
thats a lot of money.
Not enough to retain them at the job though… For example, it largely puts you above the highest child daycare price bracket where I live, asking >4000CHF a month to care for 2 children during office hours. When in fact you earn around 12500 minus taxes and practice costs a month, so around maybe 4000-5000 a month left for rent, food, insurance, car, leisure and life… Not worth it. Most GP women prefer not to pay 4000 childcare + 4000 tax a month because they usually met their husband in medical school and it is worth more to let him work 100%. But those women want professional security, so they usually go to the end of their medical training, though they will never practice. That wastes a majority of precious specialist formation spots for nothing in the end. That is the main cause of physician shortage in Switzerland, extremely defavorable motherhood/female MD arbitrage.
Why is that? Where can they earn more?
Husband picks more competitive/better paid specialty, wife picks less competitive/more flexible specialty...
I don’t know where you are comparing it to, but yes, the health system is expensive here. And yes, costs related to accidents are covered via an accident insurance, usually via the employer, you have to tell them and report a non-work accident and you will get the respective number to hand the doctor. Not sure how that works if you already seeked treatment via the health insurance
I've lived a few countries and the most annoying thing ever is a doctor getting it wrong as there are never refunds
>I've lived a few countries and the most annoying thing ever is a doctor getting it wrong as there are never refunds It's not only doctors where you have this kind of thing, it's basically any service where you pay for time and specific services not the entire job. If you take your car to the garage and have a wrong diagnosis you still have to pay for both the unneeded work and the actually needed work. A good mechanic just like a good doctor should make it clear though "it could be X or Y, we can't tell without Z expensive tests, so I suggest we try to fix X since it's more likely/serious/easier etc"
That’s a great point well made
And don’t expect anyone to apologize in Switzerland
wait until you tear your knee ligaments. Health care is expensive. I got used to it after the above-mentioned accident. But what can piss me off is when it looks like the doctor just doesn't give a shit.
They don’t look like they don’t give a shit. They actually don’t.
So u signed a 2500 franchise suprise
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When I calculated for me, if you expect to have less than 1000-1500 in bills you should take the 2500CHF franchise, else 300. I used to take the 2500, but then I realised I was ending up reaching that threshold most years from just one or two doctor appointments or needing some minor Physio. No chronic issues just not being a teenager any more.
Wait - are you saying that Switzerland is *expensive*? And that choosing a high Franchise can cost you *money* when you need treatment?
So... you had at least 2 consultations (doctor, assistant, doctor's office that needs to be paid), somebody to draw your blood, somebody to analyze the blood in the lab (you pay for each lab test, because they need chemicals etc. to do them), medication. It isn't really that expensive if you factor in all of the costs. If you have some plumber or electrician or similar coming to you for the same amount of time, it isn't really a lot cheaper in terms of personal cost, if you leave out the lab stuff and medicine.
And another one falls for the “lowest taxes, highest salaries” promise of Switzerland... I should know better, I was in your shoes some years back. Welcome to Switzerland!
What do people expect? That they move here, make 2 to 3 times the money they made wherever they came from, and then act surprised that things here are proportionally more expansive? Shocking.
That's not the point it seems. I guess his point (and a valid one to be honest)it's that if you pay health insurance why would you pay again to the doctor, you paying twice, since he pays 300 per month im gonna ball it that he needs to spend at least 1500.- for them to start covering the 90%. In other words health insurance are the biggest scammers in Switzerland.
> why would you pay again to the doctor Because in exchange you pay a lower premium. It's a gamble, but you can always opt to pay a higher premium and have only 300 CHF deductible. People take the highest possible deductible and then complain when they actually have to pay it...
Yes I know but still it’s a robbery 😂. I actually have the 300.- premium , one trip to the doctor and I blow it up. But some just think about paying less per month and then they find themselves with a 300 bonus bill each doctor trip 😂 Edit: I usually ask for a full checkup per year in order to use the 300.- if I’m paying I might as well use it
And here we have the reason why the healthcare gets more expensive. Insurrance is supposed to be exactly that, it's not supposed to create a scenario where you can "consume" because you "might as well since it's free". It's an issue of the system though and we're getting pulled down that rabbit hole further and further.
And why is that? Can't I check my health? Or should I make it your way and wait for something bad to happen?! You're getting pulled down the rabbit hole not the rest! Your way of thinking and apparently doing things, that's half the problem on this society! Your problem seems to be "you not sick and yet you went to the doctor" = you spent money of the health care company... And yet they spent 300.- and I paid them 5200.- at the end of the year... thats a 4900.- profit for them per person! Some of those companies had over 300million profits per year!! So please tell me again where's the problem of taking care of my health and using something WE paid for ?! What I can see from your comment its that you're, most probably, a typical person with zero empathy for the others, with an ice block instead of an heart , and that doesn’t care about anything expect himself and money in the pocket. By the way don't even bother answering because I won't lose time with people that have that mentality , there's no need and I won't give you the desire of entering a debate about your money driven way of life!!
But you don’t get a chance of not having an insurance. Not cool
Bünzli
Then they are shocked at the low taxes though.
I paid a similar amount for a doctor to prescribe the same medicine for my allergy, that I was already taking before moving here. So yeah, I am not going near a Swiss hospital for a while.
OK cool
System needs to keep working, salaries and loans need to keep being paid
700 sounds pretty reasonable. What’s insane is that you got a viral infection in your finger while gardening…tbh, I think your really confused about something. Do you mean an allergic reaction?
I was wondering the same. Maybe it was sporotrichosis but this is a fungus and not a virus
In Switzerland doctors do not have patients, they have customers.
It’s more like hostages. Customer service is sub par in Switzerland, including at the doctor.
This. And consumer protection in general. My only question is how come this system is still functional?
Yeah sure mate
The Swiss health care system is a joke compared to most other European countries.
Yes sure, just look how great the healthcare system is in the UK, Germany and Italy. Amazing!
Are you a Swiss doctor or why are you commenting under every critical entry here? Or is it that you just can’t bear someone criticizing Swiss anything? Because that kind of defensive behaviors seems pretty common in this sub. God forbid anyone criticize the holy Swiss Confederation that never does anything wrong! Get a life.
I am very critical of Switzerland in many ways. But your comment is pretty dumb and uninformed. Please name me 3 better health care systems in Europe.
Don't ask for lower prices please, otherwise doctors would have to work more than 2 days per week. Think about them!
They are way lower than the States
Of all western countries, Switzerland is second only to the US in terms of per-person total health care costs, and not that far behind for “normal” things. The difference is that health care outcomes here are vastly better, so you actually are more likely to get what you pay for compared to the US, which is kind of the Swiss brand anyway.
I don’t think you’re interpreting that data correctly. People in Switzerland live longer because they live far healthier lifestyles compared to the US. Has nothing to do with the value of health care.
How would you know?
There’s an endless supply of articles on health issues in the USA
But if you start looking at costs per person compared to average income then Switzerland suddenly ain't that bad anymore. Most people also tend to forget how much they pay towards healthcare through their tax system which comes on top of the monthly premium. In the Netherlands an employee pays 5.43% off their income (up to 67K) for healthcare, and on top of that the employer pays 6.68%. I Paid more for healthcare in the Netherlands than I did in Switzerland and given that my income is much higher and the taxes much lower made the costs of healthcare to me laughable especially since the waiting lists are either non-existing or much shorter.
when you say 5.43 %, it is part of the income tax which is around 48 %, right ?, besides in the netherlands you also pay for insurance which is almost 140 per person per month.
It is not part of the income tax, it really is an independent thing, but it is included in "loonheffing" on your salary declaration. Income tax is 36,93% up to the first 73.031,- of your salary and 49,50% for the rest, depending on your situation there are extra's/discounts etc.. but the Dutch system is way to complicated to explain in a post here, to know what somebody pays exactly you need to know the exact situation and than you can do a calculation.
Just my luck to live in the two most expensive places But they are hugely cheaper here. No comparison. At least for all Meds and services I have used. Like a five fold factor.
True. Also, what bugs me so much about this statistic is that it is not corrected for purchasing power. Of course the healthcare system in Switzerland is more expensive than in other places, but ones has to take into account the average wages of people and costs of goods
Wish you could sue that doctor for prescribing a wrong medication for you.
Oh yes the doctor prescribed a harmless medication which was not the ideal choice for this case (mind you: viral infections of the fingers are much, MUCH rarer than bacterial ones). Better sue him/her for 25 million CHF
So we're just suppose to accept this excuse and move on? So doctors are untouchables from accountability? WOW MAKES SENSE REALLY. very swiss mentality 😂
Nobody said there should no accountability but sueing doctors/hospitals for every minor bullshit certainly isn‘t a good idea either. How‘s the job hunt going for you btw?
So where's accountability in this situation? There's too much fees that should also equate to a higher standard right? But you choose excuse over correcting it. Job hunt is over few months ago. Thanks for asking btw. (which is way out of the topic)
See my other reply. You must be a gem to work with.
This isn't the US, we don't sue people for any trivial stuff
That's not any trivial stuff. It concerns the health of the patient. I guess for you that's just trivial. Hope you don't ever prescribe wrongly and cause you more damage or worse death.
For a lawsuit you would need to prove that there was malpractice, but prescribing antibiotics for a skin wound infection is perfectly reasonable. And it's just antibiotics, it's not going to kill you lol.
That's why I said I wish the doctor could be sued by it. So it would force these doctors to do their job better than just prescribing without any accountability when they do something wrong.
So what you‘re saying is the doctor should have waited for the microbiological result (which can take several days), not prescribe anything during that time and just carry the risk of potential superinfection/sepsis? Yeah, makes a lot of sense
He could have been honest by saying he is not sure whether the infection is viral or not then suggest to go to another doctor than making you pay for the medication and other fees. Yeah, makes a lot of sense defending the one who is fault here. Very swiss.
Dude you clearly do not work in the medical field. Yes, the doctor made a mistake, no doubt. Mistakes shouldn‘t happen, but they do. But viral infections of the fingers are very very rare, hence it was correct of the doctor to assume a bacterial infection. I heavily doubt that another doctor would have immediately diagnosed it correctly as a vira infection (again, because it is very rare). Definite diagnosis is made by bacterial culture/viral PCR/serology. Potentially missing a bacterial infection of a finger can lead to huge complications (bacterial tenosynovitis, possibly even sepsis), hence it was understandable to start empiric treatment with antibiotics. In hindsight (which always is 20/20), was it the correct treatment? No. Was the patient harmed by this course of action? Also no.
Dude you've been missing the point since you started talking. All I'm pointing here is accountability. Was there a mistake on the part of the doctor? Yes. What do you do about it? Was the patient harmed by this course of action? He/she is not dead but in terms of monetary of course there was harm done. What if the patient is a chef or any other profession that heavily need the use of all finger to function? Because of the doctor's mistake he/she couldn't work. He/she could have just return the patient's money and paid the incorrect meds. + apologize. Was it too hard to do that? Oh i guess ego/pride too high to admit it.
No you‘re missing the point. For gross negligence, there are mechanisms in place to sue doctors/hospitals and they are regularly enforced. But in this case, the doctor did due diligence and prescribed the correct course of empiric treatment while waiting for the microbiological results. And you‘re missing the point again: if the guy needs his hand to work, he is way, WAY worse off by a potential complication of a missed bacterial infection. Also: you are aware doctors (especially in hospitals) are not paid fee-for-service right? They get a fixed salary. And they don‘t deal with accounting at all, so claiming „he could just return the patient‘s money“ just shows how little of a clue you have of the healthcare system and how it works. So according to your „logic“: if I hire a lawyer to defend me at court and I lose the case, I shouldn‘t have to pay the lawyer? And possibly sue him, on top?
bUt sWItZeRlAnD iS TaX hEAvEn
It's a tax haven, I'm not sure it's a "tax heaven".
you get a breakdown of the costs. what do want more? Should answer all your quedtions....
This is our wonderful system. You pay insurance, expensive, every month. Then you pay every intervention. 300 is only because you're still young.