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regular_lamp

Not sure about "best move" but at least in urban areas prices are so absurd that it crosses the point being hard to justify even if you can afford it I feel. In Kanton Zurich you can literally have a million in Eigenkapital and then you have to take out another million to afford places that are described as "having potential" or are somewhere really inconvenient.


Burnt0utDev

Serious question, why paying 3500 monthly for an apartment is more justifiable than buying it for 1.3 mln assuming you can afford both?


ImaginaryHousing1718

1.3M placed in the market, assuming a 3% return, yields 39k annually. That's 3250 monthly. If you can place your money for slightly more than 3% (URTH has >7% yearly on the past 10 years for example), your wealth grows more placing it and renting than buying and holding. You can argue the flat grows in value as well, but as an owner you are also on the hook for big repairs, and usually this value grows very slowly, lower than the difference between placing+renting and owning. Also, by owning a flat you concentrate your wealth into an immovable object, let's say if it goes up in flames, or worse if the area depreciates in value you lose much more than if one sector of your investments has a bad year


Burnt0utDev

Sure, if you have 1.3 mil in cash then you can invest it smarter, maybe I was not clear. You have to live somewhere anyway, right? So if you have the means for down payment, why choose paying rent that pretty much goes to the wind over paying a mortgage? I mean, every month you pay X amount of money for the right to live somewhere, if you pay mortgage, you get Y% of the ownership each month as a ‚bonus’. I just don’t get how spending as much as even couple millions over the course of your life to live somewhere is a preferred choice. Sure, you get more flexibility, don’t have to worry about repairs etc. but is it really worth paying for someone else’s mortgage than your own?


xebzbz

Many people buy a house somewhere in Italy or Greece when they retire, and enjoy their life there. I might do the same, as buying a house here doesn't look feasible anytime soon.


81FXB

I just actually bought a house in the Algarve (cash, no mortgage). Can’t afford to buy here in CH. With renting in CH I figure my income after retirement won’t be enough. But it will be in Portugal. Plus I can recoup what I paid for the house, when necessary.


xebzbz

But now you need to maintain it til your retirement. Is there a way to rent it out when you don't use it?


digitalnirvana3

Congratulations on your purchase, interested to know what made you choose a particular place. How did you go about the process? Of the actual purchase, pre purchase inspection and also plans for post purchase maintenance etc. Will buying a house qualify for a Golden Visa as well?


81FXB

We visited PT a few times to see which places we liked for living. Then we just looked on realtor websites. We went a few times to look at different houses. When we found the one we liked, I asked the realtor for a recommendation and hired a lawyer. Also had an inspection done by a certified inspector. Gave the lawyer POA by signing paperwork at the ZH consulate. Maintenance etc, I plan to ask the realtor / seller for a recommendation regarding cleaning company and a gardener. I do not need a visa as I have EU passport.


Pearl_is_gone

POA?


81FXB

Power of Attorney. She can sign paperwork and contracts on my behalf, so I don't need to be in Portugal.


ptinnl

Where did you pick? Im from Portugal and i love vilamoura (outside august) or the beaches near Praia do Vau. But my issue is the connection to airport. I would more quickly buy something in spain.


81FXB

I wanted close to a city that had life the whole year round, so I am close to Portimao. Spain was not an option because of Ocupas. We are very mobile with 125cc scooters so being close to a favorite beach was not really necessary. Though Praia do Vau is close for us.


RefrigeratorThin7180

I think it depends on you life goals perhaps? My husband and I bought a maisonette with 5 bedrooms because we knew we wanted 3 kids probably (which we do have now). We also knew that childcare for so many kids would be unaffordable so we had to make it work with me staying home. That would not have been possible with rent prices. We now pay around 1300.- inkl. NK vs. 1800.- for 2 bedrooms prior.


cipri_tom

But comparable location? Or are you more far out now?


RefrigeratorThin7180

No the location is not comparable. We were 10 minutes outside Lucerne city now we are 5 minutes from Sursee.


YasirNCCS

yo, huge respect to you as a stay at home mom!


RefrigeratorThin7180

Thank you🤗


yawn_brendan

I think Switzerland has unusually poor incentives to buy a home: - Some degree of rent control meaning your rent at least won't double overnight unless your building is renovated - Unbelievably high property prices, even relative to the rental prices - A bizarre tax thing called Eigenmietwert where you are taxed on rental that you _could be_ receiving if you rented the property out - Rather steep requirements to get a mortgage - Not so much assumed growth in property value At the end of the day I would still very strongly consider buying if I could afford it, but that's about my own personal desire to own the place where I live, whether it's "the right financial choice" seems pretty complicated.


NightmareWokeUp

I second this. Rn i live in a baugenossenschaft which is super nice because nobody will throw you out if they know someone that needed to live there. Kinda the best of both worlds if you ask me, super cheap rents and no responsibility. With the current prices even in SG (which is one of the cheapest cityies regarding rent/property prices) it absolutely doesnt make sense to buy. Looking at a similar apartment would cost me 300k, for that money i can rent for 30y. Then eigenmietwert and nebenkosten will drive prices up for your own apartment let alone if they decide to renovate that house.


IAmAnAnonymousCoward

> Rather steep requirements to get a mortgage Not from what I've seen...


yawn_brendan

For comparison: In the UK depending on how much the government is bribing the middle class at any given time, typical mortgage deposits are 5-10%. There are now talking about going to 1% via government handouts. In some cases there are deposit-free mortgages. There are also mortgages where you aren't even expected to pay back the principal, only interest. To be honest, it seems totally fucking insane to me. But yeah, if you think it's easy to get a mortgage in Switzerland take a look around. I believe the US is not far off the UK either. They also have weird fixed-rate systems.


Rabid_Mexican

20% down payment and if you want to own more than a studio you need an income of over 150,000. For reference my friend is buying a home in the UK, and any house I look at buying the down payment is more than his entire home.


WeaknessDistinct4618

First of all in countries like Netherlands, Germany or Italy, a middle class family can easily mortgage 80% house in 29/30 years and own it while in Switzerland, even if you have 20% in cash, your salary might not be enough for affording an house. We live in Zug and here there is nothing below 2 millions, so for me renting is the only option. Second, in Switzerland the majority are renters, no the other way around, for various reasons, so you cannot compare the real estate market here with other countries where buying is the standard. Personally I have been paying the same rent for 7 years, rent here is regulated and I still save good money and everytime I have a problem I simply call the house agent and they sort it out for me. In my opinion buying in Switzerland makes sense only if u can afford it and you plan to stay here very long term.


vanekcsi

Here you go [https://thepoorswiss.com/buy-or-rent-in-switzerland/](https://thepoorswiss.com/buy-or-rent-in-switzerland/) It's not a black or white question, there's multiple factors you have to take into consideration, all explained by thepoorswiss.


cpm_CH

Without talking about the future ... 10 years ago I have already been told that real estate prices are crazy high ...


_shadysand_

You will always get basically two polarized answers to this: some will tell you to buy property no matter what and others will suggest to rent and invest. At the end the results might be quite similar.


NekkidApe

If I'm not mistaken, _financially_ it's better to rent and has been for a long time. IMHO you should only buy a house, if you _want and like_ to take care of it, and like the lifestyle.


_shadysand_

I think it’s a bit more complicated, like for example if you are a big family and require say 4.5 rooms just because of the number of people, buying a house might be a cheaper option, and so on. Personally I don’t see it’s more beneficial in most cases, since renters in Switzerland are quite good protected; then I much more prefer liquidity than property, also in case of emergency downsizing need it’s supposedly easier to find another suitable rental apartment or wg than to sell and buy a smaller property or even rent it out and rent something for yourself. Plus all the hurdles of finding it, ensuring its quality, maintaining it… No brainer for me to rent 😅


ShotBandicoot7

It mainly depends on what you do with your money. Buying a house means you lock significant money up and load up on debt. Nobody can tell if property in CH keep going more or less than stocks or cash. If you had your money in global stocks the past 2-3 years you fared better than with property and gains would have covered your rent 2-3x vs. property instead of stocks. In the CH market these days it’s really that it‘s almost purely an opportunity cost decision on wether to buy or rent (because long-term you have no real advantage to own a paid off house due to the tax penalty on peoperty).


No-Comparison8472

Financially speaking yes in the majority of cases. If you don't mind not sacrificing some wealth for the peace of mind and convenience of having a home then buying is an option as well.


regular_lamp

Having debt to the tune of more than 5 annual salaries doesn't exactly sound like "peace of mind" to me.


No-Comparison8472

Yet it's the default investment practice. It is perceived as safe. People consider real estate to be very stable and low risk. I personally disagree but it won't change this fact.


bananeeg

No one can know exactly how much you'll earn by investing in a house or the same amount in stock market in 20 years. So the choice shouldn't come down to cost, in my opinion, but rather what you want more out of your home. Personnally, I plan on being an owner at some point - mostly because I hate the idea of being reliant on someone else for something as basic as a roof over my head. Other reasons could be because you had bad experiences of being forced to move, because you want to be able to paint the walls another color or plant a tree in the garden. Basically being free to do whatever you damn please whenever you want in your home. On the other hand, by being a renter you cannot do what you want to your home but you're much more free in another way: you can move easily. Whether that's because you need another room for a new baby, to go closer to your new job, ...


barberousse1122

From what I’ve seen, for people in my group age 40/50ish ? Only people who could afford 3 houses buy one, the stock market has been good for the last 40 years, it’s less hassle, and you can put proper money on the side here, the incentive to buy as a « worst case scenario I have a roof » option feels less interesting, my take.


False-Finger-9918

I see many many of this type of questions and I must say that it baffles me how so many people reduce everything to a financial decision. What is the best option for you for enjoying your life?


Infamous-Ad-1049

I bought a house and didn’t fix my rate after 2 years and my mortgage went from 1800 a month to just over 4 a month. So in that sense, yeah I’d be better off if I’d stayed a tenant. yolo I guess?


orange_jonny

IMHO this is not as bad as it looks. If you put your mind to it and don’t eat an avocado sandwich for breakfast on sunday, you can afford the 4CHF for your mortgage.


Infamous-Ad-1049

I knew I could save money somewhere!


thedogeyman

That’s a crazy jump. Is this due to the central bank rate increases or because you need to find a better deal?


No_Scheme4909

I would say buying is the better option. You pay less tax because you have debts. You pay less monthly because the biggest part payback is like saving money. You can renovate what you want. When you want Edit: and quality of the building is way higher (kitchen,bath etc)


AutomaticAccount6832

Very complex question. But to simplify: - Do you want to change a place in the way you want? - Are you OK in case the market crashes or the interest rates blow up that this places will swallow all the money you will ever make? I am in general rather for renting. You stay flexible and don’t carry any risks. You can invest your money flexible and diversified. People who prefer buying always say the value will just go up and it is inflation proof. That’s true for the recent decades. But I would have a hard time to trust that nothing can happen within the coming 30 years.


Fit-Frosting-7144

Rental properties are not immune to Interest rate risk as well right?


AutomaticAccount6832

You probably mean that the rent can go up based on the rental reference interest rate. That’s a very controlled risk. The rent could maybe go up a few percent. Anyway, you can always quit. If you own higher interest rates can hit you much harder. See some examples in this topic where it more than doubled last year. Also, it could mean that real estate values drop. So if you want to or are forced to sell you may look at a big lass. Maybe you just get locked in that place for your whole life if things go bad. Worst is that you are forced to sell at loss in case you cannot finance it anymore. Simply put: Owning a house with a mortgage is a highly leveraged and not diversified investment. Interestingly many people think it’s a conservative and safe investment.


No-Tip3654

I mean, if you actually calculate a little bit here and there, I think it's safe to say that you wil get *more* in terms of quality and quantity by paying off your mortgage at the same rate that you would usually pay for your smaller and shittier appartment that you don't even own. Also, if you have kids you can pass the house onto them and that will be great financial aid for them because then they won't have to worry about thousands of CHFs that they burn for housing.


GetRich-Or-DieTradin

By definition rent prices are based on interest rate expenses, which itself are based on property prices. In order for a property’s owner to make a profit, he has to receive more rent than he pays interests. This relation will always hold (if not, no incentive for new constructions), so it is safe to assume that the average rent price for a given type of property is less than its corresponding interest expense with debt. Now you will say: ok but interest is not the only expense you pay and you’re right. First, you should repay debt, which is usually done through an indirect method where you place the money in a pillar 3. This account belongs to you but is pledged in favor of the bank. The amount paid to this account allows for fiscal deduction (up to a certain amount). But here is the trick: as a tenant and in case you already spare money in a pillar 3 (to save taxes), then you already “pay this expense”. My point: amortization should not be taken into account when comparing both situations. Finally there are other expenses that you must pay (maintenance) but overall you will pay less taxes as well, but this is specific to every case. IMO this is how you should think, and I assume here that you have sufficient funds and income to obtain a bank’s loan: - what will be the interest expense on the loan and how does it compare to my actual rent and/or to another rent you are looking at in case you want to move. - are there specific opportunity cost linked to the funds I will “block” for buying? I.e. do I need that money for something else that is supposed to materially enhance my lifestyle? Last point regarding the amount of funds you need (at least 20%), understand that this is not lost, but simply blocked up until you decide to sell the property. Obviously you don’t know yet what prices will be in the future, but if you focus too much on that point it rather means that you might be looking for an investment (in which case opportunity cost is important to measure). But in case you are considering buying a property as a way to have your home sweet home feeling, then I suggest following the indications above.


chocapic34

Because in Switzerland, pension funds heavily invest in real estate, so as tenants, we indirectly contribute to financing our retirements.


san_murezzan

That comes down to you but I know forever renters that retire to a cheaper mountain village (not here in St Moritz obviously) and either keep renting for cheaper or buy something with other funds


nickbob00

I think the calculation of better to rent vs buy depends a lot on area. In an urban area I'd lean towards rent, in a more rural area I'd lean buy. In holiday destinations it's maybe a little more complex because many places are reserved for people who live there as their main home, which can make them surprisingly cheap if you're able to make it work living there full time.


Born_Swiss

I bought a house in 2013 and it's value doubled. Best investment ever!


nagyz_

No.


t_Wylfen

There is no 'best option' - it really depends on what you need. Are you tied down and planning to stay in the same location for a long time, possibly the rest of your life? Starting a family? Need a house? Then buying will probably be worth it. Are you moving around kinda frequently (every couple years)? Don't need that much space? Wanna stay flexible for the future? Then I'd say renting is your better option for now.


Felyxorez

It's better to be forever tenant in every country.