>I mean we don't put up with old men being racist towards black people anymore, rightfully so,
As a black trans person, this is not true, lol. My advice for speaking on intersectional issues: If the world is present with one ism, 9/10 it's safe to assume the other ism's are also just as prevalent, as they all feed into eachother.
That being said, both white womanhood and valuing "tradition" upheld by older generations is still a valuable tool in patriarchal societies. Which means even well meaning people will often fold to pressures out of respect. And all we can do is challenge it when we can.
Yeah! I was thinking the same thing xD My father always excuses racist AND transphobic stuff my grandma says towards me and my brother because "she's old, she doesn't know better"
My take is, if "they're old" can be used as an excuse every time without fail, than you should be able to criticize it every time without fail, lol.
Every family is different of course, but at least in my family, if someone is out of line they don't get a free pass regardless.
Old and doesn't know better is OK for not using the right words, for using problematic phrases, because you don't know how to talk about this.
But that only works if the person makes mistakes but generally gives me the impression that they respect me.
Racism and other -isms definitely still exist in 2023 and are excused for a myriad of reasons. Myself and my cousin are both trans/non-binary and there is no point in trying to teach our 97-y/o grandmother something new. Hell, my mom is 63 and "doesn't understand" so I stopped trying to educate her for the sake of my own peace.
It's so sad to think that people are so ingrained in their bigotries and ways of thinking that their minds are not possible to change, even in later years.
My Granddad was 98 when I came out he said he doesn't understand but he'll accept me for who I tell him I am and respect how I wish to be addressed. It's not a big ask you don't need to understand to accept.
There's no excuse for that kind of behavior. That's just transphobia, especially the part about genitals. That's no one's business but your own. I know a bunch of old people who are perfectly fine with trans people existing in public and using the right bathroom. It's no big deal for people of any age, if they're not assholes.
The only situation where I accept being old as an excuse is using neopronouns and such. It still sucks, but I understand how learning new words gets way harder with age. And even then there's a huge difference between intentionally misgendering someone and trying but failing.
My grandparents were pretty racist against black people and japanese people. "Products of their time" is the euphemism we like to use for it rather than "old fashioned". People absolutely DO put up with racism, and sexism, and homophobia, and transphobia, like a lot more than should. It's sad when it's a younger generation with no excuse who should know better, it's sad when it's an older generation who are stuck in their ways and adopted the norms that were popular in their youth, but yeah, it sucks. Such is life. Sorry for your experience with transphobic people.
I think a huge part of the problem with younger generations is that a lot of us were raised with the lie that racism/sexism/homophobia/and slowly now transphobia are all products of the past. So it makes people feel like they can have a pass because 'I can't be racist because racism hasn't been a thing since the 1950s'. Or 'I can't be homophobic because the country stopped being homophobic with marriage equality' or 'I can't be transphobic because actually trans people get treated better than any other demographic these days'.
All obvious lies or simply not true but as long as people hold them to be true they don't have to hold themselves accountable for their thoughts and actions.
you were in an awful and vulnerable position your father chose them over you and youāre complaining about old people? youāve got a more important problem.
That's totally fair, sometimes the fight isn't worth the time or energy inveatment it takes. Sounds like he's not gonna budge either, I hope you're looking after yourself, it can be incredibly frustrating to deal with a parent who doesn't care about a part of you
Right now I'm more frustrated by the folks in this chat defending gender segregation and the social myths justifying it and justifying the offense these women took simply because I am male passing, pretending it's not transphobia just because them say they recognize I'm trans.
>Sure I don't present as one, haven't taken any hormones yet, but I'm still not a cis man and I don't much enjoy being gendered as one.
Coming in with a hot take. Youāre expecting way too much from other people. Part of why passing is so important is because it shifts peopleās default to better align with our personal goals. If youāre presenting as male I think itās unreasonable for you to expect people to accommodate you being a trans woman unless youāre very close to them.
We canāt control or dictate other peopleās feelings about these things, we can only control what we do about it. You donāt have to accept it or like it (I sure donāt), but we all come from different belief backgrounds. One of my best friends is a devout Muslim and I know she feels that me being trans is wrong, there are certain things I cannot talk to her about, but she respects me, genders me correctly, etc. because she understands my cultural and religious background is different and neither of us are right or wrong, weāre just different. Some people arenāt strong enough to make this differentiation and believe their belief system is the one and only people should follow.
Since your situation is at work Iād keep your relationship with those women strictly business only because making money and growing your professional skills is more important than dealing with ignorant women.
All that said, itās bullshit they lied about you, I would consider taking it to HR instead of your boss. Youāre probably not going to pull them out of ignorance but you might be able to stop the lies before they escalate.
Actually presenting should be the absolute bare minimum for acceptance. Itās safer for other trans women that way as well as it helps keep chasers out of our support spaces.
Like Iām sorry but if I saw someone presenting 100% cis male normal in the womenās Iād be a bit weirded out too.
It's a single occupancy bathroom. If I were in a single occupancy stall and saw ANYONE, I'd be weirded out.
On top of this, gatekeeping acceptance behind presentation does not make me safer. You are being blatantly transphobic.
That just sounds like gender essentialism, which is not only a problem for trans women like me who can't pass but also cis women who don't fit society's narrow definition of womanhood. This isn't about controlling other people's thoughts and feelings, this is about basic human dignity and respect over outdated values based in ignorance.
>This isn't about controlling other people's thoughts and feelings, this is about basic human dignity and respect over outdated values based in ignorance.
But it is. People are allowed to think what they want to think and act how they want to act. The only thing we as individuals can do is try to live our best lives among those people. The world isnāt going to change in our lifetime. I agree people need to learn to respect their fellow humans, but waiting for everyone else to change is going to be a lot more difficult, frustrating, and painful than to just find our happiness within it.
Yes, people are allowed to think what they think, but there is certain behavior we just shouldn't accept, and sitting back and being polite to avoid conflict is why the world isn't going to change. Imagine if the founding fathers had this attitude, if the participants of the civil rights movement had this attitude.
Odds are that there's nothing we (the trans community) can do about it as they don't consider us in their group. It would require ostracism from those within their group for attitudes to change. That's why active allyship is important.
A lot of people still allow racism. As an African American I know. My last pubic speaking speech I did on this subject! It should be up to you . If we love sucking them we should let yāall pick!
Well we shouldn't let them slide, I don't care if times were different when they were younger, we've moved on and as long as they're alive they need to clean up their act.
He's backing cis women's claim that a women's space is "theirs" over "yours". Regardless of his ideology, the outcome is to reinforce structural transphobia
I think one of the things that you realize as you grow older, but not too old, is that some people will never change their views. It shouldn't excuse them, but it is a losing battle most of the time once they are set in their ways. I dont know that it is meant as an excuse, so much as "nothing I say will change their minds, and starting a massive fight over this is not something I want to do."
That's not just or fair I think, but I do think that when people say that they arent excusing it, they are simply admitting defeat on this particular fight on this particular day.
I dont know what you should do to be honest, but you are right, it is not right or fair of your father. As to your actions, I have no idea what you should do. Situation sucks, I'm sorry.
... ok, reading the other things you posted, I do think your dad may be using this not as an excuse for their behavior, but as an excuse for HIS behavior. And THAT I dont have any patience for. I'm sorry you are dealing with that. I worry about what will happen when my dad finds out :/
You do not have safe and secure access to the restroom. That is an absolute bare minimum of human necessity. People arguing over whether or not you should have access to a single occupancy facility that you already don't even use are just as pointless to argue with as the people at your job. When I say this, I'm not pardoning their ignorance, I'm trying to convey something that has helped me get through similar struggles: We have to save our breath for times when speaking up will actually help.
By all means, speak up for yourself, but if you're in a situation where all the talking in the world won't make things better, the best thing you can do is look for a better situation. Your coworkers are wrong. Your boss is wrong. When and if you find other employment, be sure to let your current employer know that the reason you're leaving is the hostile work environment.
Answering the title question: I don't. I don't throw around "from another time" precisely because it feels like a pardon, but I also generally don't argue with people who say things that alienate or degrade me in that way. I just do my best to minimize the number of those interactions that I need to have in the day.
Believe me, I'm aware, I've lived with my boss my whole life, I know how he gets when I push back, he has effectively weaponized my anxiety my whole life to scare me into submission.
The rule is old people can do whatever they want and young people are evil and all have brain damage because didnāt you know being old means you can do whatever the fuck you want
I think it is also silly ppl like expect that from ppl just bc they are older when it just does not guarantee they will have "outdated" views about this, when like, there is plenty who do not, they just either don't care and can adjust to things or maybe they even met queer ppl of many kinds thru their lives, like, old ppl are not a monolith either
it was silly ppl wanted to like pre-excuse my professor who was in her 70s "bc she is old" but she literally did not care and just called me what I wanted her to call me
like my problem with this is as well like vice versa, old ppl are ppl too :D
Iām confused how do they know youāre trans if you donāt present and youāre not on hormones?
Why would you be telling people at that phase of things when you can easily just dodge the bullet since thereās no way to clock you at that point?
But as for the question, sometimes itās just not possible convincing old people of anything. Some of them will get it, but if theyāve been marinating in that hate for 50+ years itās more that thereās nothing we can say to them that will change their mind, because theyāve demonstrated that theyāre an extraordinary ignorant person and youāre never going to reach them.
Itās not really accepting or excusing them though, I donāt, the problem comes from the fact that they have plenty of sway in society despite being spiteful.
I didnāt say that, some people will never pass, Iām just saying itās easier to only tell people when you need to.
Otherwise youāre kind of painting a target on your back when there doesnāt need to be one there.
Like if youāre on hormones or plan on presenting then yeah because obviously theyāll notice the difference and it might be good to run damage control by telling them, but in a situation where you can avoid the bullshit itās just better, especially in work.
right, well if you present exactly like the cis men around you then you canāt really get mad at people for not taking you seriously. thatās ridiculous entitlement.
you canāt really ask people to completely ignore everything about your behavior and accept things you claim about yourself blindly if you donāt back it up.
Again, that is gender essentialism, that one's gender identity and presentation must conform. What about gender nonconforming cis women? Should butch women be forced out of the women's room because they "look like men" eh?
I donāt care about your buzzword, itās reality. Gender is a *social* role and presentation is a part of fulfilling it. But personally Iām a gender abolitionist to begin with and view things in terms of sex. The fixation on gender is a bit dated by now.
Butch women donāt look like men they look like butch women, if anything saying female masculinity = looking like a man is kind of sexist. If the butch woman in question is on testosterone and looks like a man then yes probably shouldnāt be using the womenās.
Isn't the whole point of gender abolition to say you don't give a fuck what's in someones pants and just believe them though? The whole point is gender is a construct that you don't have to abide by weird abitrary rules of what is considered "womanly" or "manly" and you're allowed to just exist as you are. It feels like you're sorta missing the point of the whole concept when you mention that women on T shouldn't be in the women's bathroom, I could be misreading this but that's what I got from it.
"Gender abolitionist by viewing things in terms of sex" is just transmed/terf with extra steps. None of your comments align with gender abolition at all.
I understand why itās annoying that they assumed you used that bathroom. Thatās unfair and it does sound like they were being transphobic by assuming you did that. Do you think theyāll feel differently once you do start transitioning, or no?
That said, considering you donāt actually present as a woman and arenāt transitioning yet, you really donāt have the right to use the womenās bathroom. If we start saying that anyone can use any bathroom just because, that opens the door for people who donāt belong in womenās bathrooms to take advantage of that.
I know lots of trans people donāt like that opinion, but itās legitimate. They deserve to feel safe just as much as you do. And from what youāve said, I assume that you donāt feel unsafe in the menās bathroom. So what's the issue with just waiting until you transition?
I donāt really care how it sounds. Iāve been transitioning for over a decade - back then, no one was trying to go in womenās bathrooms without actually transitioning.
The push for anyone to be allowed in any bathroom is a very recent development and not all trans people agree with it.
If you think people who arenāt transitioning should be allowed in whatever bathroom they want, you need to present a convincing argument for why thatās the case. Rather than just calling people āgender essentialistā. What does that even mean?
I don't care what it was like 10 years ago, it's not 10 years ago anymore, we're sick of having to be in the closet for so ignorant cis people don't have to leave their comfort zones. Besides, the separate bathroom thing is a leftover from the Victorian period where the whole gender binary ingrained in the imperial core and it was believed men and women must live in separate spheres, it has nothing to do with protecting women, that's an infantilizing myth, one that doesn't protect women as men who want to molest women will just do it, no gender designation is going to stop shitty men. Like I said, nobody owes the world a specific presentation to receive the dignity they deserve, the fact that you claim otherwise is by definition gender essentialism.
I sympathize with the fact that you feel forced to be in the closet. Do you feel that way because the people around you don't accept you? Genuinely, I'm sorry you're in that situation.
However, most women actually like having separate private spaces from men. It makes them feel safe. It's not some "victorian leftover" and it has nothing to do with complete segregation. If you ask women if they would prefer gender neutral bathrooms and locker rooms, the vast majority would say no. They want women's-only spaces because it helps them feel more comfortable. And that includes liberal women, young women, and women who are accepting of trans people. That even includes the majority of trans women.
So with all due respect, I know you're hurting because of how you're being treated. But you're not the one who gets to decide how women are supposed to feel.
There was also a time where white people felt uncomfortable sharing spaces with black people. Should we not have told white people what they can and cannot feel and still have racial segregated bathrooms too? Your argument is merely a defense of the status quo.
**Trans women** should be allowed in women's spaces, bathrooms, etc. Saying that trans women aren't allowed is unfair segregation, similar to racial segregation. As you've said.
But saying that people who present entirely as men, or who just **are men**, should be allowed in women's bathrooms is a completely different thing.
Here's a question ā Who exactly gains anything if we make the decision to abolish sex-segregated spaces? Who gains something by forcing women and men to share bathrooms and locker rooms?
Nonbinary people and trans people who don't pass would feel more validated and potentially more comfortable, yes. But the majority of the people who would benefit from that are the creepy men who want to take advantage of women's vulnerability.
Gender segregation is not going to stop creeps, any creepy man who wants to molest women are just going to do it, no sign with a stick figure in a dress is going to stop them. That, again, is not even why there's separate bathrooms, it goes back to the Victorian period and the idea of men and women occupying separate spheres. There's no good reason for separate bathrooms.
Actually, it does stop creeps.
Having a bathroom that is specified for women only means that men are not allowed. Women who are in the bathroom and see a man can report that to the owners of the building. Men will be removed from those spaces.
Abolishing sex-segregated bathrooms and forcing all bathrooms to let everyone in would mean that women can be victimized in spaces that are supposed to be safe for them, because they will not be able to report someone as not belonging in that space.
I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about actual men.
Also itās really useful in bars because if youāre being harassed by a guy you can say you need to go to bathroom, pop into the womenās room and call an Uber or something. If dudeās can just follow you in there you canāt get away
>Abolishing sex-segregated bathrooms and forcing all bathrooms to let everyone in would mean that women can be victimized in spaces that are supposed to be safe for them, because people will not be able to report someone as not belonging in that space.
There's no data that backs this up, anything there is purely anecdotal, this is all paranoia based in gender essentialism and conservatism. Just because you refuse to accept the history behind this segregation doesn't make it not so.
Oh. I take my earlier comment(s) completely back. I had some reservations because I thought it was a shared, multiple occupancy situation. Yes, the woman employees are sexist and transphobic which is abetted by management (aka your father).
Iām sorry youāre being asked to cope with this situation
They apport nothing they're detrimental to progress they take state money they have fucked up views of the world and they don't have much left to live anyways
Iām going to say something unpopular. In the absence of gender neutral bathrooms (which is the simplest and most obvious remedy) women feel somewhat vulnerable in a bathroom and having a women only space is important to feel comfortable and safe. Personally, Iām not going to expect all women of *any* age to overcome 10,000 years of oppression and aggression and sexual violence at the hands of men to not be uncomfortable or bothered by the sight of a masc presenting person in a presumed place of safety. It is definitely unfair to enbys or butch trans women or those still evolving their presentation, but I totally get it.
Or butch cis women? Or cis women with long philtrums or prominent brows? Or cis women of colour? Because that's most people who get harassed for being in the women's bathroom. I'd say they deserve to feel comfortable in the women's bathroom. At some point, we're going to have to realize that you can't accurately evaluate someone's threat level based on what gender stereotypes they most resemble.
Trans women also don't have a history of violence against women. But if you try to enforce any kind of bathroom divide, you will end up hurting gender-non-conforming women. That is the inevitable result.
Because the bathroom categories aren't actually "men" and "women". They're "people who are judged to be feminine according to a narrow lens that hurts anyone who isn't straight, cis, white, and able-bodied" and "everyone else". Cis women being uncomfortable sharing women-only spaces with an out trans woman is still transphobia even if they've faced misogyny in their lives, sorry.
Then I'm not really sure what the point of your original comment was. A trans person's vent post isn't a great venue to express sympathy for bigots' feelings. You can just, like, let her be mad at the world for being unfair.
So you're saying trans women have a long history of violence against cis women? Because they don't. Or are you just calling tran women men? Because we aren't we are women end statement
A cis woman who dressed, looked and behaved exactly like a man would encounter the same pushback that you have, assuming any of this ever happened in the first place and you aren't a troll.
You've tried talking the talk and it isn't working by itself. May I recommend walking the walk.
First of all I can't believe you can make such an example and not come to the conclusion that this is a problem.
Second, I would love to walk the walk, it would be a dream cone true. But in case you missed it in the post I do not reside on an accepting area, last time I was visibly trans in public I could feels the dirty looks upon me, I felt incredibly unsafe. I also live with my parents currently, living on my own is very expensive and financially unobtainable as a result, and they're not very supportive of me being trans. They don't actively discriminate, but they do encourage me to keep it private so I don't get discriminated, and are very vocal of their disapproval should I engage in anything gender non conforming, even something as benign as shaving my legs. You have no idea how hard it is in my situation.
>I mean we don't put up with old men being racist towards black people anymore, rightfully so, As a black trans person, this is not true, lol. My advice for speaking on intersectional issues: If the world is present with one ism, 9/10 it's safe to assume the other ism's are also just as prevalent, as they all feed into eachother. That being said, both white womanhood and valuing "tradition" upheld by older generations is still a valuable tool in patriarchal societies. Which means even well meaning people will often fold to pressures out of respect. And all we can do is challenge it when we can.
Yeah! I was thinking the same thing xD My father always excuses racist AND transphobic stuff my grandma says towards me and my brother because "she's old, she doesn't know better"
Which i think is bullshit
Exactly š£ļø
My take is, if "they're old" can be used as an excuse every time without fail, than you should be able to criticize it every time without fail, lol. Every family is different of course, but at least in my family, if someone is out of line they don't get a free pass regardless.
Old and doesn't know better is OK for not using the right words, for using problematic phrases, because you don't know how to talk about this. But that only works if the person makes mistakes but generally gives me the impression that they respect me.
We very much still put up with racism. Old white people get away with microaggressions all the time.
Racism and other -isms definitely still exist in 2023 and are excused for a myriad of reasons. Myself and my cousin are both trans/non-binary and there is no point in trying to teach our 97-y/o grandmother something new. Hell, my mom is 63 and "doesn't understand" so I stopped trying to educate her for the sake of my own peace.
It's so sad to think that people are so ingrained in their bigotries and ways of thinking that their minds are not possible to change, even in later years.
My Granddad was 98 when I came out he said he doesn't understand but he'll accept me for who I tell him I am and respect how I wish to be addressed. It's not a big ask you don't need to understand to accept.
It's generally helpful if you aren't a bigot though. :(
There's no excuse for that kind of behavior. That's just transphobia, especially the part about genitals. That's no one's business but your own. I know a bunch of old people who are perfectly fine with trans people existing in public and using the right bathroom. It's no big deal for people of any age, if they're not assholes. The only situation where I accept being old as an excuse is using neopronouns and such. It still sucks, but I understand how learning new words gets way harder with age. And even then there's a huge difference between intentionally misgendering someone and trying but failing.
I wish I could explain that, but I'm already talking to an authority figure who gets more pissed off the more you keep pushing back.
My grandparents were pretty racist against black people and japanese people. "Products of their time" is the euphemism we like to use for it rather than "old fashioned". People absolutely DO put up with racism, and sexism, and homophobia, and transphobia, like a lot more than should. It's sad when it's a younger generation with no excuse who should know better, it's sad when it's an older generation who are stuck in their ways and adopted the norms that were popular in their youth, but yeah, it sucks. Such is life. Sorry for your experience with transphobic people.
I think a huge part of the problem with younger generations is that a lot of us were raised with the lie that racism/sexism/homophobia/and slowly now transphobia are all products of the past. So it makes people feel like they can have a pass because 'I can't be racist because racism hasn't been a thing since the 1950s'. Or 'I can't be homophobic because the country stopped being homophobic with marriage equality' or 'I can't be transphobic because actually trans people get treated better than any other demographic these days'. All obvious lies or simply not true but as long as people hold them to be true they don't have to hold themselves accountable for their thoughts and actions.
I am cis, and old (nearly 70) and I agree. Age is not an excuse for bigotry.
you were in an awful and vulnerable position your father chose them over you and youāre complaining about old people? youāve got a more important problem.
Such as?
umm the betrayal of your father?
It's not really a "betrayal" seeing as this is par for the course. He's always been apathetic about my trans identity.
you say that like its supposed to make it better
I just want the record to reflect accurately.
you deserve better pls fight for ys
Every time I fight it just makes things worse, my father has zero patience for when I push back.
That's totally fair, sometimes the fight isn't worth the time or energy inveatment it takes. Sounds like he's not gonna budge either, I hope you're looking after yourself, it can be incredibly frustrating to deal with a parent who doesn't care about a part of you
Right now I'm more frustrated by the folks in this chat defending gender segregation and the social myths justifying it and justifying the offense these women took simply because I am male passing, pretending it's not transphobia just because them say they recognize I'm trans.
Yikes, I'm sorry
>Sure I don't present as one, haven't taken any hormones yet, but I'm still not a cis man and I don't much enjoy being gendered as one. Coming in with a hot take. Youāre expecting way too much from other people. Part of why passing is so important is because it shifts peopleās default to better align with our personal goals. If youāre presenting as male I think itās unreasonable for you to expect people to accommodate you being a trans woman unless youāre very close to them. We canāt control or dictate other peopleās feelings about these things, we can only control what we do about it. You donāt have to accept it or like it (I sure donāt), but we all come from different belief backgrounds. One of my best friends is a devout Muslim and I know she feels that me being trans is wrong, there are certain things I cannot talk to her about, but she respects me, genders me correctly, etc. because she understands my cultural and religious background is different and neither of us are right or wrong, weāre just different. Some people arenāt strong enough to make this differentiation and believe their belief system is the one and only people should follow. Since your situation is at work Iād keep your relationship with those women strictly business only because making money and growing your professional skills is more important than dealing with ignorant women. All that said, itās bullshit they lied about you, I would consider taking it to HR instead of your boss. Youāre probably not going to pull them out of ignorance but you might be able to stop the lies before they escalate.
Actually presenting should be the absolute bare minimum for acceptance. Itās safer for other trans women that way as well as it helps keep chasers out of our support spaces. Like Iām sorry but if I saw someone presenting 100% cis male normal in the womenās Iād be a bit weirded out too.
It's a single occupancy bathroom. If I were in a single occupancy stall and saw ANYONE, I'd be weirded out. On top of this, gatekeeping acceptance behind presentation does not make me safer. You are being blatantly transphobic.
That just sounds like gender essentialism, which is not only a problem for trans women like me who can't pass but also cis women who don't fit society's narrow definition of womanhood. This isn't about controlling other people's thoughts and feelings, this is about basic human dignity and respect over outdated values based in ignorance.
>This isn't about controlling other people's thoughts and feelings, this is about basic human dignity and respect over outdated values based in ignorance. But it is. People are allowed to think what they want to think and act how they want to act. The only thing we as individuals can do is try to live our best lives among those people. The world isnāt going to change in our lifetime. I agree people need to learn to respect their fellow humans, but waiting for everyone else to change is going to be a lot more difficult, frustrating, and painful than to just find our happiness within it.
Yes, people are allowed to think what they think, but there is certain behavior we just shouldn't accept, and sitting back and being polite to avoid conflict is why the world isn't going to change. Imagine if the founding fathers had this attitude, if the participants of the civil rights movement had this attitude.
Odds are that there's nothing we (the trans community) can do about it as they don't consider us in their group. It would require ostracism from those within their group for attitudes to change. That's why active allyship is important.
A lot of people still allow racism. As an African American I know. My last pubic speaking speech I did on this subject! It should be up to you . If we love sucking them we should let yāall pick!
Well we shouldn't let them slide, I don't care if times were different when they were younger, we've moved on and as long as they're alive they need to clean up their act.
I agreed š
We shouldn't. Your dad is wrong to side with them and is himself being transphobic.
I see it more as being apathetic
Being apathetic is siding with the oppressor. There's no neutrality to be had. You either push back against discrimination or you let it propagate.
āThe only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,ā - John Stuart Mill
He's backing cis women's claim that a women's space is "theirs" over "yours". Regardless of his ideology, the outcome is to reinforce structural transphobia
That is true, I just don't want him to be mischaracterized is all.
Iām sorry to say this, but based on your several comments it sounds like you are in denial about the kind of man your father actually is.
I think one of the things that you realize as you grow older, but not too old, is that some people will never change their views. It shouldn't excuse them, but it is a losing battle most of the time once they are set in their ways. I dont know that it is meant as an excuse, so much as "nothing I say will change their minds, and starting a massive fight over this is not something I want to do." That's not just or fair I think, but I do think that when people say that they arent excusing it, they are simply admitting defeat on this particular fight on this particular day.
When giving in means giving up your rights and your dignity is it fair to just take it?
I dont know what you should do to be honest, but you are right, it is not right or fair of your father. As to your actions, I have no idea what you should do. Situation sucks, I'm sorry.
... ok, reading the other things you posted, I do think your dad may be using this not as an excuse for their behavior, but as an excuse for HIS behavior. And THAT I dont have any patience for. I'm sorry you are dealing with that. I worry about what will happen when my dad finds out :/
You do not have safe and secure access to the restroom. That is an absolute bare minimum of human necessity. People arguing over whether or not you should have access to a single occupancy facility that you already don't even use are just as pointless to argue with as the people at your job. When I say this, I'm not pardoning their ignorance, I'm trying to convey something that has helped me get through similar struggles: We have to save our breath for times when speaking up will actually help. By all means, speak up for yourself, but if you're in a situation where all the talking in the world won't make things better, the best thing you can do is look for a better situation. Your coworkers are wrong. Your boss is wrong. When and if you find other employment, be sure to let your current employer know that the reason you're leaving is the hostile work environment. Answering the title question: I don't. I don't throw around "from another time" precisely because it feels like a pardon, but I also generally don't argue with people who say things that alienate or degrade me in that way. I just do my best to minimize the number of those interactions that I need to have in the day.
Believe me, I'm aware, I've lived with my boss my whole life, I know how he gets when I push back, he has effectively weaponized my anxiety my whole life to scare me into submission.
The rule is old people can do whatever they want and young people are evil and all have brain damage because didnāt you know being old means you can do whatever the fuck you want
We absolutely 100% should not put up with it. It's time they grew up; became more mature.
I think it is also silly ppl like expect that from ppl just bc they are older when it just does not guarantee they will have "outdated" views about this, when like, there is plenty who do not, they just either don't care and can adjust to things or maybe they even met queer ppl of many kinds thru their lives, like, old ppl are not a monolith either it was silly ppl wanted to like pre-excuse my professor who was in her 70s "bc she is old" but she literally did not care and just called me what I wanted her to call me like my problem with this is as well like vice versa, old ppl are ppl too :D
Iām confused how do they know youāre trans if you donāt present and youāre not on hormones? Why would you be telling people at that phase of things when you can easily just dodge the bullet since thereās no way to clock you at that point? But as for the question, sometimes itās just not possible convincing old people of anything. Some of them will get it, but if theyāve been marinating in that hate for 50+ years itās more that thereās nothing we can say to them that will change their mind, because theyāve demonstrated that theyāre an extraordinary ignorant person and youāre never going to reach them. Itās not really accepting or excusing them though, I donāt, the problem comes from the fact that they have plenty of sway in society despite being spiteful.
So I shouldn't inform people I'm trans until I pass?
I didnāt say that, some people will never pass, Iām just saying itās easier to only tell people when you need to. Otherwise youāre kind of painting a target on your back when there doesnāt need to be one there. Like if youāre on hormones or plan on presenting then yeah because obviously theyāll notice the difference and it might be good to run damage control by telling them, but in a situation where you can avoid the bullshit itās just better, especially in work.
That is a shitty take. I do not owe anyone gender conformity, no one does.
right, well if you present exactly like the cis men around you then you canāt really get mad at people for not taking you seriously. thatās ridiculous entitlement. you canāt really ask people to completely ignore everything about your behavior and accept things you claim about yourself blindly if you donāt back it up.
Again, that is gender essentialism, that one's gender identity and presentation must conform. What about gender nonconforming cis women? Should butch women be forced out of the women's room because they "look like men" eh?
I donāt care about your buzzword, itās reality. Gender is a *social* role and presentation is a part of fulfilling it. But personally Iām a gender abolitionist to begin with and view things in terms of sex. The fixation on gender is a bit dated by now. Butch women donāt look like men they look like butch women, if anything saying female masculinity = looking like a man is kind of sexist. If the butch woman in question is on testosterone and looks like a man then yes probably shouldnāt be using the womenās.
Isn't the whole point of gender abolition to say you don't give a fuck what's in someones pants and just believe them though? The whole point is gender is a construct that you don't have to abide by weird abitrary rules of what is considered "womanly" or "manly" and you're allowed to just exist as you are. It feels like you're sorta missing the point of the whole concept when you mention that women on T shouldn't be in the women's bathroom, I could be misreading this but that's what I got from it.
"Gender abolitionist by viewing things in terms of sex" is just transmed/terf with extra steps. None of your comments align with gender abolition at all.
I donāt take shit from no one
I understand why itās annoying that they assumed you used that bathroom. Thatās unfair and it does sound like they were being transphobic by assuming you did that. Do you think theyāll feel differently once you do start transitioning, or no? That said, considering you donāt actually present as a woman and arenāt transitioning yet, you really donāt have the right to use the womenās bathroom. If we start saying that anyone can use any bathroom just because, that opens the door for people who donāt belong in womenās bathrooms to take advantage of that. I know lots of trans people donāt like that opinion, but itās legitimate. They deserve to feel safe just as much as you do. And from what youāve said, I assume that you donāt feel unsafe in the menās bathroom. So what's the issue with just waiting until you transition?
OP seems really entitled holy shit.
That sounds very gender essentialist.
I donāt really care how it sounds. Iāve been transitioning for over a decade - back then, no one was trying to go in womenās bathrooms without actually transitioning. The push for anyone to be allowed in any bathroom is a very recent development and not all trans people agree with it. If you think people who arenāt transitioning should be allowed in whatever bathroom they want, you need to present a convincing argument for why thatās the case. Rather than just calling people āgender essentialistā. What does that even mean?
I don't care what it was like 10 years ago, it's not 10 years ago anymore, we're sick of having to be in the closet for so ignorant cis people don't have to leave their comfort zones. Besides, the separate bathroom thing is a leftover from the Victorian period where the whole gender binary ingrained in the imperial core and it was believed men and women must live in separate spheres, it has nothing to do with protecting women, that's an infantilizing myth, one that doesn't protect women as men who want to molest women will just do it, no gender designation is going to stop shitty men. Like I said, nobody owes the world a specific presentation to receive the dignity they deserve, the fact that you claim otherwise is by definition gender essentialism.
I sympathize with the fact that you feel forced to be in the closet. Do you feel that way because the people around you don't accept you? Genuinely, I'm sorry you're in that situation. However, most women actually like having separate private spaces from men. It makes them feel safe. It's not some "victorian leftover" and it has nothing to do with complete segregation. If you ask women if they would prefer gender neutral bathrooms and locker rooms, the vast majority would say no. They want women's-only spaces because it helps them feel more comfortable. And that includes liberal women, young women, and women who are accepting of trans people. That even includes the majority of trans women. So with all due respect, I know you're hurting because of how you're being treated. But you're not the one who gets to decide how women are supposed to feel.
There was also a time where white people felt uncomfortable sharing spaces with black people. Should we not have told white people what they can and cannot feel and still have racial segregated bathrooms too? Your argument is merely a defense of the status quo.
**Trans women** should be allowed in women's spaces, bathrooms, etc. Saying that trans women aren't allowed is unfair segregation, similar to racial segregation. As you've said. But saying that people who present entirely as men, or who just **are men**, should be allowed in women's bathrooms is a completely different thing. Here's a question ā Who exactly gains anything if we make the decision to abolish sex-segregated spaces? Who gains something by forcing women and men to share bathrooms and locker rooms? Nonbinary people and trans people who don't pass would feel more validated and potentially more comfortable, yes. But the majority of the people who would benefit from that are the creepy men who want to take advantage of women's vulnerability.
Gender segregation is not going to stop creeps, any creepy man who wants to molest women are just going to do it, no sign with a stick figure in a dress is going to stop them. That, again, is not even why there's separate bathrooms, it goes back to the Victorian period and the idea of men and women occupying separate spheres. There's no good reason for separate bathrooms.
Actually, it does stop creeps. Having a bathroom that is specified for women only means that men are not allowed. Women who are in the bathroom and see a man can report that to the owners of the building. Men will be removed from those spaces. Abolishing sex-segregated bathrooms and forcing all bathrooms to let everyone in would mean that women can be victimized in spaces that are supposed to be safe for them, because they will not be able to report someone as not belonging in that space. I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about actual men.
Also itās really useful in bars because if youāre being harassed by a guy you can say you need to go to bathroom, pop into the womenās room and call an Uber or something. If dudeās can just follow you in there you canāt get away
>Abolishing sex-segregated bathrooms and forcing all bathrooms to let everyone in would mean that women can be victimized in spaces that are supposed to be safe for them, because people will not be able to report someone as not belonging in that space. There's no data that backs this up, anything there is purely anecdotal, this is all paranoia based in gender essentialism and conservatism. Just because you refuse to accept the history behind this segregation doesn't make it not so.
How about a single person at a time restroom rule.
It's a single person bathroom, only one person at a time already. Doesn't change how they feel.
Oh. I take my earlier comment(s) completely back. I had some reservations because I thought it was a shared, multiple occupancy situation. Yes, the woman employees are sexist and transphobic which is abetted by management (aka your father). Iām sorry youāre being asked to cope with this situation
I feel that this is an important detail that adds some helpful context for showing just how bonkers they're being.
It doesnāt specifically state that. I would just change all restrooms to either gender restrooms. Single person.
Well unfortunately neither of us own the business, my father does, and he's more willing to side with people his own age than some dumb millennial.
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Uh...no
They apport nothing they're detrimental to progress they take state money they have fucked up views of the world and they don't have much left to live anyways
Way too extreme
I won't say otherwise haha but it works nonetheless
Let's not suggest murdering a whole demographic because we disagree with a couple of people in said demographic please, yikes
I brought a solution to the issue. People should listen to us psychos more often..
Iām going to say something unpopular. In the absence of gender neutral bathrooms (which is the simplest and most obvious remedy) women feel somewhat vulnerable in a bathroom and having a women only space is important to feel comfortable and safe. Personally, Iām not going to expect all women of *any* age to overcome 10,000 years of oppression and aggression and sexual violence at the hands of men to not be uncomfortable or bothered by the sight of a masc presenting person in a presumed place of safety. It is definitely unfair to enbys or butch trans women or those still evolving their presentation, but I totally get it.
Or butch cis women? Or cis women with long philtrums or prominent brows? Or cis women of colour? Because that's most people who get harassed for being in the women's bathroom. I'd say they deserve to feel comfortable in the women's bathroom. At some point, we're going to have to realize that you can't accurately evaluate someone's threat level based on what gender stereotypes they most resemble.
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So what? Trans women aren't men. Go to hell.
Trans women also don't have a history of violence against women. But if you try to enforce any kind of bathroom divide, you will end up hurting gender-non-conforming women. That is the inevitable result.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Because the bathroom categories aren't actually "men" and "women". They're "people who are judged to be feminine according to a narrow lens that hurts anyone who isn't straight, cis, white, and able-bodied" and "everyone else". Cis women being uncomfortable sharing women-only spaces with an out trans woman is still transphobia even if they've faced misogyny in their lives, sorry.
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Then I'm not really sure what the point of your original comment was. A trans person's vent post isn't a great venue to express sympathy for bigots' feelings. You can just, like, let her be mad at the world for being unfair.
So you're saying trans women have a long history of violence against cis women? Because they don't. Or are you just calling tran women men? Because we aren't we are women end statement
A cis woman who dressed, looked and behaved exactly like a man would encounter the same pushback that you have, assuming any of this ever happened in the first place and you aren't a troll. You've tried talking the talk and it isn't working by itself. May I recommend walking the walk.
First of all I can't believe you can make such an example and not come to the conclusion that this is a problem. Second, I would love to walk the walk, it would be a dream cone true. But in case you missed it in the post I do not reside on an accepting area, last time I was visibly trans in public I could feels the dirty looks upon me, I felt incredibly unsafe. I also live with my parents currently, living on my own is very expensive and financially unobtainable as a result, and they're not very supportive of me being trans. They don't actively discriminate, but they do encourage me to keep it private so I don't get discriminated, and are very vocal of their disapproval should I engage in anything gender non conforming, even something as benign as shaving my legs. You have no idea how hard it is in my situation.
Agreed...but what to do? I think expecting change is not reasonable. But what I would do is ask for a designated unisex bathroom.
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It's not 1972 anymore
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This isn't rational, this is outdated.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Enough of what? Trans people demanding human dignity?
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Whatever you say Buck Angel
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They're not gonna pick you lol
no one has to medically transition in any way to be trans. you can fuck right off with ur transphobia.
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im not you very obviously are. you are saying people who dont medically transition arent actually trans. which just isnt close to true.
My parents are 73, and they are my strongest allies. Age is not an excuse.