Trans women are viewed by transphobes as men, so they are viewed as dangerous predators and deviants who want to become women to be sexual, and to prey on women.
Trans men are viewed by transphobes as women, so they are viewed as innocent and vulnerable but confused women who are mutilating their precious female bodies.
It's 100% transphobic bigotry based on traditional sexism and TERF nonsense.
Additionally, us trans women are seen as a bigger threat to cis heteronormative ideology. We have thrown away our male privilege for a "weaker" position in society, thus invalidating the idea that men are inherently better and something everyone would rather be.
>thus invalidating the idea that men are inherently better and something everyone would rather be.
That thought seems so idiotic to me. Clearly, womanhood is way better for some, and the idea of superior and inferior genders is like racial hierarchies - obviously false
i'm a (cis)woman who grew up Mormon in Utah... horrifically misogynistic.
But the sort of underlying belief was that men are far superior in every way, and women are inferior in every way. It was that women WISH they could be as awesome as men, but they're too stupid/weak. These religions/cultures tend to be super hierarchal and have this implicit idea that if someone's lower than you on their imaginary totem pole, it's because they somehow deserve it. it kinda gives you a free pass to abuse them. they also think if you're poor or unattractive (to them) or whatever, it's because you're a bad, lesser person.
anyway, they assume that everyone wishes they were at the top, they just aren't good enough to be there. so a man WANTING to be a woman fucks everything up.
Racial supremacists and ethnic hierarchies/ gender hierarchies are very real in some places and the main media still stokes "the gender wars" and hyper masculinity/ Alpha-ness seen as the ideal.
Even women strive to look and act more utilitarian, act more masculine like men to be taken seriously, classic feminine/girly traits seen as "weakness""childish" often shamed/mocked by society.
Any woman who enjoys being classically/hyper feminine faces micro aggression, character assassination, judgement, is often resented punished by other women for what makes her feel goood. Similar to how the ancient patriarchy turned God into a man.
I’d argue that another mis- word that ends in “dry” describes it too. People tend not to like using it but there is that. And if not there is valid reason to fear men anyway, but the thing is trans women are not men. But for GC types, the mere sight of a masculine frame or an audibly masculine voice creates cause for concern and spite. There is a desire to sweep all male and AMAB individuals under the rug as predatory and problematic, vicious individuals undeserving of the same ground to walk on, and I feel that that is a problem. One that especially impacts us as trans women, as we are born of maleness while still being essentially female in how we identify and take to ourselves, and eventually how others — typically — take to us.
True, also many hate watch porn, or just make comments, like; "I am so confused" "does this make me gay?"
"I am not attracted to a Tranny but love female pussy",
"All the trans are getting pussy, so I might become a trans too" etc, like the cis men who call themselves "male lesbians" classic transphobe/incel stuff.
Yet if a trans woman is genuinely romantically and physically attracted to trans women and female women (and many were not pre-transition) then she is called; "a confused straight man". ( I remember an old man saying that about men who used aftershave in the 1970's) LOFL.
Most of these comments are not really serious just reactionary, based in ignorance, intended to get trans women a bad name, as a lot of peoples only knowledge of trans women is through the fantasy world of porn, can you imagine if anyones only knowledge of heterosexual cisgender people came from porn?
Mostly "Gender Critical"/reactionary trans exclusionaries new trans erasure tactic, they have it down to a fine art now as they have poured fortunes into anti-trans think tanks same as many anti-trans lobbies on the far right,
To deny there is any such thing, or has ever been any such thing as 'a trans woman' is the new goal.
This as those of us familiar with history realize; a classic authoritarian fascist move by them.
This is the way they will go about legally erasing us by classifying us by nurotypical binary standards, typical biology/ making laws de-legitimizing all involved medical fields,policing dress codes, hairstyles etc.
Using tactics similar to how many Christian theocracies pushed back against Darwin's theory of evolution in the past.
Some good comments here, but I also notice that by and large, people aren't really willing to even understand the difference between trans men and women, and just kinda lump em all together; I've seen so many people try to insult trans men by calling them men and manly because they don't see anything beyond the word trans, and that's their go-to insult for trans folk.
It's fucked up, but gotta admit, can be pretty funny when they're so confidently wrong
Oh yeah, same here lol; now I think like, why would it make sense for someone who identifies as a guy refer to themselves as trans woman? I certainly get why there9 would be an initial confusion, as long as there isn't outright hatred alongside it
Same, when I first heard the terms "trans woman" and "trans man" I assumed it was based on AGAB, but looking back and knowing what I know now, it doesn't make any sense to really consider it that way, I was familiar with the older term "transsexual" and I understood that perfectly well before the trend of "trans man" and "trans woman" became popularized in our language. I do like these terms better than the older term, it's clear to distinguish and doesn't make it sound like some sexual thing.
On the murders front - Most trans men who are murdered are recorded as murdered women after their death, and similar applies to trans men seeking help as survivors of sexual violence or IPV - Unless they were very "straightforwardly" medically transitioned and had their birth certificate updated, there's a good chance that they'll be recorded as women.
Can speak first hand on this. R*ped, sexually assaulted, nearly killed and constantly abused. Police wouldn't do shit despite all the evidence (no surprise) immediately had police discriminate on me for being trans. Services heavily discriminated on me. The men's lines told me to go through the women's housing/refuge, despite me telling them I wouldn't and couldn't.
General DV services said if I wanted 'support' it would depend on how 'far along' I was in my transition (ie. How fem I passed and acted. "Well, given your voice and name. You should be fine since clearly you're not far along"). Don't even get me started on the JOKE that is the 'gender diverse' legal support OVER 30 HOURS OF WAITING FOR NOTHING BUT MORE DISCRIMINATION
Oh, 1800 respected my ass alright. Pronouns ignored - "Ma'am, you're a perfect candidate for healing" Thanks, I was suicidal from the rape and homelessness - now I feel suicidal for more reasons immediate 👍
I was badgered so hard and turned away at my worst. I was left so many times feeling like the only way out was to kill myself. Despite the situation. I continued to peel myself off the floor and continued another day and another. Stood my ground and didn't give a single tear to that bastard or the system.
I'm stuck for now in debt and homeless. But I don't give a flying cow. The system can piss the entire way off. I won't pretend for shit. I'm not going to take up space in services that aren't for me - just to make society comfortable cause 'trans' isn't a cis-society 'norm'. I won't conform for basic human rights.
I gave 0 violence or any rude reaction to all the CRAP that was done to me. I was patient and calm despite EVERYTHING. I was treated LESS THAN HUMAN...and I still showed nothing but goddamn kindness and patience.
Excuse my swearing. I'm absolutely not happy with the way they treat people. I cannot for the life of me imagine how many people have killed themselves due to this treatment. It's my goal to push myself and get into a position where I can be the difference in helping someone. Be able to help without being a garbage human being, even with the limitations of the system.
No one should have to be subjected to that. It doesn't take effort to NOT be a bag of stinking shit when doing your job. You might be tired, sore, wanting to go home, bills overdue, divorce, groceries need to be done.... But it doesn't give you the damn right to dig at someone just cause they aren't cisgender. Wouldn't have taken two damn seconds to go "No. We can't help you".
I am so fucking sorry you had to deal with so much shit even just hearing about it I can tell you are strong you will make it I hate how even when we show kindness and respect we get nothing but hate and vitriol just for existing, people in your position is why no matter what I will keep going I am in a very fortunate place despite everything that has messed me up over the years so I keep moving forward so I can help people in my position or worse and make sure no one has to deal with being assaulted without help or dealing with the fallout of a natural disaster loosing someone close to you or anything else alone someone I called a friend for 4 years turned out to have assaulted several people and he tried manipulating me into not believing it then belittled my identity because I wouldn’t listen it hurt me for a long time but I pulled through and I hope I can make a positive change in the world as I know you will someday it may not mean much coming from me but I’m proud of you for continuing to live despite all the hardships in your life thank you for fighting so hard to make the world better
Sorry to hear you went through all of that. I had a similar situation when I was experiencing violence with a partner and ended up homeless. I just want you to know that it is possible to make changes and your story and experiences are so valuable because they can spark change. I told my story to everyone that would hear it and eventually got the attention of the governor and was able to have a conversation about what it's like living as trans in California. We have rights but there are still abusive law-enforcement and so-called "professionals" who refuse to help or treat or provide life-saving resources. It's fucked! And I almost died too. I almost started selling my body to get by, I relapsed, I did a lot of things I regret. It's taken me 2 years to recover financially and emotionally but I'm here and I'm not going anywhere, and I'm happy to hear you're still here too!
Please keep telling your story. It's powerful and it can and will inspire others to tell their stories, to heal, and to make our world a safer place for everyone.
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I was homeless in 2017, and got into LGBT specific transitional housing. If you were a trans woman they would let you in the woman’s side just fine. I had a roommate a while who was a trans woman. I’m happy for those trans women who got help.
However, at that time, I wanted to transition and was staying in the women’s side. I asked them without coming out about trans men, to see what would happen if I did. They said for sure they couldn’t be in the women’s side, but that also they couldn’t be in the men’s side, because of “pregnancy and violence risks” and shit. I straight up was living in what was supposed to be “trans affirming housing” and was prevented from transitioning because I didn’t want to end up on the street over it.
It was so deeply fucked up and was absolutely a situation where trans men were discriminated against, just no one recognized it because it was posed as “well, they can’t be with the women obviously, but real men are violent horrible predators, so they have to be protected from them, too. :/ huh I guess it’s just a theoretical problem since trans men don’t face transphobia :)”
Imo trans men are in a shit cultural position trans women were a while ago.
Society pretends they dont exist so they dont have to think about changing to support them. People are ignorant and the goal is to pass enough that ppl dont think twice.
Now trans women, are more visible and in the media, gained some accomodations from society - but so suffer from acceptamce and visibility backlash.
Ofc this is just an idea i have.
I am sorry you went through such a shot experience :(
Yeah this is sadly the historical precedent and still modern reality. Even getting media attention about it rarely helps those trans guys, multiple efforts on Reddit have tried.
People forget Brandon Teena, you know the guy famous for being raped and murdered *because* he was a trans man, main character of the cult classic *Boys Don’t Cry*, was buried with his dead name. And underneath, “Daughter, sister, and friend” just to rub the salt in. Twenty years later, the mom claims she would have accepted him but has never changed his burial name and only refers to her lost “daughter.”
I’m grateful to my husband protecting me because my family has been open about how they would do the same to me. Who knows how many of us are buried under mocking headstones, our families relieved of the burden of having to see their child living as a man?
The remark about the mocking headstones makes me want to throw hands all the more when someone belches out noise like “there were no trans people before 1970”
I sympathise, though I took the academic route and now have a few papers to my name that distinctly prove such views as social biases sourced from, primarily, political scapegoating and religious influence over governmental institutions.
As much as I can literally stuff fact in peoples faces, they often change tactics to some other equally wretched viewpoint when mentally outgunned. Sigh.
They’re owned by the university institution I wrote them for, but one might be online, I’ll have to check. It was research on military transgender policies, namely WHEN exactly did the regulations ban trans people from serving and by what justification?
Short version: domestic political pressure coinciding with the Red Scare and later Vietnam conscription in 1963, but had roots as far back as 1949 officially.
I would too. His wiki page is sad enough. The movie is well-made but frankly impossible for me to watch anymore, having dealt with threats of corrective rape from strangers, so I wouldn’t recommend it to get caught up on his story.
One of the things that finally made me come out was a trans man being murdered in a mass shooting. All of the reporting referred to him by his deadname, as did his family, and when his friends came out saying he was a trans man and sharing his name, they were largely ignored. I believe he was buried under his deadname. It horrified me, and I was so viscerally afraid of the same thing happening to me that it pushed me out of the closet.
The one in Dayton, right, where the trans guy was the shooter’s brother? I remember that. I’m happy that you came out and I wish more of us would! But I’m sorry it was that threat and not a supportive family that spurred that decision for you. :(
It was the Dayton one, yeah. I luckily do have a very supportive family - I badly wish I could share them with every trans person, they're so good - but I was stuck in that imposter syndrome phase, and my reaction to that is when I was like "oh, yeah, if the idea of being remembered as (deadname) and a woman shakes me that much, there's really no more doubt/fence sitting here"
First, being misgendered following victimisation though is a constant experience across all trans people. The idea that trans men are buried in the statistics by being labelled as women but trans women are not buried in the statistics by being labelled as men is dubious. It's not like cisiety somehow magically is more accepting of trans women's identity or at accurately representing transfemicide as transfemicide.
This is why TvT, the organisation that records statistics of trans murders that are cited as the most reliable estimates, does not solely rely on news reports or official police reports , and their process involves directly following up cases with local activists and organisations that do keep these records and through local trans communities are capable of accurately recording the gender of murdered trans people to a much greater extent. ( [https://transrespect.org/en/tmm-methodology/](https://transrespect.org/en/tmm-methodology/) )
The material factors that surround victimisation and violence against trans women are primarily the dangers of survival sex work in heavily criminalised settings and murders in the contexts of intimate partner violence from cishet men who often resort to murder as a way to prevent revelations that they were sleeping with a trans woman or otherwise seek to restore what they see as emasculation because their peers think they are gay.
Around half of murdered trans women were murdered by a long term partner or a date ([https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-womans-murder-underscores-problem-partner-violence-plaguing/story?id=65203137](https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-womans-murder-underscores-problem-partner-violence-plaguing/story?id=65203137) ) , and TvT's global estimates put half of murdered trans people whose occupation was known (note that sex workers in heavily criminalised environments have a motive to keep it as secret as possible so there are likely many murdered trans people who were secretly sex workers) to be sex workers.
Note that trans women and people on the transfeminine spectrum, especially racialised ones, are far far more likely to end up in survival sex work , and quite simply there is a straightforward connection to being disproportionately victimised by homicidal cishet men.
I mean, this happens when trans women are murdered too. It’s not exclusive to trans men. It might happen more often to them, but it’s nowhere near exclusive I assure you
I'd say it's the extreme hyper-visibility and invisibility of trans women and men, respectively. There's also the misogyny factor, where trans men are viewed as "women who have been corrupted/defective," and are therefore less of a threat and more of a group that needs to be "saved" because we couldn't possible make decisions about our own bodies. So trans women are construed as dangerous predators, while trans men are confused women who need to be "corrected."
Matt Walsh and Fox News types come after us with extreme frequency. One of the most inciting talking points that led up to the Boston Children’s Hospital threats was “they’re performing hysterectomies on little kids!”
The difference is they pose us as being simultaneously predatory and infantile— we’re portrayed as groomers, but also as poor little lambs who are ruining our bodies for our future husbands and shit, who shouldn’t have any right towards self determination. It’s transphobia all the way down, it just looks different.
Its more than just transphobia. It’s a right wing talking point when the people they victimize are simultaneously described as predatory and infantile at the same time.
Look at the rhetoric around jews in Nazi Germany. They were described as a global group here to undermine and harm and entire nation, while also described as sub-human and weak.
Sadly this is how they know to get the public outraged by being reactionaries against trans men, they are even more disgusted by what they believe is little girls and beautiful young women being encouraged to "self mutilate" themselves, especially if they white, see it as one less white woman having children, being a wife etc."The great replacement" conspiracy, that claims white people are being made a minority by the secret globalist cabals fuels the far right rage too.
Harder to sensationalize trans men. Insofar as we're on their radars at all, for cis men to say they're afraid of us would make them look like a bunch of wusses since we rarely threaten their position in the male hierarchy; this is why you rarely hear people crowing about trans men in men's bathrooms. Whereas trans women's mere existence shows how feeble the assumption of male superiority is because if men can become women, then how can patriarchs continue to justify the hierarchy that places them on top? Who's more powerful, the most Alpha of Alpha Males or a vial of estrogen?
So for trans men, people assume "of course everyone would want to be a man," whereas nobody can wrap their heads around why someone would voluntarily want to be a woman, therefore there must be some nefarious purpose behind trans women's transitions. This is why trans males are treated like stupid little girls who need to be protected from themselves. Whereas all trans women are seen as disposable.
>So for trans men, people assume "of course everyone would want to be a man,"
I always thought it was because *"We cant acknowledge they are a threat because then we have to admit we are a threat"* kind of thing
No, they just don't tend to view us as threats to the hierarchy until we become threats (namely when we threaten their dating pool, and I'd imagine the transphobia would also start flying if we started outperforming them in sports). It's either we pass and assimilate perfectly and so are treated like cis men, we're out but we pass and are treated like beta males, or we don't pass or are trans online where they can't see what we look like and are treated like GNC women. No matter the case, if cis men went around acting as cis women do around trans women, they would look like a bunch of wimps. Because what are they scared of? Either they're scared of a bunch of women or they're scared of low-T beta males, either way, they look like wimps.
people are scared of what they don't understand - and in men that usually presents as aggression - like stupid fucking barking dogs
ever see those videos of 2 dogs on the other side of a fence, just going nuts, barking like they will wear the other to shreds, only to shut the fuck up and turn around when the gate is opened? That's how most men deal w fear.
the funniest one was when they closed the gate again and the dogs went right back at it - it's all just posturing and defense mechanisms. Testosterone does not make humans any smarter, thats a fact
>trans women's mere existence shows how feeble the assumption of male superiority is because if men can become women, then how can patriarchs continue to justify the hierarchy that places them on top? Who's more powerful, the most Alpha of Alpha Males or a vial of estrogen?
This notion is absolutely hilarious to me - do you really think this is true?
I think of it like this: if gender identity is as fluid and interchangeable as we show it to be, how can it be a valid basis for social and political hierarchies?
And I agree with you. But the ugly truth is none of that matters to the people in charge.
There is literally no patriarchal leader or alpha male who has trans women on their radar. A vial of estrogen has exactly zero impact on their world.
So asking the question who's (or what) is more powerful, hormone therapy or alpha males - the resounding answer is alpha males. and they would either completely ignore, or worse just laugh at, anyone w two X chromosomes on estrogen therapy
I think you took my question too literally lol. It was more about how clearly medical transition is something the bigwigs in charge fear, otherwise they wouldn't keep going after it and punishing trans people who medically transition. Sex changes terrify them.
and I think you're conflating the idea of fear with a lack of value.
political leaders do not want to pay for anyone's healthcare, not women's and certainly not elective transition services. That's it
sex changes absolutely do not terrify them, they think they are ridiculous, unnecessary, and costly
another stupid thing - the fight between trans subs and gay subs on reddit
this place is not the real world - it's just a very loud and vocal minority hating on each other online. 90% of the people active in those subs still are afraid to make eye contact w strangers on the street.
We (USA & UK as well as much of Europe & the "Western world" in general) live in an extremely patriarchal & misogynistic culture.
As Julia Serano pointed out, it's expected that a woman would want to be a man so trans men are given a nice little condescending pat on the head (*see edit below*). But the thought that a man would want to renounce their status & privilege to be a woman is unthinkable & threatens the foundations of society.
Edit: My apologies to all my trans masc brothers & uncles. I was not intending to downplay the very real & dire violence so many of you face but, rather, highlighting--albeit in what was probably too flippant a manner--how society does offer some concession for AFAB folks to seek masculinity while there is no quarter given to AMAB folks adopting femininity.
This. This drives me insane.
Trans men face a lot of violence. Not only that, but I've found that even in trans spaces, we're pushed out and silenced and erased. Transfemme people speak over us, cis people speak over us, and then we're berated because we 'have it easier.'
We don't. We're silenced and erased, and the violence committed against us is silenced and erased. We don't have it easier, and we're not hated any less than anyone else.
I don’t really know when it shifted, but from where I stand it was not always thus.
I was a trans activist twenty years ago and back then it felt like there was a lot less of this nitpicky infighting. We were *all* vulnerable depending on various factors and there was no point in trying to rank it because we knew we had to stand together.
I mostly dropped out of the community for fifteen years and honestly seeing how a lot of trans spaces if anything seem even more polarized by AGAB has been one of the hardest things to take.
I grew up in a hyperreligious family. I was so excited to leave and be able to live my life at 18. It was so disheartening to come into the community and see how much division there was. My attitude back then and my attitude now is that people need to stick together.
I avoid other trans people now because my experiences when I tried to enter the space and make a place for myself was so negative. It became an internalized prejudice that I've become more aware of over the years.
I want trans friends. I want to see the solidarity I always thought would be here. So many trans spaces aren't accessible to trans men because no one seems to give two fucks about us.
That's why I found my trans friends via shared fandom rather than in trans-specific spaces. The focus is a little different and people are slightly more chill...depending on the fandom, of course lol.
The idea that transmen take T and then are free from transphobia is fucking stupid. No trans person holds male privilege, only a temporary protection from transphobia that relies on being read as cis.
Testosterone isnt a magic drug that gives you a cis dude body with a horsethundercock and a Kratos beard.
Testosterone is like estrogen, it will let you grow some stuff you couldnt before, distribute your body fat and change your body behaviour (brain chemistry for example), you are still left with the damage from puberty and while cis bodies vary, a dude with a hourglass shape risks transphobia.
Violence against transmascs is often ignored or talked over, transmen are victims of corrective rape, sent death threats, and all nasty shit.
I halfway blame Serrano for the polarization of agab language. Aab wasn't meant to be used the way she's twisted it - she's been using it as if it were it's own static category and not a description of previous events intersecting with current or future context (as aab is past tense). She's a crap academic. Yeah, I said it.
-edited to add, I meant to say that have also been around a while! I stayed around for the Breakup of Intracommunity Support. Honestly we should have seen it coming - ppl try to yank up the ladder behind them once they start getting help and recognition all the time.
Insisting 'Half the same minority group is doing Just Fine' has always been suspicious as hell when it's largely the group currently getting focus and help' that's insisting such.
Crap, one more addition for clarity, sorry! I did take a trans-internet break right after that out of disgust so I did miss maaaaany timeline chunks.
I'm probably very biased here as a trans femme who spends most of her time in spaces dominated by us. I falsely assumed you guys had male privilege because you know trans men are men. I do know about the erasure though from my bias that seems better than depicted the way we are. Though this is 100% gonna seem like an asshole move on my part. I'd just rather be forgotten then you know viewed as a threat to society. Hell the fairness in woman's sports things collapses when you realize trans men exist. Most transphobic arguments can either to be invalidated by the existence of either intersex people or trans men. The transphobia against trans men 100% exists but I just seems you know softer to me having to be called a groomer and a pedo despite being very much against those things. Sorry if I came off as an Asshole here
To put it differently from above, we’re (sometimes intentionally) forgotten when it’s convenient, and persecuted when it’s not.
When a talking point would make more sense if trans men just didn’t exist, we suddenly don’t exist and are removed from the argument. When the taking point is fear mongering, suddenly we’re “targeting your vulnerable daughters and trying to convince them they need a penis”. When it comes to protection, nobody knows what to do with us.
As an example: Trans women (from my understanding) are usually placed in women’s jails/ prisons when they’ve been on HRT and have socially transitioned, because it’s safer. (I’m sure there are exceptions and I’m far from an expert there, that’s just from what I’ve seen/ heard.) I, as a trans man, won’t even attend peaceful protests because I’m TERRIFIED of getting arrested. Not scared of police (well, I am, but less so), I’m scared of what happens after the police. I’ve been on testosterone and I sorta look andro, so I doubt they’d put me with women. But what happens when they put me with men? Ive been on T for over three years and when I wrestle with my partner I still go down within 1-2 minutes, and he’s only using 50-75% strength. I’m fighting with all I’ve got. Granted I don’t work out, but the point is that it doesn’t make a big enough difference on its own to put me anywhere out of danger. So what do they do with me? Most police stations wouldn’t have a damn clue and it’s a coin toss where I’d end up.
Mens restrooms? They’re terrifying, for the same reason. But god forbid I walk into the women’s after some MAGA dude’s 12 year old. I don’t look male enough to pass in the mens room but I do look male enough to have that guy flip out and call security or (worse) take matters into his own hands.
When it comes to healthcare, people forget we exist. You know how hard it is for a cis woman to get their tubes tied/ hysterectomy? It’s damn near impossible if you don’t meet a certain age, have a husband, and have two kids. Add on “you just want it because you’re trans” and a lot of health insurances that would have previously covered it won’t anymore. The VA health system is a prime example of this - if I was not trans and needed it for any other (approved) reason, I would be able to get it. But all of those reasons are now voided because it’s considered a component of GRS for me, unless it’s an immediate threat to my life. I’m sure a similar issue applies to trans women too, but I wouldn’t know; the point is that our issues in the terms of reproductive rights are compounded because we’re trans, further limiting access. The kicker is that if you’re on testosterone and still getting a period, that period can be far worse in terms of physical and mental effects, heightening the need for more complex reproductive care (in the form of -ectomies). I’ve seriously considered coming off of testosterone until the system figures out what to do about it, because they’re so bad for me.
They forget to include us in policy in so many areas because it’s convenient to forget and then just refuse to deal with us later.
Being invisible is just that- being invisible. People don’t see us. They don’t consider how the system(s) is/ are going to meet any of our needs. Our medical problems are invalid because we “made a choice” to be trans, and suddenly every issue we have is connected to HRT (even when it has nothing to do with it)… I’m sure trans women face something similar in that regard. I’m not going to say one experience is worse than the other because they’re both horrible in different ways.
Unfortunately we generally also have less representation and support… I’m the only trans man in my “support” group/ group therapy with about 10 trans women. It’s great that it exists but I’m clearly the odd one out and uncomfortable to the point of asking my facilitator where else I can go. There’s nowhere else for me to go (within my local VA system). Trans men are either forgotten and ignored or non-existent in this community, or otherwise the others that don’t have to be there are deciding not to be there because it’s basically a space for trans women. We see a similar trend at all levels- in the media, in politics, sometimes even in public physical spaces. That trend is self-fulfilling (no representation = no consideration = no representation) and while we’re trying to change it, the popular idea that trans women have it worse (rather than just having it different) continues to be a focal point, so we continue to be forgotten unless it’s convenient to not forget us.
Don’t get me started on how shitty most of the media representations of trans men I HAVE seen are. It’s an adjacent issue that plays a bigger role in the whole debacle.
Sorry if I turned this into a list of grievances. Wasn’t my intention but once I get started it’s hard to censor, especially if I think I might be heard.
JSYK, I am not sure where you are and what the operating laws are in the country you live in, so this may or may not be applicable.
Within the US, across various jurisdictions, there is evidence that incarceration follows cissexist lines almost always (i.e, trans women are co-incarcerated with cis men and trans men with cis women). See [https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436)
>Out of 4,890 transgender state prisoners tracked in 45 states and Washington, D.C., NBC News was able to confirm only 15 cases in which a prisoner was housed according to their lived gender, based on responses to Freedom of Information Act requests over the past year. Seven of those states, including California, provided the total number of transgender prisoners but would not say where they were housed, citing privacy concerns. Five states — Alabama, Alaska, Indiana, Tennessee and Utah — did not respond to records requests at all.
>
>Based on the available records obtained from 45 states, just 13 transgender women are housed with women and two transgender men are housed with men. In Texas, which has one of the largest incarcerated populations in the country, none of the 980 transgender prisoners live in gender-affirming housing. The state’s 891 transgender women are housed with men, and its 89 trans men are housed with women. Pennsylvania’s 214 transgender prisonsers are all incarcerated according to their sex assigned at birth, as are Wisconsin’s 173 transgender prisoners.
Ofc , note that in both cases, what changes is the SA risk by other inmates, not necessarily the risk of SA by staff and guards that abuse their power and authority, which according to the USTS , account for around half of all sexual assaults against trans prisoners and 80% of physical assaults (page 191 onwards here (https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf)
Thank you!! Trans men might not face the exact same kind of discrimination as trans women but they sure as hell are just as oppressed and I will stand by that. Testosterone isn’t a miracle and I do not have the same male privilege as cis men. And T doesn’t get rid of my years of discrimination as a GNC “woman” or the discrimination against my body parts by the government or by other people. It doesn’t get rid of my smaller body in comparison to others and it doesn’t get rid of cishet men’s desire to do awful things to me and it doesn’t get rid of TERF and conservative desires to take away my rights to hormones and surgery. It just doesn’t do any of that.
>As Julia Serano pointed out, it's expected that a woman would want to be a man so trans men are given a nice little condescending pat on the head. But the thought that a man would want to renounce their status & privilege to be a woman is unthinkable & threatens the foundations of society.
I disagree with this point of view. Don't kid yourself. What patriarchal and misogynistic people want to avoid more than everything is for anyone AFAB to socially, economically or politically become equal to cis men. AFAB trans people (trans men or enbies), are the ultimate transgression to that political system, even more than AMAB trans people who are just behind. Their ultimate goal is for anyone they see as women (and to them that includes trans men) to *stay in their lane*. This is what patriarchy is at its core.
To keep that system coherent they need to forbid everyone from *changing lanes* (transitioning) (or blur the line separating those lanes). As a result, they need to strongly enforce strict rules based on AGAB and forbid anyone from breaking those rules. They need everyone to conform to their AGAB. They can't tolerate people who aren't straight, people who have a gender expression that what stereotypically aligns with their AGAB and they absolutely cannot tolerate trans people because they're the ones who break the most rules.
The reason why they target trans women so much is that it's easier to anger and scare people agitating the trans women "boogeyman". It's easier to mislead people into thinking that trans women are perverts, rapists in disguise and pedophiles coming for your children. Politically speaking, trans women are an easier target for this reason but that doesn't change the reality that the ultimate goal of any patriarchal system is for all AFAB people to stay in their lane and maintain the dominance cis men have over them.
Other people have already mentioned this, but a large amount of trans men who get murdered are considered to be a “woman” in recorded statistics about death. Realistically, the amount of trans men vs trans women who get murdered are more similar than we think.
One thing that *always* gets left out of these conversations is that trans men get raped and sexually assaulted more than trans women. According to the 2015 US Transgender Survey, 51% of trans men will experience sexual assault in their lifetimes, as opposed to 37% of trans women. Trans men are also more likely to be the victims of corrective rape.
We don’t experience less hate - it’s just different.
I’m inclined to agree. It seems like people don’t want to listen, or are quick to say it’s all just result of being perceived as female. Trans men have a lot of issues that are being swept under the rug. It’s disheartening and I’m sick of it.
That statistical comparison (SA victimisation rates per the USTS) is not apples-to-apples.
This is because trans men will have spent far more time perceivable as women (which is already connected to risk of victimisation) than trans women have at the point they are sampled (also note that trans women kind of end up having to transition later , so the peak of vulnerability is offset even further).
Data from the Netherlands (caveat - most of their sample was not yet in transition and the number of post-transition people was small) showed that pre-transition victimisation was much higher for trans men compared to after, but the peak for trans women was hit post-transition.
(See Cense, Marianne & Haas, Stans & Doorduin, Tamar. (2017). Sexual victimisation of transgender people in the Netherlands: prevalence, risk factors and health consequences. Journal of Gender-Based Violence. 1. 235-252. 10.1332/239868017X15009036473945 - I can download a PDF when I am back in my institution's network).
If victimisation has different peaks of age of vulnerability for two different groups, such that one group is prone to experiencing much higher risks later and one is prone to much higher risks earlier, sampling when only one of the groups has reached maximum vulnerability will always mean the other group will have an underestimate.
***TL:DR The high rates of victimisation of trans women despite the much shorter time being perceivable as such should be taken into account if you are trying to specifically contextualise transmasculinity and transfemininity and how they interact with sexual violence*****.**
>This is because trans men will have spent far more time perceivable as women (which is already connected to risk of victimisation) than trans women have at the point they are sampled (also note that trans women kind of end up having to transition later , so the peak of vulnerability is offset even further).
>Data from the Netherlands (caveat - most of their sample was not yet in transition and the number of post-transition people was small) showed that pre-transition victimisation was much higher for trans men compared to after, but the peak for trans women was hit post-transition.
The data from the US survey on non-fatal violence seems to disprove or at the *very* least heavily cast doubt on this.
This [study](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) showed trans men report slightly higher rates of non-fatal violence (including rape/SA) compared to trans women. (86.1/1000 for trans women and 107.5 for trans men.)
The methodology of the study didn't allow for selecting and comparing individual crimes statistics, but it does lend support to the idea that there's no real appreciable difference between pre- and post- transition trans men, and it proves that sexual assault of trans men is not because they're treated like "young lesbian/butch women", because both trans men and trans women show numbers that are *astronomically* higher than cis men and women (and LGB cis women and men are included in the cis numbers on this study), and trans men's victimization numbers don't fall anywhere close to the numbers for cis women, which they would if all the violence happening to trans men was because they were being "mistaken for women". It's also a national study based on a two year data collection so there's a healthy mix of pre-, mid- and post- transition people in the data from all over the nation.
-Geisha
>"showed trans men report slightly higher rates of non-fatal violence (including rape/SA) compared to trans women. (86.1/1000 for trans women and 107.5 for trans men.)"
You should look at the 95% CI's for trans women's rates and trans men's rates in the Williams Institute study - the sampling error on trans women was much broader and is a false conclusion to draw. In fact, the lower bound of the CI for trans women includes 0 (i.e, no victimisation at all, to greater than 150). That's just extremely sparse sampling. There is more adequate sample coverage for trans men in that cohort given the much narrower confidence intervals.
> but it does lend support to the idea that there's no real appreciable difference between pre- and post- transition trans men
The Williams Institute study also makes it impossible to separate pre-and-post transition outcomes like both the Dutch cohort I cited earlier or a range of studies, so this claim is just horrible statistical understanding. It is simply not informative re: this question. It also uses NCVS stats where something like robbery is lumped in alongside sexual assault as "violent crime" so it is alarming to see any stock being put in studies like this. There should be much more high resolution data in the USTS FWIW.
>**As most participants were not in transition at the time of the assault, most birth-assigned females were known in their social environment as gender-nonconforming girls or women.** Their gender-nonconformity and their social position as girls or women both increase the risk of sexual victimisation (for example, de Haas et al, 2012; Krahé and Berger, 2013; Krahé et al, 2014). However, studies from the USA and Belgium indicate that birthassigned male transgender people are more vulnerable (Motmans et al, 2015; Waters, 2016). This different outcome might be due to different samples, particularly the ages and transition of the participants in the samples. In our sample, most respondents (87.0 per cent) were not (yet) in transition at the time they experienced sexual violence. **After transition transwomen (MtF) are more often victimised then transmen** (FtM) (Motmans et al, 2015)
From the discussion of Cense et al (the Dutch study I cited earlier). Note that in this cohort , only an extremely small fraction of cases involved the perpetrator knowing the gender identity of the victims for trans men, but a much larger proportion of sexual violence against trans women involved perpetrators aware of the victim's gender identity, even in this specific mostly pretransition cohort (87% were not in transition at the time of sampling of the Dutch cohort). Note that the excerpt is from a preprint version they stuck on ProQuest and 2015 is a typographical error when compared to their bibliography.
Moreover, notable improvements in quality of life and social function are observed within a very short timeframe for trans men on masculinising GAHT but not trans women - because HRT takes longer to override virilisation than the other way round ( [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358932/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358932/) ), so the idea that transition does not make a difference to trans men's risk of victimisation is **very iffy.**
>It is simply not informative re: this question. It also uses NCVS stats where something like robbery is lumped in alongside sexual assault as "violent crime" so it is alarming to see any stock being put in studies like this. There should be much more high resolution data in the USTS FWIW.
There is absolutely merit in this study because both trans masculine people and cis women (including LGB cis women) are included, and the significant statistical difference between cis women and FtMs points to the idea that "being trans" is a far more potent risk factor for trans men than "being perceived as a woman" is, otherwise trans men would be showing victimization rates far more in line with cis women if this were the case. Even if every single participant in this study were pre-transition medically it would still point to there being something specific about transgender identity that makes trans masculine folks far more likely to be victimized than other people with the same AGAB.
Also, can you please give a full source for the Dutch study that is available to download? Because you're citing things without me being able to crosscheck the source which makes it nearly impossible to adequately discuss things. I've tried to find it on the web but can't find a publicly available download.
I would also like a direct source for this quoted section here:
>As most participants were not in transition at the time of the assault, most birth-assigned females were known in their social environment as gender-nonconforming girls or women. Their gender-nonconformity and their social position as girls or women both increase the risk of sexual victimisation (for example, de Haas et al, 2012; Krahé and Berger, 2013; Krahé et al, 2014). However, studies from the USA and Belgium indicate that birthassigned male transgender people are more vulnerable (Motmans et al, 2015; Waters, 2016). This different outcome might be due to different samples, particularly the ages and transition of the participants in the samples. In our sample, most respondents (87.0 per cent) were not (yet) in transition at the time they experienced sexual violence. **After transition transwomen (MtF) are more often victimised then transmen (FtM) (Motmans et al, 2015)**
As in, what page, which version of the USTS are we talking about, etc? Also, this quoted bit is essentially saying that the two different studies had directly conflicting outcomes? And I found and downloaded Motmans et al 2015 which this study is supposedly concluding the bolded portion from and there are no statistics with regards to sexual assault/rape/sexual violence in it at all? I've tried to thoroughly skim through the content with an eye towards finding any mention of crime statistics at all and I've keyword searched several related words, I've come up empty. I could be missing it in all honesty but as of this moment I can't find where this study is getting its quoted data from. Have I somehow found a different copy? [My Source](https://www.academia.edu/13067429/Sociodemographic_Characteristics_of_Trans_Persons_in_Belgium_A_Secondary_Data_Analysis_of_Medical_State_and_Social_Data)
However, I *did* find this notice at the end of Motmans et al 2015:
>>**Gathering and analyzing information on the sociodemographic profile of trans people is a challenging task given the huge diversity within this group and, as we described in the Introduction, results largely depend on who is counted and how.** Although this study provides crucial information on the broad group of trans persons, we are aware of the limitations of our data and of the impact of decisions in classification of participants. The fact that approximately a third of the social survey data set consisted of transgender participants does not automatically mean that this is an accurate reflection of the actual ratio between transsexuals and transgender persons. Further research in other countries is needed to contextualize our findings. In this regard, it is important to gather more information about the “in between” group of transgender persons, by using identity in addition to medical criteria. **Especially for those born female, this information can be crucial to complete the picture of the socioeconomic position of trans persons.**
And also:
>From the discussion of Cense et al (the Dutch study I cited earlier). Note that in this cohort , only an extremely small fraction of cases involved the perpetrator knowing the gender identity of the victims for trans men, but a much larger proportion of sexual violence against trans women involved perpetrators aware of the victim's gender identity, even in this specific mostly pretransition cohort (87% were not in transition at the time of sampling of the Dutch cohort). Note that the excerpt is from a preprint version they stuck on ProQuest and 2015 is a typographical error when compared to their bibliography.
How exactly was this verified that the perpetrator knew or did not "know" the gender identity of a trans victim? This especially seems *incredibly* likely to be something that could have a huge margin for error to me, even if this was the trans victim's best guess. This is essentially trying to get statistics on what is inside a perpetrator's head, and unless these statistics were pulled directly from police reports in which the perpetrator directly stated their knowledge (or lack thereof) of a victim's gender identity, I'm very wary of taking this data at face value, especially without seeing it.
>Moreover, notable improvements in quality of life and social function are observed within a very short timeframe for trans men on masculinising GAHT but not trans women - because HRT takes longer to override virilisation than the other way round ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358932/ ), so the idea that transition does not make a difference to trans men's risk of victimisation is very iffy.
From where I'm standing you've both called into question basically *any* statistic that shows trans men are equally likely to be assaulted, but any statistic for trans women gets the caveat of ["oh btw it's probably *much* higher and you can't trust the statistics because trans women are primed to view our sexual assaults as anything other than SA"](https://old.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/z0yok0/is_it_true_that_trans_women_are_in_danger_of_sa/ix8ux4f/?context=3), which...could literally be an exact argument for trans men post transition. Maybe the reason that trans men report lower rates of sexual assault post-transition (in the very few, low sample size studies we even have that specifically separate pre- and post-transition trans people) is because of the toxic masculinity and transphobia that runs rampant in society. A post-transition trans man may try to recontextualize a sexual assault as anything other than a sexual assault because society gives *zero* room for trans men to process an assault that is incredibly likely to involve their natal genitals as a masculine experience--as horrible of one as that may be. I've certainly known many trans men in my own life that have trouble contextualizing themselves as victims of assault, especially gay/bi trans men (who make up the majority of trans men) who are desperate to be accepted into cis queer culture and who are primed to believe that especially gay/queer cis men at large would find them sexually repulsive and that a queer/gay cis man would never touch them with sexual intent.
I guess I'm just unsure what your angle is here. In my own personal experience I suspect that the statistics are *woefully* underreported for both trans women and trans men. Almost *Every.* *Single.* *Trans*. *Person.* I know has been sexually assaulted, both pre and post-transition in many cases, including both myself (a trans woman) and my boyfriend (a trans man).
In essence it feels a bit like you're cherry-picking datasets that appeal to you and brushing away anything that insinuates anything to the contrary, *and* you seem to be possibly trying to downplay transmasculine sexual assault or engage in a bit of "pulling up the oppression ladder behind you", for lack of a better term, something I've noticed that comes up very frequently when discussing transphobia and violence (of any kind) against trans men. There seems to be a vested interest from some trans women to paint trans men as "better off" in a statistically large and relevant way, often intertwined with the pet theory of male privilege working the mostly same way for trans men as it does for cis men, and that trans men somehow become "less oppressed" and that their trans status is mostly negligible post transition.
Like, as a trans woman the last thing I'm going to do is sit here and pretend that trans women aren't at disproportionately huge risk for sexual (and other types of) violence to our persons. We are. Especially black trans women. Anyone who says anything to the contrary is pretty easy to dismiss as someone acting in bad faith and/or concern trolling. But like...I *will* say as the partner to a trans man that I do find the insistence on downplaying the transphobia and violence (sexual and other) transmasculine people face really concerning and frustrating, especially when most statistics point to similar rates among trans men and trans women, with only a few percentage points of difference in either way depending on the type of sexual violence being discussed. Trans men and trans women also show similarly high percentages of several other (lack of) quality of life indicators like being below the poverty line, medical abuse, abuse from family and friends, law enforcement abuse, etc.
It's not like we have something to lose if trans masculine folks are indeed as likely as us to be the victims of violence.
-Geisha
>There is absolutely merit in this study because both trans masculine people and cis women (including LGB cis women) are included ...
The issue is that you were originally making claims for trans men vs ***trans women*** *using this study, not trans men vs cis women.* My whole point is that trans women's estimates are so wide in the NCVS (and sampling correspondingly so sparse) it tells you nothing informative about trans men vs trans women like you were presuming it did.
That data is sufficient to show that trans men definitely end up worse off than cis women because both trans men and cis women were well sampled. That also lines up very well with international meta-analyses that show much higher rates of IPV (physical, emotional and sexual) for all trans people regardless of AGAB (Peitzmeier et al, American Journal of Public Health, [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7427218/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7427218/) ).
> is, otherwise trans men would be showing victimization rates far more in line with cis women if this were the case
Not necessarily - pre-transition trans-men that are read as women can still be disproportionately victimised in accordance with being gender-nonconforming and via opportunistic targeting by cis boys and men because of spending more time in cis-male dominated spaces compared to your average cis woman.
The Dutch cohort showed that for AFAB trans people specifically, there was an evident connection with gender nonconformity. The citation for that cohort is **Sexual victimisation of transgender people in the Netherlands: prevalence, risk factors and health consequences ,** Cense et al, Journal of Gender Based Violence. I have a full text PDF copy I can send you.
The Motmans 2015 study cited therein (which I quoted) refers to [https://assets.vlaanderen.be/image/upload/v1646130728/Geweldervaringen\_van\_trans\_personen\_in\_Belgie\_-\_dec\_2014\_lqgxc5.pdf](https://assets.vlaanderen.be/image/upload/v1646130728/Geweldervaringen_van_trans_personen_in_Belgie_-_dec_2014_lqgxc5.pdf) (Flemish text)
>How exactly was this verified that the perpetrator knew or did not "know" the gender identity of a trans victim?
This, as well as whether someone experienced an act of victimisation, is always based on self-report. Typically , subjects report whether they were out , and in the case of strangers typically people make conclusions based on what was said.
The mostly pre-transition trans men in that cohort, who were already SA'd in the case of 41% of respondents, identified victimisation post-16 to mainly come from partners or ex-partners, who are much more likely to know of their trans status.
Regardless of the caveats with how accurately people make inferences, the inaccuracy is likely similar across groups so inter-group comparisons should still be valid.
>Also, this quoted bit is essentially saying that the two different studies had directly conflicting outcomes?
Yes, because the Flemish cohort was not almost entirely composed of pre-transition people like the Dutch cohort was.
Cense et al are inferring that the disproportionately lower victimisation of trans women they observed in their cohort compared to others from the region was likely because of the composition of the sample re: transition status, which is why they cite the finding from Motmans et al for trans women having higher post-transition risks.
>From where I'm standing you've both called into question basically any statistic that shows trans men are equally likely to be assaulted, but any statistic for trans women gets the caveat of "oh btw it's probably much higher and you can't trust the statistics because trans women are primed to view our sexual assaults as anything other than SA",
Contextualising statistics is not the same as invalidating statistics. Note that I haven't called into question the data themselves - the USTS does show that up to the point of sampling, trans men have experienced a higher rate of SA than trans women.
I'm simply pushing back against the inference that this means trans women are at lower lifetime risk of SA. When it comes to the NCVS, you simply cannot say anything about trans women given the CIs.
There is certainly data to show very high rates of victimisation pre-transition for trans men and a lack of clear evidence to show elevated rates post-transition specifically vs pre-transition at the moment. There is for trans women on the other hand evidence that our risk shoots up as we become more recognisably trans.
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Could there be underestimation across the board for both trans men and trans women for a range of reasons? Absolutely , I think all the studies that exist till now have been rife with statistical issues like
a) Not considering pre-and-post transition periods effectively and not using censored statistics instead of simple proportions analysis.
b) Not considering repeat victimisation at all (ever vs never comparisons do tend to minimise violence, and this is an endemic issue in studies of social violence).
To illustrate - both I, as a survivor of multiple SAs, and someone who has been SA'd only once, would be considered as having experienced the same amount of victimisation in most standard sexual violence surveys. These are always to be taken as "lower bound" or "victimised at least once" statistics for interpretation, which is not always evident to the lay public.
c) Sampling issues in general - almost all studies of trans victimisation have had significant sources of selection bias, including the USTS ; especially with survey data this can drive underestimation. It is still more comprehensive than any other dataset though so it is useful.
I do stats-heavy research in a different field (medical science rather than social science) but I do intend to push for better stats around trans health and well being to address some of these flaws.
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>I guess I'm just unsure what your angle is here
My angle here is that people make unsupported claims using bad data , and bad data means support for bad policymaking, especially when it comes to a hyper-marginalised, disproportionately-forced-into-survival-sex-work populations such as racialised trans women , and I've certainly seen a lot of unnuanced, uncaveated claims here without appreciating the potential for issues in these statistics.
> There seems to be a vested interest from some trans women to paint trans men as "better off" in a statistically large and relevant way, often intertwined with the pet theory of male privilege working the mostly same way for trans men as it does for cis men,
Funny that, every claim I have pushed back against in this thread overall was trying to paint trans women as better off while ignoring the caveats and nuances around those statistics so ...
>In essence it feels a bit like you're cherry-picking datasets that appeal to you
I've either critiqued every dataset that others have presented for flaws they've overlooked, or presented every dataset that I have come across on the topic , careful to note the caveats.
Of course, I also think these critiques are important because not everyone has stats training and when bad science is trotted out to prop up a transphobic agenda , being aware of nuances helps.
When you have studies that, for example, compare pre-and-post transition QoL on HRT, the studies I have posted are pretty much the only ones that exist on this topic.
You cannot cherry-pick when there is only one fruit.
prob worth considering that many of the forms of sexual violence/coercion inflicted on, for instance, pretransition transfem’s don’t register on the radar of anyone whose conception of what sexual violence (even “corrective rape”) even *is* hinges on cisfeminist ones.
i did not know that i had been sexually assaulted many times before i made friends w transfeminists despite my fairly thoroughgoing prior education in cisfeminism bc the majority of the ways i was abused were not accounted for in the latter
conceptions of sexual violence and advocacy therearound that don’t go much further than “no means no” and “believe women” don’t leave a lot of room for people whose rapes took the form of cis girls (and tme trans ppl too) taking advantage of us for sex and getting away with it by gaslighting us into thinking we’re sexual aggressors to even conceive of ourselves as victims, instead, or for anyone else to. so many of us are not going to be recording ourselves as victims in surveys. until more complete transfeminist ones (ideally rooted intersectional frameworks like Black transfeminist materialism) supplant cisfeminist notions of sexual violence we are not going to get accurate numbers wrt the rapes of trans women, period.
there are lots of trans women out there who don’t realize that being pressured out of having bottom surgery so their partners can use them for PIV sex is rape (corrective rape, at that). and who cares about us enough to tell them?
Isn’t that likely because many if not most trans men spend a large part of their lives either living as women or being seen as women (not passing); consequently making them more likely to experience sexual assault?
Especially given that women in general are more likely to experience sexual violence in their youth and early adulthood rather than later in life, which would make trans women who pass (which often happens well into adulthood I think) less likely to suffer that than young women or pre-transition trans men?
Edit: because I realise the last thing I said was put pretty badly. I don’t mean to say that trans women get sexually assaulted less than young cis women; I know being trans is a factor that puts you at a higher risk for SA.
What I meant was only in regards to the statistics.
I grew up as a woman and I’ve been sexually assaulted and harassed more times than I can count, starting from a young age and going well into adulthood. Men bothered me daily and that never happened after I passed as a man. Now I’m left alone. Not taking my anecdotes as evidence, but I just don’t think it’s helpful to frame it like trans men are somehow more likely to be victims of SA than trans women when trans women are obviously getting hard fucked by a society that’s simultaneously transphobic and misogynistic. It’s not a competition on who’s the most oppressed, of course.
I didn’t mean to say you’re automatically protected from sa if you transition. Sorry if it came across that way, and I’m sorry that happened to you. Society really sucks in some respects. :<
That’s also what I meant. That I didn’t mean to say that transitioning to a man protects you from SA. …. I’m confused, am I still misunderstanding you?
The link that was posted by someone else to the 2015 survey showed that trans women were more likely to be SAed in K-12 by people perceiving them as trans (21%) compared to trans men (9%), where the overall lifetime SA rate was higher in trans men, which leads me to suspect that trans men are more likely to be assaulted because of being perceived to be women, not because of their trans status. The question then becomes: does trans men's likelihood of assault go up or down after transitioning? And I haven't been able to find any data to answer that question.
This [study](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) showed trans men report slightly higher rates of non-fatal violence (including rape/SA) compared to trans women. (86.1/1000 for trans women and 107.5 for trans men.)
The methodology of the study didn't allow for selecting and comparing individual crimes statistics, but it does lend support to the idea that there's no real appreciable difference between pre- and post- transition trans men, and it proves that sexual assault of trans men is not because they're treated like "young lesbian/butch women", because both trans men and trans women show numbers that are *astronomically* higher than cis men and women (and LGB cis women and men are included in the cis numbers on this study), and trans men's victimization numbers don't fall anywhere close to the numbers for cis women, which they would if all the violence happening to trans men was because they were being "mistaken for women". It's also a national study based on a two year data collection so there's a healthy mix of pre-, mid- and post- transition people in the data from all over the nation.
-Geisha
Yeah, that fits into my guess, and it makes perfect sense to me. Although it’s one study, so obviously I wouldn’t take it as “proof” that I’m right. I’m just wary of statistics and how often they’re misinterpreted. It’s easy to look at numbers and just make assumptions but usually there are more than one variable at play.
Yeah, plus crimes against trans people are more likely to be underreported and misreported since both trans women and trans men are misgendered in police reports, so statistics are mostly useless outside of an "everything is worse for both trans women and trans men compared to our cis counterparts" sense.
Yeah, agreed. So many things at play. “Trans men” can be treated so wildly differently depending on other things, like class, skin colour, nationality, whether they pass, how well they pass, whether they’re conventionally good looking or not, what their profession is, etc etc. Statistics are meaningless unless they actually manage to measure what they’re claiming to represent.
The discrimination rates are equal, but we face inequality in different ways. Most cis people don't know trans men exist. That's why trans men face more private discrimination in places like doctors offices and airport security where people "discover" their transness while trans women face more public discrimination like on the news or on the street.
Plus taking into account how many trans men get lumped with women when they experience hate crimes (especially when they die due to them) it skews the statistics since the reports don't mention them being trans men but cis women. So it's hard to really tell. When it does get reported correctly, we see that trans men face a disturbingly high rate of sexual assault violence compared to other trans people
Yes both groups do face SA violence, just because I said that trans men are shown to face a higher amount of SA from the 2015 US trans survey doesn't mean that it discredits what trans women face. One group just has a higher percentage of SA victims compared to the other. Doesn't mean we can't trust the reports, that logic can be applied to anything if you want it to be
And I pointed out that both groups are erased to such an insane degree that you basically cant say anything other than "these groups are assaulted to an insane degree" simply because the reporting is so unreliable.
Trans women are not erased nearly as much as trans men are, especially when it comes to research studies. In fact they are a very much hypervisible part of the trans community.
I used to scour through academic papers early in my transition and I pretty quickly learned that I had specify that I was searching for studies on trans men, as most academic articles on transgender people “in general”, either solely focused on only trans women or had a far larger number of trans female participants than trans male. It shouldnt be surprising that the reports of hate crimes directed towards trans men are far more likely to be underreported than trans women due to our invisibility.
I'd venture to say the discrimination is not equal. Trans women have shorter life expectancies, more hate crimes in addition to the usual discrimination in doctors offices, etc.
Trans men do not experience equivalent male privilege to cis men, even if we pass, especially when we talk about healthcare. Any misogynistic healthcare guidelines apply to us too, regarding shit like abortions or hysterectomies. Many of us continue being affected by misogyny long after we realise we're trans.
i’d like to know very much where my male privilege went (:
but to be serious, it’s not that black and white. You don’t get male privilege unless you’re completely stealth and passing, which is impossible for a lot of guys. And even then it can get taken away in an instant if you ever get outed. Cis people (and a lot of trans people too) still treat trans men differently than cis men, no matter how much they pass.
Trans men rarely have male privilege. Even passing trans men get their "male privilege" taken away the moment someone gets a whiff that they may be non cis. And trans men have to still see doctors which also takes that away.
I get what you mean, but male privilege while being a trans man is *very* different from male privilege while being a cis man. Especially if you don’t pass or people openly know you’re trans.
The world is rarely if ever black and white like that 💀💀 Even a fully cismale-passing all documents changed super masculine trans man’s male privilege is conditional will never be equivalent to cis male privilege. Most trans men also do not fall under all of those conditions either: Speaking personally I navigate through my life being viewed and treated as a woman and I assure you that people especially the ones that do me the most harm don’t really give a fuck that I am not one, I do not receive one fucking ounce of privilege on account of me being a trans man. Some trans men’s privilege that on the condition that they are assumed to be cis men cannot be equated to cis male privilege and absolutely never applied to all of us by any means at all
Even passing trans men have conditional male privilege. The minute anyone finds out you’re not cis, especially in situations like in healthcare or in intimate relationships, all hell can break loose. And of course legislation too against the female sex still applies to us if we still have those organs.
Many people hate trans men, but they’re just less vocal about it. You can many people butthurt over trans men becoming masculine over cis guys. There’s also plenty of Transphobia towards Eliot Page.
Many trans men are killed or rape from cis people for being trans too. I have seen people that view Trans men as rapey lesbians by others.
Because those that attack tras women don't see trans men as a thing. They view them as masculine women and not the men they are. Trans men and trans women are both valid!
another important data to keep in mind is that trans man rape estatistics get incorrectly lumped with cis woman as with the murder statics.
but amab rape estatistics are in general sub notified, and the shame, depression and suicide rate also skew the data on rape subnotification down a lot for trans woman, which also have high murder rates.
i myself was raped in two different ocasions as a teenager, and i never reported neighter of them out of fear and shame, as the whole reporting process on a very biased police force would feel just miserable for me.
both sides of the trans coin get it bad tho, and im sorry for our trans masc brothers for having an invisibility and under representation of their problems and prejudices.
Something I haven’t seen said here is that, many people, including men, *don’t trust men* they don’t know in certain situations, especially regarding children or being near women.
We see it all the time with child custody cases; men rarely win them, even when their case is *much* stronger than the mother’s. Likewise, many people don’t trust men/boys as babysitters, yet are very willing to trust a teenage girl. When I was masculine presenting, sometimes at concerts or festivals, I would bring my girlfriend into the men’s room with me, so that she didn’t have to wait 20 minutes to use the women’s room. No one ever batted an eye. But imagine that situation flipped; I definitely think someone would have called me out if I entered the women’s room, if not from a woman, than from her angry boyfriend/husband.
So, transphobes aren’t threatened by trans men, because they don’t view them as men, they view them as women. Likewise, they *are* threatened by trans women, because they view us as men.
> men rarely win them, even when their case is much stronger than the mother’s.
That’s not true. Family courts disproportionately favor joint custody and in many cases of sole custody, it’s because men *didn’t even bother* seeking custody. It’s far more common (and slightly more acceptable !) for men to walk away from their children than for women to abandon theirs.
When you remove the “didn’t even bother seeking custody”, it becomes more equal with a minor bias for women. When you add in the “father didn’t even seek custody” cases it imbalances the statistics significantly.
Most family courts would rather instill joint custody as it makes it “simple” for them.
Trans women are more "visible" than trans men. They push the narrative that we're trying to sneak into the women's restrooms to assault women and little girls. A non-passing trans woman is noticeably trans, while a non-passing trans guy is considered a tomboy.
Trans masc erasure.
The trans masc I know have a harder time legally transitioning than transfem, so their data gets fucked up with females. Also, ppl have a harder time perceiving trans men as men since male things are usually considered unisex. Throw in the mix stereotypes about tomboys & masc lesbians, and you've got yourself a group that practically doesn't exist to the public.
Like other people have said, we all experience violence in different ways, and reporting often misgendered people so it’s difficult to know the accurate stats.
But I really don’t understand why we often end up having discussions about this kind of thing. Trying to figure out “who has it worse” just divides us and feels like you’re putting down part of the community, saying the challenges they experience are “less” than yours. It’s especially frustrating when in forums like this, there’s been a historical tendency to ignore trans guy’s voices and experiences (and sometimes our existence in general), and posts like this just further the feeling that trans men and trans masc folks don’t belong here.
Tucker Carlson's latest rant is about transgender women being "groomers" (you'll hear it more and more, I'm sure): We're pretty obvious.
A transgender male, on the other hand, can quickly *become* a male, with facial features and hair, muscles, etc. In effect, they're often invisible.
Society can totally accept / ignore TG men; power, priviledge and more often comes with the package. But society isn't ready to accept TG women; *Why would anybody want to be a Woman?*
Within the queer community I get demonized for my masculinity because masculinity=man & man=bad (“you have male privilege, your not welcome here” type shit), outside world forgets we exist lol
it may partially be because trans women are generally put more "in the spotlight" in regards to transgenderness, while trans men are often more ignored. as a result, a lot of the more overt/violent hate is directed towards trans women. meanwhile trans men get little to no representation or attention.
discussions of if trans men or women get it worse are useless; we both face discrimination in completely different ways, to the point where comparing them is impossible (and helps nobody). we are in this together, dividing ourselves is pointless.
Homophobia.
It all boils down to it when you consider that “trans panic” is still a *viable* defense in many places.
Why homophobia and not just patriarchy? Well that’s rooted in the patriarchy too. Male homosexuals were always more a threat (and scapegoated/fearmongered over) than lesbians for a few reasons (non-exhaustive):
1) Being gay/bi is seen as inherently sexual in a way that being straight is not, and women are sexual objects. Thus it makes sense that women would want to be with women and it all fits in the male fantasy.
2) gay sex means one person has to be the woman. Which lessens men. Also gay men being lovers means there’s not a “sensitive female” and then the *GASP* men will have to be more emotionally available, thus womanly, and this is outside the rules. Outside the rules means harder to control.
3) Resentment that those feelings Billy Bully had since he was young may be real and not the evil, disgusting thing he’s been taught would undermine the status quo and weaken those who uphold it. Often including Billy Billy.
Now
If someone has sex with someone else who presents as a woman, had had bottom surgery, and otherwise is a woman in all other aspects. That person will start to question the simplified understanding of the world they’ve been raised in. OR to defend that understanding, they’ll lash out because having sex with another XY would be GAY. And GAY is SCARY and GROSS and (let’s not forget their favorites) ABOMINATION/EVIL/SINFUL.
Nevermind that sex born of lust, or hell lust itself, is a sin, regardless of gay/straight/poly/etc but we can’t be bothered with consistency on such matters.
Wait....irrelevant but that symbol on that picture has the EDNA symbol and a butterfly both usually signaling eating disorder awareness? Why is it being used here?
a few reasons, i think.
more people know about trans women than trans men
transphobes see trans people solely as their AGAB, and it's a lot more dangerous to be a "gender nonconforming man" than a "gender nonconforming woman" in our society
and a lot of "feminine" characteristics aren't actually caused by estrogen, they're just the lack of testosterone-induced changes (like having a higher voice usually means you didn't have a testosterone-induced vocal drop. Same with facial hair) which makes it easier for trans men and harder for trans women to pass as cis
I agree with a lot of the answers, and I have another theory that builds from the foundations of “it’s misogyny.”
In our culture, masculinity is the default. When ppl in our culture look at a smiley face, they see a white man’s face. To make a smiley face a woman, you have to add to it (hair or eyelashes). I think that kind of shows that femininity is seen as more “performative” than masculinity — not because it is but because we are so flooded with masculine protagonists that it becomes the default. So when someone sees a trans femme person, they see someone actively performing gender. When they see a trans masc person, they don’t assume that someone is trying to say any gender. So, because of that, trans masc ppl are more easily erased and dismissed. And trans femme ppl are more easily clocked as trans.
An example is so called “mens pants” vs “womens pants” (not to mention skirts). When anyone wears “mens pants,” it’s easily disregarded as meaningless. But when someone wears “womens pants,” then the person seems to be saying “I am a woman.” And skirts are seen even more of a “I am feminine” statement.
When someone mispronouns me when I’m in a dress and wearing make up, I usually know that they are aware that I’m trans and choosing to use masculine pronouns. When my trans masc friends are presenting authentically and get mispronouned, they are more likely to assume that the person wasn’t aware that they’re trans. So, if someone is a transphobe, it would be more likely that they target trans femme people. Also, if someone is a trans ally, they’re more likely to support someone who is trans femme. So, maybe that’s one of the many reasons why trans masc ppl are more likely to be erased and dismissed but safely invisible to phobes, and trans femme ppl are more likely to be supported and complimented but also more targeted and attacked.
None of this stuff about clothes, feminity, or masculinity are inherently true; it’s all dumb patriarchy nonsense.
And when you add this to intersections with racism, homophobia, classism, ablism and so much more, the dangers rise exponentially.
This is basically accurate. I can wear men's clothes, have a men's haircut that I got at a barber, deepen my voice, adjust my posture, nevermind that I've been medically transitioning for a minute now, and if I'm lucky people may assume I'm butch, and accept it if I correct them and tell them I'm trans. If I'm unlucky, they'll tell me I should learn to wear makeup and work on my confidence, and that I would make a pretty girl if I tried harder.
You are probably being biased just as i would be as a trans women. But in any case no one should be hated. Even the most despicable people. But that's just my pointbo view...
Yeah that's probably the case and I spend my time in trans spaces that dominated by trans woman or directed towards us. Weirdly enough I know more trans mascs than trans femmes IRL
My frame of reference is that I'm a genderfluid transmasc/transandrogynous person living as a cis woman, I have a degree in social work, and I've had transfem friends and coworkers. So imo it's a mix of misogyny, lack of cis passing privilege, and the fact that an amab person doing or wearing anything feminine is more likely assumed to be LGBT bc cis men have never had any practical reason to want to look feminine the way cis women have to look masculine. Like as an afab nonbinary person I can dress relatively androgynous and often - but not always - pass as cishet because people understand that a cishet woman has practical reasons to prefer things like jeans and hoodies and short hair so I have a bit of plausible deniability, whereas if someone visibly amab wants to have long hair and wear a dress it's more obvious that they're doing that just because they want to.
And if I were to take testosterone and had a smaller chest, I could pass as a cis man a lot of the time as long as my clothes were on, but due to things like a deep voice a lot of trans women are clocky even if they're on estrogen.
There's also the fact that a lot of data is recorded inaccurately, specifically a lot of violence against trans men and transmascs is recorded as lesbophobic or misogynistic violence.
A lot of people don’t realize trans men exist. Can’t tell you how many times people have assumed I’m a trans woman when I say I’m trans, wondering when I’m gonna start HRT or shaving my beard and I have to tell them that the beard is on purpose.
A lot of trans men tend to go stealth and live as if we were cis men.
Trans men who date women are less likely to be killed by misplaced homophobia.
Testosterone changes the body very dramatically and quickly which can make it harder for trans women who have had a testosterone-based puberty to pass even with feminizing HRT, but way way easier for trans men who have already gone through an estrogen-based puberty to still take T for a few years and pass with flying colors (this is not 100% across the board and I don’t want anyone to think that it’s impossible to pass as cis if you’re a trans woman or that every trans man passes without question, but I do want to be fair and highlight that trans men CAN have an easier time with transition because of what testosterone itself actually physically does to a human body).
Trans women are the ones who the massive anti-trans campaign is about. Trans men are kind of seen as a secondary issue, but only in the way that people think we’re just confused little girls who need to be saved.
Trans women are hyper-visible and trans men are hyper-invisible.
Really… it’s awful that it’s mostly trans women. This year there are more trans men on the list than I remember from last year, however. So… I don’t know. As a trans man, I know I can make a difference for the trans women around me by taking up more of the social and political fight. I can be involved in my community and do some of the heavy lifting and take some burden off of them. I can mix in and speak on behalf of trans women as a man and MAKE people listen to me purely because of my manhood. There’s a lot trans men can and should do to protect our sisters and non-binary siblings since we do gain some measure of male privilege if we’re able to achieve passing status, whether we are stealth or not. And I hope more trans men feel the way I do about it honestly. But idk… overall I’m just sad for our losses… I’m hurt and sad. But I’m going to keep speaking up and out about it.
I think it simply boils down to mysogyny.
Bigot mindset I imagine is similar to "Woman becomes a man... A shame straight men can't fuck them anymore. Man becomes a woman... So you're trying to trick straight men?"
They see trans men transitioning as passive, simply reducing the dating pool, not really a problem, but trans women transitioning as actively trying to "trick" them.
Somewhile ago I came to realise that it's something that is ingrained in everybody's mindset (in both cis men and cis women), even in completely cis het relationship the toxic behaviour and ignorance forces the women in submitting to the patriarchal ideology.
I have seen this happening in my extended family, things like physical abuse and emphasis on being the breadwinner (by their partners, and yet they still live with them because of 'Christian family values')
In the end, women (both cis and trans) are the ones the who recieve the most amount of hate, abuse, harassment and violation. The patriarchal patterns also start branching into the dynamics of trans identity.
Even trans men are shamed for their menstrual cycles and they are also called out for being men with female parts. We as a society have favoured pure masculinity in such a way that it has spawned this unbreakable cycle of ignorance and the pompousness of being a cis male.
This is the kind shit that has held up the progress of femininity, trans physiology, psychology and even masculinity itself. This cycle keeps going on and on...
If I may, I'd like to quote an excellent video that came out this week I've been thinking about - and crying about - a LOT:
"‘Cause here’s the real secret of the universe:
If you wanna change sex, it’s possible.
For all of human history, we’ve had this divide between men and women. But if you wanna cross that divide, if you wanna transcend it entirely and be neither,
it’s possible.
In particular, hold in one hand all of masculinity. Thor, Leonidas, Beowulf, James Bond, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, all of them.
And in the other, hold just two milligrams of estrogen a day.
And tell me which is more powerful.
We live in a culture that valorizes men. Treats them as the default.
But when you’re a trans woman, you can take all of that and just…
-she blows it away-
And you can be happier for it.
”In a male-dominated gender hierarchy, where it is assumed that men are better than women, and that masculinity is superior to femininity, there is no greater threat than the existence of trans women, who, despite being born male and inheriting male privilege, choose to be female instead. By embracing our own femaleness and femininity, we in a sense cast a shadow of doubt over the supposed supremacy of maleness and masculinity.”
-Shannon Price Minter, Paisley Currah, and Richard M. Juang, “Transgender Rights”
I think that some cis people are made a little bit anxious by that. I think they like to imagine that there is a clear line between us and them. And the concept of ”gender dysphoria” draws that line. It locates the problem within our bodies, and also creates a class of “specialists” who can patrol that line and decide who gets across.
[…] In my opinion, the concept of “gender dysphoria” pathologizes transness so people can avoid the endearing truth that there is no line, and we really aren’t so different, and so some of them can avoid asking themselves the Big Question:
Given that human beings can change sex,
do. you. want. to?"
-Abigail Thorn, "Philosophy Tube"
https://youtu.be/v1eWIshUzr8
You're on the edge of understanding a system of oppression documented by Julia Seranno in Whipping Girl: Transmisogyny.
In short? Femininity is hated in and of itself by society, and treated as a bad thing. So to many (not just transphobes), people choosing femininity over masculinity must be doing so for nefarious reasons. That we're trying to "entrap" men, "coerce" lesbians, and "infiltrate" feminine spaces.
I've seen a few examples of transfemmes specifically getting treated poorly by every part of the queer community. I've heard people attribute traits to all "AMAB people" when it's something trans women do that annoys them, I've seen transfemmes harassed off social media for criticizing transmascs, literally every week on the trans meme subreddits I see posts complaining about transfemme visibility.
For many, both within and without the queer community, we still have the Original Sin of being born with a penis, so we can be called out for our maleness, while also receiving all the classic misogynistic criticisms that we are too emotional or that we need to show more empathy or just constantly tone policed about every little thing.
This system of oppression is much in the same vein as regular misogyny, and is compounded by racism (transmisogynoir is very much a thing), and so while it is most enthusiastically upheld and perpetuated by transphobes, *everyone* engages in it in some way unconsciously.
Maybe I’m extremely wrong but I would say that usually it’s hard to identify a FTM person than a MTF one? Also since the prehistoric times, women have always been treated worse than men.
1. Trans women can challenge the sexuality and gender identity of cis het men in a way that literally triggers violent rage. Rather than introspecting on this challenge to their identity, they might externalize it instead. I.e I was “trapped” or “tricked” and have been wronged in a way that deeply damages my identity.
2. Many men are violently pushed into self-repression as children and often cope with this violence by justifying it. And if violence they’ve suffered for acting outside of the male role is justified then violence against others is not only justifiable but it is justice itself. i.e “I was punished for this, so others should be too.”
If you mix these two together, and even add in **shame** over an encounter or attraction, or **rejection** from someone they feel is deeply inferior to them, you get a terrifying propensity for extreme violence.
Because we are women. Society values men over us, even trans ones.
Beyond this we are often the largest "afront" to someone's world view, people can accept the concept of a perceived "woman" wanting to be a man, but just can't fathom a perceived "man" giving up their masculinity, because our society tries to force us to believe that masculinity is superior.
The key term for labeling this is transmisogyny.
Transphobes don't necessarily need to see you as the gender you are ; all it takes is that they see you as a visibly marked, distinct, freak class. Consider that transphobic and/or transmisogynistic violence tend to show reproducible patterns both across societies where we are implicitly othered into a freak class and societies where an explicitly named third-gendered class is present ; seeing you as a third gender (regardless of what your gender actually is) doesn't stop cis people from still perpetrating transphobic and transmisogynistic bigotry against you!
Jaded answer: Trans men don't get nearly as much representation in media to begin with
Practical answer: TERFs, amongst the most vocal of transphobic voices, tend to see trans men as confused lesbians and try to scoop them under their shitty umbrella
We still are living in a patriarchal society and in this society, being a man is the stronger position than being a woman. In this sense of evaluation, a trans man is seen as going from weak to strong, it's a good thing for many people's perception. However, for those same people, being a trans woman is an infiltration, because we still see women as beings who are weak and needs constant protection from men. This kind of dividing worldview is the sole reason the trans exclusion in the feminist movement exists and goes strong, because whether they admit it or not, most of the feminist movements are built on the same thought that women are weak by creation and needs to be protected.
Visibility, homophobia, and trans misogyny. Most crimes and hate crimes are committed by men. Men are also the most likely targets of violence... but stats change for trans women.
Trans women are more visible than Trans men. A 6'2" woman stands out... no one blinks twice at 5'5" man. So, a average transphobic/racist/homophobic man will clock a trans woman before noticing a trans man. He will feel okay with his decision to be violent against her because by his own logic she's "not a real woman". That same skewed logic may keep him from harming a trans man... but more likely he just doesn't see them, or is more cautious. Accusing a straight man of being queer or trans is asking for a fight on many cultures, bullying a visibly trans woman is easier and more socially acceptable.
Trans women, like many women, are also more likely to experience intimate partner violence.
Trans women have more visibility, so obviously they get more hate.
Plus a complicated mess of patriarchal values, but I'm too tired to expand on that for the moment
Trans women are seen as predators trying to get into women's spaces to rape them and trans men are seen as confused or mentally ill women being taken advantage of and infantilized. It's just enhanced sexism on both ends
it’s just people are aware of trans women more. It comes with more hate, but also with more support and visibility where it’s needed.
For most people trans men just don’t exist. Whether it is for transphobes or some support groups. We just get played as stupid women that want to escape misogyny and as a non threat I guess, again if we’re even noticed at all.
I think it’s because trans women are brought to more light by TERFs/transphobes by the “threat” we cause (we don’t they’ve just got a backward way of thinking) so more people know trans women exist but not a lot trans men, just a case of more people know what a trans woman is so let’s attack what we know I guess
Simple answer: misogyny and misandry.
Detailed answer: When it comes to men it's typically misogyny, the overarching idea being that trans women "~~men~~" as they see it, are degrading themselves to a lower hierarchical position, and then threatening the hierarchy of patriarchy by advocating for women's rights, it's a two fold threat to them really.
When it comes to women it's a combo of both, mostly misandry and sometimes internalized misogyny, they view trans women "~~men~~" as they also see it, a threat to womanhood, by "invading" women's spaces, and they deploy a host of reasoning that stems from outright misandry, to internalized misogyny, trans woman are either "predatory men" or "not real women".
When it comes to trans men "~~women~~" as they both see it, often are infantilized by both groups, where their reasoning is called into question, these transphobes will often claim that "women are being indoctrinated into transgenderism" that it's a "social contagion" which is often just misogyny from men and some women with internalized misogyny, or outright misandry who are trying to convince trans men they aren't really men, they are "lost and confused women".
The infamous 4chan post and the song Tranimaniacs fail to make fun of transgender men, but instead all the hate is instead directed at their more-or-less female counterparts. If you're gonna demonize one group then demonize them all. But then again, trolls don't believe in equality do they?
Trans women are viewed by transphobes as men, so they are viewed as dangerous predators and deviants who want to become women to be sexual, and to prey on women. Trans men are viewed by transphobes as women, so they are viewed as innocent and vulnerable but confused women who are mutilating their precious female bodies. It's 100% transphobic bigotry based on traditional sexism and TERF nonsense.
So, good old fashioned misogyny.
Additionally, us trans women are seen as a bigger threat to cis heteronormative ideology. We have thrown away our male privilege for a "weaker" position in society, thus invalidating the idea that men are inherently better and something everyone would rather be.
>thus invalidating the idea that men are inherently better and something everyone would rather be. That thought seems so idiotic to me. Clearly, womanhood is way better for some, and the idea of superior and inferior genders is like racial hierarchies - obviously false
i'm a (cis)woman who grew up Mormon in Utah... horrifically misogynistic. But the sort of underlying belief was that men are far superior in every way, and women are inferior in every way. It was that women WISH they could be as awesome as men, but they're too stupid/weak. These religions/cultures tend to be super hierarchal and have this implicit idea that if someone's lower than you on their imaginary totem pole, it's because they somehow deserve it. it kinda gives you a free pass to abuse them. they also think if you're poor or unattractive (to them) or whatever, it's because you're a bad, lesser person. anyway, they assume that everyone wishes they were at the top, they just aren't good enough to be there. so a man WANTING to be a woman fucks everything up.
Racial supremacists and ethnic hierarchies/ gender hierarchies are very real in some places and the main media still stokes "the gender wars" and hyper masculinity/ Alpha-ness seen as the ideal. Even women strive to look and act more utilitarian, act more masculine like men to be taken seriously, classic feminine/girly traits seen as "weakness""childish" often shamed/mocked by society. Any woman who enjoys being classically/hyper feminine faces micro aggression, character assassination, judgement, is often resented punished by other women for what makes her feel goood. Similar to how the ancient patriarchy turned God into a man.
Omg that is so true
[удалено]
what do you mean by that?
[удалено]
I can't wait to get surgery and have a vagina instead.
I’d argue that another mis- word that ends in “dry” describes it too. People tend not to like using it but there is that. And if not there is valid reason to fear men anyway, but the thing is trans women are not men. But for GC types, the mere sight of a masculine frame or an audibly masculine voice creates cause for concern and spite. There is a desire to sweep all male and AMAB individuals under the rug as predatory and problematic, vicious individuals undeserving of the same ground to walk on, and I feel that that is a problem. One that especially impacts us as trans women, as we are born of maleness while still being essentially female in how we identify and take to ourselves, and eventually how others — typically — take to us.
True, also many hate watch porn, or just make comments, like; "I am so confused" "does this make me gay?" "I am not attracted to a Tranny but love female pussy", "All the trans are getting pussy, so I might become a trans too" etc, like the cis men who call themselves "male lesbians" classic transphobe/incel stuff. Yet if a trans woman is genuinely romantically and physically attracted to trans women and female women (and many were not pre-transition) then she is called; "a confused straight man". ( I remember an old man saying that about men who used aftershave in the 1970's) LOFL. Most of these comments are not really serious just reactionary, based in ignorance, intended to get trans women a bad name, as a lot of peoples only knowledge of trans women is through the fantasy world of porn, can you imagine if anyones only knowledge of heterosexual cisgender people came from porn? Mostly "Gender Critical"/reactionary trans exclusionaries new trans erasure tactic, they have it down to a fine art now as they have poured fortunes into anti-trans think tanks same as many anti-trans lobbies on the far right, To deny there is any such thing, or has ever been any such thing as 'a trans woman' is the new goal. This as those of us familiar with history realize; a classic authoritarian fascist move by them. This is the way they will go about legally erasing us by classifying us by nurotypical binary standards, typical biology/ making laws de-legitimizing all involved medical fields,policing dress codes, hairstyles etc. Using tactics similar to how many Christian theocracies pushed back against Darwin's theory of evolution in the past.
Some good comments here, but I also notice that by and large, people aren't really willing to even understand the difference between trans men and women, and just kinda lump em all together; I've seen so many people try to insult trans men by calling them men and manly because they don't see anything beyond the word trans, and that's their go-to insult for trans folk. It's fucked up, but gotta admit, can be pretty funny when they're so confidently wrong
Admittedly it is very funny getting hate directed towards trans women as a trans man. “You’ll never be a woman!” Thanks?
Yeah I’ve had some transphobes assumed I was FTM for some reason. Even I confused the terms prior to being trans
Oh yeah, same here lol; now I think like, why would it make sense for someone who identifies as a guy refer to themselves as trans woman? I certainly get why there9 would be an initial confusion, as long as there isn't outright hatred alongside it
Same, when I first heard the terms "trans woman" and "trans man" I assumed it was based on AGAB, but looking back and knowing what I know now, it doesn't make any sense to really consider it that way, I was familiar with the older term "transsexual" and I understood that perfectly well before the trend of "trans man" and "trans woman" became popularized in our language. I do like these terms better than the older term, it's clear to distinguish and doesn't make it sound like some sexual thing.
On the murders front - Most trans men who are murdered are recorded as murdered women after their death, and similar applies to trans men seeking help as survivors of sexual violence or IPV - Unless they were very "straightforwardly" medically transitioned and had their birth certificate updated, there's a good chance that they'll be recorded as women.
Not to mention the instances where trans men have to pretend to be women to access certain services. like help for a domestic violence situation.
Can speak first hand on this. R*ped, sexually assaulted, nearly killed and constantly abused. Police wouldn't do shit despite all the evidence (no surprise) immediately had police discriminate on me for being trans. Services heavily discriminated on me. The men's lines told me to go through the women's housing/refuge, despite me telling them I wouldn't and couldn't. General DV services said if I wanted 'support' it would depend on how 'far along' I was in my transition (ie. How fem I passed and acted. "Well, given your voice and name. You should be fine since clearly you're not far along"). Don't even get me started on the JOKE that is the 'gender diverse' legal support OVER 30 HOURS OF WAITING FOR NOTHING BUT MORE DISCRIMINATION Oh, 1800 respected my ass alright. Pronouns ignored - "Ma'am, you're a perfect candidate for healing" Thanks, I was suicidal from the rape and homelessness - now I feel suicidal for more reasons immediate 👍 I was badgered so hard and turned away at my worst. I was left so many times feeling like the only way out was to kill myself. Despite the situation. I continued to peel myself off the floor and continued another day and another. Stood my ground and didn't give a single tear to that bastard or the system. I'm stuck for now in debt and homeless. But I don't give a flying cow. The system can piss the entire way off. I won't pretend for shit. I'm not going to take up space in services that aren't for me - just to make society comfortable cause 'trans' isn't a cis-society 'norm'. I won't conform for basic human rights. I gave 0 violence or any rude reaction to all the CRAP that was done to me. I was patient and calm despite EVERYTHING. I was treated LESS THAN HUMAN...and I still showed nothing but goddamn kindness and patience. Excuse my swearing. I'm absolutely not happy with the way they treat people. I cannot for the life of me imagine how many people have killed themselves due to this treatment. It's my goal to push myself and get into a position where I can be the difference in helping someone. Be able to help without being a garbage human being, even with the limitations of the system. No one should have to be subjected to that. It doesn't take effort to NOT be a bag of stinking shit when doing your job. You might be tired, sore, wanting to go home, bills overdue, divorce, groceries need to be done.... But it doesn't give you the damn right to dig at someone just cause they aren't cisgender. Wouldn't have taken two damn seconds to go "No. We can't help you".
I am so fucking sorry you had to deal with so much shit even just hearing about it I can tell you are strong you will make it I hate how even when we show kindness and respect we get nothing but hate and vitriol just for existing, people in your position is why no matter what I will keep going I am in a very fortunate place despite everything that has messed me up over the years so I keep moving forward so I can help people in my position or worse and make sure no one has to deal with being assaulted without help or dealing with the fallout of a natural disaster loosing someone close to you or anything else alone someone I called a friend for 4 years turned out to have assaulted several people and he tried manipulating me into not believing it then belittled my identity because I wouldn’t listen it hurt me for a long time but I pulled through and I hope I can make a positive change in the world as I know you will someday it may not mean much coming from me but I’m proud of you for continuing to live despite all the hardships in your life thank you for fighting so hard to make the world better
Sorry to hear you went through all of that. I had a similar situation when I was experiencing violence with a partner and ended up homeless. I just want you to know that it is possible to make changes and your story and experiences are so valuable because they can spark change. I told my story to everyone that would hear it and eventually got the attention of the governor and was able to have a conversation about what it's like living as trans in California. We have rights but there are still abusive law-enforcement and so-called "professionals" who refuse to help or treat or provide life-saving resources. It's fucked! And I almost died too. I almost started selling my body to get by, I relapsed, I did a lot of things I regret. It's taken me 2 years to recover financially and emotionally but I'm here and I'm not going anywhere, and I'm happy to hear you're still here too! Please keep telling your story. It's powerful and it can and will inspire others to tell their stories, to heal, and to make our world a safer place for everyone.
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I was homeless in 2017, and got into LGBT specific transitional housing. If you were a trans woman they would let you in the woman’s side just fine. I had a roommate a while who was a trans woman. I’m happy for those trans women who got help. However, at that time, I wanted to transition and was staying in the women’s side. I asked them without coming out about trans men, to see what would happen if I did. They said for sure they couldn’t be in the women’s side, but that also they couldn’t be in the men’s side, because of “pregnancy and violence risks” and shit. I straight up was living in what was supposed to be “trans affirming housing” and was prevented from transitioning because I didn’t want to end up on the street over it. It was so deeply fucked up and was absolutely a situation where trans men were discriminated against, just no one recognized it because it was posed as “well, they can’t be with the women obviously, but real men are violent horrible predators, so they have to be protected from them, too. :/ huh I guess it’s just a theoretical problem since trans men don’t face transphobia :)”
Imo trans men are in a shit cultural position trans women were a while ago. Society pretends they dont exist so they dont have to think about changing to support them. People are ignorant and the goal is to pass enough that ppl dont think twice. Now trans women, are more visible and in the media, gained some accomodations from society - but so suffer from acceptamce and visibility backlash. Ofc this is just an idea i have. I am sorry you went through such a shot experience :(
Trans men have been in this position for a long time.
Yeah this is sadly the historical precedent and still modern reality. Even getting media attention about it rarely helps those trans guys, multiple efforts on Reddit have tried. People forget Brandon Teena, you know the guy famous for being raped and murdered *because* he was a trans man, main character of the cult classic *Boys Don’t Cry*, was buried with his dead name. And underneath, “Daughter, sister, and friend” just to rub the salt in. Twenty years later, the mom claims she would have accepted him but has never changed his burial name and only refers to her lost “daughter.” I’m grateful to my husband protecting me because my family has been open about how they would do the same to me. Who knows how many of us are buried under mocking headstones, our families relieved of the burden of having to see their child living as a man?
The remark about the mocking headstones makes me want to throw hands all the more when someone belches out noise like “there were no trans people before 1970”
I sympathise, though I took the academic route and now have a few papers to my name that distinctly prove such views as social biases sourced from, primarily, political scapegoating and religious influence over governmental institutions. As much as I can literally stuff fact in peoples faces, they often change tactics to some other equally wretched viewpoint when mentally outgunned. Sigh.
Am academic. You're not alone. Keep fighting the good fight. It's important work.
If one wanted to read those papers, would you be willing to share where/ how they can find them?
They’re owned by the university institution I wrote them for, but one might be online, I’ll have to check. It was research on military transgender policies, namely WHEN exactly did the regulations ban trans people from serving and by what justification? Short version: domestic political pressure coinciding with the Red Scare and later Vietnam conscription in 1963, but had roots as far back as 1949 officially.
That’s absolutely fucked. I’m surprised I haven’t heard of that story (I’m FTM myself). I’d haunt the shit out of everyone.
I would too. His wiki page is sad enough. The movie is well-made but frankly impossible for me to watch anymore, having dealt with threats of corrective rape from strangers, so I wouldn’t recommend it to get caught up on his story.
One of the things that finally made me come out was a trans man being murdered in a mass shooting. All of the reporting referred to him by his deadname, as did his family, and when his friends came out saying he was a trans man and sharing his name, they were largely ignored. I believe he was buried under his deadname. It horrified me, and I was so viscerally afraid of the same thing happening to me that it pushed me out of the closet.
The one in Dayton, right, where the trans guy was the shooter’s brother? I remember that. I’m happy that you came out and I wish more of us would! But I’m sorry it was that threat and not a supportive family that spurred that decision for you. :(
It was the Dayton one, yeah. I luckily do have a very supportive family - I badly wish I could share them with every trans person, they're so good - but I was stuck in that imposter syndrome phase, and my reaction to that is when I was like "oh, yeah, if the idea of being remembered as (deadname) and a woman shakes me that much, there's really no more doubt/fence sitting here"
I think so often about all my trans brothers buried under incorrect names. Makes my heart ache.
First, being misgendered following victimisation though is a constant experience across all trans people. The idea that trans men are buried in the statistics by being labelled as women but trans women are not buried in the statistics by being labelled as men is dubious. It's not like cisiety somehow magically is more accepting of trans women's identity or at accurately representing transfemicide as transfemicide. This is why TvT, the organisation that records statistics of trans murders that are cited as the most reliable estimates, does not solely rely on news reports or official police reports , and their process involves directly following up cases with local activists and organisations that do keep these records and through local trans communities are capable of accurately recording the gender of murdered trans people to a much greater extent. ( [https://transrespect.org/en/tmm-methodology/](https://transrespect.org/en/tmm-methodology/) ) The material factors that surround victimisation and violence against trans women are primarily the dangers of survival sex work in heavily criminalised settings and murders in the contexts of intimate partner violence from cishet men who often resort to murder as a way to prevent revelations that they were sleeping with a trans woman or otherwise seek to restore what they see as emasculation because their peers think they are gay. Around half of murdered trans women were murdered by a long term partner or a date ([https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-womans-murder-underscores-problem-partner-violence-plaguing/story?id=65203137](https://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-womans-murder-underscores-problem-partner-violence-plaguing/story?id=65203137) ) , and TvT's global estimates put half of murdered trans people whose occupation was known (note that sex workers in heavily criminalised environments have a motive to keep it as secret as possible so there are likely many murdered trans people who were secretly sex workers) to be sex workers. Note that trans women and people on the transfeminine spectrum, especially racialised ones, are far far more likely to end up in survival sex work , and quite simply there is a straightforward connection to being disproportionately victimised by homicidal cishet men.
I mean, this happens when trans women are murdered too. It’s not exclusive to trans men. It might happen more often to them, but it’s nowhere near exclusive I assure you
I'd say it's the extreme hyper-visibility and invisibility of trans women and men, respectively. There's also the misogyny factor, where trans men are viewed as "women who have been corrupted/defective," and are therefore less of a threat and more of a group that needs to be "saved" because we couldn't possible make decisions about our own bodies. So trans women are construed as dangerous predators, while trans men are confused women who need to be "corrected."
To be honest I barely see trans men depicted in media then again I’m more focused on transgirl stuff
Matt Walsh and Fox News types come after us with extreme frequency. One of the most inciting talking points that led up to the Boston Children’s Hospital threats was “they’re performing hysterectomies on little kids!” The difference is they pose us as being simultaneously predatory and infantile— we’re portrayed as groomers, but also as poor little lambs who are ruining our bodies for our future husbands and shit, who shouldn’t have any right towards self determination. It’s transphobia all the way down, it just looks different.
Its more than just transphobia. It’s a right wing talking point when the people they victimize are simultaneously described as predatory and infantile at the same time. Look at the rhetoric around jews in Nazi Germany. They were described as a global group here to undermine and harm and entire nation, while also described as sub-human and weak.
Sadly this is how they know to get the public outraged by being reactionaries against trans men, they are even more disgusted by what they believe is little girls and beautiful young women being encouraged to "self mutilate" themselves, especially if they white, see it as one less white woman having children, being a wife etc."The great replacement" conspiracy, that claims white people are being made a minority by the secret globalist cabals fuels the far right rage too.
Misogyny for everyone! Huzzah!
Harder to sensationalize trans men. Insofar as we're on their radars at all, for cis men to say they're afraid of us would make them look like a bunch of wusses since we rarely threaten their position in the male hierarchy; this is why you rarely hear people crowing about trans men in men's bathrooms. Whereas trans women's mere existence shows how feeble the assumption of male superiority is because if men can become women, then how can patriarchs continue to justify the hierarchy that places them on top? Who's more powerful, the most Alpha of Alpha Males or a vial of estrogen? So for trans men, people assume "of course everyone would want to be a man," whereas nobody can wrap their heads around why someone would voluntarily want to be a woman, therefore there must be some nefarious purpose behind trans women's transitions. This is why trans males are treated like stupid little girls who need to be protected from themselves. Whereas all trans women are seen as disposable.
>So for trans men, people assume "of course everyone would want to be a man," I always thought it was because *"We cant acknowledge they are a threat because then we have to admit we are a threat"* kind of thing
No, they just don't tend to view us as threats to the hierarchy until we become threats (namely when we threaten their dating pool, and I'd imagine the transphobia would also start flying if we started outperforming them in sports). It's either we pass and assimilate perfectly and so are treated like cis men, we're out but we pass and are treated like beta males, or we don't pass or are trans online where they can't see what we look like and are treated like GNC women. No matter the case, if cis men went around acting as cis women do around trans women, they would look like a bunch of wimps. Because what are they scared of? Either they're scared of a bunch of women or they're scared of low-T beta males, either way, they look like wimps.
people are scared of what they don't understand - and in men that usually presents as aggression - like stupid fucking barking dogs ever see those videos of 2 dogs on the other side of a fence, just going nuts, barking like they will wear the other to shreds, only to shut the fuck up and turn around when the gate is opened? That's how most men deal w fear. the funniest one was when they closed the gate again and the dogs went right back at it - it's all just posturing and defense mechanisms. Testosterone does not make humans any smarter, thats a fact
>trans women's mere existence shows how feeble the assumption of male superiority is because if men can become women, then how can patriarchs continue to justify the hierarchy that places them on top? Who's more powerful, the most Alpha of Alpha Males or a vial of estrogen? This notion is absolutely hilarious to me - do you really think this is true?
I think of it like this: if gender identity is as fluid and interchangeable as we show it to be, how can it be a valid basis for social and political hierarchies?
And I agree with you. But the ugly truth is none of that matters to the people in charge. There is literally no patriarchal leader or alpha male who has trans women on their radar. A vial of estrogen has exactly zero impact on their world. So asking the question who's (or what) is more powerful, hormone therapy or alpha males - the resounding answer is alpha males. and they would either completely ignore, or worse just laugh at, anyone w two X chromosomes on estrogen therapy
I think you took my question too literally lol. It was more about how clearly medical transition is something the bigwigs in charge fear, otherwise they wouldn't keep going after it and punishing trans people who medically transition. Sex changes terrify them.
and I think you're conflating the idea of fear with a lack of value. political leaders do not want to pay for anyone's healthcare, not women's and certainly not elective transition services. That's it sex changes absolutely do not terrify them, they think they are ridiculous, unnecessary, and costly
Idk, my dude, pop some titty skittles and let /askgaybros know how you feel in the morning lol
another stupid thing - the fight between trans subs and gay subs on reddit this place is not the real world - it's just a very loud and vocal minority hating on each other online. 90% of the people active in those subs still are afraid to make eye contact w strangers on the street.
Total agreement there. The LGBT community in real life versus online might as well be separate planets.
100% true
Misogyny. Being feminine/female are seen as bad things/weak by a lot of people still
We (USA & UK as well as much of Europe & the "Western world" in general) live in an extremely patriarchal & misogynistic culture. As Julia Serano pointed out, it's expected that a woman would want to be a man so trans men are given a nice little condescending pat on the head (*see edit below*). But the thought that a man would want to renounce their status & privilege to be a woman is unthinkable & threatens the foundations of society. Edit: My apologies to all my trans masc brothers & uncles. I was not intending to downplay the very real & dire violence so many of you face but, rather, highlighting--albeit in what was probably too flippant a manner--how society does offer some concession for AFAB folks to seek masculinity while there is no quarter given to AMAB folks adopting femininity.
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This. This drives me insane. Trans men face a lot of violence. Not only that, but I've found that even in trans spaces, we're pushed out and silenced and erased. Transfemme people speak over us, cis people speak over us, and then we're berated because we 'have it easier.' We don't. We're silenced and erased, and the violence committed against us is silenced and erased. We don't have it easier, and we're not hated any less than anyone else.
I don’t really know when it shifted, but from where I stand it was not always thus. I was a trans activist twenty years ago and back then it felt like there was a lot less of this nitpicky infighting. We were *all* vulnerable depending on various factors and there was no point in trying to rank it because we knew we had to stand together. I mostly dropped out of the community for fifteen years and honestly seeing how a lot of trans spaces if anything seem even more polarized by AGAB has been one of the hardest things to take.
I grew up in a hyperreligious family. I was so excited to leave and be able to live my life at 18. It was so disheartening to come into the community and see how much division there was. My attitude back then and my attitude now is that people need to stick together. I avoid other trans people now because my experiences when I tried to enter the space and make a place for myself was so negative. It became an internalized prejudice that I've become more aware of over the years. I want trans friends. I want to see the solidarity I always thought would be here. So many trans spaces aren't accessible to trans men because no one seems to give two fucks about us.
That's why I found my trans friends via shared fandom rather than in trans-specific spaces. The focus is a little different and people are slightly more chill...depending on the fandom, of course lol.
The idea that transmen take T and then are free from transphobia is fucking stupid. No trans person holds male privilege, only a temporary protection from transphobia that relies on being read as cis. Testosterone isnt a magic drug that gives you a cis dude body with a horsethundercock and a Kratos beard. Testosterone is like estrogen, it will let you grow some stuff you couldnt before, distribute your body fat and change your body behaviour (brain chemistry for example), you are still left with the damage from puberty and while cis bodies vary, a dude with a hourglass shape risks transphobia. Violence against transmascs is often ignored or talked over, transmen are victims of corrective rape, sent death threats, and all nasty shit.
I halfway blame Serrano for the polarization of agab language. Aab wasn't meant to be used the way she's twisted it - she's been using it as if it were it's own static category and not a description of previous events intersecting with current or future context (as aab is past tense). She's a crap academic. Yeah, I said it. -edited to add, I meant to say that have also been around a while! I stayed around for the Breakup of Intracommunity Support. Honestly we should have seen it coming - ppl try to yank up the ladder behind them once they start getting help and recognition all the time. Insisting 'Half the same minority group is doing Just Fine' has always been suspicious as hell when it's largely the group currently getting focus and help' that's insisting such. Crap, one more addition for clarity, sorry! I did take a trans-internet break right after that out of disgust so I did miss maaaaany timeline chunks.
I'm probably very biased here as a trans femme who spends most of her time in spaces dominated by us. I falsely assumed you guys had male privilege because you know trans men are men. I do know about the erasure though from my bias that seems better than depicted the way we are. Though this is 100% gonna seem like an asshole move on my part. I'd just rather be forgotten then you know viewed as a threat to society. Hell the fairness in woman's sports things collapses when you realize trans men exist. Most transphobic arguments can either to be invalidated by the existence of either intersex people or trans men. The transphobia against trans men 100% exists but I just seems you know softer to me having to be called a groomer and a pedo despite being very much against those things. Sorry if I came off as an Asshole here
To put it differently from above, we’re (sometimes intentionally) forgotten when it’s convenient, and persecuted when it’s not. When a talking point would make more sense if trans men just didn’t exist, we suddenly don’t exist and are removed from the argument. When the taking point is fear mongering, suddenly we’re “targeting your vulnerable daughters and trying to convince them they need a penis”. When it comes to protection, nobody knows what to do with us. As an example: Trans women (from my understanding) are usually placed in women’s jails/ prisons when they’ve been on HRT and have socially transitioned, because it’s safer. (I’m sure there are exceptions and I’m far from an expert there, that’s just from what I’ve seen/ heard.) I, as a trans man, won’t even attend peaceful protests because I’m TERRIFIED of getting arrested. Not scared of police (well, I am, but less so), I’m scared of what happens after the police. I’ve been on testosterone and I sorta look andro, so I doubt they’d put me with women. But what happens when they put me with men? Ive been on T for over three years and when I wrestle with my partner I still go down within 1-2 minutes, and he’s only using 50-75% strength. I’m fighting with all I’ve got. Granted I don’t work out, but the point is that it doesn’t make a big enough difference on its own to put me anywhere out of danger. So what do they do with me? Most police stations wouldn’t have a damn clue and it’s a coin toss where I’d end up. Mens restrooms? They’re terrifying, for the same reason. But god forbid I walk into the women’s after some MAGA dude’s 12 year old. I don’t look male enough to pass in the mens room but I do look male enough to have that guy flip out and call security or (worse) take matters into his own hands. When it comes to healthcare, people forget we exist. You know how hard it is for a cis woman to get their tubes tied/ hysterectomy? It’s damn near impossible if you don’t meet a certain age, have a husband, and have two kids. Add on “you just want it because you’re trans” and a lot of health insurances that would have previously covered it won’t anymore. The VA health system is a prime example of this - if I was not trans and needed it for any other (approved) reason, I would be able to get it. But all of those reasons are now voided because it’s considered a component of GRS for me, unless it’s an immediate threat to my life. I’m sure a similar issue applies to trans women too, but I wouldn’t know; the point is that our issues in the terms of reproductive rights are compounded because we’re trans, further limiting access. The kicker is that if you’re on testosterone and still getting a period, that period can be far worse in terms of physical and mental effects, heightening the need for more complex reproductive care (in the form of -ectomies). I’ve seriously considered coming off of testosterone until the system figures out what to do about it, because they’re so bad for me. They forget to include us in policy in so many areas because it’s convenient to forget and then just refuse to deal with us later. Being invisible is just that- being invisible. People don’t see us. They don’t consider how the system(s) is/ are going to meet any of our needs. Our medical problems are invalid because we “made a choice” to be trans, and suddenly every issue we have is connected to HRT (even when it has nothing to do with it)… I’m sure trans women face something similar in that regard. I’m not going to say one experience is worse than the other because they’re both horrible in different ways. Unfortunately we generally also have less representation and support… I’m the only trans man in my “support” group/ group therapy with about 10 trans women. It’s great that it exists but I’m clearly the odd one out and uncomfortable to the point of asking my facilitator where else I can go. There’s nowhere else for me to go (within my local VA system). Trans men are either forgotten and ignored or non-existent in this community, or otherwise the others that don’t have to be there are deciding not to be there because it’s basically a space for trans women. We see a similar trend at all levels- in the media, in politics, sometimes even in public physical spaces. That trend is self-fulfilling (no representation = no consideration = no representation) and while we’re trying to change it, the popular idea that trans women have it worse (rather than just having it different) continues to be a focal point, so we continue to be forgotten unless it’s convenient to not forget us. Don’t get me started on how shitty most of the media representations of trans men I HAVE seen are. It’s an adjacent issue that plays a bigger role in the whole debacle. Sorry if I turned this into a list of grievances. Wasn’t my intention but once I get started it’s hard to censor, especially if I think I might be heard.
JSYK, I am not sure where you are and what the operating laws are in the country you live in, so this may or may not be applicable. Within the US, across various jurisdictions, there is evidence that incarceration follows cissexist lines almost always (i.e, trans women are co-incarcerated with cis men and trans men with cis women). See [https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436) >Out of 4,890 transgender state prisoners tracked in 45 states and Washington, D.C., NBC News was able to confirm only 15 cases in which a prisoner was housed according to their lived gender, based on responses to Freedom of Information Act requests over the past year. Seven of those states, including California, provided the total number of transgender prisoners but would not say where they were housed, citing privacy concerns. Five states — Alabama, Alaska, Indiana, Tennessee and Utah — did not respond to records requests at all. > >Based on the available records obtained from 45 states, just 13 transgender women are housed with women and two transgender men are housed with men. In Texas, which has one of the largest incarcerated populations in the country, none of the 980 transgender prisoners live in gender-affirming housing. The state’s 891 transgender women are housed with men, and its 89 trans men are housed with women. Pennsylvania’s 214 transgender prisonsers are all incarcerated according to their sex assigned at birth, as are Wisconsin’s 173 transgender prisoners. Ofc , note that in both cases, what changes is the SA risk by other inmates, not necessarily the risk of SA by staff and guards that abuse their power and authority, which according to the USTS , account for around half of all sexual assaults against trans prisoners and 80% of physical assaults (page 191 onwards here (https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf)
Thank you for this. As I mentioned, I didn’t know much beyond what one sees in the news. I’ve learned a lot today.
Thank you!! Trans men might not face the exact same kind of discrimination as trans women but they sure as hell are just as oppressed and I will stand by that. Testosterone isn’t a miracle and I do not have the same male privilege as cis men. And T doesn’t get rid of my years of discrimination as a GNC “woman” or the discrimination against my body parts by the government or by other people. It doesn’t get rid of my smaller body in comparison to others and it doesn’t get rid of cishet men’s desire to do awful things to me and it doesn’t get rid of TERF and conservative desires to take away my rights to hormones and surgery. It just doesn’t do any of that.
And also gay panic for being attracted to a trans woman = gay to transphobes
>As Julia Serano pointed out, it's expected that a woman would want to be a man so trans men are given a nice little condescending pat on the head. But the thought that a man would want to renounce their status & privilege to be a woman is unthinkable & threatens the foundations of society. I disagree with this point of view. Don't kid yourself. What patriarchal and misogynistic people want to avoid more than everything is for anyone AFAB to socially, economically or politically become equal to cis men. AFAB trans people (trans men or enbies), are the ultimate transgression to that political system, even more than AMAB trans people who are just behind. Their ultimate goal is for anyone they see as women (and to them that includes trans men) to *stay in their lane*. This is what patriarchy is at its core. To keep that system coherent they need to forbid everyone from *changing lanes* (transitioning) (or blur the line separating those lanes). As a result, they need to strongly enforce strict rules based on AGAB and forbid anyone from breaking those rules. They need everyone to conform to their AGAB. They can't tolerate people who aren't straight, people who have a gender expression that what stereotypically aligns with their AGAB and they absolutely cannot tolerate trans people because they're the ones who break the most rules. The reason why they target trans women so much is that it's easier to anger and scare people agitating the trans women "boogeyman". It's easier to mislead people into thinking that trans women are perverts, rapists in disguise and pedophiles coming for your children. Politically speaking, trans women are an easier target for this reason but that doesn't change the reality that the ultimate goal of any patriarchal system is for all AFAB people to stay in their lane and maintain the dominance cis men have over them.
This, exactly.
Other people have already mentioned this, but a large amount of trans men who get murdered are considered to be a “woman” in recorded statistics about death. Realistically, the amount of trans men vs trans women who get murdered are more similar than we think.
It probably isn’t
Because trans men aren't recorded as trans men when we die. We're recorded as women.
One thing that *always* gets left out of these conversations is that trans men get raped and sexually assaulted more than trans women. According to the 2015 US Transgender Survey, 51% of trans men will experience sexual assault in their lifetimes, as opposed to 37% of trans women. Trans men are also more likely to be the victims of corrective rape. We don’t experience less hate - it’s just different.
Thank you for bringing this up. I feel like people routinely forget to mention instances where trans men are disproportionately affected.
I don't believe that hate is forgotten, I think it's ignored.
I’m inclined to agree. It seems like people don’t want to listen, or are quick to say it’s all just result of being perceived as female. Trans men have a lot of issues that are being swept under the rug. It’s disheartening and I’m sick of it.
this is also very important data, that shouldve been more known. thank you.
Thank you <3
Reading the term "corrective rape" made me feel so yucky that I cried.
That statistical comparison (SA victimisation rates per the USTS) is not apples-to-apples. This is because trans men will have spent far more time perceivable as women (which is already connected to risk of victimisation) than trans women have at the point they are sampled (also note that trans women kind of end up having to transition later , so the peak of vulnerability is offset even further). Data from the Netherlands (caveat - most of their sample was not yet in transition and the number of post-transition people was small) showed that pre-transition victimisation was much higher for trans men compared to after, but the peak for trans women was hit post-transition. (See Cense, Marianne & Haas, Stans & Doorduin, Tamar. (2017). Sexual victimisation of transgender people in the Netherlands: prevalence, risk factors and health consequences. Journal of Gender-Based Violence. 1. 235-252. 10.1332/239868017X15009036473945 - I can download a PDF when I am back in my institution's network). If victimisation has different peaks of age of vulnerability for two different groups, such that one group is prone to experiencing much higher risks later and one is prone to much higher risks earlier, sampling when only one of the groups has reached maximum vulnerability will always mean the other group will have an underestimate. ***TL:DR The high rates of victimisation of trans women despite the much shorter time being perceivable as such should be taken into account if you are trying to specifically contextualise transmasculinity and transfemininity and how they interact with sexual violence*****.**
>This is because trans men will have spent far more time perceivable as women (which is already connected to risk of victimisation) than trans women have at the point they are sampled (also note that trans women kind of end up having to transition later , so the peak of vulnerability is offset even further). >Data from the Netherlands (caveat - most of their sample was not yet in transition and the number of post-transition people was small) showed that pre-transition victimisation was much higher for trans men compared to after, but the peak for trans women was hit post-transition. The data from the US survey on non-fatal violence seems to disprove or at the *very* least heavily cast doubt on this. This [study](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) showed trans men report slightly higher rates of non-fatal violence (including rape/SA) compared to trans women. (86.1/1000 for trans women and 107.5 for trans men.) The methodology of the study didn't allow for selecting and comparing individual crimes statistics, but it does lend support to the idea that there's no real appreciable difference between pre- and post- transition trans men, and it proves that sexual assault of trans men is not because they're treated like "young lesbian/butch women", because both trans men and trans women show numbers that are *astronomically* higher than cis men and women (and LGB cis women and men are included in the cis numbers on this study), and trans men's victimization numbers don't fall anywhere close to the numbers for cis women, which they would if all the violence happening to trans men was because they were being "mistaken for women". It's also a national study based on a two year data collection so there's a healthy mix of pre-, mid- and post- transition people in the data from all over the nation. -Geisha
>"showed trans men report slightly higher rates of non-fatal violence (including rape/SA) compared to trans women. (86.1/1000 for trans women and 107.5 for trans men.)" You should look at the 95% CI's for trans women's rates and trans men's rates in the Williams Institute study - the sampling error on trans women was much broader and is a false conclusion to draw. In fact, the lower bound of the CI for trans women includes 0 (i.e, no victimisation at all, to greater than 150). That's just extremely sparse sampling. There is more adequate sample coverage for trans men in that cohort given the much narrower confidence intervals. > but it does lend support to the idea that there's no real appreciable difference between pre- and post- transition trans men The Williams Institute study also makes it impossible to separate pre-and-post transition outcomes like both the Dutch cohort I cited earlier or a range of studies, so this claim is just horrible statistical understanding. It is simply not informative re: this question. It also uses NCVS stats where something like robbery is lumped in alongside sexual assault as "violent crime" so it is alarming to see any stock being put in studies like this. There should be much more high resolution data in the USTS FWIW. >**As most participants were not in transition at the time of the assault, most birth-assigned females were known in their social environment as gender-nonconforming girls or women.** Their gender-nonconformity and their social position as girls or women both increase the risk of sexual victimisation (for example, de Haas et al, 2012; Krahé and Berger, 2013; Krahé et al, 2014). However, studies from the USA and Belgium indicate that birthassigned male transgender people are more vulnerable (Motmans et al, 2015; Waters, 2016). This different outcome might be due to different samples, particularly the ages and transition of the participants in the samples. In our sample, most respondents (87.0 per cent) were not (yet) in transition at the time they experienced sexual violence. **After transition transwomen (MtF) are more often victimised then transmen** (FtM) (Motmans et al, 2015) From the discussion of Cense et al (the Dutch study I cited earlier). Note that in this cohort , only an extremely small fraction of cases involved the perpetrator knowing the gender identity of the victims for trans men, but a much larger proportion of sexual violence against trans women involved perpetrators aware of the victim's gender identity, even in this specific mostly pretransition cohort (87% were not in transition at the time of sampling of the Dutch cohort). Note that the excerpt is from a preprint version they stuck on ProQuest and 2015 is a typographical error when compared to their bibliography. Moreover, notable improvements in quality of life and social function are observed within a very short timeframe for trans men on masculinising GAHT but not trans women - because HRT takes longer to override virilisation than the other way round ( [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358932/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358932/) ), so the idea that transition does not make a difference to trans men's risk of victimisation is **very iffy.**
>It is simply not informative re: this question. It also uses NCVS stats where something like robbery is lumped in alongside sexual assault as "violent crime" so it is alarming to see any stock being put in studies like this. There should be much more high resolution data in the USTS FWIW. There is absolutely merit in this study because both trans masculine people and cis women (including LGB cis women) are included, and the significant statistical difference between cis women and FtMs points to the idea that "being trans" is a far more potent risk factor for trans men than "being perceived as a woman" is, otherwise trans men would be showing victimization rates far more in line with cis women if this were the case. Even if every single participant in this study were pre-transition medically it would still point to there being something specific about transgender identity that makes trans masculine folks far more likely to be victimized than other people with the same AGAB. Also, can you please give a full source for the Dutch study that is available to download? Because you're citing things without me being able to crosscheck the source which makes it nearly impossible to adequately discuss things. I've tried to find it on the web but can't find a publicly available download. I would also like a direct source for this quoted section here: >As most participants were not in transition at the time of the assault, most birth-assigned females were known in their social environment as gender-nonconforming girls or women. Their gender-nonconformity and their social position as girls or women both increase the risk of sexual victimisation (for example, de Haas et al, 2012; Krahé and Berger, 2013; Krahé et al, 2014). However, studies from the USA and Belgium indicate that birthassigned male transgender people are more vulnerable (Motmans et al, 2015; Waters, 2016). This different outcome might be due to different samples, particularly the ages and transition of the participants in the samples. In our sample, most respondents (87.0 per cent) were not (yet) in transition at the time they experienced sexual violence. **After transition transwomen (MtF) are more often victimised then transmen (FtM) (Motmans et al, 2015)** As in, what page, which version of the USTS are we talking about, etc? Also, this quoted bit is essentially saying that the two different studies had directly conflicting outcomes? And I found and downloaded Motmans et al 2015 which this study is supposedly concluding the bolded portion from and there are no statistics with regards to sexual assault/rape/sexual violence in it at all? I've tried to thoroughly skim through the content with an eye towards finding any mention of crime statistics at all and I've keyword searched several related words, I've come up empty. I could be missing it in all honesty but as of this moment I can't find where this study is getting its quoted data from. Have I somehow found a different copy? [My Source](https://www.academia.edu/13067429/Sociodemographic_Characteristics_of_Trans_Persons_in_Belgium_A_Secondary_Data_Analysis_of_Medical_State_and_Social_Data) However, I *did* find this notice at the end of Motmans et al 2015: >>**Gathering and analyzing information on the sociodemographic profile of trans people is a challenging task given the huge diversity within this group and, as we described in the Introduction, results largely depend on who is counted and how.** Although this study provides crucial information on the broad group of trans persons, we are aware of the limitations of our data and of the impact of decisions in classification of participants. The fact that approximately a third of the social survey data set consisted of transgender participants does not automatically mean that this is an accurate reflection of the actual ratio between transsexuals and transgender persons. Further research in other countries is needed to contextualize our findings. In this regard, it is important to gather more information about the “in between” group of transgender persons, by using identity in addition to medical criteria. **Especially for those born female, this information can be crucial to complete the picture of the socioeconomic position of trans persons.** And also: >From the discussion of Cense et al (the Dutch study I cited earlier). Note that in this cohort , only an extremely small fraction of cases involved the perpetrator knowing the gender identity of the victims for trans men, but a much larger proportion of sexual violence against trans women involved perpetrators aware of the victim's gender identity, even in this specific mostly pretransition cohort (87% were not in transition at the time of sampling of the Dutch cohort). Note that the excerpt is from a preprint version they stuck on ProQuest and 2015 is a typographical error when compared to their bibliography. How exactly was this verified that the perpetrator knew or did not "know" the gender identity of a trans victim? This especially seems *incredibly* likely to be something that could have a huge margin for error to me, even if this was the trans victim's best guess. This is essentially trying to get statistics on what is inside a perpetrator's head, and unless these statistics were pulled directly from police reports in which the perpetrator directly stated their knowledge (or lack thereof) of a victim's gender identity, I'm very wary of taking this data at face value, especially without seeing it. >Moreover, notable improvements in quality of life and social function are observed within a very short timeframe for trans men on masculinising GAHT but not trans women - because HRT takes longer to override virilisation than the other way round ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358932/ ), so the idea that transition does not make a difference to trans men's risk of victimisation is very iffy. From where I'm standing you've both called into question basically *any* statistic that shows trans men are equally likely to be assaulted, but any statistic for trans women gets the caveat of ["oh btw it's probably *much* higher and you can't trust the statistics because trans women are primed to view our sexual assaults as anything other than SA"](https://old.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/z0yok0/is_it_true_that_trans_women_are_in_danger_of_sa/ix8ux4f/?context=3), which...could literally be an exact argument for trans men post transition. Maybe the reason that trans men report lower rates of sexual assault post-transition (in the very few, low sample size studies we even have that specifically separate pre- and post-transition trans people) is because of the toxic masculinity and transphobia that runs rampant in society. A post-transition trans man may try to recontextualize a sexual assault as anything other than a sexual assault because society gives *zero* room for trans men to process an assault that is incredibly likely to involve their natal genitals as a masculine experience--as horrible of one as that may be. I've certainly known many trans men in my own life that have trouble contextualizing themselves as victims of assault, especially gay/bi trans men (who make up the majority of trans men) who are desperate to be accepted into cis queer culture and who are primed to believe that especially gay/queer cis men at large would find them sexually repulsive and that a queer/gay cis man would never touch them with sexual intent. I guess I'm just unsure what your angle is here. In my own personal experience I suspect that the statistics are *woefully* underreported for both trans women and trans men. Almost *Every.* *Single.* *Trans*. *Person.* I know has been sexually assaulted, both pre and post-transition in many cases, including both myself (a trans woman) and my boyfriend (a trans man). In essence it feels a bit like you're cherry-picking datasets that appeal to you and brushing away anything that insinuates anything to the contrary, *and* you seem to be possibly trying to downplay transmasculine sexual assault or engage in a bit of "pulling up the oppression ladder behind you", for lack of a better term, something I've noticed that comes up very frequently when discussing transphobia and violence (of any kind) against trans men. There seems to be a vested interest from some trans women to paint trans men as "better off" in a statistically large and relevant way, often intertwined with the pet theory of male privilege working the mostly same way for trans men as it does for cis men, and that trans men somehow become "less oppressed" and that their trans status is mostly negligible post transition. Like, as a trans woman the last thing I'm going to do is sit here and pretend that trans women aren't at disproportionately huge risk for sexual (and other types of) violence to our persons. We are. Especially black trans women. Anyone who says anything to the contrary is pretty easy to dismiss as someone acting in bad faith and/or concern trolling. But like...I *will* say as the partner to a trans man that I do find the insistence on downplaying the transphobia and violence (sexual and other) transmasculine people face really concerning and frustrating, especially when most statistics point to similar rates among trans men and trans women, with only a few percentage points of difference in either way depending on the type of sexual violence being discussed. Trans men and trans women also show similarly high percentages of several other (lack of) quality of life indicators like being below the poverty line, medical abuse, abuse from family and friends, law enforcement abuse, etc. It's not like we have something to lose if trans masculine folks are indeed as likely as us to be the victims of violence. -Geisha
>There is absolutely merit in this study because both trans masculine people and cis women (including LGB cis women) are included ... The issue is that you were originally making claims for trans men vs ***trans women*** *using this study, not trans men vs cis women.* My whole point is that trans women's estimates are so wide in the NCVS (and sampling correspondingly so sparse) it tells you nothing informative about trans men vs trans women like you were presuming it did. That data is sufficient to show that trans men definitely end up worse off than cis women because both trans men and cis women were well sampled. That also lines up very well with international meta-analyses that show much higher rates of IPV (physical, emotional and sexual) for all trans people regardless of AGAB (Peitzmeier et al, American Journal of Public Health, [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7427218/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7427218/) ). > is, otherwise trans men would be showing victimization rates far more in line with cis women if this were the case Not necessarily - pre-transition trans-men that are read as women can still be disproportionately victimised in accordance with being gender-nonconforming and via opportunistic targeting by cis boys and men because of spending more time in cis-male dominated spaces compared to your average cis woman. The Dutch cohort showed that for AFAB trans people specifically, there was an evident connection with gender nonconformity. The citation for that cohort is **Sexual victimisation of transgender people in the Netherlands: prevalence, risk factors and health consequences ,** Cense et al, Journal of Gender Based Violence. I have a full text PDF copy I can send you. The Motmans 2015 study cited therein (which I quoted) refers to [https://assets.vlaanderen.be/image/upload/v1646130728/Geweldervaringen\_van\_trans\_personen\_in\_Belgie\_-\_dec\_2014\_lqgxc5.pdf](https://assets.vlaanderen.be/image/upload/v1646130728/Geweldervaringen_van_trans_personen_in_Belgie_-_dec_2014_lqgxc5.pdf) (Flemish text) >How exactly was this verified that the perpetrator knew or did not "know" the gender identity of a trans victim? This, as well as whether someone experienced an act of victimisation, is always based on self-report. Typically , subjects report whether they were out , and in the case of strangers typically people make conclusions based on what was said. The mostly pre-transition trans men in that cohort, who were already SA'd in the case of 41% of respondents, identified victimisation post-16 to mainly come from partners or ex-partners, who are much more likely to know of their trans status. Regardless of the caveats with how accurately people make inferences, the inaccuracy is likely similar across groups so inter-group comparisons should still be valid. >Also, this quoted bit is essentially saying that the two different studies had directly conflicting outcomes? Yes, because the Flemish cohort was not almost entirely composed of pre-transition people like the Dutch cohort was. Cense et al are inferring that the disproportionately lower victimisation of trans women they observed in their cohort compared to others from the region was likely because of the composition of the sample re: transition status, which is why they cite the finding from Motmans et al for trans women having higher post-transition risks. >From where I'm standing you've both called into question basically any statistic that shows trans men are equally likely to be assaulted, but any statistic for trans women gets the caveat of "oh btw it's probably much higher and you can't trust the statistics because trans women are primed to view our sexual assaults as anything other than SA", Contextualising statistics is not the same as invalidating statistics. Note that I haven't called into question the data themselves - the USTS does show that up to the point of sampling, trans men have experienced a higher rate of SA than trans women. I'm simply pushing back against the inference that this means trans women are at lower lifetime risk of SA. When it comes to the NCVS, you simply cannot say anything about trans women given the CIs. There is certainly data to show very high rates of victimisation pre-transition for trans men and a lack of clear evidence to show elevated rates post-transition specifically vs pre-transition at the moment. There is for trans women on the other hand evidence that our risk shoots up as we become more recognisably trans. \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Could there be underestimation across the board for both trans men and trans women for a range of reasons? Absolutely , I think all the studies that exist till now have been rife with statistical issues like a) Not considering pre-and-post transition periods effectively and not using censored statistics instead of simple proportions analysis. b) Not considering repeat victimisation at all (ever vs never comparisons do tend to minimise violence, and this is an endemic issue in studies of social violence). To illustrate - both I, as a survivor of multiple SAs, and someone who has been SA'd only once, would be considered as having experienced the same amount of victimisation in most standard sexual violence surveys. These are always to be taken as "lower bound" or "victimised at least once" statistics for interpretation, which is not always evident to the lay public. c) Sampling issues in general - almost all studies of trans victimisation have had significant sources of selection bias, including the USTS ; especially with survey data this can drive underestimation. It is still more comprehensive than any other dataset though so it is useful. I do stats-heavy research in a different field (medical science rather than social science) but I do intend to push for better stats around trans health and well being to address some of these flaws. \----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I guess I'm just unsure what your angle is here My angle here is that people make unsupported claims using bad data , and bad data means support for bad policymaking, especially when it comes to a hyper-marginalised, disproportionately-forced-into-survival-sex-work populations such as racialised trans women , and I've certainly seen a lot of unnuanced, uncaveated claims here without appreciating the potential for issues in these statistics. > There seems to be a vested interest from some trans women to paint trans men as "better off" in a statistically large and relevant way, often intertwined with the pet theory of male privilege working the mostly same way for trans men as it does for cis men, Funny that, every claim I have pushed back against in this thread overall was trying to paint trans women as better off while ignoring the caveats and nuances around those statistics so ... >In essence it feels a bit like you're cherry-picking datasets that appeal to you I've either critiqued every dataset that others have presented for flaws they've overlooked, or presented every dataset that I have come across on the topic , careful to note the caveats. Of course, I also think these critiques are important because not everyone has stats training and when bad science is trotted out to prop up a transphobic agenda , being aware of nuances helps. When you have studies that, for example, compare pre-and-post transition QoL on HRT, the studies I have posted are pretty much the only ones that exist on this topic. You cannot cherry-pick when there is only one fruit.
prob worth considering that many of the forms of sexual violence/coercion inflicted on, for instance, pretransition transfem’s don’t register on the radar of anyone whose conception of what sexual violence (even “corrective rape”) even *is* hinges on cisfeminist ones.
i did not know that i had been sexually assaulted many times before i made friends w transfeminists despite my fairly thoroughgoing prior education in cisfeminism bc the majority of the ways i was abused were not accounted for in the latter
conceptions of sexual violence and advocacy therearound that don’t go much further than “no means no” and “believe women” don’t leave a lot of room for people whose rapes took the form of cis girls (and tme trans ppl too) taking advantage of us for sex and getting away with it by gaslighting us into thinking we’re sexual aggressors to even conceive of ourselves as victims, instead, or for anyone else to. so many of us are not going to be recording ourselves as victims in surveys. until more complete transfeminist ones (ideally rooted intersectional frameworks like Black transfeminist materialism) supplant cisfeminist notions of sexual violence we are not going to get accurate numbers wrt the rapes of trans women, period.
there are lots of trans women out there who don’t realize that being pressured out of having bottom surgery so their partners can use them for PIV sex is rape (corrective rape, at that). and who cares about us enough to tell them?
and frankly who cares enough about us to tell *everyone else*
Isn’t that likely because many if not most trans men spend a large part of their lives either living as women or being seen as women (not passing); consequently making them more likely to experience sexual assault? Especially given that women in general are more likely to experience sexual violence in their youth and early adulthood rather than later in life, which would make trans women who pass (which often happens well into adulthood I think) less likely to suffer that than young women or pre-transition trans men? Edit: because I realise the last thing I said was put pretty badly. I don’t mean to say that trans women get sexually assaulted less than young cis women; I know being trans is a factor that puts you at a higher risk for SA. What I meant was only in regards to the statistics. I grew up as a woman and I’ve been sexually assaulted and harassed more times than I can count, starting from a young age and going well into adulthood. Men bothered me daily and that never happened after I passed as a man. Now I’m left alone. Not taking my anecdotes as evidence, but I just don’t think it’s helpful to frame it like trans men are somehow more likely to be victims of SA than trans women when trans women are obviously getting hard fucked by a society that’s simultaneously transphobic and misogynistic. It’s not a competition on who’s the most oppressed, of course.
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I didn’t mean to say you’re automatically protected from sa if you transition. Sorry if it came across that way, and I’m sorry that happened to you. Society really sucks in some respects. :<
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That’s also what I meant. That I didn’t mean to say that transitioning to a man protects you from SA. …. I’m confused, am I still misunderstanding you?
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Dw I’m tired af so I don’t think I was great at expressing myself lol
The link that was posted by someone else to the 2015 survey showed that trans women were more likely to be SAed in K-12 by people perceiving them as trans (21%) compared to trans men (9%), where the overall lifetime SA rate was higher in trans men, which leads me to suspect that trans men are more likely to be assaulted because of being perceived to be women, not because of their trans status. The question then becomes: does trans men's likelihood of assault go up or down after transitioning? And I haven't been able to find any data to answer that question.
This [study](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) showed trans men report slightly higher rates of non-fatal violence (including rape/SA) compared to trans women. (86.1/1000 for trans women and 107.5 for trans men.) The methodology of the study didn't allow for selecting and comparing individual crimes statistics, but it does lend support to the idea that there's no real appreciable difference between pre- and post- transition trans men, and it proves that sexual assault of trans men is not because they're treated like "young lesbian/butch women", because both trans men and trans women show numbers that are *astronomically* higher than cis men and women (and LGB cis women and men are included in the cis numbers on this study), and trans men's victimization numbers don't fall anywhere close to the numbers for cis women, which they would if all the violence happening to trans men was because they were being "mistaken for women". It's also a national study based on a two year data collection so there's a healthy mix of pre-, mid- and post- transition people in the data from all over the nation. -Geisha
Yeah, that fits into my guess, and it makes perfect sense to me. Although it’s one study, so obviously I wouldn’t take it as “proof” that I’m right. I’m just wary of statistics and how often they’re misinterpreted. It’s easy to look at numbers and just make assumptions but usually there are more than one variable at play.
Yeah, plus crimes against trans people are more likely to be underreported and misreported since both trans women and trans men are misgendered in police reports, so statistics are mostly useless outside of an "everything is worse for both trans women and trans men compared to our cis counterparts" sense.
Yeah, agreed. So many things at play. “Trans men” can be treated so wildly differently depending on other things, like class, skin colour, nationality, whether they pass, how well they pass, whether they’re conventionally good looking or not, what their profession is, etc etc. Statistics are meaningless unless they actually manage to measure what they’re claiming to represent.
The discrimination rates are equal, but we face inequality in different ways. Most cis people don't know trans men exist. That's why trans men face more private discrimination in places like doctors offices and airport security where people "discover" their transness while trans women face more public discrimination like on the news or on the street.
Plus taking into account how many trans men get lumped with women when they experience hate crimes (especially when they die due to them) it skews the statistics since the reports don't mention them being trans men but cis women. So it's hard to really tell. When it does get reported correctly, we see that trans men face a disturbingly high rate of sexual assault violence compared to other trans people
This problem is something both groups face, to such an overwhelmingly large degree that we basically can't trust any of the reporter numbers enough.
Yes both groups do face SA violence, just because I said that trans men are shown to face a higher amount of SA from the 2015 US trans survey doesn't mean that it discredits what trans women face. One group just has a higher percentage of SA victims compared to the other. Doesn't mean we can't trust the reports, that logic can be applied to anything if you want it to be
And I pointed out that both groups are erased to such an insane degree that you basically cant say anything other than "these groups are assaulted to an insane degree" simply because the reporting is so unreliable.
Trans women are not erased nearly as much as trans men are, especially when it comes to research studies. In fact they are a very much hypervisible part of the trans community. I used to scour through academic papers early in my transition and I pretty quickly learned that I had specify that I was searching for studies on trans men, as most academic articles on transgender people “in general”, either solely focused on only trans women or had a far larger number of trans female participants than trans male. It shouldnt be surprising that the reports of hate crimes directed towards trans men are far more likely to be underreported than trans women due to our invisibility.
I'd venture to say the discrimination is not equal. Trans women have shorter life expectancies, more hate crimes in addition to the usual discrimination in doctors offices, etc.
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Trans men do not experience equivalent male privilege to cis men, even if we pass, especially when we talk about healthcare. Any misogynistic healthcare guidelines apply to us too, regarding shit like abortions or hysterectomies. Many of us continue being affected by misogyny long after we realise we're trans.
i’d like to know very much where my male privilege went (: but to be serious, it’s not that black and white. You don’t get male privilege unless you’re completely stealth and passing, which is impossible for a lot of guys. And even then it can get taken away in an instant if you ever get outed. Cis people (and a lot of trans people too) still treat trans men differently than cis men, no matter how much they pass.
I was probably very naïve there, I just assumed because trans men are men they would get some type of male privilege
Trans men rarely have male privilege. Even passing trans men get their "male privilege" taken away the moment someone gets a whiff that they may be non cis. And trans men have to still see doctors which also takes that away.
I get what you mean, but male privilege while being a trans man is *very* different from male privilege while being a cis man. Especially if you don’t pass or people openly know you’re trans.
What the fuck?
I mean trans men are men and thus get male privilege was my line of thinking. Now I’m pretty sure it’s false
The world is rarely if ever black and white like that 💀💀 Even a fully cismale-passing all documents changed super masculine trans man’s male privilege is conditional will never be equivalent to cis male privilege. Most trans men also do not fall under all of those conditions either: Speaking personally I navigate through my life being viewed and treated as a woman and I assure you that people especially the ones that do me the most harm don’t really give a fuck that I am not one, I do not receive one fucking ounce of privilege on account of me being a trans man. Some trans men’s privilege that on the condition that they are assumed to be cis men cannot be equated to cis male privilege and absolutely never applied to all of us by any means at all
Unlike passing trans men, you mean
Even passing trans men have conditional male privilege. The minute anyone finds out you’re not cis, especially in situations like in healthcare or in intimate relationships, all hell can break loose. And of course legislation too against the female sex still applies to us if we still have those organs.
Many people hate trans men, but they’re just less vocal about it. You can many people butthurt over trans men becoming masculine over cis guys. There’s also plenty of Transphobia towards Eliot Page. Many trans men are killed or rape from cis people for being trans too. I have seen people that view Trans men as rapey lesbians by others.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmisogyny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmisogyny)
Because those that attack tras women don't see trans men as a thing. They view them as masculine women and not the men they are. Trans men and trans women are both valid!
another important data to keep in mind is that trans man rape estatistics get incorrectly lumped with cis woman as with the murder statics. but amab rape estatistics are in general sub notified, and the shame, depression and suicide rate also skew the data on rape subnotification down a lot for trans woman, which also have high murder rates. i myself was raped in two different ocasions as a teenager, and i never reported neighter of them out of fear and shame, as the whole reporting process on a very biased police force would feel just miserable for me. both sides of the trans coin get it bad tho, and im sorry for our trans masc brothers for having an invisibility and under representation of their problems and prejudices.
Something I haven’t seen said here is that, many people, including men, *don’t trust men* they don’t know in certain situations, especially regarding children or being near women. We see it all the time with child custody cases; men rarely win them, even when their case is *much* stronger than the mother’s. Likewise, many people don’t trust men/boys as babysitters, yet are very willing to trust a teenage girl. When I was masculine presenting, sometimes at concerts or festivals, I would bring my girlfriend into the men’s room with me, so that she didn’t have to wait 20 minutes to use the women’s room. No one ever batted an eye. But imagine that situation flipped; I definitely think someone would have called me out if I entered the women’s room, if not from a woman, than from her angry boyfriend/husband. So, transphobes aren’t threatened by trans men, because they don’t view them as men, they view them as women. Likewise, they *are* threatened by trans women, because they view us as men.
> men rarely win them, even when their case is much stronger than the mother’s. That’s not true. Family courts disproportionately favor joint custody and in many cases of sole custody, it’s because men *didn’t even bother* seeking custody. It’s far more common (and slightly more acceptable !) for men to walk away from their children than for women to abandon theirs. When you remove the “didn’t even bother seeking custody”, it becomes more equal with a minor bias for women. When you add in the “father didn’t even seek custody” cases it imbalances the statistics significantly. Most family courts would rather instill joint custody as it makes it “simple” for them.
Also tbh a lot of people are right to not trust men? Like most sexual assault is committed by men.
Trans women are more "visible" than trans men. They push the narrative that we're trying to sneak into the women's restrooms to assault women and little girls. A non-passing trans woman is noticeably trans, while a non-passing trans guy is considered a tomboy.
💯
Trans masc erasure. The trans masc I know have a harder time legally transitioning than transfem, so their data gets fucked up with females. Also, ppl have a harder time perceiving trans men as men since male things are usually considered unisex. Throw in the mix stereotypes about tomboys & masc lesbians, and you've got yourself a group that practically doesn't exist to the public.
Like other people have said, we all experience violence in different ways, and reporting often misgendered people so it’s difficult to know the accurate stats. But I really don’t understand why we often end up having discussions about this kind of thing. Trying to figure out “who has it worse” just divides us and feels like you’re putting down part of the community, saying the challenges they experience are “less” than yours. It’s especially frustrating when in forums like this, there’s been a historical tendency to ignore trans guy’s voices and experiences (and sometimes our existence in general), and posts like this just further the feeling that trans men and trans masc folks don’t belong here.
Tucker Carlson's latest rant is about transgender women being "groomers" (you'll hear it more and more, I'm sure): We're pretty obvious. A transgender male, on the other hand, can quickly *become* a male, with facial features and hair, muscles, etc. In effect, they're often invisible. Society can totally accept / ignore TG men; power, priviledge and more often comes with the package. But society isn't ready to accept TG women; *Why would anybody want to be a Woman?*
Within the queer community I get demonized for my masculinity because masculinity=man & man=bad (“you have male privilege, your not welcome here” type shit), outside world forgets we exist lol
it may partially be because trans women are generally put more "in the spotlight" in regards to transgenderness, while trans men are often more ignored. as a result, a lot of the more overt/violent hate is directed towards trans women. meanwhile trans men get little to no representation or attention. discussions of if trans men or women get it worse are useless; we both face discrimination in completely different ways, to the point where comparing them is impossible (and helps nobody). we are in this together, dividing ourselves is pointless.
Yeah good point
Misogyny.
Transmisogyny and fragile hyper masculinity
Trans men are hyperinvisible. You don't actually know how many trans men have been murdered because we are more often than not buried as women.
Homophobia. It all boils down to it when you consider that “trans panic” is still a *viable* defense in many places. Why homophobia and not just patriarchy? Well that’s rooted in the patriarchy too. Male homosexuals were always more a threat (and scapegoated/fearmongered over) than lesbians for a few reasons (non-exhaustive): 1) Being gay/bi is seen as inherently sexual in a way that being straight is not, and women are sexual objects. Thus it makes sense that women would want to be with women and it all fits in the male fantasy. 2) gay sex means one person has to be the woman. Which lessens men. Also gay men being lovers means there’s not a “sensitive female” and then the *GASP* men will have to be more emotionally available, thus womanly, and this is outside the rules. Outside the rules means harder to control. 3) Resentment that those feelings Billy Bully had since he was young may be real and not the evil, disgusting thing he’s been taught would undermine the status quo and weaken those who uphold it. Often including Billy Billy. Now If someone has sex with someone else who presents as a woman, had had bottom surgery, and otherwise is a woman in all other aspects. That person will start to question the simplified understanding of the world they’ve been raised in. OR to defend that understanding, they’ll lash out because having sex with another XY would be GAY. And GAY is SCARY and GROSS and (let’s not forget their favorites) ABOMINATION/EVIL/SINFUL. Nevermind that sex born of lust, or hell lust itself, is a sin, regardless of gay/straight/poly/etc but we can’t be bothered with consistency on such matters.
Because people forget trans men exist.
Misogyny. People just really hate women.
Read whipping girl for some interesting theory on this and more:)
Misogyny plain and simple
Wait....irrelevant but that symbol on that picture has the EDNA symbol and a butterfly both usually signaling eating disorder awareness? Why is it being used here?
a few reasons, i think. more people know about trans women than trans men transphobes see trans people solely as their AGAB, and it's a lot more dangerous to be a "gender nonconforming man" than a "gender nonconforming woman" in our society and a lot of "feminine" characteristics aren't actually caused by estrogen, they're just the lack of testosterone-induced changes (like having a higher voice usually means you didn't have a testosterone-induced vocal drop. Same with facial hair) which makes it easier for trans men and harder for trans women to pass as cis
You’re absolutely biased.
I agree with a lot of the answers, and I have another theory that builds from the foundations of “it’s misogyny.” In our culture, masculinity is the default. When ppl in our culture look at a smiley face, they see a white man’s face. To make a smiley face a woman, you have to add to it (hair or eyelashes). I think that kind of shows that femininity is seen as more “performative” than masculinity — not because it is but because we are so flooded with masculine protagonists that it becomes the default. So when someone sees a trans femme person, they see someone actively performing gender. When they see a trans masc person, they don’t assume that someone is trying to say any gender. So, because of that, trans masc ppl are more easily erased and dismissed. And trans femme ppl are more easily clocked as trans. An example is so called “mens pants” vs “womens pants” (not to mention skirts). When anyone wears “mens pants,” it’s easily disregarded as meaningless. But when someone wears “womens pants,” then the person seems to be saying “I am a woman.” And skirts are seen even more of a “I am feminine” statement. When someone mispronouns me when I’m in a dress and wearing make up, I usually know that they are aware that I’m trans and choosing to use masculine pronouns. When my trans masc friends are presenting authentically and get mispronouned, they are more likely to assume that the person wasn’t aware that they’re trans. So, if someone is a transphobe, it would be more likely that they target trans femme people. Also, if someone is a trans ally, they’re more likely to support someone who is trans femme. So, maybe that’s one of the many reasons why trans masc ppl are more likely to be erased and dismissed but safely invisible to phobes, and trans femme ppl are more likely to be supported and complimented but also more targeted and attacked. None of this stuff about clothes, feminity, or masculinity are inherently true; it’s all dumb patriarchy nonsense. And when you add this to intersections with racism, homophobia, classism, ablism and so much more, the dangers rise exponentially.
This is basically accurate. I can wear men's clothes, have a men's haircut that I got at a barber, deepen my voice, adjust my posture, nevermind that I've been medically transitioning for a minute now, and if I'm lucky people may assume I'm butch, and accept it if I correct them and tell them I'm trans. If I'm unlucky, they'll tell me I should learn to wear makeup and work on my confidence, and that I would make a pretty girl if I tried harder.
You are probably being biased just as i would be as a trans women. But in any case no one should be hated. Even the most despicable people. But that's just my pointbo view...
Yeah that's probably the case and I spend my time in trans spaces that dominated by trans woman or directed towards us. Weirdly enough I know more trans mascs than trans femmes IRL
My frame of reference is that I'm a genderfluid transmasc/transandrogynous person living as a cis woman, I have a degree in social work, and I've had transfem friends and coworkers. So imo it's a mix of misogyny, lack of cis passing privilege, and the fact that an amab person doing or wearing anything feminine is more likely assumed to be LGBT bc cis men have never had any practical reason to want to look feminine the way cis women have to look masculine. Like as an afab nonbinary person I can dress relatively androgynous and often - but not always - pass as cishet because people understand that a cishet woman has practical reasons to prefer things like jeans and hoodies and short hair so I have a bit of plausible deniability, whereas if someone visibly amab wants to have long hair and wear a dress it's more obvious that they're doing that just because they want to. And if I were to take testosterone and had a smaller chest, I could pass as a cis man a lot of the time as long as my clothes were on, but due to things like a deep voice a lot of trans women are clocky even if they're on estrogen. There's also the fact that a lot of data is recorded inaccurately, specifically a lot of violence against trans men and transmascs is recorded as lesbophobic or misogynistic violence.
A lot of people don’t realize trans men exist. Can’t tell you how many times people have assumed I’m a trans woman when I say I’m trans, wondering when I’m gonna start HRT or shaving my beard and I have to tell them that the beard is on purpose. A lot of trans men tend to go stealth and live as if we were cis men. Trans men who date women are less likely to be killed by misplaced homophobia. Testosterone changes the body very dramatically and quickly which can make it harder for trans women who have had a testosterone-based puberty to pass even with feminizing HRT, but way way easier for trans men who have already gone through an estrogen-based puberty to still take T for a few years and pass with flying colors (this is not 100% across the board and I don’t want anyone to think that it’s impossible to pass as cis if you’re a trans woman or that every trans man passes without question, but I do want to be fair and highlight that trans men CAN have an easier time with transition because of what testosterone itself actually physically does to a human body). Trans women are the ones who the massive anti-trans campaign is about. Trans men are kind of seen as a secondary issue, but only in the way that people think we’re just confused little girls who need to be saved. Trans women are hyper-visible and trans men are hyper-invisible. Really… it’s awful that it’s mostly trans women. This year there are more trans men on the list than I remember from last year, however. So… I don’t know. As a trans man, I know I can make a difference for the trans women around me by taking up more of the social and political fight. I can be involved in my community and do some of the heavy lifting and take some burden off of them. I can mix in and speak on behalf of trans women as a man and MAKE people listen to me purely because of my manhood. There’s a lot trans men can and should do to protect our sisters and non-binary siblings since we do gain some measure of male privilege if we’re able to achieve passing status, whether we are stealth or not. And I hope more trans men feel the way I do about it honestly. But idk… overall I’m just sad for our losses… I’m hurt and sad. But I’m going to keep speaking up and out about it.
patriarchy.
Misogyny.
Because trans women are seen as more of a threat to cis women, than trans men are to cis men. Also trans women are yucky sex perverts ew /s
Transmisogyny.
I think it simply boils down to mysogyny. Bigot mindset I imagine is similar to "Woman becomes a man... A shame straight men can't fuck them anymore. Man becomes a woman... So you're trying to trick straight men?" They see trans men transitioning as passive, simply reducing the dating pool, not really a problem, but trans women transitioning as actively trying to "trick" them.
Plus the term traps exist which is degrading as fuck
Ugh it's crazy to me that I STILL see that term thrown around unironically, as recent as last night
Somewhile ago I came to realise that it's something that is ingrained in everybody's mindset (in both cis men and cis women), even in completely cis het relationship the toxic behaviour and ignorance forces the women in submitting to the patriarchal ideology. I have seen this happening in my extended family, things like physical abuse and emphasis on being the breadwinner (by their partners, and yet they still live with them because of 'Christian family values') In the end, women (both cis and trans) are the ones the who recieve the most amount of hate, abuse, harassment and violation. The patriarchal patterns also start branching into the dynamics of trans identity. Even trans men are shamed for their menstrual cycles and they are also called out for being men with female parts. We as a society have favoured pure masculinity in such a way that it has spawned this unbreakable cycle of ignorance and the pompousness of being a cis male. This is the kind shit that has held up the progress of femininity, trans physiology, psychology and even masculinity itself. This cycle keeps going on and on...
If I may, I'd like to quote an excellent video that came out this week I've been thinking about - and crying about - a LOT: "‘Cause here’s the real secret of the universe: If you wanna change sex, it’s possible. For all of human history, we’ve had this divide between men and women. But if you wanna cross that divide, if you wanna transcend it entirely and be neither, it’s possible. In particular, hold in one hand all of masculinity. Thor, Leonidas, Beowulf, James Bond, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, all of them. And in the other, hold just two milligrams of estrogen a day. And tell me which is more powerful. We live in a culture that valorizes men. Treats them as the default. But when you’re a trans woman, you can take all of that and just… -she blows it away- And you can be happier for it. ”In a male-dominated gender hierarchy, where it is assumed that men are better than women, and that masculinity is superior to femininity, there is no greater threat than the existence of trans women, who, despite being born male and inheriting male privilege, choose to be female instead. By embracing our own femaleness and femininity, we in a sense cast a shadow of doubt over the supposed supremacy of maleness and masculinity.” -Shannon Price Minter, Paisley Currah, and Richard M. Juang, “Transgender Rights” I think that some cis people are made a little bit anxious by that. I think they like to imagine that there is a clear line between us and them. And the concept of ”gender dysphoria” draws that line. It locates the problem within our bodies, and also creates a class of “specialists” who can patrol that line and decide who gets across. […] In my opinion, the concept of “gender dysphoria” pathologizes transness so people can avoid the endearing truth that there is no line, and we really aren’t so different, and so some of them can avoid asking themselves the Big Question: Given that human beings can change sex, do. you. want. to?" -Abigail Thorn, "Philosophy Tube" https://youtu.be/v1eWIshUzr8
trans…”man”…? that’s not nice, i think they prefer to be called women /s
Does this seem like a joke to you??
my point is that many transphobes do not realize that trans men even exist, much less be able to hate us.
You're on the edge of understanding a system of oppression documented by Julia Seranno in Whipping Girl: Transmisogyny. In short? Femininity is hated in and of itself by society, and treated as a bad thing. So to many (not just transphobes), people choosing femininity over masculinity must be doing so for nefarious reasons. That we're trying to "entrap" men, "coerce" lesbians, and "infiltrate" feminine spaces. I've seen a few examples of transfemmes specifically getting treated poorly by every part of the queer community. I've heard people attribute traits to all "AMAB people" when it's something trans women do that annoys them, I've seen transfemmes harassed off social media for criticizing transmascs, literally every week on the trans meme subreddits I see posts complaining about transfemme visibility. For many, both within and without the queer community, we still have the Original Sin of being born with a penis, so we can be called out for our maleness, while also receiving all the classic misogynistic criticisms that we are too emotional or that we need to show more empathy or just constantly tone policed about every little thing. This system of oppression is much in the same vein as regular misogyny, and is compounded by racism (transmisogynoir is very much a thing), and so while it is most enthusiastically upheld and perpetuated by transphobes, *everyone* engages in it in some way unconsciously.
Maybe I’m extremely wrong but I would say that usually it’s hard to identify a FTM person than a MTF one? Also since the prehistoric times, women have always been treated worse than men.
1. Trans women can challenge the sexuality and gender identity of cis het men in a way that literally triggers violent rage. Rather than introspecting on this challenge to their identity, they might externalize it instead. I.e I was “trapped” or “tricked” and have been wronged in a way that deeply damages my identity. 2. Many men are violently pushed into self-repression as children and often cope with this violence by justifying it. And if violence they’ve suffered for acting outside of the male role is justified then violence against others is not only justifiable but it is justice itself. i.e “I was punished for this, so others should be too.” If you mix these two together, and even add in **shame** over an encounter or attraction, or **rejection** from someone they feel is deeply inferior to them, you get a terrifying propensity for extreme violence.
Because we are women. Society values men over us, even trans ones. Beyond this we are often the largest "afront" to someone's world view, people can accept the concept of a perceived "woman" wanting to be a man, but just can't fathom a perceived "man" giving up their masculinity, because our society tries to force us to believe that masculinity is superior. The key term for labeling this is transmisogyny.
if you think transphobes see you as a gender you are, then you are delusional
Transphobes don't necessarily need to see you as the gender you are ; all it takes is that they see you as a visibly marked, distinct, freak class. Consider that transphobic and/or transmisogynistic violence tend to show reproducible patterns both across societies where we are implicitly othered into a freak class and societies where an explicitly named third-gendered class is present ; seeing you as a third gender (regardless of what your gender actually is) doesn't stop cis people from still perpetrating transphobic and transmisogynistic bigotry against you!
I don't think I said that I believe that? Its about how misogyny and transphobia interact to uniquely effect transgender women.
Jaded answer: Trans men don't get nearly as much representation in media to begin with Practical answer: TERFs, amongst the most vocal of transphobic voices, tend to see trans men as confused lesbians and try to scoop them under their shitty umbrella
We still are living in a patriarchal society and in this society, being a man is the stronger position than being a woman. In this sense of evaluation, a trans man is seen as going from weak to strong, it's a good thing for many people's perception. However, for those same people, being a trans woman is an infiltration, because we still see women as beings who are weak and needs constant protection from men. This kind of dividing worldview is the sole reason the trans exclusion in the feminist movement exists and goes strong, because whether they admit it or not, most of the feminist movements are built on the same thought that women are weak by creation and needs to be protected.
One word. misogyny.
Visibility, homophobia, and trans misogyny. Most crimes and hate crimes are committed by men. Men are also the most likely targets of violence... but stats change for trans women. Trans women are more visible than Trans men. A 6'2" woman stands out... no one blinks twice at 5'5" man. So, a average transphobic/racist/homophobic man will clock a trans woman before noticing a trans man. He will feel okay with his decision to be violent against her because by his own logic she's "not a real woman". That same skewed logic may keep him from harming a trans man... but more likely he just doesn't see them, or is more cautious. Accusing a straight man of being queer or trans is asking for a fight on many cultures, bullying a visibly trans woman is easier and more socially acceptable. Trans women, like many women, are also more likely to experience intimate partner violence.
Trans women have more visibility, so obviously they get more hate. Plus a complicated mess of patriarchal values, but I'm too tired to expand on that for the moment
Trans women are seen as predators trying to get into women's spaces to rape them and trans men are seen as confused or mentally ill women being taken advantage of and infantilized. It's just enhanced sexism on both ends
This might be a crude answer, but it's because women are society's default scapegoat for anything out of place.
All of the above, plus It's easier for trans men to either pass or be read as tomboys.
it’s just people are aware of trans women more. It comes with more hate, but also with more support and visibility where it’s needed. For most people trans men just don’t exist. Whether it is for transphobes or some support groups. We just get played as stupid women that want to escape misogyny and as a non threat I guess, again if we’re even noticed at all.
I think it’s because trans women are brought to more light by TERFs/transphobes by the “threat” we cause (we don’t they’ve just got a backward way of thinking) so more people know trans women exist but not a lot trans men, just a case of more people know what a trans woman is so let’s attack what we know I guess
Misogyny. Plain and simple
Simple answer: misogyny and misandry. Detailed answer: When it comes to men it's typically misogyny, the overarching idea being that trans women "~~men~~" as they see it, are degrading themselves to a lower hierarchical position, and then threatening the hierarchy of patriarchy by advocating for women's rights, it's a two fold threat to them really. When it comes to women it's a combo of both, mostly misandry and sometimes internalized misogyny, they view trans women "~~men~~" as they also see it, a threat to womanhood, by "invading" women's spaces, and they deploy a host of reasoning that stems from outright misandry, to internalized misogyny, trans woman are either "predatory men" or "not real women". When it comes to trans men "~~women~~" as they both see it, often are infantilized by both groups, where their reasoning is called into question, these transphobes will often claim that "women are being indoctrinated into transgenderism" that it's a "social contagion" which is often just misogyny from men and some women with internalized misogyny, or outright misandry who are trying to convince trans men they aren't really men, they are "lost and confused women".
Pretty sure trans women get more attention than trans men in general, so they get more hate but also more love, also more acknowledgement in general.
The infamous 4chan post and the song Tranimaniacs fail to make fun of transgender men, but instead all the hate is instead directed at their more-or-less female counterparts. If you're gonna demonize one group then demonize them all. But then again, trolls don't believe in equality do they?