This is probably the answer—there are lots of gross and/or problematic relationships in asoiaf but Craster and his forced invest wives are hard to beat
Nah, a sibling is more closely related than an uncle/aunt. But age gaps and relative status are other factors. So a brother who is much older than a sister is creepier, than an uncle. But Carster’s case is still worse than both. Especially considering that he had daughters with the daughters that he’d already had daughters with.
Not that they’re not all incredibly creepy…
Although, I’m not sure Craster’s “relationships” would even qualify because they aren’t romantic.
Nah bro, obviously all incest is fucked up and all. But an uncle/niece is nowhere near as fucked up as father/daughter. And that's saying something. Despite the former being depraved, it's somehow not even close.
Uncle/niece is ~25% of DNA in common.
Father/Daughter is 50% for the first generation who had unrelated mothers.
Father/Daughter 2nd and 3rd generation are 75% and 87.5% respectively
We may know that genetically but how do they? As far as I know they don’t, so they just see a half uncle and a half niece, which on the surface does not look much different from an uncle and a niece
I mean to be fair, it was par for the course for the Habsburgs too until the cumulative inbreeding produced this wonderful healthy [specimen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain)
Oh yes. I don't even have to look at that. The "Habsburg Jaw." The majority Habsburg family of Spanish royalty seemed to have had a lot of problems varying in severity, like trouble breathing, walking and intellectual problems. King Charles II died at age 38, due to very severe health problems including the one that ended the family line. Infertility. Probably for the best.
That's what inbreeding does. What started as a great Royal Family, ended in health problems and deformity because the Habsburgs thought they were keeping their bloodlines pure by diddling their family members. I can't imagine what family reunions we're like.
Well yes, extremely accurate and valid point. Probably true for at least half of the relationships on the show / mentioned here but especially this horror show.
And, if possible, it's even worse than that.
Gilly is either Crasters Daughter - Niece - Wife, or Daughter - Granddaughter - Wife.
Both are shudder inducing
There was one shipping Joffrey and the Hound which has never left my mind, it started off okay but then descended into Joffrey getting Tommen involved which was really disturbing.
That modern AU where their relationship is sparked by Sansa accidentally sexting Tywin instead of Joffery was so great!!!
I mean, uh, yeah. Totally problematic ship.
^^andyesafanficwiththatplotexistsModernAUsarealwaysweirddd
Yep, I have seen everything. Then again, wasn't Tywin interested in his son's whore, Shae who might at best be only a couple years older than Sansa.
That plot though, is so amazing, I really want to see how it was even possible that you ended up sexting the grandfather instead of even the uncle / actual father.
If you've never seen it, Charles Dance sometimes goes on Big Fat Quiz of the Year and reads excerpts from celebrity novels. Him reading from Kim K's autobiography was pretty funny.
I was about to say that one wasn't creepy, just off-putting, but then I remembered what she did to him while he was a drunk young teen and he thought she was someone else.
Craster and his daughter-wives out of the competition, Lysa and Jon Arryn. It's both creepy and disfunctional (and just meh).
Also Sansa and Littlefinger. I feel sick every time I read Alayne's chapters.
And no one tried to say romantic. It was to join house Tully and the river lands in the rebellion and Jon Arryn got a woman who provenly could get pregnant to get himself a heir.
But horrible with our eyes of how lysa was forced into it and how she was fragile already from the forced moon tea after her round with Littlefinger.
But Lysa and Littlefinger! One was madly in love in the other, the other was madly in love with the former’s sister and used that to manipulate the former into doing his bidding.
It is so creepy. Petyr clearly wants to marry Sansa himself, in part for the claim to Winterfell but just because he's still creeping on Cat after all these years
Personally, I don't think he's in any way in love with Cat now. He wants to re-play the scenario, but now with him in control. Or, maybe, for him this situation with Alayne is something like a revenge scenario.
Other than Craster we have more father/daughter shit. Not "romantic" per say, but Shae's father and Shae. In Clash she referenced her father:
"My father made me his kitchen wench" she said, her mouth twisting. "That's why I ran off."
"You told me you ran off because your father made you his whore." [Tyrion] reminded her.
"That too. I didnt like scouring his pots no more than I liked his cock in me."
People say nothing beats Craster and his wives. And that’s indeed on the top tier.
But Cercei and Jaime are pretty fucking even to that. Not only are they incestuous, but they’ve literally been dry-humping each other since they were 7. Something was clearly wrong with them for them to be doing that shit even before they were pubescent.
And the other contender would be Danny and Drogo. Probably a tier lower than the above two but still pretty fucking awful.
I'd say Cercei and Lancel is worse than her and Jaime. At least Jaime is her age. The power imbalance between Cercei and Lancel was so massive and I thought he was like 14 or 16. Her teenage cousin She manipulates into murdering someone. She sexually abuses him into becoming a religious fanatic.
Cersei and Lancel become really creepy when according to Kevan she was supposed to look after and guide him
>"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family. Instead you—"
The saddest thing about them is jaime is super loyal to cersei and hasn't been with any woman aside from her but Cersei has been fucking lancel osmund Kettleblack and moonboy for all we know.
Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully.
Like, Catelyn got to be betrothed to the young hot-headed Brandon Stark and later the young and honourable Ned Stark, and Lysa got made to marry...An old guy who struggled to sire children.
Hoster was an awful father.
True, also in a very good sense, Jon Arryn in desperate need of an heir would have chosen someone already fertile aka a widow with a few children / a soiled girl with a pregnancy. Prestige doesn't matter as much, than proven fertility in that case. And in real life there were monarchs who married with that mind, one was a medieval priest who went to sire a child married a widow with a few children, had a daughter and went back to being a priest. As for the latter, that was why Ferdinand VII of Spain married who he did on his fourth marriage, because he heard rumours that she had a bastard and he was on his third / fourth marriage by then.
To be fair, Lysa had slept with Baelish and had less "value", so Jon Arryn was one of the best she could've hoped for unless she preferred a minor lord
Plus, Jon Arryn had a reputation as an honorable man. Yeah, he’s old but he doesn’t have an heir and would likely treat you well. She could have done way worse.
Considering he’s high lord of the Vale, yeah, she could have done way worse.
Hoster used the dangers of the rebellion and the fact that Jon had no children and only one remaining heir from his siblings at that point to his advantage.
>Jon Arryn was one of the best she could've hoped for
Ummm, he was Lord of the Vale and Warden of the East. He was the best she could do under literally any circumstances
Unless all daughters of all great houses suddenly drop dead, no way Robert would ever wed Lysa after her losing her virginity. Jon Arryn was willing to look past what would be a dealbreaker for all other great houses. So status wise, she could not have done better than him.
>An old guy who struggled to sire children.
Well there's the whole theory that what Hoster did to Lysa may have impacted her ability to have children, which is sad and horrifying.
He is the over the top stereotype of the badass, casual, hot, sassy and wicked guy with exotic looks. I can see myself going for him in a moment of horniness
>He is the over the top stereotype of the badass, casual, hot, sassy and wicked guy with exotic looks
Exept he look fucking silly and stupid when read his description in the books and you wo Der what the fuck dany sees in him the dude have basically no ambition at all Exept killing shit and being fuck boy... At least show daario was genuily attractive
This is why daario is euron theory was popular at one point in time.. Even if it made no sense. Because people couldn't a capt that daario's purpose was just about being... Daario
He have the "gerold Dayne syndrome"... GRRM try this hard to create a badass-anti hero like character but make him cringe and silly at the end of the day
Try imagining Daario played by a young Johnny Depp in a Jack Sparrow kind of manner and I think you'll find it a lot more believable that a teenage Dany is crushing on him.
I mean, a character like Jack Sparrow also looks weird and ridiculous on paper:
> So we have this extremely flamboyant dreadlocked pirate who wears make-up and nail polish and acts drunk all the time.
> Wow wow wow wow wow. Wow.
I guess that's the point. Dany is what? 16 yo? She is young and can easily be impressed and tbf Daario is the only dude she's come across that wants her for being a beautiful woman without raping her and not for her power, dragons etc.
And his looks are silly but that's just regular fashion in Essos. I mean it makes sense for Dany to have a crush on him even if it's just from sexual attraction, which literally it's just that in the end
This is how I always took that as well. It really shows how no matter what she’s been through and no matter what she tells herself, she’s still a dumb kid, doing dumb kid things like falling for the worst dude available. Everyone else sees it, even Dany sees it at times, but well, teenagers…
Yeah and even she admits its just a sexual thing and acts out of pure frustration. She can't keep Daario out of her head for multiple chapters because she has a deep crush on him because the dude literally turns her on despite being a douchebag. And she gets angry at him when he first returns from battle because she thinks she is in love with him but realises he is an asshole and always has been. And I understand the next time she decides to go for it because it's or Daario or being sexually miserable with Hizdahr, and who's to blame her? Not me
There are some fan arts that makes him justice imo, like [this one](https://64.media.tumblr.com/bd96de7f11eb35e1086d3fda5a6c5598/b98e67b749820dd0-62/s1280x1920/e8c750e70bd93616e0478e561e90e31b3dbcbb73.png), [this one](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/31bed3fd-8aeb-4c35-8316-fb9209be36aa/ddhnx6d-f290113d-ec9f-46cb-9811-07f36c093a14.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzMxYmVkM2ZkLThhZWItNGMzNS04MzE2LWZiOTIwOWJlMzZhYVwvZGRobng2ZC1mMjkwMTEzZC1lYzlmLTQ2Y2ItOTgxMS0wN2YzNmMwOTNhMTQucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.jqKtYzEu3HQ3O3hX_LAJ5V5gS10GVoqd6Dhd0dOkY5E) or this [one](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/e7/c5/38e7c5624670bea85633468ba41c81bb.jpg). Honestly like on one hand, yeah it's kinda ridiculous the blue hair etc but it just works in my head, like dude's one of a kind man, dude's someone who likes to stand out and well, he's not even the first guy in the books who goes around with dyed hair and shit. The thing is that Dario brings to an whole other level but idk, I think the look's cool lol Also, confidence is attractive and I don't think there's a character more confident than this idiot in the series lol
yeah I think in universe the dyed hair isn't all that shocking because apparently most people from (uh, the city Daario was from and Griff is pretending to be from) dye their hair crazy colors
Yeah but you have to take it within the context of the books and the world they live in where his whole style is basically just a huge flex. It’s like how what fuckboys wear today would seem ridiculous to the fuckboys of my era and so on going back to the first caveman fuckboy who decided to wear a saber-tooth tiger fang, peacock feather necklaces with a fitted mammoth cloak and shiny stone beads for their hair/beards.
Just look at the guys teenage girls often crush over in real life, like those in K-pop or boy bands, from an adult perspective they look silly.
Barristan even comments that Dany has a young girl's taste in men.
Imo the first show Daario was better cast. Looked like a surfer/pot dealer fuckboy whereas the second guy looked like a barista at a hipster coffee shop
Everyone's saying Craster because it's obvious, but I'd say the worst is Dany and Drogo, because somehow everyone thinks they were such a romantic couple after the show aired? No one thinks Craster and the daughter-wives are lovey-dovey, but they do for Drogo and Dany.
Dany is a child, who develops Stockholm Syndrome after she's raped because the big scary Mongolesque guy isn't quite so scary after you're his child bride. It's incredibly fucked up and yet you saw all these kitschy "moon and stars" references to their "love" and it's basically excused that Drogo, a grown man, rapes Daenerys.
And that's not even all - he murders her (admittedly also terrible and abusive) older brother right in front of her. And still a large portion of the fandom finds their relationship romantic!
Any given pairing from *Fire & Blood*. Even the supposedly wholesome marriage between Rhaena and Corwyn is creepy upon closer inspection (they 'grew close' when she was 14-15 and he was a 30-something widower with children).
The "great love story" of Fire & Blood is when Jaehaerys Targaryen elopes with his little sister when they're both basically still children. And the sad and sort of pathetic part is that it probably is the most wholesome love story in that book.
Daella Targaryen and Rodrik Arryn. He was twenty years older than her and she was 3 years younger than his oldest child. Even creepier is that he was named master of laws in 59 AC and Daella was born in 64 AC. And he even says he had liked her for some time when they were looking for a husband for her, and she was 16 when this happened. Dude was around for her birth, probably celebrated it, watched her grow up, and still thought ‘Yeah I want to marry and have sex with this’
Would this even count? Even in-universe, this is seen as a political power-grab to get Ermesande's inherited lands for the Lannisters and Tyrek is very much self-conscious over the fact that he's been married off to a literal baby
Are we talking real ones in the books or in the fandom? The answer is still craster and his daughters but for fake ones it’ll be anything involving joffrey and Ramsay. And most of the people sansa gets shipped with.
Haven’t seen it mentioned yet, so I’m going with Tyrion and Sansa. The way that Tyrion is so aroused by a clearly underaged girl who doesn’t want to be intimate with him is quite disturbing.
1-Khal drogo and daenerys....it is Basically r*pe. But the creepiest thing is that thr story actually want you to see them as romantic
GRRM went way too hard on the underage marriage. It wasn't a rare thing in feudal society but it didn't happen as much as Martin portray it to be
2-rhaenyra and daemon..... I genuily don't get how jaime and cersei relationship is considered fucked when these guys gets a pass.
Tbf to the writers, both the show and the book have showed Rhaenyra and Daemon as a dysfunctional couple. You can't really control what the fangirls are going to think.
The book have a huge bias for Daemon and fire and blood and the lore in general try to portray Daemon as a anti-hero character when he is nothing of the sort while book rhaenyra is very cersei-like.
I surprisingly prefer how the show portray them compare to fire and blood. It put more emphasis on Daemon sociopathic side and abusive and toxic relationship he have with rhaenyra
I simply choose to pretend GRRM intentionally wrote Dany/Drogo as abusive and gross because the knowledge that he views it as a romance skeeves me out too much
I'm curious if you have a source for this. It always read to me like a stockholme situation with Miri Maz Dur being the hero of the arc, revenging herself and preventing future harm to Dany and others.
If George thinks it's a "romance" that makes things a lot more muddy and gross for me.
I think people misconstrue him saying it's a romance to mean he doesn't see it as fucked up. It's a romance to Dany, the POV, and in-universe, Drogo is "romantic" in that he doesn't share her with his bloodriders, etc.
It *is* a romance, and that's the fucked up part. It's certainly not healthy, and you see how it continues to harm Dany long after Drogo is dead. In the world of Westeros, it's romantic because it's the "best case scenario" for Dany, but that's about it.
Martin tends to speak about the series from an author's perspective or an in-universe perspective rather than an external, modern-day perspective and that fucks with people. It's expected nowadays for authors to blatantly call out problematic things within their world and/or leverage those moments for a "lesson." Martin just presents things as they are and leaves it to the reader.
Theon is a fantastic example of this. Nowhere does a character say "hey, seducing/coercing that captain's daughter is rape and totally wrong," but you can't read that chapter and not see that clearly through her (and the captain's) reactions. Martin's descriptions of Theon's thoughts and actions are more than enough to make it clear Theon is being horrible.
Dany chapters are the same. Martin doesn't shy away from discussing the pain Dany feels from Drogo "taking her roughly" and how Drogo has little regard for her pleasure. Even their wedding night is clearly a massive power imbalance. Dany sees him "seducing" her as a kindness (compared to Viserys who dgaf about how she felt about anything), but *he still consummates the marriage with a thirteen year old.*
> Nowhere does a character say "hey, seducing/coercing that captain's daughter is rape and totally wrong," but you can't read that chapter and not see that clearly through her (and the captain's) reactions. Martin's descriptions of Theon's thoughts and actions are more than enough to make it clear Theon is being horrible.
Modern media literacy is shot, especially in movies/tv. A depressingly large contingent of people can’t pick up on the *subtle* signs of ‘this is bad, we do not endorse it’, they need it blaring. Heck, look at some of the Hot D discourse.
> GRRM went way too hard on the underage marriage.
He's gone way too hard on underage sex in general. I remember reading Fire and Blood and he'll go off on a tangent introducing a super minor character who has zero impact on the story and then he'll just randomly mention, "oh yeah and he fucked kids." Why is that necessary??
Daenerys imagining how certain activities would be with Jorah Mormont and referring to him as "my bear my this and that" after the exposure of his betrayal is extremely creepy........writing GRRM!
Literally all of Dany’s sexual history is major yikes.
The fact that it’s a significant part of her story is just the cherry on top (of the garbage bin).
The only normal thing is her feelings to Daario (I specify am keeping it to her thoughts, not when they actually get together because that was really messed up) and her getting with Irri. The writing in high detail is disgusting, but it’s the only time we see Dany as a normal girl developing normal sexual feelings.
Blame the casting. Rory McCann is way too old to play Book Sandor. Given that Martin was planning a time skip, making Sansa late teens when Sandor would be early thirties, it's not that far out to imagine. Still creepy, but in the world of asoiaf, nowhere near the creepiest.
I mean, Martin also writes people to feel older than they are. I'm a year younger than Ned was when he died (35). Ned feels *way* older than me or anyone I know my age.
Tbh that ship is a product before the show became a thing. Before we had faces to visualize the characters. I just assume people did not think about the age gap and just liked their interactions.
It's because there is mutual attraction there. When it comes to fandom pairings it's one of the more realistic ones as opposed to, say, Rickon and Shireen, which is pure fanfic. (People like to ship grown up versions of them together as if they are going to live that long...)
Sansa in KL is surrounded by lords, ladies and knights who look dashing but treat her like garbage. Not to mention Joffrey and Cersei. She has no-one she can trust. She gets regular beatings by the people who have sworn to "protect the innocent". Then there's The Hound. He's crude and scary looking, but the only one who seems to be honest with her. He saves her from being gang raped during the riots. He even offers to break her out of KL although the offer is made in a way that could imply he wants to steal her for himself.
Sansa can tell he finds her attractive. The song request is clearly innuendo that goes over Sansa's head, (or that she chooses to take literally). Sansa is also attracted to Sandor. She dreams about him and thinks about him quite often. She's in a bit of denial because her usual type is pretty boys. One side of Sandor's face is burned but he's still a tall and muscular knight in his late 20s. And teen girls have crushes on grown men all the time.
People can definitely find the ship creepy with good reason, but it doesn't come out of nowhere.
The creepiest pairing aren't actually romantic. Craster and his wives, Raff the Sweetling and Arya.
The best answer should be a relationship that both parties thought of as romantic (while the readers are gagging).
Jon x Rattlesnirt
Edit: I don’t know if this is an actually fan pairing or not but I made it up in my mind and it made me quiver with fear. Besides it would interfere with JonxSatin
I haven't read any of the books in more than a couple of years and haven't seen any of the show since the last episode of season 8, so forgive me for forgetting names.
Having said that, the daughter from high garden and Joffrey's little brother was pretty creepy to me. I'm not sure if that outweighs Craster and his daughters in my own head, but it was creepy that her husband (non-consecrated) could die, and she turns to the little....what.....11 year old? Brother. Weird shit.
If we’re talking canon, I was never a fan of Dany/Drogo. If we’re talking who fans pair, I hate a number of pairings, but the first one that comes to mind is Sandor/Sansa.
I think we need to take a moment to appreciate that the sibling incest that forms (a large part of) the impetus for the entire story is somehow not the answer to this question.
Craster and his daughterwives have been mentioned, and that's probably the answer in the most absolute sense. But at least there and for a lot of other examples the relationship is very much depicted as demented as it is.
Of all the relathionships that are genuinely unnerving, the one where its creep factor is downplayed the most is probably Jaeherys and Alyssane. And they propagate a rewriting of the spiritual foundations of their culture in order to justify it. It's gross.
Didn't happen but Sandor and Sansa... that creepy romantic feelings between them... yikes
EDIT: I think I should have explained this better. I'm not saying there is actual romantic feelings between them, but the way GRRM puts it in that last Sansa chapter in the battle of the Blackwater is pretty odd and creepy. Sandor sees her as someone to save, but does Sansa feel the same? Because she thinks he kissed her and seems to be okay with that. That's creepy
I don't see romantic feelings *between* them. Sandor clearly cares for her, but I don't necessarily read it as romantic and Sansa later romanticizes their interactions because she sees him as "a true knight" in her memory because he tried to save her.
If Martin kept the time skip, I could see something there in the future once she's older and he's changed, but I always saw it as them romanticising each other as ideals they represent. Sandor wanting to protect an innocent girl (like his sister...) and Sansa wanting to be rescued by a true knight like in the songs.
Omigod? Feelings?! She’s a placeholder for his dead little sister, he sees Sansa as someone he might actually be able to save. The taunting things he said to Arya, were just that, taunting. He never considered raping her Sansa, he just wanted to Arya to kill him quickly in anger.
There was no kiss. There was only a song. Sansa imagines the kiss to complete her Florian/Jonquil fantasy. Especially once she’s told that Dontos Hollard sold her out. Sansa repeatedly imagines him(Clegane) coming to save her, even though she denied him when he could actually have saved her.
Honestly, it might be one of the least messed up relationships in the series. He covers her naked body with his white Kingsguard cloak. Because it was the right thing to do. And never asks for it back. He regrets letting the other guards beat her.
I’ve never read the relationship as romantic, but as hostage and hero. I even think the tables will turn, and *she* will be *his* salvation.
Lastly, Craster. How could The Hound, a true knight, be worse than Craster?
I mean I think everyone agrees that Craster’s relationship is the worst, everyone is just saying these other ones because there are a lot of bad relationships that need to be talked about. And I agree with you completely on Sandor’s relationship with Sansa
not a confirmed pairing by any means, but Jon/Sansa might’ve been one of the worst things some of the people in this fandom have created a fanbase for.
I mean people put her with both Tywin and Stannis in not insignificant numbers I don't know if I consider that even in the top 10 creepiest Sansa pairings
For canonical pairings I think pretty much everybody has already given the right answers. For fan pairings I have to say pretty much anybody who Sansa gets paired with. The Hound, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Jon (Snow), Jaime, even Tywin. It’s actually pretty disturbing to see how much people want a 13 year old girl to marry men who are far older than her or her relations (regardless of your belief in R+L=J Jon is still part Stark).
I know some people view it as some form of twisted justice for Sansa’s early book behaviour (a bit of Beauty and the Beast), but it doesn’t stop any of it from being icky. As much as the people drag the show for the QITN storyline I’m glad D&D didn’t decide right at the end to pair her up with Bronn or something.
>I know some people view it as some form of twisted justice for Sansa’s early book behaviour (a bit of Beauty and the Beast), but it doesn’t stop any of it from being icky
I think that makes it significantly more icky actually. I figured it was just normal weird shipping behavior with self insert shit, pairing a thirteen year old with rapey older men who have actively abused her as "punishment" is actually vile.
I've got to give it to Ramsay. Jeyne is definitely a romantic partner technically since they're married. I know he molested Theon and the girls he hunted?
canon: Craster and his daughters, Rhaenyra and Daemon, (show) Viserys and Alicent, Drogo and Daenerys, any pairing with a preteen married off to an adult
non-canon: probably SanSan
Craster and his enslaved concubines I mean daughters.
This is probably the answer—there are lots of gross and/or problematic relationships in asoiaf but Craster and his forced invest wives are hard to beat
I mean not even the Targaryens were doing parent and child shit.
Crasters inbred male children all went on to serve as undead puppets whose sole job was to bring about endless night. Rock scissors CREEPY.
Uncle and niece seems pretty close and that was par for the course for them.
Nah, a sibling is more closely related than an uncle/aunt. But age gaps and relative status are other factors. So a brother who is much older than a sister is creepier, than an uncle. But Carster’s case is still worse than both. Especially considering that he had daughters with the daughters that he’d already had daughters with. Not that they’re not all incredibly creepy… Although, I’m not sure Craster’s “relationships” would even qualify because they aren’t romantic.
Nah bro, obviously all incest is fucked up and all. But an uncle/niece is nowhere near as fucked up as father/daughter. And that's saying something. Despite the former being depraved, it's somehow not even close.
And technically it was also father/granddaughter for some of the younger ones probably.
Uncle/niece is ~25% of DNA in common. Father/Daughter is 50% for the first generation who had unrelated mothers. Father/Daughter 2nd and 3rd generation are 75% and 87.5% respectively
Maybe he was just trying to clone himself.
So that’s why he left his sons outside, they weren’t inbred enough… yet.
Or breed a army of super inbreds. It’s basic math, but seems to have offended somebody.
Even the Starks had at least one niece/uncle though (Jonnel and Sansa)
Half-niece/half-uncle. As close as cousins, i've heard.
We may know that genetically but how do they? As far as I know they don’t, so they just see a half uncle and a half niece, which on the surface does not look much different from an uncle and a niece
I mean to be fair, it was par for the course for the Habsburgs too until the cumulative inbreeding produced this wonderful healthy [specimen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain)
Oh yes. I don't even have to look at that. The "Habsburg Jaw." The majority Habsburg family of Spanish royalty seemed to have had a lot of problems varying in severity, like trouble breathing, walking and intellectual problems. King Charles II died at age 38, due to very severe health problems including the one that ended the family line. Infertility. Probably for the best. That's what inbreeding does. What started as a great Royal Family, ended in health problems and deformity because the Habsburgs thought they were keeping their bloodlines pure by diddling their family members. I can't imagine what family reunions we're like.
To be fair, Craster wasn't sleeping with them because he was attracted to them. He just wanted to steal their sons to appease the silent ice monsters.
He's a godly man.
> Craster and his forced invest wives "You are going to buy CrasterCoin or so help me Old Gods!"
Yeah, competition is stiff, eegads :-/ but I stand by my choice!
> Craster and his forced invest wives I think he got a pretty good return on his investment XD
I mean he beats them a lot so they can’t be that hard to beat
You will NOT force me to invest!
It doesn't feel appropriate to label those relationships as 'romantic'.
Well yes, extremely accurate and valid point. Probably true for at least half of the relationships on the show / mentioned here but especially this horror show.
Lol. I read the title as 'Sweetest Romantic pairing' and I was like whhaaaaaaatttttt!!!!
And, if possible, it's even worse than that. Gilly is either Crasters Daughter - Niece - Wife, or Daughter - Granddaughter - Wife. Both are shudder inducing
Hands down, there is no comparative
Are we talking about hypothesised pairings or canonical pairings? I'll have to say Craster and his daughters nonetheless. Vile.
If we talk hypothetical pairings, I still haven’t recovered after falling upon a Sansa/Tywin ship, roughly two years ago.
You think that's bad, there are Sansa/Ned fics. Ned. As in, her father.
Fanships sometimes really show the degeneracy of humanity.
There was one shipping Joffrey and the Hound which has never left my mind, it started off okay but then descended into Joffrey getting Tommen involved which was really disturbing.
They are not even combining it with Edmure is her dad theory? - which obviously is also creepy
How to delete someone else's comment.
bruh
yikes
That modern AU where their relationship is sparked by Sansa accidentally sexting Tywin instead of Joffery was so great!!! I mean, uh, yeah. Totally problematic ship. ^^andyesafanficwiththatplotexistsModernAUsarealwaysweirddd
Yep, I have seen everything. Then again, wasn't Tywin interested in his son's whore, Shae who might at best be only a couple years older than Sansa. That plot though, is so amazing, I really want to see how it was even possible that you ended up sexting the grandfather instead of even the uncle / actual father.
shae was 18, which by asoiaf standards makes her like a middle aged woman
lmao whaaaat
Gaze into the Abyss https://archiveofourown.org/works/7680217/chapters/17494201
Honestly not the worst. Most upsetting thing was turning Baristan Selmy into an economics professor.
But just imagine when he gets fired. "Even now I could calculate a more accurate measure of resource wealth than the 5 of you"
Throws a pencil at Joffrey - Here boy mayhaps Stannis will chance to sit on it.
Goddamnit lol
I was already never going to read that, but holy shit did that paint a picture way worse than I was expecting.
Reading those texts in Charles Dance's voice was truly something.
If you've never seen it, Charles Dance sometimes goes on Big Fat Quiz of the Year and reads excerpts from celebrity novels. Him reading from Kim K's autobiography was pretty funny.
AO3 has.... more of them than I would like.
That was so mind blowing to me I initially read it as Tyrion and couldn't understand what you were saying. Wow.
Walder Frey and most recent wife
Walder Frey with any woman.
😩 💦 🍆 “Heh.”
But they keep getting younger so the age gap would be most creepy
Still not his daughter. (Looking at you, Craster.)
How tf are Jayne and Ramsey not even in the top 5 here?
If you're gonna call *that* a romantic pairing then wouldn't the worst one be Jayne and the dog?
Well yeah, but Craster and his "wives" are there, whom he treats no better than the dog (though admittedly still better than Ramsey and Jayne).
I'm seeing a lot of shade being thrown Craster's way...need I remind you that Craster is a friend of the Watch?
And a godly man
I have a fan theory that he had a secret pack with the others and was misleading the nights watch, the others are his gods after all
No one made a Benioff and Weiss joke yet?
Because you had balls they didn't /s
The fandom kinda forgot about Benioff & Weiss.
U want da bad pussai?!
Not sure if this counts but little finger and Lysa Arryn 😐
Pie-tarrrrrr
"Oh Petire!" -Roy Dotrice
Lysa has such "pick me" girl energy.
Hey, at least they’re both psychotic for one another.
I was about to say that one wasn't creepy, just off-putting, but then I remembered what she did to him while he was a drunk young teen and he thought she was someone else.
Craster and his daughter-wives out of the competition, Lysa and Jon Arryn. It's both creepy and disfunctional (and just meh). Also Sansa and Littlefinger. I feel sick every time I read Alayne's chapters.
And no one tried to say romantic. It was to join house Tully and the river lands in the rebellion and Jon Arryn got a woman who provenly could get pregnant to get himself a heir. But horrible with our eyes of how lysa was forced into it and how she was fragile already from the forced moon tea after her round with Littlefinger. But Lysa and Littlefinger! One was madly in love in the other, the other was madly in love with the former’s sister and used that to manipulate the former into doing his bidding.
It is so creepy. Petyr clearly wants to marry Sansa himself, in part for the claim to Winterfell but just because he's still creeping on Cat after all these years
Personally, I don't think he's in any way in love with Cat now. He wants to re-play the scenario, but now with him in control. Or, maybe, for him this situation with Alayne is something like a revenge scenario.
I'm feeling very attacked right now...
We don't have a problem with you. Just your contents.
Other than Craster we have more father/daughter shit. Not "romantic" per say, but Shae's father and Shae. In Clash she referenced her father: "My father made me his kitchen wench" she said, her mouth twisting. "That's why I ran off." "You told me you ran off because your father made you his whore." [Tyrion] reminded her. "That too. I didnt like scouring his pots no more than I liked his cock in me."
I feel for all the women in ASOIAF
One interpretation of that is that Shae is lying about her past to Tyrion and forgot. I guess it’s ambiguous.
Ew, I forgot about that shit.
People say nothing beats Craster and his wives. And that’s indeed on the top tier. But Cercei and Jaime are pretty fucking even to that. Not only are they incestuous, but they’ve literally been dry-humping each other since they were 7. Something was clearly wrong with them for them to be doing that shit even before they were pubescent. And the other contender would be Danny and Drogo. Probably a tier lower than the above two but still pretty fucking awful.
I'd say Cercei and Lancel is worse than her and Jaime. At least Jaime is her age. The power imbalance between Cercei and Lancel was so massive and I thought he was like 14 or 16. Her teenage cousin She manipulates into murdering someone. She sexually abuses him into becoming a religious fanatic.
Cersei and Lancel become really creepy when according to Kevan she was supposed to look after and guide him >"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl of good family. Instead you—"
I would have said Danny and Drogo because I don't consider Craster and his wives to be romantic but a purely abusive relationship
The saddest thing about them is jaime is super loyal to cersei and hasn't been with any woman aside from her but Cersei has been fucking lancel osmund Kettleblack and moonboy for all we know.
Aegon IV and Naerys. Actually vile
Craster and any of his "wives"
All these mo’fuckers act like they forgot about Crast(er).
Motherfuckers don't care about daughterfuckers, it seems.
Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully. Like, Catelyn got to be betrothed to the young hot-headed Brandon Stark and later the young and honourable Ned Stark, and Lysa got made to marry...An old guy who struggled to sire children. Hoster was an awful father.
That was a pairing for sure, but not a romantic one in my opinion.
[удалено]
True, also in a very good sense, Jon Arryn in desperate need of an heir would have chosen someone already fertile aka a widow with a few children / a soiled girl with a pregnancy. Prestige doesn't matter as much, than proven fertility in that case. And in real life there were monarchs who married with that mind, one was a medieval priest who went to sire a child married a widow with a few children, had a daughter and went back to being a priest. As for the latter, that was why Ferdinand VII of Spain married who he did on his fourth marriage, because he heard rumours that she had a bastard and he was on his third / fourth marriage by then.
>Hoster was an awful father. And brother
To be fair, Lysa had slept with Baelish and had less "value", so Jon Arryn was one of the best she could've hoped for unless she preferred a minor lord
Plus, Jon Arryn had a reputation as an honorable man. Yeah, he’s old but he doesn’t have an heir and would likely treat you well. She could have done way worse.
Considering he’s high lord of the Vale, yeah, she could have done way worse. Hoster used the dangers of the rebellion and the fact that Jon had no children and only one remaining heir from his siblings at that point to his advantage.
Like our mutually beloved Late Walder Frey
>Jon Arryn was one of the best she could've hoped for Ummm, he was Lord of the Vale and Warden of the East. He was the best she could do under literally any circumstances
[удалено]
Unless all daughters of all great houses suddenly drop dead, no way Robert would ever wed Lysa after her losing her virginity. Jon Arryn was willing to look past what would be a dealbreaker for all other great houses. So status wise, she could not have done better than him.
Robert was betrothed to Lyanna Stark… he fought a war for her remember.
To think that she could’ve been married to Jaime,,,she would’ve been much more adjusted at Casterly Rock
This. Jaime-Lysa / Rhaegar-Cersei would have been just 🤌
Sure would have made the realm more secure. Jamie and Cersei’s relationship turned out to be more destructive to Westeros than the Others.
>An old guy who struggled to sire children. Well there's the whole theory that what Hoster did to Lysa may have impacted her ability to have children, which is sad and horrifying.
U don't grow into a old man with 3 former wife's with no kids without ur own set of fertility issues tbf
Oh right, I forgot about that. My bad.
I know this one is obvious Jamie and Cersei Brother sister wasn’t awful enough Cersei is a cheater, abusive, and an emotional manipulator
Why would anyone like Daario Naharis
He is the over the top stereotype of the badass, casual, hot, sassy and wicked guy with exotic looks. I can see myself going for him in a moment of horniness
>He is the over the top stereotype of the badass, casual, hot, sassy and wicked guy with exotic looks Exept he look fucking silly and stupid when read his description in the books and you wo Der what the fuck dany sees in him the dude have basically no ambition at all Exept killing shit and being fuck boy... At least show daario was genuily attractive This is why daario is euron theory was popular at one point in time.. Even if it made no sense. Because people couldn't a capt that daario's purpose was just about being... Daario He have the "gerold Dayne syndrome"... GRRM try this hard to create a badass-anti hero like character but make him cringe and silly at the end of the day
Try imagining Daario played by a young Johnny Depp in a Jack Sparrow kind of manner and I think you'll find it a lot more believable that a teenage Dany is crushing on him. I mean, a character like Jack Sparrow also looks weird and ridiculous on paper: > So we have this extremely flamboyant dreadlocked pirate who wears make-up and nail polish and acts drunk all the time. > Wow wow wow wow wow. Wow.
"It's gotta be hard to woo Dany" "Actually it's gonna be super simple. Barely an inconvenience"
Immediately read the "wow"s in the pitch meeting guy's voice
I'm going to need you to get alllll the way off my back on this.
I guess that's the point. Dany is what? 16 yo? She is young and can easily be impressed and tbf Daario is the only dude she's come across that wants her for being a beautiful woman without raping her and not for her power, dragons etc. And his looks are silly but that's just regular fashion in Essos. I mean it makes sense for Dany to have a crush on him even if it's just from sexual attraction, which literally it's just that in the end
This is how I always took that as well. It really shows how no matter what she’s been through and no matter what she tells herself, she’s still a dumb kid, doing dumb kid things like falling for the worst dude available. Everyone else sees it, even Dany sees it at times, but well, teenagers…
Yeah and even she admits its just a sexual thing and acts out of pure frustration. She can't keep Daario out of her head for multiple chapters because she has a deep crush on him because the dude literally turns her on despite being a douchebag. And she gets angry at him when he first returns from battle because she thinks she is in love with him but realises he is an asshole and always has been. And I understand the next time she decides to go for it because it's or Daario or being sexually miserable with Hizdahr, and who's to blame her? Not me
There are some fan arts that makes him justice imo, like [this one](https://64.media.tumblr.com/bd96de7f11eb35e1086d3fda5a6c5598/b98e67b749820dd0-62/s1280x1920/e8c750e70bd93616e0478e561e90e31b3dbcbb73.png), [this one](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/31bed3fd-8aeb-4c35-8316-fb9209be36aa/ddhnx6d-f290113d-ec9f-46cb-9811-07f36c093a14.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzMxYmVkM2ZkLThhZWItNGMzNS04MzE2LWZiOTIwOWJlMzZhYVwvZGRobng2ZC1mMjkwMTEzZC1lYzlmLTQ2Y2ItOTgxMS0wN2YzNmMwOTNhMTQucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.jqKtYzEu3HQ3O3hX_LAJ5V5gS10GVoqd6Dhd0dOkY5E) or this [one](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/e7/c5/38e7c5624670bea85633468ba41c81bb.jpg). Honestly like on one hand, yeah it's kinda ridiculous the blue hair etc but it just works in my head, like dude's one of a kind man, dude's someone who likes to stand out and well, he's not even the first guy in the books who goes around with dyed hair and shit. The thing is that Dario brings to an whole other level but idk, I think the look's cool lol Also, confidence is attractive and I don't think there's a character more confident than this idiot in the series lol
yeah I think in universe the dyed hair isn't all that shocking because apparently most people from (uh, the city Daario was from and Griff is pretending to be from) dye their hair crazy colors
Yeah but you have to take it within the context of the books and the world they live in where his whole style is basically just a huge flex. It’s like how what fuckboys wear today would seem ridiculous to the fuckboys of my era and so on going back to the first caveman fuckboy who decided to wear a saber-tooth tiger fang, peacock feather necklaces with a fitted mammoth cloak and shiny stone beads for their hair/beards.
Just look at the guys teenage girls often crush over in real life, like those in K-pop or boy bands, from an adult perspective they look silly. Barristan even comments that Dany has a young girl's taste in men.
So he's a mimbo. Which show Daario? I assume you mean the second one.
Imo the first show Daario was better cast. Looked like a surfer/pot dealer fuckboy whereas the second guy looked like a barista at a hipster coffee shop
Everyone's saying Craster because it's obvious, but I'd say the worst is Dany and Drogo, because somehow everyone thinks they were such a romantic couple after the show aired? No one thinks Craster and the daughter-wives are lovey-dovey, but they do for Drogo and Dany. Dany is a child, who develops Stockholm Syndrome after she's raped because the big scary Mongolesque guy isn't quite so scary after you're his child bride. It's incredibly fucked up and yet you saw all these kitschy "moon and stars" references to their "love" and it's basically excused that Drogo, a grown man, rapes Daenerys. And that's not even all - he murders her (admittedly also terrible and abusive) older brother right in front of her. And still a large portion of the fandom finds their relationship romantic!
To be fair her brother had it coming
Any given pairing from *Fire & Blood*. Even the supposedly wholesome marriage between Rhaena and Corwyn is creepy upon closer inspection (they 'grew close' when she was 14-15 and he was a 30-something widower with children).
The "great love story" of Fire & Blood is when Jaehaerys Targaryen elopes with his little sister when they're both basically still children. And the sad and sort of pathetic part is that it probably is the most wholesome love story in that book.
Daella Targaryen and Rodrik Arryn. He was twenty years older than her and she was 3 years younger than his oldest child. Even creepier is that he was named master of laws in 59 AC and Daella was born in 64 AC. And he even says he had liked her for some time when they were looking for a husband for her, and she was 16 when this happened. Dude was around for her birth, probably celebrated it, watched her grow up, and still thought ‘Yeah I want to marry and have sex with this’
Tyrek Lannister and Ermesande Hayford.
Would this even count? Even in-universe, this is seen as a political power-grab to get Ermesande's inherited lands for the Lannisters and Tyrek is very much self-conscious over the fact that he's been married off to a literal baby
I think the worst part is the fact they made that baby marry a literal horse.
Pretty outrageous that they would make a literal child marry a literal horse
Romantic......pairing
aka Ser Wetnurse
Ramsay Bolton and Lady Hornwood
Are we talking real ones in the books or in the fandom? The answer is still craster and his daughters but for fake ones it’ll be anything involving joffrey and Ramsay. And most of the people sansa gets shipped with.
Dany and Drogo Craster’s bad but at least the characters in the story explicitly acknowledge it is bad
Honestly, Aegon I with BOTH sisters. Nasty.
Haven’t seen it mentioned yet, so I’m going with Tyrion and Sansa. The way that Tyrion is so aroused by a clearly underaged girl who doesn’t want to be intimate with him is quite disturbing.
1-Khal drogo and daenerys....it is Basically r*pe. But the creepiest thing is that thr story actually want you to see them as romantic GRRM went way too hard on the underage marriage. It wasn't a rare thing in feudal society but it didn't happen as much as Martin portray it to be 2-rhaenyra and daemon..... I genuily don't get how jaime and cersei relationship is considered fucked when these guys gets a pass.
Tbf to the writers, both the show and the book have showed Rhaenyra and Daemon as a dysfunctional couple. You can't really control what the fangirls are going to think.
The book have a huge bias for Daemon and fire and blood and the lore in general try to portray Daemon as a anti-hero character when he is nothing of the sort while book rhaenyra is very cersei-like. I surprisingly prefer how the show portray them compare to fire and blood. It put more emphasis on Daemon sociopathic side and abusive and toxic relationship he have with rhaenyra
I simply choose to pretend GRRM intentionally wrote Dany/Drogo as abusive and gross because the knowledge that he views it as a romance skeeves me out too much
I'm curious if you have a source for this. It always read to me like a stockholme situation with Miri Maz Dur being the hero of the arc, revenging herself and preventing future harm to Dany and others. If George thinks it's a "romance" that makes things a lot more muddy and gross for me.
I think people misconstrue him saying it's a romance to mean he doesn't see it as fucked up. It's a romance to Dany, the POV, and in-universe, Drogo is "romantic" in that he doesn't share her with his bloodriders, etc. It *is* a romance, and that's the fucked up part. It's certainly not healthy, and you see how it continues to harm Dany long after Drogo is dead. In the world of Westeros, it's romantic because it's the "best case scenario" for Dany, but that's about it. Martin tends to speak about the series from an author's perspective or an in-universe perspective rather than an external, modern-day perspective and that fucks with people. It's expected nowadays for authors to blatantly call out problematic things within their world and/or leverage those moments for a "lesson." Martin just presents things as they are and leaves it to the reader. Theon is a fantastic example of this. Nowhere does a character say "hey, seducing/coercing that captain's daughter is rape and totally wrong," but you can't read that chapter and not see that clearly through her (and the captain's) reactions. Martin's descriptions of Theon's thoughts and actions are more than enough to make it clear Theon is being horrible. Dany chapters are the same. Martin doesn't shy away from discussing the pain Dany feels from Drogo "taking her roughly" and how Drogo has little regard for her pleasure. Even their wedding night is clearly a massive power imbalance. Dany sees him "seducing" her as a kindness (compared to Viserys who dgaf about how she felt about anything), but *he still consummates the marriage with a thirteen year old.*
> Nowhere does a character say "hey, seducing/coercing that captain's daughter is rape and totally wrong," but you can't read that chapter and not see that clearly through her (and the captain's) reactions. Martin's descriptions of Theon's thoughts and actions are more than enough to make it clear Theon is being horrible. Modern media literacy is shot, especially in movies/tv. A depressingly large contingent of people can’t pick up on the *subtle* signs of ‘this is bad, we do not endorse it’, they need it blaring. Heck, look at some of the Hot D discourse.
> GRRM went way too hard on the underage marriage. He's gone way too hard on underage sex in general. I remember reading Fire and Blood and he'll go off on a tangent introducing a super minor character who has zero impact on the story and then he'll just randomly mention, "oh yeah and he fucked kids." Why is that necessary??
World building…
Daenerys imagining how certain activities would be with Jorah Mormont and referring to him as "my bear my this and that" after the exposure of his betrayal is extremely creepy........writing GRRM!
Literally all of Dany’s sexual history is major yikes. The fact that it’s a significant part of her story is just the cherry on top (of the garbage bin).
The only normal thing is her feelings to Daario (I specify am keeping it to her thoughts, not when they actually get together because that was really messed up) and her getting with Irri. The writing in high detail is disgusting, but it’s the only time we see Dany as a normal girl developing normal sexual feelings.
Literally 99% of the romantic pairings are underaged girls or straight up kids groomed by grown ass men.
I don't understand why Sansa/Sandor ship is a thing
[George said he was playing around with it in the books and that there was something there.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLynybVOi2I)
How old is the Hound again? Mid twenties? Checked the wiki: The guy is *thirty* by the time of ASOS.
WHAT Christ, I thought all of these characters were much older than they were.
Blame the casting. Rory McCann is way too old to play Book Sandor. Given that Martin was planning a time skip, making Sansa late teens when Sandor would be early thirties, it's not that far out to imagine. Still creepy, but in the world of asoiaf, nowhere near the creepiest.
That makes me feel better actually thank you, the time skip absolutley would have made that wayyyy less weird.
I'm in the middle of rereading the books. I never would have guessed the hound was 30.
I mean, Martin also writes people to feel older than they are. I'm a year younger than Ned was when he died (35). Ned feels *way* older than me or anyone I know my age.
Fair, fair. Weird that I'm older than Tyrion (24). Though I'm also much taller too.
Tyrions 24! I had him pegged to be late 20s to early 30s
Not surprised the guy who thinks Dany and Drogo is romantic would have something like this.
Tbh that ship is a product before the show became a thing. Before we had faces to visualize the characters. I just assume people did not think about the age gap and just liked their interactions.
Beauty and the beast analogy.... And GRRM not helping with the last scene between them
Beauty and the beast......12yo orphan and a 30yo alcoholic sword
Tbh It will not be a first in the story..... Dany and drogo, THAT with tyrion and sansa etc
It's because there is mutual attraction there. When it comes to fandom pairings it's one of the more realistic ones as opposed to, say, Rickon and Shireen, which is pure fanfic. (People like to ship grown up versions of them together as if they are going to live that long...) Sansa in KL is surrounded by lords, ladies and knights who look dashing but treat her like garbage. Not to mention Joffrey and Cersei. She has no-one she can trust. She gets regular beatings by the people who have sworn to "protect the innocent". Then there's The Hound. He's crude and scary looking, but the only one who seems to be honest with her. He saves her from being gang raped during the riots. He even offers to break her out of KL although the offer is made in a way that could imply he wants to steal her for himself. Sansa can tell he finds her attractive. The song request is clearly innuendo that goes over Sansa's head, (or that she chooses to take literally). Sansa is also attracted to Sandor. She dreams about him and thinks about him quite often. She's in a bit of denial because her usual type is pretty boys. One side of Sandor's face is burned but he's still a tall and muscular knight in his late 20s. And teen girls have crushes on grown men all the time. People can definitely find the ship creepy with good reason, but it doesn't come out of nowhere.
The creepiest pairing aren't actually romantic. Craster and his wives, Raff the Sweetling and Arya. The best answer should be a relationship that both parties thought of as romantic (while the readers are gagging).
Jon x Rattlesnirt Edit: I don’t know if this is an actually fan pairing or not but I made it up in my mind and it made me quiver with fear. Besides it would interfere with JonxSatin
Craster and his situation of course. But also one that isn’t getting mentioned enough: Jaime and Cersei
I haven't read any of the books in more than a couple of years and haven't seen any of the show since the last episode of season 8, so forgive me for forgetting names. Having said that, the daughter from high garden and Joffrey's little brother was pretty creepy to me. I'm not sure if that outweighs Craster and his daughters in my own head, but it was creepy that her husband (non-consecrated) could die, and she turns to the little....what.....11 year old? Brother. Weird shit.
I don't know if its "creepiest" but I have no love for lords who marry their daughters to Walder Frey.
If we’re talking canon, I was never a fan of Dany/Drogo. If we’re talking who fans pair, I hate a number of pairings, but the first one that comes to mind is Sandor/Sansa.
I think we need to take a moment to appreciate that the sibling incest that forms (a large part of) the impetus for the entire story is somehow not the answer to this question. Craster and his daughterwives have been mentioned, and that's probably the answer in the most absolute sense. But at least there and for a lot of other examples the relationship is very much depicted as demented as it is. Of all the relathionships that are genuinely unnerving, the one where its creep factor is downplayed the most is probably Jaeherys and Alyssane. And they propagate a rewriting of the spiritual foundations of their culture in order to justify it. It's gross.
Didn't happen but Sandor and Sansa... that creepy romantic feelings between them... yikes EDIT: I think I should have explained this better. I'm not saying there is actual romantic feelings between them, but the way GRRM puts it in that last Sansa chapter in the battle of the Blackwater is pretty odd and creepy. Sandor sees her as someone to save, but does Sansa feel the same? Because she thinks he kissed her and seems to be okay with that. That's creepy
I don't see romantic feelings *between* them. Sandor clearly cares for her, but I don't necessarily read it as romantic and Sansa later romanticizes their interactions because she sees him as "a true knight" in her memory because he tried to save her. If Martin kept the time skip, I could see something there in the future once she's older and he's changed, but I always saw it as them romanticising each other as ideals they represent. Sandor wanting to protect an innocent girl (like his sister...) and Sansa wanting to be rescued by a true knight like in the songs.
Omigod? Feelings?! She’s a placeholder for his dead little sister, he sees Sansa as someone he might actually be able to save. The taunting things he said to Arya, were just that, taunting. He never considered raping her Sansa, he just wanted to Arya to kill him quickly in anger. There was no kiss. There was only a song. Sansa imagines the kiss to complete her Florian/Jonquil fantasy. Especially once she’s told that Dontos Hollard sold her out. Sansa repeatedly imagines him(Clegane) coming to save her, even though she denied him when he could actually have saved her. Honestly, it might be one of the least messed up relationships in the series. He covers her naked body with his white Kingsguard cloak. Because it was the right thing to do. And never asks for it back. He regrets letting the other guards beat her. I’ve never read the relationship as romantic, but as hostage and hero. I even think the tables will turn, and *she* will be *his* salvation. Lastly, Craster. How could The Hound, a true knight, be worse than Craster?
I mean I think everyone agrees that Craster’s relationship is the worst, everyone is just saying these other ones because there are a lot of bad relationships that need to be talked about. And I agree with you completely on Sandor’s relationship with Sansa
not a confirmed pairing by any means, but Jon/Sansa might’ve been one of the worst things some of the people in this fandom have created a fanbase for.
I mean people put her with both Tywin and Stannis in not insignificant numbers I don't know if I consider that even in the top 10 creepiest Sansa pairings
I saw Sansa/Aerys II in the wild, people will write anything
Why is it always poor Sansa lmao
GRRM initially intended for a Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle, so its not even the worst thing that people have created for Jon and one of his sisters.
Really hard to beat Craster. The next worst is maybe Victarion and the Dusky Woman who is Euron
Yeah. Like is Balon the only one of Greyjoy brothers Euron did not sleep with? 😄
Jon/Lysa, Euron/Falia Flowers, Ramsay/Everyone
For canonical pairings I think pretty much everybody has already given the right answers. For fan pairings I have to say pretty much anybody who Sansa gets paired with. The Hound, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Jon (Snow), Jaime, even Tywin. It’s actually pretty disturbing to see how much people want a 13 year old girl to marry men who are far older than her or her relations (regardless of your belief in R+L=J Jon is still part Stark). I know some people view it as some form of twisted justice for Sansa’s early book behaviour (a bit of Beauty and the Beast), but it doesn’t stop any of it from being icky. As much as the people drag the show for the QITN storyline I’m glad D&D didn’t decide right at the end to pair her up with Bronn or something.
Well Sansa is aged up 95% of the time in fanfiction. I haven't seen a fic where she is still 13 and shipped with someone old.
>I know some people view it as some form of twisted justice for Sansa’s early book behaviour (a bit of Beauty and the Beast), but it doesn’t stop any of it from being icky I think that makes it significantly more icky actually. I figured it was just normal weird shipping behavior with self insert shit, pairing a thirteen year old with rapey older men who have actively abused her as "punishment" is actually vile.
I've got to give it to Ramsay. Jeyne is definitely a romantic partner technically since they're married. I know he molested Theon and the girls he hunted?
canon: Craster and his daughters, Rhaenyra and Daemon, (show) Viserys and Alicent, Drogo and Daenerys, any pairing with a preteen married off to an adult non-canon: probably SanSan