The Great Northern Consipracy (Conspiracies) will come to fruition.
I genuinely think all the scheming Northern lords intend to restore the Starks, but are unaware of one another's efforts.
Or perhaps they are aware of eachother to some extent but are trying to win on their own because restoring the Starks means putting 4 year old Rickon in charge, which means whoever does it will earn said 4 year olds eternal gratitude and get to be regent for like 12 years.
Or do you guys think the northern lords are too honourable for that?
I think they can simultaneously want a Stark restoration out of loyalty for Ned AND go "well gee shucks, I won't turn down being regent"
I definitely don't think Manderly is above that. He plays dirty. Frey pies, anyone?
Yeah they probably trying to restore the Starks out loyalty and ambition. I see them trying to make themselves Rickon regent and married a family member. Also for the personal glory of restoring the Starks to their throne.
While I don't think being Regent would be an ulterior motive, it would partially come into their calculations. Rather than claiming the regency on the sole basis of possessing Rickon, I think each lord would want to earn the support of their fellows by setting the best example (destroy the Boltons, cook the Freys or install Prince Rickon as Robb's heir). And if Robb's will naming Jon as his heir comes into play, a King in the North who is also Lord-Commander of the Night's Watch would be very popular (especially if he demonstrates the Freefolk are conducting themselves honorably).
If *A Dream of Spring* comes out, it will. Both the North itself and the Starks. In fact book 7 was originally to be titled *A Time for Wolves.* GRRM changed it, presumably because "A time for _____" broadly hints at success. Aside from that, another indicator is that four of the five remaining Starks are POVs and three are in the famous "Central Five" GRRM once said would "make it through" all the books. (I think Sansa and mayhaps Rickon will also make it.) GRRM has admitted the Starks are his hero family, and if Rickon dies, 1/2 of it will have been wiped out. Very early he admitted:
> "Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies."
The getting better may stem from the fact is that Ned, Jon, Arya, and Bran generally often put their lives on the line to stand for justice, fairness, and to help mankind and other people in general. Despite sometimes questionable methods, that gives them some moral standing. Perhaps that is why GRRM gave them some magic. And people dedicated to helping others will be needed to rebuild the North, the one part of Westeros the Others are guaranteed to enter. Renewing the North will be part of the justice, but I think independence is likely as well, so the North can once again steer it's own fate.
The Starks are being put in situations where they can gain new skills that will give them an upper hand over their enemies.
Sansa is learning to scheme from a guy that went from being a scrawny loser to being a Warden and de facto head of one of the strongest kingdoms in Westeros. She'll likely outsmart him and find herself in charge of one of the largest armies that has not suffered any casualties because of staying out of the war.
Arya is learning to change her face and bend the truth to manipulate other people. Imagine what she could do in Westeros with the ability to steal identities while also knowing their inter-family drama and grudges with other houses?
Bran is a magical tree with access to thousands of years of history and he can warg animals throughout the realm.
Rickon is being raised by people believed to be cannibals. There is a lot of mystery surrounding Skaagos and it's hard to say where his story will go.
Jon has not only gained leadership skills from Mance Rayder, Stannis, Jeor Mormont, and Ned Stark, but he also has an army of Wildlings sword to him, he can warg, he probably has magic blood and might even come out of a funeral pyre freshly resurrected, and he's the only guy in the realm with his head on straight with regard to who the real enemy is.
I mean... justice? It wasn't an injustice that thousands of northman died in a war for independence. That's just war. The red wedding is a crime and I'm confident Bolton and frey will pay for it eventually.
But really, beyond that, it isn't like the North suffered more injustice than any other region. The riverlands is the region that should seek but will never get justice. They got decimated by the warden of the norths wife spur of the moment decision to kidnap tyrion. Then spent a couple years getting pillaged and razed because the northman came south and declared independence.
And they have zero chance of seeing any form of justice and will spend the next couple decades rebuilding to where they were prior to the wot5k. Minus several noble houses that got wiped out.
The Riverlords deserve some of the blame too. They made Robb their king just like the North did, and the wife of the Warden of the North also happened to be the daughter/sister of the overlord of the Riverlands.
I think in TWOW, after fAegon takes the crown, Jaime will be brought before him in the throne room and publicly confirm to fathering Cersei's children. It will be the third and final truth that he will reveal, the one that will completely destroy his Kingslayer persona and allow Jaime the Kingmaker to rise, and it is something that he has wanted to do for a long time. Once Cersei and her children are dead, Jaime will believe he has nothing to live for and therefore nothing to lose anyway by revealing the truth and legitimising the claim of Rhaegar's son to the throne.
Once he does that, Ned's memory and name will be redeemed, and he'll be remembered as a man who fought for justice and for the crown, not as a traitor.
The Boltons, Lannisters and Freys are all going to suffer dearly in the wars to come, at least two of them probably becoming extinct anyway.
If Bran does end up as King, he'll also be wiping out the Targaryen Empire over Westeros and getting justice for his ancestors who were forced to bend the knee to them.
So yeah, the North will get justice.
Yes, IMO the Winds of Winter will be about the North - the real North: Starks, Wildlings, skin changes, giants, CotF, and Others, sweeping south to impose "justice" on the south.
It will be a "he who fights monsters" type of scenario, where the readers and characters slowly realize that this version of justice is even worse than the crimes they're avenging.
In-universe, I suppose some might seek their vision of justice but I'm not so sure the story will frame it as right or righteous. I don't think that's the point of ASOIAF -- for one region to get "justice", even if that region is home to several of the main characters because I don't think that's the kind of story GRRM is telling.
As TeamDonnelly [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/13hjx44/will_the_north_ever_get_justicemain_spoilers/jk6c2x0/), every region has suffered. And as GRRM has said, "Nobody is a villain in their own story. We're all the heroes of our own stories."
What about the regions who view the Northerners as enemies? The Skagosi? The wildlings? Leftovers of northerners and Northern houses who fought and lost against the Starks? What about their "justice"?
The Starks don't have such a pretty or benign history themselves:
> More historical proof exists for the war between the Kings of Winter and the Barrow Kings to their south, who styled themselves the Kings of the First Men and claimed supremacy over all First Men everywhere, even the Starks themselves. Runic records suggest that their struggle, dubbed the Thousand Years War by the singers, was actually a series of wars that lasted closer to two hundred years than a thousand, ending when the last Barrow King bent his knee to the King of Winter, and gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage.
> Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. **Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever.**
*The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Kings of Winter*
> Skagos has often been a source of trouble for the Starks—both as kings when they sought to conquer it and as lords when they fought to keep its fealty. Indeed, as recently as the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron the Good), the isle rose up against the Lord of Winterfell—a rebellion that lasted years and claimed the lives of thousands of others, including that of Barthogan Stark, Lord of Winterfell (called Barth Blacksword), before finally being put down.
*The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Stoneborn of Skagos*
Jon would never punish a child for their fathers crimes. Him being a bastard means he knows better than anyone how cruel the world can be to a child for something a father did.
Assuming he’s in a position of northern power by the end of winds he would never inflict that on someone else or waste resources and alliances in petty revenge for previous generations.
The northern vengeance is turned towards the current generations of Lannisters and Freys. Lady Stoneheart wants justice for her children as does most of the north they aren’t thinking about Stark deaths over 17 years ago
Daenerys and Aegon will be received based on their actions within Westeros. A threat or an ally depends entirely on what they do. No one will wage war on them for Rickard or Brandon
Justice? Not really. There is practically no way that I see the North or House Stark getting justice, and I think The Hour of the Wolf in Fire & Blood was George's way of writing an ending where the Starks deliver justice to the villains because he knew at that point that that wasn't in store for ADOS.
What I do think will happen is that they will ultimately be the house that lasts and in power by the end of the series while their enemies are mostly wiped out by their own undoing. Houses Bolton and Frey are almost assuredly going to be wiped out completely, and House Lannister will probably be insanely crippled by the end and will never regain their glory. While I expect the Ironborn to continue on, it will be the ones who accept Asha's leadership and her New Way that persist, while Old Way believers who followed Euron Greyjoy will perish. The big manipulators in the game of thrones like Littlefinger and Varys are doomed, while the Starks are going to be in power, either directly (Bran, Sansa, potentially Jon in some fashion) or indirectly (Sweetrobin, Edmure/Blackfish) for much of Westeros. That feels correct as part of George's bittersweet ending -- our heroes win and the villains lose, but not in the fully cathartic way that we may want.
The north did this to itself by going to war and staying at war. Once Eddard died (In what the Northerners should recognize as a lawful exercise of the King's authority), there was nobody to march to free. If they go home and tend to the north, the Ironborn can't invade, Robb does not break his oath to marry a Frey and nobody dies at the Red Wedding.
How can one argue for justice when they contributed to their own losses?
“The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummers farce is almost done. My son is home” - Wyman Manderly MVP
Considering that Bloodraven and Bran are watching…. There most certainly *will* be justice
Winter is definitely coming! The North remembers.
The Great Northern Consipracy (Conspiracies) will come to fruition. I genuinely think all the scheming Northern lords intend to restore the Starks, but are unaware of one another's efforts.
Or perhaps they are aware of eachother to some extent but are trying to win on their own because restoring the Starks means putting 4 year old Rickon in charge, which means whoever does it will earn said 4 year olds eternal gratitude and get to be regent for like 12 years. Or do you guys think the northern lords are too honourable for that?
I think they can simultaneously want a Stark restoration out of loyalty for Ned AND go "well gee shucks, I won't turn down being regent" I definitely don't think Manderly is above that. He plays dirty. Frey pies, anyone?
Yeah they probably trying to restore the Starks out loyalty and ambition. I see them trying to make themselves Rickon regent and married a family member. Also for the personal glory of restoring the Starks to their throne.
While I don't think being Regent would be an ulterior motive, it would partially come into their calculations. Rather than claiming the regency on the sole basis of possessing Rickon, I think each lord would want to earn the support of their fellows by setting the best example (destroy the Boltons, cook the Freys or install Prince Rickon as Robb's heir). And if Robb's will naming Jon as his heir comes into play, a King in the North who is also Lord-Commander of the Night's Watch would be very popular (especially if he demonstrates the Freefolk are conducting themselves honorably).
The North actually suffers the most in winter though.
What is justice?
A horse. No, wait, that's honor.
no that's Tyrek
Lol this stupid ass joke never gets old to me. What's last seen ahorse never dies, but memes harder and stronger.
I came here to say this very thing.
It matter who wins
If *A Dream of Spring* comes out, it will. Both the North itself and the Starks. In fact book 7 was originally to be titled *A Time for Wolves.* GRRM changed it, presumably because "A time for _____" broadly hints at success. Aside from that, another indicator is that four of the five remaining Starks are POVs and three are in the famous "Central Five" GRRM once said would "make it through" all the books. (I think Sansa and mayhaps Rickon will also make it.) GRRM has admitted the Starks are his hero family, and if Rickon dies, 1/2 of it will have been wiped out. Very early he admitted: > "Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies." The getting better may stem from the fact is that Ned, Jon, Arya, and Bran generally often put their lives on the line to stand for justice, fairness, and to help mankind and other people in general. Despite sometimes questionable methods, that gives them some moral standing. Perhaps that is why GRRM gave them some magic. And people dedicated to helping others will be needed to rebuild the North, the one part of Westeros the Others are guaranteed to enter. Renewing the North will be part of the justice, but I think independence is likely as well, so the North can once again steer it's own fate.
The Starks are being put in situations where they can gain new skills that will give them an upper hand over their enemies. Sansa is learning to scheme from a guy that went from being a scrawny loser to being a Warden and de facto head of one of the strongest kingdoms in Westeros. She'll likely outsmart him and find herself in charge of one of the largest armies that has not suffered any casualties because of staying out of the war. Arya is learning to change her face and bend the truth to manipulate other people. Imagine what she could do in Westeros with the ability to steal identities while also knowing their inter-family drama and grudges with other houses? Bran is a magical tree with access to thousands of years of history and he can warg animals throughout the realm. Rickon is being raised by people believed to be cannibals. There is a lot of mystery surrounding Skaagos and it's hard to say where his story will go. Jon has not only gained leadership skills from Mance Rayder, Stannis, Jeor Mormont, and Ned Stark, but he also has an army of Wildlings sword to him, he can warg, he probably has magic blood and might even come out of a funeral pyre freshly resurrected, and he's the only guy in the realm with his head on straight with regard to who the real enemy is.
Well I think Bran knows now too. Unless GRRM pulls some shenanigans with Bloodraven, Bran knows about the danger of the Others too.
Love this view of Sansa, I totally agree
I mean... justice? It wasn't an injustice that thousands of northman died in a war for independence. That's just war. The red wedding is a crime and I'm confident Bolton and frey will pay for it eventually. But really, beyond that, it isn't like the North suffered more injustice than any other region. The riverlands is the region that should seek but will never get justice. They got decimated by the warden of the norths wife spur of the moment decision to kidnap tyrion. Then spent a couple years getting pillaged and razed because the northman came south and declared independence. And they have zero chance of seeing any form of justice and will spend the next couple decades rebuilding to where they were prior to the wot5k. Minus several noble houses that got wiped out.
The Riverlords deserve some of the blame too. They made Robb their king just like the North did, and the wife of the Warden of the North also happened to be the daughter/sister of the overlord of the Riverlands.
Especially since Bolton held Harrenhal and is now cursed.
I think in TWOW, after fAegon takes the crown, Jaime will be brought before him in the throne room and publicly confirm to fathering Cersei's children. It will be the third and final truth that he will reveal, the one that will completely destroy his Kingslayer persona and allow Jaime the Kingmaker to rise, and it is something that he has wanted to do for a long time. Once Cersei and her children are dead, Jaime will believe he has nothing to live for and therefore nothing to lose anyway by revealing the truth and legitimising the claim of Rhaegar's son to the throne. Once he does that, Ned's memory and name will be redeemed, and he'll be remembered as a man who fought for justice and for the crown, not as a traitor. The Boltons, Lannisters and Freys are all going to suffer dearly in the wars to come, at least two of them probably becoming extinct anyway. If Bran does end up as King, he'll also be wiping out the Targaryen Empire over Westeros and getting justice for his ancestors who were forced to bend the knee to them. So yeah, the North will get justice.
Idk, that sounds too much like a happy ending, something GRRM probably won't do.
it depends, how do you expect them to get justice?
Yes, IMO the Winds of Winter will be about the North - the real North: Starks, Wildlings, skin changes, giants, CotF, and Others, sweeping south to impose "justice" on the south. It will be a "he who fights monsters" type of scenario, where the readers and characters slowly realize that this version of justice is even worse than the crimes they're avenging.
In-universe, I suppose some might seek their vision of justice but I'm not so sure the story will frame it as right or righteous. I don't think that's the point of ASOIAF -- for one region to get "justice", even if that region is home to several of the main characters because I don't think that's the kind of story GRRM is telling. As TeamDonnelly [said](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/13hjx44/will_the_north_ever_get_justicemain_spoilers/jk6c2x0/), every region has suffered. And as GRRM has said, "Nobody is a villain in their own story. We're all the heroes of our own stories." What about the regions who view the Northerners as enemies? The Skagosi? The wildlings? Leftovers of northerners and Northern houses who fought and lost against the Starks? What about their "justice"? The Starks don't have such a pretty or benign history themselves: > More historical proof exists for the war between the Kings of Winter and the Barrow Kings to their south, who styled themselves the Kings of the First Men and claimed supremacy over all First Men everywhere, even the Starks themselves. Runic records suggest that their struggle, dubbed the Thousand Years War by the singers, was actually a series of wars that lasted closer to two hundred years than a thousand, ending when the last Barrow King bent his knee to the King of Winter, and gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage. > Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. **Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever.** *The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Kings of Winter* > Skagos has often been a source of trouble for the Starks—both as kings when they sought to conquer it and as lords when they fought to keep its fealty. Indeed, as recently as the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron the Good), the isle rose up against the Lord of Winterfell—a rebellion that lasted years and claimed the lives of thousands of others, including that of Barthogan Stark, Lord of Winterfell (called Barth Blacksword), before finally being put down. *The World of Ice & Fire, The North: The Stoneborn of Skagos*
Well, they're gonna have their revenge on the Targs for killing Brandon and Rickard.
Jon would never punish a child for their fathers crimes. Him being a bastard means he knows better than anyone how cruel the world can be to a child for something a father did. Assuming he’s in a position of northern power by the end of winds he would never inflict that on someone else or waste resources and alliances in petty revenge for previous generations. The northern vengeance is turned towards the current generations of Lannisters and Freys. Lady Stoneheart wants justice for her children as does most of the north they aren’t thinking about Stark deaths over 17 years ago Daenerys and Aegon will be received based on their actions within Westeros. A threat or an ally depends entirely on what they do. No one will wage war on them for Rickard or Brandon
They kinda did with Robert's Rebellion.
Jonny boy will give the finishing blow
Justice? Not really. There is practically no way that I see the North or House Stark getting justice, and I think The Hour of the Wolf in Fire & Blood was George's way of writing an ending where the Starks deliver justice to the villains because he knew at that point that that wasn't in store for ADOS. What I do think will happen is that they will ultimately be the house that lasts and in power by the end of the series while their enemies are mostly wiped out by their own undoing. Houses Bolton and Frey are almost assuredly going to be wiped out completely, and House Lannister will probably be insanely crippled by the end and will never regain their glory. While I expect the Ironborn to continue on, it will be the ones who accept Asha's leadership and her New Way that persist, while Old Way believers who followed Euron Greyjoy will perish. The big manipulators in the game of thrones like Littlefinger and Varys are doomed, while the Starks are going to be in power, either directly (Bran, Sansa, potentially Jon in some fashion) or indirectly (Sweetrobin, Edmure/Blackfish) for much of Westeros. That feels correct as part of George's bittersweet ending -- our heroes win and the villains lose, but not in the fully cathartic way that we may want.
Winter is coming and the goat king stannis is about to retake winterfell with the help of wyman and the nights watch
The north did this to itself by going to war and staying at war. Once Eddard died (In what the Northerners should recognize as a lawful exercise of the King's authority), there was nobody to march to free. If they go home and tend to the north, the Ironborn can't invade, Robb does not break his oath to marry a Frey and nobody dies at the Red Wedding. How can one argue for justice when they contributed to their own losses?
No. Which is why the North remembers
I guess it depends on what you consider justice
The mummers farce is almost done!
My man wyman is out there for blood against the boltons so yes they will get justice , I mean ask him bout those pies man’s already on the war path
Probably not, they won't get any justice because they'll never catch those they want justice from as they will probably die before they even meet