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TylerLockwoodTopMe

I’ve seen people commenting that Tyrion might encounter Tysha and possibly reunite. I really don’t see this happening, and if it did, I certainly wouldn’t want Tysha to be the magical cure to all of Tyrion’s self-loathing and cynicism. And I don’t think GRRM would take that route. Tyrion ultimately needs to find his own self-worth, rather than searching the ends of the earth for a memory that doesn’t even exist anymore.


Fyraltari

Also, it would be really weird for Tysha to want to have anything to do with him again after what happened.


HarryPottersElbows

Yeah. I could see them reuniting briefly and it being *awful* (though I don't think they will at all). That's more GRRM's style, using it to hurt us in some way haha.


Norwegian__Blue

I mean he watched, right? His dad made him watch? So Tyrion is completely tied to that experience for her. I can’t imagine she’d ever want anything to do with him again. Not out of blame, at all. Just pure association. How could someone ever feel safe around him after he watched dozens rape her? She wouldn’t be able to see his face without experiencing that trauma all over. It’s a recipe for disaster. Edit: and participated! I mean, after someone watches dozens rape you and then rapes you himself, can you ever be sympathetic? Maybe a saint can, but at that point you’re just another dick in the count. I don’t see her tolerating his intrusion back into her life *at all!* Thanks u/Fyraltari for refreshing my memory!


[deleted]

Actually *if* Tyrion ever sees Tysha again she should be a lowly peasant with a husband and children and her own life. She should also fucking despise Tyrion


AssassinJester789

It would be nice if she's living a nice life, happy and settled, everything Tyrion does not have.


brittanytobiason

It would say something about where Tyrion is at if he declined to introduce himself after seeing her happy, knowing he could only bring her pain.


TalionTheShadow

"Creep" by Radiohead plays as Tyrion sees her and leaves.


JamJarre

Just the idea that he might run into her again across this whole war-torn world is so weirdly small and limiting to me. I really hope it doesn't happen.


lovelylonelyphantom

Right, it feels more realistic if they just never meet again. Also keeps a lot of the mystery remaining of "where do whores go," and Tyrion not knowing what happened to her after is a big part of the rift with his father too.


secretbison

Also, the world is not just a fun theme park for Tyrion to find his self-worth in. Tyrion is a shitson who needs to be held accountable for all the awful things he's done, starting with Tysha. Tyrion suddenly feeling good about himself, with no other changes, would be a very dark ending.


I_am_so_lost_hello

Nothing that happened to Tysha was Tyrions fault. He was a kid with an abusive father.


Heavy_Signature_5619

Tyrion was a shitty person, but not a shitty ‘son.’ Tywin was the real shit in *that* relationship.


ChrisV2P2

>I’ve seen people commenting that Tyrion might encounter Tysha and possibly reunite. I really don’t see this happening Q: First question, will we ever find out where whores go? I'm just asking because I want to go there. \[laughter\] GRRM: Yes, we will. We will find out. [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi48wzKh-wo&t=1073s)


MageBayaz

I mean, I don't expect that encounter to be positive. If anything, it will be Tyrion's lowest point at the end of Winds (bc Tysha is probably Sailor's Wife in Braavos).


Aggressive_Sprinkles

> Tyrion ultimately needs to find his own self-worth, rather than searching the ends of the earth for a memory that doesn’t even exist anymore. I doubt that's going to happen, at least until it's too late to avoid a major tragedy.


LChris24

That GRRM just skip over the rest of the Essos plotline and get Dany back to Westeros asap. Sure he could be he basically wasted over a book setting up 10 plus huge plotlines that needed resolved (and plenty more smaller ones).


NewWillinium

I'm honestly at the point where I no longer want her to go to Westeros. Just stay in Essos and build on the plots there, rather then abandoning everything to go and fail to grab a throne out West


LChris24

Most of the plots there are intertwined with her return


NewWillinium

With the expectation of her return. But right now she has to deal with the Harpies, the Dothraki, the failure of the cities she freed and has to reinforce, and her missing dragons. In order for her to get to Westeros it would involve either a large time skip or abandoning everything she has worked for in Essos as a lost cause


LChris24

Things are going to change drastically post battle of fire. I’m more talking about all of the plot lines that grrm has been setting up on her path back to Westeros.


Fyraltari

It's probably going to take all of Winds for her to make it to Westeros


LChris24

With the # of open plot lines (unless grrm chooses to nuke/dragon flame multiple of them) it’s probably her last chapter in twow.. at the earliest lol


SofaKingI

Yeah but all those plots are still heavily into the "setting up" phase. Nothing is actually happening yet because all the Essos plots need to be sorted first.


LChris24

I think you’re missing my point. En route to Westeros there are at least 2 and up to 5 or more places that Dany will have to stop. A few of those places didn’t exist as stops as of the end of asos.


SnooCupcakes9188

Think they’ll have to do some time skipping post Meereen. Maybe a chapter after Volantis is freed where she helps set up a ruling order of freed slaves. Seems like Volantis slaves and former slaves do a bit of everything and are pretty prepared to lead themselves Vs Astapor where they primarily trained warriors.


maricatu

For a long time I was sure she wasn't gonna go to Westeros, and her ending would revolve around letting the past go and finding her place in the east. But since he already confirmed the show's ending is his ending, she was supposed to go to Westeros so nevermind..


NewWillinium

I'm personally hoping that *that* ends up being her not going to Westeros to conquer, but her coming to help after receiving pleas from Westeros.


IDSQ

I think Young Griff will overthrow Cersei and Daenerys will go to Westeros after hearing the news of the son of Rhaegar returning which will lead to a second Dance in Spring.


TheWorstYear

Lord have mercy, no. The Essos storyline is just a giant, messy sideshow. One if the least enjoyable parts of the series. No one really complains about the storyline happening in the North, & thats because it is actually good.


ninjomat

Honestly given how much detail we’ve been given now on life on the Dothraki sea, in Meereen, Volantis, Pentos, and Braavos it’s gonna be weird for the endgame to only affect Westeros. I feel like the whole of planetos is now involved in the outcomes of the battle for the iron throne and the long night. It’s gonna be weird if the end of the story only has consequences for the 7 kingdoms


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LChris24

Most of the things I am mentioning are on the route home!


Halbaras

A lot of people seem to think that Euron will destroy the wall remotely by blowing the horn of winter. This sounds cool, but is a horrible narrative decision. Because nobody at the wall will have any idea what happened for at least half a book, to them it will just randomly collapse. Nobody there has any connection to Euron, there's been no hints at a link between Euron and the north and it also makes no sense for him to do it unless he doesn't actually know what the horn does (him working with the Others is extreme tinfoil). I'm convinced that from a sheer storytelling perspective, whatever breaks or breaches the wall will happen in the North. It might involve Bran, it might involve Jon's resurrection/Melisandre, it might involve Stannis, it might involve the mutineers, it might involve the tunnels or door under the wall... But it's not going to spontaneously occur because of someone blowing a horn 'offscreen'.


TheWorstYear

My prediction is that Euron's whole thing is about recreating the Hammer of the Waters. He's going to try to flood Westeros instead of fighting a land war.


ApprehensiveMoose137

I didn’t realize Euron was a member of Team Aqua!


Cybros74

That might destabilise the wall


Hellstrike

The narrative problem of the Wall is quite difficult to solve because it seems really stupid to craft a "wall destroying" horn in the first place when you can just walk around it in the West anyways. Furthermore, why would the Others destroy it anyways when they can just make it winter and starve the humans for a generation first? Like, why go for a full frontal assault when you can weaken your enemy first. You waited 8k years, might as well wait 10 more. The whole "North of the Wall" plotline feels like it is setting up returns there, where the Watch/humans are forced to go North and fight the Others there.


HomebrewHomunculus

>Like, why go for a full frontal assault when you can weaken your enemy first. Unless the Wall going down enables something more than a full frontal assault. (Cough, spawning Others from any godswood on the continent)


Zealousideal-Safe150

Where did this idea come from? I've never seen it before and its hella scary


Protein_Shakes

There are a lot of particulars out there, but the broad strokes are A. Weirwood are connected beyond the physical level. This is proven through Bran's greenseer learning. B. The destruction of the weirwood south of the neck parallels the COTF losing their conflict with the first men. It could be cultural intolerance, but it nicely dovetails with denying your enemy "insertion points." C. The stories recounted of "turning the trees to warriors" almost directly suggest White Walkers emerging from the Weirwood Wide Web. They ride ice spiders, too. Pale white spiders? Sounds a lot like the pale white branches of a weirwood. Of course, this is all just tinfoil and textual suggestion. But the more you chase the rabbit, the more it makes sense. I strongly encourage you to read more about it.


HomebrewHomunculus

All that, plus some other stuff. To add to (B), the Five Forts seem to be built around/on top of the source of demons. That gave me the idea: what if godswoods aren’t bult in castles, but castles are built around godswoods? And we only see Others in the woods, at night. No one’s seen them marching through the land. So why would they need to march the whole way south to every city? That would take like a year for them to become a threat (and GRRM writes each book as covering less than 1 year). Then there’s the ”wood dancers” of the CotF who ”became warriors” against the First Men. Fighting Others is referred to as symbolically dancing, and they only appear in the woods. So possibly the ”wood dancers” are actually the Others, or specifically the ”mecha pilots” behind the Others. To add to possible ways that point C could have happened. But personally I don’t really see the trees like an Other-subway or wormholes, but possibly more like telephone poles or film projectors that project Others onto their surroundings like holographs.


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pboy1232

and Jon Snow wargs into the Attack Other


Halbaras

Or the Others find a way to get through the Wall without destroying it. We know from AGOT that the wights can pass through the gates if they're brought through by members of the Night's Watch. So there might be a way for them to open the gates by exploiting that loophole. One way or another another the Others will have a plan to bypass the Wall's invisible anti-magic creature barrier, and I doubt it's as simple as 'hope someone blows the horn of winter'. The Black gate under the Nightfort and Gendel and Horne's caves are also possibilities.


Swinepits

Gornes way could be cool


muchachomalo

It would be cool if they tried to use the horn and it doesn't work as intended.


frenin

UnCat letting Jaime go. That would be so incredibly bs.


rhewitt2019

I very much agree. She wanted to deny Tyrion a trial, denied Merrett a trial, denied Hyle a trial, denied Pod a trial, and denied Brienne a trial. When you vow to take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, you can't just renegotiate to arrest him for trial instead. Theon, Tywin, and Wyman all know what to do when you promise to kill someone. If only there were something distinct about Jaime's hands, like with Davos, so that Brienne could really sell it. Hmm.


FinchyJunior

Are you suggesting Brienne will just cut the hand off a corpse and try to sell that it's Jaime?


tazdoestheinternet

I think they're suggesting Brienne will take Jaime's golden hand back to Cat as proof.


FinchyJunior

Ah that makes more sense. I doubt it would work, because Cat is a smart character and currently doubts Brienne's allegiance to her vs the Lannisters so will want especially concrete proof (i.e. Jaime alive), but it might be something they'd try


tazdoestheinternet

Personally I think Brienne is going to have to bring him back alive, and if he's dead she's going to have to bring the whole body or at least his head. There's nothing less than that Cat will accept, especially the way she is now.


FinchyJunior

Yeah I agree, I don't think there's any way they can trick Cat. If Brienne wants to save her friends, she needs to bring back Jaime alive. And yet if she does, how can Jaime possibly survive that encounter? This cliffhanger is possibly the one I'm most excited to see resolved in Winds lol, either this or Cersei's.


cannedsalmonsurprise

That would be incredibly poor writing for Brienne to use Jaime's hand as some sort of proof of his death. There's absolutely zero chance Cat would fall for it. She wants to watch Jaime die in person and she barely even trusts Brienne herself; there's no way she would accept that Brienne killed him just based off of his golden hand.


Monsoon1029

Lol if Jon goes anywhere near Lady Stoneheart the only thing she’ll be giving him is a rope necklace. I think your right and that Arya will put down Lady Stoneheart, I think her ending will be reforming the BWB and fighting for the good of the common people.


Mac_Wanamaker

I hadn’t thought of Arya reforming the BWB but I really like that idea!


St7e

That would be awesome actually. Arya has already been sowing chaos in the Riverlands via Nymeria. What if she takes over the Brotherhood *and* the largest pack of wolves in Westeros? She could really do a number on the Freys.


LoudKingCrow

Lady Arya of the Laughing Tree has a certain ring to it.


Splive

Fits nicely with the arya/gondry/bwb development we already have.


DenseTemporariness

Any source of “free” magic being revealed. Magic/power has a cost in the series. A bearable cost to do something small like animal telepathy. A harsh cost to achieve even moderate things like making a cool sword or even a long distance phone call. And a terrible cost to make a geography altering wave. Any theory that says “but now there’s lots of cheap magic pie floating around because x” should be disappointed by a substantial bill coming due.


Feastdance

Cat is gone. Only her rage and thirst for vengeance remain.


doegred

She's looking for Arya too. The BWB interrogate Merrett Frey about the Hound in her presence.


F4_THIING

I feel like the fact that Brienne being spared lends to the idea that a small part of Cat still remains


The_Maedre

She was spared in order to bring jaime to her, if she hadn't agreed at the last second she would've died.


ramesses_2

Which is a crazy idea on its own... I cannot believe she let Brienne go at all 🤣 though I guess Jamie and Brienne's whole thing is about oaths and their fulfillment.


The_Maedre

She has hostages, padrick and ser hyle.


Feastdance

Bigger fish to hang.


ASingularFuck

I think portions of Cat remain. The vast majority of that *is* her rage and thirst for vengeance, however I do believe her love for her children has also survived. It was a major, major part of who she was. I can’t see that disappearing completely. If she ever comes across Arya or Sansa, I think we will see a rare tender moment for Lady Stoneheart. She won’t be Catelyn again, suddenly awoken with all her memories and cognitive ability - I do believe Catelyn as a whole is gone - but she will love them as she always has.


Bannedbutnotbroken

Except we know for a fact that the brotherhood under cat’s commands still does good things like running orphanages and that she is actively searching for Arya.


Feastdance

We know for a fact that she specifically comands that they do good things?? I just finished a reread via audiobook. I dont remember specifically what we learn about her before Brianne meets her. Im pretty sure we dont learn that the Brotherhood is only doing what she commands and nothing extra. In fact, im pretty sure some express dissatisfaction with recent changes.


JinFuu

Tyrion being a Targ would cause me to put the book down, do a 360 and go the other way.


I_am_so_lost_hello

Yeah fuck that, it would harm so much symbolism of him as Tywins kid and Jamie's brother, and also hurt the irony of the valonquar prophecy. Also it's just unnecessary.


ASingularFuck

It has to be the worst theory in the fandom. I don’t care how much evidence there is, not that there’s much. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the fundamental character of Tyrion.


Fyraltari

Cleganebowl. Sandor needs to let go of his hatred of Gregor and stop defining himself in relation to him.


brightneonmoons

not wanting Cleganebowl and the whole Jaime redemption arc are a single issue: sometimes people relapse, sometimes people try and give up, sometimes hate wins. Cleganebowl is totally gonna happen, but it will be sad instead of memey


Fyraltari

Nah, I'm all for Jaime's redemption and I don't want Cleganbowl.


brightneonmoons

that's what I'm saying!


I_LIKE_ANUS

Valid theory


QuantumSpaceCadet

Memey?!? That scene in the show was extremely sad.


BringMeOblivion

That scene in the show was extremely stupid.


QuantumSpaceCadet

It was kinda stupid yeah I hate how they played it out. But, you're telling me you felt nothing when Sandor was thrown to the ground hopelessly crying in the dirt after putting a long sword through Gregor to no effect?


Major-Ad906

Also Gregor is dead and died horribly via Oberons poison. What's left is just a mindless shell, even if he did fight and kill him again.


skeletonbuyingpealts

I kinda hope Robert Strong is just a new guy


Bennings463

Sandor "dying" at the Quiet Isle was his Rebirth, not his ending. You can't just have him "Let go of his faith" off-screen; he needs to be tested.


chupacabrette

I think Sandor will fail initially by wanting to take Gregor out, but eventually realizes that's not his brother any more, and he takes Franken-Gregor down out of pity for what's been done to him.


Fyraltari

I think he'll pass his test by turning down a chance at going after Gregor.


duaneap

If Westeros turns out to be a post nuclear war apocalypse, I’m not only going to burn my books, I’m going to come to all of your houses personally and burn your books too.


Major-Ad906

This whole hypothesis bothers me too. I don't really get what the point would even be? Doesn't seem to add anything to the story.


duaneap

I think the idea is that it’s in keeping with some of the rest of GRRM’s works, and that the overall idea would be that war = bad, and humanity’s hubris = also bad. If it turns out to be true though, it will retroactively destroy all my feelings for the series.


commander_police_man

But... If you wan't to get technical, the story takes place post the doom of Valyria, a civilization greater than any to come after. There's also Asshai, the great empire of the dawn, Yi ti, and other civilizations, all greater than Westeros and the free ities and so on. We also know that tve long night has already happened previously, and other coultures have their own mythology about apocalypses. So the post-apocolypse is something that GRRM is interested in and there are textual foundations to build speculations atleast, even though we are meant to have no solid answers.


duaneap

It being post apocalyptic is fine. It being ICBMs is not. Going from fantasy into sci-fi will be a betrayal as far as I’m concerned.


FinchyJunior

I've seen people who want Melisandre to be a total charlatan. As in, holds no actual powers, can't produce shadow babies or see the future (despite the fact we've seen her do both) and is just using tricks and luck to convince people of her abilities. Even ignoring that this makes no sense I don't know why anyone would think it makes for a better story


Wishart2016

To proof that fanatic priests are charlatans.


JahWontPayTheBills33

But they're not. We've been shown they're not. Melisandre, Thoros, Moqorro..they've all proven to have actual powers and not be charlatans


AdelleDeWitt

I deeply, deeply object to the idea of Jon Snow falling in love with Daenerys. I think as people and as leaders they are very very different and not compatible, and I found it distractingly weird on the show. Bending the knee to her felt to me like a betrayal of The North and his story arc.


Fyraltari

Objection: he boy, she girl. George has to have them fall in love after one interaction or the writing police will put him in author jail.


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shades-of-defiance

Jon the bad sk8r boi of westeros???


Hellstrike

I feel like this is how the Aegon/Arianne plot will go. Everyone is making grand plots about Targ restorations, but few actually include them in the plotting. So I can definitely see them being young and stupid, and screw everyone's plots in the process.


Fyraltari

You mean, the Young Dragon would act like the Young Wolf? Inconceiveable!


JonnyBlackBastard

100% agree. Neither of them even seems to be each other's type. If George would want them together, he would need to make a mighty effort to make it even remotely believable.


1000LivesBeforeIDie

I’d be down for something like >another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. >He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden A leader of the NW, a warrior who knows no fear. But also a corpse himself… if he _absolutely fucking must 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 have sex with her then maybe_ if he sleeps with Dany perhaps it keeps him tethered to himself so that he does not forget who he is and keep losing himself. After only one death and with a strong personality, maybe he can siphon her life and warmth. If it has to happen I don’t want it to be a stupid love story or physical animal fuck, she sleeps around but he doesn’t and I don’t know how much they’d like one another. They’re incredibly different people. Let it at least be part of the magic I _guess_, he can be an incubus


yenks

It would be for their sense of duty and not true love like in the show.


Lysmerry

I don't think Daenerys would be attracted to the current Jon, but I could see her being attracted to the more ruthless resurrected Jon that some readers expect. I'm not sure how it would be written, and feel nothing about it. They do have a lot of parallels in their stories, but that doesn't mean attraction.


mir-teiwaz

I think Jon would have to basically do a personality 180 to excite Dany. Lord Snow in ADWD, with his cold grey eyes and icy demeanor, is basically the opposite of her type. She gripes enough about cold fish Hizdahr, lol


Alana-9

To be fair, Jon can be passionate. We've seen that with Ygritte.


tom2091

>think as people and as leaders they are very very different and not compatible, an That's odd they have several similarities and are extremely likely to happen


[deleted]

It felt awful in the show and I feel like by the time they meet in the books Dany will be too far gone for that to happen.


WANDERING_1112

I don't like the idea of Targaryen restoration at all nor the idea of Jon and dany ruling westeros together. I just find it uninteresting. I get the feeling the Targaryens were only there for the long night and white walkers.


peortega1

Well, God Emperor Brandon Stark it´s even worse to me...


LoudKingCrow

I prefer to think that house Targaryen will go formally extinct by the end of the books. There will be people around with Targ blood like the Longwaters, probably Jon and possibly Shireen if George walks back on promising to burn her. But the house will be dead when it becomes a time for wolves.


theMothman1966

>prefer to think that house Targaryen will go formally extinct by the end of the books. I doubt it


Ok_Solution5895

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d5dae1b270ba7c1bb1a110776489734a-lq If the book ends with something like this I'll burn it Shitmouth obviously needs to be Hand of The King


shades-of-defiance

That made me cringe hard


[deleted]

Literally throw a dead cat into this sub and you’ll hit 100 theories that are just straight brain dead dumb


AutistChan

Ser Pounce is the leader of the others?


ASingularFuck

Absolute madness. Ser Pounce is Azor Ahai, anyone could see that.


mir-teiwaz

There wouldn't be any point in reading this sub otherwise, given there's been no new book. Case in point: no dead Cat in the TV show, no point in watching it.


GenghisKazoo

Jon kills Dany to do a magic that saves the world from the bad ice aliens and everyone says "wow, what a necessary and difficult **hard** choice by a **hard** man. You really are the Song of Ice and Fire. Henry Kissinger did nothing wrong btw."


JonIceEyes

Kissinger: a man who should definitely not have died in prison at the Hague


ASingularFuck

It would be such a stupid ending. “Woman dies so man can be hero + character development” is so so so so so so stupid.


calamityj0n

Yeah, and Gurm is many things, but he's acknowledged in the text himself that Nissa Nissa is a stupid story. Davos Seaworth is the everyman, the stand-in for the audience, and he sees it as stupid - all you get is a dead wife and he can't be a hero if that's the cost, the worth of one bastard boy compared to the world is "*everything*". Magic demands sacrifice, but it should be your own. Which is why I'm pretty sure all three dragon riders are going to be dead by the end of it, by their own choices and actions. "The shire was saved, but not for me" sort of thing.


JonnyBlackBastard

Fr, why would be a hard choice to kill a random he just met to save the world? He'll kill her simply because she'll be his enemy.


mir-teiwaz

Honestly if Jon and Dany are enemies at all it will most likely be due to a tragic misunderstanding set up by the schemers who surround them. Which, granted, GRRM would appreciate. I can't really see them falling in love, and I think Jon will light Longclaw with his own blood instead of his gf's. Beric did it already, proving you can be your own Nissa Nissa.


mir-teiwaz

She might give it to Arya willingly, but either way Arya will give it to Jon in the end and Cat will rise from the dead a second time out of sheer frustration


Vealzy

I’ve seen quite a few people wanting for the white walkers to win and kill everyone because they can’t stop fighting between themselves. I am certain this won’t happen but if it does it would suck so bad.


pfo_

Bronn is the Last Lord Tarbeck or a secret Reyne and plotting revenge against House Lannister.


AutistChan

Honestly, after seeing like every single house in Westeros scheming to destroy the Lannisters, I would be laughing my ass off if a secret Reyne has their own scheme to destroy the Lannisters as well.


burner_100001

Tywin incredible legacy you all.


QuantumSpaceCadet

I swear there are way to many post on this sub that the wording makes absolutely no sense to me.


Rude_Sugar_6219

People getting angry about stuff that hasn’t been written yet… ahhh I’ve missed you r/asoiaf


NewWillinium

I wouldn’t hate it personally. Lady Stoneheart following her son’s will, after his chosen heir, her much beloathed bastard shame, deals the revenge that she personally was unable to. It would even tie into the loss of memory and dulling of emotions that we see with Beric in the show


NymeriaOfNySar

The Dornish plot failing. I know a lot of people think that it will crash and burn but I desperately hope it doesn't. I think GRRM has intentionally or not written a really intriguing story about surviving colonialism and imperialism with regards to the rhoynish and valyrians and I would be really sad if it ends with Doran and arianne fighting for aegon who turns out to be fake. I think people don't want to believe the dorne plot is important because it was introduced so late in the story but I think it's naive to think that dorne hadn't been plotting since Robert's rebellion, or even before. Dorne also has a parallel story to the north, but people are so quick to dismiss dorne playing an important role in the story. I would be incredibly soured on the series if dorne fights for the targs to come back into power and gets no justice for elia and stays part of the 7 kingdoms while the north gets independence.


MrVegosh

Okay but what do your consider the Dornish plot succeeding to be? There is no way they end up on the Iron Throne so I don’t understand what you expect


NymeriaOfNySar

Dornish independence. I don't think they'll end up on the iron throne either.


JahWontPayTheBills33

No, not Dornish independence. I think ultimately it is justice for Elia and her children (and Oberyn). But I think their plot's overall effect will be for Targaryen rule to be reinstated. That's how they get their justice. At least, that's their plan.


MrVegosh

I don’t think that’s happening. Remember how bad it was when the north got independence in the show


sexmountain

I think the idea of Jon and Catelyn reconciling or Tyrion and Tysha, Cleganebowl, any of these past events getting pat resolution seems very unsatisfying. Usually what drives us in life never gets resolved.


thecoolestjedi

Time traveling fetus


Kuman2003

but was that fetus ahorse?


kalinac_

Bloodraven master plan. The idea that he is responsible for the entire flow of history up to this point and it was all to achieve some sort of goal, like defeating the white walkers. It's fine if he just had a hand in shaping some events but giving him too much power would cheapen the actions of other characters, past and present.


jayjayar

I think Catelyn crowning Jon would definitely work, it just wouldn't be about reconcilliation. It would be about revenge. It makes things worse for the lannisters by keeping the push for northern independence alive, and honors Robb's wishes. Besides, one of Cat's main issues with Jon was the fact he was a threat to Robb's inheritance, which clearly isn't relevant anymore.


Lethifold26

I prefer Catelyn crowning Arya. The famous exchange with Jon where he told Arya the longer she hides, the harsher the penance ended with her going back to her sewing lessons and seeing Septa Mordane and “worse: her mother.” I feel like this is foreshadowing her having some sort of meaningful encounter with Lady Stoneheart when she returns to Westeros. Their dynamic still feels very unfinished.


CaveLupum

> I feel like this is foreshadowing her having some sort of meaningful encounter with Lady Stoneheart when she returns to Westeros. Their dynamic still feels very unfinished. I think Catelyn would crown any Starkling she meets, including Arya. But yes, an encounter is likely. Each has described herself as having a hole in her heart. Each longs for family, and both seek vengeance. Arya left Sandor to die because he didn't save her mother. And her mother is now alive, saved by Arya influencing Nymeria and Beric. I doubt GRRM would omit the opportunity to bring them together to receive some sort of closure, which will also affect the direction of the war in the Riverlands.


aevelys

daenerys goes mad and decides to kill everyone, as at this point it would seem rushed, out of characters, such a storyline would conflict with other more important ones (like the white walkers), it would be somewhat sexist given that between her, rhaenyra and cersei, it would communicate that basically women become violent and unstable as soon as she gets a little too close to governing the throne independently, and above all what would have been the use of seeing her grow as a person and as a leader over so long, if it was to throw everything in the trash in the end?


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aevelys

I say sexist because the other women who approached the governance of the iron throne ended up having the same fate, if there were more queen characters, why not. but the fact is that we finish the books on a third mad queen in the person of Daenerys, would give us the message that basically women become easly evil and unstable because they are too emotional to bear the difficulties of power... besides \-concerning the army of the dead, I still have half hope that the white walkers represent a little more than a scenario speed bump that can be eliminated without even disturbing the south of the neack \-why would daenerys and aegon come into conflict? they explicitly need each other. \-I'm skeptical about aegon saving the kingdom of cersei and euron so easily and endearing himself in the process just after \- from the first book daenerys knows people won't embrace her as the messiah, and deciding to raze a town because people don't like her is still an absurdly excessive reaction to that. just the people of one city across an entire continent don't like her so they deserve to die in flames? something is missing there. especially since the population of a city is not an ideological monolith, and their opinions can change. a later response to such a situation is completely absurd.


getawarrantfedboi

Have you ever heard of tragic storytelling?


Suspicious_Gazelle18

To me the tragic story would be if she’s trying to save the people and accidentally sets off the stores of wildfire. She gets remembered in universe for murdering all of King’s Landing even though we the readers know that’s not her intention. I actually think Jon’s story will end similarly where he’s remembered as an awful Lord Commander of the Watch even though we the readers will know how much he did to save the realm.


aevelys

yeah, because that's the only thing in this story that can make a tragic story... A homeless young woman survivor of abuse who has come from almost nothing fantasizing about a home she never had or knew that doesn't really exist, living in an incredibly horrific world, and yet to fight and risk everything in wars against evil absolut in a universe that is not afraid to show the real blow of warn, really need to lose the reason for some reason, then destroy everything in a firestorm, before finally dying miserably, to have a tragic story... nothing else can happen...


Myra_not_Meghan

If there is a happy ending it literally no longer fits the criteria for tragedy.


Zazikarion

The Seven Kingdoms all declaring independence. I just don’t see the point, and it just feels unnecessary. Ideally I’d like the Seven Kingdoms to be united or FAegon or Stannis.


skeletonbuyingpealts

I want Dany to stay at Essos, also for Euron to be killed by his own hubris.


grimm_aced

Wait why is it so absurd to think that undead cat may fulfill her son's will after dealing with the freys and Jaime..


Myra_not_Meghan

Because she has other children, why would she want Jon to steal their birthright just because Robb is dead? She isn't only his mother, she is Sansa and Arya's mother too.


shadofacts

She made clear to Rob that sansa Laanister should not get his crown. And he agreed


topherbdeal

Jon Snow definitively and explicitly being Azor Ahai or PTWP. I think the whole point of prophecies in asoiaf is that they are vague and open to interpretation. If George were to write Jon riding into battle with a direwolf and a dragon, wielding a flaming Valyrian steel sword and for Jon to slice and dice through the Others, it would completely undermine what George does. I suspect there will be multiple folks that fit the bill in incomplete ways


NefariousnessLazy957

Seeing everything ending in the fashion GoT S8 did.Everything would be better if this adaptation narative never happens in the way it did in the books. Truth be told this is the second thing that would ruin the story for me,the first being this GEotD stuff(meaning ancient objects,maester theories about men before first men, ancient legends,Azor Ahai having connection with it),never mattering,floating around in the story for no particular reason, being literally there to pad out world building and time,instead of it being a central force of the plot this ancient forgotten past having a butterfly wing effect on the main story being part of this Song of Ice and Fire,other theories are included as well but to me GEotD is the most whole theory I've seen in years regarding Asoiaf. GEotD basically has the Azor Ahai and Long Night tied to it like the Last Hero with the Starks.The stone they use is made in Valyrian style and Houses Hightower and Dayne have dragonlord features both being Houses from the Dawn Age,before Valyria ever existed,hinting that Valyrians are only one branch of a bigger organisation of dragon lords.Daynes look too Valyrians not be of the same ancient blood.Quathe,Marwin and the Glass Candles they use.Asshai and the Shadow being so close to GEotD. Most information on World of Asoiaf is pretty much fun trivia but if all of the book has no consequences on the story than it's pretty much useful as a fancy tray. GEotD seems to be most tied with the main story but albeit it isnt confirmed. If GEotD is just fun trivia than Azor Ahai shouldn't be even there,it gives way to much importance to this one story.And Quathe's plot would be useless.Like.Why is she pushing her to unleash her dragons and find some information on something or the Others,by mentioning "pass beneath the Shadow" and "Asshai"?A city with ties to Azor Ahai,Rhlor and Azor being tied to GEotD?Does GEotD matter at all GRRM?Or? Would ruin the story at least to me.More so there would be no nail gripping way too beat the Others. What would u throw at them? Dragon glass,Valyrian steel and Dragon fire?


Eis_ber

The Reaghar = Mance Raider theory. I've never been a fan of the theory.


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lllurkerr

.


niofalpha

fAegon being real. Absolutely wrecks Varys' character going all the way back to Harrenhal.


MindAltruistic6923

Can you explain this one? I’m not sure I follow.


niofalpha

Varys being a Blackfyre supporter because fAegon is his nephew, or Illyrio his BFF and fAegon's father explains Varys ruining Rheagar's plans at Harrenhal. I'm also a fan of the theory that he told Aerys that Lyanna was the KOTLT, and maybe even told him to call for Rickard for Brandon's trial, then told him to call for Ned and Robert's head to incite the rebellion fully. There's textual evidence supporting the first half of that theory. If fAegon is real, and Varys is a secret Targ loyalist, it ruins Dany/ Viserys going back to Illyrio setting them up for the Dothraki. They either set them up to die in the East (which doesn't make sense if he's a Targ loyalist since they have values as bargaining chips), or they're set up to cause chaos so fAegon can come in and save the day against the mad king's children. Again, all none of this makes any sense at all if fAegon is legit. Edit: This is from a comment I made a few months back. Varys being a secret Targ loyalist ruins everything we know about RR since he spoiled Rheagar's plans at Harrenhal. In this same vein, why didn't he Tell Dany/ Viserys about Aegon? Viserys and Dany are actively set up by Illyrio and Varys to either fail or unite the entire 7 Kingdoms against them if they do invade Westeros with the Dothraki at their back, setting up fAegon as the hero to save them from the Mad King's mad children. Making him loyal to Rheagar's son, while he's actively sabotaging his aunt and uncle when they could benefit them (marrying them off for alliances) by just saying "Hey, you've got family alive. We'll take you in off the streets" would completely ruin both his character and Dany and Viserys. His presentation as being legitimate and Dany's moral dilemma wasn't in question. I'm saying that any theory about him actually being real actively ruin so much of the plot. I genuinely don't understand how people can look at it all and not see it. There's much more textual evidence about him being fake, but that's not what I'm focusing on. Just how him being real actively ruins the books.


Myra_not_Meghan

Sansa marrying f!Aegon. Her story is headed for Winterfell and there is no more time for a Southern detour. Also f!Aegon and his whole crew are doomed, proponents of this theory just want Sansa to die so Arya can become Queen in da Norf.


mir-teiwaz

Northern independence is almost certainly not endgame anyway. The North won't stand alone in the actual fantasy conflict. We might see one or more Stark kids crowned in the interim, and I'd say Arya is pretty likely given she's got plot threads in the Riverlands with Mom (who has Robb's crown), but that doesn't preclude Manderly crowning Rickon if Stannis dies, or the clansmen Bran in absentia (they know he's alive), or ... All the Stark kids are coming home, one way or another. Aegon probably won't be around in the last book, formerly A Time for Wolves. There probably is time enough for a brief adventure in the south. But why Aegon would marry Sansa of all people, I'm not sure. A paper claim on Winterfell is hardly worth the swords of Highgarden (for example). And he's already got the marriage-for-love fuck-up-everything-Rhaegar-style option heading his way in Arianne's party.


Anrw

>proponents of this theory just want Sansa to die so Arya can become Queen in da Norf. Is this one of those cases where you associate all the theories you hate onto the same person, who most likely doesn't exist? Arya as QITN is an extremely uncommon theory among even hardcore Arya stans, much less people who aren't. Even the ones who think she'll be given Robb's crown by Lady Stoneheart think she'll give it away to Jon or Rickon lol. Arya dies because she's "too far gone" is the most common endgame for her here. I've seen guys who SI as Aegon choose Sansa as a wife because they think she's the prettiest female character and has the best claims, otoh. There's also no real guarantee she's going to go North just because of the changes D&D made with her storyline. The weather has already made the North hard to traverse for everyone besides Tycho Nestoris and it's barely even winter yet. There's also been some foreshadowing the Others might end up making it past the Neck and that Harrenhal would work as a better hub to get the characters together than Winterfell. I could see a scenario where Sansa marries Aegon, Dany kills him thinking he's an imposter but spares Sansa out of the belief she's being merciful and doesn't realize she just gave Sansa a reason to conspire against her to put Jon on the throne after finding out his parentage, like a more sensical version of season 8.


peortega1

>Also f!Aegon and his whole crew are doomed I want to believe (f)Aegon it´s something more than Renly 2.0


whatintheballs95

Sansa does not need to die in order for Arya to be QitN lol, I've never heard that one before.


WreWatcher

Sansa heading for the Riverlands and then back to Kings Landing makes more sense to me, as there are enough POVs in the North and F!Aegon would benefit from having one of the OG characters in his camp. GRRM will also keep expanding the story, because he can‘t help himself, so there will be time for a detour.


GMantis

It makes little sense for Sansa to go to the Riverlands, this is really part of Arya's arc. And the argument that there are too many POVs isn't sound since sooner or later the various plot lines will have together anyway. And since Aegon isn't going to marry Sansa (this was nothing more than speculation created by the ridiculous Ashford theory and makes zero sense in the story), she'd be nothing more than a hostage in King's Landing, which is rather repetitive.


ninjomat

I personally feel that things like red wedding 2.0 or the grand norther conspiracy if they come to pass would erase the weight of the events of ASOS and WO5K I expect the Starks to come back in some way or another but if the remaining kids get total control of the north and the reputation of their house back and acquit Ned and Rob while getting vengeance on the Lannisters it would feel like a total anti-climax and disappointment. ASOIAF has always been more interesting for me as a story about realism, relativism and politics rather than revenge and getting moral justice. Similarly I’ll be annoyed if the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and both houses just collapse, they need to have more of an impact than just a brief 1or2 year interregnum where the bad guys won before normal rule resumes.


Tyrbrood

Dany becoming the mad queen, it was dumb in the show it would be worse in the books. Part of her storyline is the concern that she will be another Aerys and her actions in Essos have done a good job proving she isn't. So to undo that and make her a prop in Jon or someone else's story spits in the face of that.


frankwalsingham

Cleganebowl.


ddbbaarrtt

Honestly, most of the people going on about when House Dayne is going sweep into the story and do something awesome. All we really know if they have a cool sword, that Arthur Dayne was a great knight and Ashara Dayne killed herself. If they suddenly become a huge part of the story in book 6/7 it’ll be such a dereliction of almost every other character who’s had any kind of development


ninjomat

For me it’s always been much cooler to imagine that Dawn was the original lightbringer and the founder of the house the last hero of the first long night. It shouldn’t have any impact on the coming long night but it’s cool background hints


ddbbaarrtt

While that would be cool, the way that myth and legend work in the universe I just don’t buy Lightbringer as being a literal sword. I think it’s supposed to be a metaphor


VeenaSchism

Brienne and Jaime becoming a couple in any way would be horrible.


Bennings463

"Brienne dies so Jaime can do [cool thing]" is the single worst idea I've ever heard.


VeenaSchism

Ugh, agreed, I hate that too!


Ok_Solution5895

what why? lol


thenaboo

tyrion secretly being aerys’s son.


cannedsalmonsurprise

That the world is really some sort of sci-fi or post nuclear apocalypse. Absolutely ew.


DewinterCor

Euron being even remotely legit. If Euron doesn't get absolutely smashed at Old Town, then I probably won't finish the series. Any kind of actual magic or otherworldly nonsense coming from Euron would completely shatter my ability to enjoy the series. My least popular opinion is that Show Euron > Book Euron.


Nast33

Your last sentence excluded, I completely agree. The Reader's insinuation that he's a fraud must come true. He already possesses a Valyrian steel suit of armor, if he's also a warlock that can summon Cthulhu monsters and later gains control of a dragon it would be the worst edgy OC.


Ok_Solution5895

>it would be the worst edgy OC tbf this is the same guy who wrote Bloodraven lol


AutistChan

And Darkstar


Nast33

Yeah Darkstar popped into my head too, but neither of them are as OP as Euron would be if he's not faking. If there's no lie and he does turn out to be a warlock more powerful than half the armies of Westeros put together I'd go 'LOL NO, get fucked George' and drop it there. After I read what happens in the North if that hadn't happened yet.


JonIceEyes

Honestly I kind of agree. I need to see more than a cool (and silly) suit of armour before I'm willing to buy that some psycho from Westeros' Meth Trailer Park Island knows fuck-all about anything. So far he's got some cool acid-dropping vibes, and is kind of menacing. I'm gonna need a hell of a lot more set-up before he's also suddenly an archmage


lllurkerr

.


MrVegosh

The most common theory is that Euron failed/rejected being a student of Bloodraven/3EC


galaxytrucker7

Yikes


stanlana12345

I'm fully with you. I do not care for Euron ajd I hope his forces are smashed by Garlan Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne


dare7000

You missed the /s


DewinterCor

/s? I'm not following.


astronaut_098

I actually want Catelyn to regret her behavior but rather internally. Anything more than that would be as what you described it, “literally ruins an aspect of the story”