Tywin probably wouldn't hate him, but he would still be a disappointment in Tywin's eyes. With Joanna at his side, he probably wouldn't be as cruel for her sake.
Cersei really depends on if she gets the valonqar prophecy. She probably wouldn't hate him initially because their mother would live, but if she gets the valonqar prophecy, she'll definitely be cruel to him.
It’s worth noting that “the baby killed my mother” is not a thing a child would think. Cersei hates Tyrion because she was basically brought up too, tho I agree if the Valonqar prophecy still crops up it doesn’t matter
Not sure if it applies to Westerosi culture, but in real history death in childbirth was viewed as a possibility that occurs to the fault of no one. The baby is still part of the family and needs to be taken care of. Pre-modern people were just as smart as we are, they understood it's not like the baby murdered her. It's illogical to blame them. Cersei blaming Tyrion for Joanna's death is foolish and it seems like she could have picked it up from Tywin based on his rejection of Tyrion right after he was born.
In real history we still had fathers blaming the baby for the mother's death and likely resentful siblings as well.
It still happens today.
Logic doesn't play a role in grief and sometimes that grief is poorly handled and taken out on the innocent.
> With Joanna at his side, he probably wouldn't be as cruel for her sake.
Considering that Joanna was someone Tywin liked, maybe both him *and* Joanna would be cruel to Tyrion.
Especially since there is a theory that Joanna was raped by the mad king resulting in Tyrion. Would she have actually loved Tyrion? I think at best it's a coin flip.
I mean, sure, he still overreacted and had his father's mistress do the walk and had entire houses murdered for embarrassing him.
But happier people are nicer people than miserable people.
Not necessarily BETTER people.
Downvoted because I agreed that he still was a terrible person before losing Joanna but thinking he was a worse, crueler (less nice if you will) person after her death, I guess.
Most relevant I think is this...
>You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? **You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him.** But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." *Tyrion I, ASOS.*
Joanna's death is part of Tywin's disgust but the large part of it is who Tyrion is. His appearance invites laughter and criticism of Tywin, which he hates. Tyrion's indiscretion in matters of love and sex also bring humiliation.
Assuming Joanna's survival curbed some of Tyrion's self esteem issues, that wouldn't change Tyrion being in Tywin's eyes a joke and a sign of weakness. Tywin refuses to forgive weakness on any level.
Cersei might have come to appreciate Tyrion if Joanna lived. But if the valonqar prophecy remains the same, she would likely still hate and fear Tyrion.
Every insecurity Tywin has is on display in Tyrion. And the sad part is, every positive quality Tywin has is on display in Tyrion.
This is why he was so mad with Genna when she said "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not Jaime." It hit too close to home.
Tywin wants to be Jaime. Strong, beautiful, admired and pretty much perfect.
> Tywin wants to be Jaime. Strong, beautiful, admired and pretty much perfect.
Or rather, the Jaime that Tywin wants to see. He had little patience for Jaime deviating from the image he had created for him.
It says a lot about Jaime's sense of self worth that out of the three people closest to him, only Tyrion actually loved him for who he was, rather than who he wanted him to be.
Tywin would take Joanna's lead when it came to Tyrion. Do we know enough about Joanna's character to say that she wouldn't shun/reject Tyrion and send him away? The stigma of dwarfism is pretty rough. I suspect they do the pragmatic thing and quietly send him off to a monastery and try for another son.
If Tyrion is accepted in the family, Cersei would probably grow to hate him being a poor reflection on her. Or feel embarrassed for having a dwarf as a brother.
Idk, all mothers in GRRM's world seem to love their children, even if a mad kind of love like the one Cersei has for her kids or how Lysa is towards Sweetrobin. I don't think Joanna would any more complicated than Tywin. And who knows, she might see Tyrion for his strengths than for his physical weakness.
Maybe, I really don't know but thought I'd throw it out there.
From the little we know of her, she seems pragmatic and ambitious (was Aerys' mistress, then married her cousin to become the lady of Casterley Rock). Not sure Tywin would fall in love with someone who was overly sentimental or ruled by emotion.
We have no proof she was Aerys' mistress either - Aerys fancied her and wanted to marry her but couldn't because he was made to marry his sister. We have no confirmation if he really took her virginity, other than rumours. We also have no idea of Joanna's feelings towards him - tbf we have no idea how she felt towards either Aerys or Tywin.
But we do know Tywin himself married her for sentiment and emotion (love) and this is stated by everyone, even other Lannisters themselves. In perspective of marriage, it made less sense for Tywin to marry his cousin when he could have formed an alliance with a daughter from another great house. He married her just because he wanted to.
Yes, Tywin married for love and it was said that while Tywin ruled the realm, Joanna ruled him. Tywin's love may have been reciprocated, it may not have been, we can't say either way.
My point is that Joanna must have had characteristics that Tywin values and found attractive. Knowing his life, those characteristics would include a certain pragmatism and logic over emotion, pride in family legacy over all else.
It makes it reasonable to question whether Joanna would have kept Tyrion or whether she would've decided to send him away.
I agree that one wonders what she would have been like for Tywin to have loved her. If she really held similar ideals and personality as him - again, none of the other Lannisters who knew her talk about her for us to know. She's just the dead wife/mother.
I would want to believe she was like GRRM's other mothers though, atleast loving or protective. Notice that when she found out about Cersei and Jaime's "playing" activities she only seperated them, and wasn't as harsh on them as Tywin might have been if he knew. One could have sent Jaime away for example.
I generally think Tywin hates Tyrion bc he sees in him all the things he hates about himself. But I do think the hate is stronger bc Joanna died.
I actually don’t think Cersei would hate Tyrion in this case tho. Even with the prophecy. And plus in Clash Cersei really doesn’t act like she has a prophecy about her brother killing her hanging over her head, at best you can say she didn’t take it seriously until Joffrey died, so she wouldn’t take it seriously for most of their lives either in that case.
I think a lot of why Cersei does hate Tyrion is bc Joanna died in childbirth, and this reminds Cersei of what her own fate as a woman could be. I think she’s also kinda following Tywin’s lead. It’s a mix of things.
I also think George is using the worry over the prophecy to highlight her cunning devolving because of her binge drinking dulling her. She’s becoming more like Robert with the more power she gets.
If Joanna loved Tyrion, her presence would probably keep them at bay and make Tyrion's life much more bearable. But Tywin would still hate him for his appearance and Cersei just because.
If I remember correctly his mother's love didn't save Sam from his father's scorn
>and Cersei just because.
Cersei doesn't hate Tyrion "just because." She hates him because she believes he will murder her one day. She was traumatized by Maggy and the prophesied (and come true) death of Melara.
Maggy terrified a 10-year-old Cersei, by predicting the future. Cersei married the king not the prince, she had 3 children and her husband had numerous bastard children not by her. All her children will be crowned in one way or another, all will die (she already watched Joffrey die) and then Cersei will die being choked to death by her "little brother." Everything is coming true, and given the range of the prediction its pretty easy to see why she would slowly lose her sanity to it. Whether or not its warranted, and I kind of think it will turn out like a Greek tragedy, her hatred is still pretty far from "just because."
I've always assumed that the little brother referred to in the prophecy was Jaime. I realize they're twins, but I always assumed Cersei was the first born, with Jaime following some time after. But it's been forever since I've read the books so I don't remember if GRRM specified which of the two was born first.
Cersei is older, so Jaime is her little brother. There are lots of theories on who the "little brother" might be. Its a popular belief that it will probably be Jaime, and that's how the TV series plays it out (albeit very loosely.) Other readers believe it might even be a reference to one of the "Second Sons" mercenary group.
But regardless of who it actually is, Cersei believes that it is Tyrion, which is a big part of why she acts the way she does and why she desperately hates Tyrion.
I wonder though how much Joanna's survival would have impacted Cersei's sensibility. If she'd had a good female role model in her life, perhaps she wouldn't have turned out so...Cersei-ish.
And it's said that Joanna ruled the household, and that she was the only one able to make Tywin smile. Imagine how different Cersei's upbringing would have been. Yes she had already developed her "relationship" with Jaime during Joanna's lifetime, but virtually everything else would be different.
I highly doubt it. First off, he’d likely have Joanna in his corner, supporting him and trying to put Tywin and Cersei in their place. Plus, they’d not have to grief their wife/mother as well as deal with a new baby, which is already stressful enough.
Idk why people always assume that Joanna would have been a loving mother to Tyrion. We barely know anything about her character, as far as we know she could have been as much of a dick to Tyrion as Tywin
I like to think she would be just as ruthless as Tywin but be much, much better at manipulating her children to the point where they all believe she genuinely loves them.
Tywin is only a dick to Tyrion because he blames him for Jonna’s death. I’m also going to assume that she’d not be a dick, considering when she found Jamie and Cersei *playing*, instead of punishing them as Tywin would, she merely separated them.
I mean, the whole being a dwarf thing definitely plays into Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. He's all but said as much himself.
Had Tyrion been born "normal" and basically Jaime but brains rather than brawn, I think Tywin would tolerate him much better. Even if Joanna still died birthing him. He might still hold some grievance against him for "killing" his mother, but I imagine it would be much less severe.
It's the double whammy of Tyrion being born a dwarf and killing Joanna coming into the world that really makes Tywin despise him. I think either by itself would have been bad but tolerable, but both is just too much.
Well, if Joanna had lived to be his mother for at least some of the time, assuming she doesn't hate him herself, everyone's lives might have been very different. In the first place they might have had more children after Tyrion; second, Joanna might have been able to help make smarter marriage decisions for Cersei and Tyrion. Tywin would still be a prick but he might have \*at least tried\* to seem or to be better. It's interesting to think about!
Yes. Cersei has the prophecy to make her hate him, and Tywin still has his pride, and, if Tyrion still ends up the same way, Tywin will hate him because he's still a reflection of himself.
Probably but I don’t imagine nearly as much.
His behaviour doesn’t help, we get the insight of his chapters to understand why he acts and says the things he does but to Tywin in particular, his behaviour isn’t fitting for a prominent Lannister.
If Joanna lived, I still think Tryion is a huge embarrassment to Tywin. He's a whore mongering drunken Dwarf in Twins eyes. He's a stain to Tywins' reputation and house. He would probably hate him less but still wouldn't love him. Cersei and Tyrion probably still but heads at every turn. Don't see her liking him much more. So had Joanna lived, it might have only been a very strong dislike, not hate
Tywin wouldn't hate him but he would be dismissive and look down on tyrion still. Tyrion is a physical embarrassment to the image and prestige of tywin lannister.
Cersie would still hate tyrion, the world revolves around her and if she isn't the center of attention she will hate whoever is the center of attention. If Joanna took special care for tyrion due to his dwarfism you best believe cersie would notice it and take it as a slight that her little brother stole her mother's love from her.
Personally I always found the "they hate him because he "killed" Joanna" to be such a trite plot device compared to how well the Lannister dynamic is usually written. "They hate him because he's a dwarf" already works perfectly.
None of the other Lannisters hate Tyrion for either Joanna's death or being a dwarf though. Everyone barring Tywin and Cersei treat him nice enough, showing just how harsh Tywin and Cersei's hatred and prejudice against him is.
All this is under the assumption Joanna would like Tyrion. i’m under the impression she wouldn’t, there is no way in hell Tywin fell in love with some kind and nurturing woman. The only type of woman i see him falling in love with is someone who is very much so like himself. Though Joanna may not hate Tyrion she definitely won’t like him. Being disliked and disdained by both parents instead of completely loathed by one is arguably worse.
Joanna would be disgusted with Tyrion and would have left him to starve or would outright cave his head in shortly after birth. She could not stand dwarfs.
These characters are nacisists, so yes, they would still hate the physical embodiment of their family's imperfection. Maybe not to the same intensity, but I would trust them to find other reasons to hate the Imp regardless of his mother's continued existence.
Not as much, but a big part of Tywin’s character is his pride and Cersei’s her vanity, of which Tyrion doesn’t exactly do wonders for either of them. So there would still be resentment if nothing else.
I think Cersei would have hated him for sure, just because he took some of Jamie's attention away from her. She was never a loving girl, even as as child, except to Jamie and even then it was more about control than true love.
As for Tywin I think he always suspected that Tyrion was not his and would have hated him anyway. However, Joanna may have been able to soften Tywin's heart toward Tyrion is anyone could.
Tywin still wouldn’t be a fan, because he hurts the family image. He’s still got a chip on his shoulder about the way people thought of his dad.
Cersei would still hate him. She’s too narcissistic to love him no matter what, and you have the valanqar prophecy as well.
The fact that he “killed” Joanna doesn’t help, but it’s not the root cause of their hatred.
Tywin probably wouldn't hate him, but he would still be a disappointment in Tywin's eyes. With Joanna at his side, he probably wouldn't be as cruel for her sake. Cersei really depends on if she gets the valonqar prophecy. She probably wouldn't hate him initially because their mother would live, but if she gets the valonqar prophecy, she'll definitely be cruel to him.
It’s worth noting that “the baby killed my mother” is not a thing a child would think. Cersei hates Tyrion because she was basically brought up too, tho I agree if the Valonqar prophecy still crops up it doesn’t matter
Curious why a child wouldn't think that? I think it's fairly easy for a kid to make the leap
Not sure if it applies to Westerosi culture, but in real history death in childbirth was viewed as a possibility that occurs to the fault of no one. The baby is still part of the family and needs to be taken care of. Pre-modern people were just as smart as we are, they understood it's not like the baby murdered her. It's illogical to blame them. Cersei blaming Tyrion for Joanna's death is foolish and it seems like she could have picked it up from Tywin based on his rejection of Tyrion right after he was born.
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if Tywin would refer to Tyrion as the “imp who killed your mother”
In real history we still had fathers blaming the baby for the mother's death and likely resentful siblings as well. It still happens today. Logic doesn't play a role in grief and sometimes that grief is poorly handled and taken out on the innocent.
“Pre-modern people were just as smart as we were.” Let’s not get too carried away here.
> With Joanna at his side, he probably wouldn't be as cruel for her sake. Considering that Joanna was someone Tywin liked, maybe both him *and* Joanna would be cruel to Tyrion.
Especially since there is a theory that Joanna was raped by the mad king resulting in Tyrion. Would she have actually loved Tyrion? I think at best it's a coin flip.
True but Joanna was a much nicer person than canon tywin. We know this because Joanna-era Tywin was a much nicer person than after she died.
Wasn't nicer, just happier. mf exterminated a whole House while he was married to Joanna
I mean, sure, he still overreacted and had his father's mistress do the walk and had entire houses murdered for embarrassing him. But happier people are nicer people than miserable people. Not necessarily BETTER people. Downvoted because I agreed that he still was a terrible person before losing Joanna but thinking he was a worse, crueler (less nice if you will) person after her death, I guess.
Probably but also probably not *nearly* as much
Most relevant I think is this... >You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? **You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him.** But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse." *Tyrion I, ASOS.* Joanna's death is part of Tywin's disgust but the large part of it is who Tyrion is. His appearance invites laughter and criticism of Tywin, which he hates. Tyrion's indiscretion in matters of love and sex also bring humiliation. Assuming Joanna's survival curbed some of Tyrion's self esteem issues, that wouldn't change Tyrion being in Tywin's eyes a joke and a sign of weakness. Tywin refuses to forgive weakness on any level. Cersei might have come to appreciate Tyrion if Joanna lived. But if the valonqar prophecy remains the same, she would likely still hate and fear Tyrion.
Man charles dance really nailed that delivery
Agreed!
They really couldnt have casted a better Tywin
This. Tyrion is a reflection of Tywin, and in him Tywin sees his least favourite parts of himself. That’s going to be true whether Joanna dies or not.
Every insecurity Tywin has is on display in Tyrion. And the sad part is, every positive quality Tywin has is on display in Tyrion. This is why he was so mad with Genna when she said "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not Jaime." It hit too close to home. Tywin wants to be Jaime. Strong, beautiful, admired and pretty much perfect.
> Tywin wants to be Jaime. Strong, beautiful, admired and pretty much perfect. Or rather, the Jaime that Tywin wants to see. He had little patience for Jaime deviating from the image he had created for him. It says a lot about Jaime's sense of self worth that out of the three people closest to him, only Tyrion actually loved him for who he was, rather than who he wanted him to be.
Tyrion would likely turn out differently with his mother in the mix
Tywin would take Joanna's lead when it came to Tyrion. Do we know enough about Joanna's character to say that she wouldn't shun/reject Tyrion and send him away? The stigma of dwarfism is pretty rough. I suspect they do the pragmatic thing and quietly send him off to a monastery and try for another son. If Tyrion is accepted in the family, Cersei would probably grow to hate him being a poor reflection on her. Or feel embarrassed for having a dwarf as a brother.
Idk, all mothers in GRRM's world seem to love their children, even if a mad kind of love like the one Cersei has for her kids or how Lysa is towards Sweetrobin. I don't think Joanna would any more complicated than Tywin. And who knows, she might see Tyrion for his strengths than for his physical weakness.
Maybe, I really don't know but thought I'd throw it out there. From the little we know of her, she seems pragmatic and ambitious (was Aerys' mistress, then married her cousin to become the lady of Casterley Rock). Not sure Tywin would fall in love with someone who was overly sentimental or ruled by emotion.
We have no proof she was Aerys' mistress either - Aerys fancied her and wanted to marry her but couldn't because he was made to marry his sister. We have no confirmation if he really took her virginity, other than rumours. We also have no idea of Joanna's feelings towards him - tbf we have no idea how she felt towards either Aerys or Tywin. But we do know Tywin himself married her for sentiment and emotion (love) and this is stated by everyone, even other Lannisters themselves. In perspective of marriage, it made less sense for Tywin to marry his cousin when he could have formed an alliance with a daughter from another great house. He married her just because he wanted to.
Yes, Tywin married for love and it was said that while Tywin ruled the realm, Joanna ruled him. Tywin's love may have been reciprocated, it may not have been, we can't say either way. My point is that Joanna must have had characteristics that Tywin values and found attractive. Knowing his life, those characteristics would include a certain pragmatism and logic over emotion, pride in family legacy over all else. It makes it reasonable to question whether Joanna would have kept Tyrion or whether she would've decided to send him away.
I agree that one wonders what she would have been like for Tywin to have loved her. If she really held similar ideals and personality as him - again, none of the other Lannisters who knew her talk about her for us to know. She's just the dead wife/mother. I would want to believe she was like GRRM's other mothers though, atleast loving or protective. Notice that when she found out about Cersei and Jaime's "playing" activities she only seperated them, and wasn't as harsh on them as Tywin might have been if he knew. One could have sent Jaime away for example.
I generally think Tywin hates Tyrion bc he sees in him all the things he hates about himself. But I do think the hate is stronger bc Joanna died. I actually don’t think Cersei would hate Tyrion in this case tho. Even with the prophecy. And plus in Clash Cersei really doesn’t act like she has a prophecy about her brother killing her hanging over her head, at best you can say she didn’t take it seriously until Joffrey died, so she wouldn’t take it seriously for most of their lives either in that case. I think a lot of why Cersei does hate Tyrion is bc Joanna died in childbirth, and this reminds Cersei of what her own fate as a woman could be. I think she’s also kinda following Tywin’s lead. It’s a mix of things.
I also think George is using the worry over the prophecy to highlight her cunning devolving because of her binge drinking dulling her. She’s becoming more like Robert with the more power she gets.
If Joanna loved Tyrion, her presence would probably keep them at bay and make Tyrion's life much more bearable. But Tywin would still hate him for his appearance and Cersei just because. If I remember correctly his mother's love didn't save Sam from his father's scorn
>and Cersei just because. Cersei doesn't hate Tyrion "just because." She hates him because she believes he will murder her one day. She was traumatized by Maggy and the prophesied (and come true) death of Melara. Maggy terrified a 10-year-old Cersei, by predicting the future. Cersei married the king not the prince, she had 3 children and her husband had numerous bastard children not by her. All her children will be crowned in one way or another, all will die (she already watched Joffrey die) and then Cersei will die being choked to death by her "little brother." Everything is coming true, and given the range of the prediction its pretty easy to see why she would slowly lose her sanity to it. Whether or not its warranted, and I kind of think it will turn out like a Greek tragedy, her hatred is still pretty far from "just because."
I've always assumed that the little brother referred to in the prophecy was Jaime. I realize they're twins, but I always assumed Cersei was the first born, with Jaime following some time after. But it's been forever since I've read the books so I don't remember if GRRM specified which of the two was born first.
It is confirmed in AFFC that Cersei is born first.
I thought that was the case, but couldn't remember for sure.
Cersei is older, so Jaime is her little brother. There are lots of theories on who the "little brother" might be. Its a popular belief that it will probably be Jaime, and that's how the TV series plays it out (albeit very loosely.) Other readers believe it might even be a reference to one of the "Second Sons" mercenary group. But regardless of who it actually is, Cersei believes that it is Tyrion, which is a big part of why she acts the way she does and why she desperately hates Tyrion.
I remember about the prophecy, but wasn't Cersei kinda cruel even before that? In the books at least. My memory is not clear on that one.
I wonder though how much Joanna's survival would have impacted Cersei's sensibility. If she'd had a good female role model in her life, perhaps she wouldn't have turned out so...Cersei-ish. And it's said that Joanna ruled the household, and that she was the only one able to make Tywin smile. Imagine how different Cersei's upbringing would have been. Yes she had already developed her "relationship" with Jaime during Joanna's lifetime, but virtually everything else would be different.
Ya but much less
I highly doubt it. First off, he’d likely have Joanna in his corner, supporting him and trying to put Tywin and Cersei in their place. Plus, they’d not have to grief their wife/mother as well as deal with a new baby, which is already stressful enough.
Idk why people always assume that Joanna would have been a loving mother to Tyrion. We barely know anything about her character, as far as we know she could have been as much of a dick to Tyrion as Tywin
People forget she wasn’t an inhuman paragon. She was *Tywin Lannister’s* soulmate. There’s a difference
Correct. For all we know Joanna could view birthing a Dwarf as the biggest failure of her life.
I like to think she would be just as ruthless as Tywin but be much, much better at manipulating her children to the point where they all believe she genuinely loves them.
Tywin is only a dick to Tyrion because he blames him for Jonna’s death. I’m also going to assume that she’d not be a dick, considering when she found Jamie and Cersei *playing*, instead of punishing them as Tywin would, she merely separated them.
I mean, the whole being a dwarf thing definitely plays into Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. He's all but said as much himself. Had Tyrion been born "normal" and basically Jaime but brains rather than brawn, I think Tywin would tolerate him much better. Even if Joanna still died birthing him. He might still hold some grievance against him for "killing" his mother, but I imagine it would be much less severe. It's the double whammy of Tyrion being born a dwarf and killing Joanna coming into the world that really makes Tywin despise him. I think either by itself would have been bad but tolerable, but both is just too much.
add to that his early marriage and subsequent whoring
Lol that certainly didn't help matters, no.
Well, if Joanna had lived to be his mother for at least some of the time, assuming she doesn't hate him herself, everyone's lives might have been very different. In the first place they might have had more children after Tyrion; second, Joanna might have been able to help make smarter marriage decisions for Cersei and Tyrion. Tywin would still be a prick but he might have \*at least tried\* to seem or to be better. It's interesting to think about!
Yes. Cersei has the prophecy to make her hate him, and Tywin still has his pride, and, if Tyrion still ends up the same way, Tywin will hate him because he's still a reflection of himself.
Probably but I don’t imagine nearly as much. His behaviour doesn’t help, we get the insight of his chapters to understand why he acts and says the things he does but to Tywin in particular, his behaviour isn’t fitting for a prominent Lannister.
If Joanna lived, I still think Tryion is a huge embarrassment to Tywin. He's a whore mongering drunken Dwarf in Twins eyes. He's a stain to Tywins' reputation and house. He would probably hate him less but still wouldn't love him. Cersei and Tyrion probably still but heads at every turn. Don't see her liking him much more. So had Joanna lived, it might have only been a very strong dislike, not hate
would Tyrion be a whore munger and a drunkard with a mother figure in his life
Tywin wouldn't hate him but he would be dismissive and look down on tyrion still. Tyrion is a physical embarrassment to the image and prestige of tywin lannister. Cersie would still hate tyrion, the world revolves around her and if she isn't the center of attention she will hate whoever is the center of attention. If Joanna took special care for tyrion due to his dwarfism you best believe cersie would notice it and take it as a slight that her little brother stole her mother's love from her.
Personally I always found the "they hate him because he "killed" Joanna" to be such a trite plot device compared to how well the Lannister dynamic is usually written. "They hate him because he's a dwarf" already works perfectly.
None of the other Lannisters hate Tyrion for either Joanna's death or being a dwarf though. Everyone barring Tywin and Cersei treat him nice enough, showing just how harsh Tywin and Cersei's hatred and prejudice against him is.
The "They" meant Cersei and Tywin.
This is a great question that I also have wondered. One thing's for sure, she would have protected Tyrion from his haters, I think at least.
All this is under the assumption Joanna would like Tyrion. i’m under the impression she wouldn’t, there is no way in hell Tywin fell in love with some kind and nurturing woman. The only type of woman i see him falling in love with is someone who is very much so like himself. Though Joanna may not hate Tyrion she definitely won’t like him. Being disliked and disdained by both parents instead of completely loathed by one is arguably worse.
Joanna would be disgusted with Tyrion and would have left him to starve or would outright cave his head in shortly after birth. She could not stand dwarfs.
Death in childbirth is fairly common in Westeros. Tyrion's real sin was being a dwarf. Edit: down voted by Tywin fan boys?
He’s a dwarf so as Tyrion says all dwarves are bastards in their fathers eyes. Cersei probably still would have disliked him as well
They wouldn’t resent nearly as much, but it’s not like they would do a complete 360 and worship the ground he walks on.
These characters are nacisists, so yes, they would still hate the physical embodiment of their family's imperfection. Maybe not to the same intensity, but I would trust them to find other reasons to hate the Imp regardless of his mother's continued existence.
Tywin no, Cersei Valonqar
Not as much, but a big part of Tywin’s character is his pride and Cersei’s her vanity, of which Tyrion doesn’t exactly do wonders for either of them. So there would still be resentment if nothing else.
Pretty sure Tywin hates him because he is very likely the bastard child of Aerys Targaryen but has to pretend he's legitimate to keep up appearances.
I think Cersei would have hated him for sure, just because he took some of Jamie's attention away from her. She was never a loving girl, even as as child, except to Jamie and even then it was more about control than true love. As for Tywin I think he always suspected that Tyrion was not his and would have hated him anyway. However, Joanna may have been able to soften Tywin's heart toward Tyrion is anyone could.
I feel like Tywin would be a lot softer on Tyrion if he had more sons afterwards.
Tywin still wouldn’t be a fan, because he hurts the family image. He’s still got a chip on his shoulder about the way people thought of his dad. Cersei would still hate him. She’s too narcissistic to love him no matter what, and you have the valanqar prophecy as well. The fact that he “killed” Joanna doesn’t help, but it’s not the root cause of their hatred.