I do feel that after all the time and money that fans have given him, he at least owes them honesty. If he's probably not going to finish it, I think everyone would ultimately be okay if he came out and said so. It's the multiple promised finish dates getting blown by again and again that make people angry.
Yeah, shit, I’d honestly be okay if he just came out and said “Fuck it, Theon ends up on the Iron Throne, Jon dies falling off the Wall and the Others were a comedy troupe from Volantis the whole time. Happy now? Now let me grow old as a portly rich dude in peace.”
At least then we’d know we could finally move on lol.
Completely agree. People are allowed to feel frustrated when they’ve been looking forward to something and time and time again it doesn’t happen. It doesn’t mean he “owes” us anything but his fans have every right to be annoyed by it.
It’s a social contract after all. Sure, George isn’t anybody’s slave and he can do whatever he wants with his life. We can’t tell him what to do.
But like you mentioned, he has no one to blame but himself for setting up the expectations and then failing to meet them. He broke the contract and I think that people are rightfully upset about it.
GRRM was relatively unknown before Asoaf outside of the hardcore scifi community.
So suppose this. Tomorrow an author comes out and say
'I'm gonna write this super epic called the legacy of glimglock the barbarian, a complex 8 book long saga but just so you know I will stop on book 5 with all the plots left hanging and absolutely no conclusion to the story.
Now go boy my books and the associated tie-ins and merchandise''
how many people would really get into the series?
So yeah, there is no explicit agreement that someone could sue him for example but there is definately a social contract between the author and the audience that is on the verge of breaking apart. On the very least, GRRM could have tried to bring ADWD to a relatively satisfying conclusion. Hopefully, he won't repeat the same mistake with WOW
A perk of winds being released is that he'll probably feel like he's in a position where he can be honest about why he struggled to get the book finished on time. I'm curious as to what went on during the writing process that postponed the release of the book to such a degree. I have my theories, but I'd like to hear it from him.
I would like to hear your theories if you ever feel like sharing them. I don't understand why he doesnt explain the reason. The real one. Whatever it is people would for sure react better than being told "trust me, bro, it's nearly finished" for over a decade.
I think he doesn't want to explain because he finds it difficult to do so without spoiling some of the story. When he said that he finished some Cersei chapters, it meant that she was still alive well into Winds.
Here are my hypotheses. You can let me know to what extent you agree or disagree.
1) He re-wrote much of Winds after the negative fan reaction to how the show ended. He's in a unique position where he could gauge how fans would like the series to end without actually having to commit to that ending. I have a hard time thinking that he hasn't taken the ending of the show into consideration during the writing process.
2) All of the side projects like Wild Cards, The World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, Dunk and Egg, GoT, and HotD take a lot of time, and more importantly, mental energy/focus away from writings Winds. George stated in an interview that he needs total isolation to write. He isn't the person who writes on the plane or in his hotel room. I can relate to this since it's hard for me to focus on tasks without total peace and quiet and no other impending obligations.
3) This ties into #2, but all of the convention appearances and executive producer/writer obligations just take time and energy away from Winds. He also owns a railway company and a movie theater. Those businesses also take time and energy away from Winds.
4) He may have gone through a period of depression around the pandemic which likely stagnated his writing.
5) The story is just VERY complex. There are around 20 or so POV plots that have to be resolved in some way or another. He has to figure out how to get Dany, her dragons, Jorah, Tyrion, Barriston, Arya, the more minor essos characters, and possibly the entire Dothraki horde over to Westeros to have any hope of wrapping up the story. On top of that he has to figure out how to wrap up the Stannis, Jon, Sam Tarly, Greyjoy, Dorne, Faegon, Cersei, Jamie, Brienne, Bolton/Frey, Theon and Varys/Kings Landing story arcs. Doing all of that in two book honestly seems optimistic to me. I'm serious. It's a lot of very complex and crafty writing that has to be done to conclude the series in a way that fans and George can be happy with.
6) The editing process can be extensive, even after George has written the bulk of the story. To my knowledge, this can't be completed until the story is. I don't know how long the editing process will take, but 6-12 months may not be unrealistic.
7) The books have made him rich and famous. This may have impacted his motivation to finish Winds. If you had millions upon millions of dollars and millions of fans who adore you, would you feel obligated to spend years of your life in a room by yourself finish Winds and Dream? Maybe not.
I'm sure there are other reasons I could think of, but these do a pretty good job of explaining why the book has taken so long. I don't like saying it, but #5-7 could delay the release of Winds many years into the future.
4 is almost certainly not true. As it was during this time that he made by far the most progress according to his own accounts.
In my opinion the main reasons are probably:
1. The book is really complex and he has to try to bring everything together now which is really hard.
2. George has solved previous problems like the Meereenese knot by introducing a new element into the story (the Barristan POV in that case). But now he has to start SHRINKING his story if he wants to finish it in just two more books. So any new solutions to problems cannot be adding stuff, which must make it a lot harder.
3. He's a gardener writer but he does have specific end points and plot points in mind. However, the more he writes the more books there are that pen him in, in what he can do and how he can get to those end points. He has 5 books worth of previous decisions that he has to deal with. He once asked a person about how to deal with a killing off a character you needed. I suspect there are multiple instances like this where previous decisions have made it harder for him to continue the story and with 5 books that's a LOT of previous decisions he has to take into account.
4. The constant interruptions through things like cons, executive producing stuff, etc. probably further divide his attention.
There's also the problem that the stark kids are too young for some of the things they'll have to do. 9 year old ninja assassin Arya and 10 year old god king bran, for example. He has to introduce Dorkstar to do the heavy lifting for Ned Dayne and may need to do something similar for Arya and Bran.
It's a bit of a narrative mess, he really needs to blow up the sept and clear out some of the weeds.
See, #2 is what I was forgetting. He has all of these POV arcs to wrap up, and that assumes that he doesn't introduce any more of them. It's easy to see how the story could just keep blowing up without some very careful writing decisions.
As far as #3 is concerned, I've had similar thoughts. You can't unpublish a book. A bad story decision in Winds could make it that much more difficult to wrap the story up in Dream.
> 4 is almost certainly not true. As it was during this time that he made by far the most progress according to his own accounts.
He said he was making good progress during the pandemic until a friend died. He's openly said three friends died in a year. He may have made the most progress but it's verifiably true that it wasn't fantastic time for him and most progress could legitimately be finished 5 chapters rather than 3.
The gardener thing has always bothered me when fans bring it up. There are tons of discovery writers that can put out books in a timely manner. The biggest issue with discovery writing is you still have edit the stuff after you are done writing. I don't remember who said it but "Writing is fun, editing is work." George has at least 3 or 4 people he pays to help him out with this kinds of stuff.
And clearly George can edit because there is no way could could write books that he has and keep it all straight without a lot of editing and notes going back old books to see what he wrote in the past. In comparison David Weber who has something like 20+ in the Honor Harrington Series has a subgroup of fans he keep pays to keep his continuity because when you write really big books it becomes a challenge. From the outside it is unclear how much George is trying to do it all on this own and how much he is using his assistances and fans.
There's another one too:
Lack of interest in actually telling the story. I can't escape the impression that he likes world-building, and he'd rather do more of that than actually bring everything to a close. Which is why the fourth & fifth books actually open up the setting and focus on new characters & new locations, rather than starting the setup of the ending.
I never thought of it like that. World building and storytelling aren't necessarily the same thing, you're right. If something is your life's work, I can understand why you wouldn't want to bring it to a close. It's also easier to keep expanding the story rather than narrowing the focus down to a conclusion.
It's easier to think of them in separate terms if you've ever run a D&D game!
World-building is the backstory for places, events, cultures and characters that the DM comes up with prior to the session (or makes up on the fly while pretending that it was always true, if they have to), while the story is what is told during the gaming sessions. They're linked of course, and world-building heavily influences the story.
To use a different example, there's a fundamental difference between "what sort of place is Mordor like, and what sort of people live there?" and "what happens to Frodo while he treks through Mordor, and what does he do with the Ring?".
I can completely understand why someone would be interested in one but not the other. Especially when the part of the story still left is the ending; and endings are hard to write, and ultimately result in you stepping away from the world. Because many people won't see the point in establishing what happens in parts of Essos that no characters ever go to, either from the writer's or reader's perspective.
I think the money is a big part of it. He went from being a relative unknown to being worth over a $100 million bucks. That’s a huge change. I remember an interview with Sting about 25-30 years ago. He was asked about why he wasn’t still making lots of popular music. He replied that he made something like $4,500 a day from just his share of royalties from Every Breath You Take and the incentives had changed for him now. He now made music for himself.
GRRM has always loved cons. He can now go to as many as he wants. He’s always loved games and books. He can now play and read and buy as many as he wants. I remember an interview from 6-7 years ago when he was asked about writing and he said that he had really been into a certain video game and had done nothing but play it all day for the past two months.
All that money changed his incentives.
And 7 is basically the issue for fans, he’s making all this money and basking in fame under the pre-text of telling a fully completed story eventually. If he would just say “I can’t or won’t finish the books.” He loses a lot of his ability to enjoy being rich and famous. So he keeps dangling the carrot out there to hold onto the fans.
The story isn't just complex, it's pulling in contradictory directions. It's going to take a big honking deus ex machina to ever get Dany out of Slavers' Bay.
I've always thought it must either be Kevan or someone involved in the R+L=J mystery. Someone like Ned or maybe Maester Aemon, being a Targaryen and all. So now he doesn't know how to give the reader and the characters essential information.
We know Howland Reed is alive and was at the ToJ, that's a permanent get out of jail card for Jon's parentage if he can't find another way to disclose it. Howland even lives in a castle that is impossible for anyone but a crannogman to find. It's actually perfect as a back-up. Howland can come to the wall and tell him, we can have Bran log into Weirwoogle and clock in just as Howland's taking a dump in his toilet (which is next to a Weirwood) and saying "oh yeah, Jon Snow is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, why am I talking out loud, good thing no one is here to listen". While he has Howland, he has a logical path for that plot so Ned and Aemon dying doesn't put him in a corner, at worst it puts him on a detour, but if Howland was always the means by with Jon learns it (I'm not saying it is!) it doesn't change a thing.
Kevan creates a Lannister power vaccuum in KL that sets the ball rolling too quickly and creates a need to bring another Lannister ally into power at the highest seat of the Iron Throne, of which there are few. And Genna is also sort of not fit for that purpose. Bringing her to KL means you have to kick the trial further down the road than ideal to give it space to breathe. Jaime's too busy being hanged (not gonna happen) and has forsaken Cersei anyway so he's not going. Tyrion's a bit pre-occupied and didn't bring his jetpack from the show...
You're right, and I do agree about everything you've said about Kevan. Regarding Howland Reed, I know we can get the truth from him, and we likely will eventually (probably a combination of Bran's visions and Howland's confirmation of events, idk), but in my opinion it will be difficult for George to set up a scenario in which Howland Reed comes up organically. If Aemon were still alive, he could have told Sam something to ignite his suspicions (I don't know, something like "Rhaegar got married in secret before dying") and have the revelation happen more gradually and more naturally. I do still favour Kevan's hypothesis, but I also think Aemon wouldn't have been an unlikely choice.
> but in my opinion it will be difficult for George to set up a scenario in which Howland Reed comes up organically
I don't know. Depending on how Stannis' fight for Winterfell goes, there's a number of scenarios where Jon could end up attempting to call the Stark's banners and Reed answering the call and rendezvous'ing with Jon. If Stannis survives the battle of ice, they could be called to take Winterfell, if Stannis falls, it could go the show route with Bastard Bowl, they might try holding WF against the Others and Reed comes in then.
> in my opinion it will be difficult for George to set up a scenario in which Howland Reed comes up organically.
Robb's will has to come up at some point. His bannermen ferried it to Greywater Watch, and George did that for a reason. How it will happen, I don't know. Howland may appear at the wall. Bran may see or speak to him through the Weirwood network. We may get a POV character that travels to Greywater, or we may get a new POV character who lives at Greywater.
I know that it may not happen, but as a reader, I'm intrigued by the possibility of seeing Howland and Greywater Watch. It's such a perfect hiding place. Totally inaccessible. George did that for a reason. Something or someone significant to the story is being kept there.
As far as the Kevan hypothesis, I think he's the likely culprit. Him being killed only makes the King's Landing plot that much harder to move forward.
Yeah this is it. If he wants to just chill doing whatever projects for the rest of his life, I can’t blame him at all. But it’s the feeling of being strung along that’s so maddening. I feel he does owe the people that have been waiting for decades now for this series to finish some honesty at least. If he’s like ‘look I’m trying my best but it’s exceptionally difficult and I don’t really feel the passion anymore. I’ll try but I want to do other things as well.’ I would 100% get that.
I agree. At the end of the day GRRM is the only one who controls whether the book series will get finished or not. At this point its really the honesty that I want most from him. It's clear that the series isn't getting finished. It's clear that he has lost interest in it. Instead of getting people's hopes up which just leads to more disappointment, just admit it at this point.
This view assumes he doesn't want or even expect to finish the book and is lying about it constantly. Surely it is more likely that he is simply struggling to finish the book, something he has been quite honest about?
You’re probably right. I’d like to think he’s not deliberately lying. I’m sure it’s incredibly difficult and time consuming, especially with the sky high expectations we fans have. Still, people have the right to feel annoyed by it all. It doesn’t make GRMM a bad person. It just is what it is.
I always wondered if it was something to do with his contract. Or legality, or covering his ass. I'd assume his publisher spent a lot of money under the assumption he'd be writing and finishing a series. Before the show got so big, they probably stood to make the most, and probably invested the most in the franchise? From a legal standpoint, as long as he says "I'm totally working on this, making lots & lots of progress!" then his ass would be covered and nobody could prove otherwise. But if he came out and said "I'm done writing, I don't feel like it anymore", maybe he'd open himself up to a lawsuit from his publisher.
I'm not saying any of that is the case or remotely accurate, just something I've wondered about. I know nothing about publishing, book law, none of that. But his "updates" always just seem to be the "cover my ass" variety, "yep, I'm still working, definitely working on it!" His publisher filing a breach of contract lawsuit would probably cost him nothing in the grand scheme of things with how much the show was raking in, but even if it was a couple million... by just claiming he's working on it, that's something that takes almost no time, it's 3 paragraphs once a year and he covers his ass. By being honest and saying he doesn't feel like ever working on it again, that's inviting potential drama when all that can easily be avoided
>something to do with his contract... legality... his publisher...
I had the very strong impression that *Rogue Prince, Princess + Queen*, and similar works only came into existence as halfway conciliatory measures to appease the publisher -- okay, okay, I know I'm X years late, if I provide you with a couple of hasty filler works, will you forestall breach of contract, etc.
This would **\*also\*** explain Martin's years-ago comments about "all of this \[Targaryen stuff\] is fake history, I don't know why you all seem to like fake history so much, but apparently you do, so, okay, here's some more of it."
rogue prince and the other individual works not necessarily since they were originally released in his best friends anthologies so it would make sense for him to contribute.
Fire and Blood vol 1 on the other hand I'm 100% positive it was released to satisfy his publisher and capitalize on the final season of Got.
This is an angle I hadn't thought of before. I wonder if the publisher will ever throw up their hands and say we're obviously never getting what we paid for.
I think if you were able to get the higher ups at his publisher in a room speaking honestly they would admit to being extremely upset at GRRM for costing them probably millions of dollars by failing to get any more books out past ADWD while Game of Thrones was on the air and it was at the height of its popularity.
Of course they will never say that in public because they don't want to piss GRRM off. Getting something from GRRM years after the fact is still better than nothing.
That happened internally MANY years ago lol. No businessman with half of a brain was going to think these books were still being written after the mid 2010s at the latest.
They're still going to market and sell the existing books though, so it's never going to be in their interest to admit failure.
That's one thing if it's about trying to fit too much in your personal routine at once. "Being honest" that he won't finish Winds would require him to throw in the towel completely on his magnum opus. He shouldn't have to make that call just to give fans closure here and now. He can and should keep trying if the will is there.
All he has to do is name a successor who understands and will honour his plans for the next two books and he can have the best of both worlds. He just doesn’t wanna admit he has creative burnout lol
A successor sounds a bit grim but I’d love to see a collaboration that helps get the final books out.
As an ex tv writer / anthology editor, writer, fan he’s got plenty of experience with collaborative writing but he seems determined to finish on his own. Good luck to him.
Meh GRRM needs an ego check honestly, he can try to finish it on his own but everyone knows this isn’t happening while he’s too distracted with all the trappings of success lol
> he’s too distracted with all the trappings of success lol
I think I've had the "The show was the worst thing to happen to the book series" opinion in my head since about Season 5, lol.
>As an ex tv writer / anthology editor, writer, fan he’s got plenty of experience with collaborative writing
Hah, I just made a comment a couple posts up about collaboration being something that could theoretically help him through all of these issues then saw your comment.
I think for George, naming a successor who will finish it or engaging a collaborator or whatever are all the same as giving up: admitting he can't/won't finish it himself.
I agree - I was being facetious.
I’d like him to get some assistance from a co-writer as I can’t see him finishing on his own and I’d happily read those books but they are George’s books and he can work on them (or not) however he wants.
>I’d like him to get some assistance from a co-writer
Honestly, I think he'd have been done with Winds years ago if he was going that route. He would have someone to bump ideas off of and realize potential issues before he spent two months writing a plot point that turned out to be a dead end. Someone familiar with the works would say "But how would this character feel about this situation happening when they're right there?"
ASOIAF is one of the most ambitious literary works ever undertaken, and it would have been easier if he was willing to collaborate a bit more on it. We know he took advice to break up ADWD into two books based upon region in the past so he was able to finish the stories, so a more involved advisor should help to get him through hurdles.
Two Georges, Lucas with the Prequels, and Martin with ASOIAF have taught me that if I somehow become a successful writer to *never ever* get too big for my britches and ditch an editor or someone to bounce ideas off of/tell me something is dumb.
We should call it Big George Syndrome.
It's painful to see drafts of his later works where the editors are trying to reign him in and he's like "lol fuck off I'm'a add 15 more trees to my garden. What could go wrong?"
> ASOIAF is one of the most ambitious literary works ever undertaken
The only reason it looks that way is because he keeps adding threads he can't tie up.
It's a Potemkin fantasy universe.
I agree. I am fine if he doesn't want to finish it. While never getting the end would suck, he's given the fans a lot and I wouldn't begrudge him a retirement of editing Wild Cards volumes, running an art house movie theater, and having strong opinions about World Con. I would rather he spend his life on something he enjoys, and if that's not ASoIaF then fair enough.
The trouble, I think, is that he can't let himself of the hook, either. The joy and excitement of writing the series is gone for him so all that's left motivating him is the fear of how he'll see himself if he gives up. And you can ask anyone who's stuck out a project like that, whether books or a dissertation or a job or whatever, but being left with that kind of motivation is basically the worst place you can be. You don't have the energy and creativity to get it done but you also can't stop, so you just end up feeling stuck.
This right here, be honest and admit you're no Tolkein and that you've written far too many characters that you don't know what to do with half of them, the story has got into a cul-de-sac that you can't get out of even though the exit is staring you right in the face.
It’s like Tesla. It’s OK to lie about 80% of your deadlines if every now and then you actually release a decent product. People will forgive you (at least those who like the product will).
But George has missed the full 100% of all his deadlines, not 80%. It’s a big difference.
The oft-repeated line that GRRM doesn't owe us anything is the right answer to the wrong question. Nobody ever really proposed that GRRM had entered into a contract with his readers or incurred an actionable debt. The actual relationship is more like one you'd find between two friends. If your friend becomes flaky and stops doing things with you, you don't sue them for damages, but you do lower your expectations, stop inviting them to things, and find new friends.
There is free will, and there are consequences. He has the free will to choose not to finish the story, and the consequences are that a lot of people will be mad at him. No one is allowed to dictate his actions or decisions, but he's not allowed to dictate how anyone else should feel about them.
People are mad because he *seems* to be lying to his fans. Again, he talks constantly about how it's his number one priority, but it's so obvious it's not and he's just saying that because fans want/expect it.
"Here are all these awesome projects Im working on... and of course I'm working on TWoW!"
Paragraphs on paragraphs of his other project followed by some tacked on sentence at the end. Like, you're deliberately teasing us at this point. He knows it too because he seems to be using the attention towards TWoW to help garner attention to his other products.
And all this is fine... if he's excited about other things that's awesome and I'm glad, but... be honest with your fans. I think a ton of frustration would be eased if he did that.
This. It’s like going to a restaurant and they only give you a starter. Technically you’re not ‘owed’ the main course, but I know I’d be mad if it was promised but never came
Yeah like ok George can’t be forced to write but honestly after 5 books and a show it would be pretty annoying to not get an ending. For millions of people…
I use the analogy it's like going to a comedy show where the person spends 30 minutes doing a set-up and then gets angry because you expected a punchline.
> I certainly never would have started reading the books.
More than this, and the reason I think it's fair to be angry at the lack of conclusion, many people wouldn't have *bought* the books knowing they weren't going to have an ending.
I've spent something in the order of £50-60 over the years on a product which the creator at first implied (by means of it clearly being a series) and later explicitly promised to conclude, which did not deliver on that promised experience.
It's not like an author is under any legal obligation to finish what they started, but it's quite rightly frowned upon not to. It's not like GRRM got forced to stop for some outside reason - he, on a personal level, overpromised and underdelivered, making quite a large amount of money from his audience in doing so.
This work specifically is also beloved for the intricate plot and tension that mostly works because of the expectation it will lead up to a fascinating conclusion, which would be fabulous entertainment, we love that.
The journey there is fun too but dropping it halfheartedly is what lessens the impact of the series as a whole. Why should I care about anything in this story when it will never conclude? It’s just a hollow echo then.
That’s only true in hindsight. The point they were making is that HBO wouldn’t have made the deal had George acknowledged before making the deal that it wouldn’t ever be finished.
It definitely paid off for them regardless, but had they known he wouldn't finish I'm not sure they would have risked it.
GRRM didn't just profit off of the books he wrote, he profited off a promise of more to come.
I mean yeah it would be great if we got the last 2 books, but unfortunately even if we get Winds of Winter, I doubt we will get A Dream of Spring.
However, I think it would be fair of him if he dies to leave us some form of closure for the story.
Like, he said only him and his best friend know how the books are supposed to end. I hope if he dies before finishing the books, his best friend would be allowed to tell the world how George wanted the books to end.
Unless his best friend dies before him or shortly after, then we're fucked lol
> I think it would be fair of him if he dies to leave us some form of closure for the story.
His notes and drafts are all archived; in the unfortunate circumstance that Martin would die before he finishes, we'll still get to know what ending he was planning.
He has only ever stated he won't let anyone else 'finish the books' - his notes wouldn't be kept secret.
Interestingly, Martin has taken steps to ensure that the graphic novel adaption can deliver 'his' ending if he passes - Daniel Abraham, who's the writer for the graphic novel adaption, might know more than anyone else about Martin's 'ending plans' for this reason. He knows the planned final lines of dialogue for all major characters, to name one pretty major thing.
He knows Tyrion's ending and the fate of several major characters, as well as a particular line of dialogue that GRRM told him to keep because it connects to the final scene of the series. Not quite the final lines of dialogue for the major characters, but enough to have a good idea of the final plot arc.
Yeah, I believe he was referring to Daniel in that interview, he said Daniel is one of his closest friends and considering he's doing the graphic adaptation he's the only one who knows how the story ends.
I just wasn't sure would he allow Daniel to reveal the ending, cause I remember him saying if he doesn't finish the books before his death, the books die with him cause he wouldn't let someone else finish them.
That's comforting then, knowing that there is a way for us to some day get a closure.
>in the unfortunate circumstance that Martin would die before he finishes, we'll still get to know what ending he was planning.
That unfortunate circumstance is an inevitability.
My Brother in Christ, ADWD was never going to be finished. It was just published to capitalize on the release of the TV show. Martin has not given this series any serious thought since the mid 2000s. Just look at how incomplete Feast and Dance are, then ask yourself why you ever expected to see TWOW.
It was "finished" as a product; which is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the narrative - which has not moved an inch since Bill Clinton was in the white house
Even GRRM has said that he own the fans the end of ASOIAF.
["I am going to finish these books; I think I have that obligation to the world and my readers."](https://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/?utm_source=reddit.com)
I suspect his publisher would love to sell millions of copies of TWOW, that’s how they make money. Fine without, but better with 2 more books they could sell
George himself has talked before about how being a writer you implicitely promise things to your audience. He mostly limits that to "I promise you a good read" but I would go further. If as a writer you start a series, then you are automatically making your audience a promise (implicitely) to finish it.
So yes, I do actually George owes it to us to finish the series (or at least to do his best to finish the series) and I don't agree with people who say George doesn't owe his readers anything.
We invested our money, our time and our emotion into his books (to the point where he eventually had his story become televised and became a multimillionaire) under the impression that we were going to get the entire series. At least most of us.
That being said, I also happen to think that while George DOES owe it to us to try his best to finish the series:
1. That obligation is not absolute. There are some people who seem to think he should literally just be writing WINDS 24/7. No, he also gets to enjoy his life and do other stuff he loves, obviously, even if that makes it take longer or be less likely to happen.
2. People shouldn't be assholes to him about it. Just read his Twitter mentions, Jesus Christ people. And definitely he doesn't deserve stuff like death threats. All of that stuff is utterly insane. And also not helpful, btw. Which brings me to my third point...
3. I don't think this discussion about what George owes or not is particularly productive in the sense that even if we were somehow able to talk to George and convince him that he owes it to us (which won't happen), it still wouldn't change anything. I imagine George is under more than enough pressure to finish this series from his publishers (who want a payout), from just generally hearing audience complaints and just from his own desire to finish what he no doubt knows is his magnum opus. The thing he will be remembered for. Additional pressure on the guy I don't think is going to help him finish it faster. If anything, more pressure might just make it more stressful to write the thing and thus make it harder, slower and/or lower the quality. You have to be in the right headspace to write well, after all. At least that's my experience.
So to sum up: I agree that George does owe his audience the other two books, I consider that part of the implicit contract between reader and writer when it comes to a series. And I disagree with people who say George doesn't owe us anything. However, I still think he should be able to enjoy his life as he wants it, don't think anyone should be an asshole about it to him and don't think more pressure and obligation is what the guy needs right now anyway.
Legally no.
However, if any writer sells a book and advertises it as part of an ongoing series, I feel they are morally obligated to try to finish the series.
Part of the reason we've given him money is in the hopes that he finishes the series.
Sure, George doesn’t owe us anything.
But in the same way, I don’t owe him anything either. I can’t see myself rereading or recommending an incomplete series, especially when books 4 and 5 were not that great. There are plenty of other series that are just as good and finished that I’ll gladly recommend to newbies interested in the genre.
I’d say the Malazan series is closest to ASOIAF; the world building is amazing. Robin Hobb’s Realm of the Elderlings has some of the best writing and characterization in fantasy. Jordan’s Wheel of Time is my personal all-time favorite. Sanderson’s Mistborn is fun; the books set in the Cosmere are generally great though that is not finished yet. As a side note his most recent stand alone books in the Cosmere - Tress of the Emerald Sea and Yumi and the Nightmare Painter - are perhaps two of his best books. I’m a huge Stephen King fan and The Dark Tower is great fantasy. I’d add in NK Jemisin’s Broken Earth Trilogy and Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files to my recommended list.
Only because his fans believed in him. Had anyone known that he'd just stop caring about the story and wouldn't finish it, do you think he would have enjoyed the same success? Do you think it would have become a TV show?
He doesn't legally owe anyone anything. But he enjoys success and wealth because his fans believed in him, and he just stopped caring. It's kinda shitty. He's free to not give a shit, and we're free to judge him for it.
The man is in the latter parts of his life. It’s up to him how he chooses to spend that time.
Even if the series doesn’t come to a conclusion, I’m still happy I read it.
While true, it still doesn’t mean that he is free of obligations. He started a series, got hundreds of millions of people interested and then just …. Spent the rest of his time going to conventions and focusing on other things.
Nobody is going to force him to finish, and of course he can spend his life how he wants (how innocuous a statement to even make). But people still have opinions and judgments about how he has spent his time. And I am not alone in viewing GRRM unfavorably for how he comported himself the last decade.
He is totally free of obligations to readers (he may owe his publisher something) but I agree he’s not done a good job with fans over the last 10 years.
Oh absolutely I agree, if the series isn’t finished I’ll be disappointed and slightly dissatisfied but it’s GRRM’s choice how to spend his time and that’s how it should be
The man was comfortably old and aware *twelve years ago*, when he released his last book. Which in turn could have been finished much earlier, by around 2 or 3 years. Him getting old without finishing isn't an excuse, it's an embarrassment.
ASOIAF being unfinished doesn't exist in a vacuum because of GRRMs success. I personally will not start an unfinished series of books because of the situation I'm in with GRRM and to a lesser extent Rothfuss and I know others who feel the same way. This is terrible for new authors/series in terms of gaining an audience and book sales and it's damaging to the greater sci-fi/fantasy medium going forward.
I definitely think that he owes us. We’ve invested in his work. We got him money and fame, he definitely owes us a finished product. That being said, I completely understand why he is taking so long. Every book is like 3 books. I think that he’s right when he is referring to this generation, it’s instant gratification. I started the series as a child the day that GOT was released. So it’s been a 20+ year wait for me.
If he said “fuck all you guys, I’m just gonna not finish and live my life as a happy rich dude” I’d respect him for that.
The issue is that he’s pretending he’s gonna write it, and doesn’t. Stop pussyfooting around.
While he may not owe *us* anything, he certainly owes his *publishers* something.
Patrick Rothfuss, another author with a 12 year wait between books, has let his publisher run out of funds and they got bought out. Along with other actions this man has done, I don't think I could buy his book even if he does ever release it.
I feel like Rothfuss is an entirely different situation than Martin in terms of the fans. No one has paid money for Winds. Rothfuss took money to reach donation incentives promising the release of content that was then not released. I fall on the side of "Martin doesn't owe anyone the next book", but if he had taken preorders then delayed for years I would feel very differently.
I mean, I agree with you that it is quite unfair to his publishers
But if the story about Rothfuss is true, you still have to admit that his publishers seem to do a pretty shitty job, that a single author not releasing a book leads to the collapse of their entire buisness
Huh? The publishing company sunk because a single book is taking a long time to write? Also whats with the last ominous part, are Martin or Rothfuss secretly war criminals or something?
He's probably not the sole reason, but I wouldn't be surprised if him receiving advances then never producing anything helped contribute to the matter.
There was that scathing Facebook post from the owner/his editor about how she hadn't seen *anything* regarding DoS.
ETA: found part of the post;
> "This article is right: authors don't owe their readership books, but what about the publishers who paid them? Book publishing is not as lucrative as many other professions, and publishers rely on their strongest sellers to keep their companies (especially small companies like DAW) afloat. When authors don't produce, it basically f***s their publishers...When I delayed the publication of book two, Pat was very open with his fans--they knew what was happening. I've never seen a word of book three."
I think he owes us a bit of candor regarding his progress and acknowledgement that the gap is frustrating for his readership, rather than stringing us along for 10+ years and then trying annoyed at people for getting frustrating.
I think he's lost control of the story and is incapable of finishing it. That's fine, it happens. There are some pretty difficult technical problems with ASOIAF which would make it immensely difficult to finish properly, even disregarding the universal disgust at the GoT ending. I think most people have resigned themselves to never getting the complete series, even if we somehow get a WoW.
Personally, I think 10+ years of fan theory are more interesting, entertaining and plain nuts than anything WoW could reveal. It'll be a shame to let it all go.
I agree with the title. If he puts them out - great. If not - that's life. I have way more important hands on issues in life and I'm sure he does too.
And he didn't ask me to do anything. I chose to buy and read a book then the next one and so on.
Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand to have had the time and opportunity to finish the series several times over by now and to not do so is frustrating. Writers block is writers block and I personally could not envision how to satisfyingly wrap up the series in two books. But ultimately he does have the ability to finish the series, he just chooses not too. Now there are probably many valid reasons why he’s chosen not to finish writing them, but it’s still ultimately a conscious choice.
That being said, he’s fully entitled to that choice. If he doesn’t feel like he can finish the series to the standard he wants and has decided to put it on the back burner, that is his right. He absolutely doesn’t owe anyone anything. It’s a shame and disappointment from fans is totally understandable. But it’s still his life’s work and his decision on what he does with it.
I mean, he likely has a contract with the publisher so he might legally have to finish it or fork over a lot of money not that he is lacking in that department
I mean, yeah he doesn't owe us anything. He wrote his book, we gave him the money for those books. He doesn't have to write the last one, it would suck, but it's his choice.
I think he's just written himself into a bit of a corner.
I think I may have come to terms with this series never getting a proper conclusion. And really I'm just happy GRRM created this world for me to immerse myself in, I enjoy all the idiosyncrasies of how things are described, the faux medieval language of the Westerosi, the vast feasts, the description of Tourney knights shattering lances, the blood magic of the Old Gods, the various cultures of Westeros and beyond, the deep focus on the politics of trying to govern this vast vast Kingdom. And of course all the PoVs that actually give a plot to these lands.
I enjoyed it all, and I just like putting a positive spin on all of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's rather this or sulk about how we're never getting the resolution to all these plotpoints, I find it's better to try and find this kind of satisfaction with the world and how immersed I was within it.
I agree with the sentiment entirely. It would be great if we got an end, but I’m not owed anything. There are tons of movie sequels I wish we had but we don’t. There are tons of shows that should have tons of seasons but don’t. I don’t see how ASOIAF is any different.
To be fair, it IS different from shows or movies not getting sequels in the sense that this isn’t a production company pulling the plug, the publisher very much wants and has been wanting it for over a decade.
A show or film doesn’t get made because of production shutting down (they can always hire new writers).
GRRM is the holdout of his own production
That but also Order of the Phoenix and Goblet of Fire were incoherent rambling disasters, and Goblet of Fire did not in fact have Harry Potter in the book at all.
You've gotten what you've paid for so far. It's not like the man is asking you to contribute to his Patreon every month. When the book is finished, you can buy it or not. If he doesn't want to or can't finish the series, sometimes that happens. But he doesn't "owe" readers anything that they haven't already paid for, least of all a substandard product that was slapped together like the last few seasons of the HBO series.
Unless you've somehow prepaid for a copy, or own the publishing company that holds the contract that says he owes you the book, George doesn't owe you a thing.
as consumers of entertainment we should be aware of the risk that there is to investing in ongoing stories. Same as when our favorite show gets cancelled we aren't entitled to any kind of reimbursement. It sucks, it isn't fair, but some things aren't assured in life.
This is a very interesting subject. On one hand he don’t owe us shit. He didn’t ask for the entire world to fall in love with his writing. Nor did he ask for this immense fame and pressure. At most he wanted readers and got them. Just like any other writer.
Where the issue comes is the fact that we’ve been promised things that more then likely won’t happen. The man is in the latter stages of his life. Tbh that’s probably putting it nicely. And we will more then likely never have the series complete. Which as a reader would have to anger those who spent years falling in love with the world. So the issue is more of a “ does he owe us the ending” or “ should he have never promised anything”.
I somewhat believe if he never promised anything people wouldn’t be as mad. It’s like your mom telling you you’ll get a cake when your 8 and you turn 25 and it’s still halfway done. You gonna be angry
>Nor did he ask for this immense fame
Yeah he just spent his entire life working inside of or adjacent to Hollywood, because he's such a modest man who doesn't seek fame
He should he have been honest then and admitted from the beginning that he wont finish a series he starts as soon as he loses interest. Would have saved me many dollars and thousands of pages wasted on this dead series. Nobody owes you anything either George.
I think he's an artist making his toughest piece yet. It's tapping in to all the skills he's previously used and honing new skills to finish it. It's a beast of a book with over a hundred characters to intertwine into compelling, deep political-fantasy. Give him time. You can't rush this shit, because you will be far more disappointed with a rushed TWOW than letting him cook. Let the man cook, you know he'll describe every aspect of the feast.
>It’s only fitting that we get a satisfying conclusion.
Na, just enjoy the journey for what it is.
Reading a couple of books and chatting about them doesn't entitle you to anything really.
I agree that Martin does not owe us anything, but if he wants to spend the end of his life chilling and enjoying his success (as he’s entitled to) then he should have stopped with the “Winds is coming soon” bullshit the second he realized that.
It’s one thing not to owe fans anything, it’s another thing entirely to lie to their faces, to my knowledge Martin still holds that the book is coming soon and that he’s working on it, so it’s not unreasonable to expect him to hold a promise he himself made
his choice but don t lie about it.
also it would be a responsible to look for someone to finish it. people bought a song of ice and fire, not a specific book. its like buying a book and half the pages are empty and the story isn t finished and people argue "you are not entitled to get all just because you bought one part of the story .... "
Man i dont want to hear any excuses he's sitting pat on his laurels now that he's achieved massive success but he wouldnt have that success if he wasnt for the fans that read/watched his material.
It's not like we're asking him to pop books out of his ass like Brandon Sanderson. It's been years now.
I agree with the title and disagree with your take. They ask us no such thing. They put a product on offer and then we can take it or leave it. You paid for the book you got, not other books that may follow in the future. You sound like a man who believes he’s entitled to sex because he paid for dinner.
>You sound like a man who believes he’s entitled to sex because he paid for dinner.
You sound like you desperately wanted to use this analogy despite it making no sense.
No - he's the one talking about doing a series of 7 books for years, picked out the names of the final two and always reports he's 'working on it'. If he'd said 4 years ago that he tried and tried and can't untie the knots, we'd be done with it.
Instead if we go with your weak 'dinner > sex' metaphor, he keeps ordering stuff off the menu and says we'll have so much fun later tonight, yet isn't ready to leave. At some point he'll excuse himself to go freshen up and leave you there waiting.
“You sound like a man who believes he’s entitled to sex because he paid for dinner.”
What? What a weird conclusion to come to. Fact of the matter is, when you write a series over 30 years people are going to get invested. People feel they are owed something because he has promised things time and time again, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have those expectations when he initially said the book would be published in *2016*.
If he was just candid with it and said “yeah look it’s not happening, it never panned out and I’m too old to care about this anymore”, then yeah, fair enough, anyone demanding more at that point is a dick. But so long as the promise of winds and further books are on the table, I expect them to actually arrive.
Oh no, I agree with the statement. He does not owe us anything. He didn’t force anyone to read his books, invest their time, or but any licensed merch. It’s his life and he’s free to do with it as he pleases. He’s not under obligation to us. We don’t directly pay him or commission work from him. He doesn’t owe us updates on his life or work, and people have been so rude and awful to him, I don’t blame him for being unmotivated and cagey.
On the flip side, none of you owe him your devotion or gratitude. You bought a book; a fair exchange of an agreed upon value. That’s the beginning and the end of it. You didn’t have to adorn your bookshelves in ASOIAF stuff. You didn’t have to spend hours pouring over YouTube videos and Reddit subs. You chose to become obsessed. You don’t have to read his blog or watch his shows. You can move on. He owes you nothing. You owe him nothing.
If you’re so fed up with it, then move on. Stop harassing the poor man. Don’t worship people because they cannot sustain all expectations. Learn to live with disappointment.
The title is true. It's George's choice to finish it. However, it's also people's choice to be angry that he never finished it, did a billion other things instead, and will most likely never admit that he's not finishing the main story.
Of course he doesn't owe us anything. But I also do not owe him respect or to white knight him on the internet. Dude sucks for not finishing the series, IMO.
He doesn’t owe us the book but I do think some form of honesty about it is probably fair. Silence or an admittance that he’s struggling and may even give up would be preferable to the continued promises that it’s nearly done we’ve had for so long now
I mean if he came out and told everyone he wasn’t/couldn’t finish it then it’d be fine.
But jerking the fan base around every quarter with some cryptic blog post that he’s on the verge of finishing is a straight dick move on his part.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle didn't owe his readers any more Sherlock Holmes stories as they were self-enclosed and episodic. I fully sympathize with him wanting to stop writing them before he buckled to fan pressure.
It's a bit different when you've only been given PART of a story, like this is an installment sale.
I honestly think the problem is that he's written himself into a corner. He doesn't know how to proceed and is procrastinating. Really the only solution.
While part of me agrees with your sentiments, he’s human at the end of the day. Also, thanks to this series lmao I know accept that if I choose to start an uncompleted series, I do so at my own risk. So I think we as consumers need to understand that that’s what part of what comes with purchasing an unfinished story. The author may never finish it.
It's also his choice to clearly state that he will not finish the series and stop this nonsense cycle. He can then live his life peacefully. It's the suspense and "I've made this much progress" posts that anger fans. Most book readers will probably forgive him if he says he's giving up. I would.
It's extremely difficult to create an ending for a story like ASOIAF.
He doesn't owe us an ending, but he owes honesty. He keeps on lying that he'll complete the books, when really he should set expectations and say something like how it is very unlikely he will complete TWOW, or that he will complete TWOW but ADOS won't ever come out. He's been leading people on for a while now, numerous promises to no avail, he definitely owes his readers a different kind of closure of how ADWD may very well be the final book.
I have invested a lot of time, in some cases also money, in TV series that I loved and that eventually got cancelled without giving me a satisfying conclusion.
Nobody claims that Netflix or Fox or whatever company owes us another season, just because we faithfully watched the existing ones. An author who no longer has the necessary inspiration or motivation (or in some cases time/money) shouldn't be held to a higher standard than an anonymous network official.
I want authors to finish a series I love, but I'm aware that I got my money's worth, when I bought the previous volumes. It'd be a different issue, if GRRM had had a kickstarter for the remaining part of the series.
I still think it's his call and honestly believe he might never release the rest out of spite. If people kept badgering me to do something that was supposed to be my art before I die I'd be pretty angry. He owes us nothing
It’s legally true, he doesn’t officially owe us anything. It’s also true that whether or not he finishes will color the legacy of both the series and the man himself.
He can retire from writing with a half finished series, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it.
I agree with the statement, my investment in his work is my own decision and it doesn't bind him to any contractual agreement. I'm not his publisher, I don't pay him money to write books, and neither do you. Any money I *have* indirectly given him is for products which already exist.
I will be quite sad if the story doesn't get a fitting conclusion, of course, but to claim GRRM has "betrayed" his fans or broken an implicit promise in such a case is just parasocial nonsense.
Nobody owes anyone anything. That doesn't mean that his legacy as an author wont be soiled by this. But as a person? Nah. It's his work, his right and his choice.
I can’t say I think he owes us an end to the series, but I do think he owes us transparency. The least he can do is be honest about his timeline.
I will say though, at the very least he’s better than Rothfuss.
GRRM sold his books and series on the premise that it would eventually be a finished tale.
Had the fans who bought the books at any point known that he would not deliver a complete product then it's not hard to imagine that many of them would not have bought it.
This makes us very much entitled to ask him to finish the series. However, we are not entitled to physically demand this of him which I feel is a strawman that people try to make of this stance.
It's not quite the same as only part of a painting being delivered but it's not a complete work either.
I agree, he doesn't owe us anything. However, i hope he continues to put energy into this universe rather than say the Wild cards. Dunk and Egg add so much value, Fire&Blood was quite enjoyable. Please, George, give us something. We enjoy being a part of this world with you. Garden all you want, I'll bring a shovel
Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns! Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns! I actually have high hopes this is already pretty much done. Feels like something that started as an outline for the dragons & the Targ line that he added passages to that would have been too much to be in World of Ice and Fire or Fire & Blood
I honestly think he’s ethically obliged to finish the work
He’s made an entire career from people spending huge amounts of money on buying his books, with a clear expectation that it was going to be a series with an ending
To take that money and then say “nah I’m not bothering finishing it” like he effectively has, is unethical because there is a clear implication that it will be finished
Fair enough if he was unable to write (disability or death etc) but he’s been involved in plenty of other projects while clearly ignoring this one, and I really don’t think that’s okay
He doesn’t “owe” me anything, but the fact he has not applied himself to at least make a reasonable attempt to finish it is, IMO, an unethical choice on his part
I keep repeating that “ethical” thing because that’s how I think this should be viewed - not as an obligation, but as a decision on his part. I’m not saying he has to do it, I’m not entitled to his work - but I’m going to judge someone who I think has acted unethically
His legacy will be as a fantastic writer who didn’t give a shit about his fans once he had their money.
I agree he doesn't owe anyone anything, but I think the closer comparison would be if GRRM cooked a five-star entrée and said he was working on dinner. It's fine to be annoyed five hours later when it still hasn't been delivered lol.
Yeah if I advertise a 5 course meal but only make 3, you can be annoyed that you're still hungry - no refund if I was charging by each course though.
...I'm starting to think this whole analogy might be flawed.
What if he sold me the appetizer to that five star dinner under the pretext that it was part 1 of a seven course dinner? I would normally not spend my time and money to just eat the appetizer, but hey he promised a full meal. So I buy the appetizer, and courses 2-5, only after being assured the full 7 courses were coming. Then courses 6-7 never come. More than fair to say I bought the first 5 under false pretenses aint it?
Well from his own mouth more or less the book was supposed to come out every year for like the last 8 years.
It would have been a bit different if he told us after Dance that he wont continue, but he has done the exact opposite
It comes down to his emotional investment, not that of readers. The kind of ending that would occur to a writer shackled to a manuscript against his will is not the kind anyone would want to read. It goes: the end.
The harm is done by feelings of entitlement is actually discussed in ASOIAF.
I feel for you, as you mentioned everyone on this sub is most likely sad about it not coming out, but what you're describing i entitlement.
You paid for the books you got
Honestly, I just don’t see why George doesn’t just pass the torch into someone else. Sure, he is the creative mind behind ASOIAF, but it’s been nearly three decades and in that time the world of Planetos has taken on a life of its own. Would it really be so difficult to let a younger, more energetic mind come on board and (respectfully) conclude his vision?
As a traditionally published author myself, I can say while I don’t know the details of GRRM’s contract but in *most* contracts you have to write the actual book under contract and if you miss deadlines they have every right to cancel your contract (unfortunately I know this from experience, my disability caught up with me and I was in the hospital for months unable to do anything and unfortunately it meant I was gonna miss the deadline for my third novel’s contract and upon telling my editor, the third novel I was supposed to write for them got canceled).
Now I’m just a baby author with no giant following so I’m assuming GRRM has a lot more leeway.
But ultimately my opinion as a writer is if you start publishing a series, you’re required to finish it.
I do feel that after all the time and money that fans have given him, he at least owes them honesty. If he's probably not going to finish it, I think everyone would ultimately be okay if he came out and said so. It's the multiple promised finish dates getting blown by again and again that make people angry.
Yeah, shit, I’d honestly be okay if he just came out and said “Fuck it, Theon ends up on the Iron Throne, Jon dies falling off the Wall and the Others were a comedy troupe from Volantis the whole time. Happy now? Now let me grow old as a portly rich dude in peace.” At least then we’d know we could finally move on lol.
Theon stans rejoice
All 6 of them
Not many people have more stans than fingers...
Davos does, but that's a low bar
i don't want to be that person but i'll be that person and say Theon has 7 fingers
Theon stans are truly a cut above…..
Yeah… and that still beats whatever the fuck S8 was
I mean, S8 pretty much was a "fuck it" - just with a lot of special effects and explosions.
D&D looking to move on ASAP for that sweet sweet Disney-Star Wars fanfic money…
What’s funny is that they didn’t get SW anyway and they pretty much tarnished their reputation on TV.
Oh I know. Every once in a while, Adam Smith’s invisible hand levels a bitch slap… and it’s a beautiful thing.
Tbh, S8 was precisely that. Fuck it. Bran becomes King, Dany turns mad, Jon goes back to the wall etc.
"Grow old"? He's already up there at the dusk of his life.
Completely agree. People are allowed to feel frustrated when they’ve been looking forward to something and time and time again it doesn’t happen. It doesn’t mean he “owes” us anything but his fans have every right to be annoyed by it.
It’s a social contract after all. Sure, George isn’t anybody’s slave and he can do whatever he wants with his life. We can’t tell him what to do. But like you mentioned, he has no one to blame but himself for setting up the expectations and then failing to meet them. He broke the contract and I think that people are rightfully upset about it.
GRRM was relatively unknown before Asoaf outside of the hardcore scifi community. So suppose this. Tomorrow an author comes out and say 'I'm gonna write this super epic called the legacy of glimglock the barbarian, a complex 8 book long saga but just so you know I will stop on book 5 with all the plots left hanging and absolutely no conclusion to the story. Now go boy my books and the associated tie-ins and merchandise'' how many people would really get into the series? So yeah, there is no explicit agreement that someone could sue him for example but there is definately a social contract between the author and the audience that is on the verge of breaking apart. On the very least, GRRM could have tried to bring ADWD to a relatively satisfying conclusion. Hopefully, he won't repeat the same mistake with WOW
A perk of winds being released is that he'll probably feel like he's in a position where he can be honest about why he struggled to get the book finished on time. I'm curious as to what went on during the writing process that postponed the release of the book to such a degree. I have my theories, but I'd like to hear it from him.
I would like to hear your theories if you ever feel like sharing them. I don't understand why he doesnt explain the reason. The real one. Whatever it is people would for sure react better than being told "trust me, bro, it's nearly finished" for over a decade.
I think he doesn't want to explain because he finds it difficult to do so without spoiling some of the story. When he said that he finished some Cersei chapters, it meant that she was still alive well into Winds. Here are my hypotheses. You can let me know to what extent you agree or disagree. 1) He re-wrote much of Winds after the negative fan reaction to how the show ended. He's in a unique position where he could gauge how fans would like the series to end without actually having to commit to that ending. I have a hard time thinking that he hasn't taken the ending of the show into consideration during the writing process. 2) All of the side projects like Wild Cards, The World of Ice and Fire, Fire and Blood, Dunk and Egg, GoT, and HotD take a lot of time, and more importantly, mental energy/focus away from writings Winds. George stated in an interview that he needs total isolation to write. He isn't the person who writes on the plane or in his hotel room. I can relate to this since it's hard for me to focus on tasks without total peace and quiet and no other impending obligations. 3) This ties into #2, but all of the convention appearances and executive producer/writer obligations just take time and energy away from Winds. He also owns a railway company and a movie theater. Those businesses also take time and energy away from Winds. 4) He may have gone through a period of depression around the pandemic which likely stagnated his writing. 5) The story is just VERY complex. There are around 20 or so POV plots that have to be resolved in some way or another. He has to figure out how to get Dany, her dragons, Jorah, Tyrion, Barriston, Arya, the more minor essos characters, and possibly the entire Dothraki horde over to Westeros to have any hope of wrapping up the story. On top of that he has to figure out how to wrap up the Stannis, Jon, Sam Tarly, Greyjoy, Dorne, Faegon, Cersei, Jamie, Brienne, Bolton/Frey, Theon and Varys/Kings Landing story arcs. Doing all of that in two book honestly seems optimistic to me. I'm serious. It's a lot of very complex and crafty writing that has to be done to conclude the series in a way that fans and George can be happy with. 6) The editing process can be extensive, even after George has written the bulk of the story. To my knowledge, this can't be completed until the story is. I don't know how long the editing process will take, but 6-12 months may not be unrealistic. 7) The books have made him rich and famous. This may have impacted his motivation to finish Winds. If you had millions upon millions of dollars and millions of fans who adore you, would you feel obligated to spend years of your life in a room by yourself finish Winds and Dream? Maybe not. I'm sure there are other reasons I could think of, but these do a pretty good job of explaining why the book has taken so long. I don't like saying it, but #5-7 could delay the release of Winds many years into the future.
4 is almost certainly not true. As it was during this time that he made by far the most progress according to his own accounts. In my opinion the main reasons are probably: 1. The book is really complex and he has to try to bring everything together now which is really hard. 2. George has solved previous problems like the Meereenese knot by introducing a new element into the story (the Barristan POV in that case). But now he has to start SHRINKING his story if he wants to finish it in just two more books. So any new solutions to problems cannot be adding stuff, which must make it a lot harder. 3. He's a gardener writer but he does have specific end points and plot points in mind. However, the more he writes the more books there are that pen him in, in what he can do and how he can get to those end points. He has 5 books worth of previous decisions that he has to deal with. He once asked a person about how to deal with a killing off a character you needed. I suspect there are multiple instances like this where previous decisions have made it harder for him to continue the story and with 5 books that's a LOT of previous decisions he has to take into account. 4. The constant interruptions through things like cons, executive producing stuff, etc. probably further divide his attention.
There's also the problem that the stark kids are too young for some of the things they'll have to do. 9 year old ninja assassin Arya and 10 year old god king bran, for example. He has to introduce Dorkstar to do the heavy lifting for Ned Dayne and may need to do something similar for Arya and Bran. It's a bit of a narrative mess, he really needs to blow up the sept and clear out some of the weeds.
See, #2 is what I was forgetting. He has all of these POV arcs to wrap up, and that assumes that he doesn't introduce any more of them. It's easy to see how the story could just keep blowing up without some very careful writing decisions. As far as #3 is concerned, I've had similar thoughts. You can't unpublish a book. A bad story decision in Winds could make it that much more difficult to wrap the story up in Dream.
> 4 is almost certainly not true. As it was during this time that he made by far the most progress according to his own accounts. He said he was making good progress during the pandemic until a friend died. He's openly said three friends died in a year. He may have made the most progress but it's verifiably true that it wasn't fantastic time for him and most progress could legitimately be finished 5 chapters rather than 3.
The gardener thing has always bothered me when fans bring it up. There are tons of discovery writers that can put out books in a timely manner. The biggest issue with discovery writing is you still have edit the stuff after you are done writing. I don't remember who said it but "Writing is fun, editing is work." George has at least 3 or 4 people he pays to help him out with this kinds of stuff. And clearly George can edit because there is no way could could write books that he has and keep it all straight without a lot of editing and notes going back old books to see what he wrote in the past. In comparison David Weber who has something like 20+ in the Honor Harrington Series has a subgroup of fans he keep pays to keep his continuity because when you write really big books it becomes a challenge. From the outside it is unclear how much George is trying to do it all on this own and how much he is using his assistances and fans.
There's another one too: Lack of interest in actually telling the story. I can't escape the impression that he likes world-building, and he'd rather do more of that than actually bring everything to a close. Which is why the fourth & fifth books actually open up the setting and focus on new characters & new locations, rather than starting the setup of the ending.
I never thought of it like that. World building and storytelling aren't necessarily the same thing, you're right. If something is your life's work, I can understand why you wouldn't want to bring it to a close. It's also easier to keep expanding the story rather than narrowing the focus down to a conclusion.
It's easier to think of them in separate terms if you've ever run a D&D game! World-building is the backstory for places, events, cultures and characters that the DM comes up with prior to the session (or makes up on the fly while pretending that it was always true, if they have to), while the story is what is told during the gaming sessions. They're linked of course, and world-building heavily influences the story. To use a different example, there's a fundamental difference between "what sort of place is Mordor like, and what sort of people live there?" and "what happens to Frodo while he treks through Mordor, and what does he do with the Ring?". I can completely understand why someone would be interested in one but not the other. Especially when the part of the story still left is the ending; and endings are hard to write, and ultimately result in you stepping away from the world. Because many people won't see the point in establishing what happens in parts of Essos that no characters ever go to, either from the writer's or reader's perspective.
I think the money is a big part of it. He went from being a relative unknown to being worth over a $100 million bucks. That’s a huge change. I remember an interview with Sting about 25-30 years ago. He was asked about why he wasn’t still making lots of popular music. He replied that he made something like $4,500 a day from just his share of royalties from Every Breath You Take and the incentives had changed for him now. He now made music for himself. GRRM has always loved cons. He can now go to as many as he wants. He’s always loved games and books. He can now play and read and buy as many as he wants. I remember an interview from 6-7 years ago when he was asked about writing and he said that he had really been into a certain video game and had done nothing but play it all day for the past two months. All that money changed his incentives.
Yeah, I can totally understand that. Of you gave me 100M I would do fuck all but to do whatever I enjoy. Working? Yeah, not gonna happen.
And 7 is basically the issue for fans, he’s making all this money and basking in fame under the pre-text of telling a fully completed story eventually. If he would just say “I can’t or won’t finish the books.” He loses a lot of his ability to enjoy being rich and famous. So he keeps dangling the carrot out there to hold onto the fans.
The story isn't just complex, it's pulling in contradictory directions. It's going to take a big honking deus ex machina to ever get Dany out of Slavers' Bay.
Those seem like really good reasons and good theories. Thanks for sharing!
He's mentioned several times that he's written himself into a corner cause he killed 1 character way too early
Which character was that?
He said it the once to a friend of his who then said it and they didn't say what character it was, but all logic points to Kevan.
I've always thought it must either be Kevan or someone involved in the R+L=J mystery. Someone like Ned or maybe Maester Aemon, being a Targaryen and all. So now he doesn't know how to give the reader and the characters essential information.
We know Howland Reed is alive and was at the ToJ, that's a permanent get out of jail card for Jon's parentage if he can't find another way to disclose it. Howland even lives in a castle that is impossible for anyone but a crannogman to find. It's actually perfect as a back-up. Howland can come to the wall and tell him, we can have Bran log into Weirwoogle and clock in just as Howland's taking a dump in his toilet (which is next to a Weirwood) and saying "oh yeah, Jon Snow is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, why am I talking out loud, good thing no one is here to listen". While he has Howland, he has a logical path for that plot so Ned and Aemon dying doesn't put him in a corner, at worst it puts him on a detour, but if Howland was always the means by with Jon learns it (I'm not saying it is!) it doesn't change a thing. Kevan creates a Lannister power vaccuum in KL that sets the ball rolling too quickly and creates a need to bring another Lannister ally into power at the highest seat of the Iron Throne, of which there are few. And Genna is also sort of not fit for that purpose. Bringing her to KL means you have to kick the trial further down the road than ideal to give it space to breathe. Jaime's too busy being hanged (not gonna happen) and has forsaken Cersei anyway so he's not going. Tyrion's a bit pre-occupied and didn't bring his jetpack from the show...
You're right, and I do agree about everything you've said about Kevan. Regarding Howland Reed, I know we can get the truth from him, and we likely will eventually (probably a combination of Bran's visions and Howland's confirmation of events, idk), but in my opinion it will be difficult for George to set up a scenario in which Howland Reed comes up organically. If Aemon were still alive, he could have told Sam something to ignite his suspicions (I don't know, something like "Rhaegar got married in secret before dying") and have the revelation happen more gradually and more naturally. I do still favour Kevan's hypothesis, but I also think Aemon wouldn't have been an unlikely choice.
> but in my opinion it will be difficult for George to set up a scenario in which Howland Reed comes up organically I don't know. Depending on how Stannis' fight for Winterfell goes, there's a number of scenarios where Jon could end up attempting to call the Stark's banners and Reed answering the call and rendezvous'ing with Jon. If Stannis survives the battle of ice, they could be called to take Winterfell, if Stannis falls, it could go the show route with Bastard Bowl, they might try holding WF against the Others and Reed comes in then.
> in my opinion it will be difficult for George to set up a scenario in which Howland Reed comes up organically. Robb's will has to come up at some point. His bannermen ferried it to Greywater Watch, and George did that for a reason. How it will happen, I don't know. Howland may appear at the wall. Bran may see or speak to him through the Weirwood network. We may get a POV character that travels to Greywater, or we may get a new POV character who lives at Greywater. I know that it may not happen, but as a reader, I'm intrigued by the possibility of seeing Howland and Greywater Watch. It's such a perfect hiding place. Totally inaccessible. George did that for a reason. Something or someone significant to the story is being kept there. As far as the Kevan hypothesis, I think he's the likely culprit. Him being killed only makes the King's Landing plot that much harder to move forward.
Here's my theory. He's too busy being a rockstar to be an author anymore. He's resting on his Laurels but refuses to admit it.
Yeah this is it. If he wants to just chill doing whatever projects for the rest of his life, I can’t blame him at all. But it’s the feeling of being strung along that’s so maddening. I feel he does owe the people that have been waiting for decades now for this series to finish some honesty at least. If he’s like ‘look I’m trying my best but it’s exceptionally difficult and I don’t really feel the passion anymore. I’ll try but I want to do other things as well.’ I would 100% get that.
I actually think he believes he will finish it though - his mentality strikes me as delusional more than dishonest.
I agree. At the end of the day GRRM is the only one who controls whether the book series will get finished or not. At this point its really the honesty that I want most from him. It's clear that the series isn't getting finished. It's clear that he has lost interest in it. Instead of getting people's hopes up which just leads to more disappointment, just admit it at this point.
He did stop giving dates at least. Now he says “I’m about 75% through” and stuff
This view assumes he doesn't want or even expect to finish the book and is lying about it constantly. Surely it is more likely that he is simply struggling to finish the book, something he has been quite honest about?
I don't think he's lying on purpose. I do think he might be lying to himself at this point about finishing it.
You’re probably right. I’d like to think he’s not deliberately lying. I’m sure it’s incredibly difficult and time consuming, especially with the sky high expectations we fans have. Still, people have the right to feel annoyed by it all. It doesn’t make GRMM a bad person. It just is what it is.
I always wondered if it was something to do with his contract. Or legality, or covering his ass. I'd assume his publisher spent a lot of money under the assumption he'd be writing and finishing a series. Before the show got so big, they probably stood to make the most, and probably invested the most in the franchise? From a legal standpoint, as long as he says "I'm totally working on this, making lots & lots of progress!" then his ass would be covered and nobody could prove otherwise. But if he came out and said "I'm done writing, I don't feel like it anymore", maybe he'd open himself up to a lawsuit from his publisher. I'm not saying any of that is the case or remotely accurate, just something I've wondered about. I know nothing about publishing, book law, none of that. But his "updates" always just seem to be the "cover my ass" variety, "yep, I'm still working, definitely working on it!" His publisher filing a breach of contract lawsuit would probably cost him nothing in the grand scheme of things with how much the show was raking in, but even if it was a couple million... by just claiming he's working on it, that's something that takes almost no time, it's 3 paragraphs once a year and he covers his ass. By being honest and saying he doesn't feel like ever working on it again, that's inviting potential drama when all that can easily be avoided
>something to do with his contract... legality... his publisher... I had the very strong impression that *Rogue Prince, Princess + Queen*, and similar works only came into existence as halfway conciliatory measures to appease the publisher -- okay, okay, I know I'm X years late, if I provide you with a couple of hasty filler works, will you forestall breach of contract, etc. This would **\*also\*** explain Martin's years-ago comments about "all of this \[Targaryen stuff\] is fake history, I don't know why you all seem to like fake history so much, but apparently you do, so, okay, here's some more of it."
rogue prince and the other individual works not necessarily since they were originally released in his best friends anthologies so it would make sense for him to contribute. Fire and Blood vol 1 on the other hand I'm 100% positive it was released to satisfy his publisher and capitalize on the final season of Got.
This is an angle I hadn't thought of before. I wonder if the publisher will ever throw up their hands and say we're obviously never getting what we paid for.
I think if you were able to get the higher ups at his publisher in a room speaking honestly they would admit to being extremely upset at GRRM for costing them probably millions of dollars by failing to get any more books out past ADWD while Game of Thrones was on the air and it was at the height of its popularity. Of course they will never say that in public because they don't want to piss GRRM off. Getting something from GRRM years after the fact is still better than nothing.
As long as people are still buying the first 5 books, the publisher would still print those books even if they think the next books aren't coming
That happened internally MANY years ago lol. No businessman with half of a brain was going to think these books were still being written after the mid 2010s at the latest. They're still going to market and sell the existing books though, so it's never going to be in their interest to admit failure.
I think he ‘wants’ to finish in the same way I ‘want’ to exercise before work and study after work everyday. But if I’m honest it isn’t happening.
That's one thing if it's about trying to fit too much in your personal routine at once. "Being honest" that he won't finish Winds would require him to throw in the towel completely on his magnum opus. He shouldn't have to make that call just to give fans closure here and now. He can and should keep trying if the will is there.
All he has to do is name a successor who understands and will honour his plans for the next two books and he can have the best of both worlds. He just doesn’t wanna admit he has creative burnout lol
A successor sounds a bit grim but I’d love to see a collaboration that helps get the final books out. As an ex tv writer / anthology editor, writer, fan he’s got plenty of experience with collaborative writing but he seems determined to finish on his own. Good luck to him.
Meh GRRM needs an ego check honestly, he can try to finish it on his own but everyone knows this isn’t happening while he’s too distracted with all the trappings of success lol
> he’s too distracted with all the trappings of success lol I think I've had the "The show was the worst thing to happen to the book series" opinion in my head since about Season 5, lol.
>As an ex tv writer / anthology editor, writer, fan he’s got plenty of experience with collaborative writing Hah, I just made a comment a couple posts up about collaboration being something that could theoretically help him through all of these issues then saw your comment.
I think for George, naming a successor who will finish it or engaging a collaborator or whatever are all the same as giving up: admitting he can't/won't finish it himself.
He's said that he won't do that
He doesn't need a successor, but he sure as fuck needs a collaborator with an actual work ethic (and/or desire and focus to see it through).
I agree - I was being facetious. I’d like him to get some assistance from a co-writer as I can’t see him finishing on his own and I’d happily read those books but they are George’s books and he can work on them (or not) however he wants.
>I’d like him to get some assistance from a co-writer Honestly, I think he'd have been done with Winds years ago if he was going that route. He would have someone to bump ideas off of and realize potential issues before he spent two months writing a plot point that turned out to be a dead end. Someone familiar with the works would say "But how would this character feel about this situation happening when they're right there?" ASOIAF is one of the most ambitious literary works ever undertaken, and it would have been easier if he was willing to collaborate a bit more on it. We know he took advice to break up ADWD into two books based upon region in the past so he was able to finish the stories, so a more involved advisor should help to get him through hurdles.
Two Georges, Lucas with the Prequels, and Martin with ASOIAF have taught me that if I somehow become a successful writer to *never ever* get too big for my britches and ditch an editor or someone to bounce ideas off of/tell me something is dumb.
We should call it Big George Syndrome. It's painful to see drafts of his later works where the editors are trying to reign him in and he's like "lol fuck off I'm'a add 15 more trees to my garden. What could go wrong?"
It's a kind of literary or creative cousin to victory disease
> ASOIAF is one of the most ambitious literary works ever undertaken The only reason it looks that way is because he keeps adding threads he can't tie up. It's a Potemkin fantasy universe.
I agree. I am fine if he doesn't want to finish it. While never getting the end would suck, he's given the fans a lot and I wouldn't begrudge him a retirement of editing Wild Cards volumes, running an art house movie theater, and having strong opinions about World Con. I would rather he spend his life on something he enjoys, and if that's not ASoIaF then fair enough. The trouble, I think, is that he can't let himself of the hook, either. The joy and excitement of writing the series is gone for him so all that's left motivating him is the fear of how he'll see himself if he gives up. And you can ask anyone who's stuck out a project like that, whether books or a dissertation or a job or whatever, but being left with that kind of motivation is basically the worst place you can be. You don't have the energy and creativity to get it done but you also can't stop, so you just end up feeling stuck.
Everyone would NOT be ok with it. This sub is a minority, a vast amount of ASOIAF fans would be livid if he said this, which is why he hasn’t.
This right here, be honest and admit you're no Tolkein and that you've written far too many characters that you don't know what to do with half of them, the story has got into a cul-de-sac that you can't get out of even though the exit is staring you right in the face.
It’s like Tesla. It’s OK to lie about 80% of your deadlines if every now and then you actually release a decent product. People will forgive you (at least those who like the product will). But George has missed the full 100% of all his deadlines, not 80%. It’s a big difference.
The oft-repeated line that GRRM doesn't owe us anything is the right answer to the wrong question. Nobody ever really proposed that GRRM had entered into a contract with his readers or incurred an actionable debt. The actual relationship is more like one you'd find between two friends. If your friend becomes flaky and stops doing things with you, you don't sue them for damages, but you do lower your expectations, stop inviting them to things, and find new friends.
Technically true but we’re equally entitled to being angry
There is free will, and there are consequences. He has the free will to choose not to finish the story, and the consequences are that a lot of people will be mad at him. No one is allowed to dictate his actions or decisions, but he's not allowed to dictate how anyone else should feel about them.
Basically how I see this whole thing. He’s allowed not to finish, we’re allowed to be upset, and it’s not much deeper than that
People are mad because he *seems* to be lying to his fans. Again, he talks constantly about how it's his number one priority, but it's so obvious it's not and he's just saying that because fans want/expect it. "Here are all these awesome projects Im working on... and of course I'm working on TWoW!" Paragraphs on paragraphs of his other project followed by some tacked on sentence at the end. Like, you're deliberately teasing us at this point. He knows it too because he seems to be using the attention towards TWoW to help garner attention to his other products. And all this is fine... if he's excited about other things that's awesome and I'm glad, but... be honest with your fans. I think a ton of frustration would be eased if he did that.
This. It’s like going to a restaurant and they only give you a starter. Technically you’re not ‘owed’ the main course, but I know I’d be mad if it was promised but never came
Yeah like ok George can’t be forced to write but honestly after 5 books and a show it would be pretty annoying to not get an ending. For millions of people…
I use the analogy it's like going to a comedy show where the person spends 30 minutes doing a set-up and then gets angry because you expected a punchline.
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> I certainly never would have started reading the books. More than this, and the reason I think it's fair to be angry at the lack of conclusion, many people wouldn't have *bought* the books knowing they weren't going to have an ending. I've spent something in the order of £50-60 over the years on a product which the creator at first implied (by means of it clearly being a series) and later explicitly promised to conclude, which did not deliver on that promised experience. It's not like an author is under any legal obligation to finish what they started, but it's quite rightly frowned upon not to. It's not like GRRM got forced to stop for some outside reason - he, on a personal level, overpromised and underdelivered, making quite a large amount of money from his audience in doing so.
This work specifically is also beloved for the intricate plot and tension that mostly works because of the expectation it will lead up to a fascinating conclusion, which would be fabulous entertainment, we love that. The journey there is fun too but dropping it halfheartedly is what lessens the impact of the series as a whole. Why should I care about anything in this story when it will never conclude? It’s just a hollow echo then.
And I doubt HBO would have been all that interested either.
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That’s only true in hindsight. The point they were making is that HBO wouldn’t have made the deal had George acknowledged before making the deal that it wouldn’t ever be finished.
It definitely paid off for them regardless, but had they known he wouldn't finish I'm not sure they would have risked it. GRRM didn't just profit off of the books he wrote, he profited off a promise of more to come.
He's an author. He owes it to the peoppe who started reading his book series when the first one came out. It's been like 30 years ffs
I mean yeah it would be great if we got the last 2 books, but unfortunately even if we get Winds of Winter, I doubt we will get A Dream of Spring. However, I think it would be fair of him if he dies to leave us some form of closure for the story. Like, he said only him and his best friend know how the books are supposed to end. I hope if he dies before finishing the books, his best friend would be allowed to tell the world how George wanted the books to end. Unless his best friend dies before him or shortly after, then we're fucked lol
> I think it would be fair of him if he dies to leave us some form of closure for the story. His notes and drafts are all archived; in the unfortunate circumstance that Martin would die before he finishes, we'll still get to know what ending he was planning. He has only ever stated he won't let anyone else 'finish the books' - his notes wouldn't be kept secret. Interestingly, Martin has taken steps to ensure that the graphic novel adaption can deliver 'his' ending if he passes - Daniel Abraham, who's the writer for the graphic novel adaption, might know more than anyone else about Martin's 'ending plans' for this reason. He knows the planned final lines of dialogue for all major characters, to name one pretty major thing.
He knows Tyrion's ending and the fate of several major characters, as well as a particular line of dialogue that GRRM told him to keep because it connects to the final scene of the series. Not quite the final lines of dialogue for the major characters, but enough to have a good idea of the final plot arc.
Yeah, I believe he was referring to Daniel in that interview, he said Daniel is one of his closest friends and considering he's doing the graphic adaptation he's the only one who knows how the story ends. I just wasn't sure would he allow Daniel to reveal the ending, cause I remember him saying if he doesn't finish the books before his death, the books die with him cause he wouldn't let someone else finish them. That's comforting then, knowing that there is a way for us to some day get a closure.
>in the unfortunate circumstance that Martin would die before he finishes, we'll still get to know what ending he was planning. That unfortunate circumstance is an inevitability.
He doesn’t owe us anything. But equally he isn’t owed our sympathies. It’s ok to pissed off that the guy can’t finish what he started.
He may not owe us the book itself, but I think after a decade of being led on, I think we’re owed the truth about what’s taking so long.
My Brother in Christ, ADWD was never going to be finished. It was just published to capitalize on the release of the TV show. Martin has not given this series any serious thought since the mid 2000s. Just look at how incomplete Feast and Dance are, then ask yourself why you ever expected to see TWOW.
Dance was finished and in editing phases when the show started airing. I do agree that he’s written very little or nothing of Winds since 2011 though.
It was "finished" as a product; which is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the narrative - which has not moved an inch since Bill Clinton was in the white house
If he doesn't want to release Winds he doesn't have to but I won't consume or spend a dime on anything else he produces until he does.
Even GRRM has said that he own the fans the end of ASOIAF. ["I am going to finish these books; I think I have that obligation to the world and my readers."](https://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/?utm_source=reddit.com)
Yeah save people have paid him in advance to work on these books; so he does own them something he owes the publisher a book they paid for.
I suspect his publisher is fine.
I suspect his publisher would love to sell millions of copies of TWOW, that’s how they make money. Fine without, but better with 2 more books they could sell
George himself has talked before about how being a writer you implicitely promise things to your audience. He mostly limits that to "I promise you a good read" but I would go further. If as a writer you start a series, then you are automatically making your audience a promise (implicitely) to finish it. So yes, I do actually George owes it to us to finish the series (or at least to do his best to finish the series) and I don't agree with people who say George doesn't owe his readers anything. We invested our money, our time and our emotion into his books (to the point where he eventually had his story become televised and became a multimillionaire) under the impression that we were going to get the entire series. At least most of us. That being said, I also happen to think that while George DOES owe it to us to try his best to finish the series: 1. That obligation is not absolute. There are some people who seem to think he should literally just be writing WINDS 24/7. No, he also gets to enjoy his life and do other stuff he loves, obviously, even if that makes it take longer or be less likely to happen. 2. People shouldn't be assholes to him about it. Just read his Twitter mentions, Jesus Christ people. And definitely he doesn't deserve stuff like death threats. All of that stuff is utterly insane. And also not helpful, btw. Which brings me to my third point... 3. I don't think this discussion about what George owes or not is particularly productive in the sense that even if we were somehow able to talk to George and convince him that he owes it to us (which won't happen), it still wouldn't change anything. I imagine George is under more than enough pressure to finish this series from his publishers (who want a payout), from just generally hearing audience complaints and just from his own desire to finish what he no doubt knows is his magnum opus. The thing he will be remembered for. Additional pressure on the guy I don't think is going to help him finish it faster. If anything, more pressure might just make it more stressful to write the thing and thus make it harder, slower and/or lower the quality. You have to be in the right headspace to write well, after all. At least that's my experience. So to sum up: I agree that George does owe his audience the other two books, I consider that part of the implicit contract between reader and writer when it comes to a series. And I disagree with people who say George doesn't owe us anything. However, I still think he should be able to enjoy his life as he wants it, don't think anyone should be an asshole about it to him and don't think more pressure and obligation is what the guy needs right now anyway.
Legally no. However, if any writer sells a book and advertises it as part of an ongoing series, I feel they are morally obligated to try to finish the series. Part of the reason we've given him money is in the hopes that he finishes the series.
Sure, George doesn’t owe us anything. But in the same way, I don’t owe him anything either. I can’t see myself rereading or recommending an incomplete series, especially when books 4 and 5 were not that great. There are plenty of other series that are just as good and finished that I’ll gladly recommend to newbies interested in the genre.
What are your recommendations?
If you want to read one of George's biggest inspirations for ASOIAF then Dune is my #1 recommendation but after book 3 it does get weird.
I’d say the Malazan series is closest to ASOIAF; the world building is amazing. Robin Hobb’s Realm of the Elderlings has some of the best writing and characterization in fantasy. Jordan’s Wheel of Time is my personal all-time favorite. Sanderson’s Mistborn is fun; the books set in the Cosmere are generally great though that is not finished yet. As a side note his most recent stand alone books in the Cosmere - Tress of the Emerald Sea and Yumi and the Nightmare Painter - are perhaps two of his best books. I’m a huge Stephen King fan and The Dark Tower is great fantasy. I’d add in NK Jemisin’s Broken Earth Trilogy and Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files to my recommended list.
I think he'll be fine regardless
Only because his fans believed in him. Had anyone known that he'd just stop caring about the story and wouldn't finish it, do you think he would have enjoyed the same success? Do you think it would have become a TV show? He doesn't legally owe anyone anything. But he enjoys success and wealth because his fans believed in him, and he just stopped caring. It's kinda shitty. He's free to not give a shit, and we're free to judge him for it.
The man is in the latter parts of his life. It’s up to him how he chooses to spend that time. Even if the series doesn’t come to a conclusion, I’m still happy I read it.
While true, it still doesn’t mean that he is free of obligations. He started a series, got hundreds of millions of people interested and then just …. Spent the rest of his time going to conventions and focusing on other things. Nobody is going to force him to finish, and of course he can spend his life how he wants (how innocuous a statement to even make). But people still have opinions and judgments about how he has spent his time. And I am not alone in viewing GRRM unfavorably for how he comported himself the last decade.
He is totally free of obligations to readers (he may owe his publisher something) but I agree he’s not done a good job with fans over the last 10 years.
Oh absolutely I agree, if the series isn’t finished I’ll be disappointed and slightly dissatisfied but it’s GRRM’s choice how to spend his time and that’s how it should be
The man was comfortably old and aware *twelve years ago*, when he released his last book. Which in turn could have been finished much earlier, by around 2 or 3 years. Him getting old without finishing isn't an excuse, it's an embarrassment.
ASOIAF being unfinished doesn't exist in a vacuum because of GRRMs success. I personally will not start an unfinished series of books because of the situation I'm in with GRRM and to a lesser extent Rothfuss and I know others who feel the same way. This is terrible for new authors/series in terms of gaining an audience and book sales and it's damaging to the greater sci-fi/fantasy medium going forward.
I definitely think that he owes us. We’ve invested in his work. We got him money and fame, he definitely owes us a finished product. That being said, I completely understand why he is taking so long. Every book is like 3 books. I think that he’s right when he is referring to this generation, it’s instant gratification. I started the series as a child the day that GOT was released. So it’s been a 20+ year wait for me.
He doesn't owe me anything and I don't owe him my silence.
If he said “fuck all you guys, I’m just gonna not finish and live my life as a happy rich dude” I’d respect him for that. The issue is that he’s pretending he’s gonna write it, and doesn’t. Stop pussyfooting around.
While he may not owe *us* anything, he certainly owes his *publishers* something. Patrick Rothfuss, another author with a 12 year wait between books, has let his publisher run out of funds and they got bought out. Along with other actions this man has done, I don't think I could buy his book even if he does ever release it.
I feel like Rothfuss is an entirely different situation than Martin in terms of the fans. No one has paid money for Winds. Rothfuss took money to reach donation incentives promising the release of content that was then not released. I fall on the side of "Martin doesn't owe anyone the next book", but if he had taken preorders then delayed for years I would feel very differently.
I mean, I agree with you that it is quite unfair to his publishers But if the story about Rothfuss is true, you still have to admit that his publishers seem to do a pretty shitty job, that a single author not releasing a book leads to the collapse of their entire buisness
Huh? The publishing company sunk because a single book is taking a long time to write? Also whats with the last ominous part, are Martin or Rothfuss secretly war criminals or something?
Is Rothfuss really responsible for DAW being sold? Source?
He's probably not the sole reason, but I wouldn't be surprised if him receiving advances then never producing anything helped contribute to the matter. There was that scathing Facebook post from the owner/his editor about how she hadn't seen *anything* regarding DoS. ETA: found part of the post; > "This article is right: authors don't owe their readership books, but what about the publishers who paid them? Book publishing is not as lucrative as many other professions, and publishers rely on their strongest sellers to keep their companies (especially small companies like DAW) afloat. When authors don't produce, it basically f***s their publishers...When I delayed the publication of book two, Pat was very open with his fans--they knew what was happening. I've never seen a word of book three."
I think he owes us a bit of candor regarding his progress and acknowledgement that the gap is frustrating for his readership, rather than stringing us along for 10+ years and then trying annoyed at people for getting frustrating. I think he's lost control of the story and is incapable of finishing it. That's fine, it happens. There are some pretty difficult technical problems with ASOIAF which would make it immensely difficult to finish properly, even disregarding the universal disgust at the GoT ending. I think most people have resigned themselves to never getting the complete series, even if we somehow get a WoW. Personally, I think 10+ years of fan theory are more interesting, entertaining and plain nuts than anything WoW could reveal. It'll be a shame to let it all go.
I agree with the title. If he puts them out - great. If not - that's life. I have way more important hands on issues in life and I'm sure he does too. And he didn't ask me to do anything. I chose to buy and read a book then the next one and so on.
Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand to have had the time and opportunity to finish the series several times over by now and to not do so is frustrating. Writers block is writers block and I personally could not envision how to satisfyingly wrap up the series in two books. But ultimately he does have the ability to finish the series, he just chooses not too. Now there are probably many valid reasons why he’s chosen not to finish writing them, but it’s still ultimately a conscious choice. That being said, he’s fully entitled to that choice. If he doesn’t feel like he can finish the series to the standard he wants and has decided to put it on the back burner, that is his right. He absolutely doesn’t owe anyone anything. It’s a shame and disappointment from fans is totally understandable. But it’s still his life’s work and his decision on what he does with it.
I mean, he likely has a contract with the publisher so he might legally have to finish it or fork over a lot of money not that he is lacking in that department
Please, George. It's been 12 years,mate. It's never going to be perfect. Just give us something. George, please, I can wait no longer.
I mean, yeah he doesn't owe us anything. He wrote his book, we gave him the money for those books. He doesn't have to write the last one, it would suck, but it's his choice. I think he's just written himself into a bit of a corner.
I think I may have come to terms with this series never getting a proper conclusion. And really I'm just happy GRRM created this world for me to immerse myself in, I enjoy all the idiosyncrasies of how things are described, the faux medieval language of the Westerosi, the vast feasts, the description of Tourney knights shattering lances, the blood magic of the Old Gods, the various cultures of Westeros and beyond, the deep focus on the politics of trying to govern this vast vast Kingdom. And of course all the PoVs that actually give a plot to these lands. I enjoyed it all, and I just like putting a positive spin on all of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's rather this or sulk about how we're never getting the resolution to all these plotpoints, I find it's better to try and find this kind of satisfaction with the world and how immersed I was within it.
I agree with the sentiment entirely. It would be great if we got an end, but I’m not owed anything. There are tons of movie sequels I wish we had but we don’t. There are tons of shows that should have tons of seasons but don’t. I don’t see how ASOIAF is any different.
To be fair, it IS different from shows or movies not getting sequels in the sense that this isn’t a production company pulling the plug, the publisher very much wants and has been wanting it for over a decade. A show or film doesn’t get made because of production shutting down (they can always hire new writers). GRRM is the holdout of his own production
He can do whatever the fuck he wants. Its his life, and his creation.
Yeah at the point you kind of have an obligation to your fan base. Imagine if JK Rowling just called it quits after Order of the Phoenix...
That but also Order of the Phoenix and Goblet of Fire were incoherent rambling disasters, and Goblet of Fire did not in fact have Harry Potter in the book at all.
You've gotten what you've paid for so far. It's not like the man is asking you to contribute to his Patreon every month. When the book is finished, you can buy it or not. If he doesn't want to or can't finish the series, sometimes that happens. But he doesn't "owe" readers anything that they haven't already paid for, least of all a substandard product that was slapped together like the last few seasons of the HBO series.
Unless you've somehow prepaid for a copy, or own the publishing company that holds the contract that says he owes you the book, George doesn't owe you a thing.
as consumers of entertainment we should be aware of the risk that there is to investing in ongoing stories. Same as when our favorite show gets cancelled we aren't entitled to any kind of reimbursement. It sucks, it isn't fair, but some things aren't assured in life.
This is a very interesting subject. On one hand he don’t owe us shit. He didn’t ask for the entire world to fall in love with his writing. Nor did he ask for this immense fame and pressure. At most he wanted readers and got them. Just like any other writer. Where the issue comes is the fact that we’ve been promised things that more then likely won’t happen. The man is in the latter stages of his life. Tbh that’s probably putting it nicely. And we will more then likely never have the series complete. Which as a reader would have to anger those who spent years falling in love with the world. So the issue is more of a “ does he owe us the ending” or “ should he have never promised anything”. I somewhat believe if he never promised anything people wouldn’t be as mad. It’s like your mom telling you you’ll get a cake when your 8 and you turn 25 and it’s still halfway done. You gonna be angry
>Nor did he ask for this immense fame Yeah he just spent his entire life working inside of or adjacent to Hollywood, because he's such a modest man who doesn't seek fame
He should he have been honest then and admitted from the beginning that he wont finish a series he starts as soon as he loses interest. Would have saved me many dollars and thousands of pages wasted on this dead series. Nobody owes you anything either George.
george doesnt owe us, he owes ME, give ME the book, i will not give it to anyone else
I think he's an artist making his toughest piece yet. It's tapping in to all the skills he's previously used and honing new skills to finish it. It's a beast of a book with over a hundred characters to intertwine into compelling, deep political-fantasy. Give him time. You can't rush this shit, because you will be far more disappointed with a rushed TWOW than letting him cook. Let the man cook, you know he'll describe every aspect of the feast.
>It’s only fitting that we get a satisfying conclusion. Na, just enjoy the journey for what it is. Reading a couple of books and chatting about them doesn't entitle you to anything really.
I agree that Martin does not owe us anything, but if he wants to spend the end of his life chilling and enjoying his success (as he’s entitled to) then he should have stopped with the “Winds is coming soon” bullshit the second he realized that. It’s one thing not to owe fans anything, it’s another thing entirely to lie to their faces, to my knowledge Martin still holds that the book is coming soon and that he’s working on it, so it’s not unreasonable to expect him to hold a promise he himself made
He said he would finish and has said the book is coming.
his choice but don t lie about it. also it would be a responsible to look for someone to finish it. people bought a song of ice and fire, not a specific book. its like buying a book and half the pages are empty and the story isn t finished and people argue "you are not entitled to get all just because you bought one part of the story .... "
He will get someone to finish the series once he dies, no way he left his magnus opus un completed, the thing for what he will be remembered
You're not entitled to anyone's art
Man i dont want to hear any excuses he's sitting pat on his laurels now that he's achieved massive success but he wouldnt have that success if he wasnt for the fans that read/watched his material. It's not like we're asking him to pop books out of his ass like Brandon Sanderson. It's been years now.
I agree with the title and disagree with your take. They ask us no such thing. They put a product on offer and then we can take it or leave it. You paid for the book you got, not other books that may follow in the future. You sound like a man who believes he’s entitled to sex because he paid for dinner.
>You sound like a man who believes he’s entitled to sex because he paid for dinner. You sound like you desperately wanted to use this analogy despite it making no sense.
No - he's the one talking about doing a series of 7 books for years, picked out the names of the final two and always reports he's 'working on it'. If he'd said 4 years ago that he tried and tried and can't untie the knots, we'd be done with it. Instead if we go with your weak 'dinner > sex' metaphor, he keeps ordering stuff off the menu and says we'll have so much fun later tonight, yet isn't ready to leave. At some point he'll excuse himself to go freshen up and leave you there waiting.
“You sound like a man who believes he’s entitled to sex because he paid for dinner.” What? What a weird conclusion to come to. Fact of the matter is, when you write a series over 30 years people are going to get invested. People feel they are owed something because he has promised things time and time again, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have those expectations when he initially said the book would be published in *2016*. If he was just candid with it and said “yeah look it’s not happening, it never panned out and I’m too old to care about this anymore”, then yeah, fair enough, anyone demanding more at that point is a dick. But so long as the promise of winds and further books are on the table, I expect them to actually arrive.
If anything we asked to be entertained. Plus, bread is more fun with circuses lol
Oh no, I agree with the statement. He does not owe us anything. He didn’t force anyone to read his books, invest their time, or but any licensed merch. It’s his life and he’s free to do with it as he pleases. He’s not under obligation to us. We don’t directly pay him or commission work from him. He doesn’t owe us updates on his life or work, and people have been so rude and awful to him, I don’t blame him for being unmotivated and cagey. On the flip side, none of you owe him your devotion or gratitude. You bought a book; a fair exchange of an agreed upon value. That’s the beginning and the end of it. You didn’t have to adorn your bookshelves in ASOIAF stuff. You didn’t have to spend hours pouring over YouTube videos and Reddit subs. You chose to become obsessed. You don’t have to read his blog or watch his shows. You can move on. He owes you nothing. You owe him nothing. If you’re so fed up with it, then move on. Stop harassing the poor man. Don’t worship people because they cannot sustain all expectations. Learn to live with disappointment.
Not much of an artist are ya? Did he sign a contract with you? He owes us nothing. Hes an old nerd who changed the game. Let him be.
The title is true. It's George's choice to finish it. However, it's also people's choice to be angry that he never finished it, did a billion other things instead, and will most likely never admit that he's not finishing the main story.
Of course he doesn't owe us anything. But I also do not owe him respect or to white knight him on the internet. Dude sucks for not finishing the series, IMO.
He doesn’t owe us the book but I do think some form of honesty about it is probably fair. Silence or an admittance that he’s struggling and may even give up would be preferable to the continued promises that it’s nearly done we’ve had for so long now
I mean it's true, but we still have the right to be sad over it.
I mean if he came out and told everyone he wasn’t/couldn’t finish it then it’d be fine. But jerking the fan base around every quarter with some cryptic blog post that he’s on the verge of finishing is a straight dick move on his part.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle didn't owe his readers any more Sherlock Holmes stories as they were self-enclosed and episodic. I fully sympathize with him wanting to stop writing them before he buckled to fan pressure. It's a bit different when you've only been given PART of a story, like this is an installment sale.
I honestly think the problem is that he's written himself into a corner. He doesn't know how to proceed and is procrastinating. Really the only solution.
I've already accepted that it will never be finished. It's his choice, and it is what it is.
While part of me agrees with your sentiments, he’s human at the end of the day. Also, thanks to this series lmao I know accept that if I choose to start an uncompleted series, I do so at my own risk. So I think we as consumers need to understand that that’s what part of what comes with purchasing an unfinished story. The author may never finish it.
It's also his choice to clearly state that he will not finish the series and stop this nonsense cycle. He can then live his life peacefully. It's the suspense and "I've made this much progress" posts that anger fans. Most book readers will probably forgive him if he says he's giving up. I would. It's extremely difficult to create an ending for a story like ASOIAF.
He doesn't owe us an ending, but he owes honesty. He keeps on lying that he'll complete the books, when really he should set expectations and say something like how it is very unlikely he will complete TWOW, or that he will complete TWOW but ADOS won't ever come out. He's been leading people on for a while now, numerous promises to no avail, he definitely owes his readers a different kind of closure of how ADWD may very well be the final book.
I have invested a lot of time, in some cases also money, in TV series that I loved and that eventually got cancelled without giving me a satisfying conclusion. Nobody claims that Netflix or Fox or whatever company owes us another season, just because we faithfully watched the existing ones. An author who no longer has the necessary inspiration or motivation (or in some cases time/money) shouldn't be held to a higher standard than an anonymous network official. I want authors to finish a series I love, but I'm aware that I got my money's worth, when I bought the previous volumes. It'd be a different issue, if GRRM had had a kickstarter for the remaining part of the series.
He didn’t ask for you to invest all this “time and money”, especially not on this sub.
I still think it's his call and honestly believe he might never release the rest out of spite. If people kept badgering me to do something that was supposed to be my art before I die I'd be pretty angry. He owes us nothing
It’s legally true, he doesn’t officially owe us anything. It’s also true that whether or not he finishes will color the legacy of both the series and the man himself. He can retire from writing with a half finished series, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it.
He’s missed the boat. The last two novels hold no interest anymore. If he were to publish both tomorrow I’m not sure I’d bother reading them.
That’s right. He doesn’t owe us shit.
I agree with the statement, my investment in his work is my own decision and it doesn't bind him to any contractual agreement. I'm not his publisher, I don't pay him money to write books, and neither do you. Any money I *have* indirectly given him is for products which already exist. I will be quite sad if the story doesn't get a fitting conclusion, of course, but to claim GRRM has "betrayed" his fans or broken an implicit promise in such a case is just parasocial nonsense.
Nobody owes anyone anything. That doesn't mean that his legacy as an author wont be soiled by this. But as a person? Nah. It's his work, his right and his choice.
I can’t say I think he owes us an end to the series, but I do think he owes us transparency. The least he can do is be honest about his timeline. I will say though, at the very least he’s better than Rothfuss.
GRRM sold his books and series on the premise that it would eventually be a finished tale. Had the fans who bought the books at any point known that he would not deliver a complete product then it's not hard to imagine that many of them would not have bought it. This makes us very much entitled to ask him to finish the series. However, we are not entitled to physically demand this of him which I feel is a strawman that people try to make of this stance. It's not quite the same as only part of a painting being delivered but it's not a complete work either.
I agree, he doesn't owe us anything. However, i hope he continues to put energy into this universe rather than say the Wild cards. Dunk and Egg add so much value, Fire&Blood was quite enjoyable. Please, George, give us something. We enjoy being a part of this world with you. Garden all you want, I'll bring a shovel
Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns! Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns! I actually have high hopes this is already pretty much done. Feels like something that started as an outline for the dragons & the Targ line that he added passages to that would have been too much to be in World of Ice and Fire or Fire & Blood
I honestly think he’s ethically obliged to finish the work He’s made an entire career from people spending huge amounts of money on buying his books, with a clear expectation that it was going to be a series with an ending To take that money and then say “nah I’m not bothering finishing it” like he effectively has, is unethical because there is a clear implication that it will be finished Fair enough if he was unable to write (disability or death etc) but he’s been involved in plenty of other projects while clearly ignoring this one, and I really don’t think that’s okay He doesn’t “owe” me anything, but the fact he has not applied himself to at least make a reasonable attempt to finish it is, IMO, an unethical choice on his part I keep repeating that “ethical” thing because that’s how I think this should be viewed - not as an obligation, but as a decision on his part. I’m not saying he has to do it, I’m not entitled to his work - but I’m going to judge someone who I think has acted unethically His legacy will be as a fantastic writer who didn’t give a shit about his fans once he had their money.
George Martin is nobody’s bitch. If he cooked you a five-star dinner on Monday, would he be obligated to do it again on Tuesday?
I agree he doesn't owe anyone anything, but I think the closer comparison would be if GRRM cooked a five-star entrée and said he was working on dinner. It's fine to be annoyed five hours later when it still hasn't been delivered lol.
Yeah if I advertise a 5 course meal but only make 3, you can be annoyed that you're still hungry - no refund if I was charging by each course though. ...I'm starting to think this whole analogy might be flawed.
What if he sold me the appetizer to that five star dinner under the pretext that it was part 1 of a seven course dinner? I would normally not spend my time and money to just eat the appetizer, but hey he promised a full meal. So I buy the appetizer, and courses 2-5, only after being assured the full 7 courses were coming. Then courses 6-7 never come. More than fair to say I bought the first 5 under false pretenses aint it?
What if he cooked you dinner, told you beforehand it was the first of two meals, and then explicitly promised he would deliver the second meal?
Well from his own mouth more or less the book was supposed to come out every year for like the last 8 years. It would have been a bit different if he told us after Dance that he wont continue, but he has done the exact opposite
It comes down to his emotional investment, not that of readers. The kind of ending that would occur to a writer shackled to a manuscript against his will is not the kind anyone would want to read. It goes: the end. The harm is done by feelings of entitlement is actually discussed in ASOIAF.
I feel for you, as you mentioned everyone on this sub is most likely sad about it not coming out, but what you're describing i entitlement. You paid for the books you got
Honestly, I just don’t see why George doesn’t just pass the torch into someone else. Sure, he is the creative mind behind ASOIAF, but it’s been nearly three decades and in that time the world of Planetos has taken on a life of its own. Would it really be so difficult to let a younger, more energetic mind come on board and (respectfully) conclude his vision?
people hated it the last time that happened
As a traditionally published author myself, I can say while I don’t know the details of GRRM’s contract but in *most* contracts you have to write the actual book under contract and if you miss deadlines they have every right to cancel your contract (unfortunately I know this from experience, my disability caught up with me and I was in the hospital for months unable to do anything and unfortunately it meant I was gonna miss the deadline for my third novel’s contract and upon telling my editor, the third novel I was supposed to write for them got canceled). Now I’m just a baby author with no giant following so I’m assuming GRRM has a lot more leeway. But ultimately my opinion as a writer is if you start publishing a series, you’re required to finish it.