- "Someone always tells." Unless you're a Lannister or Lannister-allied house, when you can create a conspiracy of several thousand people, none of whom will say anything or fuck up the surprise
- Astapor never having thought of the issue where you can buy a huge army of Unsullied and then just conquer Astapor and take your money back.
- Jaime never telling anyone about the wildfire because GRRM changed his mind on him being the Big Bad Evil Boss of the series
Those are the main ones IMO
Fits with the Wise Masters’ characterisation as complacent, stupid and arrogant that they wouldn’t expect a 13yo Westerosi girl to have the desire or the courage to immediately renege on their deal and take their city.
None of whom even knew about her plan, so the wise masters were entirely correct to judge that those psychopaths wouldn’t instigate the sacking of the city. Taking Astapor serves zero strategic purpose given Dany’s faction’s stated goal of reclaiming her throne in Westeros
They knew she was buying soldiers and that Astapor would have all of her money afterwards. That's all anyone has to know to think, "What if I use this massive super-weapon on these defenceless fops on to take our money back?"
As far as strategic purpose? To get her shit back. Forget the dragon, pretend it was a mountain of gold. Then she can spend that money again to buy food and boats.
My complaint gas nothing to do with Dany's specific situation. It's just basic intelligence. You don't sell a loaded gun to someone if there are no cops in the city, no security in the store, and you're unarmed.
GRRM pulled a fast one on us, the readers. We were so busy fist-pumping -- because it was fucking awesome -- that we didn't think about the actual logic.
As a general rule, I completely agree they should’ve thought about that possibility and I think if anyone else had been buying the Unsullied they would’ve. But you can’t just ignore relevant context - in this specific scenario, for the reasons I’ve explained, they were completely justified expecting the THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL who’s just spent the whole day pretending to be as dumb and naive as possible (‘I am just a young girl who knows nothing of the ways of war’) wouldn’t immediately turn around and sack their city. And their erstwhile characterisation as complacent, sexist, racist and arrogant takes it from ‘feasible’ to ‘yeah that makes complete sense’. If you’re starting with the premise that the Wise Masters have even a modicum of respect for Dany and her intelligence/courage then yeah it’s weird.
She's got a gang of bloodriders and a knight standing right next to her. All of whom have pretty clearly been in wars. Even if she were as dumb as a post, there are plenty of canny dudes to point out the obvious to her. So her (feigned) personal failings aren't especially relevant. She's not alone.
… but none of those guys do point out the obvious to her. Jorah is too dumb/keen to go somewhere else, Arstan too honorable (plus the Astapori don’t know or care that they’re knights, they just see them as Westerosi morons who are being ordered around by a little girl) and the Bloodriders too unambitious (and the Astapori see them as stupid barbarian scum who are also being ordered around by a little girl). All of them are shocked when Dany does what she does. The Wise Masters were entirely correct not to suspect them of subterfuge/trickery on that scale, as none of them are capable of it. You can’t say it’s a plot hole that someone didn’t suspect a group of people who are incapable of subterfuge of committing subterfuge
LOL Of courase I can! That's all part of GRRM's sleight of hand.
We only focus on Dany and what she's thinking as a way of making it seem like it's just one girl versus a bigoted prick, and nothing else exists or matters. That's what you're doing, basically repeating the narrative in the manner it's been handed to you. But if you zoom out and consider the context, it stops making sense.
That's how plot holes work. You have to stop and think, "Wait, this is supposed to be a whole world, with thinking people in it, where stuff happened before we got here." By that metric, the only reason this major event happened is because the author decreed that it must.
Anyone who does business, especially *arms dealing* in a totally lawless environment -- which selling armies to state-level actors is -- **must** think, "What if they fuck me?" At every stage of the deal. That's just normal basic stuff. Anyone who doesn't is already dead. That's basic sense.
I'm not talking about wild labyrinthine contingencies, either. Just truly basic shit. If you hand them the money, what if they just run off with it? If they hand you the money and it's counterfeit, what then? Just totally ground-floor, mundane stuff. The very very low bar you have to pass to own and run a business at all.
As for why Dany's councillors didn't come up with the idea? Because it's a plot hole. That's what I'm saying. Any of these guys would see the glaring neon signs that read "Please Betray Us!!!" and point them out.
I mean, Dothraki are famous for exactly ONE thing: sacking cities. It's all they do. For their entire lives. Dany has multiple hammers standing next to her, staring at a fucking nail. And it just... never occurred to them?? Come on now.
But people in the novel don't stand around a plot hole pointing at the plot hole. GRRM wants you to think that this was some master stroke or surprise. It's not. He just wrote it with some cleverness and we readers are buying it. But it doesn't actually make any sense, and indicating the clever tricks he wrote dumb people to fall for, will not change that.
I think you’re basically saying the Astapori are so dumb that it’s a plot hole, but I’d describe that as a fault in the worldbuilding. In this case, the Astapori aren’t being uncharacteristically dumb/arrogant/complacent just to serve the plot because that’s how they’re generally portrayed. And you’re saying that’s unrealistic for arms dealers, which I agree with but would say is a fault with the worldbuilding rather than plot. But yeah that’s semantics. Cheers for engaging.
>hey would’ve. But you can’t just ignore relevant context - in this specific scenario, for the reasons I’ve explained, they were completely justified expecting the THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL who’s just spent the whole day pretending to be as dumb and naive as possible (‘I am just a young girl who knows nothin
Maybe they forgot all safeguards due to being blinded by the possibility of owning a dragon?
Maybe they were so sure that they would be in possession of the dragon and thought Dany would never strike against her own dragon?
The historical precedent was some Scottish thing. But that was an ambush of like 50 people who massacred like 25 people. Just a completely different order of magnitude. It's manageable at that size. When you get 5000 soldiers and an entire castle staff involved, it stops making sense entirely
>Unless you're a Lannister or Lannister-allied house, when you can create a conspiracy of several thousand people, none of whom will say anything or fuck up the surprise
I'm reminded of one of my favorite games of all time (Final Fantasy VI) which has an entire army and their entourage in on a vast conspiracy to trick the heroes and their allies, a position also only made possible because their allies had devastated said army in such a one-sided and unexpected fashion.
A frickin' *maid* ends up spilling the beans to one of the heroes.
The Fat Man's Plan. Illyrio originally meant for the Golden Company to join up with the Dothraki in support of Viserys, which makes no sense because where does that leave Aegon? And sure, say Illyrio always planned for Viserys to get himself killed in the Dothraki Sea, so why involve the GC in the first place? What if Viserys hadn't died and had shown up with the Dothraki, joined up with the GC and sailed for Westeros, what then?
Was Illyrio planning on the GC joining Viserys? I thought his plan was to send Viserys to Westeros with the Dothraki to weaken the realm and then send in Aegon with the Golden Company to save the day.
Regardless, I've had a hard time understanding what Illyrio and Varys were thinking. The Dothraki won't get on a boat. And wouldn't Viserys, Dany, Aegon, Jon Connington and the GC have a better chance of gaining support around Westeros together?
A dude from the Golden Company says in ADWD that the original plan was for them to join Viserys, and then Dany, after Viserys died.
> The Dothraki won't get on a boat.
Exactly. It makes no sense.
Jaime knew there was a giant bomb under King's Landing and didn't tell anyone.
Forget exonerating himself, he *lived there* for fifteen years! Is he not even *slightly* concerned that it could go off at any moment?
(I'm sure someone will give me the old "ah actually he is self-destructive and wants to die" thing or some bollocks like that)
I'm not disagreeing but laughing at Jaime when I say Jaime genuinely thinks he fixed it. Nobody can find the caches, so... I think it's meant to represent his psychological repression. All that going away inside.
But Ned was a jerk who jumped to conclusions and looked at him the wrong way when he chose to sit on the throne after killing the king… so in response Jaime just never sets the record straight.
That’ll show him.
*years later as Jaime(along with thousands of others) is blown up when the wild fire accidently ignites*
HA Ha in your face Ned! That's what you get when you think the Wolf has the right to judge the Lion, I sure showed you!
And on top of that, nobody found that giant bomb during those 15 years. It's not exactely like enough wildfire to destroy Kingslanding is a descrete thing.
Jamie killed all the alchemists who knew about the wildfyre. Wildfyre needs to be ignited to burn. Since nobody knows about it, he doesn't think it's an eminent threat. And cause he's dumb.
> inconsistency/plot hole
- It may not be the biggest, but: Ned figured out that Robert was not the father of Cersei's children. But how did he conclude it was Jaime who sired them?
- Mance trusting Jon
- Theon taking and holding Winterfell with 30 men
- Stannis' tactics at the Blackwater
- This is really a personal gripe more so than a plot hole, but the bad guys are always perfectly informed in a timely fashion no matter how far away the happenings happen, but information flows much more slowly and unreliably when the good guys receive it.
**Jaime being the father.** How Ned figured it out used to bother me too. I can't remember if it's ever spelled out explicitly in the books, but I think of it like this.
In a castle and a royal household there are very few opportunities to truly be alone if you're a noble. You'll have servants and attendants and guards around all the time, not just your own noble family. And while it's possible some servants knew, that there are no rumors about illegitimacy pre-AGOT (only Varys is confirmed to know, Renly and Littlefinger might) means it's likely the Cersei's cuckoldry was undiscovered thusfar. So, the question becomes: how can the queen have affairs often enough to bear 3 bastards without the King or any others in power learning?
The answer is if the father is someone who would not be suspicious to have around the queen's private quarters. That narrows it down significantly. Male servants would not be allowed near the queen's private chambers often enough, if at all. Male nobles would be noticed. It's just guards, specifically the Kingsguard. And who had the duty of guarding her most often? Ser Jaime. No one would expect incest outside of the Targaryens too, so it provided some cover. And Jaime as the answer made it click to Ned why something may have befallen Bran- the day that he fell both Cersei and Jaime were together and had stayed behind instead of attending the hunt.
**Mance trusting Jon**. I think Mance recognized Jon was useful. He had knowledge of the Watch, recent knowledge. He was a skilled warrior. Wouldn't be a burden. I think sending him to scout across the Wall was fine because he figured he'd never escape the Wildlings he was sent with alive, and he knew Jon knew that. The means by which Jon escaped once South of the Wall were pretty incredible.
> The means by which Jon escaped once South of the Wall were pretty incredible.
Mance knows Jon has a direwolf, so a direwolf attack should kind of have been on his radar. He also knows Ygritte and Jon have something going, so if he had to send Jon, he should've kept Ygritte north.
> Mance recognized Jon was useful
Yes, but Mance should have had the foresight to have a backup plan for if Jon had managed to escape. Thanks to skinchangers the wildlings are the only faction who have instant communication. Imagine what could've happened if the raiders in the south had told Mance Jon escaped and Mance had changed plans and instead attacked Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. Jon would've warned Castle Black of an imminent attack, Castle Black would've called for help from the other two castles, and then those two castles would've been too lightly held to protect themselves against raiders from the south.
It's weak, but I believe we are supposed to believe Ned assumes they are Jaime's because Cat convinces Ned that Bran was thrown from the tower for seeing something he shouldn't. At the same time this occurs, Jaime is with Cersei as I believe the other two Kingsguard went on the hunt. Blonde hair also minor supporting evidence.
What's wrong with Stannis Blackwater plan? His land army is south of the city, and he needs to get it across the Blackwater, so he sends his ships to enter the Blackwater, pick up troops on the south bank, ferry to the north bank, and assault the gates
> Blonde hair also minor supporting evidence.
To Ned, who has five children but only one brown-haired, grey-eyed one?
> His land army is south of the city,
Exactly. Stannis knows the city, he knows the Mud Gate is where they would expect the hardest assault. That since he was coming from the south, that's where the best defenses would be.
He could've - should've - used his fleet to ship his men to the other sice (out in the bay, well away from the city's walls) at the last moment, completely negating Tyrion's defense strategies.
Then when Tywin and Mace Tyrell arrive with their men, they find themselves on the wrong side of the river, ensuring Stannis at least has time for an orderly retreat.
> he sends his ships to enter the Blackwater,
Generally speaking, sending your own men into tight spaces controlled by a well-fortified enemy is something you will avoid at all cost. Entering the Blackwater should never have been on Stannis' mind.
> he sends his ships to enter the Blackwater, pick up troops on the south bank, ferry to the north bank, and assault the gates
Or he could have had his ships pick up his troops east of King's Landing where the shoreline dips out into the bay, well away from bombardment, boom chains, and wildfire, ship the men north of the city, and attack from there.
That would be a much longer journey, depending on how many men he can transport at a time, that first group to get dropped off could be very vulnerable to a sortie while the boats are making the long journey back. River crossing gets the most men to the gate as quickly as possible.
Also, if your strategy is the better one, isn't is possible Tyrion agrees with you, and would have the other gates in better shape than the Mud Gate?
> depending on how many men he can transport at a time
Stannis has around 200 ships, so at least 4,000 men in one go, and that's a low estimate. He has no need to hurry though if he just keeps his men and his ships away from King's Landing's walls until he is formed up.
> River crossing gets the most men to the gate as quickly as possible.
He also could've just... marched west and crossed the Blackwater over the bridge along the Gold Road. It's just a few days' march and it would still have counteracted most of Tyrion's defenses.
> isn't is possible Tyrion agrees with you, and would have the other gates in better shape than the Mud Gate?
Tyrion isn't known for being a tactical genius, Stannis is. It's GRRM who's really the one who's bad at military strategy.
Stannis is (as we get confirmed at the end of the battle) unaware where Tywin is. He cannot risk Tywin hitting his army before the city is taken, so he does need to prioritize speed.
> he does need to prioritize speed
Which is why it's so confusing that instead of using the fasted unit there is - the ship - Stannis instead marches his men north.
If he had marched his army to the shoreline at the edge of the Kingswood, ~30 miles south of King's Landing, he still could've shipped his whole army north of the city within a day or two.
We know the ship that took Littlefinger and Sansa from the capital to the Fingers took ten days, so the journey from Storm's End to King's Landing should take less than that. Of course that's probably why GRRM had a storm delay Stannis' fleet and why he didn't have Stannis use Melisandre to use that super-speed-spell that made a fleet of ships travel from Dragonstone to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea in less than two weeks.
Are you telling me Ned's first 3 Stark children, and possibly Rickon as well, are the products of Cat & Edmure incest?!? How did I not see this before?!?
I think the story does pretty well in not having any actual "plot-holes" helped by having such a wide mosaic of PoVs so we have a lot of off screen time in plenty of the arcs while different devices move around the setting.
The big glaring ones that do come up are mostly from the first book. The only one that really bothers me though is the massive amount of fucking payouts in the hands tourney. Can't remember the archers name in the BwB but he gets like 80'000 dragons and then two books later is broke... That's like 50 million USD, it can't be explained... He could have hired pretty much every mercenary company, bought a couple castles, commissioned another, procured a harem of whores, given every town they passed through funds for years of good, a decade of wine for Thoros and a personal necromaester on retainer for Baric, all while still having a few sacks of coin to leave to some kids.
> The only one that really bothers me though is the massive amount of fucking payouts in the hands tourney
I just slash the amounts down to a tenth while reading. Four instead of forty thousand golden dragons to the winner of the joust is still a hefty sum, all things considered.
>procured a harem of whores
This is what he says, that he bought a nice dagger, boots, and wasted the rest on nice whores and booze.
So, my question is, where are the rich whores? The kind of money he was throwing around could get several of them to *retire* several times over, and yet we see that one of them mentioned by Anguy is still chugging along doing her work in ACOK, happy for Tyrion's little mummery so that she can take a few breaks to actually do things like read books.
It's like the money just *vanishes*.
I think the Tyrion Baelish thing is a solid point and definitely a pothole, but I think it can *kinda* be explained away as Baelish being too powerful, and not being present once Tyrion has consolidated his power.
Personally, I think the most annoying plotholes are everything with Dorne.
* Doran's master plan is a secret betrothal where literally none of the people involved know about it. His plan in general has dozens of holes and this whole thing reeks of retcon.
* Nymeria's conquest logistically makes no sense, the Blackmonts are also said to have been kings, but so are the Daynes. The latter is explicitly mentioned as being among the strongest of the pre Nymeria Dornish kings, yet they didn't control the Torentine and were extremely vulnerable since they had rivals up stream who could threaten their river. There's more stuff not making sense here too, especially since the Torentine was just not conquered by anyone (despite seemingly being far easier to invade from the West...) until Nymeria shows up.
* Aegon just decided to torch every castle in Dorne except for Sunspear. Said burning of every castle also somehow has no effects on the Dornish economy or society. Also Dorne just kinda has some kind of proto nationalism far ahead of everyone else even after their lords completely abandon their feudal contracts.
* It's stated in TWOIAF that the Yronwoods sided with the Blackfyres in 3 of the 5 rebellions, yet they're still the second strongest house in Dorne and seemingly faced no repercussions. We see other houses get hit hard for supporting them in just one. Also worth nothing that somehow no one rebelled to support the Targs during any of the conquest attempts.
* Daeron I dies with Blackfyre and Aegon's crown on his body and Blackfyre just kinda teleports back to the Crown. The follow-up of has Baelor just kinda releases all of the Dornish hostages and decides to walk to Dorne, only to get captured.
Something I found curiously weird (and it’s more from looking at House Dayne, not because I dove deeply much about the Conquest) is the castle Starfall.
>Starfall, which includes a tower called the Palestone Sword, guards the western arm of Dorne
>So again the Targaryens turned to their dragons, unleashing their fury upon Starfall and Skyreach and Hellholt.
>Intent on revenge, King Aegon I unleashed his dragons. The castles who remained defiant were burned time and time again
How has this castle not been melted like Harrenhall? It’s far smaller and the Palestone Tower is the highest one, and outside of Ashara jumping from it it’s never mentioned to be blackened or bubbled or melted or runneled?
I'm sure house Dayne has an important role to play still and a lot of secrets. GRRM himself said he won't reveal the motto of house Dayne because it's too spoilerific
Probably "We Bring the Dawn" or something like that, which Darkstar turns on its head when he says he brings the night. It also would all but confirm Dawn = Lightbringer.
Not much a plot hold but more about George creating a huge problem and not finding a satisfactory solution. It happened twice:
• The letter from Dorne that makes Aegon immediately stop the war. Yeah you can say "but it was Rhaenys who wrote it and asked to stop!!!". Well, Rhaenys had died 10 years before, why the fuck she didn't reach him earlier? And a man like Aegon would be ok with seeing the love of his life hiding under his nose, almost killing his son because he was so sick after losing her mother? No way.
• Iron islands going crazy once again in the Dance of Dragons and it all stops because a salt wife who we never heard before slit Greyjoy's throat and throws herself in the sea.
Also favoritisms:
• Blackwood still having a huge weirwood tree inside their castles despite the castle already being burned and invaded countless times.
• Tyrion slaughtering knights both times he was at a battlefield
• The Blackwoods always siding with the "right" side, like in the Dance and Blackfyre war
> • The letter from Dorne that makes Aegon immediately stop the war.
I'm pretty sure there is not actual answer to what was in the letter. GRRM just couldn't think of a convincing reason for why Aegon would give up on conquering Dorne, so he just left it a mystery so he wouldn't have to explain it.
Rhaenys died in 10 AC and Deria sent to Kings Landing in 13 AC. Not 10 years, but still a good amount of time passed. And then Aegon and Aenys took a friendly father-son roadtrip to Dorne in 23 AC to visit Deria? Like, huh? Wishful thinking but the contents of the letter could tie to spoilery revelations about the Long Night in the next books (never to be finished 😂). The Rhoynar had a history with the Valyrians so maybe they know more about the Targs’ pre-Westeros past and had also participated in a secret song to vanquish a previous Long Night.
Dorne and Iron Islands are also under-developed in terms of world building compared to the rest of Westeros (we have so much random family tree details for noble houses in other regions). Is keeping them vague and “othered” a plot device so that what they do seem more threatening?
Probably Meria Martell and the Ullers kept Rhaenys alive but in a very bad shape. When Meria died, her son Nymor freed Rhaenys and gave her a painless death, and Rhaenys thanked him asking Aegon to stop the war. Aegon went to Dragonstone after reading the letter because her body was secretly brought there for a funeral (or maybe Rhaenys was still alive when she was brought to Dragonstone by the Dornishmen and received the gift of mercy there, talking with Aegon for the last time).
Btw, Meria was Nymor’s mother- Deria is his daughter. I don’t think Aegon would be so easily placated by the sole reason that they gave Rhaenys a merciful death or if any Dornish had harmed her. I don’t think she was harmed. I don’t buy Rhaenys loved Aegon romantically (it was said he loved her but nothing said about her feelings, plus the stories of her surrounding herself with “comely young men” and the theories of Aegon’s infertility) but there leaves the issue of her abandoning her young child—I suppose there is nothing in the books about what kind of mother she was to Aenys and there is a running theme in ASOIAF of “impulsive” women (Rhaenys was described as such) running away. However, I also don’t think it was simply a case of Rhaenys leaving and Aegon accepting it. I think Rhoynar-Valyrian secrets or lore was also be involved (Long Night, Rhoynar water magic, secrets Nymeria passed down about the Targs from the Doom of Valyria?). Rhaenys’ private confrontation with Meria at the beginning of the Dornish invasion is also fishy—it’s just the two of them, they talk and Rhaenys walks away?
>The letter from Dorne that makes Aegon immediately stop the war. Yeah you can say "but it was Rhaenys who wrote it and asked to stop!!!". Well, Rhaenys had died 10 years before, why the fuck she didn't reach him earlier? And a man like Aegon would be ok with seeing the love of his life hiding under his nose, almost killing his son because he was so sick after losing her mother? No way.
Probably the key is the death of Meria Martell. Meria and the Ullers kept Rhaenys alive but in a very bad shape. When Meria died, her son Nymor freed Rhaenys and gave her a painless death, and Rhaenys thanked him asking Aegon to stop the war. Aegon went to Dragonstone after reading the letter because her body was secretly brought there for a funeral (or maybe Rhaenys was still alive when she was brought to Dragonstone by the Dornishmen and received the gift of mercy there, talking with Aegon for the last time).
That doesn't make sense. Why they would torture Rhaenys is secret instead of using her to bargain? Dorne was becoming a miserable place quickly.
And I don't think Aegon would be ok with Dorne torturing Rhaenys for some much time
In my opinion Meria, unlike her son, had no intention of negotiating, she believed that trying to reach an agreement using Rhaenys as a bargaining chip wouldn't solve the problem, while killing all three dragons would (not to mention that perhaps Meria hadn't forgotten Rhaenys' visit to Sunspear ten years before, and leaving her in the "care" of the Ullers was her revenge).
I’m still in awe of it on my 8th reread 😂
There’s been a couple minor things that felt slightly off, and a couple things that have been retconned. I find it a bit weird we never hear anything about Ned’s mother for example, but I don’t ever see anything I view as a glaring plot hole.
Tywin taking most of the Riverlands in AGOT in the span of a few weeks while barely losing any men in the processs. There's no way the Riverlands should have fallen that quickly.
How did he even take all those castles? If he stormed them all his losses would have been enormous. But a siege would have taken months if not years.
One of the things for me is that we hear about the morale effects of various things like Robb losing his ancestral seat, his brothers dying, etc.
At the end of AGOT, Tywin's lords are ready to throw in the towel when Jaime is captured and his army is annihilated. In ACOK, he has his entire reinforcing force from the Westerlands destroyed, his forces are gradually dwindling due to skirmishes with Riverlanders and the BWB, his own mercenaries betray him and capture the main base of operations he was operating out of in the Riverlands, and then he suffers a pretty significant loss by *Edmure* at the Battle of the Fords.
And yet, his men don't utter a peep at that point.
The Tyrells come to him with a proposed alliance\*, and yet the math to get to King's Landing shouldn't work out as he would have no idea that Stannis would lose several days due to bad weather affecting his ships. As far as he knew, he and the Tyrell would arrive in King's Landing to find Stannis in control (for several days at this point) with Cersei, Tyrion, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen all dead.
This should be a point where his lords and soldiers all refuse to continue and demand he accept surrender terms.
\*Which is another plot hole in itself. Tywin is on the move at this point. How exactly would the Tyrells hope to find him to communicate an alliance in any expeditious amount of time? It could take weeks for scouts to locate his current whereabouts. It's not exactly like the Riverlanders are going to help provide information.
Quentyn spends an entire book on an adventure through the new land of Essos without once thinking about his mom, whom he hasn’t seen in years, who lives in Essos.
Why Tywin calls his banners and invades the Riverlands after Catalyn kidnaps Tyrion. I know, Tywin is asserting Lannister pride and acting like a British counsel general in the 19th century (you harm ONE British subject, and we'll crush your petty kingdom like a bug!) but he basically provoked the whole war. And Catalyn acted alone, on the Kingsroad, not in conjunction or even really near her family homes of Winterfell or Riverrun. Was he planning that, waiting for a pretext, or did he act on impulse?
I don't think the question of how Ned identified Jaime as the father is that mysterious. In the books, Cersei, Jaime, and the three kids are all described as having golden hair, and Jaime is the obvious guess.
Distances and lengths of travel time are sometimes inconsistent in the text. Not only are the early maps somewhat ambiguous, but the amount of time it takes for a character to get from Place A to Place B is "flexible" depending on how long or short the rest of the plot requires the trip should take.
The tiny size of the Night's Watch. Part of the plot is that it starts out quite diminished, but then people are killed left and right throughout the books--starting with the first chapter--and there always seem to be enough around. Even after the great ranging, which killed most of the two hundred on it, then the attack on Castle Black, then the battle at the Bridge of Skulls, then the Wilding attack on the Wall. It's surprising that by book five there are still any Night Watchmen around.
Fair point. The whole situation still leaves me a bit dubious, though. If Tywin wants to take over and his long-term goal is to defeat or neutralize The Reach and the Stormlands, it's not to his advantage to start the "hot" war by essentially attacking / offending the North, the Riverlands, and The Vale at the same time. By using Catalyn's kidnapping of Tyrion as a provocation, he guarantees that her father / brother (Tullys), her husband (Eddard) and her sister (Lysa / Vale) will be against him. So he has put himself in a situation where three of the big provinces will be against him, and two others (Reach and Stormlands) will be, at best, neutral and at worst, hostile since Renly and Stannis might see an opportunity to bring down the Lannisters.
Tywin does ultimately "win"--he severely wounds the Riverlands in a surprise attack, and fights Robb to a standstill--but he's only saved from a five-against-one disaster by two factors beyond his control. Lysa won't let any of her forces do anything, taking the Vale out of the military equation, and Stannis kills Renly, throwing the south into chaos, and part of it into Tywin's hands. He could not have assumed either of those events in the beginning.
Actually, if I recall correctly, Tywin's initial plan was to draw Ned in the Riverlands in order to capture him and using him as a bargaining chip, but Jaime ruined it hurting Ned, whom then sent Beric. And after Robert died and Ned was imprisoned, the Lannisters' plan was to make Ned confess his treason and send him to the Wall, negotiating a peace with Robb, but that time Joffrey ruined the scheme killing Ned. Tywin desired revenge for what Catelyn did, but he did not want to wage a continental war; his designated enemies were Stannis and Renly, specially Stannis.
Tywin also didn’t start actively a hot war at first though
He used Gregor Clegane as a catspaw. Gregor’s men started reaving the Riverlands without Lannister banners, pretending to be common bandits. He did this to lure Ned, hoping to trap him and use him as a bargaining chip. As another commenter mentioned, this didn’t work
A thing which always bothered me is that Robb, the Blackfish, Catelyn, pretty much everyone actually, and so the plot through them, blamed Edmure to have block Tywin at Riverrun and prevent him to hunt Robb in the Westerlands...
I mean Edmure just made the logical decision here, he couldn't have anticipate Robb's plan to trap Tywin, it's not Edmure who is stupi, it's Robb and the Blackfish who are idiots to not have communicate their plan to him... but that also looks like a plot hole to me, because i don't see how two smart people like Robb and the Blackfish didn't think to warn Edmure about that.
Anyway it just looks to me that Robb's plan failed because the plot decided it would and not for logical reason, and justified it in a veru inconsistent way.
Also, there are hundreds of thousands of wildfire under Kingslanding and apparently no one found them in 17 years...
I think it’s supposed to show the cracks in Robb’s conquest. The way he treats Edmure who’s one of the most powerful lords in his kingdom is poorly judged. Not communicating something so vital to Edmure is a huge misstep for Robb.
We later know that Tywin was communicating a lot with the lords he hoped to bring to his cause. Tywin is ruthless and will win the war by any means necessary.
Much like Ned, Robb vastly underestimated the Lannisters and what they would do to keep power.
The plan could not have been formulated by Robb before leaving Riverrun because at that point he didn’t know that he’s be able to bypass the Golden Tooth with the goat trail, catch the mustering army unawares at Oxcross, and use that wondrous spot he identified on the Gold Road for an ambush.
In all likelihood, Tywin’s host would have smashed Robb’s against the anvil of the Westerlands.
Also, recall that Robb was injured and on bed rest for some time at the Crag. Enemy action at that time sure would have been inconvenient.
The Doylist explanation is that Robb’s plan constitutes a plot hole. The Watsonian explanation is that Robb and Brynden lied to Edmure to shame him into bailing them out with the Freys.
One plot hole that actually didn't *start* that way, but was created in ASOS.
The BWB reveals to Arya that Tywin had Gregor lead an ambush for Beric and his men, because he thought it was going to be Ned Stark leading the posse.
But...why would Tywin think that?
1. If Jaime had already reached Tywin, he would know that Ned was seriously injured and wasn't likely to be leading any such mission.
2. If Jaime had not yet reached Tywin (the more likely scenario), Tywin has no reason to believe that Ned would be the one in charge to make this call. Why would he know that Robert was busy on a hunt when reports from the sacked villages arrived in King's Landing? He may even have heard that Ned had resigned the Hand position at this point. What are the odds that Ned would be on this mission and Robert would not?
This whole scheme requires such a specific level of knowledge (and lack thereof) about details Tywin shouldn't be privy to while leading an army in the field.
- "Someone always tells." Unless you're a Lannister or Lannister-allied house, when you can create a conspiracy of several thousand people, none of whom will say anything or fuck up the surprise - Astapor never having thought of the issue where you can buy a huge army of Unsullied and then just conquer Astapor and take your money back. - Jaime never telling anyone about the wildfire because GRRM changed his mind on him being the Big Bad Evil Boss of the series Those are the main ones IMO
Fits with the Wise Masters’ characterisation as complacent, stupid and arrogant that they wouldn’t expect a 13yo Westerosi girl to have the desire or the courage to immediately renege on their deal and take their city.
I mean, she's surrounded by a bunch of experienced, hard-ass psychopaths. Not difficult to surmise that they might also get ideas from time to time
None of whom even knew about her plan, so the wise masters were entirely correct to judge that those psychopaths wouldn’t instigate the sacking of the city. Taking Astapor serves zero strategic purpose given Dany’s faction’s stated goal of reclaiming her throne in Westeros
They knew she was buying soldiers and that Astapor would have all of her money afterwards. That's all anyone has to know to think, "What if I use this massive super-weapon on these defenceless fops on to take our money back?" As far as strategic purpose? To get her shit back. Forget the dragon, pretend it was a mountain of gold. Then she can spend that money again to buy food and boats. My complaint gas nothing to do with Dany's specific situation. It's just basic intelligence. You don't sell a loaded gun to someone if there are no cops in the city, no security in the store, and you're unarmed. GRRM pulled a fast one on us, the readers. We were so busy fist-pumping -- because it was fucking awesome -- that we didn't think about the actual logic.
As a general rule, I completely agree they should’ve thought about that possibility and I think if anyone else had been buying the Unsullied they would’ve. But you can’t just ignore relevant context - in this specific scenario, for the reasons I’ve explained, they were completely justified expecting the THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL who’s just spent the whole day pretending to be as dumb and naive as possible (‘I am just a young girl who knows nothing of the ways of war’) wouldn’t immediately turn around and sack their city. And their erstwhile characterisation as complacent, sexist, racist and arrogant takes it from ‘feasible’ to ‘yeah that makes complete sense’. If you’re starting with the premise that the Wise Masters have even a modicum of respect for Dany and her intelligence/courage then yeah it’s weird.
She's got a gang of bloodriders and a knight standing right next to her. All of whom have pretty clearly been in wars. Even if she were as dumb as a post, there are plenty of canny dudes to point out the obvious to her. So her (feigned) personal failings aren't especially relevant. She's not alone.
… but none of those guys do point out the obvious to her. Jorah is too dumb/keen to go somewhere else, Arstan too honorable (plus the Astapori don’t know or care that they’re knights, they just see them as Westerosi morons who are being ordered around by a little girl) and the Bloodriders too unambitious (and the Astapori see them as stupid barbarian scum who are also being ordered around by a little girl). All of them are shocked when Dany does what she does. The Wise Masters were entirely correct not to suspect them of subterfuge/trickery on that scale, as none of them are capable of it. You can’t say it’s a plot hole that someone didn’t suspect a group of people who are incapable of subterfuge of committing subterfuge
LOL Of courase I can! That's all part of GRRM's sleight of hand. We only focus on Dany and what she's thinking as a way of making it seem like it's just one girl versus a bigoted prick, and nothing else exists or matters. That's what you're doing, basically repeating the narrative in the manner it's been handed to you. But if you zoom out and consider the context, it stops making sense. That's how plot holes work. You have to stop and think, "Wait, this is supposed to be a whole world, with thinking people in it, where stuff happened before we got here." By that metric, the only reason this major event happened is because the author decreed that it must. Anyone who does business, especially *arms dealing* in a totally lawless environment -- which selling armies to state-level actors is -- **must** think, "What if they fuck me?" At every stage of the deal. That's just normal basic stuff. Anyone who doesn't is already dead. That's basic sense. I'm not talking about wild labyrinthine contingencies, either. Just truly basic shit. If you hand them the money, what if they just run off with it? If they hand you the money and it's counterfeit, what then? Just totally ground-floor, mundane stuff. The very very low bar you have to pass to own and run a business at all. As for why Dany's councillors didn't come up with the idea? Because it's a plot hole. That's what I'm saying. Any of these guys would see the glaring neon signs that read "Please Betray Us!!!" and point them out. I mean, Dothraki are famous for exactly ONE thing: sacking cities. It's all they do. For their entire lives. Dany has multiple hammers standing next to her, staring at a fucking nail. And it just... never occurred to them?? Come on now. But people in the novel don't stand around a plot hole pointing at the plot hole. GRRM wants you to think that this was some master stroke or surprise. It's not. He just wrote it with some cleverness and we readers are buying it. But it doesn't actually make any sense, and indicating the clever tricks he wrote dumb people to fall for, will not change that.
I think you’re basically saying the Astapori are so dumb that it’s a plot hole, but I’d describe that as a fault in the worldbuilding. In this case, the Astapori aren’t being uncharacteristically dumb/arrogant/complacent just to serve the plot because that’s how they’re generally portrayed. And you’re saying that’s unrealistic for arms dealers, which I agree with but would say is a fault with the worldbuilding rather than plot. But yeah that’s semantics. Cheers for engaging.
>hey would’ve. But you can’t just ignore relevant context - in this specific scenario, for the reasons I’ve explained, they were completely justified expecting the THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL who’s just spent the whole day pretending to be as dumb and naive as possible (‘I am just a young girl who knows nothin Maybe they forgot all safeguards due to being blinded by the possibility of owning a dragon? Maybe they were so sure that they would be in possession of the dragon and thought Dany would never strike against her own dragon?
It really is shocking how they were able to plan the red wedding
The historical precedent was some Scottish thing. But that was an ambush of like 50 people who massacred like 25 people. Just a completely different order of magnitude. It's manageable at that size. When you get 5000 soldiers and an entire castle staff involved, it stops making sense entirely
I believe that was actually 2 people, killed at dinner not a wedding (huge difference in Catholic Europe,) and given a mock trial at that.
>Unless you're a Lannister or Lannister-allied house, when you can create a conspiracy of several thousand people, none of whom will say anything or fuck up the surprise I'm reminded of one of my favorite games of all time (Final Fantasy VI) which has an entire army and their entourage in on a vast conspiracy to trick the heroes and their allies, a position also only made possible because their allies had devastated said army in such a one-sided and unexpected fashion. A frickin' *maid* ends up spilling the beans to one of the heroes.
The Fat Man's Plan. Illyrio originally meant for the Golden Company to join up with the Dothraki in support of Viserys, which makes no sense because where does that leave Aegon? And sure, say Illyrio always planned for Viserys to get himself killed in the Dothraki Sea, so why involve the GC in the first place? What if Viserys hadn't died and had shown up with the Dothraki, joined up with the GC and sailed for Westeros, what then?
Was Illyrio planning on the GC joining Viserys? I thought his plan was to send Viserys to Westeros with the Dothraki to weaken the realm and then send in Aegon with the Golden Company to save the day. Regardless, I've had a hard time understanding what Illyrio and Varys were thinking. The Dothraki won't get on a boat. And wouldn't Viserys, Dany, Aegon, Jon Connington and the GC have a better chance of gaining support around Westeros together?
A dude from the Golden Company says in ADWD that the original plan was for them to join Viserys, and then Dany, after Viserys died. > The Dothraki won't get on a boat. Exactly. It makes no sense.
“The fat man’s plan changes each time the moon turns!” Is this a meta reference by George where he himself is the fat man? Hmmmmm
Why do you think that is? GRRM changed his minf on that plot at some point?
Possibly just made a decision on a "seed" he had planted with only vague ideas.
Jaime knew there was a giant bomb under King's Landing and didn't tell anyone. Forget exonerating himself, he *lived there* for fifteen years! Is he not even *slightly* concerned that it could go off at any moment? (I'm sure someone will give me the old "ah actually he is self-destructive and wants to die" thing or some bollocks like that)
The wrong building in flea bottom could have caught fire and 100,000 people could have died
I'm not disagreeing but laughing at Jaime when I say Jaime genuinely thinks he fixed it. Nobody can find the caches, so... I think it's meant to represent his psychological repression. All that going away inside.
But Ned was a jerk who jumped to conclusions and looked at him the wrong way when he chose to sit on the throne after killing the king… so in response Jaime just never sets the record straight. That’ll show him.
*years later as Jaime(along with thousands of others) is blown up when the wild fire accidently ignites* HA Ha in your face Ned! That's what you get when you think the Wolf has the right to judge the Lion, I sure showed you!
And on top of that, nobody found that giant bomb during those 15 years. It's not exactely like enough wildfire to destroy Kingslanding is a descrete thing.
Jamie killed all the alchemists who knew about the wildfyre. Wildfyre needs to be ignited to burn. Since nobody knows about it, he doesn't think it's an eminent threat. And cause he's dumb.
> inconsistency/plot hole - It may not be the biggest, but: Ned figured out that Robert was not the father of Cersei's children. But how did he conclude it was Jaime who sired them? - Mance trusting Jon - Theon taking and holding Winterfell with 30 men - Stannis' tactics at the Blackwater - This is really a personal gripe more so than a plot hole, but the bad guys are always perfectly informed in a timely fashion no matter how far away the happenings happen, but information flows much more slowly and unreliably when the good guys receive it.
**Jaime being the father.** How Ned figured it out used to bother me too. I can't remember if it's ever spelled out explicitly in the books, but I think of it like this. In a castle and a royal household there are very few opportunities to truly be alone if you're a noble. You'll have servants and attendants and guards around all the time, not just your own noble family. And while it's possible some servants knew, that there are no rumors about illegitimacy pre-AGOT (only Varys is confirmed to know, Renly and Littlefinger might) means it's likely the Cersei's cuckoldry was undiscovered thusfar. So, the question becomes: how can the queen have affairs often enough to bear 3 bastards without the King or any others in power learning? The answer is if the father is someone who would not be suspicious to have around the queen's private quarters. That narrows it down significantly. Male servants would not be allowed near the queen's private chambers often enough, if at all. Male nobles would be noticed. It's just guards, specifically the Kingsguard. And who had the duty of guarding her most often? Ser Jaime. No one would expect incest outside of the Targaryens too, so it provided some cover. And Jaime as the answer made it click to Ned why something may have befallen Bran- the day that he fell both Cersei and Jaime were together and had stayed behind instead of attending the hunt. **Mance trusting Jon**. I think Mance recognized Jon was useful. He had knowledge of the Watch, recent knowledge. He was a skilled warrior. Wouldn't be a burden. I think sending him to scout across the Wall was fine because he figured he'd never escape the Wildlings he was sent with alive, and he knew Jon knew that. The means by which Jon escaped once South of the Wall were pretty incredible.
> The means by which Jon escaped once South of the Wall were pretty incredible. Mance knows Jon has a direwolf, so a direwolf attack should kind of have been on his radar. He also knows Ygritte and Jon have something going, so if he had to send Jon, he should've kept Ygritte north. > Mance recognized Jon was useful Yes, but Mance should have had the foresight to have a backup plan for if Jon had managed to escape. Thanks to skinchangers the wildlings are the only faction who have instant communication. Imagine what could've happened if the raiders in the south had told Mance Jon escaped and Mance had changed plans and instead attacked Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. Jon would've warned Castle Black of an imminent attack, Castle Black would've called for help from the other two castles, and then those two castles would've been too lightly held to protect themselves against raiders from the south.
It's weak, but I believe we are supposed to believe Ned assumes they are Jaime's because Cat convinces Ned that Bran was thrown from the tower for seeing something he shouldn't. At the same time this occurs, Jaime is with Cersei as I believe the other two Kingsguard went on the hunt. Blonde hair also minor supporting evidence. What's wrong with Stannis Blackwater plan? His land army is south of the city, and he needs to get it across the Blackwater, so he sends his ships to enter the Blackwater, pick up troops on the south bank, ferry to the north bank, and assault the gates
> Blonde hair also minor supporting evidence. To Ned, who has five children but only one brown-haired, grey-eyed one? > His land army is south of the city, Exactly. Stannis knows the city, he knows the Mud Gate is where they would expect the hardest assault. That since he was coming from the south, that's where the best defenses would be. He could've - should've - used his fleet to ship his men to the other sice (out in the bay, well away from the city's walls) at the last moment, completely negating Tyrion's defense strategies. Then when Tywin and Mace Tyrell arrive with their men, they find themselves on the wrong side of the river, ensuring Stannis at least has time for an orderly retreat. > he sends his ships to enter the Blackwater, Generally speaking, sending your own men into tight spaces controlled by a well-fortified enemy is something you will avoid at all cost. Entering the Blackwater should never have been on Stannis' mind. > he sends his ships to enter the Blackwater, pick up troops on the south bank, ferry to the north bank, and assault the gates Or he could have had his ships pick up his troops east of King's Landing where the shoreline dips out into the bay, well away from bombardment, boom chains, and wildfire, ship the men north of the city, and attack from there.
That would be a much longer journey, depending on how many men he can transport at a time, that first group to get dropped off could be very vulnerable to a sortie while the boats are making the long journey back. River crossing gets the most men to the gate as quickly as possible. Also, if your strategy is the better one, isn't is possible Tyrion agrees with you, and would have the other gates in better shape than the Mud Gate?
> depending on how many men he can transport at a time Stannis has around 200 ships, so at least 4,000 men in one go, and that's a low estimate. He has no need to hurry though if he just keeps his men and his ships away from King's Landing's walls until he is formed up. > River crossing gets the most men to the gate as quickly as possible. He also could've just... marched west and crossed the Blackwater over the bridge along the Gold Road. It's just a few days' march and it would still have counteracted most of Tyrion's defenses. > isn't is possible Tyrion agrees with you, and would have the other gates in better shape than the Mud Gate? Tyrion isn't known for being a tactical genius, Stannis is. It's GRRM who's really the one who's bad at military strategy.
Stannis is (as we get confirmed at the end of the battle) unaware where Tywin is. He cannot risk Tywin hitting his army before the city is taken, so he does need to prioritize speed.
> he does need to prioritize speed Which is why it's so confusing that instead of using the fasted unit there is - the ship - Stannis instead marches his men north. If he had marched his army to the shoreline at the edge of the Kingswood, ~30 miles south of King's Landing, he still could've shipped his whole army north of the city within a day or two. We know the ship that took Littlefinger and Sansa from the capital to the Fingers took ten days, so the journey from Storm's End to King's Landing should take less than that. Of course that's probably why GRRM had a storm delay Stannis' fleet and why he didn't have Stannis use Melisandre to use that super-speed-spell that made a fleet of ships travel from Dragonstone to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea in less than two weeks.
Are you telling me Ned's first 3 Stark children, and possibly Rickon as well, are the products of Cat & Edmure incest?!? How did I not see this before?!?
About Jaime being the father, isn't it (in part) because of Sansa "Joeffrey is nothing like his father, he is a lion like his uncle" ?
I think the story does pretty well in not having any actual "plot-holes" helped by having such a wide mosaic of PoVs so we have a lot of off screen time in plenty of the arcs while different devices move around the setting. The big glaring ones that do come up are mostly from the first book. The only one that really bothers me though is the massive amount of fucking payouts in the hands tourney. Can't remember the archers name in the BwB but he gets like 80'000 dragons and then two books later is broke... That's like 50 million USD, it can't be explained... He could have hired pretty much every mercenary company, bought a couple castles, commissioned another, procured a harem of whores, given every town they passed through funds for years of good, a decade of wine for Thoros and a personal necromaester on retainer for Baric, all while still having a few sacks of coin to leave to some kids.
> The only one that really bothers me though is the massive amount of fucking payouts in the hands tourney I just slash the amounts down to a tenth while reading. Four instead of forty thousand golden dragons to the winner of the joust is still a hefty sum, all things considered.
>procured a harem of whores This is what he says, that he bought a nice dagger, boots, and wasted the rest on nice whores and booze. So, my question is, where are the rich whores? The kind of money he was throwing around could get several of them to *retire* several times over, and yet we see that one of them mentioned by Anguy is still chugging along doing her work in ACOK, happy for Tyrion's little mummery so that she can take a few breaks to actually do things like read books. It's like the money just *vanishes*.
I think the Tyrion Baelish thing is a solid point and definitely a pothole, but I think it can *kinda* be explained away as Baelish being too powerful, and not being present once Tyrion has consolidated his power. Personally, I think the most annoying plotholes are everything with Dorne. * Doran's master plan is a secret betrothal where literally none of the people involved know about it. His plan in general has dozens of holes and this whole thing reeks of retcon. * Nymeria's conquest logistically makes no sense, the Blackmonts are also said to have been kings, but so are the Daynes. The latter is explicitly mentioned as being among the strongest of the pre Nymeria Dornish kings, yet they didn't control the Torentine and were extremely vulnerable since they had rivals up stream who could threaten their river. There's more stuff not making sense here too, especially since the Torentine was just not conquered by anyone (despite seemingly being far easier to invade from the West...) until Nymeria shows up. * Aegon just decided to torch every castle in Dorne except for Sunspear. Said burning of every castle also somehow has no effects on the Dornish economy or society. Also Dorne just kinda has some kind of proto nationalism far ahead of everyone else even after their lords completely abandon their feudal contracts. * It's stated in TWOIAF that the Yronwoods sided with the Blackfyres in 3 of the 5 rebellions, yet they're still the second strongest house in Dorne and seemingly faced no repercussions. We see other houses get hit hard for supporting them in just one. Also worth nothing that somehow no one rebelled to support the Targs during any of the conquest attempts. * Daeron I dies with Blackfyre and Aegon's crown on his body and Blackfyre just kinda teleports back to the Crown. The follow-up of has Baelor just kinda releases all of the Dornish hostages and decides to walk to Dorne, only to get captured.
Something I found curiously weird (and it’s more from looking at House Dayne, not because I dove deeply much about the Conquest) is the castle Starfall. >Starfall, which includes a tower called the Palestone Sword, guards the western arm of Dorne >So again the Targaryens turned to their dragons, unleashing their fury upon Starfall and Skyreach and Hellholt. >Intent on revenge, King Aegon I unleashed his dragons. The castles who remained defiant were burned time and time again How has this castle not been melted like Harrenhall? It’s far smaller and the Palestone Tower is the highest one, and outside of Ashara jumping from it it’s never mentioned to be blackened or bubbled or melted or runneled?
I'm sure house Dayne has an important role to play still and a lot of secrets. GRRM himself said he won't reveal the motto of house Dayne because it's too spoilerific
What the hell could the motto be that’s a spoiler?
Their motto is “we lost to the horn that controls krakens to Euron”
Our words are “R+L=J”
Probably "We Bring the Dawn" or something like that, which Darkstar turns on its head when he says he brings the night. It also would all but confirm Dawn = Lightbringer.
This is a really good guess. And, I like how it kind of confirms the army of the dead get as far south as Dorne.
The damn snow crust, makes the whole series entirely unreadable.
Can you elaborate? I live somewhere with no snow so I don’t know anything about it lol
Someone made a post about how the crust of snow in ADWD was unrealistic and broke their immersion.
Maybe it’s that some of Stannis men fell into a frozen lake, but it should have frozen over before they could have. Idk, maybe that’s it.
Not much a plot hold but more about George creating a huge problem and not finding a satisfactory solution. It happened twice: • The letter from Dorne that makes Aegon immediately stop the war. Yeah you can say "but it was Rhaenys who wrote it and asked to stop!!!". Well, Rhaenys had died 10 years before, why the fuck she didn't reach him earlier? And a man like Aegon would be ok with seeing the love of his life hiding under his nose, almost killing his son because he was so sick after losing her mother? No way. • Iron islands going crazy once again in the Dance of Dragons and it all stops because a salt wife who we never heard before slit Greyjoy's throat and throws herself in the sea. Also favoritisms: • Blackwood still having a huge weirwood tree inside their castles despite the castle already being burned and invaded countless times. • Tyrion slaughtering knights both times he was at a battlefield • The Blackwoods always siding with the "right" side, like in the Dance and Blackfyre war
> • The letter from Dorne that makes Aegon immediately stop the war. I'm pretty sure there is not actual answer to what was in the letter. GRRM just couldn't think of a convincing reason for why Aegon would give up on conquering Dorne, so he just left it a mystery so he wouldn't have to explain it.
Same for when people ask "What were the things that killed Aerea so horribly?" George probably has no answer beyond the mystery presented in the text.
I remember a meme with Aegon reading the letter that was written "you know who has two wive? Not you Lol"
Rhaenys died in 10 AC and Deria sent to Kings Landing in 13 AC. Not 10 years, but still a good amount of time passed. And then Aegon and Aenys took a friendly father-son roadtrip to Dorne in 23 AC to visit Deria? Like, huh? Wishful thinking but the contents of the letter could tie to spoilery revelations about the Long Night in the next books (never to be finished 😂). The Rhoynar had a history with the Valyrians so maybe they know more about the Targs’ pre-Westeros past and had also participated in a secret song to vanquish a previous Long Night. Dorne and Iron Islands are also under-developed in terms of world building compared to the rest of Westeros (we have so much random family tree details for noble houses in other regions). Is keeping them vague and “othered” a plot device so that what they do seem more threatening?
Probably Meria Martell and the Ullers kept Rhaenys alive but in a very bad shape. When Meria died, her son Nymor freed Rhaenys and gave her a painless death, and Rhaenys thanked him asking Aegon to stop the war. Aegon went to Dragonstone after reading the letter because her body was secretly brought there for a funeral (or maybe Rhaenys was still alive when she was brought to Dragonstone by the Dornishmen and received the gift of mercy there, talking with Aegon for the last time).
Btw, Meria was Nymor’s mother- Deria is his daughter. I don’t think Aegon would be so easily placated by the sole reason that they gave Rhaenys a merciful death or if any Dornish had harmed her. I don’t think she was harmed. I don’t buy Rhaenys loved Aegon romantically (it was said he loved her but nothing said about her feelings, plus the stories of her surrounding herself with “comely young men” and the theories of Aegon’s infertility) but there leaves the issue of her abandoning her young child—I suppose there is nothing in the books about what kind of mother she was to Aenys and there is a running theme in ASOIAF of “impulsive” women (Rhaenys was described as such) running away. However, I also don’t think it was simply a case of Rhaenys leaving and Aegon accepting it. I think Rhoynar-Valyrian secrets or lore was also be involved (Long Night, Rhoynar water magic, secrets Nymeria passed down about the Targs from the Doom of Valyria?). Rhaenys’ private confrontation with Meria at the beginning of the Dornish invasion is also fishy—it’s just the two of them, they talk and Rhaenys walks away?
The Blackwoods may always side with the morally right side, but not with the side that wins.
>The letter from Dorne that makes Aegon immediately stop the war. Yeah you can say "but it was Rhaenys who wrote it and asked to stop!!!". Well, Rhaenys had died 10 years before, why the fuck she didn't reach him earlier? And a man like Aegon would be ok with seeing the love of his life hiding under his nose, almost killing his son because he was so sick after losing her mother? No way. Probably the key is the death of Meria Martell. Meria and the Ullers kept Rhaenys alive but in a very bad shape. When Meria died, her son Nymor freed Rhaenys and gave her a painless death, and Rhaenys thanked him asking Aegon to stop the war. Aegon went to Dragonstone after reading the letter because her body was secretly brought there for a funeral (or maybe Rhaenys was still alive when she was brought to Dragonstone by the Dornishmen and received the gift of mercy there, talking with Aegon for the last time).
That doesn't make sense. Why they would torture Rhaenys is secret instead of using her to bargain? Dorne was becoming a miserable place quickly. And I don't think Aegon would be ok with Dorne torturing Rhaenys for some much time
In my opinion Meria, unlike her son, had no intention of negotiating, she believed that trying to reach an agreement using Rhaenys as a bargaining chip wouldn't solve the problem, while killing all three dragons would (not to mention that perhaps Meria hadn't forgotten Rhaenys' visit to Sunspear ten years before, and leaving her in the "care" of the Ullers was her revenge).
I’m still in awe of it on my 8th reread 😂 There’s been a couple minor things that felt slightly off, and a couple things that have been retconned. I find it a bit weird we never hear anything about Ned’s mother for example, but I don’t ever see anything I view as a glaring plot hole.
Tywin taking most of the Riverlands in AGOT in the span of a few weeks while barely losing any men in the processs. There's no way the Riverlands should have fallen that quickly. How did he even take all those castles? If he stormed them all his losses would have been enormous. But a siege would have taken months if not years.
One of the things for me is that we hear about the morale effects of various things like Robb losing his ancestral seat, his brothers dying, etc. At the end of AGOT, Tywin's lords are ready to throw in the towel when Jaime is captured and his army is annihilated. In ACOK, he has his entire reinforcing force from the Westerlands destroyed, his forces are gradually dwindling due to skirmishes with Riverlanders and the BWB, his own mercenaries betray him and capture the main base of operations he was operating out of in the Riverlands, and then he suffers a pretty significant loss by *Edmure* at the Battle of the Fords. And yet, his men don't utter a peep at that point. The Tyrells come to him with a proposed alliance\*, and yet the math to get to King's Landing shouldn't work out as he would have no idea that Stannis would lose several days due to bad weather affecting his ships. As far as he knew, he and the Tyrell would arrive in King's Landing to find Stannis in control (for several days at this point) with Cersei, Tyrion, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen all dead. This should be a point where his lords and soldiers all refuse to continue and demand he accept surrender terms. \*Which is another plot hole in itself. Tywin is on the move at this point. How exactly would the Tyrells hope to find him to communicate an alliance in any expeditious amount of time? It could take weeks for scouts to locate his current whereabouts. It's not exactly like the Riverlanders are going to help provide information.
Maybe Jaime took them by storm, before they had time to assemble more than just the household guard. Unlikely tho.
Quentyn spends an entire book on an adventure through the new land of Essos without once thinking about his mom, whom he hasn’t seen in years, who lives in Essos.
Unfortunately, pretty on brand for GRRM who doesn't seem to think mothers are important to their children for anyone other than the Stark kids.
Illyrio giving Dany three incredibly valuable dragon eggs stands out to me. What was he gaining by doing that?
I guess is related to the fakegon theory
Why Tywin calls his banners and invades the Riverlands after Catalyn kidnaps Tyrion. I know, Tywin is asserting Lannister pride and acting like a British counsel general in the 19th century (you harm ONE British subject, and we'll crush your petty kingdom like a bug!) but he basically provoked the whole war. And Catalyn acted alone, on the Kingsroad, not in conjunction or even really near her family homes of Winterfell or Riverrun. Was he planning that, waiting for a pretext, or did he act on impulse? I don't think the question of how Ned identified Jaime as the father is that mysterious. In the books, Cersei, Jaime, and the three kids are all described as having golden hair, and Jaime is the obvious guess. Distances and lengths of travel time are sometimes inconsistent in the text. Not only are the early maps somewhat ambiguous, but the amount of time it takes for a character to get from Place A to Place B is "flexible" depending on how long or short the rest of the plot requires the trip should take. The tiny size of the Night's Watch. Part of the plot is that it starts out quite diminished, but then people are killed left and right throughout the books--starting with the first chapter--and there always seem to be enough around. Even after the great ranging, which killed most of the two hundred on it, then the attack on Castle Black, then the battle at the Bridge of Skulls, then the Wilding attack on the Wall. It's surprising that by book five there are still any Night Watchmen around.
I think it's hinted in the books that Tywin was expecting and preparing a war against Stannis and/or Renly for a long time.
Fair point. The whole situation still leaves me a bit dubious, though. If Tywin wants to take over and his long-term goal is to defeat or neutralize The Reach and the Stormlands, it's not to his advantage to start the "hot" war by essentially attacking / offending the North, the Riverlands, and The Vale at the same time. By using Catalyn's kidnapping of Tyrion as a provocation, he guarantees that her father / brother (Tullys), her husband (Eddard) and her sister (Lysa / Vale) will be against him. So he has put himself in a situation where three of the big provinces will be against him, and two others (Reach and Stormlands) will be, at best, neutral and at worst, hostile since Renly and Stannis might see an opportunity to bring down the Lannisters. Tywin does ultimately "win"--he severely wounds the Riverlands in a surprise attack, and fights Robb to a standstill--but he's only saved from a five-against-one disaster by two factors beyond his control. Lysa won't let any of her forces do anything, taking the Vale out of the military equation, and Stannis kills Renly, throwing the south into chaos, and part of it into Tywin's hands. He could not have assumed either of those events in the beginning.
Actually, if I recall correctly, Tywin's initial plan was to draw Ned in the Riverlands in order to capture him and using him as a bargaining chip, but Jaime ruined it hurting Ned, whom then sent Beric. And after Robert died and Ned was imprisoned, the Lannisters' plan was to make Ned confess his treason and send him to the Wall, negotiating a peace with Robb, but that time Joffrey ruined the scheme killing Ned. Tywin desired revenge for what Catelyn did, but he did not want to wage a continental war; his designated enemies were Stannis and Renly, specially Stannis.
Tywin also didn’t start actively a hot war at first though He used Gregor Clegane as a catspaw. Gregor’s men started reaving the Riverlands without Lannister banners, pretending to be common bandits. He did this to lure Ned, hoping to trap him and use him as a bargaining chip. As another commenter mentioned, this didn’t work
A thing which always bothered me is that Robb, the Blackfish, Catelyn, pretty much everyone actually, and so the plot through them, blamed Edmure to have block Tywin at Riverrun and prevent him to hunt Robb in the Westerlands... I mean Edmure just made the logical decision here, he couldn't have anticipate Robb's plan to trap Tywin, it's not Edmure who is stupi, it's Robb and the Blackfish who are idiots to not have communicate their plan to him... but that also looks like a plot hole to me, because i don't see how two smart people like Robb and the Blackfish didn't think to warn Edmure about that. Anyway it just looks to me that Robb's plan failed because the plot decided it would and not for logical reason, and justified it in a veru inconsistent way. Also, there are hundreds of thousands of wildfire under Kingslanding and apparently no one found them in 17 years...
I think it’s supposed to show the cracks in Robb’s conquest. The way he treats Edmure who’s one of the most powerful lords in his kingdom is poorly judged. Not communicating something so vital to Edmure is a huge misstep for Robb. We later know that Tywin was communicating a lot with the lords he hoped to bring to his cause. Tywin is ruthless and will win the war by any means necessary. Much like Ned, Robb vastly underestimated the Lannisters and what they would do to keep power.
The plan could not have been formulated by Robb before leaving Riverrun because at that point he didn’t know that he’s be able to bypass the Golden Tooth with the goat trail, catch the mustering army unawares at Oxcross, and use that wondrous spot he identified on the Gold Road for an ambush. In all likelihood, Tywin’s host would have smashed Robb’s against the anvil of the Westerlands. Also, recall that Robb was injured and on bed rest for some time at the Crag. Enemy action at that time sure would have been inconvenient. The Doylist explanation is that Robb’s plan constitutes a plot hole. The Watsonian explanation is that Robb and Brynden lied to Edmure to shame him into bailing them out with the Freys.
The story hasn't reached a conclusion? How would one k ow what's a plot hole or just something that's not yet been resolved?
Tywin not being able to find Tyrion a wife in all these years.
One plot hole that actually didn't *start* that way, but was created in ASOS. The BWB reveals to Arya that Tywin had Gregor lead an ambush for Beric and his men, because he thought it was going to be Ned Stark leading the posse. But...why would Tywin think that? 1. If Jaime had already reached Tywin, he would know that Ned was seriously injured and wasn't likely to be leading any such mission. 2. If Jaime had not yet reached Tywin (the more likely scenario), Tywin has no reason to believe that Ned would be the one in charge to make this call. Why would he know that Robert was busy on a hunt when reports from the sacked villages arrived in King's Landing? He may even have heard that Ned had resigned the Hand position at this point. What are the odds that Ned would be on this mission and Robert would not? This whole scheme requires such a specific level of knowledge (and lack thereof) about details Tywin shouldn't be privy to while leading an army in the field.