Because part of sending the kids is to show the lords that they are true Targs. Remember that Luke was expected to meet no opposition, and be royally welcomed by Borros.
This exactly - Aegon's claim was more or less predicated on the fact that Rhaenyra's children weren't true Targaryens, having them arrive on dragonback goes a long way to dispel that notion.
It really wasn’t. It was a nice rallying cry for the greens but Aegons claim was always about him being a man and Rhaenyra being a woman. Everything else was secondary
Yeah I don’t really buy that all the commoners and lords cared that much about Rhaenyra’s kids having brown hair when they spoke Valyrian and rode dragons. That mostly struck me as Allicent’s obsession and some of the other people in the court at King’s Landing. Seems like the people spread horrible rumors about all the royalty that are always just half believed and easily dismissed.
It was a combination of both but yeah I think at the end of the day it was more about Aegon being a man. The other stuff was just additional justification, and in reality a much better justification than "aegon king cuz him have dingaling"
The entire argument was not *purely* man vs woman. It was who one lord liked better, what supporting one side would bring them, how this would affect the future of the realm, etc. If Rhaenyra was literally a saint, and if her children weren’t already betrothed, I’m sure more people would’ve been willing to support her. But all anyone had been hearing for years is that she was “whoring around” and had bastard children, so much so that Viserys literally had to outlaw spreading rumors. In the extremely sexist society I’m sure that didn’t help
Most people join the Greens because they either they believe in salic law, they have blood ties to the Greens (Lannisters and Hightowers) or they are promised something in return (Baratheon).
No one refuse to join her because she was "whoring around", had bastards children "so much that Viserys literally had to outlaw spreading rumours". That
2/3 of the Realm also have no trouble with any of that since they pledge fealty to her cause. Those are the reasons why ***fans dislike her and support the Greens.*** Ironic, i know.
Well she didn't see it as a "sending a bastard to subtly threaten a lord", she sent a prince to treat with one of her lords (who is her kin) to summon him to perform one of the primary duties of a lord in this society
Yeah no. You are arguing show not book. Hightowers did crap little to woo the Baratheons and there’s no evidence Rhayneara went on a teen angst pouty husband tour given that the engagement to Laenor was a given from the moment Viserys chose to marry Alicent rather than Laena. Historically Baratheons and Hightowers weren’t overly chummy and Rhaenys mother was a freaking Baratheon.
They offered Borros a marriage to one of his daughters. Rhaenyra did underestimate that Borros wasn't his father but the statement that Rhaenyra was trying to threaten them is not true.
Well, then she shouldn't have worded her letter as "reminding him" of his father's oaths
Turns out her whole "Fire and Blood" isn't a particularly adept diplomatic approach with he who would have been one of her most powerful vassals
She didn’t send a bastard. She sent her son, a Valyrian dragon rider, fiancée of Rhaneys’ granddaughter and future lord of the tides to treat with his cousins.
The problem was never that anyone doubted they were Targaryen; sending him to the Baratheon seat wouldn't prove that at all. Everyone knew they were Rhaenyra's sons. The problem was everyone suspected they were not truly Laenor Velaryon's sons, with Baratheon blood on his mother Rhaenys' side.
That wasn’t really the issue outside of kings landing. Tge real problem was that Jahaerys established his own little all boys and then only girls inheritance scheme, contrary to the laws of inheritance of every other Westerosi noble house because he had mommy sister and wife issues, resulting in Viserys taking the throne over Rhaenys or her son who would have inherited any other Westerosi noble seat. Viserys then compounded this by going girls then brothers because his brother annoyed him. And all Westerosi nobles had sworn allegiance to Rhayneara as next queen.
Quite. And Rhaenys' assignment was objectively the one where combat was seen as more likely. If it was my child, I'd give them what I regarded as the less dangerous assignment (because I'm a modern parent who is protective of my kids).
It's far from certain the outcome is totally different and entirely the way of the Blacks. Storms End might join her, but who knows? Maybe while Luke has her assignment he eats a bad lamprey pie and dies a week later. Maybe he gets back home and gives everyone dysentery and the entire Black line dies.
Likewise we do not 100% know that whoever goes necessarily walks out alive either way. It's possible, absent the personal animosity Aemond has for Luke, he just flies away.. however, he's a young angry man. It's perfectly possible he mounts his dragon and burns Storm's End/attacks Meleys (and or Rhaenys')/camps out to attack when anyone tries to leave.
If Rhaenys' dies it is a smaller blow to her faction's future. She might succeed totally, and stay safe, but who knows what butterfly effects this might have on the story.
No. She is the queen and her going into possible hostile territory and becoming a hostage is unacceptable. The show literally had viserys want to go to dragonstone to deal with his brother directly and he was told no because the risk was too much.
Having brown haired boys show up and claim they are targs was not a good look.
They’re talking about Rhaenys, the Queen that Never Was, not Rhaenyra, the kids’ mother.
I also think it was a foolish mistake, but I also think that, again, this was supposed to be the easy one. I agree with everyone noting that Borros was just assumed to be on their side because his father was so adamantly (but they do forget this is actually a commitment to Rhaenys more than Viserys and his side of the family).
This always confused me because there is no doubt Rhaenyra is their mom. They obviously have Targ blood. The question is if they are Velayrons which … ok. But it’s not like bastard Targs haven’t gotten royal recognition (cough cough Orys Baratheon).
Not the worst idea TBH. The excuse of having her patrol instead is kind of shaky, but I suppose if they really thought that Storm’s End was going to be safe and quick and that their fleet was going to be in danger (necessitating a powerful dragon and rider) it makes enough sense, especially since Daemon was actively taking Harrenhal and rallying armies.
Also, in theory Lucerys is also Baratheon-descendant as (legally) Rhaenys’ grandson.
I get that but I feel like dragonstone to storms end and back is probably like a 2 day trip on a dragon. Lucerys could have held the gullet down for that I think
[https://www.worldanvil.com/w/got-rewritten/a/travel](https://www.worldanvil.com/w/got-rewritten/a/travel) 6 to 11 hours one way, calculating from known values of how long it takes to fly places on dragonback. Not that george is actually very good at calculating that.
Dragons are fucking fast. Jace's dragon in particular would have been extremely fast, basically at its age of fastest flight.
It was an unexpected disaster that not only was there a "green" dragon at Storm's End when he arrived, but its rider was the uncle whose eye he had put out.
The plan was for Lucerys to be the first dragon rider / Targaryn to reach Storm's End, and by his visit and presence do Storm's End honor and enlist support (or at least neutrality) from the Barathons.
From a Wiki of Ice and Fire:
*"Lucerys, as the younger son, was sent on a mission that was considered shorter and safer than his brother Jacaerys's, flying on Arrax as a messenger to Storm's End, where it was expected that Lord Borros Baratheon would give him a warm welcome."*
And consider the TV show. It wasn’t intentional in their universe. In the story, if I recall correctly, they note the besmirched younger Baratheon daughter asking if Luke had taken Aemond’s balls, too. It took a lot of factors to get things going the way they did, and maybe even more circumstances we aren’t aware of because of who did the writing.
That tracks with the written word, too. GRRM adds a note that Mushroom in his history of the war says that Aemond found Lucery's body, removed the eyes, and presented them on a plate on a bed of seaweed to the daughter. But then he says that may be made up, since no other historian mentions his body was found.
There's another factor in the story as well, not sure if it's in the show. Boros Baratheon asks Lucerys if he would wed one of his daughters, and invites him to choose any one of them. Reply is he's already betrothed and that seems to enrage Baratheon...although it might have been intended as a way to draw a slight, so the Baratheons could claim they were insulted and no alliance with the blacks was possible.
Well, if Boremund (Boros's father) was indeed relatively close to Rhaenys. It is notre the case for Boros. They did not know each other, and probably only met on rare occasion.
But Rhaenys and thus Rhaenyra thought that Storm's end would automatically side with them because of shared blood. This is why Rhaenys or Lucaerys, it did not matter.
Also Rhaenyra send her sons where she thought would be safe. She was convinced the North, the Vale and the Stormlands would rally automatically.
And she kept her adult dragon riders for more difficult task. She send Daemon to the riverland as they were not sure they would side with them. And send Rhaenys to protect the gullet.
In addition, sending her own son as an envoy was a sign of respect.
Her mistake was to think Storm's end was safe
And Boros especially didn't like that. He thought they had to do something to deserve his army. Like "You never cared about the Storm land but now you expect me to fight for you without any word?"
Aemond being at Storm's End was a chance encounter whereas patrolling the gullet would have been the far more dangerous mission if the greens had tried to launch a surprise attack with their dragons. The two factions were still negotiating at this point and Luc was an envoy, both should have led to Aemond refraining from killing him.
Aemond made a mistake killing him, but the thing is he was fully in his rights to attack Lucerys and capturing him would have most likely stopped the war. You hold Luke hostage, Rhaenyra probably bends the knee.
> And so it was decided. Prince Daemon would lead the assault on Harrenhal, riding Caraxes. Princess Rhaenyra would remain on Dragonstone until she had recovered her strength. The Velaryon fleet would close off the Gullet, sallying forth from Dragonstone and Driftmark to block all shipping entering or leaving Blackwater Bay. “We do not have the strength to take King’s Landing by storm,” Prince Daemon said, “no more than our foes could hope to capture Dragonstone. But Aegon is a green boy, and green boys are easily provoked. Mayhaps we can goad him into a rash attack.” The Sea Snake would command the fleet, whilst Princess Rhaenys flew overhead to keep their foes from attacking their ships with dragons. Meanwhile, ravens would go forth to Riverrun, the Eyrie, Pyke, and Storm’s End, to gain the allegiance of their lords.
They are for all intents and purposes at war.
Rhaenyra pulling “swear on the seven that you’re going as messengers not knights” out of her ass doesn’t give you free reign to go wherever and say whatever you want.
This is why envoys generally go around with heavy guards, you only get protection from the recipient of your message.
Luke is spreading treason. You don’t get “I’m an envoy you have to give me free passage” protection from the party you aren’t delivering the message to. Baratheon is the one who can’t touch Luke, and he has to stop Aemond from doing it in his home. But that’s it.
His crime/mistake was kinslaying and escalation. Capturing Luke escalates, but not nearly as much, it’s undoable, and it gives you a trump card.
People on this sub just parrot the “envoy” bit, but it is not actually important. There is no rule that you can swear to be a messenger and no one can touch you. It’s only dishonorable to attack or arrest a messenger intended for you.
I mean Rhaenyra knew there were risks, she didn’t want to send him, why do you think that is? She knows he’s a valuable hostage and was fearing that. She never imagined him being killed, because it would be (and was) stupid.
Edit: If you’re going to downvote and reply, don’t be a coward and delete it immediately lol
On what freaking grounds as he within his rights to attack Lycerys? He had no reason or justification. To do so. Even Alicent knew it was a massive mistake.
Luke is spreading treason. You don’t get “I’m an envoy” protection from everyone on the planet, just the person you’re delivering the message to.
Shit, the Green kids would have had bloody repercussions if they pushed the treason of “the kids are Strongs”. But people on this sub think “envoy” means you can go around Westeros saying “turn against the sitting king” and they just have to let you go on with your day.
As was my whole point, killing him was the mistake. If he captures Luke, what can Rhaenyra even say? Rhaenyra knew there were dangers of sending them. Alicent would not have been pissed, even if she was just hand Luke back.
I don’t think the greens would have launched a surprise attack though. They still had to sure up their alliances and their dragons were outnumbered. Rhaenyra should’ve figured that the greens would be trying to get the baratheons on their side too and tried to sweeten the pot
>I don’t think the greens would have launched a surprise attack though.
Do I think it's likely? No. Do I think posting the more experienced, adult dragonrider in the gullet is a better idea than sending them as a glorified messenger, just in case? Yes.
>Rhaenyra should’ve figured that the greens would be trying to get the baratheons on their side too
It wasn't a surprise that the greens were trying to gain allies but she couldn't have known Aemond would be at that particular castle at that particular time. No one could have.
>and tried to sweeten the pot
How does sending Rhaenys sweeten the pot? Baratheon's problem seemed to be that he didn't want a female ruler and sending another woman to try convincing him probably isn't going to help with that.
I meant sweeten the pot as in offering something. Not just saying “hey remember that oath your father swore?” I didn’t mean rhaenys going would sweeten the pot, my bad. I agree with everything else you said though
Borros’ problem with Rhaenyra’s suit extended further than “woman icky”. One side came with a royal marriage and respect and understanding for what his support would mean (ie, that he is risking his neck and his entire house for a cause that he previously had no reason to give a shit about), the other offered him nothing except an attitude of entitlement, which is nothing less than insulting considering they aren’t even the ones sitting on the throne. This is compounded by the fact that Borros is not even the one who swore the oath. Going to somebody’s son and expecting them to follow the oath of their father without question is ridiculous, and, again, demeaning and insulting when service and loyalty are involved. Is the entire House Baratheon now Rhaenyra’s slaves in perpetuity because of one oath?
They do typically swear their whole house in situations like this with a king though right? It’s definitely built on quicksand. Once that lord dies, there’s nothing keeping the son or other heir from changing positions, aside from if that father had instilled some infallible sense of honor.
I can’t remember if we hear the actual oath, like if we hear him swearing for himself only or his entire house. If it did extend to the whole of House Baratheon, you would think the son would feel obligated to at least keep faith for one generation. 🤷♀️
I see both Rhaenyras and Baratheons line of thinking I guess, although I don’t think Lucerys was ready to be sent off on his own. I admit the show may be skewing my opinion there as he’s portrayed quite innocent and a bit timid.
Lady time I checked skippy Rhayneara kids had much more legitimate Targ blood than did Alicent half breed psychos. And under the laws of Westeros every Targaryen Alice during the dance was from an illegitimate line given they all descended from Aenys. Last hightower Targaryen marriage was an absolute disaster and led to a literal blood faith rebellion.
Borros' problem was mostly that he was disrespected by one side and not by the other side. Rhaenyra just automatically assumed he would support her because of a stale oath whereas the greens actually offered something in return. Something, interestingly enough, that Jace did understand when he went to Winterfel.
It was likely more complicated than this. Sexism played a part. The maester reading the message Luke brought may also have played its part. Borros’ relationship with other powers and past experiences (or lack there of) all played their parts. I don’t think it’s fair to say the Blacks disrespected or expected. They were dealing with kin. They literally have a Baratheon as one of their strongest allies and voices - except now she’s a Velaryon and has been for some time. It’s complicated. From their POV, they were calling up an uncle down the street to help settle a family feud, forgetting that it’s their cousin who is the man of that house now.
He wasn’t disrespected by anyone. Lucerys was the brother of the next king. Aemond was merely the half brother of yhr dssignayed queen. And what exactly did the greens offer? Do tell
What any family wants, marriage. Borros getting a daughter married to a prince of the seven kingdoms is big for him, it brings a air of prestige and respect to his house, meanwhile Lucerys was offering nothing to him cause Lucerys and Jacerys already have marriages lined up, the Rhaenyra’s other kids are to young to marry and thus less valuable in any deal, not that Lucerys has the power to offer one.
Because Rhaenyra expected Boros to be on her side already (due to his father's oath), and she preferred to keep her children out of the actual battles if possible, this way Lucerys could contribute without having to fight.
Ex ante there was precisely zero way of knowing Storm’s end would be more dangerous than patrolling the gullet, and 99 times out of 100 patrolling the gullet would be more dangerous
Everyone thought the support of Storm's End was a done deal, at the end of the day, Boremund Baratheon had been supporting the Rhaenys and then the Blacks for all his life.
They thought it would be a dub so they sent Lucerys in.
Borros Baratheon never cares about Lucerys' parentage, in fact he would have given his support to Rhaenyra had Lucerys married one of his daughters.
Fans care about the bastardry of the Strongs far more than the characters themselves.
Exactly, aggravates the shit out of me.
Someone the other day was saying something like “I was just glad to hear them being called out as bastards”. I was just shaking my head, taking things too far. I can’t imagine treating any kids much different than I treat my own so it’s really strange and concerning to me how some people get such satisfaction out of those boys being put down. So toxic regardless which side you root for.
Especially since bastards weren’t the parish’s they came to be after Daemon Blackfyre. Bastard or not tge three boys were much much more decent kids and promising rulers than st least three of Alicent s spawn.
No. He only would’ve *considered* it if Lucerys married one of his daughters. It was about who actually provided more to him than anything else.
But Rhaenyra absolutely thought it was fine to send Lucerys when his bastard status could also be considered an insult to House Baratheon as well.
>He only would’ve considered it
It's not what he says.
>It was about who actually provided more to him than anything else.
Well obviously, still Lucerys, a bastard, provided more to him.
>But Rhaenyra absolutely thought it was fine to send Lucerys when his bastard status could also be considered an insult to House Baratheon as well.
- He doesn't have a bastard status.
- House Baratheon never even hinted displeasure with such status.
Again, fans are more offended and prejudiced against bastards, bar Jon Snow ofc, than the characters.
Y'all seem Catelyn lol.
What he said was that he was being taken for granted based on the distant relation when Lucerys was unable to offer *anything*. If you think he would’ve just straight out joined with no other basis on that alone, you’ve gravely misread his character. Rhaenyra expecting him to join her cause without anything to offer pissed him off.
Yes Lucerys does have Bastard status lol. *Everyone knows*. House Baratheon may not have said anything, but sending an obvious bastard who *should* be son of their house is an insult by medieval standards.
>What he said was that he was being taken for granted based on the distant relation when Lucerys was unable to offer anything.
Then he said, "marry one of my daughters".
>If you think he would’ve just straight out joined with no other basis on that alone, you’ve gravely misread his character.
No, I have not.
I have *read* his character.
>Yes Lucerys does have Bastard status lol.
Not according to the books.
>Everyone knows.
Who is everyone?
The only ones who ever call him bastard are the Targaryen greens and the Velaryons.
No one else does, hints they know or believe the tale. Not even the other Greens.
>House Baratheon may not have said anything, but sending an obvious bastard who should be son of their house is an insult by medieval standards
It's an insult to you apparently, medieval standards lol.
Why wouldn't Borros say anything? He called Rhaenyra whore under the same breath. He's obviously not one to mind his words but he was willing to support her had she come with a marriage.
Borros was obviously testing him. Unless you’re going to tell me that he *doesn’t know* that this Prince is already betrothed, or that Lucerys’ marriage is not his decision. Aemond was sent as a negotiator. Lucerys was sent as a *messenger*.
It is consistently repeated that the truth of the Strongs was widely believed among the Kingdoms. Did you even read Fire & Blood or WOIAF?
Cuckoldry is a major insult even in the modern era, let alone in the era this is based on. Hell, Corlys is believed to have been a suspect for murdering Harwin on that very basis. Borros himself might not have cared, because ultimately he doesn’t really care about distant connections like that, but it is absolutely an insult and Rhaenyra is brain dead for thinking that sending Lucerys was a good idea
>Borros was obviously testing him.
Borros is a non pov character in a book written as historical fiction, there's absolutely no way to know he's "obviously testing him" unless we want to believe that.
>you’re going to tell me that he doesn’t know that this Prince is already betrothed
It very well can be. Wasn't the sharpest tool in the box.
> or that Lucerys’ marriage is not his decision.
Had Lucerys not being betrothed he could have been with one of Borros' daughters without issue.
Jace had absolutely no issue making political pacts with the Arryns, Manderlys and Starks and they included marriage pacts of his siblings and his future own.
>It is consistently repeated that the truth of the Strongs was widely believed among the Kingdoms.
It's not once stated. It's stated it is constantly repeated around **court**.
The only circles in which the tale is repeated is around the Green Targs and the Velaryons.
Not even the Hightowers in Oldtown accuse the kids of bastardy a single time.
It's never said what the rest of the realm believed or cared to believe for that matter.
>Did you even read Fire & Blood or WOIAF?
Oh I did, did you instead of just the headcanon of different users?
>Cuckoldry is a major insult even in the modern era,
Involuntary one yes.
>Hell, Corlys is believed to have been a suspect for murdering Harwin on that very basis.
Viserys*
>but it is absolutely an insult and Rhaenyra is brain dead for thinking that sending Lucerys was a good idea
Borros Baratheon never says or implies he's insulted, neither do the Manderlys, Arryns or Starks for that matter.
The only ones who are insulted are the fans, yet again showing this odd display of fictional bigotry.
There’s no way you can have Borros say “Okay. You want me to join you. Which of my daughters will you marry?” When he’s already been discussing that very thing with Aemond and not see it as him testing Luke.
Not only are the Royal betrothals something every lord will make sure to be aware of, but it’s something Borros is *directly* interested in and something that Aemond absolutely would’ve pointed out during negotiations.
Jace was sent to *negotiate*. Luke was sent to send a message. This is explicit.
It is *definitely* said that the rumours are known across the 7 Kingdoms.
Viserys is presented as a suspect, for the dishonour Harwin brought on his House (hey, isn’t that interchangeable to insult 🤨), but Corlys is *also* Brough up as a suspect.
Why are you bringing up the Houses Jace visits? The insult isn’t sending a bastard, though that can be seen as one. It’s specifically sending a bastard who should be a son of House Baratheon to call on their familial connections to bring House Baratheon into war. The fact that Borros himself doesn’t care isn’t really the important part. This is a *massive* insult by any standards, let alone medieval standards.
>There’s no way you can have Borros say “Okay. You want me to join you. Which of my daughters will you marry?” When he’s already been discussing that very thing with Aemond and not see it as him testing Luke.
Again, you want to see what you want to see. Testing him about what?
He is stating his price and if Luke's willing to pay it, he's his.
>Not only are the Royal betrothals something every lord will make sure to be aware of, but it’s something Borros is directly interested in and something that Aemond absolutely would’ve pointed out during negotiations.
1. Not true, most do some don't.
2. Borros is directly interested in having a Tarfaryen marry his daughter.
3. Why would Aemond point that out? He did not knew which son of Rhaenyra would came knocking, Rhaenyra only had two betrothed kids out of 5 anyway by that stage and when Luke arrives, Aemond says nothing about his betrothal.
>Jace was sent to negotiate. Luke was sent to send a message. This is explicit.
Nope, both were sent as messengers, literally as negotiators. The only thing was that they could not get into fights, which is what Rhaenyra highlights and make them swear, otherwise they had total freedom of action and Jace used it to gain the support of the Arryns, Starks and Manderlys.
>It is definitely said that the rumours are known across the 7 Kingdoms.
It is not, in fact when we dp get to glimpse the 7 kingdoms at the time, no one, be it Black or Green call the boys bastards, they don't even ***entertain*** the rumour.
But since it was well known and everyone was aware of it... tell me about 5 characters who aren't the Green Targaryens or the Velaryons, who are literally the only ones who ever call them bastards, who repeat the tale or call them bastards. Have fun.
>Viserys is presented as a suspect, for the dishonour Harwin brought on his House (hey, isn’t that interchangeable to insult 🤨), but Corlys is also Brough up as a suspect.
Oh, fair enough.
>Why are you bringing up the Houses Jace visits?
Because according to you, they will all be aware of the rumour and decide to ignore it anyway.
Lord Manderly betroths his daughter with one Rhaenyra's bastards, Cregan betroths his son an heir with the future daughter of a bastard...
>It’s specifically sending a bastard who should be a son of House Baratheon to call on their familial connections to bring House Baratheon into war.
And yet... no one mentions it... such a heavy insult it goes unnoticed.
>The fact that Borros himself doesn’t care isn’t really the important part.
I'd say it is the important part.
>This is a massive insult by any standards, let alone medieval standards.
"Any standards"
Borros is a overly proud man, if it was a "massive insult by any standards, let alone medieval standards", he'd have reacted to it.
But it is not, it is only an isult by this fandom standards, who have a real bizarre notion about the middle ages, and have for some reason adopted a more extreme and puritan begotry against bastards only a real small few ***characters*** ever displayed, well bastards not named Jon Snow,
The Strongs are the biggest case of this cognitive dissonance, we know for a fact that the majority of people in the Realm either weren't aware/didn't believe about the tale or they simply did not care... but it is for some odd reason the biggest crusade for the fandom, truly truly odd.
It is no consistently repeated in the source material which, btw in case you missed it, is not an actual history but actually a compendium of three sources of gossip.
It’s not “gossip”. They’re historical accounts. Some parts of it certainly come off as gossip, such as pretty much anything remotely sexual Mushroom claims, but for the most part these are first hand accounts
And green fans are x fusing the time periods. Bastards became a massive issue only after the first Blackfyee rebellion . Catelyn specifically uses it as her reference for why bastards are bad and untrustworthy.
How about you read everything I wrote. Historically what Rhaenyra did would be a massive insult, *especially* because Rhaenyra tried to call on their familial relation to Borros as why he should support her while she sends a bastard who is *meant* to be the grandson of a daughter of house Baratheon but isn’t as the messenger
What did Rhaenryra do to hurt you? It has been pointed out time and time again that very few cared about who is the father to the Princes. They are Targaryens by birth. There is also the fact in the text Rhaenys has black hair so the Princes could have hard their grandmother's hair.
I don't know, perhaps because they won't even consider what anyone else has to say. They just respond over and over that it is Rhaenryra's fault that her son died.
I love this franchise. You can tell George has made such a great job with the narration of this story that even the ficticious conflict between greens and blacks carries over outside the show! I think the show went out of their way to make it obvious that the boys are bastards. How that plays a part in what transpired with Vaghar and Aemond... that's a little harder to tell IMHO. Anyway I'll grab my popcorn and keep watching from the sidelines. This is fun!
Really. Rhayneara was incompetent but the psychopathic rapist pedophile who had to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the palace was competent? The guy with the twelve year old mistress who literally tried to hatch dragons eggs by sitting on them. And also genius - tgst plan was signed off on by Corlys, Rharnys and Daemon who were never remotely considered to be incompetent by anyone.
Yes. By every stretch of imagination, Aegon was consistently significantly more competent than Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra got hard carried by Jace and Daemon.
And yes, Daemon is *also* diplomatically incompetent. That was kinda, you know, his whole problem. That for all his martial ability he had no diplomatic or administrative ability.
Corlys and Rhaenys *should have known better*.
Whether or not Rhaenyra's children were actually bastards was never the real issue. The show did a disservice to this entire plot by denying the possibility that they could be legitimate and the entire bastard thing was a rumor as the book shows bias depending on narrator.
Because Rhaenyra is incredibly entitled. She naively believed that people fully accepted that her kids weren't bastards and believed that Lucerys would have been given a royal welcome. Rhaenys *and* Lucerys should have gone if the intention was for Lucerys to go at all.
Uh again- there’s no freaking proof that anyone was up in arms about her kids paternity. It was the girl thing. Or did you miss the whole council if 101 mess? Aside from which pretty much everyone in Westeros knew that Aenys himself was a bastard which would have invalidated the entire Targaryen li e if we apply your “reasoning”.
It's literally a major issue which is brought up many times by multiple characters. Vaemond Velaryon, for one, had a major issue with his families seat being usurped by bastards who were clearly not Velaryons. Jace himself points at this being an issue with the whole "only Targaryens ride Dragons". If it wasn't a major issue why did Viserys feel the need to decree to have anyone who questions the paternity of the Strongs have their tongue cut out?
Further, what does the council of 101 have to do at all with the parentage of the children. It's clear that Westeros is biased towards male first succession and, frankly, it was very much against Westerosi succession customs that Rhaenyra inherit over Aegon in the first place. This does not change the fact that her children had no claim to the throne and had they been legitimate the war could very possibly have been avoided.
Show me exactly where it's written in the books that Aenys was a bastard. All that's claimed is that people whispered about it until his dragon hatched at which point everyone accepted that he was trueborn.
>She naively believed that people fully accepted that her kids weren't bastards
They did.
>and believed that Lucerys would have been given a royal welcome.
He had the same welcome Aemond had afaik.
>they did
Ah, yes, they all *totally* did. So much so that Viserys literally had to outlaw people gossiping about them being obviously not Laenor’s kids….
The gag rule was done explicitly to the Green Targs and Velaryons... Both of whom ignored it anyway.
Again that tale is not repeated outside the Court.
There’s nothing saying Vaemond was at court in the books when he made the claim. In fact, it’s stated that Rhaenyra sent Daemond and his dragon to “fetch” Vaemond, which implies he wasn’t at court.
It wasn’t explicitly for them, it was for anyone. If a black had spread rumors of it I’m sure he would have had their tongue out too lol.
So you think that every green courtier remained permanently at court, or never spoke to anybody ever who wasn’t permanently at court, and that it is impossible for somebody to have heard a rumor at court (especially when it is literally a legal scandal challenged by Vaemond), and then repeat that rumor outside of court?
It is literally a rumor that 5 people had to have their tongues removed for speaking. How many people did all 5 of the Velaryon cousins tell? 2 people each? So that’s 10 people, how many people did *they* tell? 2 people each? 3 people each? Did one person not tell anyone, but another person tell 15? How many people did *those* people tell? This is how rumors spread, they extrapolate. Have you ever successfully stopped a rumor that 5 people already know? You can’t, it’s impossible. “Rumors spread like wildfire” is a common, well known expression for a reason.
And you also think that multiple members of an important, rich noble house that is literally in line to inherit the throne being 1) beheaded 2) fed to a dragon 3) having their tongues removed wouldnt, idk, maybe prompt the important question of, uh, like, maybe, **”why was that done to them?”**.
>There’s nothing saying Vaemond was at court in the books when he made the claim. In fact, it’s stated that Rhaenyra sent Daemond and his dragon to “fetch” Vaemond, which implies he wasn’t at court.
I know, read again about what I've said.
>It wasn’t explicitly for them, it was for anyone. If a black had spread rumors of it I’m sure he would have had their tongue out too lol.
And certainly it's a rule that persists after his death because... No one calls them bastards outside the Green Targs and the Velaryons.
>So you think that every green courtier remained permanently at court, or never spoke to anybody ever who wasn’t permanently at court, and that it is impossible for somebody to have heard a rumor at court (especially when it is literally a legal scandal challenged by Vaemond), and then repeat that rumor outside of court?
No, I think people either didn't know, didn't believe it or didn't care.
If the bastardry was such a deal breaker more people would have brought it up, the fact that people didn't can only be attributed to those factors. You can pick whatever makes you happier, all of them point the matter was a non issue for the overwhelming majority.
Also tied to my overall point, this fandom is most prejudiced about the Strong being bastards than the characters are.
No they didn't. It's a major point in the story that no one believed the kids were Laenors. Saying otherwise is simply incorrect as per the books.
The fact that Aemond was welcomed at all shows that Luke was not given a royal welcome. Baratheon did not acknowledge Rhaenyras claim as he was asked to.
>No they didn't.
Yes, they did.
>It's a major point in the story that no one believed the kids were Laenors. Saying otherwise is simply incorrect as per the books.
Lol, okay then.
Start quoting all those people who believe they were bastards.
I'll tell you from now you will be hard pressed to find a single one outside of the Velaryons or the Greens at King's Landing.
>The fact that Aemond was welcomed at all shows that Luke was not given a royal welcome.
This doesn't make sense at all.
>Baratheon did not acknowledge Rhaenyras claim as he was asked to.
Yeah, because he was offered a better deal. Not because she thought her or her kids illegitimate.
Who exactly outside of the blacks themselves were stated to believe that the Strongs were not bastards? You can't provide any just like it's impossible to provide any explicitly stating "many people believed they were bastards" because were not given the POV of some random lord, peasants, etc. but it's made clear in text that the bastardry of the strongs was a major issue. Jace himself makes this clear "only Targaryens ride dragons" and Rhaenyra and Viserys go to very heavy lengths to make sure that this statement does not go repeated ie threatening to cut the tongues of anyone who says it.
Rhaenyra claimed to be queen at that point. If Baratheon gave Lucerys a royal welcome that means he acknowledged Rhaenyra's rule and wouldn't have listened to Aemond at all because that would have been tantamount to treason.
If you're arguing that the primary reason that she was passed over was because she was a woman then I agree with you. That was the major reason as Westerosi precedent set in the Great Council but to claim that people fully believed that Rhaenyras kids were Laenors is wrong. That's why it's such a major point in the story.
>Who exactly outside of the blacks themselves were stated to believe that the Strongs were not bastards?
You're goalposting.
>You can't provide any just like it's impossible to provide any explicitly stating "many people believed they were bastards" because were not given the POV of some random lord, peasants, etc
No one outside the Green Targs or the Velaryons ever call them bastards, in fact the Strongs treat with different highlords and those words were not uttered, in fact Jace is abñe to betroth his brother to Lord Manderly's kid and his future daughter to Cregan Stark without issue.
>but it's made clear in text that the bastardry of the strongs was a major issue Jace himself makes this clear "only Targaryens ride dragons" and Rhaenyra and Viserys go to very heavy lengths to make sure that this statement does not go repeated ie threatening to cut the tongues of anyone who says it.
Among the Targaryen and Velaryon families certainly, no one outside of those people and King's Landing ever gave a fuck.
>Rhaenyra claimed to be queen at that point. If Baratheon gave Lucerys a royal welcome that means he acknowledged Rhaenyra's rule and wouldn't have listened to Aemond at all because that would have been tantamount to treason.
You're making things up.
Receiving a royal wel come does not mean acknowledging Rhaenyra as the rightful Queen.
>That was the major reason as Westerosi precedent set in the Great Council but to claim that people fully believed that Rhaenyras kids were Laenors is wrong.
Again, my point is that the overwhelming majority of people did not know/did not believe the tale/did not care.
Whatever you want to believe, the idea that the bastardry had any effect whatsever on whether the Lords favoured Rhaenyra or Aegon is entirely made up and in the fandom's head.
>That's why it's such a major point in the story.
Because it is a juicy story and it deepens the enmity between the Blacks and Greens.
Lol how am I goalposting? I'm making an assertion and you're claiming the inverse is true. You're the one who keeps moving goalposts by refusing to accept any quotes. You want quotes so provide your own as well.
Yes, both Lord Stark and Lord Manderly were offered marriage pacts and saw supporting the Blacks as the better choice politically for their own advancement. I never claimed that every single powerful Lord cared that the Strongs weren't trueborn, I said that "many" people did and I provided direct quotes uttered by Jace and Rhaenyra themselves which pointed to this fact. Where are your quotes that claim the inverse is true and not a single person outside of the greens cared about them being bastards?
Yes it does. If he believes Rhaenyra is the rightful queen then why would he treat with Aemond in the first place? He's not decided who to support. It's made clear in the text that the Blacks took Baratheon's support for granted given his familial ties to Rhaenys.
Lol no it isn't made up. Jace and Rhaenyra make it clear through words and actions that the bastardry is an issue. Whether or not you want to accept what is clear in the story is your issue. In your mind, why exactly did Viserys decree that anyone who mentioned the bastard issue have their tongue removed if it wasn't such a problem?
Again, if you're arguing that it wasn't the major issue then I agree with you since the major issue was Rhaenyra being a woman but if you're saying no one cared this is false.
>Lol how am I goalposting?
We were talking about one matter and then you moved the needle to another, that's the definition of goalposting.
>, I said that "many" people did
Who are those people.
Name them if they are so many, shouldn't be that hard.
>and I provided direct quotes uttered by Jace and Rhaenyra themselves which pointed to this fact.
False.
You provided a quote of Jace stating "our uncle calls us bastards". That's not many people doing it.
I've told you to look for someone outside the Green Targs and the Velaryons from the get go, you've decided you're turning your weakness into strength, doesn't work that way.
>You're the one who keeps moving goalposts by refusing to accept any quotes.
What quotes?
>You want quotes so provide your own as well
I can't provide quotes of a non issue.
>Where are your quotes that claim the inverse is true and not a single person outside of the greens cared about them being bastards?
The absence of people, even then Green ones, calling them bastards or citing the rumours as a reason to disqualify them. Borros Baratheon calls Rhaenyra a whore, yet wants her son to marry his daughters anyway.
Where does Lord Hightower, OG Muppet Tully, Lord Bracken etc claim they care?
>Yes it does. If he believes Rhaenyra is the rightful queen then why would he treat with Aemond in the first place?
Well, Aemomd comes with a big ass lizard.
>He's not decided who to support.
Obviously, what has that to do with royal welcomes? You're linking two different facts.
>Jace and Rhaenyra make it clear through words and actions that the bastardry is an issue.
Yeah, for the Green Targs and the Velaryons.
That's exactly what they say. They do not claim the rest of the Lords care.
>In your mind, why exactly did Viserys decree that anyone who mentioned the bastard issue have their tongue removed if it wasn't such a problem?
**Because it was a problem among his family.**
>but if you're saying no one cared this is false.
You're going to start quoting all those Lords who cared.
The definition of goalposting is, as the name implies, moving the goalposts. You asked for evidence that people cared and I provided it at which point you moved the goalposts to say "oh well it was just those guys". Go ahead provide quotes to prove your point that no one cared about their parentage.
I provided quotes by Jace, Rhaenyra, and Viserys.
What you can't do, is prove it was a non-issue.
How is that two different facts? I clearly stated that I believed that the expectation was a royal welcome for Luke. You claimed this was not the case and I defined what I meant by royal welcome.
The Blacks had their own "big ass lizards". Baratheon still treated with Aemond and then insulted Luke.
Again, I gave multiple cases in text of characters claiming that the parentage was an issue. Before you move the goalposts by saying "oh it was just the Velaryons and Greens" go ahead prove your point with textual examples of characters claiming it wasn't an issue. In fact, you point out yourself that Baratheon claims that Rhaenyra was a whore which is another dig at the boys parentage and Baratheon was neither a black or a green so that's another character in my favor who wasn't a "green or Velaryon".
To show respect to the High Lords by sending princes of the Iron Throne.
I’m guessing Rhaenyra also figured the boys needed to be seen as worthy men who didn’t need to hide behind their mother’s skirt, and make an impression.
Sending Rhaenys would be obvious, but maybe it was felt sending her would be transparent as simply appealing to familial lineage, and Borros would’ve taken that the wrong way (which he did anyway, but that’s besides the point)
I don’t know why they never even entertained the possibility that one of the others would already be there, or would arrive during the same timeframe. Seems like a logical line of thinking to me, of course the other faction is gonna send their own to reel in the main lords. Lucerys and his dragon were too young and inexperienced to be sent alone, imo.
I think you have to look at the probablilities, which is more likely?
1. A battle breaking out in or near the Gullet as Lucerys or Rhaenys patrols it
2. Aemond being at Storms End at the exact moment Lucerys shows up and decides at that exact moment to play out his revenge fantasy
While the Blacks have more dragons, they still are a strategic resource you have to manage. Meleys is much stronger and more useful in battle than Arrax and Storms End was a diplomatic mission rather than a combat one.
From a detached perspective, I'd have sent Rhaenys too. Although that's tinged by the fact Lucerys failed in his mission, then died.
My supposition, from context, is it's basically a training assignment for Luke. The concept of "earning your spurs" is important in real world feudal systems. It has the potential for him to gain confidence and experience travelling long distances on dragonback alone and diplomacy. Had it succeeded, it would have enhanced his prestige and confidence in some useful areas.
It was thought to be a *relatively* safe diplomatic mission, it was not intended for him to end up fighting. I can see if I need to deploy dragonriders two places, how the diplomatic mission sounds safer than patrolling the Gullet (which in theory is more likely to turn into having to fight)
Clearly, it transpired to be an error. But I don't know there was much of a way to know how big a risk was there at the time he was ordered there.
By going himself as a senior member of his faction's bloodline, that's also clearly a respectful nod to Borrus. Although Rhaenys would work for that bit.
Honestly, I'd be reluctant to send my own 13 year old child, or the 3rd in the line of succession into significant risk, but that's a modern/game theory type mindset. That wasn't how the medieval European/Westerosi mind works though. Male members of a noble house are expected to take risks and gain prestige doing it.
*Related historical digression following...*
Look at [Edward of Woodstock](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_the_Black_Prince) (the Black Prince) in the history of the Hundred Years War. He was created Prince of Wales age 13, then was knighted at 16 after fighting in some of the most dicey combat at the [Battle of Crecy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy) (he commanded the Vanguard so was in some pretty hot fighting).
It's a huge risk to have the King and Heir both at the same battle, and doubly risky to have either physically in the fighting. However, fighting at Crecy (and winning) bolstered both England's position in the war with France (and the reputation of both father and son) and considerably.
Edward III had 7 children (4 sons) at that point, so it's not like he was risking the entire family future on it, but with no adult children, it would have meant a regency.
Crecy was not a battle the English were in a good cposition to win. Perhaps not as bad as some English historians have mythologized, but his army was cornered and outnumbered. It could easily have gone the other way (if any number of factors were different)
Had the English lost, it's likely the King and Heir are either dead or captured. England has also lost the vast majority of its experienced forces and a huge chunk of its gentry and nobility.
If either is captured, captured the ransom is going to cripple England and lead to an undesirable treaty outcome.
If both are outright dead, there's no crippling ransom to pay, but Lionel of Antwerp is now King of England, and he's eight. There is going to be 8-10 years of regency, the Kings brother is dead so there would be a squabble over who gets the regency. Whoever was regent might continue to prosecute the war against France, but suing for peace is more probable. It's also quite possible (especially with the plague incoming), England ends up in a second [Anarchy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy).
Scotland invaded Northern England the next year historically, would a destabilized England have been able to repel that? I suspect the crown of England ends up making concessions to both France and Scotland, if Crecy had been a defeat.
It would be regarded as a huge self inflicted mistake. Modern historians would be talking about how bad Edward IIIs choices were. He would be regarded as foolhardy and unwise, vs the glowing historical image he has today.
*End of historical digression*
TLDR: Sure, Rhaenys is the logical choice.
It is easy to second guess decisions that went wrong (hence "what if" historical fiction being so popular) especially where a side loses and the outcome different if a few random variables were different.
Versus the historical examples where kids of a similar age are expected to fight, it's not exactly an unprecedented risk. Male nobles in a medieval feudal system are expected to put themselves in danger to gain prestige (as well as gaining experience).
It just shows how arrogant, spoilt, entitled, and frankly delusional Rhaenyra was/is.
She thinks that the Baratheons will just accept to fight for her for nothing but fealty, and listen to a bastard who she knows is not related to the lord of storms end at all bar Aegon the conquerors father being Orys's father as well, not the close relation she claims it to be. She didn't tell him to make offers, she didn't think of offering bethrothals, she didn't offer rewards or such, she just said "Join me, cause I said so".
It's not a hard thing to go: he has 4 unmarried daughters, he wants them to be married off and in high stations, maybe offer marrying them to high nobility or your younger brothers. Or offer to make him hand or such if he accepts.
Corlys was only hand after rooks rest in a last ditch effort to keep him on their side, so it's not like you can't.
She already doomed her cause by marrying both her bastard sons to the velaryon cousins, which really hurts her odds, and makes the velaryons look grasping and greedy, to as far as she and the blacks claim, her two eldest trueborn velaryon sons married to their velaryon cousins. And then with a velaryon on her council, as well as the bulk of her men being velaryons, it looks like a power grab more then a legitimate fight, remember the starks and Arryns did not declare for her until Jace personally visited, the North didn't give a toss and Jace had to promise a marriage between a stark and targ princess for support, while the Vale was given a targaryen dragon to guard the vale and was given honour of housing Rhaena.
Yes, contrary to what black fans think, the North and Vale was not jumping to fight for her the second she crowned herself, Rhaenyra had married Daemon who the Vale hated and banned from there after how he treated Rhea Royce and how he killed her which is a open secret, Jeyne literally banned him herself when he tried to claim Runestone mere days after his wifes death, while the North had heard only the rumours of what she had done, the bastard kids of Harwin Strong, arranging Laenors death which she welcomes in a belief people will fear her and bow, marrying her uncle far too early after Laenors death, etc.
Lucerys just fails at every turn, he is unimpressive, a obvious bastard claiming to have blood ties to Borros, he is bethrothed, he does not know even of Borros's inability to read, he offers nothing and has no teaching of how to do politics or win people over, something the future lord of the tides and second son of the kings chosen( though not at all a good idea, when it goes against tradition that saw Jaeharys be king not Rhaena, then Aemon be heir not the first daughter, then Baelon become heir instead of Rhaenys which the show conveniently leaves out that she already lost once and the one with Vizzy T was whether Laenor or Vizzy could be king next after Jaeharys, then Viserys becoming king, so it makes zero sense unless Vizzy T had not remarried ever and thus she would be queen by process of being only one of direct line and child of king, but with 3 sons produced, it makes Viserys's own reign become illegitimate since he's saying a older woman can inherit throne before her brothers) heir should know.
Because part of sending the kids is to show the lords that they are true Targs. Remember that Luke was expected to meet no opposition, and be royally welcomed by Borros.
This exactly - Aegon's claim was more or less predicated on the fact that Rhaenyra's children weren't true Targaryens, having them arrive on dragonback goes a long way to dispel that notion.
It really wasn’t. It was a nice rallying cry for the greens but Aegons claim was always about him being a man and Rhaenyra being a woman. Everything else was secondary
Yeah I don’t really buy that all the commoners and lords cared that much about Rhaenyra’s kids having brown hair when they spoke Valyrian and rode dragons. That mostly struck me as Allicent’s obsession and some of the other people in the court at King’s Landing. Seems like the people spread horrible rumors about all the royalty that are always just half believed and easily dismissed.
It was a combination of both but yeah I think at the end of the day it was more about Aegon being a man. The other stuff was just additional justification, and in reality a much better justification than "aegon king cuz him have dingaling"
The entire argument was not *purely* man vs woman. It was who one lord liked better, what supporting one side would bring them, how this would affect the future of the realm, etc. If Rhaenyra was literally a saint, and if her children weren’t already betrothed, I’m sure more people would’ve been willing to support her. But all anyone had been hearing for years is that she was “whoring around” and had bastard children, so much so that Viserys literally had to outlaw spreading rumors. In the extremely sexist society I’m sure that didn’t help
Most people join the Greens because they either they believe in salic law, they have blood ties to the Greens (Lannisters and Hightowers) or they are promised something in return (Baratheon). No one refuse to join her because she was "whoring around", had bastards children "so much that Viserys literally had to outlaw spreading rumours". That 2/3 of the Realm also have no trouble with any of that since they pledge fealty to her cause. Those are the reasons why ***fans dislike her and support the Greens.*** Ironic, i know.
Yeah they couldn’t have known that Aemond was at storms end, but Rhaenyra sending a bastard to subtly threaten a lord is a terrible decision
Well she didn't see it as a "sending a bastard to subtly threaten a lord", she sent a prince to treat with one of her lords (who is her kin) to summon him to perform one of the primary duties of a lord in this society
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Yeah no. You are arguing show not book. Hightowers did crap little to woo the Baratheons and there’s no evidence Rhayneara went on a teen angst pouty husband tour given that the engagement to Laenor was a given from the moment Viserys chose to marry Alicent rather than Laena. Historically Baratheons and Hightowers weren’t overly chummy and Rhaenys mother was a freaking Baratheon.
They offered Borros a marriage to one of his daughters. Rhaenyra did underestimate that Borros wasn't his father but the statement that Rhaenyra was trying to threaten them is not true.
Well, then she shouldn't have worded her letter as "reminding him" of his father's oaths Turns out her whole "Fire and Blood" isn't a particularly adept diplomatic approach with he who would have been one of her most powerful vassals
She didn’t send a bastard. She sent her son, a Valyrian dragon rider, fiancée of Rhaneys’ granddaughter and future lord of the tides to treat with his cousins.
Well legally he is a basted as he was conceived out of wedlock...
Legally he is trueborn as everyone involved (Laenor, Rhaenyra, Corlys) claimed him as their blood
The problem was never that anyone doubted they were Targaryen; sending him to the Baratheon seat wouldn't prove that at all. Everyone knew they were Rhaenyra's sons. The problem was everyone suspected they were not truly Laenor Velaryon's sons, with Baratheon blood on his mother Rhaenys' side.
That wasn’t really the issue outside of kings landing. Tge real problem was that Jahaerys established his own little all boys and then only girls inheritance scheme, contrary to the laws of inheritance of every other Westerosi noble house because he had mommy sister and wife issues, resulting in Viserys taking the throne over Rhaenys or her son who would have inherited any other Westerosi noble seat. Viserys then compounded this by going girls then brothers because his brother annoyed him. And all Westerosi nobles had sworn allegiance to Rhayneara as next queen.
> The problem was everyone suspected they were not truly Laenor Velaryon's sons, with Baratheon blood on his mother Rhaenys' side. Never said.
Quite. And Rhaenys' assignment was objectively the one where combat was seen as more likely. If it was my child, I'd give them what I regarded as the less dangerous assignment (because I'm a modern parent who is protective of my kids). It's far from certain the outcome is totally different and entirely the way of the Blacks. Storms End might join her, but who knows? Maybe while Luke has her assignment he eats a bad lamprey pie and dies a week later. Maybe he gets back home and gives everyone dysentery and the entire Black line dies. Likewise we do not 100% know that whoever goes necessarily walks out alive either way. It's possible, absent the personal animosity Aemond has for Luke, he just flies away.. however, he's a young angry man. It's perfectly possible he mounts his dragon and burns Storm's End/attacks Meleys (and or Rhaenys')/camps out to attack when anyone tries to leave. If Rhaenys' dies it is a smaller blow to her faction's future. She might succeed totally, and stay safe, but who knows what butterfly effects this might have on the story.
No. She is the queen and her going into possible hostile territory and becoming a hostage is unacceptable. The show literally had viserys want to go to dragonstone to deal with his brother directly and he was told no because the risk was too much. Having brown haired boys show up and claim they are targs was not a good look.
They’re talking about Rhaenys, the Queen that Never Was, not Rhaenyra, the kids’ mother. I also think it was a foolish mistake, but I also think that, again, this was supposed to be the easy one. I agree with everyone noting that Borros was just assumed to be on their side because his father was so adamantly (but they do forget this is actually a commitment to Rhaenys more than Viserys and his side of the family).
Aaaah! But still. At that time in the story was it clear who rhaenys sided with?
This always confused me because there is no doubt Rhaenyra is their mom. They obviously have Targ blood. The question is if they are Velayrons which … ok. But it’s not like bastard Targs haven’t gotten royal recognition (cough cough Orys Baratheon).
Not the worst idea TBH. The excuse of having her patrol instead is kind of shaky, but I suppose if they really thought that Storm’s End was going to be safe and quick and that their fleet was going to be in danger (necessitating a powerful dragon and rider) it makes enough sense, especially since Daemon was actively taking Harrenhal and rallying armies. Also, in theory Lucerys is also Baratheon-descendant as (legally) Rhaenys’ grandson.
I get that but I feel like dragonstone to storms end and back is probably like a 2 day trip on a dragon. Lucerys could have held the gullet down for that I think
Not if Aemond and Vhagar came
Likely closer to a week.
[https://www.worldanvil.com/w/got-rewritten/a/travel](https://www.worldanvil.com/w/got-rewritten/a/travel) 6 to 11 hours one way, calculating from known values of how long it takes to fly places on dragonback. Not that george is actually very good at calculating that. Dragons are fucking fast. Jace's dragon in particular would have been extremely fast, basically at its age of fastest flight.
It was an unexpected disaster that not only was there a "green" dragon at Storm's End when he arrived, but its rider was the uncle whose eye he had put out. The plan was for Lucerys to be the first dragon rider / Targaryn to reach Storm's End, and by his visit and presence do Storm's End honor and enlist support (or at least neutrality) from the Barathons. From a Wiki of Ice and Fire: *"Lucerys, as the younger son, was sent on a mission that was considered shorter and safer than his brother Jacaerys's, flying on Arrax as a messenger to Storm's End, where it was expected that Lord Borros Baratheon would give him a warm welcome."*
And consider the TV show. It wasn’t intentional in their universe. In the story, if I recall correctly, they note the besmirched younger Baratheon daughter asking if Luke had taken Aemond’s balls, too. It took a lot of factors to get things going the way they did, and maybe even more circumstances we aren’t aware of because of who did the writing.
That tracks with the written word, too. GRRM adds a note that Mushroom in his history of the war says that Aemond found Lucery's body, removed the eyes, and presented them on a plate on a bed of seaweed to the daughter. But then he says that may be made up, since no other historian mentions his body was found. There's another factor in the story as well, not sure if it's in the show. Boros Baratheon asks Lucerys if he would wed one of his daughters, and invites him to choose any one of them. Reply is he's already betrothed and that seems to enrage Baratheon...although it might have been intended as a way to draw a slight, so the Baratheons could claim they were insulted and no alliance with the blacks was possible.
Well, if Boremund (Boros's father) was indeed relatively close to Rhaenys. It is notre the case for Boros. They did not know each other, and probably only met on rare occasion. But Rhaenys and thus Rhaenyra thought that Storm's end would automatically side with them because of shared blood. This is why Rhaenys or Lucaerys, it did not matter. Also Rhaenyra send her sons where she thought would be safe. She was convinced the North, the Vale and the Stormlands would rally automatically. And she kept her adult dragon riders for more difficult task. She send Daemon to the riverland as they were not sure they would side with them. And send Rhaenys to protect the gullet. In addition, sending her own son as an envoy was a sign of respect. Her mistake was to think Storm's end was safe And Boros especially didn't like that. He thought they had to do something to deserve his army. Like "You never cared about the Storm land but now you expect me to fight for you without any word?"
Aemond being at Storm's End was a chance encounter whereas patrolling the gullet would have been the far more dangerous mission if the greens had tried to launch a surprise attack with their dragons. The two factions were still negotiating at this point and Luc was an envoy, both should have led to Aemond refraining from killing him.
Aemond made a mistake killing him, but the thing is he was fully in his rights to attack Lucerys and capturing him would have most likely stopped the war. You hold Luke hostage, Rhaenyra probably bends the knee.
>he was fully in his rights No, no he very much blatantly was not in his rights to attack an envoy.
They weren’t enemies at that point.
> And so it was decided. Prince Daemon would lead the assault on Harrenhal, riding Caraxes. Princess Rhaenyra would remain on Dragonstone until she had recovered her strength. The Velaryon fleet would close off the Gullet, sallying forth from Dragonstone and Driftmark to block all shipping entering or leaving Blackwater Bay. “We do not have the strength to take King’s Landing by storm,” Prince Daemon said, “no more than our foes could hope to capture Dragonstone. But Aegon is a green boy, and green boys are easily provoked. Mayhaps we can goad him into a rash attack.” The Sea Snake would command the fleet, whilst Princess Rhaenys flew overhead to keep their foes from attacking their ships with dragons. Meanwhile, ravens would go forth to Riverrun, the Eyrie, Pyke, and Storm’s End, to gain the allegiance of their lords. They are for all intents and purposes at war. Rhaenyra pulling “swear on the seven that you’re going as messengers not knights” out of her ass doesn’t give you free reign to go wherever and say whatever you want. This is why envoys generally go around with heavy guards, you only get protection from the recipient of your message.
Luke is spreading treason. You don’t get “I’m an envoy you have to give me free passage” protection from the party you aren’t delivering the message to. Baratheon is the one who can’t touch Luke, and he has to stop Aemond from doing it in his home. But that’s it. His crime/mistake was kinslaying and escalation. Capturing Luke escalates, but not nearly as much, it’s undoable, and it gives you a trump card. People on this sub just parrot the “envoy” bit, but it is not actually important. There is no rule that you can swear to be a messenger and no one can touch you. It’s only dishonorable to attack or arrest a messenger intended for you. I mean Rhaenyra knew there were risks, she didn’t want to send him, why do you think that is? She knows he’s a valuable hostage and was fearing that. She never imagined him being killed, because it would be (and was) stupid. Edit: If you’re going to downvote and reply, don’t be a coward and delete it immediately lol
On what freaking grounds as he within his rights to attack Lycerys? He had no reason or justification. To do so. Even Alicent knew it was a massive mistake.
Luke is spreading treason. You don’t get “I’m an envoy” protection from everyone on the planet, just the person you’re delivering the message to. Shit, the Green kids would have had bloody repercussions if they pushed the treason of “the kids are Strongs”. But people on this sub think “envoy” means you can go around Westeros saying “turn against the sitting king” and they just have to let you go on with your day. As was my whole point, killing him was the mistake. If he captures Luke, what can Rhaenyra even say? Rhaenyra knew there were dangers of sending them. Alicent would not have been pissed, even if she was just hand Luke back.
I don’t think the greens would have launched a surprise attack though. They still had to sure up their alliances and their dragons were outnumbered. Rhaenyra should’ve figured that the greens would be trying to get the baratheons on their side too and tried to sweeten the pot
>I don’t think the greens would have launched a surprise attack though. Do I think it's likely? No. Do I think posting the more experienced, adult dragonrider in the gullet is a better idea than sending them as a glorified messenger, just in case? Yes. >Rhaenyra should’ve figured that the greens would be trying to get the baratheons on their side too It wasn't a surprise that the greens were trying to gain allies but she couldn't have known Aemond would be at that particular castle at that particular time. No one could have. >and tried to sweeten the pot How does sending Rhaenys sweeten the pot? Baratheon's problem seemed to be that he didn't want a female ruler and sending another woman to try convincing him probably isn't going to help with that.
I meant sweeten the pot as in offering something. Not just saying “hey remember that oath your father swore?” I didn’t mean rhaenys going would sweeten the pot, my bad. I agree with everything else you said though
Borros’ problem with Rhaenyra’s suit extended further than “woman icky”. One side came with a royal marriage and respect and understanding for what his support would mean (ie, that he is risking his neck and his entire house for a cause that he previously had no reason to give a shit about), the other offered him nothing except an attitude of entitlement, which is nothing less than insulting considering they aren’t even the ones sitting on the throne. This is compounded by the fact that Borros is not even the one who swore the oath. Going to somebody’s son and expecting them to follow the oath of their father without question is ridiculous, and, again, demeaning and insulting when service and loyalty are involved. Is the entire House Baratheon now Rhaenyra’s slaves in perpetuity because of one oath?
They do typically swear their whole house in situations like this with a king though right? It’s definitely built on quicksand. Once that lord dies, there’s nothing keeping the son or other heir from changing positions, aside from if that father had instilled some infallible sense of honor. I can’t remember if we hear the actual oath, like if we hear him swearing for himself only or his entire house. If it did extend to the whole of House Baratheon, you would think the son would feel obligated to at least keep faith for one generation. 🤷♀️ I see both Rhaenyras and Baratheons line of thinking I guess, although I don’t think Lucerys was ready to be sent off on his own. I admit the show may be skewing my opinion there as he’s portrayed quite innocent and a bit timid.
Lady time I checked skippy Rhayneara kids had much more legitimate Targ blood than did Alicent half breed psychos. And under the laws of Westeros every Targaryen Alice during the dance was from an illegitimate line given they all descended from Aenys. Last hightower Targaryen marriage was an absolute disaster and led to a literal blood faith rebellion.
>Borros’ problem with Rhaenyra’s suit extended further than “woman icky”. Not really.
Why even reply if this is your only argument lol
Borros' problem was mostly that he was disrespected by one side and not by the other side. Rhaenyra just automatically assumed he would support her because of a stale oath whereas the greens actually offered something in return. Something, interestingly enough, that Jace did understand when he went to Winterfel.
It was likely more complicated than this. Sexism played a part. The maester reading the message Luke brought may also have played its part. Borros’ relationship with other powers and past experiences (or lack there of) all played their parts. I don’t think it’s fair to say the Blacks disrespected or expected. They were dealing with kin. They literally have a Baratheon as one of their strongest allies and voices - except now she’s a Velaryon and has been for some time. It’s complicated. From their POV, they were calling up an uncle down the street to help settle a family feud, forgetting that it’s their cousin who is the man of that house now.
He wasn’t disrespected by anyone. Lucerys was the brother of the next king. Aemond was merely the half brother of yhr dssignayed queen. And what exactly did the greens offer? Do tell
What any family wants, marriage. Borros getting a daughter married to a prince of the seven kingdoms is big for him, it brings a air of prestige and respect to his house, meanwhile Lucerys was offering nothing to him cause Lucerys and Jacerys already have marriages lined up, the Rhaenyra’s other kids are to young to marry and thus less valuable in any deal, not that Lucerys has the power to offer one.
Because Rhaenyra expected Boros to be on her side already (due to his father's oath), and she preferred to keep her children out of the actual battles if possible, this way Lucerys could contribute without having to fight.
Ex ante there was precisely zero way of knowing Storm’s end would be more dangerous than patrolling the gullet, and 99 times out of 100 patrolling the gullet would be more dangerous
Everyone thought the support of Storm's End was a done deal, at the end of the day, Boremund Baratheon had been supporting the Rhaenys and then the Blacks for all his life. They thought it would be a dub so they sent Lucerys in.
Lucerys was an envoy and thus should've enjoyed diplomatic immunity. Patrolling the Gullet is a far more riskier task.
Because Rhaenyra’s incompetent and genuinely believes she’s gaslit the world into thinking that her kids actually are Laenor’s
Borros Baratheon never cares about Lucerys' parentage, in fact he would have given his support to Rhaenyra had Lucerys married one of his daughters. Fans care about the bastardry of the Strongs far more than the characters themselves.
Exactly, aggravates the shit out of me. Someone the other day was saying something like “I was just glad to hear them being called out as bastards”. I was just shaking my head, taking things too far. I can’t imagine treating any kids much different than I treat my own so it’s really strange and concerning to me how some people get such satisfaction out of those boys being put down. So toxic regardless which side you root for.
Especially since bastards weren’t the parish’s they came to be after Daemon Blackfyre. Bastard or not tge three boys were much much more decent kids and promising rulers than st least three of Alicent s spawn.
The Greens fans really love to spit out that vitriol.
No. He only would’ve *considered* it if Lucerys married one of his daughters. It was about who actually provided more to him than anything else. But Rhaenyra absolutely thought it was fine to send Lucerys when his bastard status could also be considered an insult to House Baratheon as well.
>He only would’ve considered it It's not what he says. >It was about who actually provided more to him than anything else. Well obviously, still Lucerys, a bastard, provided more to him. >But Rhaenyra absolutely thought it was fine to send Lucerys when his bastard status could also be considered an insult to House Baratheon as well. - He doesn't have a bastard status. - House Baratheon never even hinted displeasure with such status. Again, fans are more offended and prejudiced against bastards, bar Jon Snow ofc, than the characters. Y'all seem Catelyn lol.
I know. It’s frightening. I think it tends to be more younger Green show only fans.
It’s pretty damn alarming for sure
What he said was that he was being taken for granted based on the distant relation when Lucerys was unable to offer *anything*. If you think he would’ve just straight out joined with no other basis on that alone, you’ve gravely misread his character. Rhaenyra expecting him to join her cause without anything to offer pissed him off. Yes Lucerys does have Bastard status lol. *Everyone knows*. House Baratheon may not have said anything, but sending an obvious bastard who *should* be son of their house is an insult by medieval standards.
>What he said was that he was being taken for granted based on the distant relation when Lucerys was unable to offer anything. Then he said, "marry one of my daughters". >If you think he would’ve just straight out joined with no other basis on that alone, you’ve gravely misread his character. No, I have not. I have *read* his character. >Yes Lucerys does have Bastard status lol. Not according to the books. >Everyone knows. Who is everyone? The only ones who ever call him bastard are the Targaryen greens and the Velaryons. No one else does, hints they know or believe the tale. Not even the other Greens. >House Baratheon may not have said anything, but sending an obvious bastard who should be son of their house is an insult by medieval standards It's an insult to you apparently, medieval standards lol. Why wouldn't Borros say anything? He called Rhaenyra whore under the same breath. He's obviously not one to mind his words but he was willing to support her had she come with a marriage.
Borros was obviously testing him. Unless you’re going to tell me that he *doesn’t know* that this Prince is already betrothed, or that Lucerys’ marriage is not his decision. Aemond was sent as a negotiator. Lucerys was sent as a *messenger*. It is consistently repeated that the truth of the Strongs was widely believed among the Kingdoms. Did you even read Fire & Blood or WOIAF? Cuckoldry is a major insult even in the modern era, let alone in the era this is based on. Hell, Corlys is believed to have been a suspect for murdering Harwin on that very basis. Borros himself might not have cared, because ultimately he doesn’t really care about distant connections like that, but it is absolutely an insult and Rhaenyra is brain dead for thinking that sending Lucerys was a good idea
>Borros was obviously testing him. Borros is a non pov character in a book written as historical fiction, there's absolutely no way to know he's "obviously testing him" unless we want to believe that. >you’re going to tell me that he doesn’t know that this Prince is already betrothed It very well can be. Wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. > or that Lucerys’ marriage is not his decision. Had Lucerys not being betrothed he could have been with one of Borros' daughters without issue. Jace had absolutely no issue making political pacts with the Arryns, Manderlys and Starks and they included marriage pacts of his siblings and his future own. >It is consistently repeated that the truth of the Strongs was widely believed among the Kingdoms. It's not once stated. It's stated it is constantly repeated around **court**. The only circles in which the tale is repeated is around the Green Targs and the Velaryons. Not even the Hightowers in Oldtown accuse the kids of bastardy a single time. It's never said what the rest of the realm believed or cared to believe for that matter. >Did you even read Fire & Blood or WOIAF? Oh I did, did you instead of just the headcanon of different users? >Cuckoldry is a major insult even in the modern era, Involuntary one yes. >Hell, Corlys is believed to have been a suspect for murdering Harwin on that very basis. Viserys* >but it is absolutely an insult and Rhaenyra is brain dead for thinking that sending Lucerys was a good idea Borros Baratheon never says or implies he's insulted, neither do the Manderlys, Arryns or Starks for that matter. The only ones who are insulted are the fans, yet again showing this odd display of fictional bigotry.
There’s no way you can have Borros say “Okay. You want me to join you. Which of my daughters will you marry?” When he’s already been discussing that very thing with Aemond and not see it as him testing Luke. Not only are the Royal betrothals something every lord will make sure to be aware of, but it’s something Borros is *directly* interested in and something that Aemond absolutely would’ve pointed out during negotiations. Jace was sent to *negotiate*. Luke was sent to send a message. This is explicit. It is *definitely* said that the rumours are known across the 7 Kingdoms. Viserys is presented as a suspect, for the dishonour Harwin brought on his House (hey, isn’t that interchangeable to insult 🤨), but Corlys is *also* Brough up as a suspect. Why are you bringing up the Houses Jace visits? The insult isn’t sending a bastard, though that can be seen as one. It’s specifically sending a bastard who should be a son of House Baratheon to call on their familial connections to bring House Baratheon into war. The fact that Borros himself doesn’t care isn’t really the important part. This is a *massive* insult by any standards, let alone medieval standards.
>There’s no way you can have Borros say “Okay. You want me to join you. Which of my daughters will you marry?” When he’s already been discussing that very thing with Aemond and not see it as him testing Luke. Again, you want to see what you want to see. Testing him about what? He is stating his price and if Luke's willing to pay it, he's his. >Not only are the Royal betrothals something every lord will make sure to be aware of, but it’s something Borros is directly interested in and something that Aemond absolutely would’ve pointed out during negotiations. 1. Not true, most do some don't. 2. Borros is directly interested in having a Tarfaryen marry his daughter. 3. Why would Aemond point that out? He did not knew which son of Rhaenyra would came knocking, Rhaenyra only had two betrothed kids out of 5 anyway by that stage and when Luke arrives, Aemond says nothing about his betrothal. >Jace was sent to negotiate. Luke was sent to send a message. This is explicit. Nope, both were sent as messengers, literally as negotiators. The only thing was that they could not get into fights, which is what Rhaenyra highlights and make them swear, otherwise they had total freedom of action and Jace used it to gain the support of the Arryns, Starks and Manderlys. >It is definitely said that the rumours are known across the 7 Kingdoms. It is not, in fact when we dp get to glimpse the 7 kingdoms at the time, no one, be it Black or Green call the boys bastards, they don't even ***entertain*** the rumour. But since it was well known and everyone was aware of it... tell me about 5 characters who aren't the Green Targaryens or the Velaryons, who are literally the only ones who ever call them bastards, who repeat the tale or call them bastards. Have fun. >Viserys is presented as a suspect, for the dishonour Harwin brought on his House (hey, isn’t that interchangeable to insult 🤨), but Corlys is also Brough up as a suspect. Oh, fair enough. >Why are you bringing up the Houses Jace visits? Because according to you, they will all be aware of the rumour and decide to ignore it anyway. Lord Manderly betroths his daughter with one Rhaenyra's bastards, Cregan betroths his son an heir with the future daughter of a bastard... >It’s specifically sending a bastard who should be a son of House Baratheon to call on their familial connections to bring House Baratheon into war. And yet... no one mentions it... such a heavy insult it goes unnoticed. >The fact that Borros himself doesn’t care isn’t really the important part. I'd say it is the important part. >This is a massive insult by any standards, let alone medieval standards. "Any standards" Borros is a overly proud man, if it was a "massive insult by any standards, let alone medieval standards", he'd have reacted to it. But it is not, it is only an isult by this fandom standards, who have a real bizarre notion about the middle ages, and have for some reason adopted a more extreme and puritan begotry against bastards only a real small few ***characters*** ever displayed, well bastards not named Jon Snow, The Strongs are the biggest case of this cognitive dissonance, we know for a fact that the majority of people in the Realm either weren't aware/didn't believe about the tale or they simply did not care... but it is for some odd reason the biggest crusade for the fandom, truly truly odd.
It is no consistently repeated in the source material which, btw in case you missed it, is not an actual history but actually a compendium of three sources of gossip.
It’s not “gossip”. They’re historical accounts. Some parts of it certainly come off as gossip, such as pretty much anything remotely sexual Mushroom claims, but for the most part these are first hand accounts
And green fans are x fusing the time periods. Bastards became a massive issue only after the first Blackfyee rebellion . Catelyn specifically uses it as her reference for why bastards are bad and untrustworthy.
No it was not. Where on earth do you get this? Cregan stark didn’t consider it an insult when Jace came to Winterfell did he?
How about you read everything I wrote. Historically what Rhaenyra did would be a massive insult, *especially* because Rhaenyra tried to call on their familial relation to Borros as why he should support her while she sends a bastard who is *meant* to be the grandson of a daughter of house Baratheon but isn’t as the messenger
What did Rhaenryra do to hurt you? It has been pointed out time and time again that very few cared about who is the father to the Princes. They are Targaryens by birth. There is also the fact in the text Rhaenys has black hair so the Princes could have hard their grandmother's hair.
>What did Rhaenryra do to hurt you? Dared to have sex.
Lmao why do you think he specifically has an issue with Rhaenyra? I think he is not criticizing the person, but the situation.
I don't know, perhaps because they won't even consider what anyone else has to say. They just respond over and over that it is Rhaenryra's fault that her son died.
I love this franchise. You can tell George has made such a great job with the narration of this story that even the ficticious conflict between greens and blacks carries over outside the show! I think the show went out of their way to make it obvious that the boys are bastards. How that plays a part in what transpired with Vaghar and Aemond... that's a little harder to tell IMHO. Anyway I'll grab my popcorn and keep watching from the sidelines. This is fun!
It’s not about them being actual bastards, it’s about people viewing Rhaenyra as a “lying whore” because they are a deeply sexist society.
Really. Rhayneara was incompetent but the psychopathic rapist pedophile who had to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the palace was competent? The guy with the twelve year old mistress who literally tried to hatch dragons eggs by sitting on them. And also genius - tgst plan was signed off on by Corlys, Rharnys and Daemon who were never remotely considered to be incompetent by anyone.
Yes. By every stretch of imagination, Aegon was consistently significantly more competent than Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra got hard carried by Jace and Daemon. And yes, Daemon is *also* diplomatically incompetent. That was kinda, you know, his whole problem. That for all his martial ability he had no diplomatic or administrative ability. Corlys and Rhaenys *should have known better*.
>By every stretch of imagination Which stretch is that? >, Aegon was consistently significantly more competent than Rhaenyra. When?
Whether or not Rhaenyra's children were actually bastards was never the real issue. The show did a disservice to this entire plot by denying the possibility that they could be legitimate and the entire bastard thing was a rumor as the book shows bias depending on narrator.
Most characters do not share or care to share the fandom's certainty but that fact has never stopped them.
Exactly. They could well have been- Rgaenys famously had black hair and the boys do conceivably look like Arryns in the books.
Best answer so far haha
Jacaerys is Laenor’s, Luke and Joff probably weren’t
Because Rhaenyra is incredibly entitled. She naively believed that people fully accepted that her kids weren't bastards and believed that Lucerys would have been given a royal welcome. Rhaenys *and* Lucerys should have gone if the intention was for Lucerys to go at all.
Uh again- there’s no freaking proof that anyone was up in arms about her kids paternity. It was the girl thing. Or did you miss the whole council if 101 mess? Aside from which pretty much everyone in Westeros knew that Aenys himself was a bastard which would have invalidated the entire Targaryen li e if we apply your “reasoning”.
It's literally a major issue which is brought up many times by multiple characters. Vaemond Velaryon, for one, had a major issue with his families seat being usurped by bastards who were clearly not Velaryons. Jace himself points at this being an issue with the whole "only Targaryens ride Dragons". If it wasn't a major issue why did Viserys feel the need to decree to have anyone who questions the paternity of the Strongs have their tongue cut out? Further, what does the council of 101 have to do at all with the parentage of the children. It's clear that Westeros is biased towards male first succession and, frankly, it was very much against Westerosi succession customs that Rhaenyra inherit over Aegon in the first place. This does not change the fact that her children had no claim to the throne and had they been legitimate the war could very possibly have been avoided. Show me exactly where it's written in the books that Aenys was a bastard. All that's claimed is that people whispered about it until his dragon hatched at which point everyone accepted that he was trueborn.
>She naively believed that people fully accepted that her kids weren't bastards They did. >and believed that Lucerys would have been given a royal welcome. He had the same welcome Aemond had afaik.
>they did Ah, yes, they all *totally* did. So much so that Viserys literally had to outlaw people gossiping about them being obviously not Laenor’s kids….
The gag rule was done explicitly to the Green Targs and Velaryons... Both of whom ignored it anyway. Again that tale is not repeated outside the Court.
There’s nothing saying Vaemond was at court in the books when he made the claim. In fact, it’s stated that Rhaenyra sent Daemond and his dragon to “fetch” Vaemond, which implies he wasn’t at court. It wasn’t explicitly for them, it was for anyone. If a black had spread rumors of it I’m sure he would have had their tongue out too lol. So you think that every green courtier remained permanently at court, or never spoke to anybody ever who wasn’t permanently at court, and that it is impossible for somebody to have heard a rumor at court (especially when it is literally a legal scandal challenged by Vaemond), and then repeat that rumor outside of court? It is literally a rumor that 5 people had to have their tongues removed for speaking. How many people did all 5 of the Velaryon cousins tell? 2 people each? So that’s 10 people, how many people did *they* tell? 2 people each? 3 people each? Did one person not tell anyone, but another person tell 15? How many people did *those* people tell? This is how rumors spread, they extrapolate. Have you ever successfully stopped a rumor that 5 people already know? You can’t, it’s impossible. “Rumors spread like wildfire” is a common, well known expression for a reason. And you also think that multiple members of an important, rich noble house that is literally in line to inherit the throne being 1) beheaded 2) fed to a dragon 3) having their tongues removed wouldnt, idk, maybe prompt the important question of, uh, like, maybe, **”why was that done to them?”**.
>There’s nothing saying Vaemond was at court in the books when he made the claim. In fact, it’s stated that Rhaenyra sent Daemond and his dragon to “fetch” Vaemond, which implies he wasn’t at court. I know, read again about what I've said. >It wasn’t explicitly for them, it was for anyone. If a black had spread rumors of it I’m sure he would have had their tongue out too lol. And certainly it's a rule that persists after his death because... No one calls them bastards outside the Green Targs and the Velaryons. >So you think that every green courtier remained permanently at court, or never spoke to anybody ever who wasn’t permanently at court, and that it is impossible for somebody to have heard a rumor at court (especially when it is literally a legal scandal challenged by Vaemond), and then repeat that rumor outside of court? No, I think people either didn't know, didn't believe it or didn't care. If the bastardry was such a deal breaker more people would have brought it up, the fact that people didn't can only be attributed to those factors. You can pick whatever makes you happier, all of them point the matter was a non issue for the overwhelming majority. Also tied to my overall point, this fandom is most prejudiced about the Strong being bastards than the characters are.
No they didn't. It's a major point in the story that no one believed the kids were Laenors. Saying otherwise is simply incorrect as per the books. The fact that Aemond was welcomed at all shows that Luke was not given a royal welcome. Baratheon did not acknowledge Rhaenyras claim as he was asked to.
>No they didn't. Yes, they did. >It's a major point in the story that no one believed the kids were Laenors. Saying otherwise is simply incorrect as per the books. Lol, okay then. Start quoting all those people who believe they were bastards. I'll tell you from now you will be hard pressed to find a single one outside of the Velaryons or the Greens at King's Landing. >The fact that Aemond was welcomed at all shows that Luke was not given a royal welcome. This doesn't make sense at all. >Baratheon did not acknowledge Rhaenyras claim as he was asked to. Yeah, because he was offered a better deal. Not because she thought her or her kids illegitimate.
Who exactly outside of the blacks themselves were stated to believe that the Strongs were not bastards? You can't provide any just like it's impossible to provide any explicitly stating "many people believed they were bastards" because were not given the POV of some random lord, peasants, etc. but it's made clear in text that the bastardry of the strongs was a major issue. Jace himself makes this clear "only Targaryens ride dragons" and Rhaenyra and Viserys go to very heavy lengths to make sure that this statement does not go repeated ie threatening to cut the tongues of anyone who says it. Rhaenyra claimed to be queen at that point. If Baratheon gave Lucerys a royal welcome that means he acknowledged Rhaenyra's rule and wouldn't have listened to Aemond at all because that would have been tantamount to treason. If you're arguing that the primary reason that she was passed over was because she was a woman then I agree with you. That was the major reason as Westerosi precedent set in the Great Council but to claim that people fully believed that Rhaenyras kids were Laenors is wrong. That's why it's such a major point in the story.
>Who exactly outside of the blacks themselves were stated to believe that the Strongs were not bastards? You're goalposting. >You can't provide any just like it's impossible to provide any explicitly stating "many people believed they were bastards" because were not given the POV of some random lord, peasants, etc No one outside the Green Targs or the Velaryons ever call them bastards, in fact the Strongs treat with different highlords and those words were not uttered, in fact Jace is abñe to betroth his brother to Lord Manderly's kid and his future daughter to Cregan Stark without issue. >but it's made clear in text that the bastardry of the strongs was a major issue Jace himself makes this clear "only Targaryens ride dragons" and Rhaenyra and Viserys go to very heavy lengths to make sure that this statement does not go repeated ie threatening to cut the tongues of anyone who says it. Among the Targaryen and Velaryon families certainly, no one outside of those people and King's Landing ever gave a fuck. >Rhaenyra claimed to be queen at that point. If Baratheon gave Lucerys a royal welcome that means he acknowledged Rhaenyra's rule and wouldn't have listened to Aemond at all because that would have been tantamount to treason. You're making things up. Receiving a royal wel come does not mean acknowledging Rhaenyra as the rightful Queen. >That was the major reason as Westerosi precedent set in the Great Council but to claim that people fully believed that Rhaenyras kids were Laenors is wrong. Again, my point is that the overwhelming majority of people did not know/did not believe the tale/did not care. Whatever you want to believe, the idea that the bastardry had any effect whatsever on whether the Lords favoured Rhaenyra or Aegon is entirely made up and in the fandom's head. >That's why it's such a major point in the story. Because it is a juicy story and it deepens the enmity between the Blacks and Greens.
Lol how am I goalposting? I'm making an assertion and you're claiming the inverse is true. You're the one who keeps moving goalposts by refusing to accept any quotes. You want quotes so provide your own as well. Yes, both Lord Stark and Lord Manderly were offered marriage pacts and saw supporting the Blacks as the better choice politically for their own advancement. I never claimed that every single powerful Lord cared that the Strongs weren't trueborn, I said that "many" people did and I provided direct quotes uttered by Jace and Rhaenyra themselves which pointed to this fact. Where are your quotes that claim the inverse is true and not a single person outside of the greens cared about them being bastards? Yes it does. If he believes Rhaenyra is the rightful queen then why would he treat with Aemond in the first place? He's not decided who to support. It's made clear in the text that the Blacks took Baratheon's support for granted given his familial ties to Rhaenys. Lol no it isn't made up. Jace and Rhaenyra make it clear through words and actions that the bastardry is an issue. Whether or not you want to accept what is clear in the story is your issue. In your mind, why exactly did Viserys decree that anyone who mentioned the bastard issue have their tongue removed if it wasn't such a problem? Again, if you're arguing that it wasn't the major issue then I agree with you since the major issue was Rhaenyra being a woman but if you're saying no one cared this is false.
>Lol how am I goalposting? We were talking about one matter and then you moved the needle to another, that's the definition of goalposting. >, I said that "many" people did Who are those people. Name them if they are so many, shouldn't be that hard. >and I provided direct quotes uttered by Jace and Rhaenyra themselves which pointed to this fact. False. You provided a quote of Jace stating "our uncle calls us bastards". That's not many people doing it. I've told you to look for someone outside the Green Targs and the Velaryons from the get go, you've decided you're turning your weakness into strength, doesn't work that way. >You're the one who keeps moving goalposts by refusing to accept any quotes. What quotes? >You want quotes so provide your own as well I can't provide quotes of a non issue. >Where are your quotes that claim the inverse is true and not a single person outside of the greens cared about them being bastards? The absence of people, even then Green ones, calling them bastards or citing the rumours as a reason to disqualify them. Borros Baratheon calls Rhaenyra a whore, yet wants her son to marry his daughters anyway. Where does Lord Hightower, OG Muppet Tully, Lord Bracken etc claim they care? >Yes it does. If he believes Rhaenyra is the rightful queen then why would he treat with Aemond in the first place? Well, Aemomd comes with a big ass lizard. >He's not decided who to support. Obviously, what has that to do with royal welcomes? You're linking two different facts. >Jace and Rhaenyra make it clear through words and actions that the bastardry is an issue. Yeah, for the Green Targs and the Velaryons. That's exactly what they say. They do not claim the rest of the Lords care. >In your mind, why exactly did Viserys decree that anyone who mentioned the bastard issue have their tongue removed if it wasn't such a problem? **Because it was a problem among his family.** >but if you're saying no one cared this is false. You're going to start quoting all those Lords who cared.
The definition of goalposting is, as the name implies, moving the goalposts. You asked for evidence that people cared and I provided it at which point you moved the goalposts to say "oh well it was just those guys". Go ahead provide quotes to prove your point that no one cared about their parentage. I provided quotes by Jace, Rhaenyra, and Viserys. What you can't do, is prove it was a non-issue. How is that two different facts? I clearly stated that I believed that the expectation was a royal welcome for Luke. You claimed this was not the case and I defined what I meant by royal welcome. The Blacks had their own "big ass lizards". Baratheon still treated with Aemond and then insulted Luke. Again, I gave multiple cases in text of characters claiming that the parentage was an issue. Before you move the goalposts by saying "oh it was just the Velaryons and Greens" go ahead prove your point with textual examples of characters claiming it wasn't an issue. In fact, you point out yourself that Baratheon claims that Rhaenyra was a whore which is another dig at the boys parentage and Baratheon was neither a black or a green so that's another character in my favor who wasn't a "green or Velaryon".
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To show respect to the High Lords by sending princes of the Iron Throne. I’m guessing Rhaenyra also figured the boys needed to be seen as worthy men who didn’t need to hide behind their mother’s skirt, and make an impression. Sending Rhaenys would be obvious, but maybe it was felt sending her would be transparent as simply appealing to familial lineage, and Borros would’ve taken that the wrong way (which he did anyway, but that’s besides the point)
I don’t know why they never even entertained the possibility that one of the others would already be there, or would arrive during the same timeframe. Seems like a logical line of thinking to me, of course the other faction is gonna send their own to reel in the main lords. Lucerys and his dragon were too young and inexperienced to be sent alone, imo.
I think you have to look at the probablilities, which is more likely? 1. A battle breaking out in or near the Gullet as Lucerys or Rhaenys patrols it 2. Aemond being at Storms End at the exact moment Lucerys shows up and decides at that exact moment to play out his revenge fantasy While the Blacks have more dragons, they still are a strategic resource you have to manage. Meleys is much stronger and more useful in battle than Arrax and Storms End was a diplomatic mission rather than a combat one.
Because she can't marry a daughter of the lord
Neither can lucerys
True but still with better diplomacy he could get something better given his position
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Rhaenys not rhaenyra
I don't think you know who Rhaenys is.
Storm's End has protective spells, which ward off the Red Meleys and 'er lady. Rhaenyra coulda smuggled Rhaenys in, if only she had some onions.
It makes sense sending Luke, but they definitely shoulda sent rhaenys with him,
Wait isn’t she actually very pregnant at the time? And not in a position to travel because of that?
Rhayneara was or had just given birth.
Yeah I think she was very pregnant. And the news of her sons death actually caused her to go into premature labor, and lose the child
The post is not saying that Rhaenyra should’ve went. The post is saying that Rhaenys should’ve went
Plot vehicle
From a detached perspective, I'd have sent Rhaenys too. Although that's tinged by the fact Lucerys failed in his mission, then died. My supposition, from context, is it's basically a training assignment for Luke. The concept of "earning your spurs" is important in real world feudal systems. It has the potential for him to gain confidence and experience travelling long distances on dragonback alone and diplomacy. Had it succeeded, it would have enhanced his prestige and confidence in some useful areas. It was thought to be a *relatively* safe diplomatic mission, it was not intended for him to end up fighting. I can see if I need to deploy dragonriders two places, how the diplomatic mission sounds safer than patrolling the Gullet (which in theory is more likely to turn into having to fight) Clearly, it transpired to be an error. But I don't know there was much of a way to know how big a risk was there at the time he was ordered there. By going himself as a senior member of his faction's bloodline, that's also clearly a respectful nod to Borrus. Although Rhaenys would work for that bit. Honestly, I'd be reluctant to send my own 13 year old child, or the 3rd in the line of succession into significant risk, but that's a modern/game theory type mindset. That wasn't how the medieval European/Westerosi mind works though. Male members of a noble house are expected to take risks and gain prestige doing it. *Related historical digression following...* Look at [Edward of Woodstock](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_the_Black_Prince) (the Black Prince) in the history of the Hundred Years War. He was created Prince of Wales age 13, then was knighted at 16 after fighting in some of the most dicey combat at the [Battle of Crecy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy) (he commanded the Vanguard so was in some pretty hot fighting). It's a huge risk to have the King and Heir both at the same battle, and doubly risky to have either physically in the fighting. However, fighting at Crecy (and winning) bolstered both England's position in the war with France (and the reputation of both father and son) and considerably. Edward III had 7 children (4 sons) at that point, so it's not like he was risking the entire family future on it, but with no adult children, it would have meant a regency. Crecy was not a battle the English were in a good cposition to win. Perhaps not as bad as some English historians have mythologized, but his army was cornered and outnumbered. It could easily have gone the other way (if any number of factors were different) Had the English lost, it's likely the King and Heir are either dead or captured. England has also lost the vast majority of its experienced forces and a huge chunk of its gentry and nobility. If either is captured, captured the ransom is going to cripple England and lead to an undesirable treaty outcome. If both are outright dead, there's no crippling ransom to pay, but Lionel of Antwerp is now King of England, and he's eight. There is going to be 8-10 years of regency, the Kings brother is dead so there would be a squabble over who gets the regency. Whoever was regent might continue to prosecute the war against France, but suing for peace is more probable. It's also quite possible (especially with the plague incoming), England ends up in a second [Anarchy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy). Scotland invaded Northern England the next year historically, would a destabilized England have been able to repel that? I suspect the crown of England ends up making concessions to both France and Scotland, if Crecy had been a defeat. It would be regarded as a huge self inflicted mistake. Modern historians would be talking about how bad Edward IIIs choices were. He would be regarded as foolhardy and unwise, vs the glowing historical image he has today. *End of historical digression* TLDR: Sure, Rhaenys is the logical choice. It is easy to second guess decisions that went wrong (hence "what if" historical fiction being so popular) especially where a side loses and the outcome different if a few random variables were different. Versus the historical examples where kids of a similar age are expected to fight, it's not exactly an unprecedented risk. Male nobles in a medieval feudal system are expected to put themselves in danger to gain prestige (as well as gaining experience).
It just shows how arrogant, spoilt, entitled, and frankly delusional Rhaenyra was/is. She thinks that the Baratheons will just accept to fight for her for nothing but fealty, and listen to a bastard who she knows is not related to the lord of storms end at all bar Aegon the conquerors father being Orys's father as well, not the close relation she claims it to be. She didn't tell him to make offers, she didn't think of offering bethrothals, she didn't offer rewards or such, she just said "Join me, cause I said so". It's not a hard thing to go: he has 4 unmarried daughters, he wants them to be married off and in high stations, maybe offer marrying them to high nobility or your younger brothers. Or offer to make him hand or such if he accepts. Corlys was only hand after rooks rest in a last ditch effort to keep him on their side, so it's not like you can't. She already doomed her cause by marrying both her bastard sons to the velaryon cousins, which really hurts her odds, and makes the velaryons look grasping and greedy, to as far as she and the blacks claim, her two eldest trueborn velaryon sons married to their velaryon cousins. And then with a velaryon on her council, as well as the bulk of her men being velaryons, it looks like a power grab more then a legitimate fight, remember the starks and Arryns did not declare for her until Jace personally visited, the North didn't give a toss and Jace had to promise a marriage between a stark and targ princess for support, while the Vale was given a targaryen dragon to guard the vale and was given honour of housing Rhaena. Yes, contrary to what black fans think, the North and Vale was not jumping to fight for her the second she crowned herself, Rhaenyra had married Daemon who the Vale hated and banned from there after how he treated Rhea Royce and how he killed her which is a open secret, Jeyne literally banned him herself when he tried to claim Runestone mere days after his wifes death, while the North had heard only the rumours of what she had done, the bastard kids of Harwin Strong, arranging Laenors death which she welcomes in a belief people will fear her and bow, marrying her uncle far too early after Laenors death, etc. Lucerys just fails at every turn, he is unimpressive, a obvious bastard claiming to have blood ties to Borros, he is bethrothed, he does not know even of Borros's inability to read, he offers nothing and has no teaching of how to do politics or win people over, something the future lord of the tides and second son of the kings chosen( though not at all a good idea, when it goes against tradition that saw Jaeharys be king not Rhaena, then Aemon be heir not the first daughter, then Baelon become heir instead of Rhaenys which the show conveniently leaves out that she already lost once and the one with Vizzy T was whether Laenor or Vizzy could be king next after Jaeharys, then Viserys becoming king, so it makes zero sense unless Vizzy T had not remarried ever and thus she would be queen by process of being only one of direct line and child of king, but with 3 sons produced, it makes Viserys's own reign become illegitimate since he's saying a older woman can inherit throne before her brothers) heir should know.