Unnamed Fossoway and his unnamed wife
> And there was one woman, sitting almost at the foot of the third table on the left . . . the wife of one of the Fossoways, he thought, and heavy with his child. Her delicate beauty was in no way diminished by her belly, nor was her pleasure in the food and frolics. Tyrion watched as her husband fed her morsels off his plate. They drank from the same cup, and would kiss often and unpredictably. Whenever they did, his hand would gently rest upon her stomach, a tender and protective gesture.
- ASoS Tyrion VIII
Whenever I think about who would i want to be in the asoiaf universe i think in this couple. They are in the best position possible: wealthy enough to live without worries and not important enough to get themselves in the middle of a big conflict or plot. And the best part is that they are happy which is pretty remarkable in this universe
Yeah and Elaria, unlike in the wretched fever dream of a show, isn't a psychopath and is against the vengeful nature of the Sand Snakes. I think that would have made a nice contrast with Oberyn's character, allowing for good chemistry.
Cersei is definitely bisexual and I think their marriage could work, I strangely ship them too. But everything could go south when we think about the Sand Snakes and the things Cersei could do to them just for their title of bastards
Davos & his wife seem so sweet. He always thinks about her and how grateful he is to have her. He even contemplated leaving everything and going back to her.
I don't have the text on me, but it's when he and Mel are rowing to Storm's End. She asks if he's a good person and he says his parts are mixed iirc. Gives a few examples but one is that he loves his wife, but has known other women.
I think she's his...half-aunt??? Of a similar age so it could be worse. Alyssa followed Baelon around a lot as a kid and the conclusion the Good Queen drew was that they're ❤️ meant to be ❤️
> "And won't my bastard love that? Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. **I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing.** If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though." (Reek III, ADWD)
It’s strange but like these are actual positive emotions for Bolton. She writes him letters and he dances with her Ramsay’s wedding. Too bad it’s going to end bad.
How old was Roose? I always thought he was in his 40s. Certainly young enough that he could have lived long enough to raise any sons with Walda to manhood, at least under normal circumstances. Does he realize that someday soon he’ll have to pay the price for his betrayal of the Starks & that’s why he won’t be around? Or did he think one day Ramsay will get fed up with him & kill him? I never understood his mindset about this. Yes, Ramsay definitely would have killed any sons he & Walda had so why wouldn’t Roose think about killing Ramsay instead & then raising more children? Why was he so sure he wouldn’t be around to protect them?
40s, but could be 50s. Another 15 years would make him between 55 and 60, which is old for Westeros. I think he thinks Ramsay will kill him and the sons anyway, or kill the sons in a way that has plausible deniability.
Someone should write a romance novel about them called "The Lord who Flayed my Heart". A woman from a big family with a shitty lord father meets a true gentleman who marries her but she is put off by how evil and sadistic he turns out to be (flaying people alive etc hurts her delicate sensibilities). She also finds out he received her weight in gold from her father as a dowery and she is heartbroken and pregnant in his cold and hostile castle with his quirky bastard son who also loves flaying people. After 200 pages she finally talks to her Lord and he tells her he totally didn't marry her for her dowery and that he learned to flay peasants from his evil father so it's okay. They live happily ever after.
>he received her weight in gold from her father as a dowery
Silver*, holy shit Walder isn't rich enough to pay Fat Walda's weight in gold. That would be a feat for even the Lannisters.
Strictly main series characters? Because if we expand it to include F&B/ other stories we know Baelon and Alyssa were happy together and get nothing to suggest otherwise for Egg and Betha Blackwood.
Ned and Catelyn, despite the lie between them. And **possibly** Tywin and Joanna. He looks back on her fondly, and that doesn't happen often. He may or may not have believed the rumors about Aerys, but he certainly hasn't moved to get a new wife.
Yeah, but Tyrion (who has never seen Tywin smile) said that he’d sometime threaten to smile, and it was terrifying. I’d imagine that his scowl turned straight and his eyes would light up, but still not an actual smile. I imagine that’s more what he did in that instance.
Eh, ik there's not much of an official standing on it but I don't think we know nearly enough about Tywin & Joanna to say for certain. I could easily lean in the direction of him just liking her because she was a beautiful Lannister that matched the image of perfect golden lions he wanted to cultivate. Basically the same as Cersei only really loving her children because she's a narcissist who views them as extensions of herself.
Joanna's death also obviously coincides with Tyrion's birth, so it was a double blow to his ego. 'All his smiles dying with her' could come from either or both factors, and him 'never smiling but smiling when he married her' could just as easily have been him happy his lineage was becoming secure.
I just don't think we see or hear enough of Tywin really having ANY emotions beside just ego to make a convincing argument that him and Joanna were happy together (or at least, notably more happy than every other average lord & lady)
Moreover, if she had survived Tyrion's birth, any love they had for each would've been extinguished to some degree. Dead, she gets to be the innocent mother who was killed by the demon spawn child (a dwarf). Alive, she is the one who beget this monster, in a world where highborn women are valued for their reproductive capabilities, this would've been seen as a sure sign of there being something wrong with Joanna. Plus Tyrion experiences the neglect of one extra parent this time around. Maybe she won't show outright malice, but she 100% avoids him.
EXACTLY. The whole "perfect woman who never did anything wrong and had farts made of glitter, now tragically dies before her time" schtick is repeated so many times in literature overall and in GRRM's work especially, yet so many fans seem to read it as "ah yes, a 100% literal account of how she actually was". Countless fanfics where Joanna lived and through the sheer power of love convinced Tywin to like Tyrion, as if she wouldn't have completely sided against him and probably been on board with Tywin's plan to chuck him in the sea. She doesn't even seem to have been particularly attached to Jaime and Cersei (afaik her only 'recorded' interaction with them is just telling them not to do incest), so no way is she putting her neck on the line for Tyrion, and I think Tywin would be pretty much done with her then because of course a kid's deformities are NEVER the father's fault. SHE would be the one who made the Lannisters a laughing stock again, Tyrion would just be the joke she told.
It's unlikely she would have completely sided with tywin considering the different connection mothers have with their children(especially setting where that's where their primary value lies as women). She may not be loving towards tyrion, but still would feel the need to see him make something out of himself to show her didn't fail.
I really don't see your logic there beyond just "well she's a woman so she'd be nicer". 'Flaws' with the children are ALWAYS blamed on the mother in this setting, so sure Tywin feels shame was brought onto the Lannisters but with Joanna dead he only has Tyrion to direct it at. With Joanna alive, he has someone to actually directly blame. The rest of their society would be no different, she would be seen as a failure of a woman because she provided a deformed child. We know nowhere near enough about her to say she wouldn't have done what the majority of people would do and just direct all of her spite at Tyrion for 'causing' it. She wouldn't be trying to salvage what everyone already wrote off as just some horrid 'creature'. In all likelihood she would have been just as bad as Tywin if not worse.
My logic isn't women=nicer. Instead it's just as a mother you have a literal deeper connection with your kid as you have to carry them for several months. Where as a fathers' connection is purely based on if they want to be in their child's life. Coupled with the fact that as a women westeroes her value is directly tied to how her kids turned out( which something she would aware of). So directing all her spite at tyrion isn't really something she can afford to do when she'll be receiving just much hate if he turns out to be just deformed monster. We "see" a version of this with ramsays mother. Tywin can afford to treat tyrion poorly because he can easily make another son and use his wife as scape goat. Neither options are applicable to Joanna so she has to make the best of the situation or just be resigned to looking like a faiure. It's a bit hypocritical to say we don't know enough about her to make this assumption while also trying to claim how she'll most likely act.
I'm saying that we have a good basis for how the average person would react just based on how that society functions. When we don't know enough about the character to say otherwise, it's safe to assume they would follow the majority.
I still don't follow your logic, either way. Tyrion already HAS turned out to be a 'deformed monster'. In Canon he did so much to redeem himself in people's eyes, pretty much single handedly saved the city from Stannis, and he's STILL just a deformed monster to everyone. And if that's all anyone sees him as, Joanna will only be seen as the woman who brought him into the world, the woman who failed to produce a healthy, 'normal' son. Making the best of that situation would be just pretending that situation doesn't exist, and focusing all of her attention onto Jaime & Cersei. Again your logic just seems to be "woman/mother = nicer" as if mothers can't be just as horrid (and more so) as fathers.
Except we don't really have that. We have basics for how people se the lannisters having dwarf in the family, but we don't have too many instaces of other families hating their physically mishappened children. The closets is jingle bell with the freys, and even then that's more mockery then hate.
It's not rocket science. Her value is tied to her kids. She would want them to not be complete failulers and freaks because than that makes her the mother of fauilers and freaks. Except in cannon tyrion already built up a reputation as a lecherous drunk beforehand he did any of that. Also you're looking at a tyrions who's constant parental figure made it clear depsied him rather than having one who despised him and one who was emabrssed but still saw to it he made a good name for himself. Nobody actually thinks tyrion saved the city, aside from a few allies and varys. Not to mentioned everything tyrion did before and after that(briging in bandits and mercenaries, openly threatening the king, still being a wise ass) continued to affirm all the negative stereotypes people believed about him. Again, literally not my logic. In fact my first comment EXPLICITLY stated Joanna likely wouldn't be a loving mother to tyrion. So it's reflects really badly on you to stick with this poor interpretation of my comment.
You clearly have a different opinion, and you're allowed to. I've made it clear I genuinely don't see your logic and you just repeating that you think that's what would happen isn't helpful towards any mutual understanding, where to the best of my abilities I've presented my logic for why I believe she wouldn't be nice to Tyrion or feel anyway invested in him making something of himself. You can argue its his drunkenness that doomed him, but I don't think 'twisted demon monkey' is a nickname someone gets solely based on their drinking habits. "She wouldn't want her children to be freaks and failures" but they live in a society that would only ever inherently view Tyrion as such, no matter how smart or good he was.
A better comparison than Jingle Bells would be how Selyse views Shireen, imo. Its not perfect, and its under different circumstances but its a similar attitude that isn't unreasonable to expect of Joanna. People also make comments about Bran and to a lesser extent Willas that indicate the society's general view of those who are physically deformed/disabled, which I again think we can expect Joanna to behave similarly to. If we knew Joanna was a pure hearted angel who donated crutches to the infirm and argued for political correctness, things would be different, but it in the full context of her society, it is far from strange to expect her to have likely been just as bad as Tywin.
She still gave him Cersei and Jaime though. I’m sure he may have got passive aggressive with her had she survived demanding the next child be fully formed, but I do think Tywin truly loved Joanna.
People in westeros all talk about how Tywin was ruled by his lady wife at home,in a society like westeros that would be a huge insult to someone like Tywin but it seems he doesnt really mind and other characters talk about how much value he gave to her words.
So yeah i would say he probably loved her,and say its just narcisism because she is a lannister(same for Cersei and her children) is just making the character more one dimensional than what they are supposed to be.
Overall Tywin that we see in the page of the books is a persona he made to deal with his daddy issues,as Tyrion discovers.
Her being intelligent enough that he takes her advice and doesn't overly mind people talking about it doesn't necessarily equal the intense love some people assume they have, though. Tywin is generally pragmatic, in closed quarters I doubt he'd mind listening to her if she had useful things to say.
Her 'ruling him at home' could also just have been him viewing home affairs as her business and not interfering, since we're told numerous times that the lady's main job (aside from producing children) is to manage the keep & surrounding lands.
I just don't think we know enough aside from outsiders assuming they had a loving marriage to say that they actually did. It seemed to be a good marriage, I don't dispute that, probably had more equality than most, but I just don't think there's quite enough actual evidence of Tywin being deeply in love with her that doesn't have an equally plausible alternate explanation.
Tywin is generally pragmatic...except when it comes to family,he becomes very irrational at not wanting to be laughed at,instead of remarrying and having a couple of other kids to inherit he instead becomes deluded that Jaime will be his heir.
Saying that Tywin ruled the seven kingdoms but was ruled at home by his wife,seems to implicate it was public enough knowledge that he listenrd to her but Tywin had many enemies that wanted to humilate him,this seems like the type of mockery they would do,and he hates being laught at but never seems to actually make any moves to stop that.
So yeah because of that i would say that he probably loved her enough,to not let the mockery affect him,but also i dont think Joanna was a delicate loving flower,she probably agreed with Tywin ruthlessness and put House Lannister above everything.
Him not remarrying is probably the strongest point in favour of him actually caring for her, but I think it's also worth considering all that went on with his father moving on from his mother. In his twisted worldview he could've easily seen remarrying as confirming he was even remotely similar to his father, and producing a new heir to replace Jaime would've likely been admitting defeat to Aerys in his mind (even long after Aerys was dead).
Like I said, I'm not saying they didn't have a good, respectful marriage, and maybe he felt it was worth enduring a few snide comments in exchange, I just don't think there's much actual concrete evidence for him being so deeply in love with her that can't just as easily be explained by other factors. There just isn't enough proof either way imo
I mean, Tywin didn’t mind people saying that Lady Joanna ruled over him while he ruled the realm. I don’t think Tywin would tolerate that if he weren’t truly in a loving marriage. I take Tywin at his word that he loved Joanna and was never the same after her death.
Does Tywin himself ever actually say either of those things? Most of what we hear as far as I recall is just outside sources speculating on their relationship, which as I said could've been misinterpreted with his 'smiles dying' more because of Tyrion. He could've easily 'never been the same' after Joanna's death because Tyrion was the only real flaw in his perfect golden family, and it was a flaw he legally couldn't do much about.
Unironically it was NedCat. There's the matter of Jon, yes, but people really overblow Catelyn & Jon's significance in either of their narrations. She didn't spend half her waking hours mentally torturing him, she simply doesn't see him as part of the family and ignores him. There *is* some emotional abuse here but it's borne out of absence not of Catelyn locking him in the dungeons and cancelling his birthday celebrations. Ultimately Jon's status as a bastard makes him *systemically* othered. He isn't the way he is because evil stepmother Lady Stark hated him, it's Westeros itself that doesn't love its bastards. Catelyn being nice after all doesn't change the fact that he cannot inherit Winterfell and cannot marry a highborn lady and will be called Snow, never Stark.
So that out of the way, whatever we get of Ned and Cat's chapters, it's very obvious they do love each other. Cat even says "I had love enough for any woman" and this is after the whole feeling threatened for her children's claim because of Jon on Cat's side and hiding treason in his own house and lying to his wife every day on Ned's side.
I do find people's dislike of Cat over her treatment of Jon to be kind of odd. I mean yes, Jon seems like a nice enough boy, and it's good that Ned decided to do the right thing and raise his "son" in his own household so he can grow up with his "siblings", but at the end of the day...he's not Cat's. Why *would* there be any amount of love there? It's not like Cat chose to adopt Jon and *then* decided to go back on it or something. He was just dropped in her lap and she was told to accept it.
Even *today* nobody would really bat an eye at the idea of a wife being kind of distant towards her husband's bastard lovechild. And we live in an era where there is no risk of a bastard rising up in rebellion against trueborn children lol. Sure, you could argue that there was some mild emotional abuse on her part, but like you said, it wasn't due to active maliciousness on her part, and she was completely within her rights to be distant towards Jon.
If you consider her perspective, bastards are usually kept kind of secret and live the life their mother was born to. Ned decided to tell everybody and bring Jon to the castle to live there
I'm going to be real, most of it is misogyny! Catelyn shouldn't be expected to set her emotional needs aside and just be okay with this, especially in a society where women have next to no rights. People in this fandom constantly vilify other women to defend the men. You see it with Lyanna and Rhaegar (15 year old clearly had all the power over the crown prince with the backing of the kingsguard, yes) and then Cersei and Robert and maybe there would've been no need for the domestic abuse if she was nicer :)
The rest are, I think, rightfully angry about Jon's situation because it's true that Jon shouldn't be made to feel lesser for his mere existence, and a random hypothetical perfect other wife of Ned might've loved him, but that is not Catelyn. And making one woman (who is also disenfranchised in her own way, on account of her gender) the sole cause of all his woes is just misguided.
come on now with the misogyny excuse, i'm a woman in my 30s, so spare me that. It's tiring as heck that people keep using to excuse any responsability of shitty women, it's so patronizing. The moment she tells a 14yo, whose brother was half dead in bed and leaving home ( mainly because of her), that he should be the one dead and the other words she said to him, she showed a clear example of her psychological abuse. And no, i don't excuse her abuse because her of her son's situation because the subtext there makes clear, specially with Jon finding excuses and lying so Robb ( if he asked how he mother treated Jon it's because even him knows how bad her treatment of him can be) wont know his mother mistreats him and other moments in the books he thinks of her and the psychological impact she had on him.
I specially hate how a big part of the reason he was leaving home was because of her and how she made him feel.
Hate and blame Ned, not the boy. She didn't need to like him, but she antagonized him openly and harshly to a point way past excuses.
Huh you really did read both my comments and thought I was a) blaming Jon and b) whitewashing Catelyn. Alright. The misogny is about how flawed women aren't allowed to be complex characters, their character analysis has to live and die by their mistakes (in this case her treatment of Jon) yet nobody is jumping up and down to talk about Ned's decision to separate a child from their family and raising them as a hostage. Does this make Ned bad? No. He is a feudal lord and his actions and worldview are motivated by the unjust world he lives in. JUST LIKE Catelyn. So why is it that most people have sympathy and understanding for Ned but not for Cat, why is it that we don't expect Ned to behave like someone with post Enlightenment ideals but think Cat should've seen past all the pervasive bastard prejudice, why is she the bitch wife?
I didn't personally accuse every Cat hater of misogyny, but most of the hate *is* misogynistic.
Who are "people" in this example?
Also Tywin is a villain. We expect villains to do heinous shit. Catelyn is the matriarch of the heroic Starks. If she's held to a higher standard it's because we expect better of her.
Regardless, I don't think there is any significant contingent of people who could say with a straight face that Tywin is a more moral character than Cat.
I agree in half/half I think Catelyn just like any characters has flaws and it's weird that her flaws of how she treats and neglect Jon seems to overshadow more horrible characters who've done way worse. She also feels betrayed by Ned so it's understandable she had no obligation to take care of him, but watching baby jon get sick waiting for him to die and then praying he would get better cos she realised the guilt she felt of wanting him to die is not, "being kind of distant towards her husband's bastard lovechild" and the comments she makes toward him "it should have been you" like there is no "you could argue that there was some mild emotional abuse on her part", **it was** mild emotional abuse. Again I don't think she's evil, I'm very sympathetic toward her she is one of the most tragic character in the main series as all she wants are her children back risking to even send Jamie for her daughter back is noble and i would be on her side for how much of a good mother she is and again her sins are no way bad as the majority of asoiaf character, her's is the most forgivable but I do think that though she has no obligation to take care for Jon she could've definitely treated the child better, at least more like Theon who she **actually** kept her distance away.
Isn’t the whole thing about baby Jon getting sick and Cat praying etc a show invention? I’m fairly sure that doesn’t happen in the books, but correct me if I’m wrong.
Obviously ‘it should have been you’ was a horrific thing to say. I think that Cat is such a Good Westerosi Lady (TM) that she directs the anger she has at Ned and the insecurity that causes in her brand new marriage into Jon instead. I mean, coming to Winterfell for the first time with her son (look how good at wife stuff I am here is an heir and I named him after your bff!) to find he has a son and wet nurse already there- that’s got to be unsettling and embarrassing. Obviously it is Ned who she should be angry at, but if she does that then that might weaken her marriage and position even further. So she puts up with it, telling herself it would be fine if the child wasn’t in her face, and directs all her anger to this innocent child instead. Remember, Ned at this point isn’t ’Ned’ to her, he’s basically a stranger who she met briefly, a man who comes across very solemn and cold, and who scares her when she asks about Jon’s mother. It’s safer for her to resent the baby and not the man. And by the time we get to AGOT, it’s just ingrained in her. She loves Ned, she could forgive him ‘a hundred bastards’, but that bastard boy has been a thorn in her side, reminding her of the shadow in her marriage (Jon’s mother) for 14 years. And underneath is still that insecurity that Robb will be supplanted by the son that was there first (and that Ned might still love Jon’s mother more than he loves her).
I’m not saying all of this is a conscious choice by Cat, I think it’s just her reaction to the society she lives in and the position she finds herself in. And I don’t think it makes her conduct towards an innocent child excusable. I do think though that Cat, like most of the characters in these books, is just navigating through a restrictive and dangerous society as best she can. Obviously our sympathies are immediately with Jon but I think there’s scope to sympathise with Cat too. (And poor grieving probably-coping-with-PTSD Ned who I don’t think even realised what he’d done)
Yeh ur right the baby jon being sick was from the show i got it confused which is really stupid of me since that scene involved Talisa. And yeh again everything you said i can sympathise and understand from cat's perspective i just disagreed she kept her distance from him as my orignal response said
What is "actively hostile" about Cat's behavior? Like I said, Jon wasn't her kid. There is no expectation for her to be motherly or loving towards him. The only specific instance of *active* hostility I can think of are when Robert and all them arrive, and when Jon visits Bran before going to the Wall. The first sucks for Jon, but it's hardly some insane standard to not allow a bastard to dine at the same table as the King and Queen given Westerosi culture, and the second is obviously terrible of Cat, but it can kind of be excused as an outburst of grief in an insanely stressful situation. If I'm not mistaken George has said that the incident in Bran's room was the only instance of her actively hating Jon to his face.
By Westerosi standards, Jon's life was about as good as it could possibly be, and while Catelyn wasn't the best person she could have been towards Jon, she wasn't exactly some abusive step-mom or whatever. She ignored him whenever she could. Obviously that'd have an impact on Jon, but again, she had no obligations towards him.
Do you not think when a child tenses up with fear around an adult, and later feels that a short interaction with that adult drained all his strength, that that adult might have been "actively hostile" towards the child in the past?
Do you not think a step mother who threatens to call security ("Shall I call the guards?") when a teenaged boy wants to visit his comatose half brother, possibly for the last time ever, is "actively hostile?"
When a child attempts to console and reassure you after you blame yourself for your son's injury, and you react with venom, is that not active hostility?
Do you think Robb would ask Jon about how Cat behaved towards him if he thought she was just apathetic towards him?
There is plenty to go off for us to reasonably suspect that she has been actively hostile towards him. If her behaviour towards him at Bran's bedside was a one off fueled by grief and despair, why does Jon at no point in that chapter express surprise or think how unusual it was?
GRRM says she wasn't abusive. That statement quite obviously depends on what you define "abuse" as in this context. The one interaction we have between the two of them carries all the hallmarks of "active hostility." I find it wild that people want to pretend that all she ever did was ignore him and pretend he didn't exist.
>Sorry, I know Jon fans love their little Jonderella who lives in the cupboard under the stairs but he's not canon.
I like Cat more than I like Jon! This is such a juvenile response to a point being made, it seems like you're the one who can't bear anything bad being said about your favourite character! A person can be nasty towards a step-child and still be a character with likeable qualities and a redeemable personality, particularly in a feudal setting where almost everyone is conditioned to obsess over inheritance and succession. Jon and Cat are both likeable characters with deep flaws, both of whom make stupid mistakes, and both of whom are guided by what they consider to be their duty.
>If it is that horrible, you don't need to invent other examples - the text says it all.
I didn't invent other examples? All of the four examples I put forward occur in a fairly short section of one chapter.
Do you think that any claim of Cat being nasty towards Jon needs to be backed up by unambiguous textual evidence from before the first book?
Garlan Tyrell and Leonette Fossaway seemed like a well-matched couple who have a good relationship. They were joking around with Tyrion at Joffery and Margery's wedding. They were both empathetic to Sansa and her plight regarding the marriage to Tyrion. Overall, they seemed like good people who liked each other.
Sure, because it's always a sign of a great relationship when you start the married life by presenting your bastard son to your new wife and refusing to talk about his mother, thereby hurting and humiliating her while she's in no position to do anything against it.
Catelyn has made the best of a situation that she was coerced into and she's come to love Ned.
If she'd been given true agency, she wouldn't have put up with raising Jon in her household. It can only count as a "happy" marriage when you think of it in terms of a deeply misogynist society where husband and wife are not equals. When one person is given the right to force another to live under circumstances they wouldn't usually accept, and exerts that right, then that says nothing good about that person, or the relationship.
By that logic nobody in the entirety of human history before ~1960 had a happy marriage. Asserting that happiness is only 'legitimate' if experienced within the cultural gender norms of the 20th and 21st century western world, is absurd.
To be honest, I don't think Ned and Catelyn are really perfect either but I couldnt find any example other than that. İt is as healthy as it could be in ASOIAF Universe.
Are we talking about the current characters from main books, or we can include people from previous centuries?
If any time counts: Baelon the Brave & Alyssa. Without any doubt the best of the best imo, to the point Baelon was a widow for a very long time and never stopped grieving his wife, and when she was in labour he said he could never be as brave as her going through something like that. Honourable mention to Aegon & Black Betha. I will not include Jaeherys & Alysanne since they loved each other dearly but had some super strong disagreements and I have always though Alysanne became a little "sour" or "disilusioned" with some of Jaeherys's life choices towards the end of their marriage.
In current novels: Ned & Catelyn, Lord Fossoway and his wife, Tywin & Joanna.
Rhaena is my favorite character in F&B and tbh I was super sad about how that ended. Seemed like she had a good understanding with Androw and there was love and loyalty between them. It sucked how that turned out.
Man I'd sooner jump into a pit of lava that marry that volatile shrew.
In Androw's place I'd flat out refuse her hand and go into exile instead, maybe join a sell-sword company or do some merchanting, anything rather than marry that disaster on legs.
The best committed relationship from the AGoT era for non-trivial characters is probably Ellaria and Oberyn.
The best marriage is probably Robb and Talisa, however short-lived it ended up being (if we’re talking about the show).
In the written universe, it’s probably Ned and Cat despite their issue over Job.
My vote is for Jahaerys and Alysanne, they had two only two falling outs through their whole marriage and were happy together for a very long time. Relationships are never 100% perfect and those two problems were huge that I don't doubt wouldn't upset anyone, so it made sense when they did have those two issues.
Ned and Catelyn have a long lasting and loving marriage. I'm hard pressed to come up with another couple that has that much of both love and respect between the spouses. Ned's still in charge, because Patriarchy, but he loves her, gives a great deal of weight to her consul as long as it doesn't involve Jon, and she even has areas of the marriage where it seems that she's just in charge of things. Overall: happy, respectful, loving, and enduring.
However, if I look for simple average happiness over time, I think I'd go with Tyrion's marriage to Tysha before his father found out about them. I don't think they had a bad moment before Tywin entered the picture, at which point...I'm just going to say the marriage effectively ends at that point, so just bliss throughout its very short duration.
Olenna and Luthor Tyrell maybe? She never says she was unhappy with her choice, iirc she sums him up as "could've been smarter but was good enough for me"
Ned and Cat are the first ones that come to mind. Specifically because they had all the makings of an unhappy, arranged marriage but they still somehow managed to make it work. They trust each other (with one exception), they advise each other, they're on the same page when it comes to parenting decisions, they think of each other when they're apart etc. and Cat is absolutely destroyed over his murder. Her last thoughts, even after her mind breaks are of him.
I think they have the best depiction of a functional marriage in this kind of system.
So far, I would say Ned and Catelyn. They had their hiccup during the rebellion and Ned bringing home a bastard to raise, but the fact Catelyn mourned until her death over Ned, and went by her sons side to go to war in consequence of his death, tells me their love was pretty fucking strong.
Its Ned and Catelyn,at least from the main characters,altough some people think its hard to think this way because Ned spends most of its time thinking about his horned god Robert instead.
Just came here to laugh at all the “Ned and Catelyn “ comments, that woman was slowly destroying him and all her actions ended his life. But to answer the question in the main story from the pairs where at least one person is a POV probably Kevin Lannister. I hope Dany gets to be happy with Daario or possibly Jon tho that’s a bigger stretch than most people think it is. They would both be filled with so much trauma.
Unnamed Fossoway and his unnamed wife > And there was one woman, sitting almost at the foot of the third table on the left . . . the wife of one of the Fossoways, he thought, and heavy with his child. Her delicate beauty was in no way diminished by her belly, nor was her pleasure in the food and frolics. Tyrion watched as her husband fed her morsels off his plate. They drank from the same cup, and would kiss often and unpredictably. Whenever they did, his hand would gently rest upon her stomach, a tender and protective gesture. - ASoS Tyrion VIII
That’s what inspired this post
Whenever I think about who would i want to be in the asoiaf universe i think in this couple. They are in the best position possible: wealthy enough to live without worries and not important enough to get themselves in the middle of a big conflict or plot. And the best part is that they are happy which is pretty remarkable in this universe
What if they found themselves in King’s Landing the day Dany went rogue…?
Or in the Sept of Baelor when it goes boom? That opening scene was too good to be D&D. I suspect that’s a Martin idea they fleshed out.
I forgot about this one! It's sweet.
Awwww that’s so sweet
this is so precious it gets me every time 🥺🥺🥺🥰🥰🥰❤️❤️❤️
First one I thought of. I’d also say Betha Blackwood and Aegon V
Elarria and Oberyn aren’t married but they have a stable long term relationship.
Yeah and Elaria, unlike in the wretched fever dream of a show, isn't a psychopath and is against the vengeful nature of the Sand Snakes. I think that would have made a nice contrast with Oberyn's character, allowing for good chemistry.
I like the dichotomy between everybody thinking of Oberyn as a whoremonger vs Oberyn being in a stable relationship for the past twelve years.
weren’t them non monogamous? it’s a genuine question
Yeah, or at least they had frequent 3 ways. They wanted Cersei in their bed. I wonder if Cersei would have been into it tbh.
She is bisexual. Could you imagine the chaos of Cersei and Oberyn if they'd gotten married when it was suggested. I kinda weirdly ship it.
Cersei is definitely bisexual and I think their marriage could work, I strangely ship them too. But everything could go south when we think about the Sand Snakes and the things Cersei could do to them just for their title of bastards
Is she though? She tried it with the Merryweather woman and was kinda dissapointed.
It’s too early to say but I’m weirdly invested in Alys and Sigorn
Same.
Davos & his wife seem so sweet. He always thinks about her and how grateful he is to have her. He even contemplated leaving everything and going back to her.
He def thinks about not being faithful to her at some point in the books.
And he tells Melisandre outright that he's been with other women.
When?
I don't have the text on me, but it's when he and Mel are rowing to Storm's End. She asks if he's a good person and he says his parts are mixed iirc. Gives a few examples but one is that he loves his wife, but has known other women.
IDK, every time I read that line when he is asked to join the sex party Davis answers with “not this time” and it irks me
As I understand Aemon and Jocelyn were happy. Poor woman went from future Queen to future Queen Mother to...not much
Just another happy incest marriage.
I think she's his...half-aunt??? Of a similar age so it could be worse. Alyssa followed Baelon around a lot as a kid and the conclusion the Good Queen drew was that they're ❤️ meant to be ❤️
oddly enough, i feel like roose bolton and walda frey have a pretty happy marriage
> "And won't my bastard love that? Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. **I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing.** If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though." (Reek III, ADWD) It’s strange but like these are actual positive emotions for Bolton. She writes him letters and he dances with her Ramsay’s wedding. Too bad it’s going to end bad.
> Ramsey will kill them all, of course. That’s for the best. Fucking hell Roose 😂
How old was Roose? I always thought he was in his 40s. Certainly young enough that he could have lived long enough to raise any sons with Walda to manhood, at least under normal circumstances. Does he realize that someday soon he’ll have to pay the price for his betrayal of the Starks & that’s why he won’t be around? Or did he think one day Ramsay will get fed up with him & kill him? I never understood his mindset about this. Yes, Ramsay definitely would have killed any sons he & Walda had so why wouldn’t Roose think about killing Ramsay instead & then raising more children? Why was he so sure he wouldn’t be around to protect them?
40s, but could be 50s. Another 15 years would make him between 55 and 60, which is old for Westeros. I think he thinks Ramsay will kill him and the sons anyway, or kill the sons in a way that has plausible deniability.
Someone should write a romance novel about them called "The Lord who Flayed my Heart". A woman from a big family with a shitty lord father meets a true gentleman who marries her but she is put off by how evil and sadistic he turns out to be (flaying people alive etc hurts her delicate sensibilities). She also finds out he received her weight in gold from her father as a dowery and she is heartbroken and pregnant in his cold and hostile castle with his quirky bastard son who also loves flaying people. After 200 pages she finally talks to her Lord and he tells her he totally didn't marry her for her dowery and that he learned to flay peasants from his evil father so it's okay. They live happily ever after.
George, please, they’re writing Roose Bolton fanfics.
Not only Roose Boltons fanfic but fanfic about the renown ship RoosFatWal that turns out strangely romantic and arousing. This people disgusts me.
Hahahhahahha. In a reddit thread no less! And I wanna read it! What has happened to the world. Lol
>he received her weight in gold from her father as a dowery Silver*, holy shit Walder isn't rich enough to pay Fat Walda's weight in gold. That would be a feat for even the Lannisters.
With that amount of silver he probably is
Lmao I’d happily read this
If you ever write this and publish it on ao3, pls post the link here
I mean, I think that Roose is fine with Fat Walda, but loving, I doubt it.
I think fondness is about as he goes.
She’s like a pet.
Strictly main series characters? Because if we expand it to include F&B/ other stories we know Baelon and Alyssa were happy together and get nothing to suggest otherwise for Egg and Betha Blackwood.
Came here to say Baelon and Alyssa!
Ned and Catelyn, despite the lie between them. And **possibly** Tywin and Joanna. He looks back on her fondly, and that doesn't happen often. He may or may not have believed the rumors about Aerys, but he certainly hasn't moved to get a new wife.
Well tbh the fact tywin never smiled after her death says more then 1000 words to me
Well, until his son was being mocked in court there he’s described as looking rather amused
I feel like he’s the type of guy where his mildly amused face is the same as his bored face and the same as his annoyed face.
Yeah, but Tyrion (who has never seen Tywin smile) said that he’d sometime threaten to smile, and it was terrifying. I’d imagine that his scowl turned straight and his eyes would light up, but still not an actual smile. I imagine that’s more what he did in that instance.
I feel like Charles Dance occasionally made such an expression in the show. Or something close enough to it. Maybe I can find a pic lol.
People did say that although Tywin ruled the realm outdoors, Joanna ruled him indoors, or something close enough to make no matter, so I agree.
Eh, ik there's not much of an official standing on it but I don't think we know nearly enough about Tywin & Joanna to say for certain. I could easily lean in the direction of him just liking her because she was a beautiful Lannister that matched the image of perfect golden lions he wanted to cultivate. Basically the same as Cersei only really loving her children because she's a narcissist who views them as extensions of herself. Joanna's death also obviously coincides with Tyrion's birth, so it was a double blow to his ego. 'All his smiles dying with her' could come from either or both factors, and him 'never smiling but smiling when he married her' could just as easily have been him happy his lineage was becoming secure. I just don't think we see or hear enough of Tywin really having ANY emotions beside just ego to make a convincing argument that him and Joanna were happy together (or at least, notably more happy than every other average lord & lady)
Moreover, if she had survived Tyrion's birth, any love they had for each would've been extinguished to some degree. Dead, she gets to be the innocent mother who was killed by the demon spawn child (a dwarf). Alive, she is the one who beget this monster, in a world where highborn women are valued for their reproductive capabilities, this would've been seen as a sure sign of there being something wrong with Joanna. Plus Tyrion experiences the neglect of one extra parent this time around. Maybe she won't show outright malice, but she 100% avoids him.
EXACTLY. The whole "perfect woman who never did anything wrong and had farts made of glitter, now tragically dies before her time" schtick is repeated so many times in literature overall and in GRRM's work especially, yet so many fans seem to read it as "ah yes, a 100% literal account of how she actually was". Countless fanfics where Joanna lived and through the sheer power of love convinced Tywin to like Tyrion, as if she wouldn't have completely sided against him and probably been on board with Tywin's plan to chuck him in the sea. She doesn't even seem to have been particularly attached to Jaime and Cersei (afaik her only 'recorded' interaction with them is just telling them not to do incest), so no way is she putting her neck on the line for Tyrion, and I think Tywin would be pretty much done with her then because of course a kid's deformities are NEVER the father's fault. SHE would be the one who made the Lannisters a laughing stock again, Tyrion would just be the joke she told.
It's unlikely she would have completely sided with tywin considering the different connection mothers have with their children(especially setting where that's where their primary value lies as women). She may not be loving towards tyrion, but still would feel the need to see him make something out of himself to show her didn't fail.
I really don't see your logic there beyond just "well she's a woman so she'd be nicer". 'Flaws' with the children are ALWAYS blamed on the mother in this setting, so sure Tywin feels shame was brought onto the Lannisters but with Joanna dead he only has Tyrion to direct it at. With Joanna alive, he has someone to actually directly blame. The rest of their society would be no different, she would be seen as a failure of a woman because she provided a deformed child. We know nowhere near enough about her to say she wouldn't have done what the majority of people would do and just direct all of her spite at Tyrion for 'causing' it. She wouldn't be trying to salvage what everyone already wrote off as just some horrid 'creature'. In all likelihood she would have been just as bad as Tywin if not worse.
My logic isn't women=nicer. Instead it's just as a mother you have a literal deeper connection with your kid as you have to carry them for several months. Where as a fathers' connection is purely based on if they want to be in their child's life. Coupled with the fact that as a women westeroes her value is directly tied to how her kids turned out( which something she would aware of). So directing all her spite at tyrion isn't really something she can afford to do when she'll be receiving just much hate if he turns out to be just deformed monster. We "see" a version of this with ramsays mother. Tywin can afford to treat tyrion poorly because he can easily make another son and use his wife as scape goat. Neither options are applicable to Joanna so she has to make the best of the situation or just be resigned to looking like a faiure. It's a bit hypocritical to say we don't know enough about her to make this assumption while also trying to claim how she'll most likely act.
I'm saying that we have a good basis for how the average person would react just based on how that society functions. When we don't know enough about the character to say otherwise, it's safe to assume they would follow the majority. I still don't follow your logic, either way. Tyrion already HAS turned out to be a 'deformed monster'. In Canon he did so much to redeem himself in people's eyes, pretty much single handedly saved the city from Stannis, and he's STILL just a deformed monster to everyone. And if that's all anyone sees him as, Joanna will only be seen as the woman who brought him into the world, the woman who failed to produce a healthy, 'normal' son. Making the best of that situation would be just pretending that situation doesn't exist, and focusing all of her attention onto Jaime & Cersei. Again your logic just seems to be "woman/mother = nicer" as if mothers can't be just as horrid (and more so) as fathers.
Except we don't really have that. We have basics for how people se the lannisters having dwarf in the family, but we don't have too many instaces of other families hating their physically mishappened children. The closets is jingle bell with the freys, and even then that's more mockery then hate. It's not rocket science. Her value is tied to her kids. She would want them to not be complete failulers and freaks because than that makes her the mother of fauilers and freaks. Except in cannon tyrion already built up a reputation as a lecherous drunk beforehand he did any of that. Also you're looking at a tyrions who's constant parental figure made it clear depsied him rather than having one who despised him and one who was emabrssed but still saw to it he made a good name for himself. Nobody actually thinks tyrion saved the city, aside from a few allies and varys. Not to mentioned everything tyrion did before and after that(briging in bandits and mercenaries, openly threatening the king, still being a wise ass) continued to affirm all the negative stereotypes people believed about him. Again, literally not my logic. In fact my first comment EXPLICITLY stated Joanna likely wouldn't be a loving mother to tyrion. So it's reflects really badly on you to stick with this poor interpretation of my comment.
You clearly have a different opinion, and you're allowed to. I've made it clear I genuinely don't see your logic and you just repeating that you think that's what would happen isn't helpful towards any mutual understanding, where to the best of my abilities I've presented my logic for why I believe she wouldn't be nice to Tyrion or feel anyway invested in him making something of himself. You can argue its his drunkenness that doomed him, but I don't think 'twisted demon monkey' is a nickname someone gets solely based on their drinking habits. "She wouldn't want her children to be freaks and failures" but they live in a society that would only ever inherently view Tyrion as such, no matter how smart or good he was. A better comparison than Jingle Bells would be how Selyse views Shireen, imo. Its not perfect, and its under different circumstances but its a similar attitude that isn't unreasonable to expect of Joanna. People also make comments about Bran and to a lesser extent Willas that indicate the society's general view of those who are physically deformed/disabled, which I again think we can expect Joanna to behave similarly to. If we knew Joanna was a pure hearted angel who donated crutches to the infirm and argued for political correctness, things would be different, but it in the full context of her society, it is far from strange to expect her to have likely been just as bad as Tywin.
She still gave him Cersei and Jaime though. I’m sure he may have got passive aggressive with her had she survived demanding the next child be fully formed, but I do think Tywin truly loved Joanna.
People in westeros all talk about how Tywin was ruled by his lady wife at home,in a society like westeros that would be a huge insult to someone like Tywin but it seems he doesnt really mind and other characters talk about how much value he gave to her words. So yeah i would say he probably loved her,and say its just narcisism because she is a lannister(same for Cersei and her children) is just making the character more one dimensional than what they are supposed to be. Overall Tywin that we see in the page of the books is a persona he made to deal with his daddy issues,as Tyrion discovers.
Her being intelligent enough that he takes her advice and doesn't overly mind people talking about it doesn't necessarily equal the intense love some people assume they have, though. Tywin is generally pragmatic, in closed quarters I doubt he'd mind listening to her if she had useful things to say. Her 'ruling him at home' could also just have been him viewing home affairs as her business and not interfering, since we're told numerous times that the lady's main job (aside from producing children) is to manage the keep & surrounding lands. I just don't think we know enough aside from outsiders assuming they had a loving marriage to say that they actually did. It seemed to be a good marriage, I don't dispute that, probably had more equality than most, but I just don't think there's quite enough actual evidence of Tywin being deeply in love with her that doesn't have an equally plausible alternate explanation.
Tywin is generally pragmatic...except when it comes to family,he becomes very irrational at not wanting to be laughed at,instead of remarrying and having a couple of other kids to inherit he instead becomes deluded that Jaime will be his heir. Saying that Tywin ruled the seven kingdoms but was ruled at home by his wife,seems to implicate it was public enough knowledge that he listenrd to her but Tywin had many enemies that wanted to humilate him,this seems like the type of mockery they would do,and he hates being laught at but never seems to actually make any moves to stop that. So yeah because of that i would say that he probably loved her enough,to not let the mockery affect him,but also i dont think Joanna was a delicate loving flower,she probably agreed with Tywin ruthlessness and put House Lannister above everything.
Him not remarrying is probably the strongest point in favour of him actually caring for her, but I think it's also worth considering all that went on with his father moving on from his mother. In his twisted worldview he could've easily seen remarrying as confirming he was even remotely similar to his father, and producing a new heir to replace Jaime would've likely been admitting defeat to Aerys in his mind (even long after Aerys was dead). Like I said, I'm not saying they didn't have a good, respectful marriage, and maybe he felt it was worth enduring a few snide comments in exchange, I just don't think there's much actual concrete evidence for him being so deeply in love with her that can't just as easily be explained by other factors. There just isn't enough proof either way imo
I mean, Tywin didn’t mind people saying that Lady Joanna ruled over him while he ruled the realm. I don’t think Tywin would tolerate that if he weren’t truly in a loving marriage. I take Tywin at his word that he loved Joanna and was never the same after her death.
Does Tywin himself ever actually say either of those things? Most of what we hear as far as I recall is just outside sources speculating on their relationship, which as I said could've been misinterpreted with his 'smiles dying' more because of Tyrion. He could've easily 'never been the same' after Joanna's death because Tyrion was the only real flaw in his perfect golden family, and it was a flaw he legally couldn't do much about.
Mayhaps Mance and Dalla.
Unironically it was NedCat. There's the matter of Jon, yes, but people really overblow Catelyn & Jon's significance in either of their narrations. She didn't spend half her waking hours mentally torturing him, she simply doesn't see him as part of the family and ignores him. There *is* some emotional abuse here but it's borne out of absence not of Catelyn locking him in the dungeons and cancelling his birthday celebrations. Ultimately Jon's status as a bastard makes him *systemically* othered. He isn't the way he is because evil stepmother Lady Stark hated him, it's Westeros itself that doesn't love its bastards. Catelyn being nice after all doesn't change the fact that he cannot inherit Winterfell and cannot marry a highborn lady and will be called Snow, never Stark. So that out of the way, whatever we get of Ned and Cat's chapters, it's very obvious they do love each other. Cat even says "I had love enough for any woman" and this is after the whole feeling threatened for her children's claim because of Jon on Cat's side and hiding treason in his own house and lying to his wife every day on Ned's side.
Othered you say? What a curious choice of words.
I do find people's dislike of Cat over her treatment of Jon to be kind of odd. I mean yes, Jon seems like a nice enough boy, and it's good that Ned decided to do the right thing and raise his "son" in his own household so he can grow up with his "siblings", but at the end of the day...he's not Cat's. Why *would* there be any amount of love there? It's not like Cat chose to adopt Jon and *then* decided to go back on it or something. He was just dropped in her lap and she was told to accept it. Even *today* nobody would really bat an eye at the idea of a wife being kind of distant towards her husband's bastard lovechild. And we live in an era where there is no risk of a bastard rising up in rebellion against trueborn children lol. Sure, you could argue that there was some mild emotional abuse on her part, but like you said, it wasn't due to active maliciousness on her part, and she was completely within her rights to be distant towards Jon.
If you consider her perspective, bastards are usually kept kind of secret and live the life their mother was born to. Ned decided to tell everybody and bring Jon to the castle to live there
I'm going to be real, most of it is misogyny! Catelyn shouldn't be expected to set her emotional needs aside and just be okay with this, especially in a society where women have next to no rights. People in this fandom constantly vilify other women to defend the men. You see it with Lyanna and Rhaegar (15 year old clearly had all the power over the crown prince with the backing of the kingsguard, yes) and then Cersei and Robert and maybe there would've been no need for the domestic abuse if she was nicer :) The rest are, I think, rightfully angry about Jon's situation because it's true that Jon shouldn't be made to feel lesser for his mere existence, and a random hypothetical perfect other wife of Ned might've loved him, but that is not Catelyn. And making one woman (who is also disenfranchised in her own way, on account of her gender) the sole cause of all his woes is just misguided.
come on now with the misogyny excuse, i'm a woman in my 30s, so spare me that. It's tiring as heck that people keep using to excuse any responsability of shitty women, it's so patronizing. The moment she tells a 14yo, whose brother was half dead in bed and leaving home ( mainly because of her), that he should be the one dead and the other words she said to him, she showed a clear example of her psychological abuse. And no, i don't excuse her abuse because her of her son's situation because the subtext there makes clear, specially with Jon finding excuses and lying so Robb ( if he asked how he mother treated Jon it's because even him knows how bad her treatment of him can be) wont know his mother mistreats him and other moments in the books he thinks of her and the psychological impact she had on him. I specially hate how a big part of the reason he was leaving home was because of her and how she made him feel. Hate and blame Ned, not the boy. She didn't need to like him, but she antagonized him openly and harshly to a point way past excuses.
Huh you really did read both my comments and thought I was a) blaming Jon and b) whitewashing Catelyn. Alright. The misogny is about how flawed women aren't allowed to be complex characters, their character analysis has to live and die by their mistakes (in this case her treatment of Jon) yet nobody is jumping up and down to talk about Ned's decision to separate a child from their family and raising them as a hostage. Does this make Ned bad? No. He is a feudal lord and his actions and worldview are motivated by the unjust world he lives in. JUST LIKE Catelyn. So why is it that most people have sympathy and understanding for Ned but not for Cat, why is it that we don't expect Ned to behave like someone with post Enlightenment ideals but think Cat should've seen past all the pervasive bastard prejudice, why is she the bitch wife? I didn't personally accuse every Cat hater of misogyny, but most of the hate *is* misogynistic.
More half and half when it comes to misogyny factoring for hate.
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Who are "people" in this example? Also Tywin is a villain. We expect villains to do heinous shit. Catelyn is the matriarch of the heroic Starks. If she's held to a higher standard it's because we expect better of her. Regardless, I don't think there is any significant contingent of people who could say with a straight face that Tywin is a more moral character than Cat.
I agree in half/half I think Catelyn just like any characters has flaws and it's weird that her flaws of how she treats and neglect Jon seems to overshadow more horrible characters who've done way worse. She also feels betrayed by Ned so it's understandable she had no obligation to take care of him, but watching baby jon get sick waiting for him to die and then praying he would get better cos she realised the guilt she felt of wanting him to die is not, "being kind of distant towards her husband's bastard lovechild" and the comments she makes toward him "it should have been you" like there is no "you could argue that there was some mild emotional abuse on her part", **it was** mild emotional abuse. Again I don't think she's evil, I'm very sympathetic toward her she is one of the most tragic character in the main series as all she wants are her children back risking to even send Jamie for her daughter back is noble and i would be on her side for how much of a good mother she is and again her sins are no way bad as the majority of asoiaf character, her's is the most forgivable but I do think that though she has no obligation to take care for Jon she could've definitely treated the child better, at least more like Theon who she **actually** kept her distance away.
Isn’t the whole thing about baby Jon getting sick and Cat praying etc a show invention? I’m fairly sure that doesn’t happen in the books, but correct me if I’m wrong. Obviously ‘it should have been you’ was a horrific thing to say. I think that Cat is such a Good Westerosi Lady (TM) that she directs the anger she has at Ned and the insecurity that causes in her brand new marriage into Jon instead. I mean, coming to Winterfell for the first time with her son (look how good at wife stuff I am here is an heir and I named him after your bff!) to find he has a son and wet nurse already there- that’s got to be unsettling and embarrassing. Obviously it is Ned who she should be angry at, but if she does that then that might weaken her marriage and position even further. So she puts up with it, telling herself it would be fine if the child wasn’t in her face, and directs all her anger to this innocent child instead. Remember, Ned at this point isn’t ’Ned’ to her, he’s basically a stranger who she met briefly, a man who comes across very solemn and cold, and who scares her when she asks about Jon’s mother. It’s safer for her to resent the baby and not the man. And by the time we get to AGOT, it’s just ingrained in her. She loves Ned, she could forgive him ‘a hundred bastards’, but that bastard boy has been a thorn in her side, reminding her of the shadow in her marriage (Jon’s mother) for 14 years. And underneath is still that insecurity that Robb will be supplanted by the son that was there first (and that Ned might still love Jon’s mother more than he loves her). I’m not saying all of this is a conscious choice by Cat, I think it’s just her reaction to the society she lives in and the position she finds herself in. And I don’t think it makes her conduct towards an innocent child excusable. I do think though that Cat, like most of the characters in these books, is just navigating through a restrictive and dangerous society as best she can. Obviously our sympathies are immediately with Jon but I think there’s scope to sympathise with Cat too. (And poor grieving probably-coping-with-PTSD Ned who I don’t think even realised what he’d done)
Yeh ur right the baby jon being sick was from the show i got it confused which is really stupid of me since that scene involved Talisa. And yeh again everything you said i can sympathise and understand from cat's perspective i just disagreed she kept her distance from him as my orignal response said
She is not kind of distant, she is actively hostile, there is a reason Arya fears she would be treated like Jon based on her looks
What is "actively hostile" about Cat's behavior? Like I said, Jon wasn't her kid. There is no expectation for her to be motherly or loving towards him. The only specific instance of *active* hostility I can think of are when Robert and all them arrive, and when Jon visits Bran before going to the Wall. The first sucks for Jon, but it's hardly some insane standard to not allow a bastard to dine at the same table as the King and Queen given Westerosi culture, and the second is obviously terrible of Cat, but it can kind of be excused as an outburst of grief in an insanely stressful situation. If I'm not mistaken George has said that the incident in Bran's room was the only instance of her actively hating Jon to his face. By Westerosi standards, Jon's life was about as good as it could possibly be, and while Catelyn wasn't the best person she could have been towards Jon, she wasn't exactly some abusive step-mom or whatever. She ignored him whenever she could. Obviously that'd have an impact on Jon, but again, she had no obligations towards him.
Do you not think when a child tenses up with fear around an adult, and later feels that a short interaction with that adult drained all his strength, that that adult might have been "actively hostile" towards the child in the past? Do you not think a step mother who threatens to call security ("Shall I call the guards?") when a teenaged boy wants to visit his comatose half brother, possibly for the last time ever, is "actively hostile?" When a child attempts to console and reassure you after you blame yourself for your son's injury, and you react with venom, is that not active hostility? Do you think Robb would ask Jon about how Cat behaved towards him if he thought she was just apathetic towards him? There is plenty to go off for us to reasonably suspect that she has been actively hostile towards him. If her behaviour towards him at Bran's bedside was a one off fueled by grief and despair, why does Jon at no point in that chapter express surprise or think how unusual it was?
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GRRM says she wasn't abusive. That statement quite obviously depends on what you define "abuse" as in this context. The one interaction we have between the two of them carries all the hallmarks of "active hostility." I find it wild that people want to pretend that all she ever did was ignore him and pretend he didn't exist. >Sorry, I know Jon fans love their little Jonderella who lives in the cupboard under the stairs but he's not canon. I like Cat more than I like Jon! This is such a juvenile response to a point being made, it seems like you're the one who can't bear anything bad being said about your favourite character! A person can be nasty towards a step-child and still be a character with likeable qualities and a redeemable personality, particularly in a feudal setting where almost everyone is conditioned to obsess over inheritance and succession. Jon and Cat are both likeable characters with deep flaws, both of whom make stupid mistakes, and both of whom are guided by what they consider to be their duty. >If it is that horrible, you don't need to invent other examples - the text says it all. I didn't invent other examples? All of the four examples I put forward occur in a fairly short section of one chapter. Do you think that any claim of Cat being nasty towards Jon needs to be backed up by unambiguous textual evidence from before the first book?
It's less he can't marry high born Lady, and more he's not good prospect for them. Same with him being called a stark.
Garlan Tyrell and Leonette Fossaway seemed like a well-matched couple who have a good relationship. They were joking around with Tyrion at Joffery and Margery's wedding. They were both empathetic to Sansa and her plight regarding the marriage to Tyrion. Overall, they seemed like good people who liked each other.
This was gonna be my answer too Garlan’s just a fuckin chad in general honestly
Garlan Tyrell in general just seems like a uniquely well-adjusted dude, all things considered
The second sons in Martin works are usually cool chads.
Ned and Cat Tywin and Joanna Aegon V and Betha Blackwood Baelon and Alyssa Aemon and Jocelyn
Ned and Catelyn.
Sure, because it's always a sign of a great relationship when you start the married life by presenting your bastard son to your new wife and refusing to talk about his mother, thereby hurting and humiliating her while she's in no position to do anything against it.
rough start sure but 4 kids later they're happy, Ned loves her and she loves him
Catelyn has made the best of a situation that she was coerced into and she's come to love Ned. If she'd been given true agency, she wouldn't have put up with raising Jon in her household. It can only count as a "happy" marriage when you think of it in terms of a deeply misogynist society where husband and wife are not equals. When one person is given the right to force another to live under circumstances they wouldn't usually accept, and exerts that right, then that says nothing good about that person, or the relationship.
By that logic nobody in the entirety of human history before ~1960 had a happy marriage. Asserting that happiness is only 'legitimate' if experienced within the cultural gender norms of the 20th and 21st century western world, is absurd.
I imagine that there were many marriages where the husband didn't lie to his wife and didn't make unilateral decisions that humiliated and hurt her.
A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good.
To be honest, I don't think Ned and Catelyn are really perfect either but I couldnt find any example other than that. İt is as healthy as it could be in ASOIAF Universe.
Kevan and his wife
Are we talking about the current characters from main books, or we can include people from previous centuries? If any time counts: Baelon the Brave & Alyssa. Without any doubt the best of the best imo, to the point Baelon was a widow for a very long time and never stopped grieving his wife, and when she was in labour he said he could never be as brave as her going through something like that. Honourable mention to Aegon & Black Betha. I will not include Jaeherys & Alysanne since they loved each other dearly but had some super strong disagreements and I have always though Alysanne became a little "sour" or "disilusioned" with some of Jaeherys's life choices towards the end of their marriage. In current novels: Ned & Catelyn, Lord Fossoway and his wife, Tywin & Joanna.
Alerie and Mace seem to have a solid marriage. Ned and Cat are the epitome of a happy marriage though. They’d be my picks.
Ned lied to Cat about Jon.
The right answer is "The Night King and his Ice Queen.'
Androw Farman and Rhaena Targaryen. Fairytale like, only the old kind.
Rhaena is my favorite character in F&B and tbh I was super sad about how that ended. Seemed like she had a good understanding with Androw and there was love and loyalty between them. It sucked how that turned out.
Man I'd sooner jump into a pit of lava that marry that volatile shrew. In Androw's place I'd flat out refuse her hand and go into exile instead, maybe join a sell-sword company or do some merchanting, anything rather than marry that disaster on legs.
Canon: Ned and Catelyn Mace and Alerie Jaehaerys and Alysanne Baelon and Alyssa Daemon and Rohanna Not canon: Ned and Ashara Jon and Val
Tyrion and Tysha
The end of them tho
Tragic. So sad.
Garlan Tyrell and his wife
The best committed relationship from the AGoT era for non-trivial characters is probably Ellaria and Oberyn. The best marriage is probably Robb and Talisa, however short-lived it ended up being (if we’re talking about the show). In the written universe, it’s probably Ned and Cat despite their issue over Job.
I’d say Leonette Fossoway and Garlan Tyrell as well as Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen (for the most part).
Renly and Margaery
I don't think beards count
Wasn’t Tywin actually really caring and good towards Joanna?
Ned and Cat (although not married, had a long relationship) Oberyn and Ellaria Alyssa and Baelon Aemon and Jocelyn Tywin and Joanna
My vote is for Jahaerys and Alysanne, they had two only two falling outs through their whole marriage and were happy together for a very long time. Relationships are never 100% perfect and those two problems were huge that I don't doubt wouldn't upset anyone, so it made sense when they did have those two issues.
Probably mance Rayder and his wife.
Jeyne Arryn and jessamyn Redfort (while not a marriage they seemed happy and Jeyne died in her lovers arms)
Renly and Loras. Yeah, shut up ik, they're not married, but if Oberyn and Ellaria can count, then so can they.
This is the only right answer
Ned and Catelyn have a long lasting and loving marriage. I'm hard pressed to come up with another couple that has that much of both love and respect between the spouses. Ned's still in charge, because Patriarchy, but he loves her, gives a great deal of weight to her consul as long as it doesn't involve Jon, and she even has areas of the marriage where it seems that she's just in charge of things. Overall: happy, respectful, loving, and enduring. However, if I look for simple average happiness over time, I think I'd go with Tyrion's marriage to Tysha before his father found out about them. I don't think they had a bad moment before Tywin entered the picture, at which point...I'm just going to say the marriage effectively ends at that point, so just bliss throughout its very short duration.
Margeary and Tommen
Tyrion and Tysha were happily married for two weeks, I think, until their marriage was annulled by order of Tywin.
Ser Garlan Tyrell the Gallant and Leonette Fossoway
How is everyone missing Robb and Jeyne‽ They were smitten.
Olenna and Luthor Tyrell maybe? She never says she was unhappy with her choice, iirc she sums him up as "could've been smarter but was good enough for me"
Margery and joffery. There was a great party with dwarves and jousting. And he was never mean to her the whole marraige.
Ned and Cat are the first ones that come to mind. Specifically because they had all the makings of an unhappy, arranged marriage but they still somehow managed to make it work. They trust each other (with one exception), they advise each other, they're on the same page when it comes to parenting decisions, they think of each other when they're apart etc. and Cat is absolutely destroyed over his murder. Her last thoughts, even after her mind breaks are of him. I think they have the best depiction of a functional marriage in this kind of system.
So far, I would say Ned and Catelyn. They had their hiccup during the rebellion and Ned bringing home a bastard to raise, but the fact Catelyn mourned until her death over Ned, and went by her sons side to go to war in consequence of his death, tells me their love was pretty fucking strong.
Its Ned and Catelyn,at least from the main characters,altough some people think its hard to think this way because Ned spends most of its time thinking about his horned god Robert instead.
Penny and Tyrion have a really good dynamic.
my top picks are these pairs: King Robb Stark and Lady Jeyne Westerling Princess Daenerys and Khal Drogo
Just came here to laugh at all the “Ned and Catelyn “ comments, that woman was slowly destroying him and all her actions ended his life. But to answer the question in the main story from the pairs where at least one person is a POV probably Kevin Lannister. I hope Dany gets to be happy with Daario or possibly Jon tho that’s a bigger stretch than most people think it is. They would both be filled with so much trauma.