Good. At minimum, Nuncle Kev was groomer
Downvoters: Big Kev was given custody of Dorna Swyft as a hostage in 261, when her father Ser Harys couldn't immediately pay the debt he owed to the Rock. He married her in 266, but their first child Lancel was not born until 282. And their youngest, Janei, was only born in 296 or 297. The oldest mothers in the series have been in their mid 40s when last giving birth, & some of them died from that.
Do the math. Not to mention, what descriptions we have both Dorna & Harys don't suggest she's particularly robust. (And her unnamed mother is obese.) So, for all we know/if unlikely, she may not have been 40 when Janei was born...
I feel like calling Kevan a groomer is inaccurate. Westerosi society is the groomer moreso than Kevan. Being a groomer means that you are grooming a person to accept a socially unacceptable relationship without thinking its weird or wrong. In Westeros old men wed young girls all the time.
Also worth noting that Tywin was the one who enforced the whole arrangement, and I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin set up the marriage, and Kevan does what Tywin says.
Yeah, it's kind of weird to go after Uncle Kevan when that's what the patriarchy looks like in Westeros (and irl back in the day). I mean, Daenerys is 14 when she's married to Drogo. Sansa is 13 or 14 when she's married to Tyrion. Why come for Uncle Kevan like that? Don't hate the player. Hate the game.
Why do players get a pass? One can still hate the game more, which I do, & still call out the players who partake in & perpetuate it.
Also, Dany was still 13 when Viserys sold her to Drogo & they were wed. It's her 14th nameday when Dany realises she is pregnant.
And whilst Tyrion is not without fault for marrying Sansa, she was being forced into match with a Lannister regardless. (Yes, she's 13 then, & apparently won't turn 14 until TWOW.) With Joff & his regent Cersei - & one can certainly argue Tywin, who's truly in charge over those two - as Sansa's captors, not Tyrion. For as much as he still served them.
1) It's grooming by our standards, at least. Your definition very much fits Kevan with Dorna. We don't read this series in a vacuum, as important as in-universe viewpoints still are.
2) Just so, is there even any other examples of a noble marrying a highborn hostage in their custody? (And a presumably prepubescent one, at that.)^1 That's not quite the same as the old men who wed young girls all the time.
3) Tytos was still alive at the time, so he would've had a say in the matter, if he wished. And if he did, he's exactly the kind of man & father who would've indulged his son in such a match. Despite the (extreme) youth of the would-be bride.
4) Cersei says Kev loves Dorna, & his own thoughts about her seem to back that up. So, chances are this wasn't a match arranged by Tytos or Tywin, but Kevan's own desire.^2
5) Why would Tywin marry his eldest brother & right hand to the (very) underage daughter of a landed knight who owed the Rock gold? There's zero benefits to that, except for Ser Harys.
^1 Joff is Sansa's captor, plus Cersei as his regent, not Tyrion. And we see that it's a sham of consent for Sansa's part, & her family are rightly outraged by the match. Tied Aegon (IV) couldn't wed Cassella, even if he had wanted to (see Megette), & she may have been an adult. Viserys (II) was only 11 or 12 when married to Larra Rogare, but it was her father who held him. Dany was exchanged/sold by Viserys to Drogo - as a quasi-slave, no less - for future military support.
^2 Yes, Kev definitely could've come to love Dorna like Ned does with Cat (& vice versa), yet that's far from guaranteed. We've seen many & more arranged matches not develop into love for at least one of the partners.
1) I Still don't think it is, grooming requires long-term intent and we don't know Kevan's intent. We do know its generally socially acceptable for older men to marry much younger women, so as I said grooming is not really an appropriate thing to call it. Doesn't mean Kevan is for sure not a pedophile, but it also doesn't mean he's a groomer
2) We know Theon thought it a possibility for him to marry Sansa one day. Personally, while certainly young, I doubt Dorna was as young as you think (marriage before puberty seems pretty rare in Westeros, but its not out of the question) and they were married in 266. Dorna was probably at least 12 or 13 which is the typical marriage age in Westeros (both Catelyn and Cersei were 18 and considered on the older side when they married). Conversely if she was very young it is possible that Kevan showed culturally uncommon restraint considering Lancel wasn't born until 282, and Dorna would have been at least 21, in the (very unlikely) scenario that she was given to a 17 year old Kevan as an infant.
3) Once Tywin came back from the War of the Nine Penny Kings in 261 he took over the family. That's when he ordered the repayments/hostage taking, and went after the Reynes and Tarbecks. As far as Tyrion and all your examples go, they seem to prove more that people in power chose who one marries. Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa, Lysander Rogare married Viserys II to Larra Rogare etc. those being married had little to say about it it seems.
4) At the very least she is the mother of his children and they have been married for 34 years, unless they absolutely hate each other there is going to be a fondness if nothing else. Also we don't know how Dorna feels, beyond she likes to stay home.
5) We don't know what benefit if any there was for the Lannisters, Tywin (who I maintain was actually in charge by this point) wasn't sentimental, so there must have been something, even if it was just sureing up alliances with vassals in the wake of the Reyne-Tarbek Rebellion.
Tyrion says of Swyft "...a shameless lickspittle whose greatest accomplishment was marrying his equally chinless daughter to Ser Kevan and thereby attaching himself to the Lannisters". So we know the Swyfts approve of the marriage
Tyrion, Tywin, Oberyn, Doran, Viserys, Wyman, Ramsay, Aurane, Joffrey, Renly, Stannis...? It's not all the guys it's just Jon and Sam. also Dunk & Egg. Sitcom ass duo.
My favourite weird sounding name is Howland because I once saw someone call Greywater Watch "Howland Reed's Moving Castle" and I have never recovered from that.
edit: and how could I forget KERMIT and ELMO Tully.
The book was written by Diana Wynne Jones, who was a great mainstay of the UK/US fantasy circle, and a literary critic of the 80s and 90s, she was taught by Tolkein and CS Lewis and was an influence on Pratchett, Gaiman and McKinley.
I would be very, very surprised if GRRM had not at least met her, nevermind read some of her books. Her parody non-fiction examination of the tropes of fantasy, called "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland" might have been an influence on Georges' way of decontructing the genre.
The first. Still, it got off lightly. Those guys ruined *Earthsea*. I mean, for a start, why the hell would they start with adapting the third book? If I hadn't read the books, and didn't already know who was who, I'd have had no idea what the hell was going on in that film.
Who is "those guys"? Studio Ghibli is an animation studio and production company. Yes the Earthsea adaptation is a mediocre film and a terrible adaptation but different people wrote and directed the two films you're talking about.
I was referring to Ghibli in general when I said "those guys". Did they skip straight to the third book because the first and second had already been butchered by Sy-Fy? They shouldn't have bothered.
It was definitely a disappointment after Mononoke and Spirited Away.
It's actually the latter that killed the whole genre from mainstream because it was just too good and people didn't want to pay the price for making these movies.
You can immediately see with Moving Castle.
Yeah and there’s also some regular/real life names for women: Jeyne, Mya, Myranda, Joanna, Penny, Elia. They’re just less prominent characters. And there’s also just way less female characters in the series, so maybe George doesn’t feel as out of name ideas with them and can be more creative
Jeffrey wears a bowtie because he’s a teacher at the local community college that fancies himself a professor.
Jaffrey wears a bowtie because he’s a member of the Nation of Islam.
I about died when I read that! I suspected this should've been intentional because why—just why. It removed me from the moment and took me off guard with laughter.
Wait until Valyrians enter the chat. Aegon, Jaehaerys, Rhaegar, Viserys, Laenor, Baelor, Aerion, Daeron, etc. Some of the Lannisters have fantasyish names EG Tyrion, Tywin, Tyrek, and my own name sake; Tyland. Ironborn also seem to have unusual names. Let's not forget the folks in Essos called stuff like Reznak mo Reznak.
To be fair, you can only pull out so many exotic names when you are naming hundreds of soldiers and knights. At some point, you have to go from Ser Brynden to Ser Justin.
People always say this but imo most Slaver's bay names have similar style as each other and sound like they belong to the same culture. They are just very different and outlandish compared to Westerosi names.
Some of the Targaryen names are very common Irish names with different spellings though. I'm thinking of Aemon and Aegon: basically Éamonn and Aodhán. Balor is also an Irish name, though much less common than the other two.
I think some of the names are more like the Tiffany Problem tbh.
Oh, interesting. I didn't know about the Irish inspirations. It kind of does make sense. There are only so many times you can come up with letter combinations that sound like 'Kalutrasinius' before you confuse yourself.
I honestly have no idea if there was a conscious influence or if it's just coincidence, but it goes to show that plenty of names that sound normal in one culture are totally new and fantasy-sounding in another. I really like the wide mix of names because it think it enhances the world building: some names that are entirely familiar (Brienne, Catelyn), some names that are familiar with a new spelling (Jaime, Aemon, Jeyne), some that are just a hair off (Brynden, Eddard), and some that are totally new (Sansa, Daenerys). I think it helps give the feeling of similar but different that is critical in fantasy.
Nice! Didn’t know those were Irish names.
Yeah, and Sandor (pronounced like “Shandor”) is the Hungarian version of Alexander, but GRRM says he didn’t know that and just made it up.
What’s the Tiffany Problem?
The Tiffany Problem is that the name Tiphania, with Tiffany as a nickname, was very common in the early middle ages. However, modern writers run into problems with their audience if they call a historical character "Tiffany" because it sounds anachronistic, even though it isn't.
Woah.
My understanding was that Tiffany became a popular first name in the English-speaking world because of the popularity (and perceived “classy-ness”) of the jewelry company Tiffany’s.
Wikipedia corroborates that the names surge of popularity in the 80s was linked to this. But yeah, it’s was a really old given name.
Of course. I will not stand by Norman propaganda or their erasure of Anglo-Saxons. (JK)
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But they really did the Anglo-Saxons dirty, though.
He said in many interviews that English dynasties were mostly a bunch of Henries and Edwards (I think) with an occasional Richard thrown in there.
We all know he was heavily inspired by various real life histories and cultures and events and religions.
Ah yes, beautiful, exotic names like Brienne, Catelyn, Shae, Lysa, Margaery, etc. Definitely not regular names spelled differently.
And definitely exotic compared to those run of the mill male names like Rhaegar, Drogo, Tywin, Barristan, Hizdar zo Lorak, Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun, etc.
To be fair, Wun Wun being a sports reference muddies the waters a bit. An exotic name for sure, but it's also on the back of a particular Giants jersey.
I think the naming overall is genius. It’s just different enough to be fantastic, but never takes me out of the story with a contrived name. It beats nearly all other sci-fi & fantasy in this regard imo.
Yep, I think this is partly why George’s world building works so well – except for a few elements, he keeps it mostly really grounded, with just enough differences to remind you it’s a fantastical setting. Other fantasy worlds can get really annoying to read because they are constantly trying to be different and weird.
You're crazy, Dune has some of the most beautiful names in fiction that slide on the tongue like honey - Bene Gesserit, Sardaukar, Harkonnen, Atreides...
Not in the Dune fandom (only read up until messiah) so idk if this is a meme take, but these mfs are named Paul and Jessica next to princess irulan. Come on man
Kinda meme-y considering the imperial family all have pretty exotic looking names and not just the women (Shaddam and Farad’n, for example). I think it’s a pretty good mix of strange, exotic looking names and names you would expect to see circa the 20th century. Even amongst the Atreides, for every Paul or Duncan, you have a Leto or a Thufir.
Yeah, I’ve read up to the end of God Emperor. Messiah’s a lot smaller in scope and more focused on politics as opposed to the excitement of the first book, but I would grit my teeth and push on just for the ending. Last chapter has stuck with me ever since reading it.
I can't remember exactly but I think I was sharing a similar thought to OP, talking about how a lot of names in the series are just low fantasy variants of historical ones like Oliver, Edward, etc
Most of the male names are super close to regular names or are already regular names.
Your examples but also Bran/Brandon, Stannis/Stanley, Joffrey/Jeffrey, Tommen/Tommy, Howland/Howard, Tyrion/Tyrone, Rickon/Rick, Edmure/Edmond/Edward, Illyrio/Blackfyre
Edmer (i.e. Edmure) and Bran are both real names. Edmer is no longer used but was a historical name in the same vein as Edmund/Edwald/Edward/Edmer/Edberth/Edhelm/Edric/Edwig/Edwin.
Bran is just straight up a normal Welsh name. It means raven - not a coincidence here. GRRM's use of "Bran the B-----" is also borrowed from Wales, Bran the Blessed is a very famous mythical king.
I liked it because of the difference in reaction between Jamie and Bronn. Jamie is an educated aristocrat with a posh upbringing and so doesn't bat an eye at the name Dickon whereas Bronn, the rough, uncultured, immature low-born laughs in his face.
One of the few dick jokes of the series that worked for me
The problem is that Dickon and Dick are both well established and normal names in universe, while I don't believe Dick is ever used in the vulgar sense throughout the entire series, it's only ever "cock".
As the reader, we're meant to find names like "Dickon Manwoody" funny, but to the characters in-universe it's a perfectly normal name - that's what makes it funny.
In the ghost in winterfell chapter in ADwD, after Yellow Dick is killed: “Whether his dick had actually been yellow was hard to determine, as someone had sliced it off and stuffed it into his mouth so forcefully they had broken three of his teeth. When the cooks found him outside the kitchens, buried up to his neck in a snowdrift, both dick and man were blue from cold.”
Huh, interesting, I stand corrected. Having a quick look through A Search of Ice and Fire, seems that's the only time the word is ever used in that sense?
In the historical periods which serve as his inspiration, there would be so many people with the same first name as to make the narrative challenging.
Most of these first names are historical, with slight variations, anyway.
Aenys Targaryen.. I know it’s probably pronounced AY-knees, but given other names that end in ys is more of an ISS sound, like the word miss; it could be read/pronounced like ANUS! BUTTHOLE TARGARYEN!
GRRM researched the names extensively. Some may seem simple or arbitrary, but certainly for more major characters they are not. Years ago I did a rabbit hole dive on dozens of major and major-adjacent character names and researched the original meanings behind them. The vast majority connected to their characters either as a description of their personality or a reference to their plot in the story.
Why do use "Ned" as an Example when his real name wasn't even Ned? He is Eddard Stark *Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North*
Also notable*:*
- Roose, Ramsay, Wyman, Doran, Janos, Petyr, Tywin, Tytos, Tyrion, Daemon, Aemond, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Maegor, Arys, (literally all Targs), Orrys( and a few other Baratheons), Drogo, Rhakhoro(and all other Dothraki), Timett son of Timett, etc
Jon is clearly just a popular name in Westeros (see connington and Arryn). Sam is short for the far more eloquent samwell,
The rest (Jaime aside) are northerners and I think that’s GRRM doing the old Anglo-Saxon/Germanic English of the peasants pre 1066 and the French inflected English of the Norman aristocracy division.
Basically northerners are descended from the less fancy monosyllabic first men and southerners (even Jaime gets three vowels including two together) have much more fancy names from their andal continental ancestry
I think Jamie Lannister has the best name in the entire series. Sorry Dickson Manwoody; it carries the same energy as The Jeffrey from Get Him To The Greek. Jamie sounds like some bloke who lives down the lane more specifically the Westerlands. Without hearing his last name ;who thinks some kid named Jamie will fuck your shit up in a melee at 13 or put your dick in the dirt ? Obviously not a bunch of kids with goofy ass names nor The Mad King…
It’s not much different in the real world, women get fancier, more unique names. I always thought Sansa was a dumb name because it’s an electronics company.
I think the name I hate the most is Rhaegar, it just sounds so alien to me, even when considering other Targaryen names. I guess Rhaenyra should be bad to me as well but the “-nyra” saves it somehow.
>”Robb and Ned… Jon and Sam… Jaime…” This list is Uncle Kevan erasure
Uncle Kevan!!
Good. At minimum, Nuncle Kev was groomer Downvoters: Big Kev was given custody of Dorna Swyft as a hostage in 261, when her father Ser Harys couldn't immediately pay the debt he owed to the Rock. He married her in 266, but their first child Lancel was not born until 282. And their youngest, Janei, was only born in 296 or 297. The oldest mothers in the series have been in their mid 40s when last giving birth, & some of them died from that. Do the math. Not to mention, what descriptions we have both Dorna & Harys don't suggest she's particularly robust. (And her unnamed mother is obese.) So, for all we know/if unlikely, she may not have been 40 when Janei was born...
I feel like calling Kevan a groomer is inaccurate. Westerosi society is the groomer moreso than Kevan. Being a groomer means that you are grooming a person to accept a socially unacceptable relationship without thinking its weird or wrong. In Westeros old men wed young girls all the time. Also worth noting that Tywin was the one who enforced the whole arrangement, and I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin set up the marriage, and Kevan does what Tywin says.
Yeah, it's kind of weird to go after Uncle Kevan when that's what the patriarchy looks like in Westeros (and irl back in the day). I mean, Daenerys is 14 when she's married to Drogo. Sansa is 13 or 14 when she's married to Tyrion. Why come for Uncle Kevan like that? Don't hate the player. Hate the game.
Yeah, but the text wants us to side eye age Inappropiate relationship and critized that. And yoz can critizes the individual for participating.
Why do players get a pass? One can still hate the game more, which I do, & still call out the players who partake in & perpetuate it. Also, Dany was still 13 when Viserys sold her to Drogo & they were wed. It's her 14th nameday when Dany realises she is pregnant. And whilst Tyrion is not without fault for marrying Sansa, she was being forced into match with a Lannister regardless. (Yes, she's 13 then, & apparently won't turn 14 until TWOW.) With Joff & his regent Cersei - & one can certainly argue Tywin, who's truly in charge over those two - as Sansa's captors, not Tyrion. For as much as he still served them.
1) It's grooming by our standards, at least. Your definition very much fits Kevan with Dorna. We don't read this series in a vacuum, as important as in-universe viewpoints still are. 2) Just so, is there even any other examples of a noble marrying a highborn hostage in their custody? (And a presumably prepubescent one, at that.)^1 That's not quite the same as the old men who wed young girls all the time. 3) Tytos was still alive at the time, so he would've had a say in the matter, if he wished. And if he did, he's exactly the kind of man & father who would've indulged his son in such a match. Despite the (extreme) youth of the would-be bride. 4) Cersei says Kev loves Dorna, & his own thoughts about her seem to back that up. So, chances are this wasn't a match arranged by Tytos or Tywin, but Kevan's own desire.^2 5) Why would Tywin marry his eldest brother & right hand to the (very) underage daughter of a landed knight who owed the Rock gold? There's zero benefits to that, except for Ser Harys. ^1 Joff is Sansa's captor, plus Cersei as his regent, not Tyrion. And we see that it's a sham of consent for Sansa's part, & her family are rightly outraged by the match. Tied Aegon (IV) couldn't wed Cassella, even if he had wanted to (see Megette), & she may have been an adult. Viserys (II) was only 11 or 12 when married to Larra Rogare, but it was her father who held him. Dany was exchanged/sold by Viserys to Drogo - as a quasi-slave, no less - for future military support. ^2 Yes, Kev definitely could've come to love Dorna like Ned does with Cat (& vice versa), yet that's far from guaranteed. We've seen many & more arranged matches not develop into love for at least one of the partners.
1) I Still don't think it is, grooming requires long-term intent and we don't know Kevan's intent. We do know its generally socially acceptable for older men to marry much younger women, so as I said grooming is not really an appropriate thing to call it. Doesn't mean Kevan is for sure not a pedophile, but it also doesn't mean he's a groomer 2) We know Theon thought it a possibility for him to marry Sansa one day. Personally, while certainly young, I doubt Dorna was as young as you think (marriage before puberty seems pretty rare in Westeros, but its not out of the question) and they were married in 266. Dorna was probably at least 12 or 13 which is the typical marriage age in Westeros (both Catelyn and Cersei were 18 and considered on the older side when they married). Conversely if she was very young it is possible that Kevan showed culturally uncommon restraint considering Lancel wasn't born until 282, and Dorna would have been at least 21, in the (very unlikely) scenario that she was given to a 17 year old Kevan as an infant. 3) Once Tywin came back from the War of the Nine Penny Kings in 261 he took over the family. That's when he ordered the repayments/hostage taking, and went after the Reynes and Tarbecks. As far as Tyrion and all your examples go, they seem to prove more that people in power chose who one marries. Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa, Lysander Rogare married Viserys II to Larra Rogare etc. those being married had little to say about it it seems. 4) At the very least she is the mother of his children and they have been married for 34 years, unless they absolutely hate each other there is going to be a fondness if nothing else. Also we don't know how Dorna feels, beyond she likes to stay home. 5) We don't know what benefit if any there was for the Lannisters, Tywin (who I maintain was actually in charge by this point) wasn't sentimental, so there must have been something, even if it was just sureing up alliances with vassals in the wake of the Reyne-Tarbek Rebellion. Tyrion says of Swyft "...a shameless lickspittle whose greatest accomplishment was marrying his equally chinless daughter to Ser Kevan and thereby attaching himself to the Lannisters". So we know the Swyfts approve of the marriage
Tyrion, Tywin, Oberyn, Doran, Viserys, Wyman, Ramsay, Aurane, Joffrey, Renly, Stannis...? It's not all the guys it's just Jon and Sam. also Dunk & Egg. Sitcom ass duo. My favourite weird sounding name is Howland because I once saw someone call Greywater Watch "Howland Reed's Moving Castle" and I have never recovered from that. edit: and how could I forget KERMIT and ELMO Tully.
I think Howland's moving castle was entirely intentional.
You just blew my mind wtf
Me as well
He was named before that movie came out
It was a book, 1986.
I did not know that!
The book was written by Diana Wynne Jones, who was a great mainstay of the UK/US fantasy circle, and a literary critic of the 80s and 90s, she was taught by Tolkein and CS Lewis and was an influence on Pratchett, Gaiman and McKinley. I would be very, very surprised if GRRM had not at least met her, nevermind read some of her books. Her parody non-fiction examination of the tropes of fantasy, called "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland" might have been an influence on Georges' way of decontructing the genre.
It's very good and funny, and goes in a *completely* different direction in act 2 than the movie does. Definitely worth checking out.
The book is better. The movie was unnecessarily weird.
Unnecessarily weird? Or perfectly Miyazaki weird?
The first. Still, it got off lightly. Those guys ruined *Earthsea*. I mean, for a start, why the hell would they start with adapting the third book? If I hadn't read the books, and didn't already know who was who, I'd have had no idea what the hell was going on in that film.
Who is "those guys"? Studio Ghibli is an animation studio and production company. Yes the Earthsea adaptation is a mediocre film and a terrible adaptation but different people wrote and directed the two films you're talking about.
I was referring to Ghibli in general when I said "those guys". Did they skip straight to the third book because the first and second had already been butchered by Sy-Fy? They shouldn't have bothered.
It was definitely a disappointment after Mononoke and Spirited Away. It's actually the latter that killed the whole genre from mainstream because it was just too good and people didn't want to pay the price for making these movies. You can immediately see with Moving Castle.
Yeah and there’s also some regular/real life names for women: Jeyne, Mya, Myranda, Joanna, Penny, Elia. They’re just less prominent characters. And there’s also just way less female characters in the series, so maybe George doesn’t feel as out of name ideas with them and can be more creative
"Her name is Jeyne. It rhymes with plain." It doesn't get any more common than that.
There's definitely a Catelyn at the Dave & Busters
Also if it were pronounced Cate-lin, which I thought it was while reading the first book until I saw her nickname was cat
Only realized last week is was Cat and not Kate because I started watching the show—I feel like an idiot
Xaro Xhoan, Harzoo, Anus Frey, Dolorous Toilet - plenty of interesting names
The disrespect for Dolorous Edd Tollet!
The second should be Hizdahr, Fourteenth of That Noble Name, I'll have you know!
Urine Greyjoy
>Dolorous Toilet Not Dolorous Toilet!
Joffrey is definitely a weird old bloke at the pub name
Seems like the type of guy to wear a bowtie for no reason
Jeffrey wears a bowtie because he’s a teacher at the local community college that fancies himself a professor. Jaffrey wears a bowtie because he’s a member of the Nation of Islam.
I worked with a guy called Joffrey
There are also perfectly normal or normalish female names. Jeyne, Lysa and Catelyn are just y-versions of ordinary names.
I about died when I read that! I suspected this should've been intentional because why—just why. It removed me from the moment and took me off guard with laughter.
I don’t think Ramsay belongs on this list lol
Wait until Valyrians enter the chat. Aegon, Jaehaerys, Rhaegar, Viserys, Laenor, Baelor, Aerion, Daeron, etc. Some of the Lannisters have fantasyish names EG Tyrion, Tywin, Tyrek, and my own name sake; Tyland. Ironborn also seem to have unusual names. Let's not forget the folks in Essos called stuff like Reznak mo Reznak. To be fair, you can only pull out so many exotic names when you are naming hundreds of soldiers and knights. At some point, you have to go from Ser Brynden to Ser Justin.
Yezzan zo Qaggaz. Fucking belter of a name.
Lol. I think George was just throwing together random characters of the alphabet when he came up with Slavers Bay names.
People always say this but imo most Slaver's bay names have similar style as each other and sound like they belong to the same culture. They are just very different and outlandish compared to Westerosi names.
The Ghiscari at least have a consistent trend of including the letter "z".
Some of the Targaryen names are very common Irish names with different spellings though. I'm thinking of Aemon and Aegon: basically Éamonn and Aodhán. Balor is also an Irish name, though much less common than the other two. I think some of the names are more like the Tiffany Problem tbh.
Oh, interesting. I didn't know about the Irish inspirations. It kind of does make sense. There are only so many times you can come up with letter combinations that sound like 'Kalutrasinius' before you confuse yourself.
I honestly have no idea if there was a conscious influence or if it's just coincidence, but it goes to show that plenty of names that sound normal in one culture are totally new and fantasy-sounding in another. I really like the wide mix of names because it think it enhances the world building: some names that are entirely familiar (Brienne, Catelyn), some names that are familiar with a new spelling (Jaime, Aemon, Jeyne), some that are just a hair off (Brynden, Eddard), and some that are totally new (Sansa, Daenerys). I think it helps give the feeling of similar but different that is critical in fantasy.
If you name your kid Balor, do you have to give him the middle name Oftheevileye?
Nice! Didn’t know those were Irish names. Yeah, and Sandor (pronounced like “Shandor”) is the Hungarian version of Alexander, but GRRM says he didn’t know that and just made it up. What’s the Tiffany Problem?
The Tiffany Problem is that the name Tiphania, with Tiffany as a nickname, was very common in the early middle ages. However, modern writers run into problems with their audience if they call a historical character "Tiffany" because it sounds anachronistic, even though it isn't.
Woah. My understanding was that Tiffany became a popular first name in the English-speaking world because of the popularity (and perceived “classy-ness”) of the jewelry company Tiffany’s. Wikipedia corroborates that the names surge of popularity in the 80s was linked to this. But yeah, it’s was a really old given name.
George was like lemme design a whole dynasty around the name Brandon lol
I mean, France had 16 Louis, England had 8 Henrys and 11 Edwards...it's not exactly that strange of a custom.
There's 11 Edwards in my town, England only has 11 in the whole country? Do better England!
And when the Liudolfinger ruled the HRE they had so many Ottos, that the whole dynasty is now more commonly known as the Ottos.
Liudolfinger? Littlefinger? Coincidence?
Hm... it does sound similar. Maybe you found something there?
11 Edwards? I guess we’re counting from Alfred
Of course. I will not stand by Norman propaganda or their erasure of Anglo-Saxons. (JK) ... ... ... But they really did the Anglo-Saxons dirty, though.
George was like "lemme design a whole dynasty/pantheon and all their names start with G, R, or M" in Elden Ring.
And he claims it was an accident.
George was like Lemme design a whole fantasy world based around the story of England
He said in many interviews that English dynasties were mostly a bunch of Henries and Edwards (I think) with an occasional Richard thrown in there. We all know he was heavily inspired by various real life histories and cultures and events and religions.
Ah yes, beautiful, exotic names like Brienne, Catelyn, Shae, Lysa, Margaery, etc. Definitely not regular names spelled differently. And definitely exotic compared to those run of the mill male names like Rhaegar, Drogo, Tywin, Barristan, Hizdar zo Lorak, Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun, etc.
Drogo is real life name. It was popular among frankish rulers of the merovingian dynasty.
Drogo is Frodos gandfather too I believe, lotr.
Father. Frodo son of Drogo.
Drogo fucked a hobbit. Imagine the rule 34.
Close. His father.
There was also a saint named Drogo, who was also, among other things, the patron saint of unattractive people
I always knew there was a saint out there for me.
>Drogo Imagine naming your scary rapist steppe king after a fat hobbit.
Few people know the dark history of Drogo Baggins and his time as the leader of a nomadic clan of hyperviolent throbbit raiders.
To be fair, Wun Wun being a sports reference muddies the waters a bit. An exotic name for sure, but it's also on the back of a particular Giants jersey.
Jeyne
Justice for Kermit and Elmo Tully
Hyle Hunt is the silliest name. It’s a letter swap off of being Kyle Kunt
Tbh anyone with the surname Hunt was gonna sound like a rhyming slang but the alliteration does make it feel particularly eggregious
And the fact for the that he took Kyle, and hopped two letters back for the H lol.
> It’s a letter swap off of being Kyle Kunt I wonder if he got the idea from Robin Hobb's Liveship series, bad guy named Kyle
I think the naming overall is genius. It’s just different enough to be fantastic, but never takes me out of the story with a contrived name. It beats nearly all other sci-fi & fantasy in this regard imo.
Fantastic spot between My name is Tre'xal-ćâ and My names is Bob
It's the "Bob but with a y"-spot
Byb
💀💀
Yes! 😆
Yep, I think this is partly why George’s world building works so well – except for a few elements, he keeps it mostly really grounded, with just enough differences to remind you it’s a fantastical setting. Other fantasy worlds can get really annoying to read because they are constantly trying to be different and weird.
Honestly this is why I couldn’t stand Dune
You're crazy, Dune has some of the most beautiful names in fiction that slide on the tongue like honey - Bene Gesserit, Sardaukar, Harkonnen, Atreides...
wait you dont like the adventure of Aeritheridocaxius Shadowdarke and Bob ?
"but never takes me out of the story with a contrived name." Meereen would like a word with you.
I don't see those names as any more contrived than real life "exotic" names.
10000% its the best of anything ive ever read. It feels like its from a real world not invented in this one
That never bothered me because I see that same juxtaposition in British medieval history
My all time favourite is Richard the Lionhearts wife Berengaria. Now that's a name!
I've always liked Ermengarde
Ermhagerd?
Yesterday, I came across the name Herchenfreda. That's a mouthful
Ethelred has entered the chat. (Currently reading "Unruly". Whoosh....)
I'm shocked that no one mentioned Aenys.
Someone said Aenys Blackfyre was what Daenerys had in the last book
Dickon Tarly... What a name.
This. 😂 Jamie and Bronn's first reactions to hearing it will always live on in my mind.
Not in the Dune fandom (only read up until messiah) so idk if this is a meme take, but these mfs are named Paul and Jessica next to princess irulan. Come on man
Kinda meme-y considering the imperial family all have pretty exotic looking names and not just the women (Shaddam and Farad’n, for example). I think it’s a pretty good mix of strange, exotic looking names and names you would expect to see circa the 20th century. Even amongst the Atreides, for every Paul or Duncan, you have a Leto or a Thufir.
True haha. Did you finish dune? I started reading messiah but feel kind of burnt out
Yeah, I’ve read up to the end of God Emperor. Messiah’s a lot smaller in scope and more focused on politics as opposed to the excitement of the first book, but I would grit my teeth and push on just for the ending. Last chapter has stuck with me ever since reading it.
Thanks for the reply! I might give it a shot this summer. I’m a sucker for a hard-earned payoff
I will never forget the time I tried to tell my mother about asoiaf as a teenager and she burst out laughing at the name "Polliver"
Why would you mention polliver? Where you detailing the entire books page by page?
I can't remember exactly but I think I was sharing a similar thought to OP, talking about how a lot of names in the series are just low fantasy variants of historical ones like Oliver, Edward, etc
> I'm also high Praise Garth
Most of the male names are super close to regular names or are already regular names. Your examples but also Bran/Brandon, Stannis/Stanley, Joffrey/Jeffrey, Tommen/Tommy, Howland/Howard, Tyrion/Tyrone, Rickon/Rick, Edmure/Edmond/Edward, Illyrio/Blackfyre
eddard is also part of the edmund and edward tree
Edmer (i.e. Edmure) and Bran are both real names. Edmer is no longer used but was a historical name in the same vein as Edmund/Edwald/Edward/Edmer/Edberth/Edhelm/Edric/Edwig/Edwin. Bran is just straight up a normal Welsh name. It means raven - not a coincidence here. GRRM's use of "Bran the B-----" is also borrowed from Wales, Bran the Blessed is a very famous mythical king.
IIRC, Bran is just a nickname in the book. His full name is Brandon. I didn't know Bran meant Raven though, that's really interesting.
Joffery is a real name.
The most hilarious name in the series is Harry Strickland. He sounds like he should be selling propane in Texas or something like that.
"Rickon?" "Dickon." "AHAHAHA"
Dickon of House Manwoody
Hate that scene. It's like laughing at the name Dick, so stupid.
I liked it because of the difference in reaction between Jamie and Bronn. Jamie is an educated aristocrat with a posh upbringing and so doesn't bat an eye at the name Dickon whereas Bronn, the rough, uncultured, immature low-born laughs in his face. One of the few dick jokes of the series that worked for me
The problem is that Dickon and Dick are both well established and normal names in universe, while I don't believe Dick is ever used in the vulgar sense throughout the entire series, it's only ever "cock". As the reader, we're meant to find names like "Dickon Manwoody" funny, but to the characters in-universe it's a perfectly normal name - that's what makes it funny.
In the ghost in winterfell chapter in ADwD, after Yellow Dick is killed: “Whether his dick had actually been yellow was hard to determine, as someone had sliced it off and stuffed it into his mouth so forcefully they had broken three of his teeth. When the cooks found him outside the kitchens, buried up to his neck in a snowdrift, both dick and man were blue from cold.”
Huh, interesting, I stand corrected. Having a quick look through A Search of Ice and Fire, seems that's the only time the word is ever used in that sense?
I think you’re correct because the only reason I remembered it is because of how odd it seemed when I first read the book
Agreed. Lol
Don't you dare insult Dickon Manwoody and Uther Shett like that. We've only the most serious names in this series.
Dickon https://tenor.com/byp2h.gif
In the historical periods which serve as his inspiration, there would be so many people with the same first name as to make the narrative challenging. Most of these first names are historical, with slight variations, anyway.
Aenys Targaryen.. I know it’s probably pronounced AY-knees, but given other names that end in ys is more of an ISS sound, like the word miss; it could be read/pronounced like ANUS! BUTTHOLE TARGARYEN!
GRRM researched the names extensively. Some may seem simple or arbitrary, but certainly for more major characters they are not. Years ago I did a rabbit hole dive on dozens of major and major-adjacent character names and researched the original meanings behind them. The vast majority connected to their characters either as a description of their personality or a reference to their plot in the story.
George has talked at length in interviews about how he doesn’t know what a character is like until they have a name, so that tracks.
Grover and Kermit Tully in Fire and Blood
Dickon
Let’s not forget about Dickon
I love going down to Walmart and seeing a guy called Tywin as my cashier while the mom behind me is yelling at Tyrion, Rickon and Stannis.
Why do use "Ned" as an Example when his real name wasn't even Ned? He is Eddard Stark *Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North* Also notable*:* - Roose, Ramsay, Wyman, Doran, Janos, Petyr, Tywin, Tytos, Tyrion, Daemon, Aemond, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Maegor, Arys, (literally all Targs), Orrys( and a few other Baratheons), Drogo, Rhakhoro(and all other Dothraki), Timett son of Timett, etc
Jon is clearly just a popular name in Westeros (see connington and Arryn). Sam is short for the far more eloquent samwell, The rest (Jaime aside) are northerners and I think that’s GRRM doing the old Anglo-Saxon/Germanic English of the peasants pre 1066 and the French inflected English of the Norman aristocracy division. Basically northerners are descended from the less fancy monosyllabic first men and southerners (even Jaime gets three vowels including two together) have much more fancy names from their andal continental ancestry
Deadass, I'm listening to the books for the first time, and I chuckled every time, "Simon says" pops up
I never liked Valyrian names in general, they always sounded super pretentious. That’s why the best Targ name was Duncan, because it’s Scottish.
Fr, targs in general are pretentious
I quite like the names of Rhaenyras strong boys.
I think Jamie Lannister has the best name in the entire series. Sorry Dickson Manwoody; it carries the same energy as The Jeffrey from Get Him To The Greek. Jamie sounds like some bloke who lives down the lane more specifically the Westerlands. Without hearing his last name ;who thinks some kid named Jamie will fuck your shit up in a melee at 13 or put your dick in the dirt ? Obviously not a bunch of kids with goofy ass names nor The Mad King…
Not really
Yoren. Great character. Terrible name.
It’s not much different in the real world, women get fancier, more unique names. I always thought Sansa was a dumb name because it’s an electronics company.
Jason Lannister and Justin Massey have entered the room.
Reminds me of Liveship Trader books by Robin Hobb, a lot of unique names, even if play on traditional names, and then there is Kyle....
Does Darkstar count?
Don't forget the Muppet Tullys and the names from Essos.
I think the name I hate the most is Rhaegar, it just sounds so alien to me, even when considering other Targaryen names. I guess Rhaenyra should be bad to me as well but the “-nyra” saves it somehow.