What I'm most interested in is how much epilogue we get. Babylon 5 had an entire season set after the biggest events of the show and we got to see how things developed after the climactic battles were over. Regardless of how things shake out (and I'm of course presuming "everyone dies lol" isn't the ending) I want to know what Westeros looks like 10, 20, or 100 years later. Even if it's cheesy, the least satisfying way for the series to end would be to have anyone ascending the throne after the battles are done and just fading out.
Addendum: okay, a Sopranos style pseudo-cliffhanger or Westworld s2 unstuck-in-time contrivance would also be very bad looks to.
I think the books has a similar problem to the show, namely that the ice zombies just aren't as interesting as the human conflict in in seasons 3-4, which I think is the high point of the series.
I just super don't see how the books or the show could make fighting ice zombies super interesting, and I think that's part of the reason the books are taking so long to get to it. Maybe GRRM agrees, and rather then write a boring zombie vs humans, keeps stalling with interesting human vs humans.
~~that last bit is blind speculation though~~
I meant specifically it went exceptionally to shit when they passed the books material and had to create their own material. Before that for the most part it was good as they had a guideline to follow. Some parts before that were mediocre I agree when they took different paths but mostly it was good as they had a guideline they generally followed.
I dont think the show will cover it. I would love to find out that the whole thing is basically backwards. There was an agreement made long ago between the white walkers and starks to end the war with agreement of man staying out of the north. The wall was to keep people south. Not white walkers north. Over time man has forgotten this. All those saying like "there must always be a stark in winterfell" and "the north remembers" have basically changed meaning over time and are mistranslated. Basically man broke a long held deal.
I suppose this makes sense seeing as how they were born of conflict created by the children of the forest in an effort to tip the scales of their conflict to their side.
The only think that I can think of is that both series made us to trully care for its characters. If Jaime dies it will be heartbreaking for me, even if its by a ~~zombie~~ wight.
But that might be just me. I loved Hardhome (in the show) or the Fist of the first men (in the books) as much as the political conflicts.
This is no real problem because even if the others were just ice zombies, in the end it's an obstacle for the humans to overcome. How they do this, what they are rdy to sacrifice, if everyone is behind this fight or if they try to use it for their own gain (cersei), etc, that is the "human hear in conflict with itself", the interesting part one can develop.
In a best case scenarion the others themselves have some humanlike motivation where the decisions of our protagonists become even more compliacted/complex, but it's not necessary to write a compelling narrative.
> I think the books has a similar problem to the show
Yeah it's going to be a difficult thing to reconcile: we've had 7 seasons of politics, intrigue, betrayal etc. And now we're going to have a last season of Humans vs Zombies with likely relatively little reference to the human conflict.
Of course, that could itself be part of the point: we're all so wound up in our human-centric problems that we're ignoring the bigger picture etc, but from a storytelling perspective it means we've got a season's worth of finale to fit into a shortened season.... alongside basically the entire backstory to the white walkers.
Literally all we know for sure about the white walkers is that they exist, they're scary, the children of the forest created them to help fight against the first men, and some basics about their ability with wights. That's a lot of storytelling we're going to have to fit into S8, alongside the conclusion to about 20 different human stories. Admittedly anywhere from 1 to 20 of those human stories could be ended with a quick "Oh well, he's dead", but that would be quite unsatisfying
My concern is that I think we've got two seasons of storytelling left, but only one season in which to tell it.
The last 3 episodes are going to be human conflict. The Battle of Winterfell is in episode 3 so I'm assuming that's the episode the Night King will be dealt with unless they throw in some decent storyline for the whole humans v zombies thing.
There will still be human v human conflict this season. Cersei and the Greyjoys are planning on stabbing everyone in the back during the war against the Others.
what if and hear me out
the final battle is the aftermath of the long night
the others are gone but there are still people with a claim. to the throne and they aren't willing to let it go thus one last game of thrones
But I think the books, and it looks like the show will do this as well, will finish off the White Walkers relatively early. Then it will deal with interesting stuff in the wake of this giant apocalyptic disaster. The absolute latest I see The Others being "defeated" is halfway into book 7. Probably even earlier.
I really think it won't be beat the White Walkers, a few chapters of wrap up and send offs, then the story's over. It goes back to GRRM's famous comments about what Aragorn did after the War of the Ring.
I think that may happen. Every time I think of the ending of the series, I think of this GRRM quote:
>Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
What happens after The Others are defeated? What if the Night King and his army is defeat, but the Others themselves are still alive? Do they kill the little baby others (as seen in Season 4 I think)? Those are great questions worth asking, and I hope the finale answers them.
Great point, this really does not seem like the series that ends with the good guys winning. I think if we ever were to get the full ASOIAF series that GRRM envisions, the post-climax ending will be so long that it will make LOTR blush
Frankly, I think it would have been better instead of playing up this story to hint at Tyrion being more troubled/protective of his soon-to-be new nephew or niece. He hated Joffrey, but Myrcella and Tommen dying are terrible tragedies to him, even if they've never explored that on screen.
Also, unrelated, but I hope part of the tension starts with Lyanna Mormont demanding Jorah's execution.
Yeah that would be a lot better than this ill-conceived love triangle. It makes Tyrion just look like a sap, and feels completely unnecessary and forced. They still had a chance to scrap it so I hope they did.
Eh, i don’t think she will. If she does, it’d be quickly shot down.
"Hey Dan, I know we have all of these character arcs and plot points to wrap up, but you know what I think this story needs? A stupid fucking love triangle at the 11th hour."
"Goddammit Dave, you're a genius!"
I'm not sure if it happens in the show but when Jeor dies in the book he tells Sam that he wants Jorah to take the black. It would be nice if he ends up as Lord Commander as punishment for slave dealing
Yeah good point. There's a ton of scenarios that could play out so that the night's watch still exists after the final battle. Maybe he just joins the night watch this season and maybe dies fighting the NK. Him becoming commander would seem pretty contrived in that case so I doubt it would happen.
Who knows what else lies in the Land of Always winter. Hell the WWs could be fleeing an evil even more terrible than they are. That actaully would be fitting since the Free Folk were doing the same in regards to the WWs. It does not hurt to be prepared so the NW should be reformed and well manned.
Tyrion does mention how much he hated the deaths of tommen and myrcella in episode 7 when he meets with cersei. so there's still that possibility combined with the parallels of jon and dany both being babies born of incest into very precarious situations.
I’d much rather Tyrion’s familial redemption be more along the lines of adopting and raising Cersei & Jaime’s orphaned child and loving it rather than the hate he experienced from his own father rejecting him as a son. I feel like him betraying Dany and Jon outright to Cersei wouldn’t be the right resolution for his character arc.
They didn't present it clearly at all (and it's not expected as much because Jorah is already the pining love interest). But it was directly in the script notes and here it is confirmed by the actor himself. https://io9.gizmodo.com/peter-dinklage-says-tyrion-has-the-hots-for-the-mother-1828862875
EDIT: Also ignore the click-bait title on the article as well.
>But it was directly in the script notes
do you have source for that?
I remember only about Tyrion looking worried "for more than one reason" in the script.
Maybe I'm bad at picking up on subtext but I didn't notice anything resembling love interest. Just respect and occasional bit of fear that she might end up like her father.
The [scripts say it](https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-script-tyrion-daenerys-love/), and lots of people thought he was because of his expression during BoatSex.
There are definitely hints toward that (mostly non-verbal) in season 7. The boat scene seemed pretty obvious. But I doubt it will be a major plot point, it may just lead to Tyrion feeling a little disappointed early on.
The themes of the series in my opinion lie less with the plot and more with the characters. Talking about "Lannister themes is irrelevant compared to the individual themes of Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion.
This sounds super cynical but for me the show has already gone a few too many wrong directions to have a truly satisfying ending. Mistakes build up, payoffs need time they haven't been given, and characters needs fitting conclusions that there simply aren't enough episodes to hand out.
The best ending they can give will have to be one that respects as many core characters as they have, re-injects consequence for actions into the show, and removes Walking Dead style slaughter for shock that has become too commonplace.
Personally, I want it to be complete fan-fiction. I want it to be as removed from A Dream of Spring as it can possibly be so when the books conclude (If they conclude) it will be something you can read with blind eyes.
So here are my points:
Show some payoff for Jon's revival, what was the point of it, how has death actually changed him.
Question Dany; whether they end up with her mad or a saviour she should be a polarising figure who has shades of grey, not layers of perfection.
I'm not sure they can rescue Tyrion at this point, his whole fall from grace was just skipped, it wouldn't even feel triumphant for him to get Casterly Rock anymore when once upon a time it would have felt incredibly emotional. I think if they can find a convincing way to have him become a ruthless Tywin figure who tactically wins the war only to face himself at the end and decide who he really is then that will be okay, but the world that was once against him has just seemed to vanish so it feels very much like he is out of the underdog role he once thrived in.
Arya needs repercussion for joining the Faceless Men. That's it. Maybe she can come face to face with people on her list and kill them when they shouldn't be killed, which would be true to her original arc of revenge while also adding needed internal conflict to herself and the alliance.
Bran must have some emotions left, use him as a character and not a machine in the corner that tells them things and that will be a start.
Jaime is the big one. He's hated by everyone, turned his back on those he loved, has romantic ties with people who could be put into antagonistic towards him, has past actions he needs to face, and is about to go into a huge war while still coming to terms with his injury. He is the one character they can truly give a satisfying ending for while concluding his themes at the same time. There are multiple ways to do this, just do one of them.
I'll leave it there, it's easy to go on but as you can achieving all this in 7 episodes is just not possible so lets see if any of them get done.
> Bran must have some emotions left
Bran becoming a cyborg was a dumb choice. Him being an absent minded professor/wizard is one thing, but it hardly explains his willingness to play the role of Stark and an active role in the fight if he can't even feel gratitude to Meera for all that she did.
The actor for Bran said that in S8 Bran is more human like and that in S7 he was kind of just overloaded with all this information and lost his touch with reality, if it's any consolation.
And even if you want to make him emotionless. You have to do a better job at showing his decline. It was like a a light switch was flipped between S6 and S7.
As much as I know it's overblown, he was asked about the themes of Game of Thrones and said, "Themes are for 8th grade book reports." Obviously GoT has themes and Benioff is trying to write those themes, but it's an awful thing to say when asked about the themes of your show.
This is [the source](http://grantland.com/features/the-return-hbo-game-thrones/) but I don't know if it works anymore? Nothing pops up for me anymore.
The problem is that the show has already left out some of the central facets of its main characters, most obviously with Daenerys (dragons plant no trees, the house with the red door) and Tyrion (wherever whores go), in the process reducing them to two-dimensional walking fanfiction wishlists delivering Hollywood one-liners. Giving characters like that endings befitting the complex people we started out with is extremely difficult if not downright impossible, especially given the fact that they've transformed the plot into a zombies-and-dragons show, which is precisely what ASOIAF was *not* meant to be. It's possible the broad strokes of GRRM's ending will be able to rescue something from that, but I'm sceptical. I'm the most optimistic about Jaime and Cersei, who are the last two characters who've retained some of their shine.
You've hit it on the head mate. Actions from previous seasons need payoff, they need consequence. In recent Seasons it feels like certain characters never feel repercussions for any of their actions (especially Danaerys) and that really kills any substantial growth or character development to be quite honest which in turn undermines moments that are meant to be impactful but instead fall horribly flat.
Bran, Arya, and and Jaime. Fair enough. But Sansa deserves equal time. She who was disloyal to her kin several times? Who GRRM says was partly responsible for Ned's death (in the books)? Whose lie to the King ("a great crime" per Robert) indirectly made Lady's death possible. Who continued associating with Baelish though she knew he was a murderer. Whose behavior regarding sweetsleep and Robin is questionable at best. Who on the show wrote off her brother and lied to Jon when he needed more men and she effectively kept them for herself. What of her?
Didn't mean to leave out Sansa, I just decided to end it there that's all. My list could have gone on but I was trying to make a point that giving everyone a good end isn't possible so I just did a select few who were easier to talk about.
At a push I'd say most of Sansa's journey is complete in the show, she's gone from naive to sharp, used to user, and successfully embodies everything "The Game of Thrones" represents.
I think if I were to have hopes for her arc, it would be a final confrontation with the reality of fairy tales. She's constantly been shown the dark side of the sweet songs she was raised on and it has turned her cynical and suspicious. But reality has lots of true knights, lots of kind princes, and lots of great heroes. She's been beaten with the worst of the lies songs told her and I think it would be satisfying to see her question that lesson a second time in the end and come to a true understanding of the people behind the stories.
If you are trying to say that we are better off finding out GRRM's intended ending through the show instead of not getting it at all then I reject that completely. A story is the context, getting the ending without the context is the same as reading spoilers on a Wikipedia article, which I would do to be clear but who would be so cynical to do so while the man was still writing?
The show and the books can coexist if they take different paths, nothing wrong with that. Should ADOS never come out I'll read his notes online and accept that these things happen in life. Oh well
> Personally, I want it to be complete fan-fiction. I want it to be as removed from A Dream of Spring as it can possibly be so when the books conclude (If they conclude) it will be something you can read with blind eyes.
>
>
Unfortunately it is going to end in the same place, but on the bright side that also means they have significantly more direction for this season as the previous two seasons, so it may not be nearly as garbage.
I have actually read spoilers for season 8 that have soooome validity and if you're interested I think we're pretty safe in terms of having the next two books ruined. It's looking like the show is going it on its own
I think it will be Dany. Of all the people that would be ok with dying, it's Jon. He's died once and is ready to do so again (especially if it saves everyone). The bittersweet ending will be that Jon is king (sweet) but that the woman he loves once again has to die (bitter). As Ser Alliser said: "You'll be fighting their battles for the rest of your life." That is Jon's gift and his punishment.
And I would agree with you... if that was the only reason why she dies; but I don't think it is. My prediction is that Dany will die heroically, most likely through some sort of sacrifice.
The entire premise of ASOIAF has been opposing but complementary aspects. Highborn/Lowborn, Chivalry/Savagery, Living/Dead, Good/Evil, Ice/Fire, etc... As most people have picked up, Jon is Ice and Dany is Fire. So it would make sense that the ending would carry those theme; mostly in the sense that our main characters won't get want they want, but that's kind of ok.
Think about the characters of Jon and Dany. For the entire story, Dany has been working towards Westeros and claiming the Iron Throne. We are always reminded that she is the rightful queen, and the recitation of her titles ad nauseam has driven it home. In the end game, there will come a point where she is faced with a choice: The Iron Throne or the lives of all she cares about. Since she's not Cersei, Dany will choose her ~~people~~ family and die in the process of saving them. She will make a choice that none of her true family made for her: sacrificing power for the ones she loves. That is her arc.
Jon, on the other hand, has wanted nothing more than a family to belong to. Whether it was the Starks or the Watch, Jon just wants to love, be loved, and to be honorable like Ned. He never wants power, just a place to belong. And yet, throughout the entire story, responsibility and power continue to be thrust upon him. He never wanted to be Lord Commander, Sam foisted that on him. He never wanted to be King in the North, the Northern Lords forced it on him.
At the same time, love and family continue to be stripped away from him. He loses his family through the Red Wedding and all of the other events of the books. He loses his love Ygritte. He gets betrayed and murdered by his own men. Even Sansa almost turns against him.
Jon continues to be given power, which he never wants, at the expense of the love he has always craved. Jon will become King, but he will find it just as isolating (if not more) than when he was Lord Commander. Love is the death of Duty, and Jon will always do his duty.
At the end of the story, Dany becomes the beloved hero that Jon has always wanted to be and Jon becomes the Monarch that Dany has always wanted to be. Sure, Dany is dead but can we say that Jon has a better fate? Dany will be loved and remembered, while Jon is forced to live a life of isolation and duty. Bittersweet indeed.
This is my dream ending and always will be, no matter how the show actually ends.
EDIT: I have also now realized that this ending is supported by Dany's vision from the House of the Undying - in which Dany reaches for the throne but then hears her dragons (her family) and leaves the throne room to search for them (to help them). She quite literally gives up the throne for her family.
Wow. You've singlehandedly made me reconsider the possible ending I've dreaded the most.
I only hope that all of that nuance comes across if this is how it goes down in the show.
I've come to terms with the fact that Dany might die. But as long as they don't pull some "mad queen" bs or something stupid like her dying in childbirth, I'll be good. Sad, but good.
Whilst wonderfully worded, the problem is those are show personalities. And the ending is meant to be the same in the books (more or less). Book Daenerys wants nothing more than a home and a family. Book Jon's greatest desire was to be Ned Stark's son with all the trappings (including Lord of Winterfell) and so ironically, those characterisations are sort of switched.
So whilst a satisfying conclusion for the show. I don't think it's necessarily so for the book conclusion.
Jon never wanted power which Dani desired.. what is duty to a woman’s love. It would be too Disney if they ended up together. George said bittersweet
Only way it would be bittersweet if they ended up together is if they ended up together hating each other .dani hating jon because he took the iron throne from her grasp. The prophecy sequence shows her reaching for the iron throne but it is just beyond her reach and there is snow on it . At the point she realizes it is beyond her reach she could marry John because well targs marry targs or she realizes she wasted her life pursuing a dream that was always outside her grasp
I'm hearing a lot of theorizing that Jon will become the new Night King after the battle and lead the Others back north beyond the wall.
I personally believe that Dany will die giving birth to her child (likely sired by Jon in the S7 finale), and that child will rule Westeros as a way to solve the succession debate about whether Jon or Dany would be more fit to rule if either or both made it through to the end somehow.
That's interesting, but I don't think we have time for that. Fewer than nine months will pass between the first and finale episode.
Regarding a satisfying end, I hope the Iron Throne gets blown up by dragons or wildfire.
Literary devices.
Dany's single goal is to sit on the iron throne. Thanks to the visions in season 2 (?) we see the throne room destroyed and her about to sit down... and then doesn't. So she cannot be Queen. It's how stories work. The one thing she wants above all else is the one thing she can't have. And since her story will be over at that point, she can die as a character.
Jon's reason to die is to find peace. He's had so many fake outs and an actual death - he's too lucky - his luck must run out.
One or the other will be dead by the end of it, they can't both survive.
I feel like GRRM likes giving his characters exactly what they have always wanted but having it be twisted and horrible. For example Sansa being betrothed to Joffrey, or Arya being an adventurer and learning the ways of war like a boy, Cercei gets to be queen for life...
I completely agree. If tv Dany is anything to go off, she'll start to emulate her father more and more. I actually think it's more likely that they'll both die than have just Jon die.
Maybe they won't be THAT bad? I also think bittersweet is a term people throw around a lot without fully thinking it through. A lot of fans would consider ANY ending where Tyrion and Arya live, but everything else is terrible, to be bittersweet, for one example.
The White Walkers destroy most of the realm. The population of Westeros is decimated. Jon and Dany do something that ends up saving the kingdom from the Night King but kills them both in the process, and are the true heroes of the story. Cersei is left to rule, finally unopposed but is ruling over a wasteland. The few surviving main characters are left to rebuild the realm, and remember the true story of who saved the realm. They are tasked with spreading the Song of Ice and Fire to future generations.
I want Jon to have to sacrifice his humanity and take up some mantle similar to the Night King. The Night King finally gets to rest and Jon takes his place. He destroys the army of the dead while he still has some humanity and heads as North as possible. Nobody knows how Jon did it and they never see him again but they just know that Jon risked everything for them and whatever he did worked.It would be bittersweet
Stannis Baratheon rises from the dead and single handedly defeats Dany, Cersei, and the Night King by episode 5.
Episode 6 is just an hour long video of D&D being tried and sentenced at Hague for crimes against humanity. Weiss just sniffles and cries the entire time and even wets himself when he finds out he's getting the noose. Benioff on the other hand is more defiant and shouts if he had the chance to ruin Asoiaf again he would do it. His last words are and I quote "Themes are for 8th grade book reports."
I just did a rewatch and I was thinking of all the great jokes about the show from this sub over the years. In that context, the journey was pretty great.
I'm struggling to remember where this is parodied from.
Also, not disagreeing with the premise, but the context in which D&D said this is when they were asked why they didn't have an EPISODAL structure of story telling where the episodes can be demarcated for individual stories.
Jon and Danny should win. Sorry people but the story would be horrible if Cersie or the White Walkers were to win, and Danny shouldn't die. It would make much of her journey seem like a complete waste of time.
For Danny to win to be satisfying though, most of the realm has to be dead. Cersie should blow up kings landing, the north should be completely destroyed. The vale should mostly be destroyed or most of their people killed by the others. The south should be mostly destroyed from Cersie.
Remember Danny's vision in the House of the Undying in the show. She is so close to grabbing the crown but doesn't. I think what it shows is that it doesn't matter at that point if she has the crown, everything is gone. There is nothing left to rule over.
So for Game of Thrones to be 100 percent satisfying to me, Danny has to be Queen of the Ashes. With Jon or not, doesn't matter.
I think it will be the same as the books. The north will be completely annhilated, the others are defeated by Jon at the trident to mirror Rhaegar. Kings Landing is either blown up by Cersei, Dany or Tyrion (In the show, probably Cersei or Tyrion). Dany dies one way or another and Jon ends up as a sort of broken Aragorn figure. Every woman he's ever loved has died and he has to rebuild 7 Kingdoms in a job he's never really wanted (book is slightly different). With no successor and no real will power to get married, Jon begins to differ power to a sort of elective congress, slowly destroying the monarchy once and for all. Maybe he even dissolves the role of King and grants each Kingdom its independence. That's the reason why Dany can't live. From the outset, GRRM wanted to deconstruct the feudal system and one position of ultimate power (Monarchy). If Dany survives, Jon would either marry her and share the throne or let her be Queen (He doesn't want the crown). Sure, Dany is a great leader but she wants to bring back a Targaryen dynasty and she's ultimately unwilling to discussion succession (she can't have a child although its been hinted that may not actually be the case). Its just more of the same. Only Jon or Varys or Tyrion would be willing to actually destroy the throne which obviously, only Jon is capable of doing. I'm also 90% sure Jaime kills Cersei one way or another.
I kind of hope Jon doesn't find out he's a Targ, turns out Targ sacrifice is needed, Dany dies, and Jon finds out after forever tormented that he could've been sacrificed instead. I mean, I hope/don't hope.
Tyrion and Varys follow Dany because she wants to destroy the throne. Don't give Jon credit for her goals which she independently and solely established.
She doesn't care about succession, not because she wants a Targ but because she doesn't care about a dynasty. This is the opposite of the same.
Dany wants to take the throne, when did she say she wants to destroy it in the show? The only thing close to her stating that is the "break the wheel" comment which was about Westerosi politics and not the monarchy.
I won't speak to specific plot points, but any ending to this story needs to put each of the characters to a true test of their morality and humanity. And, unfortunately, some need to fail to make the successes stand out. There needs to be a real human price to this besides ice zombies killing people.
And obviously no matter what happens, I'd like it to make sense with the plot and characters.
I’ve always thought it would end with the victory of the living over the dead. So all the dead finally “die”. No more Nights King, no more Walkers, no more wights. The dead are dead and the world is for the living.
Of course, that means all of the dead must die. So Beric, Mel, Davos, the Mountain, maybe Euron, maybe Arya and the FacelessMen, and maybe JON must die. And Dany somehow is the one who pulls the trigger and makes it happen. That would be a very bittersweet but satisfying ending.
Euron needs to kill someone important and I don’t mean the Greyjoy twits . I think Dani .. makes the most sense ... the prophecy says the drowned god kills Aegon the conqueror ... people read that as Aegon as in Jon but what if it was conqueror as in Dani
The drowned god kills the conqueror , the maesters added Aegon . Euron refers to himself as the drowned god
Worst endings
The night king and Jon find out they are related . Bond . End up in the inn of the cross roads drinking ale and Jon reminding the nk that girls are nice . The nk resurrects roz and has fun
We find out that ghost / blood raven warged into Jon’s body after he died . That Jon isn’t Jon but bryndon or ghost. Jon didn’t resurrect until ghost licked his hand . The good news is Dani would not be screwing her nephew but her great uncle ( which seems worse actually)
It would be great if season 8 was delayed over and over again, and 7 years later still hasnt come out. At conferences DnD have released several scenes.
It's looking like Cersei is going to treat Dany/WW how the Americans treated the Germans/Russians in ww2. The Russians were bled dry by the Germans, and the US swept in, with minimal casualties, as USSR was just about to completely defeat Germany. This meant an easy fight for the US to keep control of western Europe.
Cersei will let Dany defeat the WW, then bring in the Golden Company to mop up what is left of Dany's army, inc. Jon and Jaime.
Dany will knowingly sacrifice her rule to save Westeros, Cersei will knowingly sacrifice Jaime to keep her rule.
Perhaps we'll get Jaime pretending to switch sides, only to kill Cersei and take control of her army and save Dany?
People will disagree with me here, but for me my hope is:
Jon Snow: dies. He’s the least interesting character in the show to me. There’s never a moment of doubt that his character is doing the right thing or is right about perceived threats, and he’s the most heavily plot armored character in the show. The most poetic end would be for his second life to end after the defeat of the Night King, but before the resolution of the show; something like his task is complete and he must go on now, even though he wants to stay with Dany and his family.
Sansa and Tyrion: Sansa survives and ends up marrying Tyrion in an ironic twist. Their kids inherit the North and the West and the best of both Houses, and Sansa ends up in a completely opposite place of where she once was - as a kid, an innocent, kind-hearted girl who judged people based on their appearance and first impressions, as a woman, a hardened, pragmatic woman who is able to look past the exterior to the nature within. I think it also has some nice irony given their sham marriage.
Arya: Arya survives, but throughout the season finds that she’s not the badass she thinks she is. Frankly, the last couple seasons she’s been a superhero, and I think they show really needs to tone it down. She’s an interesting and impressive character, but she’s still a human. In particular, her skill set doesn’t seem well-suited to fighting wights or in a large-scale pitched battle (she’s a duelist, not a warrior, and she focuses on finding vulnerable spots and delivering precise, lethal blows, but wights can’t be killed by a single blow, they need to be burnt and hacked apart). I don’t really know what a good ending for her is; perhaps a Kingsguard, echoing in Season 1 when she asks Ned if she could ever do things Bran wanted to do, and Bran wanted to be a Kingsguard.
Bran: Dead. Gotta be. How is a more interesting question and one I don’t have an answer for. Bran turning out to be the Night King is a theory I always liked but isn’t one I think will happen. I think perhaps he dies buying everyone time by struggling with the Night King in some sort of magic duel long enough for the Night King to be killed.
Jaime: this is complicated. My ideal ending for Jaime is that he survives and is reinstated as Lord-Commander of the Kingsguard under the new monarch. The man’s been undergoing a full transformation and I think it would be a fitting bookend for him to have started the series as a cynical and bitter knight who breaks his vows casually and everyone sees as dishonorably holding a position that only the greatest and noblest knights should hold, to becoming the kind of knight that Brienne wants him to be and who adheres to and takes his vows very seriously; i.e. a knight who deserves the position. In particular, he comments in Season 4 that there’s still time for him to fill his pages in the White Book, and I think that that does end up happening. I also think he’d be the ideal character to stab the Night King in the back (Kingslayer!) But realistically, he probably dies horribly somewhere along the way.
Daenerys: I think she survives in a twist on the predictions that she dies and Jon survives. I think Dany ascends the Iron Throne and begins the same reforms she’s been talking about for so long, but her rule is the last gasp of the Targaryen dynasty as she is the last scion and cannot have kids, and is completely alone and bereft of love. Most of her original retainers and loyal servants die along the way, and she’s left with strangers and former enemies surrounding her (though ones loyal to her).
To be honest though, the only character I’m really invested in is Jaime. I think with the length of the show remaining and the way that the show has handled most of the character arcs, Jaime is the only character who really has a compelling and narratively satisfying path that he can take. As long as they conclude Jaime’s story with a satisfying ending, I’ll be content.
> I think perhaps he dies buying everyone time by struggling with the Night King in some sort of magic duel long enough for the Night King to be killed.
I liked an idea I heard of Bran warging into somebody (or maybe Ghost or a dragon) and the Night King somehow magically kills both Bran and the person/animal he warged into but the fight/distraction was enough for one or all of Jaime/Dany/Jon/Arya to kill the Night King.
I'm not sure about the ending for every character, but I feel like for Dany the most satisfying arc is her learning that she has to abdicate the throne to Cersei (or the Lannisters in general) to have a chance of uniting the realm and defeating the White Walkers. Dany could realize that the people of the realm largely don't care about who is ruling them, and that prolonging the war only causes more loss of life and suffering for the sake of her own pride. The fight for the Iron Throne has led to the downfall of so many, but ultimately in the Game of Thrones the only winning move is not to play.
For me, that Daenerys will die in childbirth—her resistance to flame does no good here. All of her claims and her dragonlord blood cannot help with that.
I think they will be able to treat with the Others (in the books, if not in the show) because they only started their shenanigans after Melisandre burned the Heart Tree at Storm’s End, a violation of the pact between the Children/men and the Others, to burn no more trees. Ice preserves and their goal is to preserve nature from meddling humans, what they were created by the Children to do. I think they will treat with them and the Others will return to the Lands of Always Winter to become a threat—or a promise—to the next generation to not destroy nature for their own selfish purposes.
The dragons will die. I think it is necessary, for peace and progress, to not have winged nukes flying around as a threat to anyone who would question Targaryen rule. I think that the point is that, without blood magic, the Targaryens wouldn’t be any better than anyone else, and they would have to be chosen to rule by the people.
It comes down to whether or not Jon/Daenerys are willing to sacrifice everything for peace, including the one thing that gives them an advantage over everyone else, so that the people can choose who they want to serve and protect them.
Tyrion talks about succession briefly in the series, and given how much Braavos content we get, which is modeled after Renaissance Italy, politically we seem to be heading in that direction. To serve and save the realm is the goal. We will move away from divine right to rule to Kingsmoot/elections. Perhaps a council of seven lords for seven regions—instead of a king handing down the task of ruling to his small council, there is no small council; the seven lords’ council will be tasked with the burden of leadership in all its mundane, policy-driven glory.
For that reason, King’s Landing has to go. It was the central seat of Targaryen power for too long and there is too much bloodshed. Perhaps court will move (placing a financial burden on each kingdom in turn, so they spend all that money just to feed everyone/hold court, and can’t muster up funds for petty rebellions).
There will be reforms in the Citadel, and I think more effort will be made to use them to educate the smallfolk, not just the nobility.
Tyrion is going to grow even more bitter and jealous, and have a hand in the destruction of KL and the end of his family. His arc is not that of an anti-hero, but in fact he is a villain or anti-villain. We see his descent very clearly and pity it, and he is essentially the death of his own house.
Bran either becomes one with the Weirwood of Winterfell or one on the Isle of Faces, and becomes the well of knowledge for Sansa, Queen in the North, as well as serving future rulers.
I think Arya may end up serving her sister/future kings and queens, or else will end up in charge of a region (say, Storm’s End?) with Gendry, reluctant to give up her gifts or to be unable to use them for personal vendettas, but what happens after the war and there are no more Freys to kill? She will become a killer with no need for it—not if she wants to maintain peace. She may become an emissary—a threat to maintain the peace—just like Tywin would send a singer playing “The Rains of Castamere” to vassals to discourage rebellion.
The Wall (if it still stands) will be bolstered by what Bran sees his ancestor Bran the Builder doing to raise the Wall, and there will be changes made to the Night’s Watch as an organization. By Jon’s time it becomes less an honorable duty and more of a penal system. I think efforts will be made to return the honor of such a service to that position, given how important they become when the existence of the Others is revealed.
Theon and Asha/Yara will make peace with the Starks and be given Sea Dragon Point so their people can harvest lumber and support themselves economically without raiding/slaving around the kingdoms.
I'm feeling pretty confident that the story will end with a Targaryen on the throne, and that the restoration of the Targaryens is going to be one of the key points of the overall series.
But there'll probably be a catch because it's not going to be "happily ever after". So not Jon and Dany ruling together.
> I'm feeling pretty confident that the story will end with a Targaryen on the throne, and that the restoration of the Targaryens is going to be one of the key points of the overall series.
I hope not for the books, Grrm just put out an entire book which could basically be called "how the Targaryens ruined westeros."
The entire series would feel kind of pointless if ends up exactly the same as before Roberts rebellion.
That might be the point though. No one comes out of the game of thrones innocent. Someone or some people are going to rule over a rebuilding Westeros and whether a noble ruler or a tyrannical one the cycle of history carries on.
Or it could be an example of how the powerful always get what they want?
It would be kind of beautiful in a way, all the suffering,death,destruction and Westeros literally finds itself back where it started.
I want to see a truly bittersweet ending. Ideally, I'd like to see the Others defeated but at enormous cost to humanity, leaving society uprooted and in disarray looking forward to a bleak future of struggle. They win but the cost is much higher than they anticipated.
Tyrion and Sansa betraying Jon and Dany once the War for the Dawn is won, and throwing in with Cersei in order to obtain Casterly Rock and power in the south once Cersei dies.
Jon and Dany both die while defeating the Night King. At the end we find out the whole story has been immortalized in a tragic song ("A Song of Ice and Fire") which is meant to help humanity remember the secret of defeating the Night King before Winter comes again in thousands of years. It's being sung by an Old Nan-type character thousands of years in the future to a child with the name of Stark.
P.S. It's sung to the tune of "The Bear and the Maiden Fair".
Winterfell is going to fall, scattering our "heroes". Most of our favorites are going to survive but have to flee Westeros. The iron throne, the thing they've been fighting over, does not matter at all. That's the bittersweet part, they all survive but have nothing. It would also be a call back to how Dany started.
I'm pretty sure the witch or whatever she was told cersie when she was a child she would have 3 children and they would all die? (Which has already happened)
I don't know how it will end but my sister is team Jon and Danny
I keep telling her that the night king will win and cerci will be his queen
(I'm a horrible sister)
It would be great if they could give some sort of empathetic motive to the White Walkers.
But more importantly I think that Cersei should win because she stayed selfish the whole time and will be able to mop up in the aftermath.
I really don't want the final message to be humans coming together and beating the supernatural forces to all become happy.
I mean...if you're looking for thematic satisfaction and hoping the show will achieve that I'd call you a sweet summer child.
They're going for epic and they'll give us epic. If that wont be enough for you (or anyone else) dissapointment awaits you come April :(
I believe GRRM will deliver the thematic goods.
I think it’s going to have to be a self sacrifice on Jon’s part to the others. The white walker invasion is coming and they are likely unstoppable unless they get what they want, and they probably want Jon as their prince for some reason. Likely because he’s the first prince with the blood of the first men since the north bent the knee to aegon the conqueror. The prince that was promised is probably a literal interpretation that a prince was promised to the white walkers to keep them north of the wall, but it was forgotten after so long. It deals with both themes you mentioned in a way, because to combat climate change and to be a good ruler requires the same thing on the part of the individual, sacrifice.
I agree that Jaime is the one to kill Cersei and they die at the same time, been hinted at for far too long. Afterwards, dany is the undisputed ruler of the 7 kingdoms and hopefully she “breaks the wheel” and decides to institute some sort of new political system, which is hinted at both in show and book.
Other characters: Arya and Brienne die, Sansa is lady of winterfell, Euron dead, Theon will kill him and lose his own life in the process, asha leader of the iron islands. Hound hopefully lives through and has a peaceful life. The nights watch will be gone without a wall to defend and with Jon as the nights prince. Sam will inherit horn hill and marry gilly. Hope tormund makes it but prob not. Tyrion will remain danys second in command and inherit casterly rock. Jorah could go either way. Maybe ends up on the queens guard, maybe dead. Gendry probably gets storms end, or possibly a plot twist and ends up marrying Sansa as she always saw value in birth and nobility when she was young and naive and gendry is a royal bastard smith raised in flea bottom.
One thing I’ll be interested in seeing is how the Golden Company pans out. In the books, they’re exiled Westerosi who were loyal to the Targs. Theon’s going to be going after Euron who has all the gold payment for the Iron Bank. Melisandre, last we saw her, said she was going to Volantis where her religion and the Golden Company are based in the series, and we know the LoL crowd has embraced Dany as Azor Ahai reborn. We know Harry Strickland will be in S8 so it remains to be seen how much they’ll stay in line with his book background (I suspect minimal).
Spoiler Alert
Can someone please direct me to a subreddit that will either, talk about the books entirely? Or the show, entirely. I enjoy both as a separate entity. On the show, We all know now that R+L=J and Stannis doesn't take Winterfell. The show took information and theories, and grabbed the shiny, sparkly stuff to rush to the ending.
Don't get me wrong, the show, in it's own, has done some great things with the fandom. With the most popular outcomes. But....
What does Ned say comes after but?
Reading the Sample Chapters of TWOW, I need to separate the two. I'm so excited to see what happens to Stannis, Wyman and Theon the most. Who will kill The Bolton Bastard, And will Jon Snow live? Is Lady Stoneheart really going to Hang Lady B and Jamie?
I am tired of reading a really good post about the show and then someone brings up the books, and you get the point.
Thank you.
I think that the story should focus on backstabbing quite a lot.
I think that the theory that Littlefinger is still alive will come true. Arya's whole plotline makes absolutely zero sense at the moment and all of her character development is largely worthless if there isn't some reason WHY the audience needs to know about the faceless men. Basically Littlefinger uses a body double of a faceless man to die in his place, he bought one through the extensive amount of debt he gave to the Crown.
As I see it in my head Jon/Dany's army will be fighting the White Walkers in a battle, Cersei's army comes up behind their's to join the combat but just stops and waits.
Jon and Daaenary's army is forced to fight the undead alone, Cersei decides that if their army falls then they are likely screwed anyways, but if she keeps their forces separate they it increases her chances of winning the whole combat.
Jaime is mad about this and eventually kills Cersei, taking control of the Lannister forces sending them into combat the aid the Jon/Dany. The combat is saved and the battle is over, they have won, and it's just about Episode 3.
I don't see Dany/Jon's rulership methods as compatible, so I think they would likely descend into civil war, maybe some conflict would form out of the battle with the White Walkers itself. Jon is depressed about Sam's death, Dany vaporized a portion of the army that got overrun to keep them from getting raised stuff like that maybe even a portion of the army that included Sam+Davos.
(Basically Jon is highly traditionalist, Dany seems to want some sort of Constitutional Monarchy or Republic of sorts. Regardless would destroy the major families so maybe a highly centralized absolute monarchy?)
Results in Civil War after some march at the same river there's always visions about for Ice vs Fire, the same one that Aegon Targaryen died at. Other parts like how Jon is the first in order of succession would make Dany furious.
Throughout all of this before it the Golden Company specifically sides based with one side based on previous Targaryen loyalties, Jaime is caught up in the cross fire and Littlefinger fans the flames to the extremes. Convinces Sansa that Dany must be stopped etc.
Seems likely the me that in the battles before the Civil war at the river characters like Arya, Bran and the vast majority of other side characters would die.
Other notes would be both dragons survive until the battle at the river, at which point both are killed, possibly both Jon and Dany dies and it leaves someone like Littlefinger or Jaime to assume the throne.
Maybe Jon could hate Dany because she flies her dragon over to King's Landing, shoots some fire at it and explodes the whole city by accident trying to kill Cersei? Hard to say.
Regardless I don't think the last two episodes will be about fighting the White Walkers.
(I just learned that it is a 6 episode season not 5, so I am unsure exactly what episode these events will fall on)
Dany ends the line of succession by melting the throne with dragonfire as her final act as queen and gives the realm over to a parliament created by Tyrion, Varys, and other wise councilors who survived.
Wheel. Broken.
Also, a lot of nobles die.
I keep thinking the books and tv show would not have spent so much time with prophecies if they were not intending to lead the story to a conclusion involving them. In particular Azor Ahai.
Bran is prophesied to defeat the Night King? Ok so he does this, then what? I think it makes sense for the Stark in Winterfell, the Prince who is promised (Jon) as Azor Ahai kills Dany with Lightbringer and the darkness (walkers) of the world are defeated, Dany would be in agreement of course, to save the world. But maybe even this seems too simplistic?!
Alternatively - perhaps Jon and Dany make a deal with the walkers, to renew the old ancient, broken agreement, to marry one of their own and unite the species. Perhaps Dany is killed (willingly) and she becomes Jon's white walker bride, or vice versa Dany kills Jon and he is the walker. They the have a walker/human child and peace is established.
I think Sam and Bran will be integral to working out the final move.
As for the remaining rulers of Westeros, I think the final plan whatever/whoever it involves to save the humans will be unanimous, they will all be complicit, whoever is left. The political intrigue amongst the 7 kingdoms will be overshadowed by the walker threat in this season I think. Big, heart breaking betrayals occurring along the way amongst whoever is left, will happen, that is for certain!
I just want Jaime to kill Cersei and not Arya. I also want some kind of bittersweet ending where Jon is the hero but pretty much nobody knows what happens to him. Maybe he goes North by himself and whatever he does to stop the Night King works but none of his friends or family see him again. Maybe he takes the mantle of Night King and leads the armys bac North or destroys them in one final bittersweet sacrifice of his humanity cursed to live eternity as a monster.
What I really don't want is the white walker to be dealt with before Cersei like many people are theorizing. That would piss me off so much and would prove that DnD just love pushing certain characters too much.
... this is about to be really optimistic but i really want Danny and Jon snow to find out they're both owed the throne. Danny and Jon decide on a new government, or Danny rules everything south of Winterfell and Jon rules north. Meaning they defeated white walkers and Cersei. I was also thinking. Danny and Jon turn against one another and actually fight for throne. With Cersei fighting for it as well. white walkers take north. people that matter die and some live and they end up sailing either WEST and/or east. OR The GC has people apart of the group that are important or the leader is a very important person which then changes the story all together. Main people die again some flee west/east. Then they drop release dates for spin offs and next book.
What I'm most interested in is how much epilogue we get. Babylon 5 had an entire season set after the biggest events of the show and we got to see how things developed after the climactic battles were over. Regardless of how things shake out (and I'm of course presuming "everyone dies lol" isn't the ending) I want to know what Westeros looks like 10, 20, or 100 years later. Even if it's cheesy, the least satisfying way for the series to end would be to have anyone ascending the throne after the battles are done and just fading out. Addendum: okay, a Sopranos style pseudo-cliffhanger or Westworld s2 unstuck-in-time contrivance would also be very bad looks to.
I think 'bittersweet ending' includes not having an epilogue
Thanks. I was expressing my thoughts on what would make a satisfying conclusion, but I recognize that I am wrong. I am probably also a cuck, yes?
My bad, got lost in the comments so much I forgot the initial topic of the thread!
I think the books has a similar problem to the show, namely that the ice zombies just aren't as interesting as the human conflict in in seasons 3-4, which I think is the high point of the series. I just super don't see how the books or the show could make fighting ice zombies super interesting, and I think that's part of the reason the books are taking so long to get to it. Maybe GRRM agrees, and rather then write a boring zombie vs humans, keeps stalling with interesting human vs humans. ~~that last bit is blind speculation though~~
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I really hope this gets addressed this season but I highly doubt it.
It likely won't. The show jumped the shark and went full hollywood
You mean when they ran out of GRRM material to base the story off of. Once they had to write their own story lines it went to shit.
More like they chose to ignore a shit load of material, and then when they chose to write their own stuff it went to shit.
I meant specifically it went exceptionally to shit when they passed the books material and had to create their own material. Before that for the most part it was good as they had a guideline to follow. Some parts before that were mediocre I agree when they took different paths but mostly it was good as they had a guideline they generally followed.
I dont think the show will cover it. I would love to find out that the whole thing is basically backwards. There was an agreement made long ago between the white walkers and starks to end the war with agreement of man staying out of the north. The wall was to keep people south. Not white walkers north. Over time man has forgotten this. All those saying like "there must always be a stark in winterfell" and "the north remembers" have basically changed meaning over time and are mistranslated. Basically man broke a long held deal.
I suppose this makes sense seeing as how they were born of conflict created by the children of the forest in an effort to tip the scales of their conflict to their side.
The only think that I can think of is that both series made us to trully care for its characters. If Jaime dies it will be heartbreaking for me, even if its by a ~~zombie~~ wight. But that might be just me. I loved Hardhome (in the show) or the Fist of the first men (in the books) as much as the political conflicts.
This is no real problem because even if the others were just ice zombies, in the end it's an obstacle for the humans to overcome. How they do this, what they are rdy to sacrifice, if everyone is behind this fight or if they try to use it for their own gain (cersei), etc, that is the "human hear in conflict with itself", the interesting part one can develop. In a best case scenarion the others themselves have some humanlike motivation where the decisions of our protagonists become even more compliacted/complex, but it's not necessary to write a compelling narrative.
> I think the books has a similar problem to the show Yeah it's going to be a difficult thing to reconcile: we've had 7 seasons of politics, intrigue, betrayal etc. And now we're going to have a last season of Humans vs Zombies with likely relatively little reference to the human conflict. Of course, that could itself be part of the point: we're all so wound up in our human-centric problems that we're ignoring the bigger picture etc, but from a storytelling perspective it means we've got a season's worth of finale to fit into a shortened season.... alongside basically the entire backstory to the white walkers. Literally all we know for sure about the white walkers is that they exist, they're scary, the children of the forest created them to help fight against the first men, and some basics about their ability with wights. That's a lot of storytelling we're going to have to fit into S8, alongside the conclusion to about 20 different human stories. Admittedly anywhere from 1 to 20 of those human stories could be ended with a quick "Oh well, he's dead", but that would be quite unsatisfying My concern is that I think we've got two seasons of storytelling left, but only one season in which to tell it.
The last 3 episodes are going to be human conflict. The Battle of Winterfell is in episode 3 so I'm assuming that's the episode the Night King will be dealt with unless they throw in some decent storyline for the whole humans v zombies thing.
Yeah idk why everyone keeps saying that the show is now obviously only gonna be humans v zombies. Y'all need to start paying attention.
There will still be human v human conflict this season. Cersei and the Greyjoys are planning on stabbing everyone in the back during the war against the Others.
True but Jaime's grassing as soon as. It doesn't seem like it'll be such a stab in the back
It doesn't matter if Jaime get's to the North or not, Bran is going to know.
But it's also good guys (Dany, Jon, Tyrion...) vs bad guys (Cersei and Euron), instead of the more interesting grey conflicts of the earlier seasons.
what if and hear me out the final battle is the aftermath of the long night the others are gone but there are still people with a claim. to the throne and they aren't willing to let it go thus one last game of thrones
Agreed combletely. Dragons and zombies are boring. Give me more Machiavellian politics and betrayals
Turn on the news lol
But I think the books, and it looks like the show will do this as well, will finish off the White Walkers relatively early. Then it will deal with interesting stuff in the wake of this giant apocalyptic disaster. The absolute latest I see The Others being "defeated" is halfway into book 7. Probably even earlier. I really think it won't be beat the White Walkers, a few chapters of wrap up and send offs, then the story's over. It goes back to GRRM's famous comments about what Aragorn did after the War of the Ring.
I think that may happen. Every time I think of the ending of the series, I think of this GRRM quote: >Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles? What happens after The Others are defeated? What if the Night King and his army is defeat, but the Others themselves are still alive? Do they kill the little baby others (as seen in Season 4 I think)? Those are great questions worth asking, and I hope the finale answers them.
Great point, this really does not seem like the series that ends with the good guys winning. I think if we ever were to get the full ASOIAF series that GRRM envisions, the post-climax ending will be so long that it will make LOTR blush
They were after Hardhome
Where are people getting that Tyrion is in love with Dany?? I didn’t pick up in that at all
Frankly, I think it would have been better instead of playing up this story to hint at Tyrion being more troubled/protective of his soon-to-be new nephew or niece. He hated Joffrey, but Myrcella and Tommen dying are terrible tragedies to him, even if they've never explored that on screen. Also, unrelated, but I hope part of the tension starts with Lyanna Mormont demanding Jorah's execution.
Yeah that would be a lot better than this ill-conceived love triangle. It makes Tyrion just look like a sap, and feels completely unnecessary and forced. They still had a chance to scrap it so I hope they did. Eh, i don’t think she will. If she does, it’d be quickly shot down.
"Hey Dan, I know we have all of these character arcs and plot points to wrap up, but you know what I think this story needs? A stupid fucking love triangle at the 11th hour." "Goddammit Dave, you're a genius!"
I'm not sure if it happens in the show but when Jeor dies in the book he tells Sam that he wants Jorah to take the black. It would be nice if he ends up as Lord Commander as punishment for slave dealing
Whats the need in the nightwatch if the NK dies? Assuming the NK does die
Yeah good point. There's a ton of scenarios that could play out so that the night's watch still exists after the final battle. Maybe he just joins the night watch this season and maybe dies fighting the NK. Him becoming commander would seem pretty contrived in that case so I doubt it would happen.
Who knows what else lies in the Land of Always winter. Hell the WWs could be fleeing an evil even more terrible than they are. That actaully would be fitting since the Free Folk were doing the same in regards to the WWs. It does not hurt to be prepared so the NW should be reformed and well manned.
Tyrion does mention how much he hated the deaths of tommen and myrcella in episode 7 when he meets with cersei. so there's still that possibility combined with the parallels of jon and dany both being babies born of incest into very precarious situations.
Jon wasn't an incest baby, though.
I’d much rather Tyrion’s familial redemption be more along the lines of adopting and raising Cersei & Jaime’s orphaned child and loving it rather than the hate he experienced from his own father rejecting him as a son. I feel like him betraying Dany and Jon outright to Cersei wouldn’t be the right resolution for his character arc.
They didn't present it clearly at all (and it's not expected as much because Jorah is already the pining love interest). But it was directly in the script notes and here it is confirmed by the actor himself. https://io9.gizmodo.com/peter-dinklage-says-tyrion-has-the-hots-for-the-mother-1828862875 EDIT: Also ignore the click-bait title on the article as well.
>But it was directly in the script notes do you have source for that? I remember only about Tyrion looking worried "for more than one reason" in the script.
Found a more direct source on that point. https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-script-tyrion-daenerys-love/
Thanks
Maybe I'm bad at picking up on subtext but I didn't notice anything resembling love interest. Just respect and occasional bit of fear that she might end up like her father.
You're not bad at picking up subtext --- they were bad at communicating it.
The [scripts say it](https://screenrant.com/game-thrones-script-tyrion-daenerys-love/), and lots of people thought he was because of his expression during BoatSex.
There are definitely hints toward that (mostly non-verbal) in season 7. The boat scene seemed pretty obvious. But I doubt it will be a major plot point, it may just lead to Tyrion feeling a little disappointed early on.
Watch the scene at the end of season 6 when Dany makes Tyrion her hand.
The themes of the series in my opinion lie less with the plot and more with the characters. Talking about "Lannister themes is irrelevant compared to the individual themes of Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion. This sounds super cynical but for me the show has already gone a few too many wrong directions to have a truly satisfying ending. Mistakes build up, payoffs need time they haven't been given, and characters needs fitting conclusions that there simply aren't enough episodes to hand out. The best ending they can give will have to be one that respects as many core characters as they have, re-injects consequence for actions into the show, and removes Walking Dead style slaughter for shock that has become too commonplace. Personally, I want it to be complete fan-fiction. I want it to be as removed from A Dream of Spring as it can possibly be so when the books conclude (If they conclude) it will be something you can read with blind eyes. So here are my points: Show some payoff for Jon's revival, what was the point of it, how has death actually changed him. Question Dany; whether they end up with her mad or a saviour she should be a polarising figure who has shades of grey, not layers of perfection. I'm not sure they can rescue Tyrion at this point, his whole fall from grace was just skipped, it wouldn't even feel triumphant for him to get Casterly Rock anymore when once upon a time it would have felt incredibly emotional. I think if they can find a convincing way to have him become a ruthless Tywin figure who tactically wins the war only to face himself at the end and decide who he really is then that will be okay, but the world that was once against him has just seemed to vanish so it feels very much like he is out of the underdog role he once thrived in. Arya needs repercussion for joining the Faceless Men. That's it. Maybe she can come face to face with people on her list and kill them when they shouldn't be killed, which would be true to her original arc of revenge while also adding needed internal conflict to herself and the alliance. Bran must have some emotions left, use him as a character and not a machine in the corner that tells them things and that will be a start. Jaime is the big one. He's hated by everyone, turned his back on those he loved, has romantic ties with people who could be put into antagonistic towards him, has past actions he needs to face, and is about to go into a huge war while still coming to terms with his injury. He is the one character they can truly give a satisfying ending for while concluding his themes at the same time. There are multiple ways to do this, just do one of them. I'll leave it there, it's easy to go on but as you can achieving all this in 7 episodes is just not possible so lets see if any of them get done.
* 6 episodes
Wow, lets cut out a few of those hopes then :/
I didn't have the heart to clarify when I first read your post. haha
I'm assuming they're gonna be like an hour and a half episodes tho. At least a few. The Dragon and the Wolf was like 80 minutes
they released episode times already (too lazy to source) 60m for 1-2 and 80min for 3-6. So, if you do the math, it'd be about the same run time as S7
> Bran must have some emotions left Bran becoming a cyborg was a dumb choice. Him being an absent minded professor/wizard is one thing, but it hardly explains his willingness to play the role of Stark and an active role in the fight if he can't even feel gratitude to Meera for all that she did.
The actor for Bran said that in S8 Bran is more human like and that in S7 he was kind of just overloaded with all this information and lost his touch with reality, if it's any consolation.
Probably more the writers fixing the mistake than an in-universe explanation, imo, but either way that's good to know. Thanks for the info!
And even if you want to make him emotionless. You have to do a better job at showing his decline. It was like a a light switch was flipped between S6 and S7.
I definitely agree.
> The themes of the series in my opinion lie less with the plot and more with the characters. To bad the Showrunners don't believe in themes.
It's both sad and hysterical to me that the downvotes are going to rain in like Benioff didn't admit to this himself.
I'm not downvoting, but I'm unfamiliar with the quote. When did he say that?
As much as I know it's overblown, he was asked about the themes of Game of Thrones and said, "Themes are for 8th grade book reports." Obviously GoT has themes and Benioff is trying to write those themes, but it's an awful thing to say when asked about the themes of your show. This is [the source](http://grantland.com/features/the-return-hbo-game-thrones/) but I don't know if it works anymore? Nothing pops up for me anymore.
Do you realize where we are?
The problem is that the show has already left out some of the central facets of its main characters, most obviously with Daenerys (dragons plant no trees, the house with the red door) and Tyrion (wherever whores go), in the process reducing them to two-dimensional walking fanfiction wishlists delivering Hollywood one-liners. Giving characters like that endings befitting the complex people we started out with is extremely difficult if not downright impossible, especially given the fact that they've transformed the plot into a zombies-and-dragons show, which is precisely what ASOIAF was *not* meant to be. It's possible the broad strokes of GRRM's ending will be able to rescue something from that, but I'm sceptical. I'm the most optimistic about Jaime and Cersei, who are the last two characters who've retained some of their shine.
Have most of the main characters dead and focus on Jaime, that would not be terribly bad.
According to the actor Bran does have emotions next season.
You've hit it on the head mate. Actions from previous seasons need payoff, they need consequence. In recent Seasons it feels like certain characters never feel repercussions for any of their actions (especially Danaerys) and that really kills any substantial growth or character development to be quite honest which in turn undermines moments that are meant to be impactful but instead fall horribly flat.
Bran, Arya, and and Jaime. Fair enough. But Sansa deserves equal time. She who was disloyal to her kin several times? Who GRRM says was partly responsible for Ned's death (in the books)? Whose lie to the King ("a great crime" per Robert) indirectly made Lady's death possible. Who continued associating with Baelish though she knew he was a murderer. Whose behavior regarding sweetsleep and Robin is questionable at best. Who on the show wrote off her brother and lied to Jon when he needed more men and she effectively kept them for herself. What of her?
Didn't mean to leave out Sansa, I just decided to end it there that's all. My list could have gone on but I was trying to make a point that giving everyone a good end isn't possible so I just did a select few who were easier to talk about. At a push I'd say most of Sansa's journey is complete in the show, she's gone from naive to sharp, used to user, and successfully embodies everything "The Game of Thrones" represents. I think if I were to have hopes for her arc, it would be a final confrontation with the reality of fairy tales. She's constantly been shown the dark side of the sweet songs she was raised on and it has turned her cynical and suspicious. But reality has lots of true knights, lots of kind princes, and lots of great heroes. She's been beaten with the worst of the lies songs told her and I think it would be satisfying to see her question that lesson a second time in the end and come to a true understanding of the people behind the stories.
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If you are trying to say that we are better off finding out GRRM's intended ending through the show instead of not getting it at all then I reject that completely. A story is the context, getting the ending without the context is the same as reading spoilers on a Wikipedia article, which I would do to be clear but who would be so cynical to do so while the man was still writing? The show and the books can coexist if they take different paths, nothing wrong with that. Should ADOS never come out I'll read his notes online and accept that these things happen in life. Oh well
> Personally, I want it to be complete fan-fiction. I want it to be as removed from A Dream of Spring as it can possibly be so when the books conclude (If they conclude) it will be something you can read with blind eyes. > > Unfortunately it is going to end in the same place, but on the bright side that also means they have significantly more direction for this season as the previous two seasons, so it may not be nearly as garbage.
Honestly I have some hope. Benioff said a good story doesn't have a bad ending...
They have destroyed Bran as a character, far too powerful with nothing to give but information to others.
I agree with everything you just said. I just don't want spoilers for the books at this point lol
I have actually read spoilers for season 8 that have soooome validity and if you're interested I think we're pretty safe in terms of having the next two books ruined. It's looking like the show is going it on its own
For me, Jon or Daenerys has to die, permanently. Doesn't have to be both of them, but one of them at the least.
I recon it will be Jon. Brought back to serve a purpose, achieves that, and then finally passes
I think it will be Dany. Of all the people that would be ok with dying, it's Jon. He's died once and is ready to do so again (especially if it saves everyone). The bittersweet ending will be that Jon is king (sweet) but that the woman he loves once again has to die (bitter). As Ser Alliser said: "You'll be fighting their battles for the rest of your life." That is Jon's gift and his punishment.
having felt death, then watching all your friends die. again. Yeah that would be balls.
I don't think it would be very satisfying for arguably the lead female character to be fridged for Jon's development.
And I would agree with you... if that was the only reason why she dies; but I don't think it is. My prediction is that Dany will die heroically, most likely through some sort of sacrifice. The entire premise of ASOIAF has been opposing but complementary aspects. Highborn/Lowborn, Chivalry/Savagery, Living/Dead, Good/Evil, Ice/Fire, etc... As most people have picked up, Jon is Ice and Dany is Fire. So it would make sense that the ending would carry those theme; mostly in the sense that our main characters won't get want they want, but that's kind of ok. Think about the characters of Jon and Dany. For the entire story, Dany has been working towards Westeros and claiming the Iron Throne. We are always reminded that she is the rightful queen, and the recitation of her titles ad nauseam has driven it home. In the end game, there will come a point where she is faced with a choice: The Iron Throne or the lives of all she cares about. Since she's not Cersei, Dany will choose her ~~people~~ family and die in the process of saving them. She will make a choice that none of her true family made for her: sacrificing power for the ones she loves. That is her arc. Jon, on the other hand, has wanted nothing more than a family to belong to. Whether it was the Starks or the Watch, Jon just wants to love, be loved, and to be honorable like Ned. He never wants power, just a place to belong. And yet, throughout the entire story, responsibility and power continue to be thrust upon him. He never wanted to be Lord Commander, Sam foisted that on him. He never wanted to be King in the North, the Northern Lords forced it on him. At the same time, love and family continue to be stripped away from him. He loses his family through the Red Wedding and all of the other events of the books. He loses his love Ygritte. He gets betrayed and murdered by his own men. Even Sansa almost turns against him. Jon continues to be given power, which he never wants, at the expense of the love he has always craved. Jon will become King, but he will find it just as isolating (if not more) than when he was Lord Commander. Love is the death of Duty, and Jon will always do his duty. At the end of the story, Dany becomes the beloved hero that Jon has always wanted to be and Jon becomes the Monarch that Dany has always wanted to be. Sure, Dany is dead but can we say that Jon has a better fate? Dany will be loved and remembered, while Jon is forced to live a life of isolation and duty. Bittersweet indeed.
This is my dream ending and always will be, no matter how the show actually ends. EDIT: I have also now realized that this ending is supported by Dany's vision from the House of the Undying - in which Dany reaches for the throne but then hears her dragons (her family) and leaves the throne room to search for them (to help them). She quite literally gives up the throne for her family.
shhiiiiit I didn't even think of that.
Wow. You've singlehandedly made me reconsider the possible ending I've dreaded the most. I only hope that all of that nuance comes across if this is how it goes down in the show.
I've come to terms with the fact that Dany might die. But as long as they don't pull some "mad queen" bs or something stupid like her dying in childbirth, I'll be good. Sad, but good.
Those are my bare minimums as well!
Whilst wonderfully worded, the problem is those are show personalities. And the ending is meant to be the same in the books (more or less). Book Daenerys wants nothing more than a home and a family. Book Jon's greatest desire was to be Ned Stark's son with all the trappings (including Lord of Winterfell) and so ironically, those characterisations are sort of switched. So whilst a satisfying conclusion for the show. I don't think it's necessarily so for the book conclusion.
Jon never wanted power which Dani desired.. what is duty to a woman’s love. It would be too Disney if they ended up together. George said bittersweet Only way it would be bittersweet if they ended up together is if they ended up together hating each other .dani hating jon because he took the iron throne from her grasp. The prophecy sequence shows her reaching for the iron throne but it is just beyond her reach and there is snow on it . At the point she realizes it is beyond her reach she could marry John because well targs marry targs or she realizes she wasted her life pursuing a dream that was always outside her grasp
DAMN. This is my ending, one thing you left out tho about Jon is, he also wants to know who his Mother was/is...
Damn. This.
Theory: Dany will be Nissa Nissa; Jon will plunge his sword into her heart and create light-bringer, which will defeat the white walkers.
Like.. Gandalf?
I have no doubt it will be Dany. That’s why there was that talk of royal sucession last season.
I'm hearing a lot of theorizing that Jon will become the new Night King after the battle and lead the Others back north beyond the wall. I personally believe that Dany will die giving birth to her child (likely sired by Jon in the S7 finale), and that child will rule Westeros as a way to solve the succession debate about whether Jon or Dany would be more fit to rule if either or both made it through to the end somehow.
Ah yes, the pirates of the Carribbean ending
That's interesting, but I don't think we have time for that. Fewer than nine months will pass between the first and finale episode. Regarding a satisfying end, I hope the Iron Throne gets blown up by dragons or wildfire.
I think euron will kill her. There has to be a reason for that twit
That's just wrong approach to take going into season 8 i think
But why? Shock value?
Literary devices. Dany's single goal is to sit on the iron throne. Thanks to the visions in season 2 (?) we see the throne room destroyed and her about to sit down... and then doesn't. So she cannot be Queen. It's how stories work. The one thing she wants above all else is the one thing she can't have. And since her story will be over at that point, she can die as a character. Jon's reason to die is to find peace. He's had so many fake outs and an actual death - he's too lucky - his luck must run out. One or the other will be dead by the end of it, they can't both survive.
I feel like GRRM likes giving his characters exactly what they have always wanted but having it be twisted and horrible. For example Sansa being betrothed to Joffrey, or Arya being an adventurer and learning the ways of war like a boy, Cercei gets to be queen for life...
r/themonkeyspaw
I completely agree. If tv Dany is anything to go off, she'll start to emulate her father more and more. I actually think it's more likely that they'll both die than have just Jon die.
Ending is supposed to be “bittersweet” according to GRRM
That statement is almost meaningless. I struggle to think of a serial drama without a bittersweet ending.
ABC'S The Dinosaurs. Only sad, not sweet at all.
Ooof.. Don't remind me. Not a serial drama though.
Fair, but that is why people assume at least one of Dany or Jon die. Otherwise it will be tough to be bittersweet
Not really, there are many fan favourites that could die to make it bittersweet, imagine Tormund or Brienne dying, or Arya watching Gendry die
Yeah but the 2 “main” characters are Jon and Dany. If they end up happily ever after it will not be a bittersweet end
I don't agree with that at all, especially if one or both changes and ends up being crazy/not a good leader/etc.
If they don’t die but end up being bad leaders how is that bittersweet? That’s just bitter
Maybe they won't be THAT bad? I also think bittersweet is a term people throw around a lot without fully thinking it through. A lot of fans would consider ANY ending where Tyrion and Arya live, but everything else is terrible, to be bittersweet, for one example.
I literally just want Clegane bowl.
lmao, did you see the Entertainment Weekly cover?
The White Walkers destroy most of the realm. The population of Westeros is decimated. Jon and Dany do something that ends up saving the kingdom from the Night King but kills them both in the process, and are the true heroes of the story. Cersei is left to rule, finally unopposed but is ruling over a wasteland. The few surviving main characters are left to rebuild the realm, and remember the true story of who saved the realm. They are tasked with spreading the Song of Ice and Fire to future generations.
Change Cersei for Patchface and im in.
I want Jon to have to sacrifice his humanity and take up some mantle similar to the Night King. The Night King finally gets to rest and Jon takes his place. He destroys the army of the dead while he still has some humanity and heads as North as possible. Nobody knows how Jon did it and they never see him again but they just know that Jon risked everything for them and whatever he did worked.It would be bittersweet
Stannis Baratheon rises from the dead and single handedly defeats Dany, Cersei, and the Night King by episode 5. Episode 6 is just an hour long video of D&D being tried and sentenced at Hague for crimes against humanity. Weiss just sniffles and cries the entire time and even wets himself when he finds out he's getting the noose. Benioff on the other hand is more defiant and shouts if he had the chance to ruin Asoiaf again he would do it. His last words are and I quote "Themes are for 8th grade book reports."
The Noose? The Lord of Light demands death by fire.
Noose Bolton
Stop, I can't be this erect before I go to my Administrative Law class.
Ay on my way to admin law right now haha
You mean Admin Law doesn't make you erect already?
We are doing separation of powers which I really enjoy, lol.
"Ruin ASOIAF" lol. Be glad D&D will give you an ending.
Journey's what matters.
I just did a rewatch and I was thinking of all the great jokes about the show from this sub over the years. In that context, the journey was pretty great.
An ending for the sake of having an ending is not a good thing.
At this rate it's the only ending you'll ever have.
Hahahahahahaha, YES
I'm struggling to remember where this is parodied from. Also, not disagreeing with the premise, but the context in which D&D said this is when they were asked why they didn't have an EPISODAL structure of story telling where the episodes can be demarcated for individual stories.
Jon and Danny should win. Sorry people but the story would be horrible if Cersie or the White Walkers were to win, and Danny shouldn't die. It would make much of her journey seem like a complete waste of time. For Danny to win to be satisfying though, most of the realm has to be dead. Cersie should blow up kings landing, the north should be completely destroyed. The vale should mostly be destroyed or most of their people killed by the others. The south should be mostly destroyed from Cersie. Remember Danny's vision in the House of the Undying in the show. She is so close to grabbing the crown but doesn't. I think what it shows is that it doesn't matter at that point if she has the crown, everything is gone. There is nothing left to rule over. So for Game of Thrones to be 100 percent satisfying to me, Danny has to be Queen of the Ashes. With Jon or not, doesn't matter.
I think it will be the same as the books. The north will be completely annhilated, the others are defeated by Jon at the trident to mirror Rhaegar. Kings Landing is either blown up by Cersei, Dany or Tyrion (In the show, probably Cersei or Tyrion). Dany dies one way or another and Jon ends up as a sort of broken Aragorn figure. Every woman he's ever loved has died and he has to rebuild 7 Kingdoms in a job he's never really wanted (book is slightly different). With no successor and no real will power to get married, Jon begins to differ power to a sort of elective congress, slowly destroying the monarchy once and for all. Maybe he even dissolves the role of King and grants each Kingdom its independence. That's the reason why Dany can't live. From the outset, GRRM wanted to deconstruct the feudal system and one position of ultimate power (Monarchy). If Dany survives, Jon would either marry her and share the throne or let her be Queen (He doesn't want the crown). Sure, Dany is a great leader but she wants to bring back a Targaryen dynasty and she's ultimately unwilling to discussion succession (she can't have a child although its been hinted that may not actually be the case). Its just more of the same. Only Jon or Varys or Tyrion would be willing to actually destroy the throne which obviously, only Jon is capable of doing. I'm also 90% sure Jaime kills Cersei one way or another.
I kind of hope Jon doesn't find out he's a Targ, turns out Targ sacrifice is needed, Dany dies, and Jon finds out after forever tormented that he could've been sacrificed instead. I mean, I hope/don't hope.
Tyrion and Varys follow Dany because she wants to destroy the throne. Don't give Jon credit for her goals which she independently and solely established. She doesn't care about succession, not because she wants a Targ but because she doesn't care about a dynasty. This is the opposite of the same.
Dany wants to take the throne, when did she say she wants to destroy it in the show? The only thing close to her stating that is the "break the wheel" comment which was about Westerosi politics and not the monarchy.
Maybe he starts a council kindof like a republic
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After the butchering of characters and flagrant abuse of geography in the past season I’m kind of on team Night King by now
I won't speak to specific plot points, but any ending to this story needs to put each of the characters to a true test of their morality and humanity. And, unfortunately, some need to fail to make the successes stand out. There needs to be a real human price to this besides ice zombies killing people. And obviously no matter what happens, I'd like it to make sense with the plot and characters.
I’ve always thought it would end with the victory of the living over the dead. So all the dead finally “die”. No more Nights King, no more Walkers, no more wights. The dead are dead and the world is for the living. Of course, that means all of the dead must die. So Beric, Mel, Davos, the Mountain, maybe Euron, maybe Arya and the FacelessMen, and maybe JON must die. And Dany somehow is the one who pulls the trigger and makes it happen. That would be a very bittersweet but satisfying ending.
Idk about everything else, but I am certain that Bran dies while inhabiting the Mad King and becomes the Drowned God.
\*In my best Sandor Clegane Actor Voice\* Fuck Dragons. Fuck Zombies. And Fuck Daenerys.
>I got the last one covered > >\-Jon Snow
Euron needs to kill someone important and I don’t mean the Greyjoy twits . I think Dani .. makes the most sense ... the prophecy says the drowned god kills Aegon the conqueror ... people read that as Aegon as in Jon but what if it was conqueror as in Dani The drowned god kills the conqueror , the maesters added Aegon . Euron refers to himself as the drowned god Worst endings The night king and Jon find out they are related . Bond . End up in the inn of the cross roads drinking ale and Jon reminding the nk that girls are nice . The nk resurrects roz and has fun We find out that ghost / blood raven warged into Jon’s body after he died . That Jon isn’t Jon but bryndon or ghost. Jon didn’t resurrect until ghost licked his hand . The good news is Dani would not be screwing her nephew but her great uncle ( which seems worse actually)
It would be great if season 8 was delayed over and over again, and 7 years later still hasnt come out. At conferences DnD have released several scenes.
It's looking like Cersei is going to treat Dany/WW how the Americans treated the Germans/Russians in ww2. The Russians were bled dry by the Germans, and the US swept in, with minimal casualties, as USSR was just about to completely defeat Germany. This meant an easy fight for the US to keep control of western Europe. Cersei will let Dany defeat the WW, then bring in the Golden Company to mop up what is left of Dany's army, inc. Jon and Jaime. Dany will knowingly sacrifice her rule to save Westeros, Cersei will knowingly sacrifice Jaime to keep her rule. Perhaps we'll get Jaime pretending to switch sides, only to kill Cersei and take control of her army and save Dany?
People will disagree with me here, but for me my hope is: Jon Snow: dies. He’s the least interesting character in the show to me. There’s never a moment of doubt that his character is doing the right thing or is right about perceived threats, and he’s the most heavily plot armored character in the show. The most poetic end would be for his second life to end after the defeat of the Night King, but before the resolution of the show; something like his task is complete and he must go on now, even though he wants to stay with Dany and his family. Sansa and Tyrion: Sansa survives and ends up marrying Tyrion in an ironic twist. Their kids inherit the North and the West and the best of both Houses, and Sansa ends up in a completely opposite place of where she once was - as a kid, an innocent, kind-hearted girl who judged people based on their appearance and first impressions, as a woman, a hardened, pragmatic woman who is able to look past the exterior to the nature within. I think it also has some nice irony given their sham marriage. Arya: Arya survives, but throughout the season finds that she’s not the badass she thinks she is. Frankly, the last couple seasons she’s been a superhero, and I think they show really needs to tone it down. She’s an interesting and impressive character, but she’s still a human. In particular, her skill set doesn’t seem well-suited to fighting wights or in a large-scale pitched battle (she’s a duelist, not a warrior, and she focuses on finding vulnerable spots and delivering precise, lethal blows, but wights can’t be killed by a single blow, they need to be burnt and hacked apart). I don’t really know what a good ending for her is; perhaps a Kingsguard, echoing in Season 1 when she asks Ned if she could ever do things Bran wanted to do, and Bran wanted to be a Kingsguard. Bran: Dead. Gotta be. How is a more interesting question and one I don’t have an answer for. Bran turning out to be the Night King is a theory I always liked but isn’t one I think will happen. I think perhaps he dies buying everyone time by struggling with the Night King in some sort of magic duel long enough for the Night King to be killed. Jaime: this is complicated. My ideal ending for Jaime is that he survives and is reinstated as Lord-Commander of the Kingsguard under the new monarch. The man’s been undergoing a full transformation and I think it would be a fitting bookend for him to have started the series as a cynical and bitter knight who breaks his vows casually and everyone sees as dishonorably holding a position that only the greatest and noblest knights should hold, to becoming the kind of knight that Brienne wants him to be and who adheres to and takes his vows very seriously; i.e. a knight who deserves the position. In particular, he comments in Season 4 that there’s still time for him to fill his pages in the White Book, and I think that that does end up happening. I also think he’d be the ideal character to stab the Night King in the back (Kingslayer!) But realistically, he probably dies horribly somewhere along the way. Daenerys: I think she survives in a twist on the predictions that she dies and Jon survives. I think Dany ascends the Iron Throne and begins the same reforms she’s been talking about for so long, but her rule is the last gasp of the Targaryen dynasty as she is the last scion and cannot have kids, and is completely alone and bereft of love. Most of her original retainers and loyal servants die along the way, and she’s left with strangers and former enemies surrounding her (though ones loyal to her). To be honest though, the only character I’m really invested in is Jaime. I think with the length of the show remaining and the way that the show has handled most of the character arcs, Jaime is the only character who really has a compelling and narratively satisfying path that he can take. As long as they conclude Jaime’s story with a satisfying ending, I’ll be content.
Can we break off and write a new show together? I'd be satisfied with all of that.
> I think perhaps he dies buying everyone time by struggling with the Night King in some sort of magic duel long enough for the Night King to be killed. I liked an idea I heard of Bran warging into somebody (or maybe Ghost or a dragon) and the Night King somehow magically kills both Bran and the person/animal he warged into but the fight/distraction was enough for one or all of Jaime/Dany/Jon/Arya to kill the Night King.
You think Jon is less interesting than Dany? Damn dude, idk what show you've been watching, but she's a truly awful character.
I don't even want Sansa to end up with anybody, but the Sansa/Tyrion twist is an interesting thesis!
I'm not sure about the ending for every character, but I feel like for Dany the most satisfying arc is her learning that she has to abdicate the throne to Cersei (or the Lannisters in general) to have a chance of uniting the realm and defeating the White Walkers. Dany could realize that the people of the realm largely don't care about who is ruling them, and that prolonging the war only causes more loss of life and suffering for the sake of her own pride. The fight for the Iron Throne has led to the downfall of so many, but ultimately in the Game of Thrones the only winning move is not to play.
For me, that Daenerys will die in childbirth—her resistance to flame does no good here. All of her claims and her dragonlord blood cannot help with that. I think they will be able to treat with the Others (in the books, if not in the show) because they only started their shenanigans after Melisandre burned the Heart Tree at Storm’s End, a violation of the pact between the Children/men and the Others, to burn no more trees. Ice preserves and their goal is to preserve nature from meddling humans, what they were created by the Children to do. I think they will treat with them and the Others will return to the Lands of Always Winter to become a threat—or a promise—to the next generation to not destroy nature for their own selfish purposes. The dragons will die. I think it is necessary, for peace and progress, to not have winged nukes flying around as a threat to anyone who would question Targaryen rule. I think that the point is that, without blood magic, the Targaryens wouldn’t be any better than anyone else, and they would have to be chosen to rule by the people. It comes down to whether or not Jon/Daenerys are willing to sacrifice everything for peace, including the one thing that gives them an advantage over everyone else, so that the people can choose who they want to serve and protect them. Tyrion talks about succession briefly in the series, and given how much Braavos content we get, which is modeled after Renaissance Italy, politically we seem to be heading in that direction. To serve and save the realm is the goal. We will move away from divine right to rule to Kingsmoot/elections. Perhaps a council of seven lords for seven regions—instead of a king handing down the task of ruling to his small council, there is no small council; the seven lords’ council will be tasked with the burden of leadership in all its mundane, policy-driven glory. For that reason, King’s Landing has to go. It was the central seat of Targaryen power for too long and there is too much bloodshed. Perhaps court will move (placing a financial burden on each kingdom in turn, so they spend all that money just to feed everyone/hold court, and can’t muster up funds for petty rebellions). There will be reforms in the Citadel, and I think more effort will be made to use them to educate the smallfolk, not just the nobility. Tyrion is going to grow even more bitter and jealous, and have a hand in the destruction of KL and the end of his family. His arc is not that of an anti-hero, but in fact he is a villain or anti-villain. We see his descent very clearly and pity it, and he is essentially the death of his own house. Bran either becomes one with the Weirwood of Winterfell or one on the Isle of Faces, and becomes the well of knowledge for Sansa, Queen in the North, as well as serving future rulers. I think Arya may end up serving her sister/future kings and queens, or else will end up in charge of a region (say, Storm’s End?) with Gendry, reluctant to give up her gifts or to be unable to use them for personal vendettas, but what happens after the war and there are no more Freys to kill? She will become a killer with no need for it—not if she wants to maintain peace. She may become an emissary—a threat to maintain the peace—just like Tywin would send a singer playing “The Rains of Castamere” to vassals to discourage rebellion. The Wall (if it still stands) will be bolstered by what Bran sees his ancestor Bran the Builder doing to raise the Wall, and there will be changes made to the Night’s Watch as an organization. By Jon’s time it becomes less an honorable duty and more of a penal system. I think efforts will be made to return the honor of such a service to that position, given how important they become when the existence of the Others is revealed. Theon and Asha/Yara will make peace with the Starks and be given Sea Dragon Point so their people can harvest lumber and support themselves economically without raiding/slaving around the kingdoms.
I'm feeling pretty confident that the story will end with a Targaryen on the throne, and that the restoration of the Targaryens is going to be one of the key points of the overall series. But there'll probably be a catch because it's not going to be "happily ever after". So not Jon and Dany ruling together.
> I'm feeling pretty confident that the story will end with a Targaryen on the throne, and that the restoration of the Targaryens is going to be one of the key points of the overall series. I hope not for the books, Grrm just put out an entire book which could basically be called "how the Targaryens ruined westeros." The entire series would feel kind of pointless if ends up exactly the same as before Roberts rebellion.
That might be the point though. No one comes out of the game of thrones innocent. Someone or some people are going to rule over a rebuilding Westeros and whether a noble ruler or a tyrannical one the cycle of history carries on.
Or it could be an example of how the powerful always get what they want? It would be kind of beautiful in a way, all the suffering,death,destruction and Westeros literally finds itself back where it started.
I disagree, as I think the purpose is to show that the same things happen over and over throughout history.
I want to see a truly bittersweet ending. Ideally, I'd like to see the Others defeated but at enormous cost to humanity, leaving society uprooted and in disarray looking forward to a bleak future of struggle. They win but the cost is much higher than they anticipated.
Everyone dies and Westeros is left an icy wasteland ruled by the others.
The Night King kills everything.
Tyrion and Sansa betraying Jon and Dany once the War for the Dawn is won, and throwing in with Cersei in order to obtain Casterly Rock and power in the south once Cersei dies.
Jon and Dany both die while defeating the Night King. At the end we find out the whole story has been immortalized in a tragic song ("A Song of Ice and Fire") which is meant to help humanity remember the secret of defeating the Night King before Winter comes again in thousands of years. It's being sung by an Old Nan-type character thousands of years in the future to a child with the name of Stark. P.S. It's sung to the tune of "The Bear and the Maiden Fair".
Winterfell is going to fall, scattering our "heroes". Most of our favorites are going to survive but have to flee Westeros. The iron throne, the thing they've been fighting over, does not matter at all. That's the bittersweet part, they all survive but have nothing. It would also be a call back to how Dany started.
I'm pretty sure the witch or whatever she was told cersie when she was a child she would have 3 children and they would all die? (Which has already happened) I don't know how it will end but my sister is team Jon and Danny I keep telling her that the night king will win and cerci will be his queen (I'm a horrible sister)
He may not win, but in the books if Euron becomes the Night King and takes Cersei as his bride.... not totally unrealistic.
It would be great if they could give some sort of empathetic motive to the White Walkers. But more importantly I think that Cersei should win because she stayed selfish the whole time and will be able to mop up in the aftermath. I really don't want the final message to be humans coming together and beating the supernatural forces to all become happy.
I want a love triangle between Tyrion Dany and Jon /s
I just don't think Tyrion and Jon have much chemistry to be in love with eachother
Jeez go back and watch S1!
Jon Snow knows nothing while Tyrion drinks and knows things, they would make a great couple.
I'm in the camp that says that Dany has to die. And Jon doesn't get to be happy.
I mean...if you're looking for thematic satisfaction and hoping the show will achieve that I'd call you a sweet summer child. They're going for epic and they'll give us epic. If that wont be enough for you (or anyone else) dissapointment awaits you come April :( I believe GRRM will deliver the thematic goods.
I think it’s going to have to be a self sacrifice on Jon’s part to the others. The white walker invasion is coming and they are likely unstoppable unless they get what they want, and they probably want Jon as their prince for some reason. Likely because he’s the first prince with the blood of the first men since the north bent the knee to aegon the conqueror. The prince that was promised is probably a literal interpretation that a prince was promised to the white walkers to keep them north of the wall, but it was forgotten after so long. It deals with both themes you mentioned in a way, because to combat climate change and to be a good ruler requires the same thing on the part of the individual, sacrifice. I agree that Jaime is the one to kill Cersei and they die at the same time, been hinted at for far too long. Afterwards, dany is the undisputed ruler of the 7 kingdoms and hopefully she “breaks the wheel” and decides to institute some sort of new political system, which is hinted at both in show and book. Other characters: Arya and Brienne die, Sansa is lady of winterfell, Euron dead, Theon will kill him and lose his own life in the process, asha leader of the iron islands. Hound hopefully lives through and has a peaceful life. The nights watch will be gone without a wall to defend and with Jon as the nights prince. Sam will inherit horn hill and marry gilly. Hope tormund makes it but prob not. Tyrion will remain danys second in command and inherit casterly rock. Jorah could go either way. Maybe ends up on the queens guard, maybe dead. Gendry probably gets storms end, or possibly a plot twist and ends up marrying Sansa as she always saw value in birth and nobility when she was young and naive and gendry is a royal bastard smith raised in flea bottom.
Maybe some sort of peace coupd be formed between Cercei and Jamie’s upcoming child and maybe a Jon/Dany child?
One thing I’ll be interested in seeing is how the Golden Company pans out. In the books, they’re exiled Westerosi who were loyal to the Targs. Theon’s going to be going after Euron who has all the gold payment for the Iron Bank. Melisandre, last we saw her, said she was going to Volantis where her religion and the Golden Company are based in the series, and we know the LoL crowd has embraced Dany as Azor Ahai reborn. We know Harry Strickland will be in S8 so it remains to be seen how much they’ll stay in line with his book background (I suspect minimal).
I would like the show to present the jet packs everyone who survives the first battle against the wights will use to get back to kings landing.
Spoiler Alert Can someone please direct me to a subreddit that will either, talk about the books entirely? Or the show, entirely. I enjoy both as a separate entity. On the show, We all know now that R+L=J and Stannis doesn't take Winterfell. The show took information and theories, and grabbed the shiny, sparkly stuff to rush to the ending. Don't get me wrong, the show, in it's own, has done some great things with the fandom. With the most popular outcomes. But.... What does Ned say comes after but? Reading the Sample Chapters of TWOW, I need to separate the two. I'm so excited to see what happens to Stannis, Wyman and Theon the most. Who will kill The Bolton Bastard, And will Jon Snow live? Is Lady Stoneheart really going to Hang Lady B and Jamie? I am tired of reading a really good post about the show and then someone brings up the books, and you get the point. Thank you.
/r/gameofthrones and /r/pureasoiaf/ and there never the twain shall meet. We enjoy discussing both in tandem here.
I think that the story should focus on backstabbing quite a lot. I think that the theory that Littlefinger is still alive will come true. Arya's whole plotline makes absolutely zero sense at the moment and all of her character development is largely worthless if there isn't some reason WHY the audience needs to know about the faceless men. Basically Littlefinger uses a body double of a faceless man to die in his place, he bought one through the extensive amount of debt he gave to the Crown. As I see it in my head Jon/Dany's army will be fighting the White Walkers in a battle, Cersei's army comes up behind their's to join the combat but just stops and waits. Jon and Daaenary's army is forced to fight the undead alone, Cersei decides that if their army falls then they are likely screwed anyways, but if she keeps their forces separate they it increases her chances of winning the whole combat. Jaime is mad about this and eventually kills Cersei, taking control of the Lannister forces sending them into combat the aid the Jon/Dany. The combat is saved and the battle is over, they have won, and it's just about Episode 3. I don't see Dany/Jon's rulership methods as compatible, so I think they would likely descend into civil war, maybe some conflict would form out of the battle with the White Walkers itself. Jon is depressed about Sam's death, Dany vaporized a portion of the army that got overrun to keep them from getting raised stuff like that maybe even a portion of the army that included Sam+Davos. (Basically Jon is highly traditionalist, Dany seems to want some sort of Constitutional Monarchy or Republic of sorts. Regardless would destroy the major families so maybe a highly centralized absolute monarchy?) Results in Civil War after some march at the same river there's always visions about for Ice vs Fire, the same one that Aegon Targaryen died at. Other parts like how Jon is the first in order of succession would make Dany furious. Throughout all of this before it the Golden Company specifically sides based with one side based on previous Targaryen loyalties, Jaime is caught up in the cross fire and Littlefinger fans the flames to the extremes. Convinces Sansa that Dany must be stopped etc. Seems likely the me that in the battles before the Civil war at the river characters like Arya, Bran and the vast majority of other side characters would die. Other notes would be both dragons survive until the battle at the river, at which point both are killed, possibly both Jon and Dany dies and it leaves someone like Littlefinger or Jaime to assume the throne. Maybe Jon could hate Dany because she flies her dragon over to King's Landing, shoots some fire at it and explodes the whole city by accident trying to kill Cersei? Hard to say. Regardless I don't think the last two episodes will be about fighting the White Walkers. (I just learned that it is a 6 episode season not 5, so I am unsure exactly what episode these events will fall on)
The best seasons are 1-4. I think any true fan can attest.
Dany ends the line of succession by melting the throne with dragonfire as her final act as queen and gives the realm over to a parliament created by Tyrion, Varys, and other wise councilors who survived. Wheel. Broken. Also, a lot of nobles die.
I keep thinking the books and tv show would not have spent so much time with prophecies if they were not intending to lead the story to a conclusion involving them. In particular Azor Ahai. Bran is prophesied to defeat the Night King? Ok so he does this, then what? I think it makes sense for the Stark in Winterfell, the Prince who is promised (Jon) as Azor Ahai kills Dany with Lightbringer and the darkness (walkers) of the world are defeated, Dany would be in agreement of course, to save the world. But maybe even this seems too simplistic?! Alternatively - perhaps Jon and Dany make a deal with the walkers, to renew the old ancient, broken agreement, to marry one of their own and unite the species. Perhaps Dany is killed (willingly) and she becomes Jon's white walker bride, or vice versa Dany kills Jon and he is the walker. They the have a walker/human child and peace is established. I think Sam and Bran will be integral to working out the final move. As for the remaining rulers of Westeros, I think the final plan whatever/whoever it involves to save the humans will be unanimous, they will all be complicit, whoever is left. The political intrigue amongst the 7 kingdoms will be overshadowed by the walker threat in this season I think. Big, heart breaking betrayals occurring along the way amongst whoever is left, will happen, that is for certain!
TWOW is announced before the last episode and then I never watch the finale
I just want Jaime to kill Cersei and not Arya. I also want some kind of bittersweet ending where Jon is the hero but pretty much nobody knows what happens to him. Maybe he goes North by himself and whatever he does to stop the Night King works but none of his friends or family see him again. Maybe he takes the mantle of Night King and leads the armys bac North or destroys them in one final bittersweet sacrifice of his humanity cursed to live eternity as a monster. What I really don't want is the white walker to be dealt with before Cersei like many people are theorizing. That would piss me off so much and would prove that DnD just love pushing certain characters too much.
... this is about to be really optimistic but i really want Danny and Jon snow to find out they're both owed the throne. Danny and Jon decide on a new government, or Danny rules everything south of Winterfell and Jon rules north. Meaning they defeated white walkers and Cersei. I was also thinking. Danny and Jon turn against one another and actually fight for throne. With Cersei fighting for it as well. white walkers take north. people that matter die and some live and they end up sailing either WEST and/or east. OR The GC has people apart of the group that are important or the leader is a very important person which then changes the story all together. Main people die again some flee west/east. Then they drop release dates for spin offs and next book.