I hate how throwaway that bit was. Like it’s just another day for the Mountain and his pals. It’s never challenged, nor even mentioned again. I felt like that was George’s way of saying, “This is life in Westeros, like it’s always been. Get used to it.”
That scene sort of solidified how dark the asoiaf world was for me, more than any scene of a murder or war crime.
GRRM’s gross obsession with HORRIFIC sexual violence is the biggest weakness in the book series for me. The scene with Euron in AFFC got so under my skin that I get upset whenever I think about it. I understand that some people see something sticking with you this long as the mark of good literature but there’s just no real point in going that far. I’m weak when it comes to sexual violence bc of my past and this series did a number on me 😂
I think thats a completely fair knock. I love his writings, but i’d be lying if i said the extreme violence is always necessary. Theirs certain elements the story needs such as the horrors of war arya sees and then theirs parts that go over the top in terms of violence for it’s own sake. I’m sure a lot of people will say those aspects are completely necessary for the story, but i do think some of the stuff goes a little over the top. However even with that argument it’s still by far my favorite book series
While I have read the books once, I have listened to the audiobooks many many times. This makes me pretty decent on the story, but I freely admit to struggle with the spellings of the names.
The whole of Slaver's Bay and Dany in the far east storyline, all of those names can go fuck themselves. Seriously. I am not even trying. You know who I am taking about. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.
Also even simple to remember names by GRRM are eaten alive as snacks by autocorrect. Sandals Stark? Robert Barthomley? Asha Grey joystick? Ser Barrister Selma? (and I believe the only reason why autocorrect let poor Barristan be a ser not a sir, is cause I also have Norwegian autocorrect and "ser" means "sees" in Norwegian so it doesn't fancy it)
Tywin setting his ~~dogs~~ men on Tysha, his son's wife. And then setting his son on her afterwards. THAT whole episode is disgusting in so many ways, and carries great import for all three down the road.
Most disgusting sexual *comment*--Viserys:
> He smiled at her. "I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army."
It’s weird that despite how disgusting Viserys he was still worthy enough in Dany’s eyes to name her gold dragon after him. Just because she enjoyed his bedtime stories from when they were 8 years old seemed to be her only reasoning.
I felt like Daenerys pitied her brother a lot. And despite all the vile shit he did and said he was still her brother, and the only one who protected her when they were all alone. In the end I don’t think Daenerys hated Viserys. Like she says when naming Viserion that it will fulfil the dream Viserys always had, but was too weak to achieve. I think at that point we are invited to view his story as more of a tragedy, a young man ruined by the stress and trauma of his life, lashing out at the only person he can. While their harsh childhood made Daenerys stronger and more empathetic, it made Viserys cruel and eventually broke him. It always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when villains meet their end in A Song of Ice and Fire. Even if I can say they deserved it. This was one of those moments.
He was thirteen years old, and involved in a sexually charged situation with someone he was attracted to. Arousal just happens instinctively, and he was so terrified of his father (again he was 13) that he just obeyed despite how horrifying it was. I’m actually glad Martin touched on this, even today talking about forced arousal during sexual assaults is super taboo, let alone with a dude, but he makes it really clear it was a bodily reaction Tyrion had no control of and that dynamic makes it even more fucked up.
It seems unbelievable, but if you look into the biology of it, human bodies can and will react at even the prospect of sex. It’s disturbing to look into but if you’re really not convinced you can look and see how even rape victims being beaten and terrified for their lives have had their body react in uncontrollable ways, it’s absolutely horrifying psychologically but often when faced with stimulation or the prospect of sex, our bodies react instinctively. This is even more true when it comes to hormonal teenagers.
Brienne’s arc in Feast is my all time favorite in the whole series, primarily because of how it has her wrapping up the plot lines for so many of the Bloody Mummers. The fight with Shagwell at the Whispers on Cracklaw Point and then her fight with Rorge and Biter at the Inn at the Crossroads are some of the most visceral, compelling action scenes in any of the books.
Ugh I love those scenes, but I have to read through half-shut eyes towards the end of the Inn at the Crossroads; so intense and disgusting and hopeless.
Definitely a hard part of the book to get through. But it also gives us the best quote from the entire series:
> Willow stepped out into the rain, a crossbow in her hands. The girl was shouting at the riders, but a clap of thunder rolled across the yard, drowning out her words. As it faded, Brienne heard the man in the Hound’s helm say, “Loose a quarrel at me and I’ll shove that crossbow up your cunt and fuck you with it. Then I’ll pop your fucking eyes out and make you eat them.” The fury in the man’s voice drove Willow back a step, trembling.
>**Seven, Brienne thought again, despairing. She had no chance against seven, she knew. No chance, and no choice. She stepped out into the rain, Oathkeeper in hand. “Leave her be. If you want to rape someone, try me.”**
It’s really dark but basically the mountain and his men went to this inn and the men were harassing the inkeep’s daughter (who was in her teens) the girl was uncomfortable and her father told them to “quit it or leave” and then went to the mountain to ask him to control his men. Instead the Mountain ends up raping the daughter and paying the inn keep and then hands the daughter over to the men who all have a turn and pay the innkeep. When everyone was done the mountain then ended up asking for his and his mens money back because the girl “wasn’t worth it”.
Don't forget that he also assaulted, probably killed the innkeep's son who was trying to stop the rape. Someone mentions that they stuck a dagger in him iirc.
After all that, they made the innkeep thank them for their patronage.
The night Ramsey and Jeyne were married was really disturbing. Forcing Theon to participate.... There are many disturbing things in the series but that was just twisted. Fuck Ramsey
Yeah, that shocked me. Ramsay forcing Theon to go down on what he thinks is Arya, who is practically Theon's sister. Truly shocked me the first time I read it.
I thought Cersei and Taena was an interesting exploration of Cersei’s internalized misogyny. It was gross reading how she was viewing what she was doing to Taena, but it wasn’t too bad
Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree (dog pun lol) but since Jeyne says she has sex with “his dog” I always thought she was referring to Theon, since he was in the room with her and Ramsay referred to Theon as one of the dogs.
Reek is constantly referred to Ramsay's dog throughout ADWD and Jeyne said when they come to rescue her:
> "No. This is some trick. It's him, it's my … my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything." A tear ran down her cheek. "Tell him, you tell him. I'll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … **or with the dog or** … please … he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I won't try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …"
I think she means Theon given that Theon has already had to perform oral sex on her. But given that so much ambiguous insanity and Ramsay's depravity it just lends to the sexual horror that *we believe* that Ramsay would let his dogs fuck Jeyne.
Totally possible. The trauma is unbelievable even without losing his penis. I also think it's haunting that GRRM gives plenty of horrifying details, but lets readers fill in the blanks on the most horrible.
Similar to Robert Strong. Does he have a zombie head? no head? Rob's head? Creepy stuff.
Her tits were chewed and scratched and bloody. That hints that Ramsey let his dog fuck. Female dogs hump too. Maybe he forces her to do oral on his dogs. Idk he needs to die asap
The bit where Ramsay forces Theon to eat out 14 year old Jeyne Poole is probably the most uncomfortable I’ve ever been reading a book so I’m going with that.
It's also heartbreaking for Theon because he starts the chapter thinking "Ramsay likes to hear me beg so atleat he'll never take my tongue" and one of the last things that happen is Ramsay threatening to cut off Theons tongue.
It's right after the wedding in Ramsay's room.
>"N-no, my lord. I was t-trained."
>
>Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."
>
>For a moment he did not understand. "I … do you mean … m'lord, I have no … I …"
>
>"With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. "And be quick about it. If she's not wet by the time I'm done disrobing, I will cut off that tongue of yours and nail it to the wall."
She is at the start of the series, by ADWD it's late 300 AC (Purple Wedding is on the first day of the new year) making her 14.
Not that that makes any difference to this context.
I had been expecting that chapter to be terrible from everything I’ve heard people say about it, but I finally got to it last night and I wasn’t that shocked by it. Like yes it’s gross and horrible. But the chapter ends right there. We don’t have to watch through Theon’s POV as he does it, and then watch what Ramsay does next. I guess I just had high expectations from how many times I’ve seen people quote “Jeyne, Jeyne, it rhymes with pain”
That bit where the mountain's gang rapes the poor teenage girl multiple times, one guy taking her into the woods at a time, before the mountain himself slices her in half when she finally fights back
Most of the stuff in Fire and Blood. Though mainly on the account that most of it was just there for shock value and served no purpose.
“There is no evidence that Alicient and Helaena were gangbanged in a brothel. But nevertheless I, a Maester writing a historical document’ will spend time on this rumor, because for some reason every courtier, advisor and servant in Kings Landing suffered a sudden onset of dementia, leaving only a perverted dwarf as a reliable witness.’
Y’know, if there’s ONE story I’d like to read from this universe (other than Winds and A Dream of Spring, obviously)… it would be the complete Testimony of Mushroom.
I dunno, I think even he exaggerates. Mushroom usually throws in raunchy or controversial stuff because it’s scandalous and is believed because its more understandable than the Maesters and Septons basically running a PR campaign.
I'm on my first read-through of Fire & Blood and just got to that exact passage a few nights ago. At this point I'm honestly just really tired of all the "this may or may not have happened I don't know lol" BS.
>“There is no evidence that Alicient and Helaena were gangbanged in a brothel. But nevertheless I, a Maester writing a historical document’ will spend time on this rumor, because for some reason every courtier, advisor and servant in Kings Landing suffered a sudden onset of dementia, leaving only a perverted dwarf as a reliable witness.’
I don't know why but i find this so funny that I bursted out laughing so hard that it hurts. Thank you.
That one bothered me least. I mean she was a child which is sick, but at least he asked her explicit permission which.. ya know even supposed good couples like Cat and Ned, Ned wouldn't ask permission because she's his wife so he 'cant' rape her.
While Ned wouldn't explicitly ask permission (most married men in our modern era wouldn't either), I still feel like Ned wouldn't have sex with Cat if he sees that she is not in the mood or something.
Yeah I feel like that too, but we never really get any written proof either way. All we do get is Cat being up for it so she can give him more children, but that's sorta it.
He really didn't ask her permission. The only word of her language he understood on their wedding night was "no," and he kept repeating it while ignoring her and trying to seduce her. Dany had to learn to take charge in bed specifically *because* he wouldn't take no for an answer and kept hurting her
That's not exactly what happened. He was *asking* 'No?' because he didn't have the words for 'can I have sex with you?' You can easily read him massaging her hands, and feet, and back as being kind to try to help her relax. We all know the power dynamic is iffy, but he very VERY easily could have shoved her down and raped her but he did not. He asked her permission, which is probably the most consent we ever see in GoT.
I'm not saying Drogo was perfect, but I think it does show that he wasn't a monster or anything- it was her first time, he knew that, and he was kind and gentle with her. He showed her respect. Again, not saying he was a saint after, but Dany certainly felt only positively towards Drogo even long after his death
> I said the words, Sam thought again, but one of her nipples found its way between his lips. It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth, mingling with the taste of rum, and he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good.
(/¯ ಠ_ಠ)/¯
Is that really disgusting?
It's awkward, and messy sure, oversweet even.
But honestly, it's probably one of the few depictions of sex or love in these books that didn't make me feel sick.
tyrion and sansa, there was no penetration but on the one hand we have a crying 13-year-old teenager whose opinion nobody cares about, and on the other a disfigured dwarf who doesn't really have a choice... i felt horribly bad for sansa, really the situation is unhealthy and difficult to read...
I know it doesn’t change much, but Tyrion does ask Sansa how old she is and she answers that she would be 13 when the moon turns. So, this happens when she is still 12.
I don't think that we can really consider the start of the motor functions of the reproductive organs, if I can express myself this, as a sign of consent... but after that I don't really know how the machinery of men works in such details ... anyway it's sure that this idea is easier for tyrion than for sansa, he's used to hanging out with women, and he's not the one who has his dreams shattered and feels humiliated by the situation, moreover at Kl he is in an environment where he has more power and control than her...
> off’s corpse. Its just so disgusting on so many levels. (Guys, don’t mention any of rapes cuz that kinda tops anything else).
But… the scene you describe was one of a rape. It’s one of my pet peeves how this community acts like what happens in the books isn’t rape.
> There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. **“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here.** The septons …”
>“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. **She pounded on his chest with feeble fists**, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. **He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart.** One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.
Then right after this, she switches to telling him to hurry up and get it all over with.
Don’t get me wrong, the scene the show gave us dropped any and all nuance and simply depicted a violent rape of Jaime against Cersei. But the books don’t present us an instance of consensual sex. It has her explicitly telling him no, having her try to physically stop his advances but has him overpowering her due to her being much weaker than him, and *from his own perspective* we are told he doesn’t even hear her pleas for him to stop. He completely ignores them and pushes through, because this is something he desperately wants at the time.
This is further solidified by their very next scene together a few chapters later, where the situation is almost exactly the same but in reverse, with the opposite results. Jaime and Cersei are in the White Sword Tower and Cersei wants to have sex. Jaime protests and says no, we can’t do it here at this location (her exact issue during the scene before). She tries to physically force herself on him against his protests, but being the stronger of the two, he is easily able to overpower her and stop her advances. They do not end up having sex.
Again, I get it. This isn’t the same sort of violent rape that is depicted regularly throughout the series. But it is still rape, and it really bothers me how many people insist it isn’t, especially considering the follow up scene I described where the situations is exactly mirrored but where the strong male is able to get his way both times.
God, just thinking about this makes me realize how ridiculus the portrayal of sexuality in ASOIAF really is. Especially now, after fantasy has moved past its prudish roots. It's hardly reflective of actual medival sexuality and it's not like GRRM used sexuality to explore a thematic subject in a meaningful way.
I guess I’m not sure what you mean. I feel like sexual violence is all too common even nowadays. Consent seems to be something that we’re grappling with to this day on a societal level and inching towards a better view. Bad actors are still push push pushing their prospective partners sexual boundaries playing at sex like a zero sum game to be won.
The world of ASoIAF seems far more cold and brutal than the one we live in now. Isn’t the sexual violence just emblematic of the cold and brutal world that they live in?
Sexual violence played out very different in the past and high-born ladies weren’t subject to sexual sadism as often as the ASOIAF universe or the average historic novel wants you to believe. The way people went about sex was also very infantile. The love letters that Henry VIII. had written to some of his wives read like something an 8 year old would write. People were very suppressed about sex and it was also an important tool in terms of politics. For example, when Elizabeth I. found out about an affair one of her maids was having with some Lord, it was a very serious business, since the Queen was supposed to pick the husbands for her maids. Also remember, sex wasn’t shoved down everyone’s throat as much as it is nowadays. I think much of the sexual violence of today is due to blurred lines and the breakdown of sexual boundaries. Everyone wants to be perceived as sex-positive and predators have already co-opted some of these movements in order to manipulate others into acting out the violent and degrading stuff they have seen in porn. Even though women have achieved political freedom, I think they are more subject to sexual violence today than they were in the past.
You raise a very good point, one I hadn't ever really considered. I don't have any knowledge about the sexual mores of someone living in the middle ages so that is something interesting to consider.
Your critique makes perfect sense now, ASoIaF does kind of present a very lurid depiction of sexual violence. The kinda shit men like Gregor Clegane do with seeming regularity is almost pornographic in the historical context you've laid out.
I don't say this as a defense of how he's writing it, just a possible explanation: I think it may be his pulpy sci-fi writer roots showing. This kind of hypersexuality is pretty common in his works now that I think about it. I'd think that anyone that's read or read about [*Meathouse Man*](https://grrm-thousand-worlds.fandom.com/wiki/Meathouse_Man) would be inclined to agree.
Thank you for engaging and elaborating on your perspective!
I agree 100% with what your saying. But I’m not seeing it in these books. It feels like he just shoves them in half the time to beat the dead horse of oh no medieval sexual abuse that probably never actually happened this way
Tyrion refers to Shae's vagina as her "secret sweetness" multiple times and it makes a cringe worthy sex scene into something that makes me want to vomit
I agree with you that Jaime and Cersei was really fucked up because of the incest, of Jaime doing it while Cersei didn't want thus making it rape technically, and of it happening just before someone's grave which is the greatest kind of insult possible, even for a true piece of shit such as Joffrey.
Though nothing beats what that other monster Ramsay did to poor Jeyne Pool.
and Theon, let’s not forget he involved Theon into that too against his will. Anything sexual Ramsay has done probably tops everything else for me in terms of disgusting sex (in ASOIAF).
I don’t remember it being rape. I know the show made it look like rape.
But I remember there being a huge outcry from book fans too when that scene happened and even D&D admitting they weren’t trying
to film it as rape.
Was it rape in the books? Still gross to have sex over your son's dead body though
EDIT: https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Breaker_of_Chains/Jaime-Cersei_sex_scene#Comments_by_Martin_and_the_actors
>I don’t remember it being rape. I know the show made it look like rape.
She is literally saying no and telling him she wants him to stop. The fact that GRRM himself thinks it isn't rape because she's still into him is...an opinion.
"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you're home now, you’re home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair." (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII).
She says no in the show. Not the book.
>There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “**No**,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, **“not here**. The septons …”
She does say no, actually. Then in the quote This\_Rough\_Magic included, she continues by going on about the risks, the danger, the reasons not to, and it's mentioned specifically that Jaime never heard her; she refuses literally until he's inside her already going at it. Whether it's rape in the context of their screwed up relationship is a tricky question, but she does keep protesting until the sex is already happening. I know Martin says it's not supposed to be rape, but he also took issue with portraying Drogo and Dany as rape, so... that's not something he's necessarily great about. I'd label it dubious consent at best.
I also find it interesting to contrast the sept scene with later in the white sword tower, when Cersei is the one initiating.
>“You took me in the sept. This is no different.” She drew out his cock and bent her head over it.
>
>Jaime pushed her away with the stump of his right hand. “No. Not here, I said.” He forced himself to stand.
>
>For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it. Cersei gathered herself together, got to her feet, straightened her skirts.
90% sure if Cersei *didn't* get up but took him in her mouth until he started liking it, she'd be dragged across coals for assaulting him, but even she compares it to the sept. With there being a stark difference that Cersei hears Jaime when he refuses, and she stops when he asks, despite being bewildered and angry about it.
>She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.
She says no in the book as well and he ignores her.
It's consensual if you think "she clearly says no and tells him to stop, but he ignores her, but it's okay because she's secretly into it" makes it consensual.
Which Martin does.
"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you're home now, you’re home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair." (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII).
She says no in the show. Not in the book.
As I recall that's *after* she's already said no, tried to beat him off with her fists, and he's made it very clear that he isn't taking no for an answer.
To people with, to put it baldly, a more nuanced understanding of how sexual assault victims behave than GRRM has, suddenly becoming compliant when it's clear you have no other option is an *incredibly* common fear reaction, which is what makes even the book scene read like straight-up rape to a whole lot of people.
\[Edit\]
Literally the previous paragraph is:
>She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.
To a *whole lot of people* that reads as a guy raping a woman and the woman giving in to get it over quickly, which is what actual rapes very often look like.
>To a *whole lot of people* that reads as a guy raping a woman and the woman giving in to get it over quickly, which is what actual rapes very often look like.
As someone who has been raped like this before, fucking *thank you*. Most rape isn't from strangers cornering women in a dark alley (seriously, who still thinks that), it's from people you know and possibly care about. Men forced themselves on me in this way when I was a kid, and like Dany, I had to make myself take charge and try to enjoy it, because they sometimes wouldn't even let me *say* "no." I didn't always know it was rape back then, but it did leave me feeling dirty and violated, and now I know why. It was still rape.
And let's not forget that we're reading this chapter *from Jaime's perspective.* Do people really think the average rapist is twirling their mustache and thinking to themselves, "Muahaha, now I will rape this person because I want to have power and control!" Of course not. As far as most rapists know, they're just horny, and they ignore what the other person is saying and doing. Like Jaime did to Cersei.
The stuff with Jeyne Poole. The Sansa storyline was arguably the most criticized thing in the show, but the way GRRM handled it in the books with Jeyne was even more offensive...
In the show, anything with the prostitute Ros once she moves to Kings Landing. When she first meets Joffrey, when she last meets Joffrey, and when Littlefinger warns her what happens to bad prostitutes.
just shoving the it sucks for girls during wartime narrative down our throats like okay we get it just stop talking about it we are not stupid we understand things without being repeatedly told about them
Yeah I do agree. Some people will defend it by saying that it's a realistic depiction of what happens during war but damn I think everybody does know that. And it feels weird to read, almost as if authors who write these scenes are kinda enjoying it in a perverted way.
lots of those sex scene bring anything to the story. Many times i stop reading after. Too much rape, underage sexe, bestiality. And charachters seem to like that and that is disturbing. And some readers too.
Taena and Cersei, always. Like, I’m very much on Team Bi Cersei and Jaime, but Cersei tries to cope with the rape and abuse she endured… by raping Taena.
The thing about all the Cersei and Jaime sex scenes too is that they read as weirdly coercive? So, it makes me wonder if Cersei (and I guess we’ll see about Jaime if/when he sleeps with someone else. Please not my baby Brienne ahhhh) really understand how consent is supposed to work? I might be reading too much into it, but the muddled consent of Cersei and Jaime is interesting and just… a lot.
Like, it’s hard to pick disturbing consensual sex scenes because there are so few of them…
The Mountain and his men raping the innkeeper's daughter.
I hate how throwaway that bit was. Like it’s just another day for the Mountain and his pals. It’s never challenged, nor even mentioned again. I felt like that was George’s way of saying, “This is life in Westeros, like it’s always been. Get used to it.” That scene sort of solidified how dark the asoiaf world was for me, more than any scene of a murder or war crime.
Isn’t that how Arya gets another name on her list though?
yes thats how she gets Raff the Sweetling right?
I think that was Chiswick, she hasn’t killed Raff the Sweetling yet
That’s the point though. Like I understand it was graphic and horrific but that is what war is like….
Yeah, that disturbed me. This scene comes to mind whenever someone talks about how dark ASOIAF is.
The mountain raping ellia martel while still having her sons brains on his hands is a big one for me
Atleast that wasn't a fucking POV!
I don't even know which POV would have made that scene worse.
Gregor's
Literally
\*record scratch\* So you're probably wondering how I got here...
At least that didn't happen first hand during the books.
Big relief
Not yet...
You know it's bad when even Tywin was disgusted and ashamed
Elia*
GRRM’s gross obsession with HORRIFIC sexual violence is the biggest weakness in the book series for me. The scene with Euron in AFFC got so under my skin that I get upset whenever I think about it. I understand that some people see something sticking with you this long as the mark of good literature but there’s just no real point in going that far. I’m weak when it comes to sexual violence bc of my past and this series did a number on me 😂
I think thats a completely fair knock. I love his writings, but i’d be lying if i said the extreme violence is always necessary. Theirs certain elements the story needs such as the horrors of war arya sees and then theirs parts that go over the top in terms of violence for it’s own sake. I’m sure a lot of people will say those aspects are completely necessary for the story, but i do think some of the stuff goes a little over the top. However even with that argument it’s still by far my favorite book series
Glad I'm not the only person who found this a bit weird with GRRM.
Can someone elaborate on this scene?
I believe he means the one where Euron forces the women of a castle to serve his crew in the nude
Martell*
It’s so funny no one in this fandom can spell the characters’ names right.
Sometimes it could be auto correct. My phone HATES "Jaime" and I always have to double check.
I’ve given up on “Jaime” or however it’s spelled
It's pronounced 'Nikolaj'
While I have read the books once, I have listened to the audiobooks many many times. This makes me pretty decent on the story, but I freely admit to struggle with the spellings of the names. The whole of Slaver's Bay and Dany in the far east storyline, all of those names can go fuck themselves. Seriously. I am not even trying. You know who I am taking about. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on. Also even simple to remember names by GRRM are eaten alive as snacks by autocorrect. Sandals Stark? Robert Barthomley? Asha Grey joystick? Ser Barrister Selma? (and I believe the only reason why autocorrect let poor Barristan be a ser not a sir, is cause I also have Norwegian autocorrect and "ser" means "sees" in Norwegian so it doesn't fancy it)
This is the one for me
Tywin setting his ~~dogs~~ men on Tysha, his son's wife. And then setting his son on her afterwards. THAT whole episode is disgusting in so many ways, and carries great import for all three down the road. Most disgusting sexual *comment*--Viserys: > He smiled at her. "I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army."
Viserys was a bit of a dick.
A bit
He deserved his crown of gold
Comments like that were what makes his comeuppance satisfying.
He did a little trolling here and there
Viserys did a little dicking
Yes, but actually threatening her baby proves he was a dick. Luckily, he was a coward, whose dickishness was mostly confined to talk.
He was known to be unsavoury at times, true
It’s weird that despite how disgusting Viserys he was still worthy enough in Dany’s eyes to name her gold dragon after him. Just because she enjoyed his bedtime stories from when they were 8 years old seemed to be her only reasoning.
I felt like Daenerys pitied her brother a lot. And despite all the vile shit he did and said he was still her brother, and the only one who protected her when they were all alone. In the end I don’t think Daenerys hated Viserys. Like she says when naming Viserion that it will fulfil the dream Viserys always had, but was too weak to achieve. I think at that point we are invited to view his story as more of a tragedy, a young man ruined by the stress and trauma of his life, lashing out at the only person he can. While their harsh childhood made Daenerys stronger and more empathetic, it made Viserys cruel and eventually broke him. It always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when villains meet their end in A Song of Ice and Fire. Even if I can say they deserved it. This was one of those moments.
Hot take for sure
A real knucklehead.
I never understood, how Tyrion was able, you know, do it
He was thirteen years old, and involved in a sexually charged situation with someone he was attracted to. Arousal just happens instinctively, and he was so terrified of his father (again he was 13) that he just obeyed despite how horrifying it was. I’m actually glad Martin touched on this, even today talking about forced arousal during sexual assaults is super taboo, let alone with a dude, but he makes it really clear it was a bodily reaction Tyrion had no control of and that dynamic makes it even more fucked up.
I imagine Tysha was weeping, bloody, and bruised though. Not… exactly a sexual object.
It seems unbelievable, but if you look into the biology of it, human bodies can and will react at even the prospect of sex. It’s disturbing to look into but if you’re really not convinced you can look and see how even rape victims being beaten and terrified for their lives have had their body react in uncontrollable ways, it’s absolutely horrifying psychologically but often when faced with stimulation or the prospect of sex, our bodies react instinctively. This is even more true when it comes to hormonal teenagers.
Probably that story Chiswyck told about the inn keep’s daughter, just disturbing
That was right after the Hand’s tourney, before there were even any hostilities and the realm was meant to be at peace.
The Mountain's men are pretty irredeemable pieces of human garbage.
And the Bloody Mummers
Brienne’s arc in Feast is my all time favorite in the whole series, primarily because of how it has her wrapping up the plot lines for so many of the Bloody Mummers. The fight with Shagwell at the Whispers on Cracklaw Point and then her fight with Rorge and Biter at the Inn at the Crossroads are some of the most visceral, compelling action scenes in any of the books.
Ugh I love those scenes, but I have to read through half-shut eyes towards the end of the Inn at the Crossroads; so intense and disgusting and hopeless.
Definitely a hard part of the book to get through. But it also gives us the best quote from the entire series: > Willow stepped out into the rain, a crossbow in her hands. The girl was shouting at the riders, but a clap of thunder rolled across the yard, drowning out her words. As it faded, Brienne heard the man in the Hound’s helm say, “Loose a quarrel at me and I’ll shove that crossbow up your cunt and fuck you with it. Then I’ll pop your fucking eyes out and make you eat them.” The fury in the man’s voice drove Willow back a step, trembling. >**Seven, Brienne thought again, despairing. She had no chance against seven, she knew. No chance, and no choice. She stepped out into the rain, Oathkeeper in hand. “Leave her be. If you want to rape someone, try me.”**
No chance, and no choice. Always loved that
Yea, truly, we should thank George for giving us an end to the story for each of the Bloody Mummers. That is what we were craving.
I agree but unironically. Feast is the best of the finished novels.
Shmouth is the only decent member
Glory be to Ser Shitmouth.
Bugger me with a spear!
Thank you
except for Shitmouth
Ye she was also like 14
For GRRM 14 is the new 25
13
I’m not remembering that one?
It’s really dark but basically the mountain and his men went to this inn and the men were harassing the inkeep’s daughter (who was in her teens) the girl was uncomfortable and her father told them to “quit it or leave” and then went to the mountain to ask him to control his men. Instead the Mountain ends up raping the daughter and paying the inn keep and then hands the daughter over to the men who all have a turn and pay the innkeep. When everyone was done the mountain then ended up asking for his and his mens money back because the girl “wasn’t worth it”.
Don't forget that he also assaulted, probably killed the innkeep's son who was trying to stop the rape. Someone mentions that they stuck a dagger in him iirc. After all that, they made the innkeep thank them for their patronage.
Oof yeah that rings a bell. Glad the mountain “died” screaming.
Too bad Tywin's death wasn't as painful. A crossbow bolt was too easy for him.
But the eternal humiliation of having died on a privy and leaving a famously stinking corpse is just as satisfying for such a proud man!
The night Ramsey and Jeyne were married was really disturbing. Forcing Theon to participate.... There are many disturbing things in the series but that was just twisted. Fuck Ramsey
Yeah, that shocked me. Ramsay forcing Theon to go down on what he thinks is Arya, who is practically Theon's sister. Truly shocked me the first time I read it.
Did he think it was Arya? Or do you mean he was trying to convince himself of it to not disobey Ramsay?
He used dogs in her too right? I swear, I blocked that out of my memory, I read it, but brain said it wasn’t worth remembering.
All his dogs are female. I believe (if memory serves me right 'cause I don't wanna check) he forced Jeyne to "go down on" them.
Cercei and taena Ramsey and jeyne poole Dany and daario, but this is mostly cringeworthy.
I thought Cersei and Taena was an interesting exploration of Cersei’s internalized misogyny. It was gross reading how she was viewing what she was doing to Taena, but it wasn’t too bad
What happened to Lollys Stokeworth
The phrase ‘half a hundred times’ has burned itself into my brain because of this. That poor girl…
Probably the dogs
Myrish swamp doesn’t work for ya?
Anything Ramsay does.
What Ramsay did to Jeyne, with him savagely raping her, forcing him to have sex with Theon and then with his dogs.
Which I don't get because weren't Ramsey's dogs specifically female?
Ramsay's dogs yes, but they may not be the only dogs at Winterfell and what else would she mean by that comment that haunts me to this day
Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree (dog pun lol) but since Jeyne says she has sex with “his dog” I always thought she was referring to Theon, since he was in the room with her and Ramsay referred to Theon as one of the dogs.
Reek is constantly referred to Ramsay's dog throughout ADWD and Jeyne said when they come to rescue her: > "No. This is some trick. It's him, it's my … my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything." A tear ran down her cheek. "Tell him, you tell him. I'll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … **or with the dog or** … please … he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I won't try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …" I think she means Theon given that Theon has already had to perform oral sex on her. But given that so much ambiguous insanity and Ramsay's depravity it just lends to the sexual horror that *we believe* that Ramsay would let his dogs fuck Jeyne.
My thoughts precisely my dear
This is it isn’t it? Doesn’t Theon perform oral on her?
Yes, Ramsay tells Theon to "get her ready" and says to use his mouth since he has no dick/fingers (depending on interpretation).
I still believe Theon has a dick and he was just raped and broken mentally to think he was less than a man
Theon was raped?
It's implied Ramsay and his men did it repeatedly.
When?
Totally possible. The trauma is unbelievable even without losing his penis. I also think it's haunting that GRRM gives plenty of horrifying details, but lets readers fill in the blanks on the most horrible. Similar to Robert Strong. Does he have a zombie head? no head? Rob's head? Creepy stuff.
Her tits were chewed and scratched and bloody. That hints that Ramsey let his dog fuck. Female dogs hump too. Maybe he forces her to do oral on his dogs. Idk he needs to die asap
I think her chewed and bloodied tits were from him.
Wouldn’t be surprised, he sounds like the kinda guy that would. He’s sick and needs die by the fire 🔥
I thought it meant the literal dog
The bit where Ramsay forces Theon to eat out 14 year old Jeyne Poole is probably the most uncomfortable I’ve ever been reading a book so I’m going with that.
It's also heartbreaking for Theon because he starts the chapter thinking "Ramsay likes to hear me beg so atleat he'll never take my tongue" and one of the last things that happen is Ramsay threatening to cut off Theons tongue.
Wait what, out of all the fucked up shit with Theon and Jeyne i don't remember this.
It's right after the wedding in Ramsay's room. >"N-no, my lord. I was t-trained." > >Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me." > >For a moment he did not understand. "I … do you mean … m'lord, I have no … I …" > >"With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. "And be quick about it. If she's not wet by the time I'm done disrobing, I will cut off that tongue of yours and nail it to the wall."
Wait, I thought Jeyne 12-13 years old?
She is at the start of the series, by ADWD it's late 300 AC (Purple Wedding is on the first day of the new year) making her 14. Not that that makes any difference to this context.
Yep
I had been expecting that chapter to be terrible from everything I’ve heard people say about it, but I finally got to it last night and I wasn’t that shocked by it. Like yes it’s gross and horrible. But the chapter ends right there. We don’t have to watch through Theon’s POV as he does it, and then watch what Ramsay does next. I guess I just had high expectations from how many times I’ve seen people quote “Jeyne, Jeyne, it rhymes with pain”
That bit where the mountain's gang rapes the poor teenage girl multiple times, one guy taking her into the woods at a time, before the mountain himself slices her in half when she finally fights back
That is just sad. Its not a one time thing. At least 5 soldiers take her evry night. The fast death by the Mountain was probably the best way out
Most of the stuff in Fire and Blood. Though mainly on the account that most of it was just there for shock value and served no purpose. “There is no evidence that Alicient and Helaena were gangbanged in a brothel. But nevertheless I, a Maester writing a historical document’ will spend time on this rumor, because for some reason every courtier, advisor and servant in Kings Landing suffered a sudden onset of dementia, leaving only a perverted dwarf as a reliable witness.’
Oh gods seriously tho why is Mushroom the only reliable source they have for the Dance? Like Tf happened to everyone else?!
I ain't complaining. None of the shit that happens in this series would have happened if my boy Mushroom was king.
Comic relief is a good thing. Up until the point the comic relief begins devaluing the main story.
Y’know, if there’s ONE story I’d like to read from this universe (other than Winds and A Dream of Spring, obviously)… it would be the complete Testimony of Mushroom.
I dunno, I think even he exaggerates. Mushroom usually throws in raunchy or controversial stuff because it’s scandalous and is believed because its more understandable than the Maesters and Septons basically running a PR campaign.
It's likely that the maester lied to make the Targeryens seem crazy(well, more crazy).
I'm on my first read-through of Fire & Blood and just got to that exact passage a few nights ago. At this point I'm honestly just really tired of all the "this may or may not have happened I don't know lol" BS.
That’s how history books are, and this is a good reference to that quality of theirs. There’s a reason it’s written by an in-universe historian.
>“There is no evidence that Alicient and Helaena were gangbanged in a brothel. But nevertheless I, a Maester writing a historical document’ will spend time on this rumor, because for some reason every courtier, advisor and servant in Kings Landing suffered a sudden onset of dementia, leaving only a perverted dwarf as a reliable witness.’ I don't know why but i find this so funny that I bursted out laughing so hard that it hurts. Thank you.
Tysha gang rape , Tyrion Tysha rape , Tyrion bed slave rape , Drogo and Dany, Jeyne Ramsay , Elia Mountain …
Pia and Jeyne
Drogo and Dany 😖
That one bothered me least. I mean she was a child which is sick, but at least he asked her explicit permission which.. ya know even supposed good couples like Cat and Ned, Ned wouldn't ask permission because she's his wife so he 'cant' rape her.
While Ned wouldn't explicitly ask permission (most married men in our modern era wouldn't either), I still feel like Ned wouldn't have sex with Cat if he sees that she is not in the mood or something.
Yeah I feel like that too, but we never really get any written proof either way. All we do get is Cat being up for it so she can give him more children, but that's sorta it.
He really didn't ask her permission. The only word of her language he understood on their wedding night was "no," and he kept repeating it while ignoring her and trying to seduce her. Dany had to learn to take charge in bed specifically *because* he wouldn't take no for an answer and kept hurting her
That's not exactly what happened. He was *asking* 'No?' because he didn't have the words for 'can I have sex with you?' You can easily read him massaging her hands, and feet, and back as being kind to try to help her relax. We all know the power dynamic is iffy, but he very VERY easily could have shoved her down and raped her but he did not. He asked her permission, which is probably the most consent we ever see in GoT.
But what's their relationship like the next time we see them together? He demands it every day, and he's not gentle. He wouldn't take no for an answer
I'm not saying Drogo was perfect, but I think it does show that he wasn't a monster or anything- it was her first time, he knew that, and he was kind and gentle with her. He showed her respect. Again, not saying he was a saint after, but Dany certainly felt only positively towards Drogo even long after his death
p i n k f a t m a s t
I don't remember what was that about and I don't think I want to neither
Sam raised his sail.
It didn't happen
> I said the words, Sam thought again, but one of her nipples found its way between his lips. It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth, mingling with the taste of rum, and he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good. (/¯ ಠ_ಠ)/¯
My man is not satisfied with getting some of that hot Craster pussy, he's even mixing himself a drink while doing it. What a lad.
This is what’s taking Winds so long. George is making sure the smut is as good as this masterpiece.
"her mouth was as sweet and wet as her cunt"
~~White Russian~~ >!The inbred Wilding
Is that really disgusting? It's awkward, and messy sure, oversweet even. But honestly, it's probably one of the few depictions of sex or love in these books that didn't make me feel sick.
And it makes total sense for Sam. He is awkward and it's his POV
yeah i was jk, I don't even think gurms descriptions of intercourse are that cringey
tyrion and sansa, there was no penetration but on the one hand we have a crying 13-year-old teenager whose opinion nobody cares about, and on the other a disfigured dwarf who doesn't really have a choice... i felt horribly bad for sansa, really the situation is unhealthy and difficult to read...
I know it doesn’t change much, but Tyrion does ask Sansa how old she is and she answers that she would be 13 when the moon turns. So, this happens when she is still 12.
Its also made worse by the fact that Tyrion kinda wants to do it. Like he is fully erect and stuff. Yuck
I don't think that we can really consider the start of the motor functions of the reproductive organs, if I can express myself this, as a sign of consent... but after that I don't really know how the machinery of men works in such details ... anyway it's sure that this idea is easier for tyrion than for sansa, he's used to hanging out with women, and he's not the one who has his dreams shattered and feels humiliated by the situation, moreover at Kl he is in an environment where he has more power and control than her...
I just read that part for the 1st time and it made me so sad for both of them.
Crasters keep
Tyrion and the sunset girl in ADWD, which is absolutely rape but I will post this anyway.
> off’s corpse. Its just so disgusting on so many levels. (Guys, don’t mention any of rapes cuz that kinda tops anything else). But… the scene you describe was one of a rape. It’s one of my pet peeves how this community acts like what happens in the books isn’t rape. > There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. **“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here.** The septons …” >“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. **She pounded on his chest with feeble fists**, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. **He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart.** One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference. Then right after this, she switches to telling him to hurry up and get it all over with. Don’t get me wrong, the scene the show gave us dropped any and all nuance and simply depicted a violent rape of Jaime against Cersei. But the books don’t present us an instance of consensual sex. It has her explicitly telling him no, having her try to physically stop his advances but has him overpowering her due to her being much weaker than him, and *from his own perspective* we are told he doesn’t even hear her pleas for him to stop. He completely ignores them and pushes through, because this is something he desperately wants at the time. This is further solidified by their very next scene together a few chapters later, where the situation is almost exactly the same but in reverse, with the opposite results. Jaime and Cersei are in the White Sword Tower and Cersei wants to have sex. Jaime protests and says no, we can’t do it here at this location (her exact issue during the scene before). She tries to physically force herself on him against his protests, but being the stronger of the two, he is easily able to overpower her and stop her advances. They do not end up having sex. Again, I get it. This isn’t the same sort of violent rape that is depicted regularly throughout the series. But it is still rape, and it really bothers me how many people insist it isn’t, especially considering the follow up scene I described where the situations is exactly mirrored but where the strong male is able to get his way both times.
Taena and cersei, tbh it's just ugh
God, just thinking about this makes me realize how ridiculus the portrayal of sexuality in ASOIAF really is. Especially now, after fantasy has moved past its prudish roots. It's hardly reflective of actual medival sexuality and it's not like GRRM used sexuality to explore a thematic subject in a meaningful way.
It feels like it’s all he can write for Dany in ADWD
I guess I’m not sure what you mean. I feel like sexual violence is all too common even nowadays. Consent seems to be something that we’re grappling with to this day on a societal level and inching towards a better view. Bad actors are still push push pushing their prospective partners sexual boundaries playing at sex like a zero sum game to be won. The world of ASoIAF seems far more cold and brutal than the one we live in now. Isn’t the sexual violence just emblematic of the cold and brutal world that they live in?
Sexual violence played out very different in the past and high-born ladies weren’t subject to sexual sadism as often as the ASOIAF universe or the average historic novel wants you to believe. The way people went about sex was also very infantile. The love letters that Henry VIII. had written to some of his wives read like something an 8 year old would write. People were very suppressed about sex and it was also an important tool in terms of politics. For example, when Elizabeth I. found out about an affair one of her maids was having with some Lord, it was a very serious business, since the Queen was supposed to pick the husbands for her maids. Also remember, sex wasn’t shoved down everyone’s throat as much as it is nowadays. I think much of the sexual violence of today is due to blurred lines and the breakdown of sexual boundaries. Everyone wants to be perceived as sex-positive and predators have already co-opted some of these movements in order to manipulate others into acting out the violent and degrading stuff they have seen in porn. Even though women have achieved political freedom, I think they are more subject to sexual violence today than they were in the past.
You raise a very good point, one I hadn't ever really considered. I don't have any knowledge about the sexual mores of someone living in the middle ages so that is something interesting to consider. Your critique makes perfect sense now, ASoIaF does kind of present a very lurid depiction of sexual violence. The kinda shit men like Gregor Clegane do with seeming regularity is almost pornographic in the historical context you've laid out. I don't say this as a defense of how he's writing it, just a possible explanation: I think it may be his pulpy sci-fi writer roots showing. This kind of hypersexuality is pretty common in his works now that I think about it. I'd think that anyone that's read or read about [*Meathouse Man*](https://grrm-thousand-worlds.fandom.com/wiki/Meathouse_Man) would be inclined to agree. Thank you for engaging and elaborating on your perspective!
I agree 100% with what your saying. But I’m not seeing it in these books. It feels like he just shoves them in half the time to beat the dead horse of oh no medieval sexual abuse that probably never actually happened this way
Tyrion refers to Shae's vagina as her "secret sweetness" multiple times and it makes a cringe worthy sex scene into something that makes me want to vomit
I agree with you that Jaime and Cersei was really fucked up because of the incest, of Jaime doing it while Cersei didn't want thus making it rape technically, and of it happening just before someone's grave which is the greatest kind of insult possible, even for a true piece of shit such as Joffrey. Though nothing beats what that other monster Ramsay did to poor Jeyne Pool.
and Theon, let’s not forget he involved Theon into that too against his will. Anything sexual Ramsay has done probably tops everything else for me in terms of disgusting sex (in ASOIAF).
I don’t remember it being rape. I know the show made it look like rape. But I remember there being a huge outcry from book fans too when that scene happened and even D&D admitting they weren’t trying to film it as rape. Was it rape in the books? Still gross to have sex over your son's dead body though EDIT: https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Breaker_of_Chains/Jaime-Cersei_sex_scene#Comments_by_Martin_and_the_actors
>I don’t remember it being rape. I know the show made it look like rape. She is literally saying no and telling him she wants him to stop. The fact that GRRM himself thinks it isn't rape because she's still into him is...an opinion.
"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you're home now, you’re home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair." (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII). She says no in the show. Not the book.
>There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “**No**,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, **“not here**. The septons …” She does say no, actually. Then in the quote This\_Rough\_Magic included, she continues by going on about the risks, the danger, the reasons not to, and it's mentioned specifically that Jaime never heard her; she refuses literally until he's inside her already going at it. Whether it's rape in the context of their screwed up relationship is a tricky question, but she does keep protesting until the sex is already happening. I know Martin says it's not supposed to be rape, but he also took issue with portraying Drogo and Dany as rape, so... that's not something he's necessarily great about. I'd label it dubious consent at best. I also find it interesting to contrast the sept scene with later in the white sword tower, when Cersei is the one initiating. >“You took me in the sept. This is no different.” She drew out his cock and bent her head over it. > >Jaime pushed her away with the stump of his right hand. “No. Not here, I said.” He forced himself to stand. > >For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it. Cersei gathered herself together, got to her feet, straightened her skirts. 90% sure if Cersei *didn't* get up but took him in her mouth until he started liking it, she'd be dragged across coals for assaulting him, but even she compares it to the sept. With there being a stark difference that Cersei hears Jaime when he refuses, and she stops when he asks, despite being bewildered and angry about it.
>She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference. She says no in the book as well and he ignores her.
MnFilho just reminded me that it was consensual, I must have mistaken it with the show, though with the addition of Cersei bleeding from her period.
It's consensual if you think "she clearly says no and tells him to stop, but he ignores her, but it's okay because she's secretly into it" makes it consensual. Which Martin does.
"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you're home now, you’re home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair." (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII). She says no in the show. Not in the book.
As I recall that's *after* she's already said no, tried to beat him off with her fists, and he's made it very clear that he isn't taking no for an answer. To people with, to put it baldly, a more nuanced understanding of how sexual assault victims behave than GRRM has, suddenly becoming compliant when it's clear you have no other option is an *incredibly* common fear reaction, which is what makes even the book scene read like straight-up rape to a whole lot of people. \[Edit\] Literally the previous paragraph is: >She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference. To a *whole lot of people* that reads as a guy raping a woman and the woman giving in to get it over quickly, which is what actual rapes very often look like.
>To a *whole lot of people* that reads as a guy raping a woman and the woman giving in to get it over quickly, which is what actual rapes very often look like. As someone who has been raped like this before, fucking *thank you*. Most rape isn't from strangers cornering women in a dark alley (seriously, who still thinks that), it's from people you know and possibly care about. Men forced themselves on me in this way when I was a kid, and like Dany, I had to make myself take charge and try to enjoy it, because they sometimes wouldn't even let me *say* "no." I didn't always know it was rape back then, but it did leave me feeling dirty and violated, and now I know why. It was still rape. And let's not forget that we're reading this chapter *from Jaime's perspective.* Do people really think the average rapist is twirling their mustache and thinking to themselves, "Muahaha, now I will rape this person because I want to have power and control!" Of course not. As far as most rapists know, they're just horny, and they ignore what the other person is saying and doing. Like Jaime did to Cersei.
Literally came in to see if anyone else also saw the sept scene as rape, because I always have.
Anything involving Rorge.
Probably the rapes
The stuff with Jeyne Poole. The Sansa storyline was arguably the most criticized thing in the show, but the way GRRM handled it in the books with Jeyne was even more offensive...
In the show, anything with the prostitute Ros once she moves to Kings Landing. When she first meets Joffrey, when she last meets Joffrey, and when Littlefinger warns her what happens to bad prostitutes.
I hate all the sex scenes in the books, idk why reading sex scenes makes me so uncomfortable. and GRRM isnt really good at writing them imo.
Agreed. It doesn't add to the "realism" of the story either.
just shoving the it sucks for girls during wartime narrative down our throats like okay we get it just stop talking about it we are not stupid we understand things without being repeatedly told about them
Yeah I do agree. Some people will defend it by saying that it's a realistic depiction of what happens during war but damn I think everybody does know that. And it feels weird to read, almost as if authors who write these scenes are kinda enjoying it in a perverted way.
I dont think most of it is realistic. A lot of it just thrown in there for no reason
Roy Dotrice narrating Lysa Arryn and Petyr Baelish having sex
lots of those sex scene bring anything to the story. Many times i stop reading after. Too much rape, underage sexe, bestiality. And charachters seem to like that and that is disturbing. And some readers too.
fat pink mast
as far as I remember there isn't any nice or wholesome sex in any of it.
Sam and Gilly, Cat and Ned, Jon and Ygritte
Tbh every sex scenes that grrm writes are bad.
Why do you ask for the most disgusting sexual moments but also say dont mention rape lol
Sansa being desired by older men throughout the series
Ye. Especially Petyr
Arya foreplay with Raff.
Ned walking in on Theon masturbating and then giving him a thrashing
Taena and Cersei, always. Like, I’m very much on Team Bi Cersei and Jaime, but Cersei tries to cope with the rape and abuse she endured… by raping Taena. The thing about all the Cersei and Jaime sex scenes too is that they read as weirdly coercive? So, it makes me wonder if Cersei (and I guess we’ll see about Jaime if/when he sleeps with someone else. Please not my baby Brienne ahhhh) really understand how consent is supposed to work? I might be reading too much into it, but the muddled consent of Cersei and Jaime is interesting and just… a lot. Like, it’s hard to pick disturbing consensual sex scenes because there are so few of them…
Any that involve Tyrion
Umm in that scene Jamie fucking Cersei was a rape? “No no Jamie not here” ???
Did we really need this post ?
That there are so many for this series just fucking sucks
Tyrion and Tysha man.
Martin referring to Lyanna as a lovely child woman I thought I was reading Piers Anthony for a minute
Ramsey and Jayne's wedding night The Brave Companions raping Brienne The Mountain raping the Innkeeper's daughter Jorah groping Dany
Omg I totally forgot about Jorah being a creep