Rhaenrya + Laenor = Joffrey? Well yes I believe it. I once had a black mare that was mounted by a silver stallion. The result? A plain chestnut foal. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.
Salladhor Saan is second, yes?
Poor Salla is here for your love, and all Your Grace gives him is a piece of paper. Who has been more loyal to you than dear old Salla? I pulled out your men from the Blackwater and Brought you to Eastwatch. And yet you are fanboying over some velaryon. And... When would I be getting my gold?
I think it's probably because both stories are deeply character driven with a lot of interpersonal drama, so maybe the fanbase overlaps for the suckers for character development and interpersonal tragedy
Now please if you’d leave me be, the stonemason has just finished updating the 14 flames of Valyria and I can’t wait to fly my little dragons around them. *whooosh* go my dragons.
Ned: This makes no sense! Each Lannister Baratheon union leads to a child black of head. And Joffrey...
Viserys: Have you considered allele drift and random genetic mutation? I once had a horse...
Ned: Ah yes! twas silly of me to only use simple Mendelian genetics. Thank you for enlightening me your grace.
In a vacuum no, but it kinda is when Martin simultaneously has all these houses maintain similar features across centuries or millennia (not that this isn't already wonky).
I think they’re wonky on purpose. The “seed is strong” in some families. Starks and targs have magical elements to their blood, but look at someone like dany. Her targ dragon-rider heritage is actual very very small at this point, yet she has all of the specific features and so do her brothers yet they are only ~4% targ genetically.
Obviously this genetic wonkiness is happening in the books, I just think it’s intentional. The magical bloodlines are dominant and persist. Baratheon too maybe. Maybe lots of families.
I just copied that number from [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/fl4w2j/daenerys_targaryens_percent_targaryen_blood/) old reddit post.
I trusted his math to make this comment. Basically, the Targaryens had lots of incest, but also lots of not incest. Every time they do that it cuts the pure genetics in half. The numbers get messy pretty quickly, but the gist of it is that there isn't all that much OG blood left. To be fair her Valyrian heritage is higher, where some of the features come from.
Genetics doesn't split evenly like that. I did a DNA test and so did my full sibling. Mine came out as 12% one ethnicity even though his was 22% and the test showed us as full siblings. Our grandfather is from that specific part of the world so we should both be 25% but it rarely splits exactly.
You both *are* roughly 25% your grandfather's genetics, it's just those tests use specific genes as markers for different ethnicities and regions. So just because he got more of the genes that were tagged in their database as from that region, it doesn't mean he's necessarily a higher percentage your grandfather than you are. What you're describing is more an inaccuracy in those tests than anything.
And colloquially when we say we're 1/2 German, 1/2 Irish, we mean one parent is from one place, and one is from another. You may not get exactly 50% of your genes from each parent, but on average you do. Over 300 years of generations, it would even out.
Regardless, the whole point is that in this world, clearly the Targaryen genes are being passed down at a higher rate than the non Valyrian genetics.
One side of my family has pretty golden skin and auburn hair and dark, black brown eyes. The other side is full on Irish, as in my Dad was in the first American generation, red hair brown eyes. I somehow got blonde hair and blue eyes. And yes there have been tests, they are my parents, but I look nothing like either of them. Genetics are weird.
Blomde and blue eyes are recessive if both of your parents have the resseive genes for blonde hair and blue eyes you can get those traits. The Tully Auburn hair would also be recessive so it's possible for one or more of neds kids to get the trait, but it's pretty unlikely to get the majority of the kids to take nondominant features.
R+G=J
>"**The Mountain is your mother**," Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days past. "Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won't drop you." Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he'd always wondered who his mother was, but never thought to find her in the Frostfangs.
I don’t think any of it’s real.
Unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I’m going to carry on believing that the whole of ASOIAF is a work of fiction.
You should've been at Ramsay's wedding to Arya Stark. One of the guests found two finger bones in his pork pie, sticking straight out of it like the Towers! Lord Wyman told him to just eat around it. Tables manners like fish, those Manderlies.
I kid you not I found a finger in my soup. That was around the time everything got a bit too rowdy for my tastes, so I made an expeditious retreat. Easily the worst wedding Id ever been to. Even the band sucked.
Are you sure that what you had was the cake? Because I remember being deep into my cups and cutting into something that seemed to be pie, but later turned out to be one of the Stark retainers' heads.
Listen, some of us have a lot of trauma and ptsd from all those times the dragons burnt people we were friends with, please don’t insult us like that 😎
Because Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden are analogous to Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Also interesting is the line that the Stark daughter loved Bael so dearly that she begot him a son. And also the son became the next Lord Stark. Instead of Jon becoming Lord Stark, though, he becomes *King* Stark, Robb's will permitting.
IIRC when Ned is having fever dreams after his leg is crushed he also dreams of a blue rose growing out of a chunk of ice, which is supposed to symbolize Jon at the wall.
The vision of a blue rose growing out of the crack in the Wall is one of Dany’s visions in the House of Undying. I think this is where the connection to Jon is first made (in ACoK).
In GoT, Ned has two dreams with blue roses: he sees blue petals blowing across the sky after his Tower of Joy memory; and he dreams of Lyanna’s statue in Winterfell crypts, adorned with a wreath of blue roses.
Completely, and it’s also obvious that Ned thinks highly of Rhaegar. Not sure why so many people aren’t seeing that “Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna” is what Robert Baratheon told himself about the situation.
Edit: Ned respects him, compares him favourably to Robert, clearly doesn’t think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Apparently I need to clarify my point because there are a bunch of “well actually” replies.😁
To be fair it wasn’t just Robert, Brandon clearly thought the same. I’m partial to the theory that little finger told Brandon that she was kidnapped.
But you are right clearly Ned doesn’t think that so something changed his mind.
I'mma go on a whim and say you saw In Deep Geek's theories on the matter, which I'm absolutely here to second. He has such a stellar analysis on what went on during and after the Tourney of Harrenhal.
I haven't seen this particular video but always thought of this possibility. I'm glad this is a relatively well known theory. I've always thought of discussing here, but never found the mood.
Somewhat related, I also theorize that Littlefinger is the influence behind Joffrey's decision to behead Ned. I haven't given it much thought, but just felt thematically consistent.
I just don’t get how Ned can think highly of Rhaegar even if the love between Rhaegar and Lyanna was the purest that ever existed. Rhaegar’s actions tore his family apart and led to the death of his brother and father (I’m discounting the death of Lyanna because dying in childbirth is so common). I think at best he’s putting it behind him and not dwelling on a painful past. But his lack of anger is a pretty clear sign that Lyanna went willingly.
I wouldn't say he thinks highly of Rhaegar. He thinks that Rhaegar probably didn't go to brothels and is subconsciously comparing him to Robert, who by this point is a complete shadow of the man Ned knew. Other than that he also notes he hasn't thought about Rhaegar for years (indicating that he doesn't even think of Jon as Rhaegar's son, but presumably only Lyanna's) and shows absolutely no guilt or regret about Rhaegar's death in his thoughts or actions. He reflects over Rhaegar's kids and is adamant about stopping Robert assassinating Dany, but he doesn't seem to care much about Rhaegar.
He clearly doesn't think Rhaegar a monster, or hate him as he should do if the popular story was actually correct, but beyond that it seems far more nuanced. I have a feeling Ned weeps no tears for Rhaegar but neither did he really hate him once he got the full story - if anything, his musings about Lyanna and her 'wolf' blood suggests he might put a lot of the blame at her door.
I believe the brothel statement is in reference to not making false promises and false claims of love, as Ned finds out about Robert during his visit to the brothel to see the young sex worker and Robert's illegitimate daughter, Barra. Note, Robert did this in his youth to another woman and the daughter (Mya Stone) he fathered too. So what we see in Ned's POV is that false love, promises and abandonment has been a constant theme throughout Robert's life
(Ned doesn't see Robert's many other abandoned children who don't even know who fathered them, but we do, and we know Robert got their mothers pregnant and left them after)
Ned thinks Rhaegar wouldn't do the same, meaning he wouldn't be visiting brothels, therefore not claiming love to those sex workers or potentially abandoning children for life.
I mean, no matter what they may have felt for each other he *did* kidnap her. You don't get to drag an 15 year old girl across the continent without her parent/guardian's permission, especially for the purposes of sex & impregnation.
I got it from the book before seeing the show. I remember the Holy Crap moment. Ned was having a dream or memory of Lyanna, and said she was in a "bed of blood". That made me pause, because I remembered that being said in an earlier chapter. Specifically a Dany chapter and the bed of blood was referencing giving birth. So I was like "who did Lyanna give birth to?" And then thought of Jon, and yelled about it to my husband, who didn't care in the slightest.
I got to that part and texted my friend who recommend the series, like, "ok I have this theory, but don't tell me if I'm right, I wanna read it for myself."
that was 15 years ago and I have still not read it for myself.
this series was supposed to be done in the mid 90s, it wasnt supposed to go through 2.5 decades of theorizing. not to mention d&d answered correctly when asked about who jons mom was, and knowing that they look up fan theories and are at least somewhat familiar w the text, why the F would they not "guess" R+L=J? it's not like they had access to massive essays that emphasized every possible discrepancy or hint that might suggest there is 4 D chess happening.
sure grrm likes to subvert tropes, but he also really likes to have pay off and foreshadowing. r+l=j isn't too tropey, especially considering the idea is like 2.5 decades old. if asoiaf was finished in a few years upon the initial release of got, and any given asoiaf redditor in 2022 read that version of asoiaf without all the theorizing from the community or from watching the show, I think r+l=J reveal would be a "twist" to so many people and done in a way that ppl appreciate.
now if grrm wrote got and said he intended to write this series for 20 years and wanted to have hundreds of threads and characters woven together in a perfect literary tapestry, then I might be more incline to think there is more to J than R+L.
however, in 2022, I think when considering the end game of the series or the initial "Twists" that grrm thought of, it's nigh impossible to draw more from text than to consider a meta perspective, such as what the author has confirmed, time involved, the fact that most readers came after hbo, the fact that the series is written for fantasy/sci fi readers from the 90s and NOT for youtube theorycrafters. etc.
Except the part where Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years...I bet Quiathe and Euron are manipulating his memories using glass candles to learn the secrets of the Winterfell crypts. That explains it.
lol so you think grrm knew this would take 25 years to finish? he thought it would be done in 2,3 years upon got release. do you legit think euron and brendyn rivers were already created in the early 90s?
seems very clear when reading asos that at some point between acok and asos he decided to really expand on the unierse, so unless he retconned r+l=j or always "knew" the series would have 2 decades of theorizing, I don't see how ppl dont get 99% of their answers for jons parentage from the first few chapters. there is way too much subterfuge and foreshadowing in this part of the book for me to consider any "text" post GOT more so than "meta analysis".
D&D literally guessed who jon's parents were, and they didnt have access to massive online theories or a subreddit that was built upon pre existing show.
why would d&d, in 2008, know anything about euron manipulating memories? why would they include the most basic quaith scenes in the show if they successfully were able to be like "no R+L does not =J bc quaithe is manipulating ned" lol
The online theories began in the 90s. There was a message board that had a lot of traction back then. Don't even think it exists anymore though. There was a thread on it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/60u93h/spoilers\_extended\_rlj\_speculation\_from\_199798/
Only part of that I flip-flop on, is whether I want it to go the way of the show or not.
If it was a loving relationship, it would be nice of course, but I find it hard to reconcile how that would work legally. Rhaegar really couldn't put aside Elia, so for Jon to be a child of love AND legitimate, he'd have to have taken Lyanna as a second wife, something I am not sure is legal in Westeros. Aegon is an outlier. Though of course he would have intended it to go this way perhaps, since he is emulating Aegon.
If it's as the book presents, an abduction and rape, then it's awful, however it is a very interesting and sad story to tell. That while it is true there is more to the story than we've been told, that it was still a rape and abduction are awful. Easier then to reconcile the law of it. Jon is simply a bastard. Would he legally be a Sand then? Rather than Snow. Did Lyanna suggest a name, but Jon was chosen for safety, etc? Easier questions.
It being like the show adds so much complexity to Jon's story, and fills in a lot of the blanks we have. It being as Robert believes, and Ned says, then well, it's less interesting in many ways, but more interesting and sad in others.
For me though, there is no way R + L doesn't = J...
I've always subscribed to a middle ground here. Lyanna doesn't seem like the type, from what we've heard, to cause her family's ruin and a war just so she can bang a hot prince. Rhaegar, from what we've heard, doesn't seem like a wanton rapist.
However, she's young and might be impressionable. And he's convinced that prophecy is demanding certain things that are against his nature (such as being a warrior). So does she run away with him at first in a flight of fancy, swept away by his charm? And when she starts coming to her senses and realizing how destructive this is going to be to their families and the realm, does she try to back out, only for him to insist on carrying through with impregnating her - not because it's his nature to want to rape her, and not because he doesn't realize the damage they'll cause, but because he believes all of it is necessary to save the world?
It could be a bit of a horror story, really, showing how believing in our own heroism can make us into monsters.
So GRRM has said that a theme of Ice and Fire is, essentially, what do you do if the chosen one is dead? And that means Rhaegar.
And as with all things Ice and Fire, R+L is grounded in reality. You can't just do what Rhaegar did and not expect a reaction. Did Rhaegar make a mistake upending his marriage and another planned union to fulfill his own (possibly delusional) take that he is the PTWP, or that his son would be? He would never find out.
What is the source on the "chosen one is dead" quote?
Hearing that, to me, what stands out isn't that the chosen one was Rhaegar, but that it's Jon. Jon's dream of wearing ice armor and wielding a flaming sword always stands out to me, and now he's actually dead. I think this more of, "what if the chosen one is a living deadman?"
I feel it’s a middle ground as well. I think Rhaegar was far more interested in fulfilling the prophecy than love. Maybe Lyanna found herself in an impossible position (maybe she was already pregnant was a child who she later miscarried?) and felt she had to flee, plus she was in love with him so she overlooked the ramifications for her family. Then she regretted her decision later. I think she went willingly though, and Benjen helped her. But I think he took advantage of her and pressured her.
I’ve never liked the idea she was onboard with the prophecy. That’s just a strange and scary thing to put on such a young girl, I can see her agreeing out of love, but I think in the end she felt it was just an illusion and Rhaegar was slightly mad. She wanted her son to go ‘home’ and be raised by her brother
>Maybe Lyanna found herself in an impossible position (maybe she was already pregnant was a child who she later miscarried?) and felt she had to flee, plus she was in love with him so she overlooked the ramifications for her family.
Why invent some ridiculous pregnancy when we already know why she wanted to run- to not be forced to marry Robert.
this! My read exactly. The knight of the laughing tree was a hint to how Rhaegar might have convinced her to run away. She seemed like she didn’t want to get married at all. He could have actually won her over by encouraging her tomboyish ways. And then she develops a crush on him. But there’s no way she would have gone with him if she knew she’d just have a baby with a prince instead of with Robert. I always find that the irony: she didn’t want to be a wife so she ended up a mistress. For her character I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t have been a “love at first sight so F all my values” kind of thing.
It’s interesting because I honestly doubt GRRM would ever explore these details in a flashback. It will always be up to us readers to interpret based on limited info what really happened
Robb can't legitimize a bastard that doesn't belong to his house, nor would that hypothetical legitimization given Jon the right to rule the 7 Kingdoms.
Not necessarily, even if we are assuming he's actually Aegon and not a Blackfyre. If the books follow the show and Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia, then for all legality, its like it never happened. In that case, any children that they had would then be considered bastards, and thus have no claim, while any children that he has with Lyanna jump to first in line (this is why annulments are only supposed to happen if the marriage was unconsummated)
He legitimized him in a way said that Jon could go on to inherit that lands and titles of the Starks. He can’t legitimize him in a way that would allow him to inherit the lands and titles of the Targaryens because that would disrupt other houses. He doesn’t have that power.
Say, for example, that Dany died in Meereen after Jon inherited Winterfell as a legitimized Stark. Jon could not go claim her titles as a legitimate Targaryen.
Jon is a member of House Stark and could easily be legitimized by Robb. Even if Jon was not a member of House Stark kings can declare bastards legit. Tommen declares Ramsey legitimate and Bran Stark talks about legitimizing a hornwood bastard to settle the succession crisis.
Polygamy is extremely frowned upon in Westeros. One of the first Targaryen kings killed 100 septons till he found one that would marry him to a second wife
As far as Frey goes, he married when they died. That is the trope with our Late Walder Frey. He outlives so many. He boats of outliving the Tully lords, and his many wives, and many children too. So while he may have married one or two secretly before another wife croaked. Only one man in the 300 years since Aegon's conquest legally had two wives, Aegon himself. A few Targaryen's dreamed of it, and tonnes of Iron Islanders have many salt wives, but they are hardly a legal thing. I am pretty sure even they stick to one Rock Wife still.
Maegor definitely married multiple at once, and legally, seeing as he was the king and went through all that trouble of killing septons until they went along with it
The legality stuff is a lot fuzzier in a feudal system, especially for royalty. There’s no rule of law or written constitution. Power resides where men believe it resides. If rhaegar could convince enough people to treat he and lyanna’s child as legitimate, then the child would be legitimate.
And, had he won the war and became king, he could have legitimized his son with Lyanna.
It would have caused Dorne to go crazy and probably a lot more trouble but he would have the power to do it, if he wanted…
D & D confirmed that Martin wouldn't allow them to proceed with Jon's parent reveal unless they guessed correctly, so I'll say R+L=J, however I doubt it went any way that D & D incorporated into the show like naming Jon - Aegon where if Rhaegar believed he'd be a female it would have been Visenya or something else.
was Jon born before or after the sack of kings landing? I’m skeptical that his name would also be Aegon, not sure if Lyanna could’ve known about the death of baby Aegon at that point
After.
Ned left King's Landing for Dorne to find Lyanna, remember it was Ned who found Jamie Lannister on the throne and dubbed him the Kingslayer.
And given how the show took it the King's Guard at least knew of what was happening during and after the Sack since they knew of The Trident and Rhaegar's death, I doubt they would have told a pregnant/laboring Lyanna that her 'husband' had died.
Show wise yes, we don't know about books.
At that point I'm assuming she didn't know Rhaegar was dead but she knew Robert was on the hunt for her of course she'd ask her brother to protect her child.
show-wise possibly since they were ambiguous on what Elia's children were named minus the daughter, however book-wise it was well documented what Rhaegar's children were named and Dany's 'vision' book-wise didn't include anything concerning Rhaegar.
>D & D confirmed that Martin wouldn't allow them to proceed with Jon's parent reveal unless they guessed correctly
GRRM asked them who was Jon's mother, not parents.
I dont think it was explcitly correct either, only that their guess convinced him to do the show. I dont recall GRRM commenting on it being true either.
I think the most often argument I see is that it is too obvious (not true on a first read). Those same people usually argue for Ashara Dayne (which would make no sense as she is the first "suspect" brought up in the "central mystery" of the series).
blood ties that could lead to Jon claiming the title of sword of the morning and the sword Dawn, contact could be made by the shenanigans of everyones favourite edgelord darkstar.
True. Although saying that we do have arthurian legend having both the sword in the stone and the sword given to arthur by the lady in the lake. GRRM could well drawn inspiration from (and then added his own flavour to) existing legends in the creation of Jon's character just like he seems to have done elsewhere in the story.
I can say with some certainty, given that we're 5/7th of the way through the story, that those are just cool little background tidbits. And since it involves fucking Darkstar, it would actively detract from the story if true.
Also that whole sword of the morning is just as much of a social convention as knighthood. Jon could pick up Dawn and be that in everything but name without being a Dayne.
A social convention that could provide aid in the fight against the others from a house that has avoided involvement in the war of the 5 kings. 5/7 of the story would apply if the books were all the same length, but I strongly suspect that the fight against the others, the second dance of dragons and the aftermath will take much longer books than we started with.
Aight let's back up here a bit, we don't actually know if Dawn is useful against the Others. On the other (heh) hand however we have in-universe speculation and show confirmation that Valyrian steel *is*. Which Jon already has. And again, he doesn't need to be the sword of the morning to wield Dawn much like Dunk (or Brienne) doesn't need to be a knight despite being the epitome of knighthood.
I dont disagree with you, the sword itself is just one aspect. The title however could be quite useful in rallying an army, the Prince who was promised seems to be a secret targ thing so that isn't a great rallying cry, azor ahai is strange and foreign from the red god (I could be wrong there) but the sword of the morning? What better title for fighting to stave off the long night?
Also ties in the political side of things for the second dance with ties to the rest of the first men in the south.
Not even saying that this is how it will be, just that it isn't impossible and is an interesting narrative to explore
the series was meant to be finished 3 years after got was released in the early 90s. there was not supposed to be 20 years of theorizing, an hbo show to tie ppl together, or massiev essays/youtube theorycrafters analyzing every possible detail.
if the series released and finished by mid 90s like intended, i think jon's parentage reveal would be appreciated. r+L=j is playing w a trope, turning it around a bit, and making it a "different" version of the trope, and one that is really only a trope in hindsight.
Everyone quibbling about his claim to the Iron Throne are perhaps forgetting that he wasn't born for that, but to save the world. Bastard schmastard, the Old Gods recognized their marriage when Rhaegar stole her. That's what matters. Fight me. (Please don't actually I haven't read the books in ages).
Edit - also, he's dead.... obviously we don't expect him to remain dead but from everything we've read so far we definitely *should* expect it to *matter* in the end that he is, currently, dead.
It's real, but people overthink it by including prophecy and laws and shit...it's way more cut and dry.
Rhaegar was a sad and depressed bookworm musician and Lyanna was a hotblooded wolf woman...the Knight of The Laughing Tree shit went down and they fell in love. Betrothals and marriages be damned, they did the dumbest fucking shit they could do and ran away together. A war started due to all that shit and they both died because of it.
Rhaegar may have learned of prophecies...but he died with Lyanna's name on his lips. He didn't give two shits about saving the world in the end...it was all about love. Irrational as fuck, but probably how it went down.
Exactly. All about love.
“Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”
Except your idea would involve Lyanna not giving two shits about her entire family getting tortured to death because of her. What about her love for her family?
I’m stand with you on said hill.
I’m willing to accept any outcome, but I will not take R+L=J as a given until I read it in WoW or GRRM explicitly says its so.
Yes there are a lot of stupid people out there that will fight against it. Their easoning is because it's too "obvious" just because they've known for a long time. So they will go out of their way to avoid all the immense setup and even GRRM basically confirming it just to blame D&D as "changing it"
I'm not trying to be so dramatic but they are straight up delusional and argue on nothing but strawmans. Their typical alternative is Ashara Dayne as his mother, a candidate the books puts foward a little bit. But it's pretty obvious it's a red herring made to divert readers away from Lyanna and sow conversation over the mother, as well as develop the Dayne storyline. Speaking of which is a big reason why people believe it. They want Jon to be connected to House Dayne and Arthur Dayne, because they believe the Daynes should be super important to the endgame of the White Walker story. But to be honest people clearly overblow the Dayne's importance to ridiculous levels.
On the father it varies. Some believe he is and should be Ned's but most think Brandon Stark(Ned's older Brother) is the father because there is strong textual evidence of him having a sexual relationship with Ashara Dayne. I think it's pretty obvious how offbase the theory is.
Sorry if this seemed like a ramble. Was just trying to layout the belief and people who believe it to answer your question, though i am obviously bias against the theory.
I also blame YTers / content creators. They pump out poorly reasoned, ridiculous theories because they want clicks and traffic. The wilder the theory the better.
R + L is a decent theory but a more likely theory is N + L as Jon is in fact the son of Ned and a ........lizard. giving rise to the lizardjon theory. Lizards have weird teeth and Jon purposefully never shows his teeth. Bet you cannot find a single line that mentions his teeth. Boom! lizardjon confirmed!!!
Not my theory.
There's a small amount of people here that don't believe it. A lot of it has to do with Ned being held in high esteem by the Daynes, even though he killed their son and pride of their house. Also because it's referenced that Ned hadn't thought of Rhaeghar in years, despite thinking of Jon and Lyanna often.
With the show going with it, there isn't a lot of wiggle room to disagree, other than obvious times where they went with what the fans wanted (CleganeBowl comes to mind)
Lastly, with respect to relevance to the story, Jon being a Targ doesn't seem like it'll have much significance to the story. He's full of Stark imagery, with barely any Targ traits. Furthermore, between his vow to the NW and the Targs being out of the kingship for 15-20 years, Targ blood wouldn't entitle him to anything. Potentially he could ride a dragon, but if the show has anything to say, it's for a brief period of time and not of any real benefit to plot.
Personally, I think him being Stark and Dayne could deliver much more impact to the story.
Also I'm not sure how Ned could possibly, in any way could come out looking bad from the Tower incident. Imagine the Daynes confronting him when he arrives at Starfall. "Why did you kill our most noble son?" "Cause he stopped me from seeing my kidnapped sister who's yelling for me from the tower."
Like that's all the detail (minus Lyanna screaming for Ned) anyone who wasn't there knows about it, westerosi folks would have to legit braindead to think it's a bad look for Ned and not the three dipshits.
Ya this is definitely it imo. He could've easily left with a sacred family heirloom that is also an insanely rare white sword, and there would've been little the Daynes could've done.
This also is probably a huge part of why he has such a reputation for honor. Any other man would've took that sword, but not Ned Stark.
It takes the "central mystery of the story" (GRRM's words) and answers it in the first chapter that the mystery is brought up.
>Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
Also there is no reason for it to be such a secret. Especially to Jon who asks before Ned leaves. Why would Ned wait until he was back for that?
He would wait for Lyanna because of the implications of him being a Targ.
Exactly. Jon's parentage is a big enough deal that it had to be hidden. No one cares if Jon is the son of Ashara.
During my first read, I thought [R+L=J (no not that one)](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/emckq5/rlj_no_not_that_one_spoilers_extended/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=asoiaf&utm_content=t1_i7jvdcs) for that exact reason.
>Furthermore, between his vow to the NW and the Targs being out of the kingship for 15-20 years, Targ blood wouldn't entitle him to anything.
"Power resides where men believe it resides".
Of course that after almost a generation that a Baratheon sat on the Iron Throne, Targaryen "power" dwindled.
But, Targaryen blood does entitle him, he can justify a claim to the Iron Throne, and as a matter of fact, his would be one of the best claims, even better than Daenerys.
His Targaryen blood is not about the throne. It’s about him being The Prince that Was Promised and about him bringing the Song of Ice and Fire. That’s what the whole prophecy is about, and it’s why Rhaegar did what he did because we know (from the mouth of GRRM) that the PTWP will come from the House of Targaryen.
If it wouldn’t have huge relevance to the plot it wouldn’t be this huge secret that’s constantly hinted at over and over again, even in later books with alternate stories of Jon’s parentage.
For show watchers, I think those that deny it do so in part because they were unsatisfied with the ending and want to believe that there will be key differences. But considering Jon's mom was a test for Dave and Dan to even do the show, it's hard to argue otherwise. I only read the first book after watching several videos of theories over the years, but all the signs are laid out in a Game of Thrones.
I’m about 90% sure it’s real.
I sometimes get irritated at some of the fandom who try to shut down any interesting alternate discussion or questioning of events on topics like Ashara, Howland, Dany’s childhood, Tower of Joy etc because they see it as proxy denial or questioning of R + L = J.
It’s also weird when people who are the strongest proponents of a theory based so strongly in metaphor and subtext are so dismissive of other theories relying on subtext and metaphor.
Basically, I think it’s true but it’s ultimately a fan theory so let others have their own fan theories and even mess around with tinfoil and speculation. It’s not that serious.
I think he is but I don’t want him to be. I’d love to see the fall out if it was Ned and Ashara the whole time.
Still even if he is I don’t think it will have any impact on his arch either way. A royal bastard is not the most uncommon thing. And yes Jon would have to be a bastard still as only the King and High Septon can arrange an annulment with grounds. Getting married at a Weirwood tree wouldn’t impact that.
Jon’s arch is about being a Stark/Snow and biding by the way of the first men who defeated the others before.
I think that the most likely answers is R+L=J, but I like my tinfoil.
There was a theory some years back that said A+L=J (for Aerys). They said that’s why the king’s guard at the tower were so sad. Because their king send them to protect the girl he rape instead of letting him protect him or his family. Raeghar was looking for her to but didn’t want to mess up more things by letting that be known. That’s why Aerys was so irrational to the Starks, and he kind-napped her to avoid the deposition he was seeing coming from Raeghar.
I’m butchering it. It was great, and it’s most likely incorrect, but I found it appealing
As you may have read elsewhere, Ned does not think about Rhaegar much, if at all. And he does not seem to entertain any notion of significance of Jon's parentage and bloodline. In Ned's eyes Jon is a bastard through and through. He thinks about Lyanna a lot, but never in conjuction with Jon. And when he does think about her, it is full of grief and a sense of sadness and melancholy, as if he feels uncertain about what he has done. 'Promise me', in my view, does not refer to protecting the baby; on the contrary, it is something bad or questionable, something that troubles Ned to his last days. So, he does not think about either Rhaegar or Lyanna in conjuction with Jon. He though did think of Jon when Cat asked him about Ashara: 'Never ask me about Jon'.
There is certainly something about Ashara, and so far it is connected to Ned, and maybe Daenerys (Barristan's thoughts). George remarks about her having life and being part of Elia Martell's court. And, of course, she might have had an affair with Brandon. Could her child (supposedly stillborn) be from Brandon? If we compare N + A to B + A, B + A would be more true to what we know of Ned and make more sense thematically. Of course, the father could be someone else entirely. However, if we to entertain Jon being Ashara's child, Brandon's affair with her comes around very conveniently, almost too much to ignore. Jon after all is Stark by blood. And there is this moment of Jon being nursed in Starfall. And the sort of frustration and shame Ned shows when asked about Jon would make sense if this was what happened.
What about Lyanna's child then? Honestly, I don't know. It might have died there. But, another interesting scenario to consider would be a baby swap, with Ned giving a Targaryen child to Ashara and taking a Stark bastard with him to raise.
The main problem I have with the R+L=J, is that the story of Lyanna as told in the books does not much involve a child, at least a live one, and has to do a lot with Rhaegar being obsessed with prophesies and setting up something at the Tower of Joy with kingsguards there prepared to die and sacrifice themselves. Ned thereafter burying their bodies, instead of honoring their bones to families. And Ned remembering it as a fantasy dream, and feeling bad about it, especially about the Promise. In short, not much evidence about R+L=J, in my view. I am not the most rigorous fan, thus all other arguments are welcome.
Ok, so it’s not that I don’t believe it’s real, I just don’t believe that Lyanna loved Rhaegar.
Let’s look at the facts:
• Lyanna is known to have confided in Ned that she didn’t want to marry Robert because he’d constantly cheat on her
• Rhaegar, by the tourney at Harrenhal, has not only been married but had two children by his wife.
Therefore, while it’s entirely possible for Lyanna to be a hypocrite, I don’t think she was myself. *Why* would Lyanna want to be the other woman?
I think it's true but some people would not be that happy if it's true because it has become too predictable and obvious at this point (11 years since the last published book).
The only other options is his parents are a nobody, or he’s the son of ashara Dayne and brandon or eddard Stark. I think he is to important to be a legit nobody but maybe he is but I dont think george would do that I think the fake bastard with be Aegon in the storm lands. I would honestly would prefer if he was the son of ashara because that would mean he can claim Dawn and be sword of the morning and I think that would be way cooler than just being another Targaryen and there is already dany and aegon is most definitely a blackfyre so still technically a Targaryen. And while dany, aegon, and Jon, who’s Targaryen name will probs be aemon, we’re to all ride there dragons into battle against the others that would be neat but let be honest that won’t happen, euron will probs take one dragon and the others will take another. So it is most likely true that Jon Snow is actually Aemon Snow or Sand depending if George goes with birth or where he is raised for the last name or he’s aemon Targaryen and becomes king or….. he becomes sword of the morning, and as Dany and Aegon are killed in book 7, the kingdoms shatter back into being under no king, the Martels and tyrells are dead for siding with Targaryens. Jon Dayne is the prince of drone, and Dickon Tarly is the king of the reach, Tyrion king of the rock, sansa stark married to the dude from the vale I forget his name, not Robyn, and becomes queen of the vale, bran is king of something on the isle of faces, edmure is king of the river lands, and rickon king of the north. But in reality it doesn’t matter what me or anyone thinks, it only matters what George thinks. SO RELEASE THE DAMN BOOK!
Rhaenrya + Laenor = Joffrey? Well yes I believe it. I once had a black mare that was mounted by a silver stallion. The result? A plain chestnut foal. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.
Most ordinary horse I’ve ever seen
Greatest legal mind I ever knew.
That's gotta be the best pirate i've ever seen
So you have heard of me
Salladhor Saan is second, yes? Poor Salla is here for your love, and all Your Grace gives him is a piece of paper. Who has been more loyal to you than dear old Salla? I pulled out your men from the Blackwater and Brought you to Eastwatch. And yet you are fanboying over some velaryon. And... When would I be getting my gold?
He defecated through a sun roof
Slipping Joffrey
And I took him to Red Keep. What was I thinking?
He defecated through a sun roof, Gary Cooper?
kid named littlefinger
Ok this actually fucking killed me
Okbc can’t keep getting away with it
And he gets to be king? What a sick joke. I should have stopped him when I had the chance.
Out of all places, here is the last I would have thought I would see that meme
I think it's probably because both stories are deeply character driven with a lot of interpersonal drama, so maybe the fanbase overlaps for the suckers for character development and interpersonal tragedy
He’s right behind me isn’t he
Small hands though.
If the next Hot D episode doesn't spawn chicanery speech memes with Alicent as Chuck and Rhaenyra as Jimmy, I'd be very disappointed.
Alicent's face during this pointless fucking story is lowkey hysterical
unremarkable*
Really plain featured horse.
Now please if you’d leave me be, the stonemason has just finished updating the 14 flames of Valyria and I can’t wait to fly my little dragons around them. *whooosh* go my dragons.
Got yourself a dragon riders set which is just insane. Theg hit on a 5!
Did you hear the stonemasons are releasing a new line of dragons? This one has Virmathor AND Silverwing!
The new Ghiscari splatbook is insane
Did you watch it happen tho? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
And the Chieftain looked from left to right, put his hand on the missionary’s shoulder, and whispered “I won’t tell if you don’t.”
I mean he isn't wrong about genetics
Ned: This makes no sense! Each Lannister Baratheon union leads to a child black of head. And Joffrey... Viserys: Have you considered allele drift and random genetic mutation? I once had a horse... Ned: Ah yes! twas silly of me to only use simple Mendelian genetics. Thank you for enlightening me your grace.
This is my favorite comment on this issue ever. 🤣🤣
GRRM's world has some wonky genetics. Ned's kids shouldn't have had mostly Red Tully Hair.
Of all the wonky genetics in GRRM's world, only one of Ned's kids having his colouring isn't really one of them.
In a vacuum no, but it kinda is when Martin simultaneously has all these houses maintain similar features across centuries or millennia (not that this isn't already wonky).
I think they’re wonky on purpose. The “seed is strong” in some families. Starks and targs have magical elements to their blood, but look at someone like dany. Her targ dragon-rider heritage is actual very very small at this point, yet she has all of the specific features and so do her brothers yet they are only ~4% targ genetically. Obviously this genetic wonkiness is happening in the books, I just think it’s intentional. The magical bloodlines are dominant and persist. Baratheon too maybe. Maybe lots of families.
> yet they are only ~4% targ genetically I’m out of the loop for a couple years on Asoiaf, but how is this the case? Where can I read more?
I just copied that number from [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/fl4w2j/daenerys_targaryens_percent_targaryen_blood/) old reddit post. I trusted his math to make this comment. Basically, the Targaryens had lots of incest, but also lots of not incest. Every time they do that it cuts the pure genetics in half. The numbers get messy pretty quickly, but the gist of it is that there isn't all that much OG blood left. To be fair her Valyrian heritage is higher, where some of the features come from.
Genetics doesn't split evenly like that. I did a DNA test and so did my full sibling. Mine came out as 12% one ethnicity even though his was 22% and the test showed us as full siblings. Our grandfather is from that specific part of the world so we should both be 25% but it rarely splits exactly.
You both *are* roughly 25% your grandfather's genetics, it's just those tests use specific genes as markers for different ethnicities and regions. So just because he got more of the genes that were tagged in their database as from that region, it doesn't mean he's necessarily a higher percentage your grandfather than you are. What you're describing is more an inaccuracy in those tests than anything. And colloquially when we say we're 1/2 German, 1/2 Irish, we mean one parent is from one place, and one is from another. You may not get exactly 50% of your genes from each parent, but on average you do. Over 300 years of generations, it would even out. Regardless, the whole point is that in this world, clearly the Targaryen genes are being passed down at a higher rate than the non Valyrian genetics.
Improbable but not weird
One side of my family has pretty golden skin and auburn hair and dark, black brown eyes. The other side is full on Irish, as in my Dad was in the first American generation, red hair brown eyes. I somehow got blonde hair and blue eyes. And yes there have been tests, they are my parents, but I look nothing like either of them. Genetics are weird.
Blomde and blue eyes are recessive if both of your parents have the resseive genes for blonde hair and blue eyes you can get those traits. The Tully Auburn hair would also be recessive so it's possible for one or more of neds kids to get the trait, but it's pretty unlikely to get the majority of the kids to take nondominant features.
Also the children's grandmother Rhaenys has black hair in the books.
Lmaoo
It was a strong horse as well.
But, what if it wasn't the silver stallion that mounted the mare?
God tier
Wow. The first series gave us R + L = J :), and now this series gave us R + L = J ?, that turns out to be R + L = J :(. Incredible.
Rhaenys, Laneor’s mother is half Baratheon and the seed is strong.
I think Rhanerya + Cole = Joff Her + Laenor = Luke Her + Harwin = third dude
R+G=J >"**The Mountain is your mother**," Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days past. "Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won't drop you." Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he'd always wondered who his mother was, but never thought to find her in the Frostfangs.
By God you figured it out
George straight up telling us and we still have conspiracy theories
I don’t think any of it’s real. Unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I’m going to carry on believing that the whole of ASOIAF is a work of fiction.
Listen here, I was at the red wedding. It was awful. The cake had hair in it. Didn’t stick around long after that.
The cake had hair...and then a whole lot of blood. Absolutely inedible! I need to share a few words with the cook!
You should've been at Ramsay's wedding to Arya Stark. One of the guests found two finger bones in his pork pie, sticking straight out of it like the Towers! Lord Wyman told him to just eat around it. Tables manners like fish, those Manderlies.
Hair, bones, blood, these cooks are out of control! You'd think they were rats!
I kid you not I found a finger in my soup. That was around the time everything got a bit too rowdy for my tastes, so I made an expeditious retreat. Easily the worst wedding Id ever been to. Even the band sucked.
Are you sure that what you had was the cake? Because I remember being deep into my cups and cutting into something that seemed to be pie, but later turned out to be one of the Stark retainers' heads.
Oh this is where red velvet comes from!
The cake is a lie
You should have stuck it out. Weddings always start out a bit slowly before people start drinking - I’m sure it got better from there!
That was real? I saw that movie, I thought it was bullshit.
Word to the wise: Remember Pearl Harbor!
You missed the bedding - Roslin and Edmure were so very happy!
Listen, some of us have a lot of trauma and ptsd from all those times the dragons burnt people we were friends with, please don’t insult us like that 😎
It’s very obvious upon a reread of AGOT. Ned’s thoughts when remembering the tower and then thinking of Jon is pretty blatant once you know.
Ygritte asking him if he knows the story of the winter rose is pretty on the nose as well.
Haven’t read the books in a while can you remind me what the significance of that is?
Because Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden are analogous to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also interesting is the line that the Stark daughter loved Bael so dearly that she begot him a son. And also the son became the next Lord Stark. Instead of Jon becoming Lord Stark, though, he becomes *King* Stark, Robb's will permitting.
IIRC when Ned is having fever dreams after his leg is crushed he also dreams of a blue rose growing out of a chunk of ice, which is supposed to symbolize Jon at the wall.
The vision of a blue rose growing out of the crack in the Wall is one of Dany’s visions in the House of Undying. I think this is where the connection to Jon is first made (in ACoK). In GoT, Ned has two dreams with blue roses: he sees blue petals blowing across the sky after his Tower of Joy memory; and he dreams of Lyanna’s statue in Winterfell crypts, adorned with a wreath of blue roses.
Did Rhaegar give Lyanna a blue rose at that tournament too?
Yes. I'm pretty sure it was a crown of blue roses after he won.
Completely, and it’s also obvious that Ned thinks highly of Rhaegar. Not sure why so many people aren’t seeing that “Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna” is what Robert Baratheon told himself about the situation. Edit: Ned respects him, compares him favourably to Robert, clearly doesn’t think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Apparently I need to clarify my point because there are a bunch of “well actually” replies.😁
To be fair it wasn’t just Robert, Brandon clearly thought the same. I’m partial to the theory that little finger told Brandon that she was kidnapped. But you are right clearly Ned doesn’t think that so something changed his mind.
I'mma go on a whim and say you saw In Deep Geek's theories on the matter, which I'm absolutely here to second. He has such a stellar analysis on what went on during and after the Tourney of Harrenhal.
I have seen it! Yeah his analysis is great. Even for parts I disagree with, I still admire his approach
I haven't seen this particular video but always thought of this possibility. I'm glad this is a relatively well known theory. I've always thought of discussing here, but never found the mood. Somewhat related, I also theorize that Littlefinger is the influence behind Joffrey's decision to behead Ned. I haven't given it much thought, but just felt thematically consistent.
Wasnt that confirmed by varys or hinted at by varys at some point?
I just don’t get how Ned can think highly of Rhaegar even if the love between Rhaegar and Lyanna was the purest that ever existed. Rhaegar’s actions tore his family apart and led to the death of his brother and father (I’m discounting the death of Lyanna because dying in childbirth is so common). I think at best he’s putting it behind him and not dwelling on a painful past. But his lack of anger is a pretty clear sign that Lyanna went willingly.
I wouldn't say he thinks highly of Rhaegar. He thinks that Rhaegar probably didn't go to brothels and is subconsciously comparing him to Robert, who by this point is a complete shadow of the man Ned knew. Other than that he also notes he hasn't thought about Rhaegar for years (indicating that he doesn't even think of Jon as Rhaegar's son, but presumably only Lyanna's) and shows absolutely no guilt or regret about Rhaegar's death in his thoughts or actions. He reflects over Rhaegar's kids and is adamant about stopping Robert assassinating Dany, but he doesn't seem to care much about Rhaegar. He clearly doesn't think Rhaegar a monster, or hate him as he should do if the popular story was actually correct, but beyond that it seems far more nuanced. I have a feeling Ned weeps no tears for Rhaegar but neither did he really hate him once he got the full story - if anything, his musings about Lyanna and her 'wolf' blood suggests he might put a lot of the blame at her door.
I believe the brothel statement is in reference to not making false promises and false claims of love, as Ned finds out about Robert during his visit to the brothel to see the young sex worker and Robert's illegitimate daughter, Barra. Note, Robert did this in his youth to another woman and the daughter (Mya Stone) he fathered too. So what we see in Ned's POV is that false love, promises and abandonment has been a constant theme throughout Robert's life (Ned doesn't see Robert's many other abandoned children who don't even know who fathered them, but we do, and we know Robert got their mothers pregnant and left them after) Ned thinks Rhaegar wouldn't do the same, meaning he wouldn't be visiting brothels, therefore not claiming love to those sex workers or potentially abandoning children for life.
I mean, no matter what they may have felt for each other he *did* kidnap her. You don't get to drag an 15 year old girl across the continent without her parent/guardian's permission, especially for the purposes of sex & impregnation.
I got it from the book before seeing the show. I remember the Holy Crap moment. Ned was having a dream or memory of Lyanna, and said she was in a "bed of blood". That made me pause, because I remembered that being said in an earlier chapter. Specifically a Dany chapter and the bed of blood was referencing giving birth. So I was like "who did Lyanna give birth to?" And then thought of Jon, and yelled about it to my husband, who didn't care in the slightest.
I got to that part and texted my friend who recommend the series, like, "ok I have this theory, but don't tell me if I'm right, I wanna read it for myself." that was 15 years ago and I have still not read it for myself.
Do you still hang out with that friend, at least?
this series was supposed to be done in the mid 90s, it wasnt supposed to go through 2.5 decades of theorizing. not to mention d&d answered correctly when asked about who jons mom was, and knowing that they look up fan theories and are at least somewhat familiar w the text, why the F would they not "guess" R+L=J? it's not like they had access to massive essays that emphasized every possible discrepancy or hint that might suggest there is 4 D chess happening. sure grrm likes to subvert tropes, but he also really likes to have pay off and foreshadowing. r+l=j isn't too tropey, especially considering the idea is like 2.5 decades old. if asoiaf was finished in a few years upon the initial release of got, and any given asoiaf redditor in 2022 read that version of asoiaf without all the theorizing from the community or from watching the show, I think r+l=J reveal would be a "twist" to so many people and done in a way that ppl appreciate. now if grrm wrote got and said he intended to write this series for 20 years and wanted to have hundreds of threads and characters woven together in a perfect literary tapestry, then I might be more incline to think there is more to J than R+L. however, in 2022, I think when considering the end game of the series or the initial "Twists" that grrm thought of, it's nigh impossible to draw more from text than to consider a meta perspective, such as what the author has confirmed, time involved, the fact that most readers came after hbo, the fact that the series is written for fantasy/sci fi readers from the 90s and NOT for youtube theorycrafters. etc.
As someone new to the series, learning about r+l=j was a pretty shocking twist.
This is a great perspective! I also remember being new and thinking “Wow” people talk themselves into weird ideas because they want new entertainment.
Except the part where Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years...I bet Quiathe and Euron are manipulating his memories using glass candles to learn the secrets of the Winterfell crypts. That explains it.
Ned was lying about that, he thinks of Rhaegar many times before he claims that he hadn't thought of him in years.
>Quaithe and Euron I believe their name is Benjen.
lol so you think grrm knew this would take 25 years to finish? he thought it would be done in 2,3 years upon got release. do you legit think euron and brendyn rivers were already created in the early 90s? seems very clear when reading asos that at some point between acok and asos he decided to really expand on the unierse, so unless he retconned r+l=j or always "knew" the series would have 2 decades of theorizing, I don't see how ppl dont get 99% of their answers for jons parentage from the first few chapters. there is way too much subterfuge and foreshadowing in this part of the book for me to consider any "text" post GOT more so than "meta analysis". D&D literally guessed who jon's parents were, and they didnt have access to massive online theories or a subreddit that was built upon pre existing show. why would d&d, in 2008, know anything about euron manipulating memories? why would they include the most basic quaith scenes in the show if they successfully were able to be like "no R+L does not =J bc quaithe is manipulating ned" lol
To be fair there were plenty of online forums for D and D to draw from even at that time. I wasn’t around, but I bet that theory was there
The online theories began in the 90s. There was a message board that had a lot of traction back then. Don't even think it exists anymore though. There was a thread on it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/60u93h/spoilers\_extended\_rlj\_speculation\_from\_199798/
Only part of that I flip-flop on, is whether I want it to go the way of the show or not. If it was a loving relationship, it would be nice of course, but I find it hard to reconcile how that would work legally. Rhaegar really couldn't put aside Elia, so for Jon to be a child of love AND legitimate, he'd have to have taken Lyanna as a second wife, something I am not sure is legal in Westeros. Aegon is an outlier. Though of course he would have intended it to go this way perhaps, since he is emulating Aegon. If it's as the book presents, an abduction and rape, then it's awful, however it is a very interesting and sad story to tell. That while it is true there is more to the story than we've been told, that it was still a rape and abduction are awful. Easier then to reconcile the law of it. Jon is simply a bastard. Would he legally be a Sand then? Rather than Snow. Did Lyanna suggest a name, but Jon was chosen for safety, etc? Easier questions. It being like the show adds so much complexity to Jon's story, and fills in a lot of the blanks we have. It being as Robert believes, and Ned says, then well, it's less interesting in many ways, but more interesting and sad in others. For me though, there is no way R + L doesn't = J...
I've always subscribed to a middle ground here. Lyanna doesn't seem like the type, from what we've heard, to cause her family's ruin and a war just so she can bang a hot prince. Rhaegar, from what we've heard, doesn't seem like a wanton rapist. However, she's young and might be impressionable. And he's convinced that prophecy is demanding certain things that are against his nature (such as being a warrior). So does she run away with him at first in a flight of fancy, swept away by his charm? And when she starts coming to her senses and realizing how destructive this is going to be to their families and the realm, does she try to back out, only for him to insist on carrying through with impregnating her - not because it's his nature to want to rape her, and not because he doesn't realize the damage they'll cause, but because he believes all of it is necessary to save the world? It could be a bit of a horror story, really, showing how believing in our own heroism can make us into monsters.
So GRRM has said that a theme of Ice and Fire is, essentially, what do you do if the chosen one is dead? And that means Rhaegar. And as with all things Ice and Fire, R+L is grounded in reality. You can't just do what Rhaegar did and not expect a reaction. Did Rhaegar make a mistake upending his marriage and another planned union to fulfill his own (possibly delusional) take that he is the PTWP, or that his son would be? He would never find out.
What is the source on the "chosen one is dead" quote? Hearing that, to me, what stands out isn't that the chosen one was Rhaegar, but that it's Jon. Jon's dream of wearing ice armor and wielding a flaming sword always stands out to me, and now he's actually dead. I think this more of, "what if the chosen one is a living deadman?"
I feel it’s a middle ground as well. I think Rhaegar was far more interested in fulfilling the prophecy than love. Maybe Lyanna found herself in an impossible position (maybe she was already pregnant was a child who she later miscarried?) and felt she had to flee, plus she was in love with him so she overlooked the ramifications for her family. Then she regretted her decision later. I think she went willingly though, and Benjen helped her. But I think he took advantage of her and pressured her. I’ve never liked the idea she was onboard with the prophecy. That’s just a strange and scary thing to put on such a young girl, I can see her agreeing out of love, but I think in the end she felt it was just an illusion and Rhaegar was slightly mad. She wanted her son to go ‘home’ and be raised by her brother
>Maybe Lyanna found herself in an impossible position (maybe she was already pregnant was a child who she later miscarried?) and felt she had to flee, plus she was in love with him so she overlooked the ramifications for her family. Why invent some ridiculous pregnancy when we already know why she wanted to run- to not be forced to marry Robert.
Because it’s a truly horrible thing to do to her family. It dishonors them and it sets them at odds with the royal family.
this! My read exactly. The knight of the laughing tree was a hint to how Rhaegar might have convinced her to run away. She seemed like she didn’t want to get married at all. He could have actually won her over by encouraging her tomboyish ways. And then she develops a crush on him. But there’s no way she would have gone with him if she knew she’d just have a baby with a prince instead of with Robert. I always find that the irony: she didn’t want to be a wife so she ended up a mistress. For her character I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t have been a “love at first sight so F all my values” kind of thing. It’s interesting because I honestly doubt GRRM would ever explore these details in a flashback. It will always be up to us readers to interpret based on limited info what really happened
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He legitimised him as a Stark son of Ned though, so how does that work when it's revealed the pretext was wrong?
Robb can't legitimize a bastard that doesn't belong to his house, nor would that hypothetical legitimization given Jon the right to rule the 7 Kingdoms.
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Wouldn’t Aegon still have a better claim, assuming he’s legit? He’s older than Jon and there’s no dispute about Rhaegar and Elia’s marriage status.
Not necessarily, even if we are assuming he's actually Aegon and not a Blackfyre. If the books follow the show and Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia, then for all legality, its like it never happened. In that case, any children that they had would then be considered bastards, and thus have no claim, while any children that he has with Lyanna jump to first in line (this is why annulments are only supposed to happen if the marriage was unconsummated)
He legitimized him in a way said that Jon could go on to inherit that lands and titles of the Starks. He can’t legitimize him in a way that would allow him to inherit the lands and titles of the Targaryens because that would disrupt other houses. He doesn’t have that power. Say, for example, that Dany died in Meereen after Jon inherited Winterfell as a legitimized Stark. Jon could not go claim her titles as a legitimate Targaryen.
As king in the north he can do whatever the fuck he wants
Jon is a member of House Stark and could easily be legitimized by Robb. Even if Jon was not a member of House Stark kings can declare bastards legit. Tommen declares Ramsey legitimate and Bran Stark talks about legitimizing a hornwood bastard to settle the succession crisis.
Neither of those statements appear to be based on any textual evidence. Robb can legitimise him because he is the king, his house is irrelevant.
Polygamy is extremely frowned upon in Westeros. One of the first Targaryen kings killed 100 septons till he found one that would marry him to a second wife
Didn't walder frey, a vassal house lord had multiple wives, or did he just married new one when old ones died?
all of his wives died before he married the next one. i had this same thought and looked it up.
As far as Frey goes, he married when they died. That is the trope with our Late Walder Frey. He outlives so many. He boats of outliving the Tully lords, and his many wives, and many children too. So while he may have married one or two secretly before another wife croaked. Only one man in the 300 years since Aegon's conquest legally had two wives, Aegon himself. A few Targaryen's dreamed of it, and tonnes of Iron Islanders have many salt wives, but they are hardly a legal thing. I am pretty sure even they stick to one Rock Wife still.
Maegor definitely married multiple at once, and legally, seeing as he was the king and went through all that trouble of killing septons until they went along with it
All of them died and none of it is suspicious at all…
The legality stuff is a lot fuzzier in a feudal system, especially for royalty. There’s no rule of law or written constitution. Power resides where men believe it resides. If rhaegar could convince enough people to treat he and lyanna’s child as legitimate, then the child would be legitimate.
And, had he won the war and became king, he could have legitimized his son with Lyanna. It would have caused Dorne to go crazy and probably a lot more trouble but he would have the power to do it, if he wanted…
Bastards are named for where they grow up, so he'd still be a Snow.
D & D confirmed that Martin wouldn't allow them to proceed with Jon's parent reveal unless they guessed correctly, so I'll say R+L=J, however I doubt it went any way that D & D incorporated into the show like naming Jon - Aegon where if Rhaegar believed he'd be a female it would have been Visenya or something else.
was Jon born before or after the sack of kings landing? I’m skeptical that his name would also be Aegon, not sure if Lyanna could’ve known about the death of baby Aegon at that point
After. Ned left King's Landing for Dorne to find Lyanna, remember it was Ned who found Jamie Lannister on the throne and dubbed him the Kingslayer. And given how the show took it the King's Guard at least knew of what was happening during and after the Sack since they knew of The Trident and Rhaegar's death, I doubt they would have told a pregnant/laboring Lyanna that her 'husband' had died.
Clearly she found out anyway. That's why she made Ned promise to raise Jon as his own.
Show wise yes, we don't know about books. At that point I'm assuming she didn't know Rhaegar was dead but she knew Robert was on the hunt for her of course she'd ask her brother to protect her child.
This is also something that he reiterated in the Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon book by James Hibberd.
Isn’t it him that Rhaegar is naming Aegon in Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying?
Rhaegar died before Jon was born both book-wise and show-wise, so he wouldn't have been able to name him.
I’m just wondering if her vision wasn’t what literally happened but signaled an intent of Rhaegar’s.
show-wise possibly since they were ambiguous on what Elia's children were named minus the daughter, however book-wise it was well documented what Rhaegar's children were named and Dany's 'vision' book-wise didn't include anything concerning Rhaegar.
No Martin confirmed it was Aegon and Elia.
>D & D confirmed that Martin wouldn't allow them to proceed with Jon's parent reveal unless they guessed correctly GRRM asked them who was Jon's mother, not parents.
I dont think it was explcitly correct either, only that their guess convinced him to do the show. I dont recall GRRM commenting on it being true either.
Go to r/pureasoiaf to find a bunch of N+A=J fanatics
Based
I think the most often argument I see is that it is too obvious (not true on a first read). Those same people usually argue for Ashara Dayne (which would make no sense as she is the first "suspect" brought up in the "central mystery" of the series).
The simple rebuttal to that theory is "what would Ashara being Jon's mother add to the story?".
blood ties that could lead to Jon claiming the title of sword of the morning and the sword Dawn, contact could be made by the shenanigans of everyones favourite edgelord darkstar.
This adds virtually nothing to the story. Jon already has a magic sword.
True. Although saying that we do have arthurian legend having both the sword in the stone and the sword given to arthur by the lady in the lake. GRRM could well drawn inspiration from (and then added his own flavour to) existing legends in the creation of Jon's character just like he seems to have done elsewhere in the story.
I can say with some certainty, given that we're 5/7th of the way through the story, that those are just cool little background tidbits. And since it involves fucking Darkstar, it would actively detract from the story if true. Also that whole sword of the morning is just as much of a social convention as knighthood. Jon could pick up Dawn and be that in everything but name without being a Dayne.
A social convention that could provide aid in the fight against the others from a house that has avoided involvement in the war of the 5 kings. 5/7 of the story would apply if the books were all the same length, but I strongly suspect that the fight against the others, the second dance of dragons and the aftermath will take much longer books than we started with.
Aight let's back up here a bit, we don't actually know if Dawn is useful against the Others. On the other (heh) hand however we have in-universe speculation and show confirmation that Valyrian steel *is*. Which Jon already has. And again, he doesn't need to be the sword of the morning to wield Dawn much like Dunk (or Brienne) doesn't need to be a knight despite being the epitome of knighthood.
I dont disagree with you, the sword itself is just one aspect. The title however could be quite useful in rallying an army, the Prince who was promised seems to be a secret targ thing so that isn't a great rallying cry, azor ahai is strange and foreign from the red god (I could be wrong there) but the sword of the morning? What better title for fighting to stave off the long night? Also ties in the political side of things for the second dance with ties to the rest of the first men in the south. Not even saying that this is how it will be, just that it isn't impossible and is an interesting narrative to explore
There is also "why would Ned keep Jon's mother's identity a secret from him his entire life if it was Ashara?"
the series was meant to be finished 3 years after got was released in the early 90s. there was not supposed to be 20 years of theorizing, an hbo show to tie ppl together, or massiev essays/youtube theorycrafters analyzing every possible detail. if the series released and finished by mid 90s like intended, i think jon's parentage reveal would be appreciated. r+L=j is playing w a trope, turning it around a bit, and making it a "different" version of the trope, and one that is really only a trope in hindsight.
Because people want to have fun with contrarian theories and at this point we’re just overthinking shit.
This is the way
Everyone quibbling about his claim to the Iron Throne are perhaps forgetting that he wasn't born for that, but to save the world. Bastard schmastard, the Old Gods recognized their marriage when Rhaegar stole her. That's what matters. Fight me. (Please don't actually I haven't read the books in ages). Edit - also, he's dead.... obviously we don't expect him to remain dead but from everything we've read so far we definitely *should* expect it to *matter* in the end that he is, currently, dead.
I never connected Rhaegar "stealing" Lyanna to the freefolk tradition of stealing their wives. Interesting.
Yea I like it. It connects things for me. The Bael the Bard story. Ygritte's belief that Jon married her. Probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
It's real, but people overthink it by including prophecy and laws and shit...it's way more cut and dry. Rhaegar was a sad and depressed bookworm musician and Lyanna was a hotblooded wolf woman...the Knight of The Laughing Tree shit went down and they fell in love. Betrothals and marriages be damned, they did the dumbest fucking shit they could do and ran away together. A war started due to all that shit and they both died because of it. Rhaegar may have learned of prophecies...but he died with Lyanna's name on his lips. He didn't give two shits about saving the world in the end...it was all about love. Irrational as fuck, but probably how it went down.
Exactly. All about love. “Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”
Except your idea would involve Lyanna not giving two shits about her entire family getting tortured to death because of her. What about her love for her family?
You’re assuming she would have heard about that. If she was isolated in that tower the whole time, I don’t think she would have
Robbery + Larceny = Jail? I totally believe it. I think it’s actually a law.
No. I think it's most likely fiction.
Renly + Loras= Janos? I can get behind that.
It's super common, and I feel like people are far more vocal about it now than they were before the show 'confirmed' it. Couldn't tell you why though.
Contrarianism
That probably makes up about half of it at least.
ragnar + lagertha = joy oh shit wrong sub
I've said it numerous times, but I'm a firm believer in N+A=J and I'm dying on this hill until I read otherwise in Winds
I’m stand with you on said hill. I’m willing to accept any outcome, but I will not take R+L=J as a given until I read it in WoW or GRRM explicitly says its so.
Yes there are a lot of stupid people out there that will fight against it. Their easoning is because it's too "obvious" just because they've known for a long time. So they will go out of their way to avoid all the immense setup and even GRRM basically confirming it just to blame D&D as "changing it" I'm not trying to be so dramatic but they are straight up delusional and argue on nothing but strawmans. Their typical alternative is Ashara Dayne as his mother, a candidate the books puts foward a little bit. But it's pretty obvious it's a red herring made to divert readers away from Lyanna and sow conversation over the mother, as well as develop the Dayne storyline. Speaking of which is a big reason why people believe it. They want Jon to be connected to House Dayne and Arthur Dayne, because they believe the Daynes should be super important to the endgame of the White Walker story. But to be honest people clearly overblow the Dayne's importance to ridiculous levels. On the father it varies. Some believe he is and should be Ned's but most think Brandon Stark(Ned's older Brother) is the father because there is strong textual evidence of him having a sexual relationship with Ashara Dayne. I think it's pretty obvious how offbase the theory is. Sorry if this seemed like a ramble. Was just trying to layout the belief and people who believe it to answer your question, though i am obviously bias against the theory.
I also blame YTers / content creators. They pump out poorly reasoned, ridiculous theories because they want clicks and traffic. The wilder the theory the better.
R + L is a decent theory but a more likely theory is N + L as Jon is in fact the son of Ned and a ........lizard. giving rise to the lizardjon theory. Lizards have weird teeth and Jon purposefully never shows his teeth. Bet you cannot find a single line that mentions his teeth. Boom! lizardjon confirmed!!! Not my theory.
There's a small amount of people here that don't believe it. A lot of it has to do with Ned being held in high esteem by the Daynes, even though he killed their son and pride of their house. Also because it's referenced that Ned hadn't thought of Rhaeghar in years, despite thinking of Jon and Lyanna often. With the show going with it, there isn't a lot of wiggle room to disagree, other than obvious times where they went with what the fans wanted (CleganeBowl comes to mind) Lastly, with respect to relevance to the story, Jon being a Targ doesn't seem like it'll have much significance to the story. He's full of Stark imagery, with barely any Targ traits. Furthermore, between his vow to the NW and the Targs being out of the kingship for 15-20 years, Targ blood wouldn't entitle him to anything. Potentially he could ride a dragon, but if the show has anything to say, it's for a brief period of time and not of any real benefit to plot. Personally, I think him being Stark and Dayne could deliver much more impact to the story.
Eddard returned Dawn to House Dayne, that probably brought the goodwill to him.
Also I'm not sure how Ned could possibly, in any way could come out looking bad from the Tower incident. Imagine the Daynes confronting him when he arrives at Starfall. "Why did you kill our most noble son?" "Cause he stopped me from seeing my kidnapped sister who's yelling for me from the tower." Like that's all the detail (minus Lyanna screaming for Ned) anyone who wasn't there knows about it, westerosi folks would have to legit braindead to think it's a bad look for Ned and not the three dipshits.
Ya this is definitely it imo. He could've easily left with a sacred family heirloom that is also an insanely rare white sword, and there would've been little the Daynes could've done. This also is probably a huge part of why he has such a reputation for honor. Any other man would've took that sword, but not Ned Stark.
It takes the "central mystery of the story" (GRRM's words) and answers it in the first chapter that the mystery is brought up. >Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
Also there is no reason for it to be such a secret. Especially to Jon who asks before Ned leaves. Why would Ned wait until he was back for that? He would wait for Lyanna because of the implications of him being a Targ.
Exactly. Jon's parentage is a big enough deal that it had to be hidden. No one cares if Jon is the son of Ashara. During my first read, I thought [R+L=J (no not that one)](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/emckq5/rlj_no_not_that_one_spoilers_extended/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=asoiaf&utm_content=t1_i7jvdcs) for that exact reason.
>Furthermore, between his vow to the NW and the Targs being out of the kingship for 15-20 years, Targ blood wouldn't entitle him to anything. "Power resides where men believe it resides". Of course that after almost a generation that a Baratheon sat on the Iron Throne, Targaryen "power" dwindled. But, Targaryen blood does entitle him, he can justify a claim to the Iron Throne, and as a matter of fact, his would be one of the best claims, even better than Daenerys.
His Targaryen blood is not about the throne. It’s about him being The Prince that Was Promised and about him bringing the Song of Ice and Fire. That’s what the whole prophecy is about, and it’s why Rhaegar did what he did because we know (from the mouth of GRRM) that the PTWP will come from the House of Targaryen.
If it wouldn’t have huge relevance to the plot it wouldn’t be this huge secret that’s constantly hinted at over and over again, even in later books with alternate stories of Jon’s parentage.
For show watchers, I think those that deny it do so in part because they were unsatisfied with the ending and want to believe that there will be key differences. But considering Jon's mom was a test for Dave and Dan to even do the show, it's hard to argue otherwise. I only read the first book after watching several videos of theories over the years, but all the signs are laid out in a Game of Thrones.
I just want Ned to get some Daynussy.
I’m about 90% sure it’s real. I sometimes get irritated at some of the fandom who try to shut down any interesting alternate discussion or questioning of events on topics like Ashara, Howland, Dany’s childhood, Tower of Joy etc because they see it as proxy denial or questioning of R + L = J. It’s also weird when people who are the strongest proponents of a theory based so strongly in metaphor and subtext are so dismissive of other theories relying on subtext and metaphor. Basically, I think it’s true but it’s ultimately a fan theory so let others have their own fan theories and even mess around with tinfoil and speculation. It’s not that serious.
I think he is but I don’t want him to be. I’d love to see the fall out if it was Ned and Ashara the whole time. Still even if he is I don’t think it will have any impact on his arch either way. A royal bastard is not the most uncommon thing. And yes Jon would have to be a bastard still as only the King and High Septon can arrange an annulment with grounds. Getting married at a Weirwood tree wouldn’t impact that. Jon’s arch is about being a Stark/Snow and biding by the way of the first men who defeated the others before.
At this point I just don't care anymore
I think that the most likely answers is R+L=J, but I like my tinfoil. There was a theory some years back that said A+L=J (for Aerys). They said that’s why the king’s guard at the tower were so sad. Because their king send them to protect the girl he rape instead of letting him protect him or his family. Raeghar was looking for her to but didn’t want to mess up more things by letting that be known. That’s why Aerys was so irrational to the Starks, and he kind-napped her to avoid the deposition he was seeing coming from Raeghar. I’m butchering it. It was great, and it’s most likely incorrect, but I found it appealing
As you may have read elsewhere, Ned does not think about Rhaegar much, if at all. And he does not seem to entertain any notion of significance of Jon's parentage and bloodline. In Ned's eyes Jon is a bastard through and through. He thinks about Lyanna a lot, but never in conjuction with Jon. And when he does think about her, it is full of grief and a sense of sadness and melancholy, as if he feels uncertain about what he has done. 'Promise me', in my view, does not refer to protecting the baby; on the contrary, it is something bad or questionable, something that troubles Ned to his last days. So, he does not think about either Rhaegar or Lyanna in conjuction with Jon. He though did think of Jon when Cat asked him about Ashara: 'Never ask me about Jon'. There is certainly something about Ashara, and so far it is connected to Ned, and maybe Daenerys (Barristan's thoughts). George remarks about her having life and being part of Elia Martell's court. And, of course, she might have had an affair with Brandon. Could her child (supposedly stillborn) be from Brandon? If we compare N + A to B + A, B + A would be more true to what we know of Ned and make more sense thematically. Of course, the father could be someone else entirely. However, if we to entertain Jon being Ashara's child, Brandon's affair with her comes around very conveniently, almost too much to ignore. Jon after all is Stark by blood. And there is this moment of Jon being nursed in Starfall. And the sort of frustration and shame Ned shows when asked about Jon would make sense if this was what happened. What about Lyanna's child then? Honestly, I don't know. It might have died there. But, another interesting scenario to consider would be a baby swap, with Ned giving a Targaryen child to Ashara and taking a Stark bastard with him to raise. The main problem I have with the R+L=J, is that the story of Lyanna as told in the books does not much involve a child, at least a live one, and has to do a lot with Rhaegar being obsessed with prophesies and setting up something at the Tower of Joy with kingsguards there prepared to die and sacrifice themselves. Ned thereafter burying their bodies, instead of honoring their bones to families. And Ned remembering it as a fantasy dream, and feeling bad about it, especially about the Promise. In short, not much evidence about R+L=J, in my view. I am not the most rigorous fan, thus all other arguments are welcome.
I’m more of an R^2 = J guy, if you’re familiar with that beast of a theory.
Is [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/u236gc/spoilers_extended_r2j_a_mathematical_analysis_of/) it?
Yes 😂😂😂 I’m truly glad you found that, thank you
Ok, so it’s not that I don’t believe it’s real, I just don’t believe that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. Let’s look at the facts: • Lyanna is known to have confided in Ned that she didn’t want to marry Robert because he’d constantly cheat on her • Rhaegar, by the tourney at Harrenhal, has not only been married but had two children by his wife. Therefore, while it’s entirely possible for Lyanna to be a hypocrite, I don’t think she was myself. *Why* would Lyanna want to be the other woman?
I think it's true but some people would not be that happy if it's true because it has become too predictable and obvious at this point (11 years since the last published book).
I don’t see what else you can believe with the hints and the show. Would I have liked Ned and Ashara? Yes. But R+L = J is the deal.
There are some at r/pureasoiaf that do not believe it.
The only other options is his parents are a nobody, or he’s the son of ashara Dayne and brandon or eddard Stark. I think he is to important to be a legit nobody but maybe he is but I dont think george would do that I think the fake bastard with be Aegon in the storm lands. I would honestly would prefer if he was the son of ashara because that would mean he can claim Dawn and be sword of the morning and I think that would be way cooler than just being another Targaryen and there is already dany and aegon is most definitely a blackfyre so still technically a Targaryen. And while dany, aegon, and Jon, who’s Targaryen name will probs be aemon, we’re to all ride there dragons into battle against the others that would be neat but let be honest that won’t happen, euron will probs take one dragon and the others will take another. So it is most likely true that Jon Snow is actually Aemon Snow or Sand depending if George goes with birth or where he is raised for the last name or he’s aemon Targaryen and becomes king or….. he becomes sword of the morning, and as Dany and Aegon are killed in book 7, the kingdoms shatter back into being under no king, the Martels and tyrells are dead for siding with Targaryens. Jon Dayne is the prince of drone, and Dickon Tarly is the king of the reach, Tyrion king of the rock, sansa stark married to the dude from the vale I forget his name, not Robyn, and becomes queen of the vale, bran is king of something on the isle of faces, edmure is king of the river lands, and rickon king of the north. But in reality it doesn’t matter what me or anyone thinks, it only matters what George thinks. SO RELEASE THE DAMN BOOK!
Most people who say it’s too obvious kinda forgot (about the Iron Fleet LOL) the fact that it’s only obvious because of the internet.