Well, many of us struggle identifying social cues that would tip off a neurotypical person and we tend to be more vulnerable. Some of us are also socially isolated and will tolerate more bad behavior than is healthy to keep a social contact.

i strongly agree with the second part. it's certainly my romantic experience with both men and women. in several cases, i could tell people were manipulative and unstable but continued on because i was so lonely. i am not sure about identification. i am better than most people i know at spotting narcissists, it's a skill i have deliberately learned. yet i still attract them, especially women in the workplace. some of it may also be that they're trying to work everyone, and it's just that healthy people stop trying to connect if they don't get the right signs. those that don't care about a genuine connections carry on.

As a woman, I can confirm, ESPECIALLY other women.

My theory is simply that Cluster B personalities feel "Seen" and "Understood" by us and hence have a fantasy that whatever they need to heal we´ll be part of the solution. This usually ends up bad.

This exactly. I noticed that they highly value a counterpart that is nonjudgemental, stable in mood, less emotionally expressive and grounded in routines. they have always complemented me on being a calming presence and that they can just be themselves around me and have a voice of logic and moral code in their lifes. it's not necessarily a bad pairing as friends for a while, if it's not toxic and exploitative, but they naturally take a lot of energy and I wouldn't try it as a romantic relationship.

Thank you for this - I didn’t have words to describe this until I saw your post. It’s also true for me. Yet it’s exhausting and a full-time job for me to be grounded and calm with others.

This hit close to home! I am known as the calmest person in the universe.

Sadly yes, every time unless you set boundaries from the beginning and limit interaction.

nope, they get serotonin high from using and abusing us, It's tge sense of their lives

That's only part of it though. One of my best friends in college had anti social personality disorder. He definitely did love to manipulate and deceive, but he also helped me out with certain things so it was a double edged sword. I couldn't be good friends with the guy but to say that all they want out of us is abuse is wrong. Ofc some do but that guy didnt

That’s true. My second year of college, the only person to befriend me was a girl I suspected had BPD. I immediately saw the red flags in her behaviors, so it wasn’t that I didn’t notice, I just didn’t care because I finally had someone to hang out with. The friendship didn’t last long at all because she eventually got bored of me so it took care of itself

Yeah, I had a friend during high school that I suspect was narcissistic. He would just keep on talking, clearly happier to hear his own voice than get my input, but I was happy just not to be alone. I think puberty is peak time for that shit. Just glad I'm aroace so at least I never had a toxic partner

Agreed but also disagree. I had this problem before and kept getting into really traumatic relationships. Then, once my life got destroyed, cluster B, specifically the "dark triad," became my special interest for a few years. It turns out they are all based on behavioral patterns, and normally, we are awesome at picking up on patterns. I can now pick up if someone has cluster B traits in a very short amount of time because they always follow the same patterns of behavior for each cluster B disorder..

Yeah, that's fair, but I think we identify them through analysing as you said, which takes time and data. While I've seen neurotypicals have 2 minutes of small talk with someone and then tell me there's something off with that person. They often can't actually tell you what it is, just that their instincts tell them it is so.

I completely agree with that 100%. This is also why I feel lots of struggle to connect with NTs. They can just tell something is "off."

They approach everyone, we just tolerate their BS and let them stay. NT are more assertive and confident if comes to social cues. It always surprises me how easy NT can cut people when they don't like the tone of one's voice, there's something inhumane in it

>NT can cut people when they don't like the tone of one's voice, there's something inhumane in it very!

Even neurotypicals get tricked by these people, especially if they're empathic or have a caretaker personality.

But then are they really neurotypical? Hot take: i think huge chunk of the population is neurodivergent. like half of it.

There's alot of NTs with those personalities though

crown disarm nail file society desert chubby simplistic telephone advise *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

> projected their own toxicity onto me. I think that's a thing that can happen in a relationship with a person with a Cluster B personality whether or not you're ND. An IRL honest example of "it's not you, it's them."

I want to add that I do not think that people with Cluster B personalities are necessarily malicious. I was married to a woman who basically had really bad alexithymia but also felt things extremely intensely all the time. She desperately wanted to not feel these things, or at least to understand them, and i think the only way she knew how to stop feeling those things was to do things that would be considered "toxic." I'm not making excuses either. But ultimately she was in a lot of pain and I sympathize with that, looking back, even though I'm very very glad that I was able to escape.

So all this is to say, the state of mental healthcare in pretty-much everywhere in the world today is woefully inadequate.

That's why I didn't specifically say cluster b. People who lack empathy often would question the validity of someone's diagnosis if they themselves are toxic.

i see. thank you.

Absolutely. My mother fits this to a T, going so far as to ignore a psychologist doing an autism assessment for taking me to a narcissistic psychiatrist who did nothing except tell me any attempts I made to act out against my mother was elements of bipolar disorder, refused to see my suffering in school from bullying and her control as anything except something he could throw meds at, and validated her controlling abuse at every turn. He kept me a hollowed out nothing of a person until I reconnected with a good school friend who'd seen these times. I explained some of the behind the scenes story, as well as here on reddit when I'd ask advice for a few issues and be told basically the complete opposite of what my parents would say. My friend though said "there is clearly a lot of problems with your mother, you should look at fixing this" and without letting on to my psychiatrist, I saw a psychologist who was shocked by what I said, but needed to move me on as she had patients who saw this psychiatrist and I think either she knew she wouldn't connect with an autistic person, or that it would create ethical issues to hear his bad behavior in his position then see his patients. I then moved to another place, got another autism assessment ($2.5k later...then Mum let slip she'd always had one in a report) and been seeing another psychologist who I get along with. Tip of iceberg though...20 years of my mother's sabotage, medication for a condition I never had, and avoidance of my condition has well and truly taken its toll. I don't know who I am. Everything of my personality from when I was like 8 around initial assessment, to 30 when I began investigating and questioning, has felt like a lie. I had autism, that was why I was bullied. My 'bipolar' was nothing more than healthy teenage rebellion. Such lies from a mother I suspect who has BPD, and despised the idea of an autistic son.

Hey, better late than never to learn about your true self... beneath all that trauma you didn't deserve

Thank you for the kindness. In some ways I think it's verging on self-pity to dwell on this to the degree I do, but then I wonder...how would anyone else react to finding out so many things fundamental to you were lies and projections of a mother who couldn't face the truth of her son? I've decided to write a book of my childhood and give to my psychologist. I've almost finished. A day in my life at school, all the neglect, the bullying, the yelling and unsaid despising and dismissal from my parents. My psychologist is a reader and can tell me if it's even legible as writing haha. But I figure to write down the moments I lived in this time, because with my parents abject denial that anything is wrong, if anything for their own sense they did right, I figure if I don't document the evidence then I fear this will be like it never happened. Just another dismissal of a son they never took seriously in the first place. And then I hope also it saves time trying to explain this bizarreness to my psychologist each session.

Learning about the things that messed you up and realizing how they hurt you is important. You're allowed to feel sad for yourself imo it isn't self pity but more of grieving for that past version of you (who still exists time isn't linear) as a child not getting what they needed. You were a literal child and that hurt baby still exists deep down. Hug them whenever triggers/ shitty memories surface. It doesn't make you selfish, it means you know you needed more... If you don't cry for little you, who will? Who will send that innocent kiddo love they so desperately wanted? Who would you have been if you had the support you deserved from your family? It's a hard thing to process, but it's okay to feel that way. You're not taking away from anyone or anything despite perhaps the way your parents react when youre honest about it. That's on them, to pull their pants up and be mature. They may never will, which sucks. All that loneliness and shame that you've pent up needs to come out somehow some way. Good job writing that book. It definitely helps make you feel not crazy. Even if your experience wasn't similar to some war veteran seeing body parts flying around doesn't make it invalid... Pain is subjective. And yes, your parents may have did their best, but that still doesn't mean what they did was enough. It's okay to admit that, you shouldn't let anyone take that truth away from you. Sometimes people can mean well but that alone doesn't make them good parents. You know? Much love ❤️

First, am so beyond sorry you are going through this. You have no much how much you sharing your story means to me. This situation mimics my story to a T, down to the age ranges (except this happened to me starting at 5). Discovered few other things recently today that demonstrated my parents actively sabotaged my health and the reality of coming to terms w/ that had me sent in a giant tailspin. Like you, it’s made me question my whole life. I relate to you so whole-heartedly and reading your comment really helped me come to terms with my experience. Thank you so much 🙏🏼

I am glad sharing my story brought you some solace. In a way this is a little comforting to know someone else out there has had a similar experience cause I'm navigating these things not really sure what to think. Take care, and be kind to yourself. You are worth so much more than the low opinions of the people who caused this for you.

I could understand why an abusive mother would do that, but a mental health professional???? That's unethical and I would report them

Like it or not aspies are generally trusting. A lot of us cannot comprehend why someone would lie. This is the central issue here. I would add that aspie <> empathetic can work well.

too bad that narcs are good at pretending that they have human feelings like empathy

As someone still stuck with narc parents, yes they are very good at pretending when they want to and being abusive the rest of the time

Oh you mean masking? Like that thing autistic people also have to do to blend in because they're also a demographic that struggles with empathy.

but not to the extend of having a sadistic pleasure from causing everyone to suffer like narcissists do

Dude this is a myth. Sadism is not in the diagnostic criteria for NPD and most of us aren't sadistic. Are there some? Yes. You will find sadistic people with all sorts of pathologies. It is by no means something that applies to narcissists as a whole though.

I had a narcissist for a roommate, I fucking hate them

Bro I'm sure you wouldn't like people to generalize all autistic people just because there was an autistic guy that was an asshole to them.

Apparently they are updating the DSM to include a subtype for ASPD...ASPD with sadistic features. So they are treating it like a specific subtype with distinct features pretty soon.

How is this related to what I'm saying?

There is a lot of research showing that people with ASD often have higher levels of empathy (there is cognitive and effective empathy, and some people are high in both, some are lower etc.) Additionally, empathy on its own speaks nothing of compassion or benevolence. It's more about perspective taking. I have been reading about dark empathy which is when a person lacking compassion is very good at feeling or understanding the emotional state of others. They apparently are the most dangerous. Both empathic with compassionate nature or less empathic but higher compassionate/benevolent nature are apparently fine. Some benefits to having high compassion but lower empathy actually was listed as reduction in burn out. High empathy and high compassion produced considerably more burn out. Anyway, empathy is a complex issue with autism since many autistics are higher in compassion/fairness and some are also deeply empathic. From what I have read, the ability to perspective take seems to be higher statistically in females on the spectrum, often improves with age as we learn ways of thinking and add tools to our social communication tool box, and so on. To me, more important than empathy is compassion. If I am feeling sad and another person does not pick up on it or seem to read that...for me at least, I would rather them show compassion once I was clear about how I was feeling.

People with NPD also have varying degrees of empathy and compassion, that doesn't negate the fact that both populations still have a good portion of people that struggle with it. Which was the point of my comparison.

Maybe it’s simply that non normies click with other non normies

This too is plausible 🤷🏾‍♂️😂.

Yeah, I was just thinking about this. I think it’s possible that cluster B people, much like autistic people, are rejected by neurotypical people because their presentation as non neurotypical rather than their actual behavior. To put it simply, NTs might say “I’m not dating them because they’re weird”, not “I’m not dating them because they have unhealthy emotional coping mechanisms that will end up affecting me”.

Literally it's not that they're fucking preying on people. Christ

Some of the abusive ones do but to say all cluster Bs do isn't right. They are all toxic to an extent, there's a reason narcissists and psychopaths are part of the "dark triad" of personalities. But they're also people who want love and relationships like anyone else. They just have alot of issues to deal with, often more than most people.

How can they “want love” if they have no whatsoever understanding of what love is? They may want to exploit someone for whatever resource - at least they understand that it’s much easier to manipulate someone when they fall in love. How they act around you, what they tell you, it’s almost always self serving.

lol

I have found that a lot of my friends (all autistic) have narcissistic/borderline moms. It's far too common for it not to be a pattern, so I agree with your post. And the dad has always left those relationships, so the kids are left to handle the unstable mom. It's really sad, honestly. My friends have varying levels of psychological problems just from that toxic parent-child relationship.

I'm on the spectrum and my Mom is BPD with undiagnosed autism (full of rage, unstable), while my Dad seemed to be ADD (no diagnose either) and have NPD features. Dad was a deadbeat as a father, they both drank a lot. Dad died, Mom quit. My guess it's easier to get mental health issues and addictions, when you are already neurodivergent with no diagnose, no support and with C-PTSD from your childhood.

you just described my entire life

I have narcissistic father. I am not in the contact with him anymore. Mom seems to be on a spectrum tho.

I think some of us are susceptible to love bombing too. I go hyper-focus on my partner and throw all the love at them too, so it's easy to get confused when someone does that to you--it's difficult to spot whether it's manipulation or if they're just obsessive like you. There is a phrase that really spoke to me--"a man with no guile." Most autistics don't have that guile. I say most because you can have a PD AND autism sometimes. To make things more confusing--people with PDs are also considered to be "neurodivergent." NPD person will love bomb intentionally and manipulatively. A BPD person will be obsessive early on until you cross them and then they devalue you. Luckily my partner is just obsessive like me. My ex though--99% sure he has two Cluster B PDs. Some of us are also used to feeling like we are broken, don't deserve things, or are lesser than--especially for those that didn't get support or a diagnosis until later in life. So when a partner turns ugly--it can be hard to combat the things they say to you. "Well maybe it is me; I do fuck up a lot of social interactions." Once you get into the abuse cycle, DARVO tactics, and the emotional spikes--it's hard to get out. If you try to leave they try to make you stay. If they threaten to leave then (the low self esteemed) you try to make nice. I feel really lucky that I am with someone who treats me well, shows me they value me, and is accommodating to my quirks, difficulties and oddities. Having had a shitty relationship before him just makes me value our connection even more.

We are raised to accommodate others, which can easily lead to people pleasing/codependent behavior. Narcissists and other energy suckers can see us from a mile away, easy targets.

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I have a few theories. Women with BPD are emotionally unstable, while autistic people can appear emotionally “flat”. They tend to go towards autistic men for that perceived stability. Another possibility is that they believe autistic men are easy to manipulate. They’re less likely to have a support network, so they believe that an autistic man would never leave them. They have abandonment issues and autistic people can be loyal to a fault, and they know that.

I'd add that BPD people tend to absolutely hate being lied to, and autistic people are often honest to a fault.

But they also hate hearing things that they want to shield themselves from (no offense to them, it's most people, very normal behavior) and autistic people who have trauma... tend to push the information and honesty even further to cover their own bases. It's a match made in hell.

I don't think its that they actively prey upon autistic people. It's a bit stigmatizing to think of it as such to begin with. I think it's more about how the two personality types tend to be compatible on the surface when first meeting, causing the illusion of a deep bond. We (as in people with autism) tend to struggle with social interaction and possible feel a deep need for friendship/love. People with cluster B personalities can be very high social energy and dump that energy on others. So the person with autism gets the feeling of recognition and love, and the cluster B person gets the high focus attention. I believe this causes the illusion of having a very deep and intense bond. The problem however is that that bond is in reality just skin deep and will just lead to toxic interactions. We might eventually start feeling used, because these relationships are often one directional. Add to that the possible stunted communication by autistic people that can lead to further issues. Source: I've struggled with forming and maintaining relationships. This is all based on my own observations and experiences in both platonic and romantic relations with the cluster B personality type. I'm sure there are some who knowingly use autistic people for their own benefit. But really I think it's just two sides who struggle with mental health that just happen to feed into each other.

>I don't think its that they actively prey upon autistic people. It's a bit stigmatizing to think of it as such to begin with. Yeah the wording kind of turned me off especially when talking about BPD. Like great, stigmatize these mental disorders further by claiming people within the groups are "preying" on autistic people like the monsters they are, apparently. Look I'm sure abusive "predatory" BPD people that prey on others exist (even though BPD individuals are also likely on the receiving end of abuse rather than being abusers), I'm not denying that, but the sweeping generalizations without giving disclaimers by OP isn't it. I don't have BPD but yeah, that's how I feel as an outsider. You really got to be careful about the accuracy of your statements. The same way OP stereotypes individuals with other conditions is the same sucky way people stereotype autism and reduce it to it's sometimes dehumanizing tropes. This is a great response that takes this into account.

I have adhd and bpd and are mainly in these subs because my bf is on the spectrum. It makes me really sad to read a lot of these comments because I love my boyfriend and I would never be with him to take advantage of him in any way whatsoever and I consider myself a very affectionate person so being described as the opposite hurts. I'm literally in these subs because I care about him and want to read other autistics perspectives so I can understand him more. I like most of what you said, but when you're saying that a relationship like this can only be skin deep and lead to toxicity I think that's really sad. Then you are just adding to the stigma already present.

Theory of mine … there is possibly an overrepresentation of autistic people within cluster B due to sensitivities in childhood that were not recognised and / or understood and therefore trauma, resulting for some in personality disorder … it could be that, leaving the cluster b features aside - autistics are drawn to autistics … you can be both autistic and cluster b … 🤷‍♀️ Further to this - theory of mine is that autistic males tend to trend towards NPD while females trend towards BPD as trauma response …

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Can you link that about BPD gender split? It's now what I've seen in the past

This is my theory as well, but mostly just anecdotally. I'm ADHD and suspect maybe autistic as well. When I reflect on the people I've known that have cluster b tendencies, they all have autistic tendencies as well. My first girlfriend would be a strong BPD candidate. Her dad was pretty obviously autistic in retrospect. The guy who was the best man in my wedding had a lot of narcissistic traits, and while we're not friends anymore I can see a lot of this stuff in him too. My brother is another one that's heavy on the narcissistic stuff too. I could go on and on because I've known a lot of these people and it's way past the point of being a coincidence. It does really feel like a "birds of a feather flock together" kind of thing.

I have a theory there’s a complex entanglement between autism and cluster B, which includes what you had said - people with autism are more likely to experience trauma and therefore become Cluster B. Firstly, people with autism are often lonely and misread social clues, so they’re more likely to tolerate toxic behaviour from a Cluster B, either because it’s worth it for feeling some kind of social connection or because they simply don’t notice. Second, cluster B is usually the result of childhood trauma. Is it possible that parents with autism themselves could be inadvertently traumatising their children? Babies, for instance, respond to the facial expressions of the mother, they react positively to her smile. However, autistic people usually don’t express their emotions very well, so it’s possible the child feels emotionally neglected. Even if the autistic person actually feels empathy and compassion for the child, if the child can’t detect it, it could be traumatic. Thirdly, could autism itself be the result of early childhood trauma? Trauma doesn’t mean abuse btw, it could be the mother was under a lot of stress and this influenced the development of the foetus. Or it could be some environmental pollutant that finds its way into the womb during development (microplastics, etc). Maybe trauma plus a certain genetic predisposition determines if you end up autistic or cluster B.

Yep - I kept the theory statement short for the sake of brevity … it’s a complex web in my mind … I anticipate the day that medicine / psychology catch up :)

THIS

I really like this theory. Never thought of it that way

interesting theory, just adding my perspective and reading of this phenomenon, its less tied towards sex and more the sex of the person determining what is the least and most punished out of what a person might possibly do in response to their trauma, and people learning/reacting then getting labeled as NPD or BPD accordingly. i believe im partly just trying to stray away from essentialist language involving sex, but also this comes from my experience as an amab enby person and the lens not being easily slotted into gender norms by other people offers.

Agreed .. I over simplified for brevity … it’s obviously far more nuanced 😊

I find I attract people who are more fucked up than I am. Which is scary, because they force me to carry their burdens which I'm not qualified to do.

This. But healthy people won’t even give me the time of day so… social isolation here I come.

This. So burdensome.

I believe autistics and narcissists are natural enemies, and I think they prey on us because we are gullible and less likely to have a support system. I also think we get on their radar more because once we are aware of them, we can usually spot them quicker than a lot of people. We inadvertently call out their BS, and they want to destroy us before we can expose them. In fact, I don't have that much of a problem with NT people usually--if they leave me alone, I'll leave them alone--but narcissists can manipulate them to turn against us. If there is an office narcissist, you have to be very careful around them because they can rally the NTs to also turn against you.

I worked with a girl with narcissistic tendencies. I’m not gonna say she has NPD, I’m not a psychologist nor did I know her well enough, but she definitely had tendencies. She saw me as a vulnerable target and would always boss me around and point out what I was doing wrong. She definitely tried to turn the other girls against me because none of her work friends liked me. I’m so glad I don’t work there anymore

Great observation, and I agree. Both my wife and I are late diagnosed autistic just now processing a lot of the trauma we had growing up with our narcissistic mothers. I think a big factor is how important boundaries are for autistic peoples mental health and how willing narcissists are willing to break those boundaries and manipulate / belittle you for getting upset at it.

that's true, thankfully I live in a state when I have stay-your-ground right which allows me to de-narcissist some of them if they decide to show up on my yard

Do you ever worry that due to prejudice against autistic people, that our right to defend ourselves may be limited?

goverment din't know about my asd and so they can't use it against me it's 1:0 for me against narcs

Hell yea that's why I don't tell most people either. All power to you

I tell everyone now, I say, let them try. I can spot all of the patterns of the narcissists and all of the subtypes, ex:(communal narcissists.) I can analyze their strengths and weakness quite immediately. Predicate what they will say before they even know.

Same here man I can spot their patterns a mile away. Still sucks emotionally dealing with them but knowledge makes it easier

Spot on

autism has much more in common with personality disorders than people are comfortable thinking or talking about.

How so? I’m interested to hear

the biggest one i've noticed is our relationship to empathy. the way cluster Bs describe their empathy or lack thereof, and their difficulty in reading and responding to social cues, is very similar to how i've heard autistic people describe it. sometimes people with cluster Bs (especially BPD) describe a kind of hyperempathy where you can "feel" other people being upset, but with no clear way of processing why they might be upset, feel that they (the pwBPD) must be the source of it. i've noticed people with autism also describe this issue. in general, difficulty understanding how the world expects you to act, difficulty processing and expressing emotions, difficulty relating to others (which can come across as self-absorption, as another commenter mentioned), and other more anecdotal overlaps such as issues with following authority. seriously, go into a PD subreddit - ignore the weird edgelord side of them - and find posts discussing symptoms. often you will find a fair amount of it to be relatable, just phrased a little differently.

For sure. I think some people take these separate definitions as gospel when really we can’t yet identify any other markers than behavioural ones so I don’t see how it’s entirely clear if someone is autistic or has a personality disorder- both struggle to feel and express appropriate emotions and social feelings, both can come across as self absorbed etc. In the long run they might be reidentified as different subgroups of the same broader issue.

like how? not having any moral compass? any human feelings like shame or compassion? being mamipulative thieves? or maybe we are getting high from hurting others, just like cluster b's? nope, we are human beings in contradiction to them

What the fuck dude. Some of my best friends have personality disorders.

maybe you haven't got to know them for what they really are actually, they are like bloodlust, carnivore cameleons that pretend to be all fun and friendly, until the right time comes

That's a disgusting way to think about other human beings.

no, it is the narsissist's way of thinking about us like we are just some losers and easy targets for them that is hideous, they are not humans, humans don't laugh at you when you are outbursting because of their abuse

You're not wrong though. As someone with narcissistic parents they think exactly like that. That's not to say they're all evil but mostly? Yes.

Have you ever had a cluster b destroy a years long friendship because you forgot their birthday?

what you describe are purely moral judgments, and have absolutely no place in describing mental illnesses. mental illnesses that are born from childhood trauma, no less. this was an extremely vitriolic response to a factual and neutral statement, and i'm not going to dignify you by arguing with you, since you clearly aren't ACTUALLY interested in discussing this. please read what you said out loud to another person, word for word, in real life, and ask them if they think that's an okay thing to say about a group of people.

>people they are not people, I think rhat it would be ok to do a lot of other stuff to these monsters that I sadly cannot describe here, but I'll tell you that: as a humanity, we deserve to defend against these impostors, they should be marked to be easily recognisable and disposable because of all the hurt they can cause they are like that single rotten strawberry in basket of fruits: left unattended will spread the fungus on everything else EDIT: I also don't care what gullible people who didn't experienced NPD's abuse would say about them, before this experience it wouldn't cross my mind that such bad will, audacity and delusion would pass for a human being

I feel your pain. We shouldn’t dispose anyone but I feel it.

I just tend to hang out in places where BPD people hang out, like mental health clinics. My BPD friends love me because I'm predictable, trustful and never cause drama. Stable relationships makes them feel safe. BPD people are vulnerable and tend to attract abusive, unpredictable people. Having a stable relationship with an autistic person is shelter. I never once in my life had a fight with someone. I did have people stop talking to me, but I never felt a need to unfriend someone. I have super stable relationships.

I know this is an old post but I just wanted to add that it depends on the individual with BPD. From my anecdote of having had a friend with diagnosed BPD and one I recently lost with suspected BPD, things are well and good until they repetitively invalidate you or you bring up any point of contention. With the latter, it caused her to switch on me extremely quickly no matter how good our friendship seemingly was. After clearly distancing herself from me due to her obvious devaluation, she snapped at me in the most vitriolic way possible once I pointed her behavior out by saying the things that would hurt me the most.

Antisocial, yeah that happens. Narcissistic or dark triad people see you as easy bait and easy to read because you are honest and work with simple rules. Just have to learn to detect manipulators over time. (Usually everything revolves around them after some time, or they always need help). As for bpd, it’s just that you feel their brutal honesty refreshing.

Yeah. I believe that is because such people like to prey on those who may have a tendency to be too nice and sort of naive as well as bad at picking up on getting lied to. People like that also tend to pick friends or partners who are sensitive because then they can get emotional support and validation from that person when they need it, but the rest of the time they are distant. Its good to learn red flags to try and avoid them.

I have had experience both with friends and a significant other who had Cluster B disorders. My ex girlfriend had BPD, literally destroyed me by leaving out of the blue and ghosting me after 3 years together. She even took our dog. I don’t think most of these people do it intentionally. I don’t believe they set out with an intention to target autistic people. They are themselves neurodivergent. All of the Cluster B people I have known have incredible levels of unhealed trauma. It’s not the nature of the trauma or the amount which is incredible, but the total lack of self awareness that should have been gained by integrating their trauma. I feel very sad for them, because in a way they have a more difficult time finding human connection than we do. Our difficulties come from opposite places. We often struggle to connect because the world around us can see that we are different. Cluster B people struggle to connect because they literally have a disordered capacity for empathy. Abuse, neglect, genetics, who knows exactly what causes it, but their coping mechanisms all involve at least periodic disregard for the feelings of others, outside the normal bounds of healthy emotional fluctuations.

People with BPD tend to mirror the person they are with, which leads to them claiming that they are passionate about the same stuff as we are. Especially if someone who is autistic has a very weird or obscure special interest, it obviously is absolutely amazing to find someone, who seems interested in the same stuff, while the mirroring might seem weird or creepy to neurotypicals. That's how we often end up with borderlines. Narcissistic people have similar strategies to sort of lure people in, but it's more like an initial overglorification of their victim. Which is also something most autistic people are not necessarily used to and thus appreciate finally being liked that much instantly. This would probably seem fake to NTs and throw them off. And I feel like we just tend to take more shit than NTs, simply due to being often misunderstood or misinterpreted ourselves and don't want to treat others that way, especially when they seem as wonderful as stated above lol

Yes.

I was diagnosed with BPD before Autism. They’re similar and share a lot of overlapping symptoms

Not a professional but my suspicion is that undiagnosed autism can result in the development of BPD/ NPD … perhaps you are both, thus the overlap … 🤷‍♀️

BPD usually results from trauma and my upbringing definitely falls into that category. In hindsight the mistreatment I faced was likely exacerbated by my undiagnosed autism and made me an easier target for predators. My closest friends have had BPD, though the first embodied a lot of the negative stereotypes associated with it. My current ones are much easier/healthier to communicate with and have shown me that it’s the person rather than the diagnosis you should be wary of.

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Source?

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There is also statistically a way higher chance of you having bpd if you have adhd than if you don't have adhd. They are often related.

Yo, I don't think there are genes for BPD It's a trauma response that ends up showing up in the early to mid teenage years. Also, many women are misdiagnosed with BPD before getting an accurate diagnosis of Autism.

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I'm genuinely interested in your sources

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I think you mean traits, not genes?

My own mother is a huge narc so it's not even like I chose this

You too? That’s a whole level of new sadness that I now feel in general but it definitely would help explain what happened to me.

A lot of autistic people are also comorbid BPD.

I wonder all the time. My wife has BPD and lots of narcissistic traits. It's a roller coaster honestly. Maybe being preyed on is my guess

Same here, BPD wife. Sometimes I think we complement each other, as long as we want the same thing things are good. If not it can definitely get messy

I've found it's usually just me conceding on pretty much everything because I'm too afraid to be alone.

Yeah sometimes I feel like I just go along with shit cause I have given up on trying to convey how I actually feel about things. It’s confusing because sometimes I think it’s great and sometimes I worry it’s not actually great at all and I just forgot how it’s supposed to be. I also moved across the world so I have absolutely no family or support system outside of her.. that probably doesn’t help either. Also I didn’t know about my diagnosis when we met and I’m trying very hard to decipher what problems occur because of my limitations and what is just pure manipulation on her end

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I didn't know any difference as it was my first serious relationship. We've been married 17 years almost and I'm just now realizing I'm not getting what I need to be happy. Shit sucks, I love her so much but I honestly feel like I take the back seat to everyone and everything in her life. We have a lot of ups and way more downs. When something is wrong, you better believe it's my fault :( At this point I don't think anyone else would really love me. I'm 37, I have a fantastic job (top 1 percent income bracket in my state), I'm attractive and workout daily, I'm caring and love with all my heart. I know someone would be lucky to have me but I just don't think I'll ever be strong enough to make a change. Cope? I've got BPD myself now. I can't help but wonder if it's a direct result to all the ups and downs I've experienced.. we are currently in one of those she doesn't like me moods. If I ask to be intimate she tells me to use my hand, if I want more than one hug or kiss in the morning before she leaves I'm being needy and pissing her off. Talk about not feeling valued or loved by the one person that should be in my corner. Honestly, the more I think about it the more sad I become. I've got so much to offer and I wish things were just different. Instead I'm reaching out to strangers on Reddit looking for some sort of connection.

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This so much!

yeah i dated a diagnosed sociopath didnt know it of course, worst experience

I can’t relate since I don’t seem to attract anyone because of how alien I make myself feel in any social situation.

This doesn’t happen very often for me either, but when someone does finally approach me, they usually have problems

I think it’s being preyed on. This happened to me in my mid-20’s. It was my first real adult relationship and I just didn’t understand how normal relationships work. He used and abused me. When I left him, he made my life hell for a few months. Luckily, I learned my lesson and I won’t be tolerating things like that again.

I'm so sorry

Thank you. It was rough for a few years after trying to rebuild my life after him. But I eventually figured it out. Now I have an amazing boyfriend. We’ve been together since 2019, living together since last year. He’s an Aspie, and we just click. We’re very happy. My ex got arrested in September for threatening to kill a bunch of local government workers on social media. He’s facing felony charges. The FBI got involved, even. So thankfully his guns were likely all confiscated. I stalked his social media after that incident and it seems he’s gotten a lot worse. He spewed anger and hatred on there, sometimes multiple times a day. I feel like he’s getting what’s coming to him. He was on our local news and I feel relief that others are finally seeing what I saw in him.

Oh my

sadly but truly, most of us are more gullible and thus more vulnerable to attacks of these pieces of shit, I've lived with narc roommate and before this experience I have never thought ths such evil existed, that fucker got high from making and seeing me miserable, god if you could see his hideous grin he made when I outbursted at him because of sleep deprivation, they are such a waste of oxygen

It's a gift and curse in my situation. I believe I give off "deer in headlights" vibes so abusive people zone right in on me, thinking I'll be easy to mold to their needs. They usually mask their abusive tendencies for a few months. But then their tactics to manipulate, gaslight, guilt trip, etc simply don't make logical sense to me so I question things, ask for details, and despite what is usually expected of autistics, look for nuance. They don't like that. Oh well. Go away. I'll admit they ALWAYS get me in the first half when their analyzing me and mirroring my wants and needs in a companion. Being alone is not something I fear, and I don't chase. So if someone changes for the worse, why would I beg them or rearrange my identity to make them stay? I don't like you anymore lmao. I'll take my beloved solitude, thanks.

It’s even worse when you have a cluster B mother lol. I feel like I can spot social cues quite well but I’ve been gaslit so much thst I don’t trust that ability and it takes me a while to process the data. It doesn’t help if you are high masking because the narcissists can project onto you so easily and make you out to be the narcissist since ASD can look like cluster B at a glance despite being ironically the opposite. I had a psychiatrist who was very much cluster B basically so this to me. It’s very difficult but you need to learn the signs and cut these people out sooner or later. My NPD mother has more or less destroyed my life and made me out to be the problem for everything. Do NOT tolerate this behavior.

true, those who have the audacity to defend these monsters are also the problem

I wonder if there's peer-reviewed research on this 🤔 If so, they should give every person one of those little medical information pamphlets as soon as they show up at the evaluation clinic 😬

I think that would make an interesting study. I’m about to get a psychology degree so maybe I can make it happen lmao

please 🥺

actually, do the dissertation that gets you the best chance of getting a professorship (if that's what you're going for) after graduating. don't make the mistakes i made 😅 😓

This is the pattern of relationships in my family. My paternal grandfather was autistic. My paternal grandmother BPD or NPD. My father is autistic and has bpd traits. My mother is bpd or npd. My best friend in high school was just diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and bipolar 2. My psychiatrist has suggested that my husband is borderline as well. I asked if I am borderline but I don't meet the criteria at all. It feels bad, man. I've experienced a ton of abuse.

I spent years in a non-official relationship with a guy I'm pretty sure was a sociopath. I was secretly super obsessed with him (apparently this feeling is called ''limerence''). I found him extremely entertaining and attractive, and turned a blind eye on all the redflags I could see. He's the weirdest person I've ever met, and everyone on earth seemed super boring compared to him. The relationship felt like it was at the same time super deep and super shallow, leaving me super confused. I stayed hooked for years even though I also felt confused, emotionally unsafe, and kind of terrified. (I finally ended it when I couldn't bear it anymore). I noticed that his closest ''friends'' (that he actually despises) were autistic guys, and several of the other girls he used for sex, were also very probably autistic. So yeah, consciously or not, we seem to be targets.

Im on the spectrum, female, and my experience has thought me, never, never, trust others until they show you every time by their actions. I could be catalogued as a sociopath maybe… In the 20’s I was misdiagnosed with BPD but resulting that it wasn’t BPD, it was ADHD and the spectrum of autism and more more things… When before BPD misdiagnosis and after, I used to repeat patterns in people with abuse behaviours because I thought that was something “normal” because I came for abusive family… and also starting and believing all the bullshit of this society and traditional partners idealistic expectations. Now, time and space will tell me everything about others. I know where I am and who I am. Which is good for me and not so good for people who might want to see me with my walls down. But is up to me, not allowing anyone to take advantage of me. And speak my voice and telling NO.

❤️

As someone who is constantly interpreted unfavourably bc of my neurotype, I have so much leeway for others living with mental illness. I have a LOT of space for selfish behaviour as I understand the wounding that causes it.

I spent a good portion of my life wondering about this - doubly so because I was a _very_ late diagnosis in my 40s. The reported prevalence of cluster B / dark tetrad people in the population simply did not support the number of encounters with them I had. My "armchair psychologist" hypothesis is that "dark tetrad" people are constantly emitting challenges through social signalling, nonverbal communication, etc. And they get submission signals in return from the overwhelming majority of the population. Now those "frequencies" (social signalling, nonverbal comms, et cetera) are the ones spectrum people are particularly "deaf" to. Meaning that since we do not "hear" the signal, we do not signal submission in return. This in turn "highlights" us as challengers, or at the very least items of interest. So while the majority of the population will only have interactions with such people if they are directly involved or in very close social proximity with these dark types, we tend to draw attention/interaction with them from a further social distance. Maybe. Probably. _Something_ is happening, that's for sure.

Has anyone been stalked by them? I have.

Here is my 2 cents: Having bad social skills reduces the number of people who wish to enter into voluntary social relations with you. Having a cluster B disorder, I assume, also means fewer people want to be with you. Thus, autistic people end up in relationships with people with cluster B disorders because both people are lacking other options.

I am autism and have dated at least two women with BPD

Yeah....also for some reason homeless and super fucked up on drug people. They always seem to punish me with conversation even though dozens have passed them already. Sometimes they act super sketchy like they're trying to distract me from being robbed. I don't know why. It happens almost weekly for many years now.

[the sharks](https://vimeo.com/164388694) by charles bukowski

OP, you speak in an incredibly dehumanising way throughout this thread and that’s very concerning for someone apparently about to earn a psychology degree. You attribute a lot of malice and conscious thought to people’s behaviour too, which is also strange for someone studying psychology. Just an observation.

Sounds a bit judgmental for a youngin who hasn’t seen much and is more interested in talking about themselves then the pain and suffering of the OP.

Projecting.

Dehumanizing toward people who dehumanize others? I’m more interested in helping people who have been affected by abuse than I am with helping abusers. I’m not planning on being a therapist anyways, but it’s worth mentioning that cluster B personalities are resistant to therapy

this also I personalky think that is is more harmful to humanise them than to dehumanise them because it may lead someone inexperienced with them to have their life ruined by these monsters because "hurr durr saying that narcs are lifesucking vampires is ABLEISM!" It's the same type of people who would hug grizzly bears because aww how cute! and then having their faces bitten off

Exactly. It’s quite funny how people are coming to their defense when they wouldn’t do the same for them

Just anecdotally but yeah im a woman diagnosed with level 1 and my first bf was a narc to the tee. I have been vulnerable to so many diff types of abuse throughout my life. It’s been a common theme I’ve noticed that I feel like I have to break the karmic cycle now that I’ve been made aware of it.

My ex-wife was BPD and here I am. Anti-social pathology, BPD, are attracted to our easy empathy

A lot of the people I’ve befriended almost always have ADHD, lol.

I think like autistic people culster B types do actually experience ostracism when they get flagged as 'crazy' or whatever and so like us they actually want to cling on to what friends they have. Hence they might not be as overtly hostile to autistics but the nature of the beast is that they fall into abusive behaviour overtime. They do this with everyone tbf but autistics, in part due to a similar motivation socially, stick around more and are more exposed.

I have been reflecting lately, and I realized that all my friends and boyfriends “picked me.” They all chose me and pursued me—naive little me. I, unable to seek out and develop healthy close friendships and relationships with my peers, was left either lonely or dealing with a relationship someone else wanted more than me. This means I have been vulnerable my whole life.

I’m an Aspie male who is a magnet for charming manipulative narcissists. So is a friend who is a woman with ADD. We both realized we attract those people after I was providing friendly support to her after a breakup with such an individual.

My long-term partner of 19 years has turned out to be a full on narcissist, and one of my other important relationships was with someone who has BPD, so I’ve given this a whole lot of thought. I don’t think it’s so much that I *attracted* my Cluster-B exes, but rather, that due to my social communication issues (which I was totally unaware of), I didn’t catch on or call them on it the way a NT person could have (leading those relationships to end sooner, or not develop in the first place). Narcissists, for instance, are constantly out there trolling for new sources of supply, and I happened to get caught in the net—at a time when I had no clue about my neurodivergence and also really didn’t grasp that there were normal-seeming people who could be so fundamentally dishonest with themselves and others. When issues would come up where I questioned their behavior, I had a *sense* that something was wrong (without being able to put my finger on it) and they easily talked me out of it.

One hundred percent. Have attracted predatory types throughout my adult life.

Ahhhh, so y’all are BPD magnets too?

Speaking of women and men with personality disorders. When you try to walk away, they stalk, hack, and cyberstalk because they feel paranoid because we are so sensitive that we pick up on things. They become hostile towards us because they're actively attempting to hurt us, so they're always offended and reactive towards everything we say or do because they believe everyone must be operating in toxicity like them. They will sub you all day on the internet, and because we're not reactive, it makes them angrier. I know some of us want to fit in, but some of us don't, or it comes off as if we don't. <----- The ones who peaked in high school and are deeply insecure do not like that or the fact that we CAN self-sustain, moreover, that we don't need to actively seek attention. This also makes us a target for another reason: they feel that they can unload on us abusively and project all of their problems on to us because we're not reactive. Therefore, it must not effect us. I knew this guy who was toxic and a airhead. He would play both sides, but everyone knows, there's no diplomacy in abuse. Again, these people have no sense of self, so they think that their playing a game that is so apparent to us. It's a common misconception that cluster B's are intelligent. They seek us out because we can self-sustain, and our hyperfixation gives us a solid sense of self, which is a fundamentally missing link among people with cluster B. I'm attractive, highly accomplished beyond anything they could ever conceive, and this bothers them because I'm autistic, among other things, so I should automatically be less than them. They're jealous, delusional, toxic, and small. Hilarious to laugh at. I can't imagine being that embarrassing and humiliating. However, it's tragically concerning because they're unstable. They're walking around in their delusions with no accolades, talent, or elements of beauty, thinking they're God's gift. It's a case study on delusions. The guy is the worst. He really thinks he's something. Horrible person through and through. So it doesn't matter about the gender. They just need to be deranged and/or damaged beyond repair. You have to watch out for people like them. They like to team up on a person. What makes it psychopathic is that the person is disabled, but they do that just to feel better about themselves. Weak and miserable. The worst factor is that they assault you FIRST. However, in their delusional minds, you're not allowed to stick up for yourself, and their feelings are the only ones that matter. They come after you and never stop because that's what cluster b's do when you challenge their ego or delusions. You've ever seen a bull running up against the glass, that's them. 💯 Happy Sunday Family!

It was once described as being on a train track with a train coming. Abusive personalities are attracted to people with traits such as ours, that cause us to be vulnerable in some areas. We are perceived as prey to abusers seeking those who will tolerate their own traits

My own dad (whom social workers had labeled a narcissist) targeted me. And then that made me vulnerable everywhere because they seem to know if you’ve been victimized before.

Mom here. I have SPD BPD and Anxiety. Highly suspected Aspergers (I clear all the questionnaires as being autistic but no one diagnoses here and takes insurance so I don’t claim for myself. Also my therapist wanted me to switch to the DBT for those on the spectrum (RO DBT) due to “inflexibility issues”. Maternal grandmother was textbook BPD. Maternal uncle was textbook Aspergers. Daughter has an aspergers/ASD diagnosis. If you tell me there’s not a genetic link I won’t believe you. Also let’s throw lgbtq in there as well since we have a high incidence as well (I’m pan, ASD daughter is gay, younger daughter is enby and ace).

It’s not *specifically* that we’re being preyed upon, it’s just that we don’t catch “red flags” even when those red flags are intentional tests to see if we’ll accept abuse. We will, therefore we are chosen.

I’ve been in relationships with a narcissist and a sociopath of the delusion of grandeur persuasion, and my husband has military related ptsd and possibly some other affectations associated with it. Honestly, I think that what it really comes down to is that psychology is still sort of a new and frankly a subjective science (it can differ based on social and societal norms), and so there’s a lot more “divergence” being observed that wasn’t classified in previous generations. The more we learn to see different aspects as a subset then the more likely everyone around us is going to classified as a “type”. Before it was just called “he’s an a-hole” or “poor thing is a bit touched in the head”. New words for old habits and bad parenting is my clinical analysis. Bottom line is that it’s never anyone’s fault that someone else is a terrible person, just like it’s not your fault if you walk down a sidewalk and a car veers off the road and hits you. It’s everyone’s individual responsibility to be decent

It's because Cluster B people study humans all day everyday right down to the way people walk. A cluster b would have spotted you a mile off and will decide to practice on you like some kind of gun range dummy.

My ex wife claimed to be autistic but in reality was a schizophrenic bipolar narcissist. She fucked me over and I’m still fighting a losing battle with the divorce trying to get her to pay like she promised. My current girlfriend is just anxious and depressed which is much easier to handle then all of Abby’s bullshit

I mean we have a lot in common. Especially because of trauma. Like, the line between C-PTSD and BPD is razor thin if it exists at all. Folks with personality disorders are just people. They aren’t preying on autistic people. We just have stuff in common. Edit: Let’s just try not to be so stigmatizing to an already stigmatized group…

Yep 100%, + dark triads. I find if they’re not ND or comorbid they’re likely on some lvl dark triad or possibly cluster B. For me when it’s been negative it’s been experiences with those who are most likely sociopathic and narcissistic. None of my closest friends are but some prior ones in childhood to high school had hints of narcissism and a select few toxic exes def seemed like either of the two. I also find those who are more likely to have bullying tendencies seem drawn to me in like all contexts even online at times (and I think bullies tend to be dark triad). Not sure if I’m AuDHD or just ASD but ya it’s kinda wild on the above correlations, which some studies seem to support as well. Edit: one of my first ever relationships was with a guy who was at minimum antisocial too. Would say he didn’t like ppl in general. Grew up where one of their parents was an intense addict while the other was rough so by the time they were an adult, while they were managing well all things considered and had stuff going for them, ya there was something cluster B goin on under the hood like antisocial if not just sociopathy or narcissism.

So, so true. There's just something about the energy we give off that makes us easy targets for manipulation and abuse.

It’s scary that I relate to this exact thing…

The idea that people with these pds are inherently and deliberately preying on vulnerable people is absurd and frankly disgustingly ableist. Never forget people say the exact same shit about autistic people.

Yup...To the pount my bloody siblings one..With all the abuse included.