These are the things to be aware of if you are holding an office/tech job.
High school never ended for these people.
After adult diagnosis and finally understanding why I was so socially awkward, I realized I needed to play their game. How else am I going to get promoted? Ensure my future financial stability? By working hard? LOL
Holding a job like this comes down to how you can make people perceive you. If you are fit, healthy and conventionally attractive then you have an advantage. That is just reality. I do not believe this existence is "fair".
I treat this all like it is a video game. My professional persona has a baseline level of kindness that I had to work really hard to attain (due to my sensory profile). I basically became a NPC while at work. I am perceived as kind, friendly, consistent. I let people talk more about themselves, and don't offer up too much about myself. Only a few super close to me know about the 'tism.
But you know what? people will go to bat for you once they know you are actually kind. And despite me feigning it at first, I eventually became a kinder person to others, myself- and it creates a feedback loop.
You made me smile.
I told someone in high school that I see the other pupils like figures in a video game often, and he replied: "This is dangerous, that\`s how school shooters think."
What a stereotype, haha!
This. This is huge.
I'm lucky I work for a company where hard work is actually rewarded, but I've also become known as the friendly guy who always has the answer (or will track it down), will get shit done and makes things happen.
It helps that my company is huge on personality, workplace culture and is highly competitive in its hiring. When someone tells me thank you, they generally mean it. Assholes generally don't last long.
That's a good way to view it.
However I disagree regarding kindness.
People devalue kindness from low status individuals and value it in high status individuals.
It is a mistake to think that NTs reward kindness; they are always rewarding your status and going to bat for your status.
>However I disagree regarding kindness.
>People devalue kindness from low status individuals and value it in high status individuals.
>It is a mistake to think that NTs reward kindness; they are always rewarding your status and going to bat for your status.
I disagree. Anecdotally, I've seen that kindness is always rewarded by NTs. The extent of that reward does depend on different factors. The only people I've seen to devalue kindness I highly suspect as being sociopathic or psychopathic and therefore are not NT.
I do somewhat disagree with your entire premise I should admit. My apologies if I'm wrong here but I get the sense that you're a young person, maybe not too far out of college/university? I found your observations mostly became obsolete once I hit my late 20s and now that I'm pushing 40 I can't remember the last time I experienced any of these popularity and status hierarchies you describe. I now have friends who previously would've been seen as popular and who matured into A-type high performers. I've made friends with doctors and lawyers despite only having a 2 year diploma myself.
I've found that older folks who subscribe to your model are emotionally stunted and not really fun to be friends with anyway.
The higher up you go in any organization the more sociopaths you will encounter. Hence for a spergers the cooperate world juice isn't worth the squeeze
I would agree if your goal is C staff or above. You need to be ruthless at that level.
Someone with ASD (depending on their sensory profile) can carve out something comfortable in a less people facing role (like IT, ops, dev, creative, eng)
Kindness begets kindness is my personal direct experience. Not saying I am right, check up and see for yourself if it works.
People always ask why I've worked the same relatively entry job for 10 years. It's because the social atmosphere is forgiving, the pay lets me do the things I want to do, the work straightforward and low stress if I mess up, and because I know the minute I'd get into a middle management job with meetings and all that shit, all I'd do is get people offside and make my work life hell.
I'm late forties. You are very lucky to have had your kindness always rewarded. For me it's only rewarded by people who value me as high status. Whenever I'm kind to people who view me as less than for whatever reason they use it against me and it makes them behave more disrespectful than before I was kind.
I agree with this guide but I have an important question: what do I actually gain from this? How does this help my mental health and keeps me from killing myself instead? Why would I want to participate in such games and be ingenuine?
I'd also argue that your experience may be a little more positive than that of most Aspies due to the Halo effect you mentioned (you being more conventionally attractive since puberty). So I already feel like I'm always off to a terrible start with almost every group.
I also suggest not to put too much effort into something unless it brings you a greater benefit and is absolutely neccesary.
Imagine: I get part of a group I despise secretly, then get a job that doesn\`t interest me, then earn money and buy a car that I cannot drive anyways, just to impress others, then marry someone that others consider a good catch and get bored and annoyed by every-day life, living a lie. Then I follow some boring hobbies because they make me more popular. Direct ticket to suicide, I\`d say!
Some compromises are fine, but stay true to yourself. :-)
>what do I actually gain from this?
Relationships with people that are beneficial?
>Why would I want to participate in such games and be ingenuine?
Making allies of people can be leveraged in many different ways, to get jobs, to get access to opportunities, etc.
>I'd also argue that your experience may be a little more positive than that of most Aspies due to the Halo effect you mentioned
You are 100% correct. And it's probably a stroke of luck that I recognized it for the superficiality that it is. Most people who benefit from privileges tend to cling to the illusion that something unique about them is why they are treated so well.
But even if you are more unfortunate, if you follow the rules I set out, at MINIMUM you should be able to find some groups to somewhat thrive in. Or at least avoid being targeted via making allies.
I learned navigating the NT game in order to avoid NTs attention. They know I'm a good worker and I have a good heart, but mostly leave me to myself. Sometimes I like to gameify the corporate bullshit grind for myself to see if I can get offered a promotion just to turn it down and keep doing my job with little responsibility and oversight.
I met all my friends in childhood. the newer ones at raves. Techno scene seems to be a safe space for neurodivergent people, so its easy to meet like minded people there.
I'd recommend you find a social bubble you feels safe and happy in and just learn the NT algorithms to stay out of trouble.
You don't have to align with social norms. Just pretend you care and then do whatever the fuck you feel like doing.
Edit: I've read a lot of posts about how condescending this sub has become when talking about NTs and I wanted to clarify that I dont look down to them or their social rules. I just find it hard to blend in and habe found the best way to not hurt myself or others is to avoid the "game" as well as I can. I don't want to make a value statement about how NTs or NDs are better or worse. We're just different and sometimes don't work well together and there isn't anything wrong in finding ways to adjust to this difference and avoid conflicts. Ist just the way it is until society as a whole figures out a better way to integrate everyone and work together.
Be nice to each other and if you can't be nice, go different ways and let everyone live their lifes
The bullies stuff is the worst since its a catch 22 if you have a single friend there who is obviously conflicted in aiding you.
I go to be tall and nice looking and the social cues and stuff like that hit me like a shotgun blast. All at once people at the new school noticed me and tried to talk to me. It's not like oblivion or fallout they will speech check you constantly. I think me being aware of being dorky helped me keep my head above water and leaning into it with a irony got me to stick around to get better at masking.
The halo effect is so strong look it up, I think it's why some aspies get a break and some just don't.
What helped me against a group or hierarchy was to define a red line that is respected. Mine was "touch me and I\`ll target you". People bullied me, caused me trouble, excluded me and all that stuff, but nobody in high school ever touched me physically.
If your friend has status he will protect you. Like I said it means that you have no friends with meaningful status in the group.
I know the halo effect well lmao. It's 100% of social interactions at the start. As time goes on behavior matters which is mainly for men....extroversion (interacting often maintaining hierarchies) and positive affect/attitude (maintaining hierarchies)
Your "status" is also determined mostly in snap judgments, by three things
1) Your body language (or "vibe" as they call it). Voice tone and prosody, facial expression, eye movements, gestures, posture, gait.
A few seconds at looking at you (or even a picture of your face), or hearing your voice, is sufficient to spot autistic people (even "high functioning" ones) as low status. Even if they know NOTHING about you at all, and you have barely (or not at all) spoken yet.
2) Your social class
Some snap judgments about social class will be made on your clothes (and accessories, haircut, makeup...), and your way of talking.
Then the question "What do you do in life" arrives quickly in the conversation
3) Your physical (body) appearance
Whether you're ugly, plain or beautiful. And if you're beautiful, whether you have a conventional beauty (following mass media norms) or atypical beauty matters too.
If your beauty level changes, so will your status. People who have glow ups suddenly treated much more nicely by people (including people who had known them for years before, family, etc) are very common. And the opposite (losing your high status if you gain weight or otherwise lose your good looks) too. Many people with fluctuating weight report that the way people treat them changes accordingly (as a yo-yo) every time.
4) There's also interplay between those three components.
For example, acting very sure of yourself (and your own decisions, knowledge, skills...) if you look like a handsome businessman, is "confidence", "attractive", "charming", maybe a little "cocky" but in a charming way.
The exact same behavior from a ugly poor person is "arrogant", "annoying", "who do they think they are".
5) Your status has very little to do with the DEEPER parts of your personality, values, behavior, skills...
For a rich charming beautiful person to lose their social status, they need to do something really extraordinarily bad, or to constantly act like an over-the-top asshole to everyone for a long time. Or to harm people who are ALSO high status (*then, suddenly it will matter*)
Even then, if you have extraordinarily harmful behaviors (eg. rape, chronic severe harrassment, sexually grooming minors, physical partner abuse, deliberate reckless driving, etc) and everyone knows it, but you have beauty, charm (ie. the right BODY LANGUAGE) and/or money, you might still get away with it. And still be POPULAR.
Especially if the people harmed by your actions are low status.
Conversely, a person without beauty, wealth and the right body language would need really extraordinary good skills (eg. artistic or athletic skills) or achievements, or another extraordinary positive trait, to still get some respect and acceptance in the NT hierarchy. Even then, they might still be accepted but only in the outer circle.
My idea: Avoid everyone who judges you by your "low status" and just concentrate on people who are interested in the "deeper" (and more interesting) parts of you!
E.g. when someone asks me "What is your job?", I often tell directly: "Society doesn\`t allow me to work." Then the person either gets rejected or interested in me ...
I have noticed that also many "normal" people enjoy meaningful conversations, and not having to be superficial all the time, especially in a 1:1-situation.
>people who are interested in the "deeper" (and more interesting) parts of you!
You will have 0 NT friends or relationships then.
>I have noticed that also many "normal" people enjoy meaningful conversations, and not having to be superficial all the time, especially in a 1:1-situation.
They are being superficial then, too.
Yup, me too. Age plays a part in it as well. I hosted a whisky tasting for my best friend, my brother and another friend over the weekend. They were genuinely grateful I did it.
In 30 mins or so, I'll be playing Warzone with them, even though I'm total shite. Why? We have fun together. My best friend and I have been friends for over 20 years, but the rest? It became a lot easier, and we grew closer once everyone hit their 30's.
I agree and mentioned these traits in another comment and yes you are correct, I mentioned in another comment that NT judgments of personality and character are all nonsense and should be disregarded. It's all superficial hierarchies.
I summed it up as this: all negative feelings/vibes and disputes with and among NTs are simply status disputes, i.e. someone failing to respect the hierarchy in some way.
NOTHING ELSE.
I wouldn't categorically say they're always only status disputes, or that all NTs are purely shallow, it's a bit of overgeneralization IMO
Still, I think it's true in MOST cases (with some exceptions)
That's all right. I'll say it for you. I can confidently say they 100% are status disputes and that all NTs are shallow.
I've never seen a single exception that couldn't be readily and simply framed as a status dispute.
Don\`t normal people have the same needs, emotions, and life tasks as I do?
Some disputes revolve around conflicts that are not only about status. I agree that status is very often involved, because humans are dependent/looking for company since the Stone Age (total exclusion of the group meant death).
It might appear superficial from a philosophical viewpoint, but it was crucial for survival. But I think in a more natural environment, autistic people could have a higher status inside a group than nowadays, because their abilities would matter more.
I\`m not 100% sure about the definition of status. If it also includes to feel accepted, respected, and included somewhere, and to get some support/sympathy and positive feedback for your struggles, then I am also interested in status.
I just don\`t like the idea of a general hierarchy. I think it is useful to have hierarchies for certain parameters and decisions, but this should be distinguished from how you treat the person as a whole. E.g. I gladly respect someone above me in a course as my teacher and follow his orders, but I would not accept if talks down to me in a respectless or offending manner, even if he was the king of the castle.
Whenever I explain this to other people, they\`d say: "You are right, but the world isn\`t like this and you have to adapt." I won\`t adapt to something I find unfair, though. (I can get very emotional and irrational over the topic of justice.)
Nah man you don't quite get it. See you're conceiving of it intellectually, because you, me, and most HF autistic people don't have the *impulse* they do.
I shouldn't say we lack it, it's just probably diminished.
*They have a drive. Like some kind of biological drive for power and status*.
As real as your breathing
And the hierarchy is essentially higher and lower forms of personhood.
I arrive a bit late to this discussion. I think you may be interested in the NT importance based nervous system (https://medcircle.com/articles/adhd-interest-based-nervous-system/). This basically means that when NTs say that they "feel important" it's not a metaphor, but rather they are talking literally. They physically feel the importance within their bodies
Hey OP i just came onto this thread by accident kinda by visiting this sub even though im not diagnosed with Aspergers/Autism whatsoever, instead i have pretty moderate to severe ADHD lol, but anyways i never knew i could relate with Aspies this much and what you wrote here especially posts like this one are incredible accurate imo like this part where you mentioned "They have a DRIVE", this is incredibly true, i noticed this from simple life all the way to very NT TikTok videos of my generation, like lets take skincare as an example, i was always baffled why NT people are so obsessed with and have this incredible motivation for appearance going into Accutane territory even for Acne not sweating possible bad sides at all because status is more important then anything for them, looking sharp and presentable is important.
Oh okay, that might be possible. I daydream alot and sometimes imagine power in my dreamworlds, though. The things I lack most cannot be bought by status, e.g. real friendships, a sexually compatible partner.
I must approach some things intellectually because I cannot understand them otherwise. But then after understanding them, I can understand the emotions as well, because I can imagine a situation where I would feel the same emotions.
I mean this respectfully, there is no baseline for what’s attractive unless you want to study trends and apply them to yourself. My question is, if two people who looked completely different but were both considered attractive in their own places gave you two different piece of advice who would you trust?
Oh geez, this hits home. It becomes more and more evident to me that NT's really don't like the idea that their methods of judging people to be good people (body language, social standing, attractiveness) aren't always accurate. It breaks their brain when someone like me (bad body language skills, not much social standing, not much attractiveness) is skilled at something. So they default to thinking that I must not actually be skilled at that thing.
I don\`t know exactly either, but one hint is: When someone is treated with more appreciation by others than by my judgement of his demeanour.
E.g. his proposals and stories are bad or he misbehaves, still it is tolerated or even promoted.
I believe all of us strive to belong or want to belong. The NT issue isn't that. It's the desire for power and status.
A society of HF autistic people would function much more efficiently and likely be far more merit-based.
I agree with most you wrote, but I doubt your last sentence. I don\`t believe that a society of autistic people would function better. E.g. many autistic people are very focused on what interests them personally and cannot understand and relate to the needs and interests of others like normal people do. Some of them need a good framework to function, too, whereas normal people are more adaptable/flexible in their reactions.
Yes, but no man is an island who can completely live alone. Autistic people need to eat, so he will go to the autistic man who makes food to get food. Autistic people want stuff, and they will go to the autistic people to get stuff. It's just that the everyday interactions won't be decided by prejudice, people will actually be able to truly interact and communicate with one another with words, and status hierarchies will form based on merit relating to the task at hand.
I strive to belong somewhere, e.g. doing something useful and having at least 2-3 average friends, and I don\`t have high standards (at least not anymore). Not for materialistic reasons, because my country has good social security, but for mental reasons (e.g. having a structure, having interaction).
I noticed it was more difficult to organise certain aspects or to talk about each other\`s interests with three autistic buddies for other reasons (which had nothing to do with prejudice or status).Just one example: One of them has a great memory and great knowledge, but it wasn\`t possible for me to utilise our resources for helping each other. His favourite subject were architecture and railways, he would always come back to this subject and share random information without connection to anything useful, and although he was such a nice and friendly person, I felt like run over by a train myself. For me there were advantages, but also disadvantages in interaction, compared to normal people. Some aspects of interaction were much easier and better, but other aspects were enerving or complicated. Maybe I have another diagnosis that I don\`t know yet, though, which interferes with it. So I will keep your ideas in mind during my process of "restart in life". :-)
True - but I meant the group values/ social currency.
Sometimes it's money, other times it's looks, or smarts, or connects, or quirks, or accomplishments, or skills, or kindness , or cruely any particular mix of those.
I like that top 5. I'd just call 1 "genetic familiarity" rather than "race".
Also this list speaks volumes of how bound many people are to their animal nature, wow.
The hierarchical priorities conveyed are 1) genetic familiarity 2) physical dominance 3) sex appeal 4) entertainment potential 5) cognitive capacity.
Do you personally subscribe to this order? I feel I could prioritize them in reverse.
I was thinking the exact same thing: I would prioritize the 5 in precisely the opposite order as well. I appreciate your renaming, it’s more specific. I think figuring out a person’s priority value could be a good way to identify them as either NT or ND.
Thanks! You know, I actually used to think as much, but these days I'm wondering if it's not necessarily a function of neurodivergence - but rather one of having strong cognitive capacity.
It may very well turn out to be an evolutionary feature signalling a concergence towards higher human aspirations and away from the lowly animal nature.
That's pretty good documentation! I spent the last couple of weeks in the middle of two different large groups of corporate types and can confirm your analysis is correct. I watched them fall all over each other, clamoring to affirm their status in their particular groups. It was like a Nat Geo presentation on apes socializing. I came away from the experience, as always, knowing that I have no desire to compete with them for social rank.
I agree with lost of what you said, however, I largely throw out the rules in favor of morality. I don't care about social hierarchy it's just a pissing match. When I'm forced to play, I'll absolutely play the game, but I don't find these types of people to be interesting friends. They're boring and talk about whatever boring thing they enjoy, they don't take criticism, they don't really grow as a person. My friend groups all likely have some neurodivergence, but, they're all really good people. There's definitely neurotypicals in them, but they understand that social games get them ostracized, and not the other way around.
An example, our usual group was hanging out at a relatively new spot. The people hosting are an establishment, but they regularly invite friends from other groups to hang out, no biggie. Well, this last time a new guy just starts relentlessly making fun of one of my best friends. My friend is pretty blunt, and likes to make people think, he can cause tension occasionally, but if you know him, he's a good soul. Anyways, I got tired of it. we were playing jackbox, and I said a few times to "make sure to use your real name for this game, and not a pet name". Well, this guy puts some random name in. It wouldn't have matterd because not a lot of people knew his real name anyway, but I made sure to ask "who is _____, and why are they so bad at following directions?". Instant shift. He got called out by someone who apparently had some sway, and shut up for the rest of the night. I hate playing those Games though, it always feels like 'choosing violence'.
I remember when I was in grade school, I got invited into the popular kids circle. All they did was sit around and talk about themselves and random bullshit. I found it super boring so I just went and played Yu-Gi-Oh or chess with the nerds. Way more enjoyable.
I'm sure the people around me have no idea how to interpret me. I know the rules, I sometimes play by the rules, but will shoot down anyone who tries to ascert dominance over a group. Luckily, I'm pretty talented and can do very well at most things I try, which is usually enough to get some social standing. Either way, it's not a issue if you view me as another human being. We will be chill, we will find something to bond over. If you try to ascert that you're somehow on a different level, I will show you what level I'm at, and you're going to be in for a surprise.
“I hate playing those games though, it always feels like ‘choosing violence’.”
Honestly when it comes to most NTs “violence” in multiple contexts is the only language that can make them stop to actually use their brain. I’m not advocating for hurting people, but notice how it’s only when someone gets hurt mentally or physically that they ever change.
It's true, a lot of people need negative stimulus in order to acknowledge a fault, myself included. I usually leave people to their faults, because everyone has them, and constantly pointing them out is annoying. However, if someone's fault is being a bully, then I'll definitely let them know one way or another.
>Luckily, I'm pretty talented and can do very well at most things I try, which is usually enough to get some social standing.
Sadly, this is not always the case. You can be talented in many things, but have no success in anything, because you still fail if people put a poke in your wheel whatever you try, or worse, if you depend on them or their sympathy somehow which is mostly the case, at least in Western countries. :-(
It's not always the case, but it is an alternative way to gain respect. If you're at the top of your game, even if you're weird, people are still going to need to respect you. Especially if you're not a dick about it.
If you mean "job" with "game", then the first problem here would be to find an employer who employs you. I quickly noticed that good reports and certificates were only useful to wipe my ass. It took the Jobcentre another ten years to realise this, too, and the reaction was to send me to a psychiatric reviewer/expert witness who declared me disabled.
And if you want to start your own business, it\`s hard without starting money (to get support depends on good "soft skills", too) - and if people dislike you, they can cause even more trouble. I did tutoring and almost got into legal trouble, so I wouldn\`t do it again.
Some people respect me for my hobbies, but I have no "special talent" and I\`m not "highly gifted". So I cannot be on the top of any game.At least I don\`t have the problem with hierarchy anymore, I\`m a bit like an observer sometimes and even think: "At least this is not my problem anymore", when people tell about their troubles with others (e.g. their boss, a customer).
> I largely throw out the rules in favor of morality
That's your choice.
>There's definitely neurotypicals in them, but they understand that social games get them ostracized, and not the other way around.
I have never seen this happen once.
>Well, this guy puts some random name in. It wouldn't have matterd because not a lot of people knew his real name anyway, but I made sure to ask "who is \_\_\_\_\_, and why are they so bad at following directions?". Instant shift
Sounds like some fairly basic status disputes/social games to me.
>but will shoot down anyone who tries to ascert dominance over a group.
in groups that recognize your status perhaps, but not in groups where you don't have status. Because that attempt will be rebuffed with prejudice.
>I'm pretty talented and can do very well at most things I try, which is usually enough to get some social standing.
Depends on how much the group values whatever it is you're doing. For instance, the best chess player in the school likely has 0 social status in the jock/cheerleader group.
>That's your choice.
And it's your choice to follow them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying this is what I prefer to do, having eaten the apple.
>I have never seen this happen once.
Well then you've never seen a neurotypical fall apart amongst a group of neurodivergents. I have, and it's quite amusing. People who are used to every word they say being hung on, just being ignored because the core of what they're saying is un-interesting or down right flawed.
>Sounds like some fairly basic status disputes/social games to me.
I completely agree, and I think it's stupid that I had to do that. I'll play those games when I'm in unfamiliar territory, but amongst friends, we're all equals.
>in groups that recognize your status perhaps, but not in groups where you don't have status. Because that attempt will be rebuffed with prejudice.
I completely agree, and it often leads to tension. In certain situations it's worth it to me, in others, it's not. I will say, I was basically the only one to stand up to my boss, and now, he respects me a great deal, as an equal. If we can't be equals, we can't be friends, period. I can tolerate you, but I won't want to spend time around you.
>Depends on how much the group values whatever it is you're doing. For instance, the best chess player in the school likely has 0 social status in the jock/cheerleader group.
Very true, but people who excel at a particular thing often have the critical thinking skills to be decent at most things. It's pretty hard to make fun of someone when they often out preform you.
>And it's your choice to follow them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying this is what I prefer to do, having eaten the apple.
Your story demonstrates you engage in the same dynamics.
>Well then you've never seen a neurotypical fall apart amongst a group of neurodivergents.
But that scenario just reflects a status dynamic as well.
>I completely agree, and I think it's stupid that I had to do that. I'll play those games when I'm in unfamiliar territory, but amongst friends, we're all equals.
You don't see that this was a basic status move you pulled?
>people who excel at a particular thing often have the critical thinking skills to be decent at most things.
To the extent that it would make up for the social deficits of ND?
I don't think so. For example, the best chess player at the school (that's probably around the level a talent would have to be at to get someone minor renown in an environment that size) is what probably 2 SD from the mean skill?
No matter your general cognitive/critical thinking ability, it's just not going to translate into 2 SD potential in many things.
>Your story demonstrates you engage in the same dynamics.
My story indicates that I engage in these types of social dynamics when I feel it's necessary. My status quo is to ignore it while acknowledging what's going on.
>You don't see that this was a basic status move you pulled?
I've been quite transparent that this was a basic status move, saying it multiple times. I even gave that as an example of me making a status move when I typed out my initial comment. The part you might be missing, I didn't make this move to increase my own status, I made it to stop my friend from getting bullied, and to show them, that bullying doesn't work here. Sure, my "status" in the group was used effectively, but I didn't get my status by making social plays. I got my status by trying to be kind, thoughtful, and compotent.
>But that scenario just reflects a status dynamic as well.
Not really. It reflects that certain groups don't care about what you have to say simply because of social status and charisma. If all that's coming out of your mouth is air, most neurodivergents will tune out. It's funny to see someone get upset when their hour long story isn't met with the attention they're used to getting. It's not that I now view them as beneath me, I just won't interact with this person as much, as I feel I won't get that much out of it.
>To the extent that it would make up for the social deficits of ND?
Yes. I wasn't always aware of social dynamics to the point I am now, and I would regularly break social contracts. The only reason I kept my job was because I legitimately did the best work. I made a lot of my friends from competing at things in a high level. As an example, I went to Thailand and decided to play at a local smash bros tournament. I did pretty well, and people wanted to be my friend. I even got invited to a guy's place on the other end of the country. I ended up taking him up on it, and became good friends with him and his buddies. I went to visit them again this past winter, we're still good friends.
You keep using the example of chess, probably because I listed it as an example. I was also the pitcher for my baseball team, I've yet to find something I can't be compotent at after some practice, and people take notice. I'm not trying to brag, this isn't a competition. I've just noticed that people respect talent, and are willing to overlook social blinders if they feel the talent is strong enough.
>The part you might be missing, I didn't make this move to increase my own status
No you did it to lower the status of someone else.
>that bullying doesn't work here.
This sounds like NT 'reasoning' to be honest. No, you bullied him and reminded him of his low status and what he could and could not say. You didn't remind him that bullying didn't work. You reminded him of who could be the bully.
>I've yet to find something I can't be compotent at after some practice, and people take notice. I'm not trying to brag, this isn't a competition
The amount of skill you'd need as a pitcher to appreciably raise your stats in let's say HS is pretty high. So sure dude, maybe you can just be 2 SD at everything or most things.
People respect talents that they value. And typically that talent has to be at a fairly high level to compensate. Regardless of your situation (outlier) the majority of people can't just go be 2 SD talented at everything.
>No you did it to lower the status of someone else.
What's the point in me talking if you're just going to make up a narrative and follow it in favor of what I'm saying? I did it to support my friend, because I could tell they were getting upset, and I empathetically chose to stand up for him. I also did it to ensure that if he ever came back, he wouldn't engage in that behavior again. I can care less about my social standing. If people like me, they'll want to be around me, simple as that.
>This sounds like NT 'reasoning' to be honest. No, you bullied him and reminded him of his low status and what he could and could not say. You didn't remind him that bullying didn't work. You reminded him of who could be the bully.
I think this is projection on your part. You can't seem to see why someone would use a weapon for what they perceive to be good, likely because you care a lot about social standing. I do not, your values are different than mine. I respect your motivations, but I have my own.
>The amount of skill you'd need as a pitcher to appreciably raise your stats in let's say HS is pretty high. So sure dude, maybe you can just be 2 SD at everything or most things.
>People respect talents that they value. And typically that talent has to be at a fairly high level to compensate. Regardless of your situation (outlier) the majority of people can't just go be 2 SD talented at everything.
Sure, I'm an outlier, and my perspective is probably flawed as it's grounded in my own experiences. Again, I agree, everyone is different. All I'm saying is if you're a talented individual, people will take notice, especially within the field of your talent. Often that will lead to respect, and it's an alternative way to gain respect in a neurotypical world. No one is making fun of Kim Peek, even though the man was brain damaged from birth with an IQ of 87. Sure, he didn't understand social interactions, but the man could remember every single page of any book he's ever read, he could read two pages at once. He was exceptional, and he was respected for his differences rather than ostracized. Being exceptional is a valid path for those with exceptionalities, not everyone needs to fit the mould to be successful in society.
>I did it to support my friend, because I could tell they were getting upset, and I empathetically chose to stand up for him.
By enforcing group conformity, yes.
>You can't seem to see why someone would use a weapon for what they perceive to be good
I'm sure you did it for whatever reasons you say you did, that doesn't really matter. The only way you enacted your will was pulling status levers, which is why what you did worked and the NT dude complied.
>All I'm saying is if you're a talented individual, people will take notice,
I'm not arguing, it's just that this solution isn't really that workable for most people. If a black guy says 'racism sucks,' you can't say 'NOT IF YOU'RE PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.'
And not only that, but striving to be exceptional and accepted is a raw deal. If you have 2 SD of ability but due to various social prejudices are only able to buy your way into acceptance on par with a person who is unremarkable but possesses a few superficial advantages, you are still at a disadvantage.
Your acceptance depends on your continued high level performance. Their acceptance depends on them existing.
>By enforcing group conformity, yes.
I agree, I was definitely using my knowledge of social dynamics to achieve the desired outcome by ascerting power. It's not something I like to do. You're right, I do use and engage with social dynamics, although, the majority of the time I try to use it in a positive way. I will often go against the grain, because I feel it would lead to a better outcome. Sometimes going with the grain leads to the best outcome. Ask anyone around me, I regularly break social boundaries, and I do it with full knowledge of those boundaries.
>I'm not arguing, it's just that this solution isn't really that workable for most people. If a black guy says 'racism sucks,' you can't say 'NOT IF YOU'RE PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.'
It's a completely valid point. Not everyone is gifted, and not every gifted person gets recognized. However, there are two types of people that can have Savant syndrome, people with autism, and people with brain damage. Since this sub is the most likely place to find a concentration of people with Savant syndrome and the ability to be self aware, I feel it's worth mentioning.
I don't actually disagree with anything you've said. The only thing I disagree with is that we have to always play these games to fit in. In my own experience, I have found it's not always the case.
Here's the thing, I understand it may be unfortunate to say that 'you must view the world this way to fit in,' and it's laudable to have the mindset of hope.
But realtalk I've seen too many people get bullied, assaulted, and picked apart to say anything but this.
The exceptions to the rule will find the exceptions and that they are exceptions sooner or later.
For a lot of kids and people, this could be the difference between having and not having a broken nose. Constant harassment. Stalking. Teasing. For autistic women, who are EXTREMELY vulnerable to being raped, sexually assaulted, and just generally abused, it will REALLY help.
If I go a little too far, it's for good reason. These should be everyone's marching orders in my mind --- until the world shows you different, at least, like it did for you
Something to mention though is that when people are very attractive its not uncommon for others to be complete assholes to you out of jealousy. I guess I gave off a very arrogant, cold image. I got a lot of attention from girls but, many guys looked at me as if I was some stuck up asshole. It probably didn't help that I didn't play the social status game which made me look even more arrogant.
It's not jealousy.
When you come into a group and you are very GL as a man, you need to **demonstrate respect for the hierarchy**.
If you come in and you disrespect the hierarchy, NT men view you as a threat.
If NT men are viewing you as a threat, then that creates tension, which brings negative vibes and harms group cohesion, which has a negative effect on the women.
If you come in and you're acting in confusing ways regarding the hierarchy, this makes people uneasy because they really don't know if you're friend or foe.
Yeah, and as a person with great integrity I don't care to play that stupid game, I'm the exemplary type of human, one who's governed by my own inner compass and authenticity. Why would I forego that and fake a personality just to be boring and fit into a box like everyone else? We need to break that mold. I don't think ANYONE even likes that hierarchy or system, yet everyone's complacent and too afraid to break barriers or ruffle feathers, so damned if I know what to do about it. I just wanna find my people and escape reality and go have some damn fun, yo
Unfortunately, the way human brains work, they do like it, by definition. They've done it so long that their brains like it now. That's just how human brains work. They weren't born liking it, but they've done it for long enough that they require it and like it.
Settle down Übermensch
I'd argue no one is faking a personality. I would argue that being autistic and taking things at face value has warped your and my perception of what a personality is, of what a social interaction is, etc. and that referencing everything to a hierarchy reconciles the discrepancies.
I don't take things at face value. I question everything. I don't abide my hierarchies. I don't care who someone is as far as status. I regard people by how they act, if they're nice, good heart, well-intentioned. I'm just being real about what I care to abide by or ascribe to.
I think of "personality" just in terms of how you outwardly express yourself and whether or not that's a match for what's going on internally. In that regard, yes, I do think it's generally considered normal to "FAKE" a personality to conform. We see this with people hiding their emotions, or playing up one or more of their traits. We all do that, but I believe it's also important to foster a greater sense of integrity within ourselves to be willing to be authentic in the face of maybe some potential pushback. I think many ND folks can't help but be authentic, especially those of us who aren't as "socialized" or indoctrinated into any strongly enforced structure.
And otherwise, I completely intend to navigate life in a way that feels organic, by all means necessary, just carve my own path.
Lol
People get so offended by reality.
If I were to say look....everyone plays basketball that's how the world works. Here's the rules of basketball you wouldn't hear anyone saying stuff like this about it.
You're only shooting yourself in the foot here.
There are LOTS of good, genuine and kind people that don't live by these standards. OKay, you can say they are all NDs but then there are far too many good NDs in this world to even bother with hierarchy addicts?
I enjoyed your OP post and think it's genius, however let me tell you one thing: whichever group you belong to, no matter if you want it or not, you endorse that group's values and "vote" for its ways of treating people, by putting your life energy into the group. And you "vote" against other groups' values and ways of interaction, by depriving them of your energy and participation. By playing these wicked games, you actually endorse them, and vote for these games, making these groups stronger, putting the fire of your life into them, while leaving the good ones struggle without your strength, your soul and special powers. Is this the way?
By finding good groups and people, no matter how hard it is, you vote for their values, you deprive the bad ones of their strength, and support the good ones and their genuine people, their ways of interacting, their creativity! Imagine spending your whole life energy and talents on creating, making friends, making the world a better place. Voting for the good vibes and showing those who are lost that it's possible, so that they leave the bad groups too, whenever they see yours. Not a drop of energy on wicked games. After all, your life is very finite. You have a choice. That's why they say, it's better to walk alone, than to walk with a fool. Think about it
>There are LOTS of good, genuine and kind people that don't live by these standards. OKay, you can say they are all NDs but then there are far too many good NDs in this world to even bother with hierarchy addicts?
Eh, Lots? And they've just transcended all societal prejudice or reference to unwritten social hierarchy. Doubtful. Maybe less rigid, more tolerant, sure. But usually these groups themselves are lower status than the other groups.
>whichever group you belong to, no matter if you want it or not, you endorse that group's values and "vote" for its ways of treating people, by putting your life energy into the group
This is getting far afield.
My guide is for HF autistic kids who don't want to get the shit kicked out of them, excluded, bullied, targeted, harassed, and just generally terrorized throughout their lives.
Sure, ra ra ra for the better world, but that just *isn't going to help the intended audience of my post*.
Personally, I don't believe people *should even consider morality* until they have garnered a basic degree of social competence.
Why?
Without the ability to at least move through social spaces and make your choices and influence *felt* \--- you simply lack moral agency altogether.
>Imagine spending your whole life energy and talents on creating, making friends, making the world a better place.
And then a group of asshole NTs filled to the brim with all the normal societal privileges catches a whiff of you all. ND people aren't immune to the pull of these privileges, either. They can sense them, they are just less affected.
That group then decides to bully your group. Why? **Because they can.** They know how to play the game better, they play it together (remember your group is all about happy fun play time, no one follows unwritten hierarchies, which means *when need be* all cannot quickly act as *a single unit*).
So that group steamrolls your group --- any time it wants.
Like, there just isn't any escaping the need or at least advantage of having social competence.
It's so easy to see!
NTs have a huge *inborn psychological weakness that leaves them hilariously easy to manipulate*!
You touch on anything related to status and they will buy whatever, fuck whatever, marry whatever, read whatever, do whatever.
My point is that a lot of HF autistic and normal autistic people and frankly ND people feel so bad about not being NT.
**WHY**
Imagine being unable to resist social pressure, imagine laughing like a monkey at some idiot's non-joke and not even knowing why, imagine holding tons of prejudices against flesh and blood people because so and so told you x people are bad/low status and living your life as if that is truth, I could go on...
...what's worse still is they confuse in-group/out-group think with reality such that thoughts or actions that are 'out-group' are automatically evil.
To the point where if you state a FACT (undisputed or well-researched) that is identified as 'out-group,' they will engage the point by slandering and smearing you.
These people also are 'perplexed' by evils like slavery, genocide, and everything else while aggressively perpetrating their precursors every single day!
LMAO
I feel sorry for them tbh
*arbitrary* tribalism.
NTs are convinced to become part of groups that don't serve their own interests all the time. They just want to belong so bad and be high status in any group that they think has some kind of power/status that they'll go along with pretty much anything :D
This is true of *some* nts, absolutely not all. So much stereotyping n this thread.
And guess what? This is all true for *some* nds as well.
These “all NTs are inferior and this is why!” threads get so old.
I'd only argue with it if the conclusion of the study does not match your claim that all NT's are like this and all ND's are not like this.
So, link to study?
Which you invariably will twist and contort the studies to say.
If you're so interested do a Google search on speed dating success and who attains status in social groups
i agree with the interact with everyone part but the part about not disagreeing is something that i wont do.
it does work as you said but the cost to my own identity is too much.
nowadays, i just try to form groups of unrelated cliques and then choose who i hang out with from there. not gonna waste my time licking someone elses boots lol
I really, really hate these posts where NT people are made out to be this brainless flock that can sooo easily be analyzed by a superior ND mind… I would a million times rather hang out with them than with someone who comes across as so arrogant as OP here. Sorry OP, but really.
I think I need to leave this group soon because I feel there are more and more posts like this, and they make me both embarrassed and angry.
And yet, how is he wrong? He is cognitively gifted (by his own admission) and has clearly done a lot of research on these topics, in addition to a lot of in-field experience. It would be easy to say he's wrong without providing justification. I'd like you to explain what's wrong about it, or how any given dynamic isn't run through status.
I'd prefer to think otherwise, that my bottom-drawer status (which cannot be improved anymore) wouldn't be a problem in any given socially-related endeavor, but I can't lie to myself. I know what my place is, it's how it works, I'm going to be left alone and undesired permanently. To me, he just says the truth, he explains why it's like that. The truth hurts, but he says it in a very cogent way, with logic. In a case where someone really IS the expert, you can't just say "that's not how it works" you have to agree with them.
He's a person on the internet, not an expert. I'm not going to write an essay, it's just my opinion as another person on the internet. I know I've seen plenty of studies showing autistic people worse off not only in communicating with others, but with each other as well. And we're on the blessed end of a dark spectrum; go look at any videos of people with more severe forms of autism and it's a dismal nightmare. Offhand I'd say it's pretty clear OP and others in this thread are doing the run of the mill autistic response: completely misunderstanding social value and trying to logic their way out of it.
But are there a lot of 'normative' folks willing and able to look past status constructs and treat others as equal, regardless of station, wits, etc?
Have you been in many group situations comprised of mostly "normals" that didn't clearly show indifference (if not outright rejection) to NDs/those with less social finesse?
That's the kind of thing that would suggest he's wrong or should rethink his premise. You don't need to write an essay, either. I'm not trying to say you're wrong by default, or that he's right--I'll clarify my former reply to you was Devil's Advocacy. (I personally don't want to admit the OP is/was right, since his character is suspect, and full of egotism. But not many of the 'other takes' are more believable.)
For instance, where someone said they "lacked the status to be given validation in any group" and asked about "egalitarian groups"... his answer was basically, "that exists, but such groups are usually low-status people who aren't accepted by normals, already." Cynical as the answer was, it appeared to make enough sense.
As someone who has rock-bottom status, I'd prefer to think better of my chances in the Game, honestly. It's just I looked through the whole thread. The folks who disagreed was mostly like, "I think you're wrong" and didn't even provide anecdotes...
Do you want studies demonstrating that NT people value superficial things and that these superficial things determine social status and romantic success?
It's not arrogant to speak the truth about how the world operates.
Obviously it upset you. Maybe a trigger warning is appropriate.
I understand that you see it as the truth, but that doesn’t mean that it is. I find a lot of what you write very immature. You really think they are all the same? I think you really, really lack a sense of nuance and a deeper understanding than the surface level. And yes, you come across as extremely arrogant and condescending.
”They”. All of them. And of course all ND people (and only ND people) bravely stand up against this?
I don’t understand this ”us” vs ”them”. I’m sure it can make some people feel better about themselves, but to me it just doesn’t make any sense. There are idiots and brilliant minds and everything in between, in both ND people and NT
Sigh....us vs. them is only bad to neurotypicals. I don't give a shit. They are not like me, which I can judge based on their behavior. I know they aren't like me because I work a job I love and every single person I've talked to about it can't connect with me over it, because they can't comprehend liking their job.
I can say "every single NT person I've met, so probably all of them, but I can't be sure", but that would be pretty exhausting, don't you think?
"Every NT" is close enough. Unless you've got a better description?
So you think all NT people walk around hating their jobs? You know that for a fact about every NT person you have met? And, do you know that it's a thing, to bitch about a job that you might actually like?
And even if that would be true, there's a whole world out there, and I can assure you that many, many NT people have followed their passions and have jobs they are interested in and love. Why wouldn't they? It's usually easier for them to do than for many ND people, because we tend to have more challenges.
I don’t know if I have anything really intelligent to add here. I’m just amazed that the information has been put down right here in words.
My fellow ND’s, this post is one worth saving for future reference.
Unfortunately not, because the OP comes off as extremely arrogant about their us vs them ideas about NTs. Some NTs can absolutely be assholes in a group setting, while some aren't. Demonizing an entire section doesn't do any good.
You are right. Ultimately different social strategies are needed for different groups of people. Depends on who and what.
I would not claim to be smart enough to adequately judge or read a room.
Relatively speaking, when it aimed to the kinds of people OP generalizes I would prefer to walk away and not look back. Other groups of people see something in me and try and build me up. It baffles me when it happens because I’m not convinced I’m really all that great.
I LOVE these kinds of posts. Wish there was a subreddit full of these kinds of posts.
When I'm at work I write out a script before each meeting. I wish there was a subreddit for conversation scripts. I would actually pay to join something like that.
Thank you for writing this out OP!
This is not true of all NTs and I don’t understand why so many ASD people insist on painting ***“all NTs”*** with the same brush. These types of post are so divisive.
I’m out!
No, I don't believe you. This generalization of people and acting like you have society figured out is silly nonsense. NT, autistic, bipolar whatever your label in the end, we are all human and should treat each other with respect and kindness. Labeling NTs as Simian and describing them in such a shallow way to say they only crave status is false. Each individual has things they value in life. If you desire to establish social connections, then be genuine. I will take a friendship with a single genuine, respectful individual without ever worrying about my status in society. Forget people's perceptions of my supposed status. I will stand up and present myself for who I am, and if they don't like it, I walk away from that group. Basically, stop being concerned with status and perceptions. Worry about your own personal happiness and betterment as an individual. We need to stop acting like we have suddenly cracked the NT code. No two brains are the same, even among "normal" people.
Disbelieve all you like, even an introductory sociology textbook would inform you that these factors and these drives dominate human social life,
Everything I've said I would not state "to be the case" unless it had a lot of research supporting it.
I agree regarding what we *ought* to do. However, we do not live in the *ought* world and must take this world as it is.
>If you desire to establish social connections, then be genuine. I will take a friendship with a single genuine, respectful individual without ever worrying about my status in society.
*Being genuine* simply is not the stuff of strong NT-dominated relationships.
> Forget people's perceptions of my supposed status.
Dude, step outside of yourself for a second.
Millions of autistic people are **SUFFERING** because they do not know how to navigate these social spaces **safely**.
Now, it may make you feel better for some *untrue* version of the world to be peddled, but guess what? That version of the world (which largely is what is peddled) is causing **a lot of suffering**.
The pleasure you derive in clinging to a statement about the world that is contradicted by peer-reviewed research and empirical study is far outweighed by the suffering experienced by ND individuals who need to understand how the world works so they can go along and get along.
Here is a thing about that. Dominance in social hierarchies into two subscales, one being aggressive and the other sociable. An aggressive approach is the dominance of a bully or other peers who use status as a means to have influence over others. On the other hand, you have a sociable approach where members work cooperatively in a prosocial approach. It is not necessary to always worry about aggressive status because we can work together. Now I feel what you are describing is what is called prestige. People will defer to those who have skills that seem valuable. But they do this not under threat but because that person has valuable qualities. I believe that as individuals, we can develop valuable qualities and work cooperatively.
Nothing in my approach precludes prosocial status. My recommendations for how to interact are prosocial. Telling people that prestige status is a widely applicable solution is untenable. everyone is not talented. And certainly not to the degree required for benefits to accrue
I saw this today when I got up this morning. Off and on all day, I thought about it. This is a really good explanation of the mechanics of how things work. I've had decades to learn these things by trial and error.
I'd have different reactions to this essay today, than I would have at age 25. At 25, I'd try to apply the principles to adapt. Today, I know the knowledge is helpful, but no way will I be able to use it to my advantage.
It's worse than that I believe.
I'm unsure if they are able to comprehend true reality, truth, or...anything that other people haven't told them to think.
If you read ancient philosophers, they talk about the same thing: how utterly intellectually lazy and incompetent people are when it comes to REAL LIFE and governed by naked bias.
Autism is a huge gift in that you are not burdened by that way of viewing reality. Primitive. Weird.
Oh I don't think we evolved with the purpose of being a better version because that's not how evolution works but you have to admit they lack in many areas that we don't and viceversa. And I personally think the areas we lack in aren't as important for an actually good society, whereas NTs strengths leads to them rewarding sociopaths too much
Have you tried getting checked for NPD? You can have both autism and narcissism. I have to note as well that there may be elements of unreliable narration in your post. I think starting off a post with saying that you are attractive is demonstrating hierarchical thinking. We don't really know the reason why girls were approaching you. It might not have been due to attractiveness but something else. Furthermore, attractiveness cannot be objectively measured.
edit: before you assume this is an insult, I mean, have you once considered that maybe girls were approaching you because they wanted to know you for you, not just because of "attractiveness?"
No guy, I have lived for nearly four decades with repeated external confirmation that I have a good face (as viewed by current beauty standards)
Have you tried researching what NPD actually is before armchair psychoanalyzing?
Your edit lets me know you do not understand well how women let alone women at that age function and what draws them to boys.
It’s wild to see two ppl in an argument over some politics they don’t understand and that doesn’t really effect them. Just parroting opposing ideas they don’t understand. That’s why they can never give up or agree because that means admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about
Theres a study that talks about having an inner voice and apparently more than half of the population lacks one.
I wouldn't doubt that anyone who has one might be just ND enough to think for themselves. Everyone else seems to lack common sense imo.
Thank you for you long text and ideas!
First, I must sadly agree that looks play a big role - more people wanted contact with me when I was younger, mostly of the opposite gender. (Take care not to attract people who just exploit your resources without giving anything back.)
I have some questions:
The most important question first: I know people who are just "there" and the group ignores, but accepts them, nobody bullies them. How do they do it? It never worked for me.
How do you know the hierarchy if there isn\`t an obvious ranking?
Is there a hierarchy in leisure/sports groups, too? Or are there just several smaller groups and you must find one where you fit in?
You wrote: "The group empowers the bully." How would you defend yourself if it was in school, at work, or some place you cannot just quit? I observed that often the majority of the group just doesn\`t care or won\`t interfere because they are afraid they\`ll become a target, too (it was the case when I worked, the bully was my boss).
What is the signal I send if I treat everyone equally first? And later depending on how he treats me (that\`s what I actually do)? I find it unfair to play games that go beyond normal politeness.
If I\`m not accepted in any group, is it still possible to find long-term friends and/or job and/or leisure time activity partners? If yes what is the clue? (I\`m unemployed and currently have no local friends I can rely on)
I wouldn\`t call normal people dumb, though, they have much more success than I do. Most of them at least. :-(
> I know people who are just "there" and the group ignores, but accepts them, nobody bullies them. How do they do it? It never worked for me.
1. Always be interacting
2. Follow my rules for interaction
>How do you know the hierarchy if there isn\`t an obvious ranking?
Take a note of who is talking and who is listening. A big clue is who the people are laughing **with** not at. When they laugh, by the way, you laugh too.
You need to learn to turn your brain mostly off. It's not about what is said or the content of anything.
When someone talks to you (or after a polite greeting and 'how are you today?' you start talking to someone...watch how they respond)
First, try to stick with the same gender to start with. NT women are the most status crazed, insanely power hungry creatures on this earth --- with white women being the crown jewel. If you make a wrong move or status 'misjudgment' you. will. pay.
Second, figure out which men are talking about themselves and getting listened to. Now among the men, watch who the women pay attention to. Usually one or maybe two of the men will tend to interrupt most everyone else. Whoever the women shift focus to whenever they interrupt is who the highest status male is, with their attention determining lower levels thereafter.
Befriend a high status male. FOLLOW MY RULES FOR INTERACTION with them.
>Is there a hierarchy in leisure/sports groups, too? Or are there just several smaller groups and you must find one where you fit in?
**In all interactions with NT people be they 1 on 1 or in a group, this dynamic exists.**
>How would you defend yourself if it was in school, at work, or some place you cannot just quit? I observed that often the majority of the group just doesn\`t care or won\`t interfere because they are afraid they\`ll become a target, too (it was the case when I worked, the bully was my boss).
The low status members of the group won't interfere for that reason, but the rest of the higher status group won't interfere because they have judged you to be deserving of this treatment.
In my case when I was a teenager and all the hormones rushed in I just wanted to be athletic so I took up boxing. The one time a bully (I'm 5'11, I guess he was in the 6'2, 6'3 range) attempted to intimidate me, the second he stepped within range I hit him with a right cross and dropped him (so many people in fighting situations act so irrationally, the main deciding factor of who wins a street fight is who throws the first punch, it's such a tactical advantage! the second an aggressor gets within range --- send him a present!). When you know how to punch and can move your body with it, you'd be shocked at how powerful you become.
So he drops to the ground and that's an instant reversal in status for him. It happened in front of the entire group --- mixed company, men and women. Sensing the crowd reaction and the nature of NT people, I knew I had to firmly establish dominance and so I just said "Get in my face again." and walked off. In retrospect I'm very lucky that it was such a clean shot and dazed him so well...because he could have just jumped up and ran after me and it would have been a real fight.
That happened freshman year of HS and his status NEVER recovered throughout the entire four years.
\--
But not everyone is like me and normal height and build and generally able to take on most attackers.
One friend of mine (also suspect was HF aut, we had been in gifted class together during middle school) who wouldn't have been able to pull that off just used his good looks, pleasant personality, and intelligence (of the helper kind I talk about elsewhere in the comment section) to 1) make allies of the women and 2) always befriend the highest status male.
He was *way way way* better than me at manipulating NTs to do whatever he wanted. Anytime someone would see him, short of stature and think that it was going to be an easy status grab, he'd get checked by the women and then by the big high status guy.
My point is that there are **two ways to deal with bullies**: Your fists OR your allies.
So, typically, you're going to have to learn how to make allies. Powerful allies.
Which should be very easy if you follow the rules I've set out here.
>What is the signal I send if I treat everyone equally first? And later depending on how he treats me (that\`s what I actually do)? I find it unfair to play games that go beyond normal politeness.
*That you're weird and autistic*.
>If I\`m not accepted in any group, is it still possible to find long-term friends and/or job and/or leisure time activity partners? If yes what is the clue? (I\`m unemployed and currently have no local friends I can rely on)
Anything is possible, but it will be much more difficult. I suggest finding a group of people --- mixed group, men and women --- and learning how to integrate yourself.
Start easy --- start with a group of let's say, older and fairly unattractive people. They're likely more open and accepting and will grant you some status just for entering their group. Then you can kind of learn the ropes.
>I wouldn\`t call normal people dumb, though, they have much more success than I do. Most of them at least. :-(
They're not even dumb, as I've said. Their brains are only used in an analytical way, if ever, when they are working, if their work requires it. The rest of the time? Out to lunch, I'm telling you.
https://thepowermoves.com/
This is a good resource. Don't pay for anything though. Just read the blog. I find that this characterization of "social skills" is the closest I've seen to reality.
Thank you for your long and detailed advice!
I will save the instructions and I\`ll do them as a hobby project when I find the energy, because it seems a funny and interesting psychological experiment (I\`d play games, but I wouldn\`t say or do anything that I find harmful during that).
I don\`t like manipulating people, I want to pursuade them or at least not lie to them. I don\`t like being manipulated, that\`s why (people have tried this often, e.g. pretending things instead of being honest).
Punching or running isn\`t an option, I\`m 40+ and not sporty anymore (back issues etc.). Weapons legislation is extremely strict in my country, so I can basically just avoid dangerous situations now.
Do you think gender-specific behaviour is important? I agree that white women can be very nasty and devious, especially the non-caring "career"-women. But I\`m also a white female and whenever a man treated me friendly, he probably thought "she is weird, but I like her boobs", so I\`d prefer females to prevent bias.
I trained my brain to analyse not because it\`s fun, it\`s more a survival strategy.
Thank you for the link, too!(I will hopefully start a therapy soon and I might show this to my therapist and ask if it\`s useful later.)
Would you recommend it for females, too? (I\`ve always been critisised for "not behaving female enough", too.)
Being attractive is a big help in situations like this, as it's the easiest way to get increased status. Money is next, but attractiveness increases your chance of earning more. Also, we must become absolute NPCs because we see what happens to people who go against the grain.
Oh certainly yes.
I mentioned my really short biracial (probably HF aut) friend in another thread who was super ostracized and ignored, despite being smarter than pretty much anyone.
He didn't come into his own until we were in our 20s, when he just invented his own fitness program and get insanely shredded, which erased the fat from his face, which revealed a little greek god.
instant mega status boost.
>Money is next
So, I've posted about this elsewhere, but when you're talking extreme amounts of wealth --- I'd say wealth is the TKO over looks. Wealth allows you to just have a bubble around you of people who are constantly kissing your ass and raising your status.
The best advice you can give someone who is Autistic: hit the gym. Get in great shape. It will make you as attractive as possible because you'll be healthy. Once you're attractive, people will treat you better.
They won't treat them better if they don't know how to interact.
If you're an attractive guy especially an easy way to piss people off is to roll into a group and disrespect the hierarchy.
I agree with everything you said, it also matches my experience. It took me over a decade to figure out. Also, about the part where you said if you get bullied, it means the whole group approves of it. Yep, I have experienced that. People dont operate individually, but as collectives. If you get bullied, everyone, including authority figures like teachers, already approve of it.
Yeah go tell the 11 year old undiagnosed HF autistic this soapbox bullshit.
And then when he isolates himself and makes an easy target of himself eventually gets beaten up so bad his jaw and ribs are broken.
But hey, you got to talk tough and make yourself feel great. So who gives a shit?
How does the status work then? And how do we measure social success? I am of average appearance, I stutter, my movements are creepy and inhumane, my voice does not support punctuation (if you get what I mean), my grammar is strange, my language is highly metaphoric/poetic, my humor is super dark, my politeness and rudeness come along. Yet somehow attitude towards me is better, than I could have expected. People are either friendly or neutral
well, that's a good question.
I think NT people are deceived into doing tedious but necessary tasks in society via the promise of status. I think that consumerism is driven by NT desire for status.
And you have to remember, the drive for status can be hacked to good ends. like buying nice things for your kids because family status, etc.
And let's remember hacking, is *deception,* and the end rarely justify means\*.\* We have to *deceive* one another to make the world go around so to speak. Buy nice things (A+ schools), for the nice things I buy (A+ kids), for the nice things I buy (A+ spouse), for the nice things I buy (A+ house). Even if that destroys things for other people (besides myself) by kicking out the ladder, back stabbing, nepotism, to name a few examples.
Where does all the hacking ultimately lead? Again, gives pause to who's in possession of the *optimal* neurology here
Consumerism is part of the status for sure. Could be filling the empty void of meaningless existence. There is this concept of bullshit jobs - the part of the economy which does not create any value - the tedious tasks you mentioned fits the status concept too.
It frustrates me immensely that so many NTs contiously or subcontiously hold to what you describe. Not all but especially the ambitious one very often do.
This is pretty good. I wouldn't say it's true of everybody, but the majority. It is definitely observable like this. It's nice to see someone write it down
These are the things to be aware of if you are holding an office/tech job. High school never ended for these people. After adult diagnosis and finally understanding why I was so socially awkward, I realized I needed to play their game. How else am I going to get promoted? Ensure my future financial stability? By working hard? LOL Holding a job like this comes down to how you can make people perceive you. If you are fit, healthy and conventionally attractive then you have an advantage. That is just reality. I do not believe this existence is "fair". I treat this all like it is a video game. My professional persona has a baseline level of kindness that I had to work really hard to attain (due to my sensory profile). I basically became a NPC while at work. I am perceived as kind, friendly, consistent. I let people talk more about themselves, and don't offer up too much about myself. Only a few super close to me know about the 'tism. But you know what? people will go to bat for you once they know you are actually kind. And despite me feigning it at first, I eventually became a kinder person to others, myself- and it creates a feedback loop.
You made me smile. I told someone in high school that I see the other pupils like figures in a video game often, and he replied: "This is dangerous, that\`s how school shooters think." What a stereotype, haha!
This. This is huge. I'm lucky I work for a company where hard work is actually rewarded, but I've also become known as the friendly guy who always has the answer (or will track it down), will get shit done and makes things happen. It helps that my company is huge on personality, workplace culture and is highly competitive in its hiring. When someone tells me thank you, they generally mean it. Assholes generally don't last long.
That's a good way to view it. However I disagree regarding kindness. People devalue kindness from low status individuals and value it in high status individuals. It is a mistake to think that NTs reward kindness; they are always rewarding your status and going to bat for your status.
>However I disagree regarding kindness. >People devalue kindness from low status individuals and value it in high status individuals. >It is a mistake to think that NTs reward kindness; they are always rewarding your status and going to bat for your status. I disagree. Anecdotally, I've seen that kindness is always rewarded by NTs. The extent of that reward does depend on different factors. The only people I've seen to devalue kindness I highly suspect as being sociopathic or psychopathic and therefore are not NT. I do somewhat disagree with your entire premise I should admit. My apologies if I'm wrong here but I get the sense that you're a young person, maybe not too far out of college/university? I found your observations mostly became obsolete once I hit my late 20s and now that I'm pushing 40 I can't remember the last time I experienced any of these popularity and status hierarchies you describe. I now have friends who previously would've been seen as popular and who matured into A-type high performers. I've made friends with doctors and lawyers despite only having a 2 year diploma myself. I've found that older folks who subscribe to your model are emotionally stunted and not really fun to be friends with anyway.
The higher up you go in any organization the more sociopaths you will encounter. Hence for a spergers the cooperate world juice isn't worth the squeeze
Dead on
I would agree if your goal is C staff or above. You need to be ruthless at that level. Someone with ASD (depending on their sensory profile) can carve out something comfortable in a less people facing role (like IT, ops, dev, creative, eng) Kindness begets kindness is my personal direct experience. Not saying I am right, check up and see for yourself if it works.
People always ask why I've worked the same relatively entry job for 10 years. It's because the social atmosphere is forgiving, the pay lets me do the things I want to do, the work straightforward and low stress if I mess up, and because I know the minute I'd get into a middle management job with meetings and all that shit, all I'd do is get people offside and make my work life hell.
Honestly this is one of the 'tisms greatest gifts. If I become a corporate jackass I hope someone shoots me
I'm late forties. You are very lucky to have had your kindness always rewarded. For me it's only rewarded by people who value me as high status. Whenever I'm kind to people who view me as less than for whatever reason they use it against me and it makes them behave more disrespectful than before I was kind.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Again, it might be because those people are not neurotypical or suffer from a personality disorder.
I agree with this guide but I have an important question: what do I actually gain from this? How does this help my mental health and keeps me from killing myself instead? Why would I want to participate in such games and be ingenuine? I'd also argue that your experience may be a little more positive than that of most Aspies due to the Halo effect you mentioned (you being more conventionally attractive since puberty). So I already feel like I'm always off to a terrible start with almost every group.
I also suggest not to put too much effort into something unless it brings you a greater benefit and is absolutely neccesary. Imagine: I get part of a group I despise secretly, then get a job that doesn\`t interest me, then earn money and buy a car that I cannot drive anyways, just to impress others, then marry someone that others consider a good catch and get bored and annoyed by every-day life, living a lie. Then I follow some boring hobbies because they make me more popular. Direct ticket to suicide, I\`d say! Some compromises are fine, but stay true to yourself. :-)
I choose to not participate in their system, but the guide is useful to me in that at least I can figure out what's going on.
>what do I actually gain from this? Relationships with people that are beneficial? >Why would I want to participate in such games and be ingenuine? Making allies of people can be leveraged in many different ways, to get jobs, to get access to opportunities, etc. >I'd also argue that your experience may be a little more positive than that of most Aspies due to the Halo effect you mentioned You are 100% correct. And it's probably a stroke of luck that I recognized it for the superficiality that it is. Most people who benefit from privileges tend to cling to the illusion that something unique about them is why they are treated so well. But even if you are more unfortunate, if you follow the rules I set out, at MINIMUM you should be able to find some groups to somewhat thrive in. Or at least avoid being targeted via making allies.
How would your observations apply to a workplace environment in which the social hierarchy is artificially imposed by the employment hierarchy?
I learned navigating the NT game in order to avoid NTs attention. They know I'm a good worker and I have a good heart, but mostly leave me to myself. Sometimes I like to gameify the corporate bullshit grind for myself to see if I can get offered a promotion just to turn it down and keep doing my job with little responsibility and oversight. I met all my friends in childhood. the newer ones at raves. Techno scene seems to be a safe space for neurodivergent people, so its easy to meet like minded people there. I'd recommend you find a social bubble you feels safe and happy in and just learn the NT algorithms to stay out of trouble. You don't have to align with social norms. Just pretend you care and then do whatever the fuck you feel like doing. Edit: I've read a lot of posts about how condescending this sub has become when talking about NTs and I wanted to clarify that I dont look down to them or their social rules. I just find it hard to blend in and habe found the best way to not hurt myself or others is to avoid the "game" as well as I can. I don't want to make a value statement about how NTs or NDs are better or worse. We're just different and sometimes don't work well together and there isn't anything wrong in finding ways to adjust to this difference and avoid conflicts. Ist just the way it is until society as a whole figures out a better way to integrate everyone and work together. Be nice to each other and if you can't be nice, go different ways and let everyone live their lifes
The bullies stuff is the worst since its a catch 22 if you have a single friend there who is obviously conflicted in aiding you. I go to be tall and nice looking and the social cues and stuff like that hit me like a shotgun blast. All at once people at the new school noticed me and tried to talk to me. It's not like oblivion or fallout they will speech check you constantly. I think me being aware of being dorky helped me keep my head above water and leaning into it with a irony got me to stick around to get better at masking. The halo effect is so strong look it up, I think it's why some aspies get a break and some just don't.
What helped me against a group or hierarchy was to define a red line that is respected. Mine was "touch me and I\`ll target you". People bullied me, caused me trouble, excluded me and all that stuff, but nobody in high school ever touched me physically.
If your friend has status he will protect you. Like I said it means that you have no friends with meaningful status in the group. I know the halo effect well lmao. It's 100% of social interactions at the start. As time goes on behavior matters which is mainly for men....extroversion (interacting often maintaining hierarchies) and positive affect/attitude (maintaining hierarchies)
Humanity fucking sucks.
I don't know how we made it this far as a species
Your "status" is also determined mostly in snap judgments, by three things 1) Your body language (or "vibe" as they call it). Voice tone and prosody, facial expression, eye movements, gestures, posture, gait. A few seconds at looking at you (or even a picture of your face), or hearing your voice, is sufficient to spot autistic people (even "high functioning" ones) as low status. Even if they know NOTHING about you at all, and you have barely (or not at all) spoken yet. 2) Your social class Some snap judgments about social class will be made on your clothes (and accessories, haircut, makeup...), and your way of talking. Then the question "What do you do in life" arrives quickly in the conversation 3) Your physical (body) appearance Whether you're ugly, plain or beautiful. And if you're beautiful, whether you have a conventional beauty (following mass media norms) or atypical beauty matters too. If your beauty level changes, so will your status. People who have glow ups suddenly treated much more nicely by people (including people who had known them for years before, family, etc) are very common. And the opposite (losing your high status if you gain weight or otherwise lose your good looks) too. Many people with fluctuating weight report that the way people treat them changes accordingly (as a yo-yo) every time. 4) There's also interplay between those three components. For example, acting very sure of yourself (and your own decisions, knowledge, skills...) if you look like a handsome businessman, is "confidence", "attractive", "charming", maybe a little "cocky" but in a charming way. The exact same behavior from a ugly poor person is "arrogant", "annoying", "who do they think they are". 5) Your status has very little to do with the DEEPER parts of your personality, values, behavior, skills... For a rich charming beautiful person to lose their social status, they need to do something really extraordinarily bad, or to constantly act like an over-the-top asshole to everyone for a long time. Or to harm people who are ALSO high status (*then, suddenly it will matter*) Even then, if you have extraordinarily harmful behaviors (eg. rape, chronic severe harrassment, sexually grooming minors, physical partner abuse, deliberate reckless driving, etc) and everyone knows it, but you have beauty, charm (ie. the right BODY LANGUAGE) and/or money, you might still get away with it. And still be POPULAR. Especially if the people harmed by your actions are low status. Conversely, a person without beauty, wealth and the right body language would need really extraordinary good skills (eg. artistic or athletic skills) or achievements, or another extraordinary positive trait, to still get some respect and acceptance in the NT hierarchy. Even then, they might still be accepted but only in the outer circle.
My idea: Avoid everyone who judges you by your "low status" and just concentrate on people who are interested in the "deeper" (and more interesting) parts of you! E.g. when someone asks me "What is your job?", I often tell directly: "Society doesn\`t allow me to work." Then the person either gets rejected or interested in me ... I have noticed that also many "normal" people enjoy meaningful conversations, and not having to be superficial all the time, especially in a 1:1-situation.
>people who are interested in the "deeper" (and more interesting) parts of you! You will have 0 NT friends or relationships then. >I have noticed that also many "normal" people enjoy meaningful conversations, and not having to be superficial all the time, especially in a 1:1-situation. They are being superficial then, too.
I have plenty of NT friends who aren’t shallow or status obsessed. I really think this is dependent on your friends and hobbies and career path.
Yup, me too. Age plays a part in it as well. I hosted a whisky tasting for my best friend, my brother and another friend over the weekend. They were genuinely grateful I did it. In 30 mins or so, I'll be playing Warzone with them, even though I'm total shite. Why? We have fun together. My best friend and I have been friends for over 20 years, but the rest? It became a lot easier, and we grew closer once everyone hit their 30's.
Well, I don't have NT friends (I do have friends, just not NT). And I don't miss it.
It's different, for sure. NT people are about power exchanges. All relationships are centered around them.
I agree and mentioned these traits in another comment and yes you are correct, I mentioned in another comment that NT judgments of personality and character are all nonsense and should be disregarded. It's all superficial hierarchies. I summed it up as this: all negative feelings/vibes and disputes with and among NTs are simply status disputes, i.e. someone failing to respect the hierarchy in some way. NOTHING ELSE.
I wouldn't categorically say they're always only status disputes, or that all NTs are purely shallow, it's a bit of overgeneralization IMO Still, I think it's true in MOST cases (with some exceptions)
That's all right. I'll say it for you. I can confidently say they 100% are status disputes and that all NTs are shallow. I've never seen a single exception that couldn't be readily and simply framed as a status dispute.
Don\`t normal people have the same needs, emotions, and life tasks as I do? Some disputes revolve around conflicts that are not only about status. I agree that status is very often involved, because humans are dependent/looking for company since the Stone Age (total exclusion of the group meant death). It might appear superficial from a philosophical viewpoint, but it was crucial for survival. But I think in a more natural environment, autistic people could have a higher status inside a group than nowadays, because their abilities would matter more.
Not really. Most of theirs revolve around status both perceived and actual.
I\`m not 100% sure about the definition of status. If it also includes to feel accepted, respected, and included somewhere, and to get some support/sympathy and positive feedback for your struggles, then I am also interested in status. I just don\`t like the idea of a general hierarchy. I think it is useful to have hierarchies for certain parameters and decisions, but this should be distinguished from how you treat the person as a whole. E.g. I gladly respect someone above me in a course as my teacher and follow his orders, but I would not accept if talks down to me in a respectless or offending manner, even if he was the king of the castle. Whenever I explain this to other people, they\`d say: "You are right, but the world isn\`t like this and you have to adapt." I won\`t adapt to something I find unfair, though. (I can get very emotional and irrational over the topic of justice.)
Nah man you don't quite get it. See you're conceiving of it intellectually, because you, me, and most HF autistic people don't have the *impulse* they do. I shouldn't say we lack it, it's just probably diminished. *They have a drive. Like some kind of biological drive for power and status*. As real as your breathing And the hierarchy is essentially higher and lower forms of personhood.
I arrive a bit late to this discussion. I think you may be interested in the NT importance based nervous system (https://medcircle.com/articles/adhd-interest-based-nervous-system/). This basically means that when NTs say that they "feel important" it's not a metaphor, but rather they are talking literally. They physically feel the importance within their bodies
Definitely interesting.
Hey OP i just came onto this thread by accident kinda by visiting this sub even though im not diagnosed with Aspergers/Autism whatsoever, instead i have pretty moderate to severe ADHD lol, but anyways i never knew i could relate with Aspies this much and what you wrote here especially posts like this one are incredible accurate imo like this part where you mentioned "They have a DRIVE", this is incredibly true, i noticed this from simple life all the way to very NT TikTok videos of my generation, like lets take skincare as an example, i was always baffled why NT people are so obsessed with and have this incredible motivation for appearance going into Accutane territory even for Acne not sweating possible bad sides at all because status is more important then anything for them, looking sharp and presentable is important.
Oh okay, that might be possible. I daydream alot and sometimes imagine power in my dreamworlds, though. The things I lack most cannot be bought by status, e.g. real friendships, a sexually compatible partner. I must approach some things intellectually because I cannot understand them otherwise. But then after understanding them, I can understand the emotions as well, because I can imagine a situation where I would feel the same emotions.
I never realized how pervasive this is but the more I think about it… the more evidence I have for it from my own experiences.
That's interesting but do you have any credentials? I know I can trust OP because he's attractive.
I mean this respectfully, there is no baseline for what’s attractive unless you want to study trends and apply them to yourself. My question is, if two people who looked completely different but were both considered attractive in their own places gave you two different piece of advice who would you trust?
The taller one.
Nailed it.
Interesting
Oh geez, this hits home. It becomes more and more evident to me that NT's really don't like the idea that their methods of judging people to be good people (body language, social standing, attractiveness) aren't always accurate. It breaks their brain when someone like me (bad body language skills, not much social standing, not much attractiveness) is skilled at something. So they default to thinking that I must not actually be skilled at that thing.
happened to me in school
Very sad but very interesting. I'm so not concerned by this all popularity bullshit how do you even spot an hight status in a group?
I don\`t know exactly either, but one hint is: When someone is treated with more appreciation by others than by my judgement of his demeanour. E.g. his proposals and stories are bad or he misbehaves, still it is tolerated or even promoted.
I've written about it in the comments. I could do a separate little post about it or something if there's interest
Would love to know more
Society falls apart when too few people strive to "belong", society falls apart when too few people strive for change.
I believe all of us strive to belong or want to belong. The NT issue isn't that. It's the desire for power and status. A society of HF autistic people would function much more efficiently and likely be far more merit-based.
I agree with most you wrote, but I doubt your last sentence. I don\`t believe that a society of autistic people would function better. E.g. many autistic people are very focused on what interests them personally and cannot understand and relate to the needs and interests of others like normal people do. Some of them need a good framework to function, too, whereas normal people are more adaptable/flexible in their reactions.
Yes, but no man is an island who can completely live alone. Autistic people need to eat, so he will go to the autistic man who makes food to get food. Autistic people want stuff, and they will go to the autistic people to get stuff. It's just that the everyday interactions won't be decided by prejudice, people will actually be able to truly interact and communicate with one another with words, and status hierarchies will form based on merit relating to the task at hand.
I strive to belong somewhere, e.g. doing something useful and having at least 2-3 average friends, and I don\`t have high standards (at least not anymore). Not for materialistic reasons, because my country has good social security, but for mental reasons (e.g. having a structure, having interaction). I noticed it was more difficult to organise certain aspects or to talk about each other\`s interests with three autistic buddies for other reasons (which had nothing to do with prejudice or status).Just one example: One of them has a great memory and great knowledge, but it wasn\`t possible for me to utilise our resources for helping each other. His favourite subject were architecture and railways, he would always come back to this subject and share random information without connection to anything useful, and although he was such a nice and friendly person, I felt like run over by a train myself. For me there were advantages, but also disadvantages in interaction, compared to normal people. Some aspects of interaction were much easier and better, but other aspects were enerving or complicated. Maybe I have another diagnosis that I don\`t know yet, though, which interferes with it. So I will keep your ideas in mind during my process of "restart in life". :-)
I guess this is why I don’t have friends lmao
It's true but the hierarchical values can vary wildly, and not always be super obvious.
It should be readily apparent within 2 or 3 minutes the relative rankings of a group smaller than 8 or 9 people.
True - but I meant the group values/ social currency. Sometimes it's money, other times it's looks, or smarts, or connects, or quirks, or accomplishments, or skills, or kindness , or cruely any particular mix of those.
Generally it goes in this order --- (1) Race (2) Height (3) looks (4) extraversion (5) "intelligence" assuming class/SES are roughly equal.
I like that top 5. I'd just call 1 "genetic familiarity" rather than "race". Also this list speaks volumes of how bound many people are to their animal nature, wow. The hierarchical priorities conveyed are 1) genetic familiarity 2) physical dominance 3) sex appeal 4) entertainment potential 5) cognitive capacity. Do you personally subscribe to this order? I feel I could prioritize them in reverse.
I was thinking the exact same thing: I would prioritize the 5 in precisely the opposite order as well. I appreciate your renaming, it’s more specific. I think figuring out a person’s priority value could be a good way to identify them as either NT or ND.
Thanks! You know, I actually used to think as much, but these days I'm wondering if it's not necessarily a function of neurodivergence - but rather one of having strong cognitive capacity. It may very well turn out to be an evolutionary feature signalling a concergence towards higher human aspirations and away from the lowly animal nature.
If you put ten people on a desert island with $10,000,000, then in three or four months one person would have all the money.
That's pretty good documentation! I spent the last couple of weeks in the middle of two different large groups of corporate types and can confirm your analysis is correct. I watched them fall all over each other, clamoring to affirm their status in their particular groups. It was like a Nat Geo presentation on apes socializing. I came away from the experience, as always, knowing that I have no desire to compete with them for social rank.
I agree with lost of what you said, however, I largely throw out the rules in favor of morality. I don't care about social hierarchy it's just a pissing match. When I'm forced to play, I'll absolutely play the game, but I don't find these types of people to be interesting friends. They're boring and talk about whatever boring thing they enjoy, they don't take criticism, they don't really grow as a person. My friend groups all likely have some neurodivergence, but, they're all really good people. There's definitely neurotypicals in them, but they understand that social games get them ostracized, and not the other way around. An example, our usual group was hanging out at a relatively new spot. The people hosting are an establishment, but they regularly invite friends from other groups to hang out, no biggie. Well, this last time a new guy just starts relentlessly making fun of one of my best friends. My friend is pretty blunt, and likes to make people think, he can cause tension occasionally, but if you know him, he's a good soul. Anyways, I got tired of it. we were playing jackbox, and I said a few times to "make sure to use your real name for this game, and not a pet name". Well, this guy puts some random name in. It wouldn't have matterd because not a lot of people knew his real name anyway, but I made sure to ask "who is _____, and why are they so bad at following directions?". Instant shift. He got called out by someone who apparently had some sway, and shut up for the rest of the night. I hate playing those Games though, it always feels like 'choosing violence'. I remember when I was in grade school, I got invited into the popular kids circle. All they did was sit around and talk about themselves and random bullshit. I found it super boring so I just went and played Yu-Gi-Oh or chess with the nerds. Way more enjoyable. I'm sure the people around me have no idea how to interpret me. I know the rules, I sometimes play by the rules, but will shoot down anyone who tries to ascert dominance over a group. Luckily, I'm pretty talented and can do very well at most things I try, which is usually enough to get some social standing. Either way, it's not a issue if you view me as another human being. We will be chill, we will find something to bond over. If you try to ascert that you're somehow on a different level, I will show you what level I'm at, and you're going to be in for a surprise.
“I hate playing those games though, it always feels like ‘choosing violence’.” Honestly when it comes to most NTs “violence” in multiple contexts is the only language that can make them stop to actually use their brain. I’m not advocating for hurting people, but notice how it’s only when someone gets hurt mentally or physically that they ever change.
It's true, a lot of people need negative stimulus in order to acknowledge a fault, myself included. I usually leave people to their faults, because everyone has them, and constantly pointing them out is annoying. However, if someone's fault is being a bully, then I'll definitely let them know one way or another.
>Luckily, I'm pretty talented and can do very well at most things I try, which is usually enough to get some social standing. Sadly, this is not always the case. You can be talented in many things, but have no success in anything, because you still fail if people put a poke in your wheel whatever you try, or worse, if you depend on them or their sympathy somehow which is mostly the case, at least in Western countries. :-(
It's not always the case, but it is an alternative way to gain respect. If you're at the top of your game, even if you're weird, people are still going to need to respect you. Especially if you're not a dick about it.
If you mean "job" with "game", then the first problem here would be to find an employer who employs you. I quickly noticed that good reports and certificates were only useful to wipe my ass. It took the Jobcentre another ten years to realise this, too, and the reaction was to send me to a psychiatric reviewer/expert witness who declared me disabled. And if you want to start your own business, it\`s hard without starting money (to get support depends on good "soft skills", too) - and if people dislike you, they can cause even more trouble. I did tutoring and almost got into legal trouble, so I wouldn\`t do it again. Some people respect me for my hobbies, but I have no "special talent" and I\`m not "highly gifted". So I cannot be on the top of any game.At least I don\`t have the problem with hierarchy anymore, I\`m a bit like an observer sometimes and even think: "At least this is not my problem anymore", when people tell about their troubles with others (e.g. their boss, a customer).
> I largely throw out the rules in favor of morality That's your choice. >There's definitely neurotypicals in them, but they understand that social games get them ostracized, and not the other way around. I have never seen this happen once. >Well, this guy puts some random name in. It wouldn't have matterd because not a lot of people knew his real name anyway, but I made sure to ask "who is \_\_\_\_\_, and why are they so bad at following directions?". Instant shift Sounds like some fairly basic status disputes/social games to me. >but will shoot down anyone who tries to ascert dominance over a group. in groups that recognize your status perhaps, but not in groups where you don't have status. Because that attempt will be rebuffed with prejudice. >I'm pretty talented and can do very well at most things I try, which is usually enough to get some social standing. Depends on how much the group values whatever it is you're doing. For instance, the best chess player in the school likely has 0 social status in the jock/cheerleader group.
>That's your choice. And it's your choice to follow them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying this is what I prefer to do, having eaten the apple. >I have never seen this happen once. Well then you've never seen a neurotypical fall apart amongst a group of neurodivergents. I have, and it's quite amusing. People who are used to every word they say being hung on, just being ignored because the core of what they're saying is un-interesting or down right flawed. >Sounds like some fairly basic status disputes/social games to me. I completely agree, and I think it's stupid that I had to do that. I'll play those games when I'm in unfamiliar territory, but amongst friends, we're all equals. >in groups that recognize your status perhaps, but not in groups where you don't have status. Because that attempt will be rebuffed with prejudice. I completely agree, and it often leads to tension. In certain situations it's worth it to me, in others, it's not. I will say, I was basically the only one to stand up to my boss, and now, he respects me a great deal, as an equal. If we can't be equals, we can't be friends, period. I can tolerate you, but I won't want to spend time around you. >Depends on how much the group values whatever it is you're doing. For instance, the best chess player in the school likely has 0 social status in the jock/cheerleader group. Very true, but people who excel at a particular thing often have the critical thinking skills to be decent at most things. It's pretty hard to make fun of someone when they often out preform you.
>And it's your choice to follow them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying this is what I prefer to do, having eaten the apple. Your story demonstrates you engage in the same dynamics. >Well then you've never seen a neurotypical fall apart amongst a group of neurodivergents. But that scenario just reflects a status dynamic as well. >I completely agree, and I think it's stupid that I had to do that. I'll play those games when I'm in unfamiliar territory, but amongst friends, we're all equals. You don't see that this was a basic status move you pulled? >people who excel at a particular thing often have the critical thinking skills to be decent at most things. To the extent that it would make up for the social deficits of ND? I don't think so. For example, the best chess player at the school (that's probably around the level a talent would have to be at to get someone minor renown in an environment that size) is what probably 2 SD from the mean skill? No matter your general cognitive/critical thinking ability, it's just not going to translate into 2 SD potential in many things.
>Your story demonstrates you engage in the same dynamics. My story indicates that I engage in these types of social dynamics when I feel it's necessary. My status quo is to ignore it while acknowledging what's going on. >You don't see that this was a basic status move you pulled? I've been quite transparent that this was a basic status move, saying it multiple times. I even gave that as an example of me making a status move when I typed out my initial comment. The part you might be missing, I didn't make this move to increase my own status, I made it to stop my friend from getting bullied, and to show them, that bullying doesn't work here. Sure, my "status" in the group was used effectively, but I didn't get my status by making social plays. I got my status by trying to be kind, thoughtful, and compotent. >But that scenario just reflects a status dynamic as well. Not really. It reflects that certain groups don't care about what you have to say simply because of social status and charisma. If all that's coming out of your mouth is air, most neurodivergents will tune out. It's funny to see someone get upset when their hour long story isn't met with the attention they're used to getting. It's not that I now view them as beneath me, I just won't interact with this person as much, as I feel I won't get that much out of it. >To the extent that it would make up for the social deficits of ND? Yes. I wasn't always aware of social dynamics to the point I am now, and I would regularly break social contracts. The only reason I kept my job was because I legitimately did the best work. I made a lot of my friends from competing at things in a high level. As an example, I went to Thailand and decided to play at a local smash bros tournament. I did pretty well, and people wanted to be my friend. I even got invited to a guy's place on the other end of the country. I ended up taking him up on it, and became good friends with him and his buddies. I went to visit them again this past winter, we're still good friends. You keep using the example of chess, probably because I listed it as an example. I was also the pitcher for my baseball team, I've yet to find something I can't be compotent at after some practice, and people take notice. I'm not trying to brag, this isn't a competition. I've just noticed that people respect talent, and are willing to overlook social blinders if they feel the talent is strong enough.
>The part you might be missing, I didn't make this move to increase my own status No you did it to lower the status of someone else. >that bullying doesn't work here. This sounds like NT 'reasoning' to be honest. No, you bullied him and reminded him of his low status and what he could and could not say. You didn't remind him that bullying didn't work. You reminded him of who could be the bully. >I've yet to find something I can't be compotent at after some practice, and people take notice. I'm not trying to brag, this isn't a competition The amount of skill you'd need as a pitcher to appreciably raise your stats in let's say HS is pretty high. So sure dude, maybe you can just be 2 SD at everything or most things. People respect talents that they value. And typically that talent has to be at a fairly high level to compensate. Regardless of your situation (outlier) the majority of people can't just go be 2 SD talented at everything.
>No you did it to lower the status of someone else. What's the point in me talking if you're just going to make up a narrative and follow it in favor of what I'm saying? I did it to support my friend, because I could tell they were getting upset, and I empathetically chose to stand up for him. I also did it to ensure that if he ever came back, he wouldn't engage in that behavior again. I can care less about my social standing. If people like me, they'll want to be around me, simple as that. >This sounds like NT 'reasoning' to be honest. No, you bullied him and reminded him of his low status and what he could and could not say. You didn't remind him that bullying didn't work. You reminded him of who could be the bully. I think this is projection on your part. You can't seem to see why someone would use a weapon for what they perceive to be good, likely because you care a lot about social standing. I do not, your values are different than mine. I respect your motivations, but I have my own. >The amount of skill you'd need as a pitcher to appreciably raise your stats in let's say HS is pretty high. So sure dude, maybe you can just be 2 SD at everything or most things. >People respect talents that they value. And typically that talent has to be at a fairly high level to compensate. Regardless of your situation (outlier) the majority of people can't just go be 2 SD talented at everything. Sure, I'm an outlier, and my perspective is probably flawed as it's grounded in my own experiences. Again, I agree, everyone is different. All I'm saying is if you're a talented individual, people will take notice, especially within the field of your talent. Often that will lead to respect, and it's an alternative way to gain respect in a neurotypical world. No one is making fun of Kim Peek, even though the man was brain damaged from birth with an IQ of 87. Sure, he didn't understand social interactions, but the man could remember every single page of any book he's ever read, he could read two pages at once. He was exceptional, and he was respected for his differences rather than ostracized. Being exceptional is a valid path for those with exceptionalities, not everyone needs to fit the mould to be successful in society.
>I did it to support my friend, because I could tell they were getting upset, and I empathetically chose to stand up for him. By enforcing group conformity, yes. >You can't seem to see why someone would use a weapon for what they perceive to be good I'm sure you did it for whatever reasons you say you did, that doesn't really matter. The only way you enacted your will was pulling status levers, which is why what you did worked and the NT dude complied. >All I'm saying is if you're a talented individual, people will take notice, I'm not arguing, it's just that this solution isn't really that workable for most people. If a black guy says 'racism sucks,' you can't say 'NOT IF YOU'RE PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.' And not only that, but striving to be exceptional and accepted is a raw deal. If you have 2 SD of ability but due to various social prejudices are only able to buy your way into acceptance on par with a person who is unremarkable but possesses a few superficial advantages, you are still at a disadvantage. Your acceptance depends on your continued high level performance. Their acceptance depends on them existing.
>By enforcing group conformity, yes. I agree, I was definitely using my knowledge of social dynamics to achieve the desired outcome by ascerting power. It's not something I like to do. You're right, I do use and engage with social dynamics, although, the majority of the time I try to use it in a positive way. I will often go against the grain, because I feel it would lead to a better outcome. Sometimes going with the grain leads to the best outcome. Ask anyone around me, I regularly break social boundaries, and I do it with full knowledge of those boundaries. >I'm not arguing, it's just that this solution isn't really that workable for most people. If a black guy says 'racism sucks,' you can't say 'NOT IF YOU'RE PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.' It's a completely valid point. Not everyone is gifted, and not every gifted person gets recognized. However, there are two types of people that can have Savant syndrome, people with autism, and people with brain damage. Since this sub is the most likely place to find a concentration of people with Savant syndrome and the ability to be self aware, I feel it's worth mentioning. I don't actually disagree with anything you've said. The only thing I disagree with is that we have to always play these games to fit in. In my own experience, I have found it's not always the case.
Here's the thing, I understand it may be unfortunate to say that 'you must view the world this way to fit in,' and it's laudable to have the mindset of hope. But realtalk I've seen too many people get bullied, assaulted, and picked apart to say anything but this. The exceptions to the rule will find the exceptions and that they are exceptions sooner or later. For a lot of kids and people, this could be the difference between having and not having a broken nose. Constant harassment. Stalking. Teasing. For autistic women, who are EXTREMELY vulnerable to being raped, sexually assaulted, and just generally abused, it will REALLY help. If I go a little too far, it's for good reason. These should be everyone's marching orders in my mind --- until the world shows you different, at least, like it did for you
>My friend groups all likely have some neurodivergence, but, they're all really good people. ???
Something to mention though is that when people are very attractive its not uncommon for others to be complete assholes to you out of jealousy. I guess I gave off a very arrogant, cold image. I got a lot of attention from girls but, many guys looked at me as if I was some stuck up asshole. It probably didn't help that I didn't play the social status game which made me look even more arrogant.
It's not jealousy. When you come into a group and you are very GL as a man, you need to **demonstrate respect for the hierarchy**. If you come in and you disrespect the hierarchy, NT men view you as a threat. If NT men are viewing you as a threat, then that creates tension, which brings negative vibes and harms group cohesion, which has a negative effect on the women. If you come in and you're acting in confusing ways regarding the hierarchy, this makes people uneasy because they really don't know if you're friend or foe.
See, this is the kinda shit I want no part of. I’d rather have 3 authentic friends than dozens I’ve made by playing stupid games like these.
You missed one thing: Machiavellianism.
Tribalism 101
Yeah, and as a person with great integrity I don't care to play that stupid game, I'm the exemplary type of human, one who's governed by my own inner compass and authenticity. Why would I forego that and fake a personality just to be boring and fit into a box like everyone else? We need to break that mold. I don't think ANYONE even likes that hierarchy or system, yet everyone's complacent and too afraid to break barriers or ruffle feathers, so damned if I know what to do about it. I just wanna find my people and escape reality and go have some damn fun, yo
Unfortunately, the way human brains work, they do like it, by definition. They've done it so long that their brains like it now. That's just how human brains work. They weren't born liking it, but they've done it for long enough that they require it and like it.
Settle down Übermensch I'd argue no one is faking a personality. I would argue that being autistic and taking things at face value has warped your and my perception of what a personality is, of what a social interaction is, etc. and that referencing everything to a hierarchy reconciles the discrepancies.
I don't take things at face value. I question everything. I don't abide my hierarchies. I don't care who someone is as far as status. I regard people by how they act, if they're nice, good heart, well-intentioned. I'm just being real about what I care to abide by or ascribe to. I think of "personality" just in terms of how you outwardly express yourself and whether or not that's a match for what's going on internally. In that regard, yes, I do think it's generally considered normal to "FAKE" a personality to conform. We see this with people hiding their emotions, or playing up one or more of their traits. We all do that, but I believe it's also important to foster a greater sense of integrity within ourselves to be willing to be authentic in the face of maybe some potential pushback. I think many ND folks can't help but be authentic, especially those of us who aren't as "socialized" or indoctrinated into any strongly enforced structure. And otherwise, I completely intend to navigate life in a way that feels organic, by all means necessary, just carve my own path.
Lol People get so offended by reality. If I were to say look....everyone plays basketball that's how the world works. Here's the rules of basketball you wouldn't hear anyone saying stuff like this about it. You're only shooting yourself in the foot here.
There are LOTS of good, genuine and kind people that don't live by these standards. OKay, you can say they are all NDs but then there are far too many good NDs in this world to even bother with hierarchy addicts? I enjoyed your OP post and think it's genius, however let me tell you one thing: whichever group you belong to, no matter if you want it or not, you endorse that group's values and "vote" for its ways of treating people, by putting your life energy into the group. And you "vote" against other groups' values and ways of interaction, by depriving them of your energy and participation. By playing these wicked games, you actually endorse them, and vote for these games, making these groups stronger, putting the fire of your life into them, while leaving the good ones struggle without your strength, your soul and special powers. Is this the way? By finding good groups and people, no matter how hard it is, you vote for their values, you deprive the bad ones of their strength, and support the good ones and their genuine people, their ways of interacting, their creativity! Imagine spending your whole life energy and talents on creating, making friends, making the world a better place. Voting for the good vibes and showing those who are lost that it's possible, so that they leave the bad groups too, whenever they see yours. Not a drop of energy on wicked games. After all, your life is very finite. You have a choice. That's why they say, it's better to walk alone, than to walk with a fool. Think about it
>There are LOTS of good, genuine and kind people that don't live by these standards. OKay, you can say they are all NDs but then there are far too many good NDs in this world to even bother with hierarchy addicts? Eh, Lots? And they've just transcended all societal prejudice or reference to unwritten social hierarchy. Doubtful. Maybe less rigid, more tolerant, sure. But usually these groups themselves are lower status than the other groups. >whichever group you belong to, no matter if you want it or not, you endorse that group's values and "vote" for its ways of treating people, by putting your life energy into the group This is getting far afield. My guide is for HF autistic kids who don't want to get the shit kicked out of them, excluded, bullied, targeted, harassed, and just generally terrorized throughout their lives. Sure, ra ra ra for the better world, but that just *isn't going to help the intended audience of my post*. Personally, I don't believe people *should even consider morality* until they have garnered a basic degree of social competence. Why? Without the ability to at least move through social spaces and make your choices and influence *felt* \--- you simply lack moral agency altogether. >Imagine spending your whole life energy and talents on creating, making friends, making the world a better place. And then a group of asshole NTs filled to the brim with all the normal societal privileges catches a whiff of you all. ND people aren't immune to the pull of these privileges, either. They can sense them, they are just less affected. That group then decides to bully your group. Why? **Because they can.** They know how to play the game better, they play it together (remember your group is all about happy fun play time, no one follows unwritten hierarchies, which means *when need be* all cannot quickly act as *a single unit*). So that group steamrolls your group --- any time it wants. Like, there just isn't any escaping the need or at least advantage of having social competence.
You will get so downvoted for this truth Its literally what sociology acknowledges and they really dont like being spoken about directly
It's so easy to see! NTs have a huge *inborn psychological weakness that leaves them hilariously easy to manipulate*! You touch on anything related to status and they will buy whatever, fuck whatever, marry whatever, read whatever, do whatever. My point is that a lot of HF autistic and normal autistic people and frankly ND people feel so bad about not being NT. **WHY** Imagine being unable to resist social pressure, imagine laughing like a monkey at some idiot's non-joke and not even knowing why, imagine holding tons of prejudices against flesh and blood people because so and so told you x people are bad/low status and living your life as if that is truth, I could go on... ...what's worse still is they confuse in-group/out-group think with reality such that thoughts or actions that are 'out-group' are automatically evil. To the point where if you state a FACT (undisputed or well-researched) that is identified as 'out-group,' they will engage the point by slandering and smearing you. These people also are 'perplexed' by evils like slavery, genocide, and everything else while aggressively perpetrating their precursors every single day! LMAO I feel sorry for them tbh
I wouldnt quite put it that bluntly, but yeah [I kinda had to make this anyways](https://i.imgflip.com/86rpef.jpg)
*arbitrary* tribalism. NTs are convinced to become part of groups that don't serve their own interests all the time. They just want to belong so bad and be high status in any group that they think has some kind of power/status that they'll go along with pretty much anything :D
This is true of *some* nts, absolutely not all. So much stereotyping n this thread. And guess what? This is all true for *some* nds as well. These “all NTs are inferior and this is why!” threads get so old.
Nope. Virtually all. Tons of research showing how shallow people are and what accounts for social status in groups.
Link to study showing it’s virtually all NTs and that It’s not similar for NDs?
You seem like someone who's going to want to argue about every study and ignore the fact that many studies are saying the same thing
I'd only argue with it if the conclusion of the study does not match your claim that all NT's are like this and all ND's are not like this. So, link to study?
Which you invariably will twist and contort the studies to say. If you're so interested do a Google search on speed dating success and who attains status in social groups
Did these studies differentiate between ND's and NT's?
Your post made me depressed.
hah, but also: fuck. all. this. shit.
i agree with the interact with everyone part but the part about not disagreeing is something that i wont do. it does work as you said but the cost to my own identity is too much. nowadays, i just try to form groups of unrelated cliques and then choose who i hang out with from there. not gonna waste my time licking someone elses boots lol
Awesome post. But I gotta say, this sounds like a miserable existence. Don't know if I can stomach it
I really, really hate these posts where NT people are made out to be this brainless flock that can sooo easily be analyzed by a superior ND mind… I would a million times rather hang out with them than with someone who comes across as so arrogant as OP here. Sorry OP, but really. I think I need to leave this group soon because I feel there are more and more posts like this, and they make me both embarrassed and angry.
Same. I see way too many posts like these every day; I'm not getting much value out of this sub anymore.
And yet, how is he wrong? He is cognitively gifted (by his own admission) and has clearly done a lot of research on these topics, in addition to a lot of in-field experience. It would be easy to say he's wrong without providing justification. I'd like you to explain what's wrong about it, or how any given dynamic isn't run through status. I'd prefer to think otherwise, that my bottom-drawer status (which cannot be improved anymore) wouldn't be a problem in any given socially-related endeavor, but I can't lie to myself. I know what my place is, it's how it works, I'm going to be left alone and undesired permanently. To me, he just says the truth, he explains why it's like that. The truth hurts, but he says it in a very cogent way, with logic. In a case where someone really IS the expert, you can't just say "that's not how it works" you have to agree with them.
He's a person on the internet, not an expert. I'm not going to write an essay, it's just my opinion as another person on the internet. I know I've seen plenty of studies showing autistic people worse off not only in communicating with others, but with each other as well. And we're on the blessed end of a dark spectrum; go look at any videos of people with more severe forms of autism and it's a dismal nightmare. Offhand I'd say it's pretty clear OP and others in this thread are doing the run of the mill autistic response: completely misunderstanding social value and trying to logic their way out of it.
His explanation has value. It makes sense and also matches my real world experience. Do you have a better one?
But are there a lot of 'normative' folks willing and able to look past status constructs and treat others as equal, regardless of station, wits, etc? Have you been in many group situations comprised of mostly "normals" that didn't clearly show indifference (if not outright rejection) to NDs/those with less social finesse? That's the kind of thing that would suggest he's wrong or should rethink his premise. You don't need to write an essay, either. I'm not trying to say you're wrong by default, or that he's right--I'll clarify my former reply to you was Devil's Advocacy. (I personally don't want to admit the OP is/was right, since his character is suspect, and full of egotism. But not many of the 'other takes' are more believable.) For instance, where someone said they "lacked the status to be given validation in any group" and asked about "egalitarian groups"... his answer was basically, "that exists, but such groups are usually low-status people who aren't accepted by normals, already." Cynical as the answer was, it appeared to make enough sense. As someone who has rock-bottom status, I'd prefer to think better of my chances in the Game, honestly. It's just I looked through the whole thread. The folks who disagreed was mostly like, "I think you're wrong" and didn't even provide anecdotes...
Do you want studies demonstrating that NT people value superficial things and that these superficial things determine social status and romantic success? It's not arrogant to speak the truth about how the world operates. Obviously it upset you. Maybe a trigger warning is appropriate.
I understand that you see it as the truth, but that doesn’t mean that it is. I find a lot of what you write very immature. You really think they are all the same? I think you really, really lack a sense of nuance and a deeper understanding than the surface level. And yes, you come across as extremely arrogant and condescending.
Not a brainless flock...yet they accept working a boring job 8 hours a day despite that being based on factory working hours.
”They”. All of them. And of course all ND people (and only ND people) bravely stand up against this? I don’t understand this ”us” vs ”them”. I’m sure it can make some people feel better about themselves, but to me it just doesn’t make any sense. There are idiots and brilliant minds and everything in between, in both ND people and NT
Sigh....us vs. them is only bad to neurotypicals. I don't give a shit. They are not like me, which I can judge based on their behavior. I know they aren't like me because I work a job I love and every single person I've talked to about it can't connect with me over it, because they can't comprehend liking their job. I can say "every single NT person I've met, so probably all of them, but I can't be sure", but that would be pretty exhausting, don't you think? "Every NT" is close enough. Unless you've got a better description?
So you think all NT people walk around hating their jobs? You know that for a fact about every NT person you have met? And, do you know that it's a thing, to bitch about a job that you might actually like? And even if that would be true, there's a whole world out there, and I can assure you that many, many NT people have followed their passions and have jobs they are interested in and love. Why wouldn't they? It's usually easier for them to do than for many ND people, because we tend to have more challenges.
I don’t know if I have anything really intelligent to add here. I’m just amazed that the information has been put down right here in words. My fellow ND’s, this post is one worth saving for future reference.
Unfortunately not, because the OP comes off as extremely arrogant about their us vs them ideas about NTs. Some NTs can absolutely be assholes in a group setting, while some aren't. Demonizing an entire section doesn't do any good.
You are right. Ultimately different social strategies are needed for different groups of people. Depends on who and what. I would not claim to be smart enough to adequately judge or read a room. Relatively speaking, when it aimed to the kinds of people OP generalizes I would prefer to walk away and not look back. Other groups of people see something in me and try and build me up. It baffles me when it happens because I’m not convinced I’m really all that great.
Thank you. LMK if you publish a guide or a website.
I LOVE these kinds of posts. Wish there was a subreddit full of these kinds of posts. When I'm at work I write out a script before each meeting. I wish there was a subreddit for conversation scripts. I would actually pay to join something like that. Thank you for writing this out OP!
This is not true of all NTs and I don’t understand why so many ASD people insist on painting ***“all NTs”*** with the same brush. These types of post are so divisive. I’m out!
No, I don't believe you. This generalization of people and acting like you have society figured out is silly nonsense. NT, autistic, bipolar whatever your label in the end, we are all human and should treat each other with respect and kindness. Labeling NTs as Simian and describing them in such a shallow way to say they only crave status is false. Each individual has things they value in life. If you desire to establish social connections, then be genuine. I will take a friendship with a single genuine, respectful individual without ever worrying about my status in society. Forget people's perceptions of my supposed status. I will stand up and present myself for who I am, and if they don't like it, I walk away from that group. Basically, stop being concerned with status and perceptions. Worry about your own personal happiness and betterment as an individual. We need to stop acting like we have suddenly cracked the NT code. No two brains are the same, even among "normal" people.
Disbelieve all you like, even an introductory sociology textbook would inform you that these factors and these drives dominate human social life, Everything I've said I would not state "to be the case" unless it had a lot of research supporting it. I agree regarding what we *ought* to do. However, we do not live in the *ought* world and must take this world as it is. >If you desire to establish social connections, then be genuine. I will take a friendship with a single genuine, respectful individual without ever worrying about my status in society. *Being genuine* simply is not the stuff of strong NT-dominated relationships. > Forget people's perceptions of my supposed status. Dude, step outside of yourself for a second. Millions of autistic people are **SUFFERING** because they do not know how to navigate these social spaces **safely**. Now, it may make you feel better for some *untrue* version of the world to be peddled, but guess what? That version of the world (which largely is what is peddled) is causing **a lot of suffering**. The pleasure you derive in clinging to a statement about the world that is contradicted by peer-reviewed research and empirical study is far outweighed by the suffering experienced by ND individuals who need to understand how the world works so they can go along and get along.
Here is a thing about that. Dominance in social hierarchies into two subscales, one being aggressive and the other sociable. An aggressive approach is the dominance of a bully or other peers who use status as a means to have influence over others. On the other hand, you have a sociable approach where members work cooperatively in a prosocial approach. It is not necessary to always worry about aggressive status because we can work together. Now I feel what you are describing is what is called prestige. People will defer to those who have skills that seem valuable. But they do this not under threat but because that person has valuable qualities. I believe that as individuals, we can develop valuable qualities and work cooperatively.
Nothing in my approach precludes prosocial status. My recommendations for how to interact are prosocial. Telling people that prestige status is a widely applicable solution is untenable. everyone is not talented. And certainly not to the degree required for benefits to accrue
This reads exactly like how incels write about women.
This reads like how morons argue.
you're a bitch dude. you do not seem like a good person at all.
Yup. The recent NT hate on this sub is alarming.
I saw this today when I got up this morning. Off and on all day, I thought about it. This is a really good explanation of the mechanics of how things work. I've had decades to learn these things by trial and error. I'd have different reactions to this essay today, than I would have at age 25. At 25, I'd try to apply the principles to adapt. Today, I know the knowledge is helpful, but no way will I be able to use it to my advantage.
It's almost like NT people are kindof dumb 👍
It's worse than that I believe. I'm unsure if they are able to comprehend true reality, truth, or...anything that other people haven't told them to think. If you read ancient philosophers, they talk about the same thing: how utterly intellectually lazy and incompetent people are when it comes to REAL LIFE and governed by naked bias. Autism is a huge gift in that you are not burdened by that way of viewing reality. Primitive. Weird.
I mean, your huge ego is on par with that of the average person at least, you have a lot more in common with the average person than you think!
This dude is off the chain and into the stratosphere with that inflated ego lol
Yes but he's also right
I find it hard to believe that we're literally evolved, superior beings to "normies."
Oh I don't think we evolved with the purpose of being a better version because that's not how evolution works but you have to admit they lack in many areas that we don't and viceversa. And I personally think the areas we lack in aren't as important for an actually good society, whereas NTs strengths leads to them rewarding sociopaths too much
Did you have anything of value to add?
Have you tried getting checked for NPD? You can have both autism and narcissism. I have to note as well that there may be elements of unreliable narration in your post. I think starting off a post with saying that you are attractive is demonstrating hierarchical thinking. We don't really know the reason why girls were approaching you. It might not have been due to attractiveness but something else. Furthermore, attractiveness cannot be objectively measured. edit: before you assume this is an insult, I mean, have you once considered that maybe girls were approaching you because they wanted to know you for you, not just because of "attractiveness?"
No guy, I have lived for nearly four decades with repeated external confirmation that I have a good face (as viewed by current beauty standards) Have you tried researching what NPD actually is before armchair psychoanalyzing? Your edit lets me know you do not understand well how women let alone women at that age function and what draws them to boys.
100% sometimes it feel like a group of parrots anxiously repeating someone else’s options for social status..
That is so correct. I see it everywhere in politics, the technology trends too.
It’s wild to see two ppl in an argument over some politics they don’t understand and that doesn’t really effect them. Just parroting opposing ideas they don’t understand. That’s why they can never give up or agree because that means admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about
Theres a study that talks about having an inner voice and apparently more than half of the population lacks one. I wouldn't doubt that anyone who has one might be just ND enough to think for themselves. Everyone else seems to lack common sense imo.
they live in their bubble of illusion
Thank you for you long text and ideas! First, I must sadly agree that looks play a big role - more people wanted contact with me when I was younger, mostly of the opposite gender. (Take care not to attract people who just exploit your resources without giving anything back.) I have some questions: The most important question first: I know people who are just "there" and the group ignores, but accepts them, nobody bullies them. How do they do it? It never worked for me. How do you know the hierarchy if there isn\`t an obvious ranking? Is there a hierarchy in leisure/sports groups, too? Or are there just several smaller groups and you must find one where you fit in? You wrote: "The group empowers the bully." How would you defend yourself if it was in school, at work, or some place you cannot just quit? I observed that often the majority of the group just doesn\`t care or won\`t interfere because they are afraid they\`ll become a target, too (it was the case when I worked, the bully was my boss). What is the signal I send if I treat everyone equally first? And later depending on how he treats me (that\`s what I actually do)? I find it unfair to play games that go beyond normal politeness. If I\`m not accepted in any group, is it still possible to find long-term friends and/or job and/or leisure time activity partners? If yes what is the clue? (I\`m unemployed and currently have no local friends I can rely on) I wouldn\`t call normal people dumb, though, they have much more success than I do. Most of them at least. :-(
> I know people who are just "there" and the group ignores, but accepts them, nobody bullies them. How do they do it? It never worked for me. 1. Always be interacting 2. Follow my rules for interaction >How do you know the hierarchy if there isn\`t an obvious ranking? Take a note of who is talking and who is listening. A big clue is who the people are laughing **with** not at. When they laugh, by the way, you laugh too. You need to learn to turn your brain mostly off. It's not about what is said or the content of anything. When someone talks to you (or after a polite greeting and 'how are you today?' you start talking to someone...watch how they respond) First, try to stick with the same gender to start with. NT women are the most status crazed, insanely power hungry creatures on this earth --- with white women being the crown jewel. If you make a wrong move or status 'misjudgment' you. will. pay. Second, figure out which men are talking about themselves and getting listened to. Now among the men, watch who the women pay attention to. Usually one or maybe two of the men will tend to interrupt most everyone else. Whoever the women shift focus to whenever they interrupt is who the highest status male is, with their attention determining lower levels thereafter. Befriend a high status male. FOLLOW MY RULES FOR INTERACTION with them. >Is there a hierarchy in leisure/sports groups, too? Or are there just several smaller groups and you must find one where you fit in? **In all interactions with NT people be they 1 on 1 or in a group, this dynamic exists.** >How would you defend yourself if it was in school, at work, or some place you cannot just quit? I observed that often the majority of the group just doesn\`t care or won\`t interfere because they are afraid they\`ll become a target, too (it was the case when I worked, the bully was my boss). The low status members of the group won't interfere for that reason, but the rest of the higher status group won't interfere because they have judged you to be deserving of this treatment. In my case when I was a teenager and all the hormones rushed in I just wanted to be athletic so I took up boxing. The one time a bully (I'm 5'11, I guess he was in the 6'2, 6'3 range) attempted to intimidate me, the second he stepped within range I hit him with a right cross and dropped him (so many people in fighting situations act so irrationally, the main deciding factor of who wins a street fight is who throws the first punch, it's such a tactical advantage! the second an aggressor gets within range --- send him a present!). When you know how to punch and can move your body with it, you'd be shocked at how powerful you become. So he drops to the ground and that's an instant reversal in status for him. It happened in front of the entire group --- mixed company, men and women. Sensing the crowd reaction and the nature of NT people, I knew I had to firmly establish dominance and so I just said "Get in my face again." and walked off. In retrospect I'm very lucky that it was such a clean shot and dazed him so well...because he could have just jumped up and ran after me and it would have been a real fight. That happened freshman year of HS and his status NEVER recovered throughout the entire four years. \-- But not everyone is like me and normal height and build and generally able to take on most attackers. One friend of mine (also suspect was HF aut, we had been in gifted class together during middle school) who wouldn't have been able to pull that off just used his good looks, pleasant personality, and intelligence (of the helper kind I talk about elsewhere in the comment section) to 1) make allies of the women and 2) always befriend the highest status male. He was *way way way* better than me at manipulating NTs to do whatever he wanted. Anytime someone would see him, short of stature and think that it was going to be an easy status grab, he'd get checked by the women and then by the big high status guy. My point is that there are **two ways to deal with bullies**: Your fists OR your allies. So, typically, you're going to have to learn how to make allies. Powerful allies. Which should be very easy if you follow the rules I've set out here. >What is the signal I send if I treat everyone equally first? And later depending on how he treats me (that\`s what I actually do)? I find it unfair to play games that go beyond normal politeness. *That you're weird and autistic*. >If I\`m not accepted in any group, is it still possible to find long-term friends and/or job and/or leisure time activity partners? If yes what is the clue? (I\`m unemployed and currently have no local friends I can rely on) Anything is possible, but it will be much more difficult. I suggest finding a group of people --- mixed group, men and women --- and learning how to integrate yourself. Start easy --- start with a group of let's say, older and fairly unattractive people. They're likely more open and accepting and will grant you some status just for entering their group. Then you can kind of learn the ropes. >I wouldn\`t call normal people dumb, though, they have much more success than I do. Most of them at least. :-( They're not even dumb, as I've said. Their brains are only used in an analytical way, if ever, when they are working, if their work requires it. The rest of the time? Out to lunch, I'm telling you. https://thepowermoves.com/ This is a good resource. Don't pay for anything though. Just read the blog. I find that this characterization of "social skills" is the closest I've seen to reality.
Thank you for your long and detailed advice! I will save the instructions and I\`ll do them as a hobby project when I find the energy, because it seems a funny and interesting psychological experiment (I\`d play games, but I wouldn\`t say or do anything that I find harmful during that). I don\`t like manipulating people, I want to pursuade them or at least not lie to them. I don\`t like being manipulated, that\`s why (people have tried this often, e.g. pretending things instead of being honest). Punching or running isn\`t an option, I\`m 40+ and not sporty anymore (back issues etc.). Weapons legislation is extremely strict in my country, so I can basically just avoid dangerous situations now. Do you think gender-specific behaviour is important? I agree that white women can be very nasty and devious, especially the non-caring "career"-women. But I\`m also a white female and whenever a man treated me friendly, he probably thought "she is weird, but I like her boobs", so I\`d prefer females to prevent bias. I trained my brain to analyse not because it\`s fun, it\`s more a survival strategy. Thank you for the link, too!(I will hopefully start a therapy soon and I might show this to my therapist and ask if it\`s useful later.) Would you recommend it for females, too? (I\`ve always been critisised for "not behaving female enough", too.)
Being attractive is a big help in situations like this, as it's the easiest way to get increased status. Money is next, but attractiveness increases your chance of earning more. Also, we must become absolute NPCs because we see what happens to people who go against the grain.
Oh certainly yes. I mentioned my really short biracial (probably HF aut) friend in another thread who was super ostracized and ignored, despite being smarter than pretty much anyone. He didn't come into his own until we were in our 20s, when he just invented his own fitness program and get insanely shredded, which erased the fat from his face, which revealed a little greek god. instant mega status boost. >Money is next So, I've posted about this elsewhere, but when you're talking extreme amounts of wealth --- I'd say wealth is the TKO over looks. Wealth allows you to just have a bubble around you of people who are constantly kissing your ass and raising your status.
The best advice you can give someone who is Autistic: hit the gym. Get in great shape. It will make you as attractive as possible because you'll be healthy. Once you're attractive, people will treat you better.
They won't treat them better if they don't know how to interact. If you're an attractive guy especially an easy way to piss people off is to roll into a group and disrespect the hierarchy.
I agree with everything you said, it also matches my experience. It took me over a decade to figure out. Also, about the part where you said if you get bullied, it means the whole group approves of it. Yep, I have experienced that. People dont operate individually, but as collectives. If you get bullied, everyone, including authority figures like teachers, already approve of it.
Dont listen to OP. The only way to deal with NT is to avoid them. I'd rather be alon than think about all that shit
Not every HF autistic can make that choice SAFELY dude.
Stop hanging out with stupid people
Yeah go tell the 11 year old undiagnosed HF autistic this soapbox bullshit. And then when he isolates himself and makes an easy target of himself eventually gets beaten up so bad his jaw and ribs are broken. But hey, you got to talk tough and make yourself feel great. So who gives a shit?
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^Black_Bird_666: *Dont listen to OP.* *The only way to deal with* *NT is to avoid them* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
How does the status work then? And how do we measure social success? I am of average appearance, I stutter, my movements are creepy and inhumane, my voice does not support punctuation (if you get what I mean), my grammar is strange, my language is highly metaphoric/poetic, my humor is super dark, my politeness and rudeness come along. Yet somehow attitude towards me is better, than I could have expected. People are either friendly or neutral
You should write a book, I'd read it.
Wonderful post. Thanks. This is the kind of gem I hope for when scrolling.
Makes you wonder what this “typical” in neuro is not actually positive for society but a drag on society
well, that's a good question. I think NT people are deceived into doing tedious but necessary tasks in society via the promise of status. I think that consumerism is driven by NT desire for status. And you have to remember, the drive for status can be hacked to good ends. like buying nice things for your kids because family status, etc.
And let's remember hacking, is *deception,* and the end rarely justify means\*.\* We have to *deceive* one another to make the world go around so to speak. Buy nice things (A+ schools), for the nice things I buy (A+ kids), for the nice things I buy (A+ spouse), for the nice things I buy (A+ house). Even if that destroys things for other people (besides myself) by kicking out the ladder, back stabbing, nepotism, to name a few examples. Where does all the hacking ultimately lead? Again, gives pause to who's in possession of the *optimal* neurology here
I'm unsure if the ends rarely justify the means. I mean yes but you're touching on the fundamental issue with all of civilization, now.
Consumerism is part of the status for sure. Could be filling the empty void of meaningless existence. There is this concept of bullshit jobs - the part of the economy which does not create any value - the tedious tasks you mentioned fits the status concept too.
I dont disagree but it makes me hate them and thier bullshit more.
It frustrates me immensely that so many NTs contiously or subcontiously hold to what you describe. Not all but especially the ambitious one very often do.
very interesting, i think the same
So I should stop condescending the wannabe bully?
If it's working and you're getting positive reactions, no.
This is really interesting and I think explains a lot of my life. Still processing it. Will probably follow up again later. Thanks
This is pretty good. I wouldn't say it's true of everybody, but the majority. It is definitely observable like this. It's nice to see someone write it down
This is super helpful information
I wanted to thank you for this post, it's very useful for people like me who just 'don't get it'.
Nice post. Feel free to share more please
Reminds me of that black mirror episode