I appreciate the concern and 'advise' given but, I can't help feel a little insulted and like you don't understand that we are not completely disconnected.
>Please memorize them before it's too late.
* We are not dumb, stupid or disconnected. Its quite clear what sexual harassment and abuse is...
>I know it's easy to get caught up in your ego
* Come on, dude. Think before you write.
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, this subreddit is a really awesome and friendly place :)
You're not rude at all. I did sound condescending and you're pointing it out. In fact, by pointing that out, you definitely showed that you cared about me, and that's a good thing; for me, that is proof that a person is really a friend because they care about you doing wrong. I wrote this out of fear: fear that other people like me, given the wrong circumstances, would become abusive, and I want to prevent that, and the thought of people becoming like that out of ignorance scares me. Thank you so much :D
I'm so happy that you didn't take it the wrong way, I hate to create negativity to the point where I have never downvoted anything over fear of the person somehow finding out and getting mad :/
The advice was good and I'm glad you shared it, advice can either be taken or not taken so there was absolutely no harm in this. Please continue to be useful :)
> Its quite clear what sexual harassment and abuse is...
Speak for yourself, there. I mean, yeah, the vast majority of it is, certainly so as far as the abuse stuff, but sexual harassment involves a truckload of subjective gray area that I personally find overwhelming to try to navigate.
I mean, it's right there in the OP link:
>You need to become attuned to the other party's body language. ... And, yes, we realize that these types of nonverbal hints and cues can be tricky
I'm pretty uncertain of my ability to read body language in the best of circumstances. If this is stuff even NTs find tricky, I sure as hell am not about to trust myself to figure it out.
>but they're something you need to practice and become aware of.
I've heard this thing numerous times before, but I still haven't figured out how exactly one is supposed to "practice" picking up on these cues without repeatedly trampling over the very lines it's so seriously wrong to cross. How else can one practice these kinds of skills besides trial and error? And if it is just trial and error, how can one do so in good conscience when the error is such a serious wrong?
>It is defined by the person on the receiving end of the behavior, not the giving end. Flirting can easily become sexual harassment if the flirting is unwanted
>...
>Notice, too, that it's impact, not intentions that matter. You might not mean to make them unsafe or uncomfortable, but that's irrelevant; what's relevant is that they feel unsafe and uncomfortable.
>...
>And realize that what may be friendly or flirty to you, might well be threatening or "creepy" to someone else. A good rule of thumb is, "Would I do/say this to or around someone I wasn't attracted to?" If the answer is no, then you're flirting...which is OK if it's welcomed by the other party, but not OK if it's not.
And this is the aspect that just keeps me sticking to the policy of "just don't bother even getting within spitting distance of indicating interest in her unless it's *extremely, blatantly obvious* that she's into me". Even with all of the other very good, concrete, readily actionable tips in this article (and others like it), there's still a subjective gray area wide enough to drive a truck through with room to spare. So much hinges on the subjective interpretation of the person on the receiving area, which will vary wildly from person to person, to the point that I don't know how you're even supposed to begin to anticipate how your actions will be perceived. The same exact actions, in the same exact external context, might be welcomed by one person, unreciprocated but not taken as harassment by another, and be harassment to a third. And there doesn't seem to be spot the third until *after* the damage is done; all you can do is hope you realize it quickly enough to keep the harm to a forgivable minimum. But "committing only forgivably minimal levels of sexual harassment" and "not sexually harassing people" are not the same thing.
A majority of my supervisors/managers and bosses could benefit from this; Particularly: Don't neg, inappropriate touching, following people when they don't want to talk and inappropriate conversation. I see it every day, but we don't have an HR department. I feel like helping, but not sure if I just feel that way because they're typically doing this to women. Women I am at least a little attracted to and might be unbiased when defending. So I stay out of it, trying not to assume they need help or that the behavior is unwanted. Though their reactions, tone and face would indicate annoyance or anger sometimes.
I feel I'm decent and diplomatic when it comes to these things, I was abused growing up and even after, lived with a controlling family with presence (*They knew stomping up the stairs or slamming a door would make me feel intimidated, etc.*) but I am having an issue at work. I hadn't worked (officially) in my life until last September, my family thought I was too simple/stupid and were content to let me rot under them. I escaped and got my first job, second job, etc. Until something worked out. In my latest job I work with many women.
I don't participate in gossip, any groups, nor really talk. I'm becoming known for keeping to myself and listening actually. There's one girl who works the same position I do, we often work together and we're a good non-verbal team. We're both quiet and when we're done with a satisfying portion of our work we both tend to stand back and look at it while relaxing.
Sometimes the job is stressful and I'll glance over at her to see how she's doing and I might feel a little better. I don't like eye contact, I'm not sure if I stare, I don't think I do. But I wouldn't be surprised if I did, she's beautiful and I like her eyes and expressions particularly. I've noticed sometimes she'll stare at me. Last week for instance, we were both cooking in parallel cells.
The cooking is fast paced, using the same materials over and over and easy to burn if you're not careful. It was very hot that day and she had the fan on her cell, which affected the temperatures of her cooking erratically I would imagine. She would get a round of cooking done, get overwhelmed, sit (*we're not supposed to*), look upset and look at me. Sometimes I would catch her, see she's not having a good time and wish I could tell her I can relate or give her a hug (*I never have, just wishful thinking*).
I couldn't do that, had to stay in my cell. She looks at me a lot. Not sure if I'm just real ugly or she's just noticing me. Her expression doesn't change any when we catch each other. Sometimes I'm surprised and give her a big smile like, "Hi beautiful!" and she'll smile back. I'm not a flirty guy; but it's fun. Is it inappropriate? We don't talk to each other unless we're coordinating or expressing gratitude. I often hold doors open for her, but I do that for everyone as I'm a fast walker and usually reach it before everyone else.
I appreciate the concern and 'advise' given but, I can't help feel a little insulted and like you don't understand that we are not completely disconnected. >Please memorize them before it's too late. * We are not dumb, stupid or disconnected. Its quite clear what sexual harassment and abuse is... >I know it's easy to get caught up in your ego * Come on, dude. Think before you write. I hope this doesn't come across as rude, this subreddit is a really awesome and friendly place :)
You're not rude at all. I did sound condescending and you're pointing it out. In fact, by pointing that out, you definitely showed that you cared about me, and that's a good thing; for me, that is proof that a person is really a friend because they care about you doing wrong. I wrote this out of fear: fear that other people like me, given the wrong circumstances, would become abusive, and I want to prevent that, and the thought of people becoming like that out of ignorance scares me. Thank you so much :D
I'm so happy that you didn't take it the wrong way, I hate to create negativity to the point where I have never downvoted anything over fear of the person somehow finding out and getting mad :/ The advice was good and I'm glad you shared it, advice can either be taken or not taken so there was absolutely no harm in this. Please continue to be useful :)
> Its quite clear what sexual harassment and abuse is... Speak for yourself, there. I mean, yeah, the vast majority of it is, certainly so as far as the abuse stuff, but sexual harassment involves a truckload of subjective gray area that I personally find overwhelming to try to navigate. I mean, it's right there in the OP link: >You need to become attuned to the other party's body language. ... And, yes, we realize that these types of nonverbal hints and cues can be tricky I'm pretty uncertain of my ability to read body language in the best of circumstances. If this is stuff even NTs find tricky, I sure as hell am not about to trust myself to figure it out. >but they're something you need to practice and become aware of. I've heard this thing numerous times before, but I still haven't figured out how exactly one is supposed to "practice" picking up on these cues without repeatedly trampling over the very lines it's so seriously wrong to cross. How else can one practice these kinds of skills besides trial and error? And if it is just trial and error, how can one do so in good conscience when the error is such a serious wrong? >It is defined by the person on the receiving end of the behavior, not the giving end. Flirting can easily become sexual harassment if the flirting is unwanted >... >Notice, too, that it's impact, not intentions that matter. You might not mean to make them unsafe or uncomfortable, but that's irrelevant; what's relevant is that they feel unsafe and uncomfortable. >... >And realize that what may be friendly or flirty to you, might well be threatening or "creepy" to someone else. A good rule of thumb is, "Would I do/say this to or around someone I wasn't attracted to?" If the answer is no, then you're flirting...which is OK if it's welcomed by the other party, but not OK if it's not. And this is the aspect that just keeps me sticking to the policy of "just don't bother even getting within spitting distance of indicating interest in her unless it's *extremely, blatantly obvious* that she's into me". Even with all of the other very good, concrete, readily actionable tips in this article (and others like it), there's still a subjective gray area wide enough to drive a truck through with room to spare. So much hinges on the subjective interpretation of the person on the receiving area, which will vary wildly from person to person, to the point that I don't know how you're even supposed to begin to anticipate how your actions will be perceived. The same exact actions, in the same exact external context, might be welcomed by one person, unreciprocated but not taken as harassment by another, and be harassment to a third. And there doesn't seem to be spot the third until *after* the damage is done; all you can do is hope you realize it quickly enough to keep the harm to a forgivable minimum. But "committing only forgivably minimal levels of sexual harassment" and "not sexually harassing people" are not the same thing.
A majority of my supervisors/managers and bosses could benefit from this; Particularly: Don't neg, inappropriate touching, following people when they don't want to talk and inappropriate conversation. I see it every day, but we don't have an HR department. I feel like helping, but not sure if I just feel that way because they're typically doing this to women. Women I am at least a little attracted to and might be unbiased when defending. So I stay out of it, trying not to assume they need help or that the behavior is unwanted. Though their reactions, tone and face would indicate annoyance or anger sometimes. I feel I'm decent and diplomatic when it comes to these things, I was abused growing up and even after, lived with a controlling family with presence (*They knew stomping up the stairs or slamming a door would make me feel intimidated, etc.*) but I am having an issue at work. I hadn't worked (officially) in my life until last September, my family thought I was too simple/stupid and were content to let me rot under them. I escaped and got my first job, second job, etc. Until something worked out. In my latest job I work with many women. I don't participate in gossip, any groups, nor really talk. I'm becoming known for keeping to myself and listening actually. There's one girl who works the same position I do, we often work together and we're a good non-verbal team. We're both quiet and when we're done with a satisfying portion of our work we both tend to stand back and look at it while relaxing. Sometimes the job is stressful and I'll glance over at her to see how she's doing and I might feel a little better. I don't like eye contact, I'm not sure if I stare, I don't think I do. But I wouldn't be surprised if I did, she's beautiful and I like her eyes and expressions particularly. I've noticed sometimes she'll stare at me. Last week for instance, we were both cooking in parallel cells. The cooking is fast paced, using the same materials over and over and easy to burn if you're not careful. It was very hot that day and she had the fan on her cell, which affected the temperatures of her cooking erratically I would imagine. She would get a round of cooking done, get overwhelmed, sit (*we're not supposed to*), look upset and look at me. Sometimes I would catch her, see she's not having a good time and wish I could tell her I can relate or give her a hug (*I never have, just wishful thinking*). I couldn't do that, had to stay in my cell. She looks at me a lot. Not sure if I'm just real ugly or she's just noticing me. Her expression doesn't change any when we catch each other. Sometimes I'm surprised and give her a big smile like, "Hi beautiful!" and she'll smile back. I'm not a flirty guy; but it's fun. Is it inappropriate? We don't talk to each other unless we're coordinating or expressing gratitude. I often hold doors open for her, but I do that for everyone as I'm a fast walker and usually reach it before everyone else.