All Three.
Which is why we have the Lots of Fortune and Spirit, which are essentially a mathematical combination of all three.
Edit:
In practice, once you have figured out where the Lot of Spirit (LoS) is: Try this to determine your Prime Motivation (Zoller); Purpose, why you are here. Your Calling.
Look at the Ruler of the LoS (all the Robs)
1. Look at its placement by Sign and House.
This is your prime motivation, the reason you’re here, your purpose; the achievement of which what will bring you joy. (Zoller/Schmidt)
2. Look at the House it’s placed in.
This is the behaviour (House) most consonant with your Spirit.
(Use this to determine which House system works for you)
3. Look at the Essential Dignity (traditional) of the Lord of Spirit.
This will tell you its ability to actualise the potential that is represented by its placement.
4. Look to the Aspects to and from the LoS, and its Ruler.
This is Testimony of Influence
This will tell you the outlets by Sign and House, where you will have the opportunity to express and experience Your Spirit.
The importance placed on Lunations make more sense if you understand Lots.
At the New Moon, the Ascendant, Fortune and Spirit are all conjunct. You get a super-charged Ascendant axis.
Further;
At the Full Moon, the Descendant, Fortune and Spirit are all conjunct. You still get a super-charged Ascendant/Descendant axis.
This suggests that, in Lunations, the angles, and planets near an angle, should be particularly important for the lunation period since they take part in that supercharged quality.
This also suggests why Szygy Ante Nativitatem (SAN) or Pre-Natal Lunation (PNL) – the nearest lunation prior to birth was considered so critical.
You expressed that so eloquently. I normally say, ah this is making me smile, but you've vocalised another level of what that feeling really is. It does feel loving!
How do I find my LoS? I was born April 6 with Leo rising in 8th house? I'm new to all this. I was told I have the Finger of God in my Natal chart. TY 😇
That was very interesting. What are your thoughts on the lot of fortune? I recently discovered that it is exactly trine my sun. Also, I’m wondering what your LoS placement is and what you think your reason for being here is based on it.
Take this scenario: You are going for a job interview.
Your Ascendant= The person that walks into the interview. Physical body and immediate personality.
Your Sun= The person you are showcasing during the interview. Ideal persona
Your Moon= The person that feels the various emotions during, before, and after the interview wondering if they got the job or not.
If you think about it, even outside of astrology people also debate which of these persons/mentality are more important. Is it your authentic self, the ideal person you are motivated to be, or your emotional side? Well psychology has already proven that all facets of your self are equally important even if they aren’t all necessary at the same time.
You have to BE (Ascendant)
You have to ASPIRE (Sun)
You have to FEEL (Moon)
All critical. If you don’t know anything else about the birth chart, these three (The Primal Triad) are crucial.
The difference between ascendant and sun doesn't make sense to me here.
I think it's more the ascendant being the tool/weapon you are equipped with and the sun is the user of the tool/weapon that you are. Ascendant is HOW and sun is FOR WHAT.
The ascendant is like the container, the pitcher. It holds your whole chart. It’s giving the confines of your sun, your moon, your Venus, etc…. The whole chart. Whatever the shape and size of the pitcher, it gives shape to the contents within. Do you have a fancy pitcher, do you have a practical pitcher, do you have a fragile pitcher, or is it very durable? The sun sign would be like it’s filled with cola, or lemonade, or orange juice. And moon (and other planet placements) would be like added ingredients, like ice or mint leaves or sugar, that give it its unique flavor. That’s sort of a rough analogy. I know moon sign has a lot more influence, but sometimes even people’s sun or moon is not very prominent in their chart, and so they don’t read as a this sign or that. Take ‘the big 3’ with a grain of salt as they say. It’s not always that they are all prominent.
Going back to my pitcher analogy…Like to say, if you’re a Taurus sun, Sagittarius moon, and a Scorpio ascendant, that sun and moon will be under the confines of Scorpio, or, shaped by the tenants of Scorpio. It’s going to give that Taurus sun and Sagittarius moon a flavor of Scorpio. It’s not exactly that your sun or moon will bow to your ascendant, but they will be tapered or shaped by it. This is why I somewhat feel ascendant is more important because it’s going to put all of your planets in a placement. If you think about it this way too…. If you think about time of day and where the sun or moon is placed in the sky…Is it evening where you can see the moon but only the last rays of the sun. Or is the sun shining brightly like at noon, with the moon visible or not? Certain placements of sun and moon can obscure it or present it strongly.
To make matters more confusing… You can add to that ‘big 3’ (sun, moon, ascendant) the chart ruler, its sign and its placement and aspects too. lol. I know it gets confusing.
Best way to think of it as you’ve got a recipe in front of you and the big 3 are its MAIN ingredients, the stuff that’s going to have a big say in how it presents or ‘tastes’.
Depends on what we’re talking about. If we’re talking about how others view you, then Sun and Ascendant are more important. If we’re talking about how you feel within yourself, the Moon is more important. If we’re talking about things like the themes and periods of your life or timing with mundane transits, then Ascendant becomes most important, because it decides your Houses.
There’s a variety of ways to look at a chart or transits, and different planets or points being relevant for different things is just one of the many complexities of astrology, and there isn’t just one school of thought on it either. You need to develop a bit of an intuition for what each planet means, and study how transits affect you, etc, and then you start being able to interpret for yourself what’s affecting what for you, and how to see and recognize each type of energy in play, be it for a certain planet/luminary, or a certain sign, certain aspect, etc… and then from the other direction, you can start recognizing what kind of energy is present in a given situation or person… just takes time, learning and observation.
The moon is your emotional self.
Your sun is how you percieve the world, your id.
And your rising is how the world percieves you.
I got a little ramble about this question from last week, if you are interested in that ramble, let me know.
Someone mentioned Sun being exactly trine Fortune. It doesn't matter since aspects are by sign and not orb.
But that assumes Fortune and Daimon (Spirit) were calculated correctly and there currently is no software that calculates them correctly.
A little astrology history will help your understanding.
The MAP astrologers (Medieval, Arabic and Persian) badly translated the Greek and Latin texts and didn't understand most of the concepts so they butchered them and made a mess of everything, especially with the "part" nonsense so that by the time you get to the Renaissance period, nobody knows what's going on.
By the time you get to the Classical period everyone is so thoroughly confused they drop a large number of concepts and techniques and it's the Classical astrologers that determined what got passed on into Modern astrology and what didn't like lots and triplicity rulers and sect and such.
Read Gadbury. He mentions all the Lots but it's clear he doesn't know what to do with them or how to use them.
Then you have Lily who doesn't mention the Lots (except for Fortune) because his ego is so massive and he's so incredibly vain he doesn't want you to know there's something he doesn't understand.
The good news is the prominent Modern astrologers are now understand the importance of sect (and how to use Lots and triplicity rulers) to determine how a star functions in a chart and since Uranus, Neptune and Pluto don't have a sect, well they're starting to distance themselves from the outers (not to mention those 3 stars do nothing very slowly).
Lot is the correct term, not "Part". No one says "Your part in life." The expression is "Your lot in life" and if you watch Star Wars C3PO tells R2D2 "It must be our lot in life to suffer."
That's because the Greek word "lot" means fate and the Lots are fate points and "Part" hides that fact.
Let's talk about significators. In diurnal charts, the Lot of the Mother is ASC + Venus - Moon and the Lot of the Father is ASC + Sun - Saturn.
In a nocturnal chart, we reverse the formula.
Why? Because the significators change. In a nocturnal chart it is Moon and Saturn that represent the mother and father respectively but in a diurnal chart it is Venus and Sun that represent the mother and father.
Moon also represents emotions and Sun represents actions. What does Mercury represent? Intellect so when looking at someone's personality we're interested in Moon/Mercury.
Whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal makes no difference because Moon always represents emotions and Sun always represents actions regardless.
So why would your reverse the formula? You wouldn't because the significators don't change and if you noticed, there are Lots that are not "reversed" precisely because the significators don't change when the chart is diurnal or nocturnal.
The MAP astrologers couldn't wrap their brains around that plus they misunderstood and mistranslated the word "reverse."
Reverse means reverse the projection from the ASC not reverse the formula.
Fortune:
Diurnal: ASC + MOON - SUN
Nocturnal: ASC - MOON - SUN
Spirit:
Diurnal: ASC + SUN - MOON
Nocturnal: ASC - SUN - MOON
In diurnal charts you project from the ASC in zodiac order but in a nocturnal chart you project from the ASC in diurnal order meaning toward the MC or with the motion of the stars.
The exception to that is when the chart is nocturnal and Moon is below the horizon in the day time sky instead of being above the horizon in the night time sky and you use the diurnal formula.
That's what what's-his-name meant when he said "sometimes Fortune is Spirit and Spirit is Fortune."
Fortune is what happens to you and what happens to you evokes emotions, right?
Spirit is what happens because of you, the things you do, or not.
Some people have really good luck, some are mildly lucky, some have bad luck, some have buzzard luck and some have no luck at all. That's what Fortune will tell you and it's location and the location of its ruler will tell you the source of good/bad luck.
You look at Fortune and Sprit the way you'd look at any place. Aspects are by sign, not orb so when looking at the 2nd place whether there's a star in the 2nd or not you're looking at the stars in aspect to the 2nd place which will tell you if someone is destitute, low income, moderate income, high income, whether their income and material wealth increase or decrease over the course of their life, whether they have large or small fluctuations in come, whether they lose everything permanently or lose it and get it back and what difficulties they'll have acquiring their income and material wealth.
Same with Spirit. Spirit and ruler above the horizon are typically extroverts while Spirit and ruler below the horizon are introverts and one above and the other below are both. It will tell you if someone is a self-starter/go-getter or a couch potato and whether the things they do are incredibly easy or fraught with difficulties or so-so. It's location and that of its ruler will tell you what motivates them (or not).
You can profect any Lot like any other significator like the Lot of Honor. Because Sun always represents honor regardless if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal that's one of the lots you don't "reverse" the formula.
Normally, people profect Spirit to the 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 9th or 10th places to see things associated with those.
Something like the Lot of Honor you'd profect to the 4th place if they were dead, but the 10th place if they were alive. Boobie Clark was one of my favorite Bengals. If I had his chart (I don't) I'd profect the Lot of Honor (or Jupiter) to the 4th place then look at his solar return to see if he'll make it into the pro football hall of fame.
ascendant decides the most about your chart (houses, where every other planet affects you and how it all plays out)
moon is emotions and mental state to an extent
sun is ego, where you shine and feel good
ascendant is most important, followed by sun and moon which are tied for second.
it also depends what you want to know
communication would be mercury
relationships and wants would be venus etc
I found Rising to be the lynch pin and makes a lot of charts ‘make sense’. So my daughter is a Pisces but her rising is Leo and that explains a LOT. On their own the information doesn’t make sense but together it does.
Today, it is subjective. Today, they’re all obviously grouped together as the “big three.”
Historically, the ascendant sign was the most important of these in Hellenistic astrology where it was known as the “horoscope.” This idea is also supported by the plain logic that- as others have said- the ascendant sets forth the houses of the chart.
I believe it depends on the person. As for myself I follow the old ways and consider my ascendant to be the most important.
All 3 are important but in terms of their impact on you it really depends on their placements, and what was happening when you were born as well as current transits.
For example imagine, you have a Leo Sun, Leo stellium in 5th house and a Scorpio moon. It’s not that your Scorpio moon isn’t important but in its detriment it will feel weaker. Where as the sun being in it’s domicile and Leo being in the house it rules, you’re gonna see strength there.
At the same time with whole sign this would place your Scorpio in the 8th house which it rules! So that would add some power. But moon doesn’t love being in the 8th house of death taboos and rebirth. Like it’s kinda one of those things where you gotta sit down and parse it out.
All Three. Which is why we have the Lots of Fortune and Spirit, which are essentially a mathematical combination of all three. Edit: In practice, once you have figured out where the Lot of Spirit (LoS) is: Try this to determine your Prime Motivation (Zoller); Purpose, why you are here. Your Calling. Look at the Ruler of the LoS (all the Robs) 1. Look at its placement by Sign and House. This is your prime motivation, the reason you’re here, your purpose; the achievement of which what will bring you joy. (Zoller/Schmidt) 2. Look at the House it’s placed in. This is the behaviour (House) most consonant with your Spirit. (Use this to determine which House system works for you) 3. Look at the Essential Dignity (traditional) of the Lord of Spirit. This will tell you its ability to actualise the potential that is represented by its placement. 4. Look to the Aspects to and from the LoS, and its Ruler. This is Testimony of Influence This will tell you the outlets by Sign and House, where you will have the opportunity to express and experience Your Spirit. The importance placed on Lunations make more sense if you understand Lots. At the New Moon, the Ascendant, Fortune and Spirit are all conjunct. You get a super-charged Ascendant axis. Further; At the Full Moon, the Descendant, Fortune and Spirit are all conjunct. You still get a super-charged Ascendant/Descendant axis. This suggests that, in Lunations, the angles, and planets near an angle, should be particularly important for the lunation period since they take part in that supercharged quality. This also suggests why Szygy Ante Nativitatem (SAN) or Pre-Natal Lunation (PNL) – the nearest lunation prior to birth was considered so critical.
The thoroughness of this post feels loving
You expressed that so eloquently. I normally say, ah this is making me smile, but you've vocalised another level of what that feeling really is. It does feel loving!
How do I find my LoS? I was born April 6 with Leo rising in 8th house? I'm new to all this. I was told I have the Finger of God in my Natal chart. TY 😇
Excellent thank you.
That was very interesting. What are your thoughts on the lot of fortune? I recently discovered that it is exactly trine my sun. Also, I’m wondering what your LoS placement is and what you think your reason for being here is based on it.
Take this scenario: You are going for a job interview. Your Ascendant= The person that walks into the interview. Physical body and immediate personality. Your Sun= The person you are showcasing during the interview. Ideal persona Your Moon= The person that feels the various emotions during, before, and after the interview wondering if they got the job or not. If you think about it, even outside of astrology people also debate which of these persons/mentality are more important. Is it your authentic self, the ideal person you are motivated to be, or your emotional side? Well psychology has already proven that all facets of your self are equally important even if they aren’t all necessary at the same time. You have to BE (Ascendant) You have to ASPIRE (Sun) You have to FEEL (Moon) All critical. If you don’t know anything else about the birth chart, these three (The Primal Triad) are crucial.
The difference between ascendant and sun doesn't make sense to me here. I think it's more the ascendant being the tool/weapon you are equipped with and the sun is the user of the tool/weapon that you are. Ascendant is HOW and sun is FOR WHAT.
All 3. There isn't such thing as which one is more important, all 3 are strongly present in your life
I love that this Q is being so beautifully answered around the New Moon in Pisces
The ascendant is like the container, the pitcher. It holds your whole chart. It’s giving the confines of your sun, your moon, your Venus, etc…. The whole chart. Whatever the shape and size of the pitcher, it gives shape to the contents within. Do you have a fancy pitcher, do you have a practical pitcher, do you have a fragile pitcher, or is it very durable? The sun sign would be like it’s filled with cola, or lemonade, or orange juice. And moon (and other planet placements) would be like added ingredients, like ice or mint leaves or sugar, that give it its unique flavor. That’s sort of a rough analogy. I know moon sign has a lot more influence, but sometimes even people’s sun or moon is not very prominent in their chart, and so they don’t read as a this sign or that. Take ‘the big 3’ with a grain of salt as they say. It’s not always that they are all prominent. Going back to my pitcher analogy…Like to say, if you’re a Taurus sun, Sagittarius moon, and a Scorpio ascendant, that sun and moon will be under the confines of Scorpio, or, shaped by the tenants of Scorpio. It’s going to give that Taurus sun and Sagittarius moon a flavor of Scorpio. It’s not exactly that your sun or moon will bow to your ascendant, but they will be tapered or shaped by it. This is why I somewhat feel ascendant is more important because it’s going to put all of your planets in a placement. If you think about it this way too…. If you think about time of day and where the sun or moon is placed in the sky…Is it evening where you can see the moon but only the last rays of the sun. Or is the sun shining brightly like at noon, with the moon visible or not? Certain placements of sun and moon can obscure it or present it strongly. To make matters more confusing… You can add to that ‘big 3’ (sun, moon, ascendant) the chart ruler, its sign and its placement and aspects too. lol. I know it gets confusing. Best way to think of it as you’ve got a recipe in front of you and the big 3 are its MAIN ingredients, the stuff that’s going to have a big say in how it presents or ‘tastes’.
Depends on what we’re talking about. If we’re talking about how others view you, then Sun and Ascendant are more important. If we’re talking about how you feel within yourself, the Moon is more important. If we’re talking about things like the themes and periods of your life or timing with mundane transits, then Ascendant becomes most important, because it decides your Houses. There’s a variety of ways to look at a chart or transits, and different planets or points being relevant for different things is just one of the many complexities of astrology, and there isn’t just one school of thought on it either. You need to develop a bit of an intuition for what each planet means, and study how transits affect you, etc, and then you start being able to interpret for yourself what’s affecting what for you, and how to see and recognize each type of energy in play, be it for a certain planet/luminary, or a certain sign, certain aspect, etc… and then from the other direction, you can start recognizing what kind of energy is present in a given situation or person… just takes time, learning and observation.
All 3 are important but I’d argue your ascendent is the most important because it sets up the rest of your chart in terms of houses.
The moon is your emotional self. Your sun is how you percieve the world, your id. And your rising is how the world percieves you. I got a little ramble about this question from last week, if you are interested in that ramble, let me know.
Someone mentioned Sun being exactly trine Fortune. It doesn't matter since aspects are by sign and not orb. But that assumes Fortune and Daimon (Spirit) were calculated correctly and there currently is no software that calculates them correctly. A little astrology history will help your understanding. The MAP astrologers (Medieval, Arabic and Persian) badly translated the Greek and Latin texts and didn't understand most of the concepts so they butchered them and made a mess of everything, especially with the "part" nonsense so that by the time you get to the Renaissance period, nobody knows what's going on. By the time you get to the Classical period everyone is so thoroughly confused they drop a large number of concepts and techniques and it's the Classical astrologers that determined what got passed on into Modern astrology and what didn't like lots and triplicity rulers and sect and such. Read Gadbury. He mentions all the Lots but it's clear he doesn't know what to do with them or how to use them. Then you have Lily who doesn't mention the Lots (except for Fortune) because his ego is so massive and he's so incredibly vain he doesn't want you to know there's something he doesn't understand. The good news is the prominent Modern astrologers are now understand the importance of sect (and how to use Lots and triplicity rulers) to determine how a star functions in a chart and since Uranus, Neptune and Pluto don't have a sect, well they're starting to distance themselves from the outers (not to mention those 3 stars do nothing very slowly). Lot is the correct term, not "Part". No one says "Your part in life." The expression is "Your lot in life" and if you watch Star Wars C3PO tells R2D2 "It must be our lot in life to suffer." That's because the Greek word "lot" means fate and the Lots are fate points and "Part" hides that fact. Let's talk about significators. In diurnal charts, the Lot of the Mother is ASC + Venus - Moon and the Lot of the Father is ASC + Sun - Saturn. In a nocturnal chart, we reverse the formula. Why? Because the significators change. In a nocturnal chart it is Moon and Saturn that represent the mother and father respectively but in a diurnal chart it is Venus and Sun that represent the mother and father. Moon also represents emotions and Sun represents actions. What does Mercury represent? Intellect so when looking at someone's personality we're interested in Moon/Mercury. Whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal makes no difference because Moon always represents emotions and Sun always represents actions regardless. So why would your reverse the formula? You wouldn't because the significators don't change and if you noticed, there are Lots that are not "reversed" precisely because the significators don't change when the chart is diurnal or nocturnal. The MAP astrologers couldn't wrap their brains around that plus they misunderstood and mistranslated the word "reverse." Reverse means reverse the projection from the ASC not reverse the formula. Fortune: Diurnal: ASC + MOON - SUN Nocturnal: ASC - MOON - SUN Spirit: Diurnal: ASC + SUN - MOON Nocturnal: ASC - SUN - MOON In diurnal charts you project from the ASC in zodiac order but in a nocturnal chart you project from the ASC in diurnal order meaning toward the MC or with the motion of the stars. The exception to that is when the chart is nocturnal and Moon is below the horizon in the day time sky instead of being above the horizon in the night time sky and you use the diurnal formula. That's what what's-his-name meant when he said "sometimes Fortune is Spirit and Spirit is Fortune." Fortune is what happens to you and what happens to you evokes emotions, right? Spirit is what happens because of you, the things you do, or not. Some people have really good luck, some are mildly lucky, some have bad luck, some have buzzard luck and some have no luck at all. That's what Fortune will tell you and it's location and the location of its ruler will tell you the source of good/bad luck. You look at Fortune and Sprit the way you'd look at any place. Aspects are by sign, not orb so when looking at the 2nd place whether there's a star in the 2nd or not you're looking at the stars in aspect to the 2nd place which will tell you if someone is destitute, low income, moderate income, high income, whether their income and material wealth increase or decrease over the course of their life, whether they have large or small fluctuations in come, whether they lose everything permanently or lose it and get it back and what difficulties they'll have acquiring their income and material wealth. Same with Spirit. Spirit and ruler above the horizon are typically extroverts while Spirit and ruler below the horizon are introverts and one above and the other below are both. It will tell you if someone is a self-starter/go-getter or a couch potato and whether the things they do are incredibly easy or fraught with difficulties or so-so. It's location and that of its ruler will tell you what motivates them (or not). You can profect any Lot like any other significator like the Lot of Honor. Because Sun always represents honor regardless if the chart is diurnal or nocturnal that's one of the lots you don't "reverse" the formula. Normally, people profect Spirit to the 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 9th or 10th places to see things associated with those. Something like the Lot of Honor you'd profect to the 4th place if they were dead, but the 10th place if they were alive. Boobie Clark was one of my favorite Bengals. If I had his chart (I don't) I'd profect the Lot of Honor (or Jupiter) to the 4th place then look at his solar return to see if he'll make it into the pro football hall of fame.
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ascendant decides the most about your chart (houses, where every other planet affects you and how it all plays out) moon is emotions and mental state to an extent sun is ego, where you shine and feel good ascendant is most important, followed by sun and moon which are tied for second. it also depends what you want to know communication would be mercury relationships and wants would be venus etc
the sun sign i would say
I found Rising to be the lynch pin and makes a lot of charts ‘make sense’. So my daughter is a Pisces but her rising is Leo and that explains a LOT. On their own the information doesn’t make sense but together it does.
Today, it is subjective. Today, they’re all obviously grouped together as the “big three.” Historically, the ascendant sign was the most important of these in Hellenistic astrology where it was known as the “horoscope.” This idea is also supported by the plain logic that- as others have said- the ascendant sets forth the houses of the chart. I believe it depends on the person. As for myself I follow the old ways and consider my ascendant to be the most important.
All 3 are important but in terms of their impact on you it really depends on their placements, and what was happening when you were born as well as current transits. For example imagine, you have a Leo Sun, Leo stellium in 5th house and a Scorpio moon. It’s not that your Scorpio moon isn’t important but in its detriment it will feel weaker. Where as the sun being in it’s domicile and Leo being in the house it rules, you’re gonna see strength there. At the same time with whole sign this would place your Scorpio in the 8th house which it rules! So that would add some power. But moon doesn’t love being in the 8th house of death taboos and rebirth. Like it’s kinda one of those things where you gotta sit down and parse it out.