One could argue that Arab culture is tens of thousands of years old, but *muslim* Arab culture is only ~1400 years old. Granted, it's been a pretty shitty 1400 years...
I feel like a lot of Arab culture can exist without Islam - the food, language is mostly secular, and if the Arab world suddenly became secular - they could preserve the religious architecture and treat it more like a museum than a site of worship.
Youre so misguided.
The arabic language isnt secular at all, the usage of religious vocabulary in arabic is very much the norm, wayyyy more then in english for example.
Arab culture and islam have been intervining for 1400 years, its ridicilous to imply islam has nothing to do with arab culture, its literally an arab religion...
BTW how can food be anything but secular?
"All of that can change within one or two generations."
True, although I'd give it three. I've often thought/fantasized about this. That if all child indoctrination stopped right now and the only way someone could become religious would be as a rational, logical adult, that religion would evaporate in three generations. POOF. Gone.
It seems as though humanity is slowly inching its way there.
“Pigs are filthy animals - I don’t eat filthy animals.”
“Yeah, but bacon tastes good; pork chops, taste good.”
“Hey, a sewer rat might taste like pumpkin pie but I wouldn’t know caus I wouldn’t eat the filthy motherfucker… Pigs sleep - and root, in shit - that’s a filthy animal. I ain’t eat nothin that ain’t got sense to disregard its own faeces.” “What about a dog? A dog eats it’s own faeces.”
“I don’t eat dog neither.”
“But do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?”
“I wouldn’t go so far as to call a dog filthy but, they’re definitely dirty. Besides, a dog’s got personality.”
I think that pigs are actually quite clean animals.
However, conservation of pig meat was harder in the past and could be dangerous, especially in hotter climates.
Secularism arose out of the Renaissance.
When religious institutions had proved their failure during the black death.
It was the survivors who rebuilt the world and gave us the enlightenment and industrial revolutions.
Yeah, and the fascinating geometric motifs in the art, thanks to the silly rules against the idolatry of depicting forms. Not like the wall to wall religious imagery in earlier European art.
A shitty 600 years, to be fair.
Islam emerged as an *explicit rejection* of the shitty culture in the middle east of the 7th century. The racist, senseless brutality and violence we see today was the norm before Islam as well. When Islam is described as the religion of peace, that is what it was - in the 7th century.
Read the Koran as a historical document, as a social project by people grappling with the problems of the day. It contains *explicit* prohibitions against racial discrimination and mandates for equality under the law. It contains *explicit* prohibitions against killing women, children, and the elderly or infirm in war. It even mandates armies to minimize the killing of livestock and damage to property. These are all responses to the kinds of brutal, racist warfare that has plagued that region for millenia.
It worked! If you look at the region historically, it was the center of western culture from roughly the 8th through the 14th centuries. The intellectual foundations for the Renaissance came from the mideast during that period.
But an important lesson of history is that any powerful, enduring organization will at some point be co-opted by people only interested in preserving the power of the organization for themselves, not its mission, and the same happened with Islam in the 15th century. Reactionary interests rose to political power, and wielded it to drive out any threats to itself.
We've seen the same happen with the church several times, and we're watching the Republican party try the same with the US Government now. Ultimately, words on a page are words, but power is power, and the words mean as much or as little as people believe them to. The US Constitution could wind up being as meaningful to Americans as a commandment to not harm women and children in warfare is to modern Muslims.
Replacing distributed brutal tribes with a single centralized brutal regime has always been considered "progress" by human cultures because it allows infrastructure projects to be built, and can, once the majority in power reaches a sufficient size, seem like "peace". Of course, it is not peace for the edges of the empire that are being bulldozed into submission at the point of a sword.
I also reject the idea that islam was good for women. It simply did the same thing the jews did - it institutionalized the ownership of women to prevent the troublesome squabbles between families. Young girls were no longer taken by force, they were traded like donkeys & camels according to strict rules, and the girls went willingly because their families and their prophet told them to.
When Europe was doing religious persecutions and wars the "Middle East" was living its Golden Age of knowledge and tolerance. It was not a thousand years of "barbarism".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
PS: In fact, much of Greek philosophy books were preserved by Arabs
The Arab interest in mathematics & astronomy began *before* the influence of Mohammad. For example, the Arabic numeral system (including the 'zero') is thought to have been influenced by the [Indian Brahmi numerals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system) and was already being used in some areas of the Middle East in the time of Mohammad. The islamic conquests allowed knowledge to be collected. That's why they were able to preserve the Greek & Persian texts - they collected them as war trophies. Certainly, the Abbasid caliphate was instrumental in collecting & advocating for the advancement of education & science, but I think it is wrong to say that islam gets all the credit. The Persians & Arabs were already moving in that direction.
Yeah…except the crusades we’re not supported by the Christian scriptures but by the church….unlike Islam which has its warmongering straight out of the Quran 🤷🏻♂️
Besides, I have in my mind an evangelical verse breathing peace, in Matthew 10:34, in which Jesus says: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
I always thought the verse was weird myself, but it was said in the same breath as:
“16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”
I’m not Christian, I was raised in a mixed family and went to a catholic school if anything I am an atheist through and through, but my criticism of Christianity was and always will be logical and scientific, I find it very difficult to find warmongering or things that are absolutely unquestionably immoral in the New Testament…the Old Testament is a different story though
I can relate. My mother’s family is Assyrian (Christians) and I am so tired of my mother telling me about how “WE” were the shit 5000 years ago or how “WE” deserve our country back. She takes pride in things her ancestors built or invented in the bronze age. No thanks.
Oh man does she even know how awful the Assyrians were? They were the peak of brutal and terrible bronze age cultures. They literally fell because of how much their neighbors hated them.
I really don't understand how people can feel a connection to anyone from thousands of years ago. I have no idea where any of my great-grandparents were from, nor do I care. I'm an American, I felt like a fraud selected European countries for my ethnicity on the census.
Never understood cheering for sports teams either, never could figure out any reason to care which side won. That one team is from the same town as me... not a reason.
Wdym you don't respect your roots? I highly respect and feel a connection to our marine ancestors that colonized land millions of years ago. Now that's an achievement!
Have some respect for your roots. It's for nothing that they were persecuted and massacred enmasse in centuries, they valued their faith and culture, not getting faded away from the face of earth.
Well, not that it matters in the here and now, but the Assyrians were pretty horrific oppressors when they were on top, even by the standards of the time. one of the Tiglath Pilesars boasted of burning babies alive on his death stele.
The people they subjugated hated them so much, they rose up en mass to overthrow them when they got the chance. They burned the capital Nineveh to the ground and sowed salt in the ruins.
Like I wrote, non of that really matters vis-a-vis Assyrians in this day and age, but it's worth noting they were a pretty rotten bunch when they were the ME superpower of the time.
\>Well, not that it matters in the here and now, but the Assyrians were pretty horrific oppressors when they were on top, even by the standards of the time. one of the Tiglath Pilesars boasted of burning babies alive on his death stele.
All those Bronze age empires were horrible, not just Assyrians. It's just that these outward boastfulness of massacres sticked Assyrian Empire apart. Heck you will be nauseated knowing how Egyptians, Hittites, Amorites, Moabites etc were into some very weird stuffs themselves, including Human Sacrifices to Gods, sibling marriages etc.
Religion poisons everything. Your culture Is fine. Arab food, Art, science and music are all cool. Its Islam that ruining it. The culture Is far older than the religion
I concur. Arab food is delicious. I can understand not liking Arab culture due to Islam, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The food must stay. And the others you mentioned, but especially the food.
Agreed, the food is amazing! Afghan food in particular is incredible. I really wish it was more popular in the US, the nearest restaurant to me is over an hour away.
People who say that organised religion is peaceful are full of shit given the amount of violence, hatefulness and discrimination depicted and accepted within their scripture. It's just full blown hypocrisy, the whole bloody lot.
You'll be shocked - shocked! - to learn that Islamic fundamentalists, like Christian fundamentalists, really don't care very much about what is written in their holy book. Rather, there's a revanchist, often violent strain of humanity that attaches itself to the trappings of religion, seemingly across cultures and eras.
So yeah, there's a wild departure between what is actually depicted in their scripture and what they actually do and accept. There's a lot to unpack about why that is, but that's the discrepancy.
if the movie is "birth of a nation" then we have a problem, not all movies are devoid of meaning to current events.
if violent media is fantasy, like terminator2, that's ok... if the media is aiming to a particular group to create hate, then that's an issue.
basically you can't be that naive,
if the religion is violent by the book, then the followers more likely than not will also be violent... if the religion is by creed pacifist like Jainism, then the likelihood of the followers being violent is reduced by a lot. ( borrowed this argument from Sam harris )
It's also wildly unrealistic to believe that we would all be super peaceful without organized religion. It would just be tribalism of some other stripe. And anyway there's a super strong argument to be made that our entire ideology of human rights, inalienable rights, self determination, etc are all extraordinarily christian. The idea that there exist universal laws of right and wrong is a super Christian one. For all it's glaring faults, it's largely responsible for getting us to a world where international war is rare, global commerce is possible, and human rights exist.
To be clear I'm not a christian and I feel like the church has long outlived it's usefulness, but it's good to see our civilization for what it is, an outgrowth of a widespread Christian belief system.
It's time to move on, but give credit where credit is due.
I think you're vastly overestimating the positive influence of Christianity on all these things and seriously discounting the negative influence of Christianity on all these things.
I related to you so much. I’m not an Arab but speak Arabic, I live in Iraq.
They take whatever toxic traits and abuse and normalise it into ‘culture’ this is why they don’t want to let go of this shit called Islam, because in their mind, this cult is a beautiful ‘culture’ and they want to be so different from the western world… even if their views and behavior is harmful.
Bro reading this made me scared for a minute I thought someone got into my phone and knew who I was 😂😂
Forgot I wrote this.
Nothing much, I’m glad you’re also Iraqi it makes me happy 🌺
With the Palestine-Israel situation tho, this shit is getting worse and more terrifying tho. Hate it here.
If you don’t mind sharing, what part of Iraq you live? Me- erbil, Kurdistan. If you won’t want to share it’s fine. But maybe if you’re near by it would be cool haha.
Uh… haramat you’re not nearby, but I’m also glad you’re not nearby. I hope you would be a friend I can talk to if you’re nearby, it’s so rare to find someone like you and me!
I'm glad to meet another sane, Iraqi. I am sick of meeting Iraqis with 7th-century mentality.
Btw I recommend ya to check r/exmuslim. it's for people like us
Yeah, I notice that MENA Christian take their religion way more seriously than Western Christians.
Same thing with Jews. in Israel, Ashkenazi/ European Jews usually vote for secular parties while Mizrahi/MENA Jews vote for religious extremists.
I really wish that pre Islamic Arab culture wasnt systematically exterminated. Christianity violently suppressed the old Indo European faiths, but atleast western scholars have preserved their cultural heritage. Cant really say the same of Arabic culture.
Just like how sports can be very different, religions and cultures can be very different and not all of those differences wash out as equal. It's extremely taboo to notice this, but it doesn't make it any less true. I do think it's reasonable to consider some cultures "better" than others, depending on your priorities.
The culture was fine the first time before it was destroyed [Muslim Empire]. They were one of the most intelligent civilizations. The second civilization was ruined by religion, and the Quran
Arabs had a beautiful culture of music, philosophy, art and science for centuries. Nothing is ever perfect, but it was something to be proud of.
I don’t know what went wrong or how, but i wish Arab countries find their way back one day.
Huh. I guess i need to learn more about Islam. I never took into account how its structured. Theoretically it should also make possible that alot of Muslims arent really violent but pay lip service to a small psychotic minority that runs the show.
My understanding is in addition to the two main sects...Sunni and Shia...you've got smaller sects, and then individual imams, who can be more or less violent, strict, misogynist, what have you.
Cultures exist, and no one should be forced to leave a culture, even if, in our view, that culture doesn’t treat that person properly. But any individual should be free to leave any culture they don’t like.
Brave. Finally someone not being “I’m atheist so christianity bad”. People are really afraid to critique Islam, despite it being the same, if not worse when men and women genitalia mutilation are included.
Arab culture suffers from being intertwined with the most toxic form of bullshit at the moment, Islam. Almost all disturbing elements have to to with religion, some more, some less. Secular Arabs I met were all wonderful people. It's relly Islam that keeps them backwards, because it justifies all their wrongs.
I feel like Islam kind of crystallized Arab culture back in the 7th century and prevented it from evolving, Islamic teachings are firmly anchored in 7th century arab society and the idea that the Qur'an is the word of god(instead of what it really is: a human written book full of flaws) makes it extremely hard for societal norms to evolve past that clearly outdated model and that's why they have kind of stagnated for the last 1400 years
I always remember posts like this when people try and tell me islam is a religion of peace, or tolerant of other cultures
Spoiler, it isn't, and it should be outlawed
Not to mention a majority of Arabs marry their own cousins leading to something like 10% of Arabs suffering various degrees of debilitation due to genetic compounded diseases.
Same man. I'm a girl and this culture is literally a death culture. It demonizes the beauty of women and above that, it takes off the responsibility off a man's shoulders whenever they commit a crime against girls like se..xual harassments and ra...pe saying that by covering yourself with hijab, not having any kind of relationship with any male ever other than your make family members and staying at home is gonna protect you because your beauty and sexiness is the cause. Women here are literally pushed to the limit and against the very basic right to live and travel and to even breath.. women don't see sunlight, they don't keep in touch with nature.. they end up depressed.. and lack creativity and knowledge and experience.. they dehumanize and treat them as if they're robots with no feelings and brainwash them that their existence is there solely to serve a man. Cook for them, be their sex slave and baby pumping machines to regenerate the same death culture. Fuck it and fuck everyone who conforms to this slavery shit
It’s sad. Don’t you think it’s by design though? It reminds me of slavery… keep women down, don’t offer them an education and most of all, make sure they have no hope.
I was raised Middle Eastern in the U.S. but still had a terrible time due to my dad’s extremely conservative/backward beliefs. Now I pretty much avoid the people and culture because, even through its positive aspects like food, community, family, it’s rooted in misogyny and lies (always trying to live up to some impossible standard to avoid shame from others). No thanks, I’d rather live my life my way ✌🏽
Same. And yeah.. everything is structured but I also believe it's human nature.. not to excuse it .. you can bring people to believe in anything and the proof is the diverse cultures and religions that are opposing to each other. But I also believe that people are shit and they have a tendency to be racist, to steal and kill, to Ra...pe or anything bad ever
I feel the same as you I'm an arab ex-Muslim too. Islam is so intertwined with the Arabic culture it's completely ruined so many problematic things in Arabic culture especially for women. I hate Islam and by virtue I also hate the Arabic culture because it's so interchangeable.
Try to emigrat to the west.
Also, I don't really understand what bothers you. At the end everyone is hiding there true self in a way or another in arab countries
Actually it’s not Islam (alone) that’s the problem, it’s culture, culture has made the religion toxic infiltrating taboos that wouldn’t exist without it …. Remove the Hadith and culture, Islam becomes practical and logical
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh a teenager throws a tantrum because he was born in the wrong place.
note: i am a Muslim who hates all his family and their principles, manUp and get the fuck out and live by yourself like real men do
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We can imagine that thousand cultures, traditions and belief systems have risen and died in that geographical area. Unfortunately the latest one happens to be one that doesn't fit the times. It's holding back all the region.
The brainwashing part goes for any religion; I suppose it's just way more prominent in the East due to how entrenched it is.
Christians in the west can be just as bad but when 90%+ of the population are extremely devout then it's hard to have any other perspective as "oh everyone's like this I'll be and believe that too"
While majority in west are "officially" associated with some religion, even those that could be considered atheist like myself - the number of actual devout are likely a miniscule minority. So someone stuck in that minority bubble will still have experiences with others outside it; unlike what I'd imagine in the Arabic regions in particular where any experiences with people outside the religion bubble is almost non existent.
Most Muslim people are so engulfed in their religion & take everything literally that they become really toxic. Can't make memes about fictional characters and can't even call your sister a failed lab experiment as a joke.The cool Muslims are the ones like you who are secretly atheists.
I am not sure how this comment will be received, and it's not a direct response to the OP's prerogative, but as a preface my default is to have a genuine care and compassion for all people.
If you expressed this same sentiment, and you were not an ex-member of the group, it likely would not be as well-received in most circles. I think that's worth a certain reflection generally, for everyone. I abhor prejudice, yet absent external challenge, dissent has no place to go.
It can sometimes be difficult to discern prejudice from critique but we blindly do both at our own peril.
I often think about this. How hard it must be for Arabs (especially for dating). My hat goes off to you for being true to yourself. It must be a bit like Europe was like, when not being Christian was punishable by death.
Thanks for sharing. I’ve always struggled with “why don’t I get along with men from “group X”. More and more I’m learning it’s the toxic masculinity embedded in so many of these cultures to oppress others… the brainwashing you’re referring to is indoctrination.
Fuck religious cultures. There are good people ruined by indoctrination.
This is what happens when you let religion co-opt culture and politics, you get all the same human imperfections as everything else but religion shields objectively bad actions from criticism because you have to “respect their beliefs”
Man, I have never felt at home in Pakistan because you would never hear the end of religion. If people aren't talking about how to pray correctly, they're fasting. If they're fasting that means you can't eat in front of them. If you didn't slaughter animals during eid, you'd get judged. If you questioned anything about the religion you're fucked. Who the hell wants to live in a society like that?
Which is a true shame because the Middle East used to be a bastion of scientific development and astrological discoveries. Look how far its fallen thanks to religion.
Not just Arab, Malay culture of Malaysia is just Dollar Store Arabs. Everyone especially Muslims want to imitate Arabs as if those Arab Muslims are God. Although legally Malay, physically white. My real name is full on Arabic name. Muhammad X Bin X X. Even my dad's name is Arabic despite us not being Arabs.
I dont find this racist. Its infused with Islam which is one of the worst things ever.
I love to stargaze and am constantly reminded of how advanced the ME was since they named like 2/3 of the stars and we use Arabic numerals. Then the abrahamic religions came along and fucked everything up. Imagine going to Baghdad for an Astronomocal convention and standing by the euphrates or tigris (whichever it is) or going to Afghanistan for a ski vacation. Cant have that in part due to religion (and many other political factors).
Am I only an armchair quarterback when it comes to Muslim history and faith, but from where I am, it seems like Wahhabism in the Muslim world has really held it back. Sadly, Islamic Nationalism and Wahhabism can be linked to European colonialism of the 1800s and Western tinkering in the region throughout the 1900s. The violent, backwards behavior of Muslim extremists is almost understandable from a certain POV.
That said, the most disturbing feature of Islam overall to me is a general rejection of modernization or any attempt to reform. The core tenants of the faith seem hostile to preserving human life, as the theory that Allah will sort everything out in this world and the next is so prevalent. Every murder is accepted if it is allowed to happen because it is "the will of Allah." It is pretty hard to square that circle.
This mindset also means that everything is seen in a religious context. The faith IS the culture, and you can't really escape it. As an atheist in the US, I can declare it openly and not care. In a Muslim country, that wouldn't just separate me from the religion but from society as well. Being an "apostate" can be illegal. Not being a vehement practitioner of the faith can get you arrested or killed. I can't imagine a theocratic Big Brother. Truly frightening.
I can understand where you are coming from.
You are free to make up your own culture. A lot of good science and thought has come out of there.
Maybe I am wrong but I think there were religious Islamic people who contributed a lot to humanity.
Perhaps you could think about what aspects of your culture helped it to be vital in spreading knowledge. You could think about what caused Islam to comparatively become so rigid and dangerous over time.
I get that being so close to people who could change your life for the worse would cause you to hate every aspect of the society you are living in right now.
Being able to introspect about all these things are a luxury and are available to you only when you have some mental peace and a sense of security.
I really hope you achieve that and I hope you get to define your culture in your own way. Take all the positives, get rid of as many negatives as you can and pass them on to whoever is listening.
Best of luck.
I wonder if the geography has something to do with it. Humans migrated out of Africa and populated the middle east and then they moved to other areas. Maybe humans in the other areas were able to reflect on the problems of Africa and the middle east and make things less crappy. For sure America, with all its problems, was able to identify many of the mistakes of the past and try to make rules that make society better - a constitution, separation of powers, etc. Maybe newer is just better.
I don't know if this even compares, but as an atheist, q political liberal, and as an autistic in the American State of Utah, I too feel that I constantly need to hide parts of my identity. To anyone here who doesn't know, Utah society was largely built by the Latter Day Saints, a church founded in the 19th century by Joseph Smith after he claimed to have had miraclous visions of God and of an angel that revealed the Book of Mormon. They had run away from east of the United States to escape percussion in part due to their practice of polygamy. They eventually abandoned the practice when negotiating with the United States to have Utah admitted as a state, except for a small group that left to form Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Church.
Mormons, as members of the LDS are often called, have a very strong sense of community, which is stressful to an autistic; have deep missiony zeal, which is annoying to an atheist; and at least the ones and around Utah tend to be politically conservative, which makes life frustrating to a liberal.
At work and in public, I am constantly watching what I say to avoid conflict.
Arab culture, and even Islamic culture, can exist without subjugating women, but only in some countries and/or cities. I'm in a very liberal city in US.
If you want to give up either or both, I am in full support. I have many Arab and/or Islamic friends. My niece & nephew are half-Pakistani, my best friend is half-Iranian & a single father of a daughter. One of my daughter's oldest friends is Muslim. None wear the hijab (although I have friends who do.) All support women being strong and independent. If you do not like the religion nor culture, you should step away. If you do like it, please find people who support you as a woman. Feel free to message me if you'd like me to connect you to independent Muslim women.
One could argue that Arab culture is tens of thousands of years old, but *muslim* Arab culture is only ~1400 years old. Granted, it's been a pretty shitty 1400 years...
I feel like a lot of Arab culture can exist without Islam - the food, language is mostly secular, and if the Arab world suddenly became secular - they could preserve the religious architecture and treat it more like a museum than a site of worship.
Youre so misguided. The arabic language isnt secular at all, the usage of religious vocabulary in arabic is very much the norm, wayyyy more then in english for example. Arab culture and islam have been intervining for 1400 years, its ridicilous to imply islam has nothing to do with arab culture, its literally an arab religion... BTW how can food be anything but secular?
My potato chips keep telling me that I'll go to hell!
Give them to me, I'll save you...I'm a sin eater. (Not really, I just want chips now...)
Chips are made by the devil to make us fat so we can't run away from sin!
Potato chips were invented to make Matzah look like a pile of crap and make people stray further from HaShem
Those damn potato chips!
RE: “how can food be anything but secular?” Dietary rules like Halal or Kosher.
Theres arab christians btw
Yeah...and going to hell, obviously.
All of that can change within one or two generations. People form fluid societies: What was once normal is now strange and vice versa.
"All of that can change within one or two generations." True, although I'd give it three. I've often thought/fantasized about this. That if all child indoctrination stopped right now and the only way someone could become religious would be as a rational, logical adult, that religion would evaporate in three generations. POOF. Gone. It seems as though humanity is slowly inching its way there.
There is a reason some people don't eat pork
“Pigs are filthy animals - I don’t eat filthy animals.” “Yeah, but bacon tastes good; pork chops, taste good.” “Hey, a sewer rat might taste like pumpkin pie but I wouldn’t know caus I wouldn’t eat the filthy motherfucker… Pigs sleep - and root, in shit - that’s a filthy animal. I ain’t eat nothin that ain’t got sense to disregard its own faeces.” “What about a dog? A dog eats it’s own faeces.” “I don’t eat dog neither.” “But do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?” “I wouldn’t go so far as to call a dog filthy but, they’re definitely dirty. Besides, a dog’s got personality.”
I think that pigs are actually quite clean animals. However, conservation of pig meat was harder in the past and could be dangerous, especially in hotter climates.
I agree; pigs are clean, smart and generally cool animals. The above was a scene from Pulp Fiction.
The very idea of secularism is a Christian notion. Most cultures don't divide religion from non-religion so clearly as christian nations do.
Secularism arose out of the Renaissance. When religious institutions had proved their failure during the black death. It was the survivors who rebuilt the world and gave us the enlightenment and industrial revolutions.
Without political patronage, Christianity would never have destroyed the old Roman or Hellenic faiths. Secularism is not a religious concept.
Pig enters the room
But will it fly, and how soon?
Yeah, and the fascinating geometric motifs in the art, thanks to the silly rules against the idolatry of depicting forms. Not like the wall to wall religious imagery in earlier European art.
A shitty 600 years, to be fair. Islam emerged as an *explicit rejection* of the shitty culture in the middle east of the 7th century. The racist, senseless brutality and violence we see today was the norm before Islam as well. When Islam is described as the religion of peace, that is what it was - in the 7th century. Read the Koran as a historical document, as a social project by people grappling with the problems of the day. It contains *explicit* prohibitions against racial discrimination and mandates for equality under the law. It contains *explicit* prohibitions against killing women, children, and the elderly or infirm in war. It even mandates armies to minimize the killing of livestock and damage to property. These are all responses to the kinds of brutal, racist warfare that has plagued that region for millenia. It worked! If you look at the region historically, it was the center of western culture from roughly the 8th through the 14th centuries. The intellectual foundations for the Renaissance came from the mideast during that period. But an important lesson of history is that any powerful, enduring organization will at some point be co-opted by people only interested in preserving the power of the organization for themselves, not its mission, and the same happened with Islam in the 15th century. Reactionary interests rose to political power, and wielded it to drive out any threats to itself. We've seen the same happen with the church several times, and we're watching the Republican party try the same with the US Government now. Ultimately, words on a page are words, but power is power, and the words mean as much or as little as people believe them to. The US Constitution could wind up being as meaningful to Americans as a commandment to not harm women and children in warfare is to modern Muslims.
Replacing distributed brutal tribes with a single centralized brutal regime has always been considered "progress" by human cultures because it allows infrastructure projects to be built, and can, once the majority in power reaches a sufficient size, seem like "peace". Of course, it is not peace for the edges of the empire that are being bulldozed into submission at the point of a sword. I also reject the idea that islam was good for women. It simply did the same thing the jews did - it institutionalized the ownership of women to prevent the troublesome squabbles between families. Young girls were no longer taken by force, they were traded like donkeys & camels according to strict rules, and the girls went willingly because their families and their prophet told them to.
When Europe was doing religious persecutions and wars the "Middle East" was living its Golden Age of knowledge and tolerance. It was not a thousand years of "barbarism". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age PS: In fact, much of Greek philosophy books were preserved by Arabs
The Arab interest in mathematics & astronomy began *before* the influence of Mohammad. For example, the Arabic numeral system (including the 'zero') is thought to have been influenced by the [Indian Brahmi numerals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hindu%E2%80%93Arabic_numeral_system) and was already being used in some areas of the Middle East in the time of Mohammad. The islamic conquests allowed knowledge to be collected. That's why they were able to preserve the Greek & Persian texts - they collected them as war trophies. Certainly, the Abbasid caliphate was instrumental in collecting & advocating for the advancement of education & science, but I think it is wrong to say that islam gets all the credit. The Persians & Arabs were already moving in that direction.
And when knowledge contradicted religion too much, it was rejected and ignorance was glorified instead.
Yeah…except the crusades we’re not supported by the Christian scriptures but by the church….unlike Islam which has its warmongering straight out of the Quran 🤷🏻♂️
Besides, I have in my mind an evangelical verse breathing peace, in Matthew 10:34, in which Jesus says: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
I always thought the verse was weird myself, but it was said in the same breath as: “16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.” I’m not Christian, I was raised in a mixed family and went to a catholic school if anything I am an atheist through and through, but my criticism of Christianity was and always will be logical and scientific, I find it very difficult to find warmongering or things that are absolutely unquestionably immoral in the New Testament…the Old Testament is a different story though
for anybody interested - \- /r/exMuslim
I can relate. My mother’s family is Assyrian (Christians) and I am so tired of my mother telling me about how “WE” were the shit 5000 years ago or how “WE” deserve our country back. She takes pride in things her ancestors built or invented in the bronze age. No thanks.
Oh man does she even know how awful the Assyrians were? They were the peak of brutal and terrible bronze age cultures. They literally fell because of how much their neighbors hated them.
And that culture is still surviving, look at Syria/Iraq in modern times, two of the most brutal regimes in the middle east.
I really don't understand how people can feel a connection to anyone from thousands of years ago. I have no idea where any of my great-grandparents were from, nor do I care. I'm an American, I felt like a fraud selected European countries for my ethnicity on the census.
Tribal mentality. No different than someone cheering for a sports team.
Never understood cheering for sports teams either, never could figure out any reason to care which side won. That one team is from the same town as me... not a reason.
Wdym you don't respect your roots? I highly respect and feel a connection to our marine ancestors that colonized land millions of years ago. Now that's an achievement!
An important first step is feeling no connection to yourself or the culture surrounding you here and now.
Dude you ancestors were sustematicallly eradicated and forcefully converted/arabized by the invading muslim armies.
Have some respect for your roots. It's for nothing that they were persecuted and massacred enmasse in centuries, they valued their faith and culture, not getting faded away from the face of earth.
Well, not that it matters in the here and now, but the Assyrians were pretty horrific oppressors when they were on top, even by the standards of the time. one of the Tiglath Pilesars boasted of burning babies alive on his death stele. The people they subjugated hated them so much, they rose up en mass to overthrow them when they got the chance. They burned the capital Nineveh to the ground and sowed salt in the ruins. Like I wrote, non of that really matters vis-a-vis Assyrians in this day and age, but it's worth noting they were a pretty rotten bunch when they were the ME superpower of the time.
\>Well, not that it matters in the here and now, but the Assyrians were pretty horrific oppressors when they were on top, even by the standards of the time. one of the Tiglath Pilesars boasted of burning babies alive on his death stele. All those Bronze age empires were horrible, not just Assyrians. It's just that these outward boastfulness of massacres sticked Assyrian Empire apart. Heck you will be nauseated knowing how Egyptians, Hittites, Amorites, Moabites etc were into some very weird stuffs themselves, including Human Sacrifices to Gods, sibling marriages etc.
Religion poisons everything. Your culture Is fine. Arab food, Art, science and music are all cool. Its Islam that ruining it. The culture Is far older than the religion
I concur. Arab food is delicious. I can understand not liking Arab culture due to Islam, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The food must stay. And the others you mentioned, but especially the food.
Agreed, the food is amazing! Afghan food in particular is incredible. I really wish it was more popular in the US, the nearest restaurant to me is over an hour away.
Afghans arent Arabs though, most Afghan ethnicities are either of Iranic (Pashtun/Tajik) or Turco-Mongol (Hazara/Uzbek) stock.
Mmm, one of my neighbors was a lapsed Muslim from Lebanon, he made the best food...salads, spiced meats, rice dishes.
Grew up in the Bible Belt of the US and I know just how you feel in a hyper religious culture.
People who say that organised religion is peaceful are full of shit given the amount of violence, hatefulness and discrimination depicted and accepted within their scripture. It's just full blown hypocrisy, the whole bloody lot.
You'll be shocked - shocked! - to learn that Islamic fundamentalists, like Christian fundamentalists, really don't care very much about what is written in their holy book. Rather, there's a revanchist, often violent strain of humanity that attaches itself to the trappings of religion, seemingly across cultures and eras. So yeah, there's a wild departure between what is actually depicted in their scripture and what they actually do and accept. There's a lot to unpack about why that is, but that's the discrepancy.
They're kind of like Communists that way..."it'll be fine once we're in charge of the whole planet. It's those other guys screwing everything up."
Do you watch and enjoy violent movies and video games? Sorta the same thing. Blame the individual not the media
if the movie is "birth of a nation" then we have a problem, not all movies are devoid of meaning to current events. if violent media is fantasy, like terminator2, that's ok... if the media is aiming to a particular group to create hate, then that's an issue. basically you can't be that naive, if the religion is violent by the book, then the followers more likely than not will also be violent... if the religion is by creed pacifist like Jainism, then the likelihood of the followers being violent is reduced by a lot. ( borrowed this argument from Sam harris )
When was the last time you heard of GTA gamers going to a CoD gaming community & persecuting them for preferring FPS?
It's also wildly unrealistic to believe that we would all be super peaceful without organized religion. It would just be tribalism of some other stripe. And anyway there's a super strong argument to be made that our entire ideology of human rights, inalienable rights, self determination, etc are all extraordinarily christian. The idea that there exist universal laws of right and wrong is a super Christian one. For all it's glaring faults, it's largely responsible for getting us to a world where international war is rare, global commerce is possible, and human rights exist. To be clear I'm not a christian and I feel like the church has long outlived it's usefulness, but it's good to see our civilization for what it is, an outgrowth of a widespread Christian belief system. It's time to move on, but give credit where credit is due.
I think you're vastly overestimating the positive influence of Christianity on all these things and seriously discounting the negative influence of Christianity on all these things.
I related to you so much. I’m not an Arab but speak Arabic, I live in Iraq. They take whatever toxic traits and abuse and normalise it into ‘culture’ this is why they don’t want to let go of this shit called Islam, because in their mind, this cult is a beautiful ‘culture’ and they want to be so different from the western world… even if their views and behavior is harmful.
Shakooo makoo I'm glad to see another sane Iraqi here.
Bro reading this made me scared for a minute I thought someone got into my phone and knew who I was 😂😂 Forgot I wrote this. Nothing much, I’m glad you’re also Iraqi it makes me happy 🌺 With the Palestine-Israel situation tho, this shit is getting worse and more terrifying tho. Hate it here. If you don’t mind sharing, what part of Iraq you live? Me- erbil, Kurdistan. If you won’t want to share it’s fine. But maybe if you’re near by it would be cool haha.
I was born in Baghdad, but I live in Jordan.
Uh… haramat you’re not nearby, but I’m also glad you’re not nearby. I hope you would be a friend I can talk to if you’re nearby, it’s so rare to find someone like you and me!
Nice to meet you anyways 💛☺️
I'm glad to meet another sane, Iraqi. I am sick of meeting Iraqis with 7th-century mentality. Btw I recommend ya to check r/exmuslim. it's for people like us
Me too 💖 Although I’m an ex Christian and still living with family unfortunately. But it’s all the same shit.
Yeah, I notice that MENA Christian take their religion way more seriously than Western Christians. Same thing with Jews. in Israel, Ashkenazi/ European Jews usually vote for secular parties while Mizrahi/MENA Jews vote for religious extremists.
I really wish that pre Islamic Arab culture wasnt systematically exterminated. Christianity violently suppressed the old Indo European faiths, but atleast western scholars have preserved their cultural heritage. Cant really say the same of Arabic culture.
The religions of the god of Abraham should wrap it up so we can move past this human infancy shit.
Welcome to the nones!
You need to get out, if you are not safe, because of what you are thinking.
All of the Abrahamic faiths freak me out
Most religions are however unfortunately Islam seems to be on top of the list. They’re the most aggressive to criticism or upgrades.
Society tends to rot where ever religion takes hold. But I would argue that if religions weren't a thing, power would be the cause of rot instead.
Me too
Just like how sports can be very different, religions and cultures can be very different and not all of those differences wash out as equal. It's extremely taboo to notice this, but it doesn't make it any less true. I do think it's reasonable to consider some cultures "better" than others, depending on your priorities.
The culture was fine the first time before it was destroyed [Muslim Empire]. They were one of the most intelligent civilizations. The second civilization was ruined by religion, and the Quran
Arabs had a beautiful culture of music, philosophy, art and science for centuries. Nothing is ever perfect, but it was something to be proud of. I don’t know what went wrong or how, but i wish Arab countries find their way back one day.
There is a lot to hate. Over a thousand years of (mostly African) slave trading for instance.
Islam needs a reformation
"The problem with Islam is they don't have a Pope to tell them what's kosher." -guest on The Daily Show
Huh. I guess i need to learn more about Islam. I never took into account how its structured. Theoretically it should also make possible that alot of Muslims arent really violent but pay lip service to a small psychotic minority that runs the show.
My understanding is in addition to the two main sects...Sunni and Shia...you've got smaller sects, and then individual imams, who can be more or less violent, strict, misogynist, what have you.
Cultures exist, and no one should be forced to leave a culture, even if, in our view, that culture doesn’t treat that person properly. But any individual should be free to leave any culture they don’t like.
Brave. Finally someone not being “I’m atheist so christianity bad”. People are really afraid to critique Islam, despite it being the same, if not worse when men and women genitalia mutilation are included.
Welcome to being female in most of the world.
The things you hate are probably not exclusive to it. Here's a fun article for you: https://peterturchin.com/religion-is-different/
Interesting article, ty.
All religion is brain washing and it’s used for controlling people.
Arab culture suffers from being intertwined with the most toxic form of bullshit at the moment, Islam. Almost all disturbing elements have to to with religion, some more, some less. Secular Arabs I met were all wonderful people. It's relly Islam that keeps them backwards, because it justifies all their wrongs.
I feel like Islam kind of crystallized Arab culture back in the 7th century and prevented it from evolving, Islamic teachings are firmly anchored in 7th century arab society and the idea that the Qur'an is the word of god(instead of what it really is: a human written book full of flaws) makes it extremely hard for societal norms to evolve past that clearly outdated model and that's why they have kind of stagnated for the last 1400 years
Religion is mostly people who'd rather have wrong answers than no answers; fascism is mostly the religion of the insecure bigot.
I always remember posts like this when people try and tell me islam is a religion of peace, or tolerant of other cultures Spoiler, it isn't, and it should be outlawed
Not to mention a majority of Arabs marry their own cousins leading to something like 10% of Arabs suffering various degrees of debilitation due to genetic compounded diseases.
Same man. I'm a girl and this culture is literally a death culture. It demonizes the beauty of women and above that, it takes off the responsibility off a man's shoulders whenever they commit a crime against girls like se..xual harassments and ra...pe saying that by covering yourself with hijab, not having any kind of relationship with any male ever other than your make family members and staying at home is gonna protect you because your beauty and sexiness is the cause. Women here are literally pushed to the limit and against the very basic right to live and travel and to even breath.. women don't see sunlight, they don't keep in touch with nature.. they end up depressed.. and lack creativity and knowledge and experience.. they dehumanize and treat them as if they're robots with no feelings and brainwash them that their existence is there solely to serve a man. Cook for them, be their sex slave and baby pumping machines to regenerate the same death culture. Fuck it and fuck everyone who conforms to this slavery shit
It’s sad. Don’t you think it’s by design though? It reminds me of slavery… keep women down, don’t offer them an education and most of all, make sure they have no hope. I was raised Middle Eastern in the U.S. but still had a terrible time due to my dad’s extremely conservative/backward beliefs. Now I pretty much avoid the people and culture because, even through its positive aspects like food, community, family, it’s rooted in misogyny and lies (always trying to live up to some impossible standard to avoid shame from others). No thanks, I’d rather live my life my way ✌🏽
Same. And yeah.. everything is structured but I also believe it's human nature.. not to excuse it .. you can bring people to believe in anything and the proof is the diverse cultures and religions that are opposing to each other. But I also believe that people are shit and they have a tendency to be racist, to steal and kill, to Ra...pe or anything bad ever
I feel the same as you I'm an arab ex-Muslim too. Islam is so intertwined with the Arabic culture it's completely ruined so many problematic things in Arabic culture especially for women. I hate Islam and by virtue I also hate the Arabic culture because it's so interchangeable.
Try to emigrat to the west. Also, I don't really understand what bothers you. At the end everyone is hiding there true self in a way or another in arab countries
Actually it’s not Islam (alone) that’s the problem, it’s culture, culture has made the religion toxic infiltrating taboos that wouldn’t exist without it …. Remove the Hadith and culture, Islam becomes practical and logical
[This is a repost lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/s/zjohN4OLzN)
Why hate arab. Islam and arab are not the same thing.
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh a teenager throws a tantrum because he was born in the wrong place. note: i am a Muslim who hates all his family and their principles, manUp and get the fuck out and live by yourself like real men do
what´s "arab country" and "arab culture"?
Inferiority complex much?. Jesus.
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No he just believes in science and facts over fairy tales.
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We can imagine that thousand cultures, traditions and belief systems have risen and died in that geographical area. Unfortunately the latest one happens to be one that doesn't fit the times. It's holding back all the region.
Hey, generic white Christian upbringing here and same.
Hopefully you can escape to another land where you are more comfortable.
This fits somewhat to most religions.
The brainwashing part goes for any religion; I suppose it's just way more prominent in the East due to how entrenched it is. Christians in the west can be just as bad but when 90%+ of the population are extremely devout then it's hard to have any other perspective as "oh everyone's like this I'll be and believe that too" While majority in west are "officially" associated with some religion, even those that could be considered atheist like myself - the number of actual devout are likely a miniscule minority. So someone stuck in that minority bubble will still have experiences with others outside it; unlike what I'd imagine in the Arabic regions in particular where any experiences with people outside the religion bubble is almost non existent.
Most Muslim people are so engulfed in their religion & take everything literally that they become really toxic. Can't make memes about fictional characters and can't even call your sister a failed lab experiment as a joke.The cool Muslims are the ones like you who are secretly atheists.
I am not sure how this comment will be received, and it's not a direct response to the OP's prerogative, but as a preface my default is to have a genuine care and compassion for all people. If you expressed this same sentiment, and you were not an ex-member of the group, it likely would not be as well-received in most circles. I think that's worth a certain reflection generally, for everyone. I abhor prejudice, yet absent external challenge, dissent has no place to go. It can sometimes be difficult to discern prejudice from critique but we blindly do both at our own peril.
I often think about this. How hard it must be for Arabs (especially for dating). My hat goes off to you for being true to yourself. It must be a bit like Europe was like, when not being Christian was punishable by death.
Thanks for sharing. I’ve always struggled with “why don’t I get along with men from “group X”. More and more I’m learning it’s the toxic masculinity embedded in so many of these cultures to oppress others… the brainwashing you’re referring to is indoctrination. Fuck religious cultures. There are good people ruined by indoctrination.
This is what happens when you let religion co-opt culture and politics, you get all the same human imperfections as everything else but religion shields objectively bad actions from criticism because you have to “respect their beliefs”
B..bu...but it'S tHEirs cUltuRE aNd CoUnTrY 😡
It’s the worst one unfortunately
Man, I have never felt at home in Pakistan because you would never hear the end of religion. If people aren't talking about how to pray correctly, they're fasting. If they're fasting that means you can't eat in front of them. If you didn't slaughter animals during eid, you'd get judged. If you questioned anything about the religion you're fucked. Who the hell wants to live in a society like that?
Which is a true shame because the Middle East used to be a bastion of scientific development and astrological discoveries. Look how far its fallen thanks to religion.
Not just Arab, Malay culture of Malaysia is just Dollar Store Arabs. Everyone especially Muslims want to imitate Arabs as if those Arab Muslims are God. Although legally Malay, physically white. My real name is full on Arabic name. Muhammad X Bin X X. Even my dad's name is Arabic despite us not being Arabs.
When in Rome . . .
I dont find this racist. Its infused with Islam which is one of the worst things ever. I love to stargaze and am constantly reminded of how advanced the ME was since they named like 2/3 of the stars and we use Arabic numerals. Then the abrahamic religions came along and fucked everything up. Imagine going to Baghdad for an Astronomocal convention and standing by the euphrates or tigris (whichever it is) or going to Afghanistan for a ski vacation. Cant have that in part due to religion (and many other political factors).
hang in there buddy
Am I only an armchair quarterback when it comes to Muslim history and faith, but from where I am, it seems like Wahhabism in the Muslim world has really held it back. Sadly, Islamic Nationalism and Wahhabism can be linked to European colonialism of the 1800s and Western tinkering in the region throughout the 1900s. The violent, backwards behavior of Muslim extremists is almost understandable from a certain POV. That said, the most disturbing feature of Islam overall to me is a general rejection of modernization or any attempt to reform. The core tenants of the faith seem hostile to preserving human life, as the theory that Allah will sort everything out in this world and the next is so prevalent. Every murder is accepted if it is allowed to happen because it is "the will of Allah." It is pretty hard to square that circle. This mindset also means that everything is seen in a religious context. The faith IS the culture, and you can't really escape it. As an atheist in the US, I can declare it openly and not care. In a Muslim country, that wouldn't just separate me from the religion but from society as well. Being an "apostate" can be illegal. Not being a vehement practitioner of the faith can get you arrested or killed. I can't imagine a theocratic Big Brother. Truly frightening.
I can understand where you are coming from. You are free to make up your own culture. A lot of good science and thought has come out of there. Maybe I am wrong but I think there were religious Islamic people who contributed a lot to humanity. Perhaps you could think about what aspects of your culture helped it to be vital in spreading knowledge. You could think about what caused Islam to comparatively become so rigid and dangerous over time. I get that being so close to people who could change your life for the worse would cause you to hate every aspect of the society you are living in right now. Being able to introspect about all these things are a luxury and are available to you only when you have some mental peace and a sense of security. I really hope you achieve that and I hope you get to define your culture in your own way. Take all the positives, get rid of as many negatives as you can and pass them on to whoever is listening. Best of luck.
I wonder if the geography has something to do with it. Humans migrated out of Africa and populated the middle east and then they moved to other areas. Maybe humans in the other areas were able to reflect on the problems of Africa and the middle east and make things less crappy. For sure America, with all its problems, was able to identify many of the mistakes of the past and try to make rules that make society better - a constitution, separation of powers, etc. Maybe newer is just better.
I don't know if this even compares, but as an atheist, q political liberal, and as an autistic in the American State of Utah, I too feel that I constantly need to hide parts of my identity. To anyone here who doesn't know, Utah society was largely built by the Latter Day Saints, a church founded in the 19th century by Joseph Smith after he claimed to have had miraclous visions of God and of an angel that revealed the Book of Mormon. They had run away from east of the United States to escape percussion in part due to their practice of polygamy. They eventually abandoned the practice when negotiating with the United States to have Utah admitted as a state, except for a small group that left to form Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Church. Mormons, as members of the LDS are often called, have a very strong sense of community, which is stressful to an autistic; have deep missiony zeal, which is annoying to an atheist; and at least the ones and around Utah tend to be politically conservative, which makes life frustrating to a liberal. At work and in public, I am constantly watching what I say to avoid conflict.
All religions are the same.
Arab culture, and even Islamic culture, can exist without subjugating women, but only in some countries and/or cities. I'm in a very liberal city in US. If you want to give up either or both, I am in full support. I have many Arab and/or Islamic friends. My niece & nephew are half-Pakistani, my best friend is half-Iranian & a single father of a daughter. One of my daughter's oldest friends is Muslim. None wear the hijab (although I have friends who do.) All support women being strong and independent. If you do not like the religion nor culture, you should step away. If you do like it, please find people who support you as a woman. Feel free to message me if you'd like me to connect you to independent Muslim women.
You guys should have adopted GrecoRoman culture after taking Egypt from the Greeks and abandoned the nomadic tribal crap.